Standing Orders (Public Business)
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:
Message from the Queen
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to deliver to your Lordships a message signed with her own hand.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman)
My Lords, the message is as follows:
“Her Majesty, being desirous that the provision made by Parliament for the financial support of the Royal Household should be considered, asks the Lords Spiritual and Temporal to concur in the adoption of such measures as the House of Commons may propose as suitable”.
Parliament Act 1911: Centenary
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what events they are planning to mark the centenary of the Parliament Act 1911.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Government have no current plans to mark the centenary of the Parliament Act.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
I am sorry that that is the Minister’s Answer. On 18 August 1911, there was an historic Act that changed the face of Parliament. While we are celebrating all this year the Armada, the Battle of Trafalgar, the Battle of Waterloo and the wives of Henry VIII, is it not time that we thought of the magnificent achievements of the last century in health, education and the extension of democracy? Is it not time that somehow this House and this Parliament were able to celebrate the more recent achievements of Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am all in favour of celebrating the achievements of Parliament and indeed of the last century and the many changes that took place. I am not entirely convinced that the Parliament Act was a victory for this House. In fact, it marked the time when we lost considerable power out of the foolishness of our predecessors. However, for those who wish to celebrate, I understand that on Saturday 16 July, from 7 pm to 11 pm, BBC Parliament will show a continuous programme on the causes and effects of the Parliament Act 1911.
Lord Morgan
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in 1911 Lloyd George and many other Liberals were totally opposed to an elected House of Lords on the grounds that it would be much more reactionary on social reform by including, as he put it, people like glorified grocers? Apologies if there are any noble Lords who fulfil that description. Therefore, is not the Government’s proposed legislation on the House of Lords a totally inappropriate sequel to the Parliament Act?
Lord Strathclyde
No, my Lords, I could not possibly agree with that. I am surprised by what the noble Lord says, with all his knowledge about Lloyd George. You have only to read the preamble to the 1911 Act to understand that those who passed it clearly wished and hoped fervently for an elected House in due course.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
On the issue of a preamble—I am sure that its words are constantly in the forefront of the noble Lord’s mind—is it not the case that it is a massive misconception to believe there was any reference in it to an elected House? What was anticipated was a more popular House—a much broader concept than an elected House. Is it not the case that 47 years later, with the Life Peerages Act 1958, that was greatly achieved? It created a balance of gender, geography, ethnicity and background which is so necessary for a reviewing Chamber.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the passing of the 1958 Act was a significant moment and a significant improvement in the selection of Members of this House. I have no idea whether it was influenced in any way by what happened in 1911. All I know is that at the previous general election all three main parties stood on a manifesto in favour of an elected House.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, will the noble Lord give an assurance that the Government are not using the opportunity provided by the centenary to plan on using the Act for that purpose in the event that they were stupid enough to bring forward a Bill in, say, 2013-14?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that was a very complicated formulation. I think the noble Lord was asking whether we would use the Parliament Act to pass a new Parliament Act. I have said before—no doubt I shall be asked this many times—that the Parliament Act is part of a process when the two Houses disagree over a piece of legislation. There is no such legislation before the two Houses and no disagreement. Therefore, at the moment there is no prospect of using the Parliament Act. However, if such a Bill were brought forward, the Parliament Act would be available.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, could we not be constructive on this? Could we not commemorate the Act by unveiling a plaque in this House to commemorate the wonderful achievements, as Members of this House, of the Earl of Oxford and Asquith and Earl Lloyd George?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if my noble friend were to put forward a proposal to the House authorities, I am sure that the appropriate committee would consider it most seriously. However, 1911 was an interesting year for Acts that we rarely think about. The Geneva Convention Act was passed in 1911, the Official Secrets Act was passed in 1911 and the Factory and Workshop (Cotton Cloth Factories) Act was also passed in 1911.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, I do not want to be accused of driving a wedge between the two parties of the coalition, but will the noble Lord confirm what he appeared to say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno? There was, in his Answer, a sense of sadness and nostalgia at the passing of the Parliament Act, which diminished the powers of this House. The noble Lord is a leading member of the Government. Is it the Government’s position that they regret the passing of the Parliament Act?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the Government’s position is that we have no current plans to mark the centenary of the Parliament Act. In answer to the Question from my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno, I wondered whether it was appropriate for this House to celebrate the passing of the Act when it removed so much power from us, which might well have been used exceptionally wisely over the succeeding 100 years.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, after their rip-roaring performances in last week’s debate, would it not be appropriate to commission a production of Gilbert and Sullivan’s “Iolanthe”, with starring performances from my noble friend Lord McNally and the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am sure that another outing by my noble friend Lord McNally would be a show-stopper.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am sure that one of the tasks of the newly appointed Joint Committee will be precisely to look at the workings and applicability of the Parliament Act. Might it not be a good idea, to mark the centenary of the Parliament Act with further tangible House of Lords reform, to ask the Joint Committee also to undertake an immediate report on the Steel Bill, which would help the House and Government decide on the best course of action when the House returns in October? I understand that the noble Lord’s Bill might be debated then.
Lord Strathclyde
I am all for debate on that Bill. We should let the Joint Committee do its work. It has its terms of reference. If it feels the need to look at the Parliament Act, it should do so.
Privacy and Injunctions: Joint Committee
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Lord Strathclyde
That it is expedient that a joint committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider privacy and injunctions, including:
(1) how the statutory and common law on privacy and the use of anonymity injunctions and super-injunctions has operated in practice;
(2) how best to strike the balance between privacy and freedom of expression, in particular how best to determine whether there is a public interest in material concerning people’s private and family life;
(3) issues relating to the enforcement of anonymity injunctions and super-injunctions, including the internet, cross-border jurisdiction within the United Kingdom, parliamentary privilege and the rule of law; and
(4) issues relating to media regulation in this context, including the role of the Press Complaints Commission and the Office of Communications (OFCOM);
and that the committee should report by 29 February 2012.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, under the terms of reference which the Leader of the House has suggested in the paper before us, will the committee take into consideration the matters of entrapment and false representation?
Lord Lucas
My Lords, perhaps I may also ask my noble friend how this committee is to be chosen and, particularly in view of this afternoon’s debate, what opportunities will be made available for Back-Benchers who wish to be members of this committee to put themselves forward?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, on the question from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, the terms of reference are wide and varied. I suggest that the best way for him to make his views known is to write to the chairman with his submission once the committee has been set up. As for my noble friend’s question, the members of the Joint Committee will be chosen in the normal way. The matter will then, of course, be brought to the House, where every name will have to be agreed.
Procedure of the House: Select Committee Report
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral deserves the gratitude of the whole House for the report that he provided as chairman of the Leader’s Group, which has now been turned into a report of the Procedure Committee and has been introduced by the Chairman of Committees.
My noble friend Lord Hunt is entirely correct that, up until now, the only way of leaving the House permanently, if I can put it as indelicately as this, is through death. In recent years, more and more noble Lords have indicated an interest in being able to retire from the House before death. In the course of the past two or three years, my noble friend Lord Steel has championed his Bill, a part of which provides for permanent retirement from this House. My noble friend Lord Hunt has found a way of doing so with honour and dignity and I commend the report to the House.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, quite rightly raised the question of a legal underpinning for what I hope we will agree today. While it is unlikely in the extreme that any Peer who applied for permanent voluntary retirement from the House would ever wish to come back, given the performance that we will go into, there is at least that possibility. Therefore, if a suitable legislative vehicle appears in the next few months or even years, we will take the opportunity to give that legal underpinning.
There are one or two other outstanding matters, such as the power to suspend Members of this House, for which we also wish to find a legal underpinning. We are very aware of these issues. They may not have the highest priority, but we should look at them.
The second issue that has been raised is that of a financial contribution for Peers leaving this House. I was entertained by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who raised the spectacle of numerous Peers waiting for some sort of handout from the taxpayer. He asked for some clarity on this. Let me be utterly clear: there is no prospect of any public money being made available for Peers wishing to retire from the House. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, spoke with great sense when he said that it is a great privilege to be a Member of this House. It is voluntary to attend. A generous but hardly excessive allowance is made available for Peers who come. If you do not come you do not get anything. If you wish to retire, you do not get anything either. That is the way it is going to be. Whatever business cases are made to me or to the Treasury, they will be greeted with a thumbs down. I urge noble Lords who think that their time has come and they are ready to retire to do so quickly and take advantage of this scheme.
My noble friend Lord Elton also raised an important point about Members who attend the House rarely but when they come make an important contribution. They should be much valued Members of this House and should be encouraged not discouraged. I am nervous of the line taken by the noble Baroness the Convenor, although I understand why she took it. She said that some Members of the Cross Benches had not appeared for 10 years. If they have not appeared for 10 years, they should be encouraged perhaps to take up permanent retirement, but they should not be encouraged to stay away by being given a handout from the taxpayer.
A number of other issues were raised that are more properly to do with long-term reform of the House, which we discussed at length last week. The House of Commons is discussing that today. We have another debate to carry on so I will not add any more save to say that I lend my full support to the report and I thank on behalf of the House my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and his committee for their work.
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I think that everything that can be said about this report and a lot not within this report has been said. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, gave a very good summary of it including an example of someone who might well wish to avail themselves of the opportunity for voluntary retirement. The Leader of the House has made the position clear so far as the financial aspects are concerned. Therefore, there is little left for me to say other than that I beg to move.
European Council
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, this may be a convenient moment to repeat the Statement that has been made in another place by the Prime Minister on the meeting of the European Council, which took place this weekend. The Statement is as follows.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on last week's European Council. The main focus of the Council was rightly on Europe's economy. In advancing Britain's national interest I had two objectives. The first was to ensure that Britain did not have to contribute to any new Greek bailout through the European financial stability mechanism. The second was to support efforts to bring stability to the eurozone and growth to Europe as a whole, while fully protecting Britain's position. Let me take each in turn.
First, on the situation in Greece, as I have always said, Britain is not in the euro, and while I am Prime Minister it never will be, so we should not be involved in the euro area's internal arrangements. Only eurozone countries were involved, alongside the IMF, in the first Greek bailout; only eurozone countries have been involved in discussions about potential further bailouts; so it is absolutely right not to use the EU-wide European financial stability mechanism for future support to Greece. That is what I asked for an assurance about at this Council and that is what I got.
This was not a simple matter. Article 122 of the European treaty is being used to provide aid for eurozone countries that have mismanaged their economies. That was not our choice. It was agreed before this Government took office. We have dealt with it for the future because when the new permanent arrangements—replacing the European financial stability mechanism—come in from 2013, we will not be part of them and Article 122 will no longer be used for eurozone bailouts. That was the deal I secured last December but we still had to deal with the prospect of a bailout under the existing arrangements. Under qualified majority voting this required real negotiating effort. This Government have consistently stood up for the interests of British taxpayers and, as a result, the British taxpayer will avoid a potential liability of billions of pounds.
My second objective was to support efforts to bring stability to the eurozone and to promote growth across Europe. While we are not in the eurozone, we would be badly affected by a disorderly outcome to this crisis. Why? First, banks across the world, including the UK, hold government debt of all eurozone countries, including Greece. Secondly, the effect on other countries far more exposed to these debts would have a knock-on effect on us. As Sir Mervyn King made clear when unveiling last week’s financial stability report, the present difficulties in the eurozone are,
“the most serious and immediate risk to the UK financial system”.
It has always been a long-standing principle that the British Government do not comment publicly on market-sensitive issues, and I am not going to depart from that very wise approach. What is important is that a solution be found quickly which is credible in the markets and which will address over time Greece’s fundamental problems and contribute to providing stability in global markets and the world economy.
One element of that solution must, in my view, be using the time we now have to ensure banks and banks’ balance sheets are strong enough to withstand any problems and difficulties and that there is full transparency across the financial system. In the UK we are stepping up efforts to ensure our own banking system is resilient to risks originating from the eurozone. This needs to be done right across Europe, it needs to be done now and it needs to be done properly. I argued for this very strongly at the Council and that is reflected in the language in the communiqué. As a first step that means the current stress tests being conducted in the banking sector must be conducted properly and transparently, unlike last time, and that Europe must implement in full, rather than water down, the new detailed Basel capital and liquidity standards.
A key way in which we can help all economies in Europe—including the eurozone—is to promote sustainable economic growth. The best stimulus available for European economies is to make sure we are promoting competition, deregulation, supply-side reform, innovation, structural changes and also using the EU to advance the cause of free trade, both via Doha and, where appropriate, through bilateral deals.
Following the proposals that Britain set out at the last Council and which many member states now support, I pressed in particular for concrete steps to reduce the burdens on small businesses and micro-enterprises, vital to promoting innovation, jobs and growth. The Council agreed that,
“the regulatory burden on SMEs needs to be further reduced”,
and that the European Commission would now assess the impact of new regulations on micro-enterprises and identify existing regulations from which micro-businesses should be excluded. This mirrors what we are already doing in Britain and it is absolutely the right thing to do. For too long, Council conclusions have focused only on what member states should do, rather than on what the European Commission needs to do itself.
Let me briefly turn to other issues raised at the Council. There were three of significance: migration; the Arab spring; and the accession of Croatia. First, regarding migration, Britain does not participate in the Schengen border area and we are not going to weaken our border controls. As an island, Britain has an important geographical advantage in preventing uncontrolled immigration. At the same time, practical measures to strengthen the external borders of Europe are in Britain's interests too. However, there was a proposal ahead of the Council to suspend the measures in the Dublin regulation that allow us to return asylum seekers to the first safe country they arrive in. Together with Chancellor Merkel, I made sure that these proposals were rejected and they are not referred to in any way in the Council conclusions. We will not have our border controls compromised in this way.
Regarding the Arab Spring, on Libya the Council agreed a declaration confirming its full support for UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973 and the efforts our brave service men and women are undertaking to implement them. There is now real unity of purpose and political will across the European Union on this issue. The wider world is turning against Gaddafi too, recognising that the Transitional National Council is the only credible diplomatic body which can represent the people of Libya right now. The Russians and Chinese have accepted the importance of the Transitional National Council and Premier Wen made this point to me in our meeting this morning. Gaddafi is increasingly isolated. Indeed, today the International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest. Gaddafi is now a fugitive from international justice. The pressure and the time are telling on Gaddafi, and we will not let up until the job is done.
On Syria, the Council condemned in the strongest possible terms the ongoing repression and the unacceptable and shocking violence of the Syrian regime against its own people. At my instigation, we expressed particular, grave concern about what Syrian troops are doing close to the Turkish border. On the Middle East more generally, the Council called on all parties to engage urgently in negotiations and, on the fifth anniversary of his capture, demanded the immediate release of Gilad Shalit.
Finally, let me turn to Croatia. Earlier this month I met Prime Minister Kosor and welcomed her country’s progress towards completing European membership negotiations. At the European Council, we agreed that these negotiations would be concluded at the end of the month. Croatia's success points the way for the rest of the western Balkans, whose aspirations to join the European Union we have always strongly supported.
At this Council, Britain achieved some important objectives. We have protected the interests of the British taxpayer, we have secured agreements to promote and safeguard economic growth and we have protected Britain's borders from uncontrolled migration. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am grateful for what I think was the broad welcome by the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition for the Statement and for what she said about the Dublin protocol migration, which she rightly understood as being extremely important to the United Kingdom. It remains fully intact and in place and it is right that it should not be meddled with.
The noble Baroness then asked a series of questions on overseas countries, particularly in connection with the Arab spring and the Middle East. I shall try to deal with them but, if I do not tackle them all, I shall write to the noble Baroness and make that letter available in the Library.
Post-conflict planning is extremely important and it is important to get it right, as the Foreign Secretary said to another place on 7 June. The United Nations will no doubt take the lead when we are ready, post-Gaddafi, but we are very much involved in the planning and will continue to be, along with many other countries. We very much hope that there will be no gap between the fall of Colonel Gaddafi and the new regime taking over.
On Syria, the noble Baroness is correct in seeing just how difficult a situation this is. We will continue to work with our international partners in Europe and beyond. We will increase pressure until there is, we hope, an end to the violence. All political prisoners should be released and the Syrian population should be allowed to protest peacefully. We have called on the Syrian Government to engage substantively with the legitimate demands of the protesters. It must be right for the Syrian Government to meet their people’s legitimate demands and the violence must stop. The Council condemned in the strongest possible terms the ongoing repression and violence by the Syrian regime against its own citizens and expressed its determination to hold those responsible to account. The EU is applying targeted sanctions to an additional seven individuals and four entities that finance the Syrian regime. The sanctions include three Iranians, in response to clear evidence that Iran is involved in providing equipment and support to help to suppress protests.
The noble Baroness was right to raise the question of the eurozone, which is an extraordinary unfolding story. As I repeated in the Prime Minister’s Statement, it would not be right for us to comment on market-sensitive matters. I understand why the noble Baroness argues that the agreement struck on Article 122 was done with cross-party agreement. Equally, she will know why we must agree to differ on that explanation. If we had been the Government at the time and my right honourable friend had been the Chancellor, I am sure that he would not have signed up to it.
There are clear difficulties in the eurozone and it is in our interest that these should be resolved. We are all committed to a growth agenda to help to stimulate our economies. Equally, it is right that the members of the eurozone should understand the nature of their problem. We believe that, when you have overborrowed, the thing to do is to cut the spending. That might lead to austerity but it is considerably better than the alternative, which is why we are carrying out the same medicine here in the United Kingdom. It must be the fervent wish of us all that the eurozone crisis will be resolved in the coming weeks and Statements will be made to this House either by me or the Treasury Minister.
Lord Newby
My Lords, with regard to the Prime Minister’s objective of supporting efforts to bring stability to the eurozone, the noble Lord the Leader of the House will be aware that over the weekend the Chinese Government made it clear that they are prepared to play a bigger part in supporting the euro and the eurozone. Do the Government support this initiative and did the Prime Minister raise the matter in his discussions with Premier Wen earlier today?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot help my noble friend in his extremely up-to-date question about what the Chinese premier said today to the Prime Minister. The Chinese Government have indicated that they would be willing to support the eurozone, which is very much to be welcomed. The Chinese population has as much of an interest in long-term financial stability in Europe as we have. We very much welcome their interest. I do not wish to overspeculate but I am sure that their help will be extremely useful in stabilising the eurozone.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, is there not a need for more honesty in public utterances? Through our membership of the IMF, we are already contributing to the Greece plan. If we are to have the financial stability and growth that the Prime Minister wants, we need to engage positively so that we stabilise Greece and ensure that contagion does not spread to Spain in particular. Is there not a case for us engaging with Germany and other countries that are designated as rich to ensure that the rich countries help the poor to restabilise the euro? We could all then look forward to increased growth and prosperity.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, of course we are engaging in stability and growth. One of the conclusions of the Council was to do many of the things that the United Kingdom has been practising for some time. They include the encouragement of free markets in goods and the single market in services—particularly the digital economy—and new rules and regulations for micro-enterprises, which I know the noble Lord will be most interested in. It is very difficult to see how countries of the eurozone will get themselves out of the state that they are in by continuing to borrow in ever increasing amounts and not tackling the fundamental problem that underlies their economies, which is that they are spending considerably more than they can afford and that the international markets are growing nervous and are increasingly unwilling to lend to them.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, while it is clear that we do not have the same obligations as members of the eurozone—nor should we—and while it is also clear that the interests of the British taxpayer need to be defended, does the noble Lord not agree that, since the consequences of things going wrong in the eurozone could be very grave for us, as the Governor of the Bank of England reminded us last week, it would be a great help if we could hear rather more about what the Prime Minister is doing to assist in finding a solution and to safeguard this country’s interests in terms of the contingency arrangements being put in place? It is difficult to believe that British interests are maximised by standing on the touchline, which seems to be the principal thrust of the Prime Minister’s Statement as repeated in the House by the Leader today.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend is entirely right in saying that we are standing on the touchline so far as the problems within the euro are concerned and that we see the countries of the eurozone needing to deal with that internally. However, my noble friend would be wrong if he thought that we had an entirely neutral view on the future of the eurozone as an entity, which we do not. He is quite right in saying that our economic interests and those of the eurozone are extremely closely tied. Something like 40 per cent of our exports go to eurozone countries. We wish to see stability and growth, which is why a large part of the Council was given over to a discussion about growth right across Europe and not uniquely in the eurozone countries.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, I cannot help but be struck by the number of negatives in the Statement: the word “not” is in almost every sentence, certainly on the front page. Following up the general assessment made by my noble friend Lady Royall, could the Leader of the House not go so far as to say that we have to be engaged in quite a significant way? The alternative of a collapse of the Greek negotiation is difficult to contemplate with any equanimity. Will the noble Lord go one inch further and say something that is not in the Statement, even though Greece has its own sub-heading, which is that we wish the Greek Prime Minister well and hope very much that he wins his vote tomorrow in Athens?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if that was the tiny inch that the noble Lord wanted, I can easily give it to him. Of course we wish the Greek Prime Minister well in winning his vote and, indeed, in succeeding in the policy of trying to reduce the budget deficit, bringing long-term benefits to the Greek economy and stabilising the eurozone. These things are in all our interests. I do not wish to give the impression that the British Prime Minister was standoffish in this Council—quite the contrary. That is why key conclusions on fiscal policy, on job creation and burdens on business, on Doha, on the European stability mechanism treaty and on development were all issues that were profoundly debated and, quite rightly, very much supported by the British Prime Minister.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, perhaps I may press the Leader of the House to try to summarise what I think is the ambivalence that Members of the House feel about the Government’s stance, which seems to be that it is in our interest to support the stability of the eurozone but not in our interest to do anything much towards that beyond speaking from the sidelines. My second question is more direct. Is it necessarily in the interests of the Greek people to stay with an overvalued euro and not to revert to the drachma, which would enable them to manage their economic affairs more flexibly in the years to come?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that really is not an issue for the British Government; it must be an issue for the Greeks, for the European Central Bank and for anybody else who is involved. We want to see a successful and stable eurozone. The European currency union is very substantial and, as I said a few moments ago, it is very important to the British economy, given the amount of our exports that go into the eurozone. While it is in our interest for the eurozone to be a successful monetary union, it is not necessarily in the interest of the British taxpayer to be seen as a lender of last resort. That is the difference that we have made in this Council, which is why we are very glad that Article 122 will no longer be used if there is a bailout.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I am pleased that the Prime Minister has said that Article 122 will no longer be used in future for bailing out other countries. Is it not true, however, that Article 122 was used illegally? Indeed, Article 125 of the Lisbon treaty precludes Article 122 or any other article from being used to bail out other countries within the European Union. In that case, the Commission broke the law. Should not the Government in fact be referring that breach of the law to the European Court of Justice to see exactly what went wrong?
Lord Strathclyde
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, is always first to pick holes in an argument of this kind and, rightly, to see when illegality is going on. We take no particular view on this. We know that some controversial decisions have been taken on the basis of these articles, but we are very glad with the results of this Council and the communiqué, which we believe has come up with the right solution.
Baroness Ford
May I press the noble Lord just one more time on this question of standing on the sidelines? I draw his attention to a report in the Financial Times this morning showing the massive exposure of Lloyds bank to Greek sovereign debt. Is it not the case that we simply do not have the luxury of standing on the sidelines where international capital markets are concerned?
Lord Strathclyde
We have independent regulatory regimes that look into these matters. The exposure of British banks to Greek sovereign bonds is substantial, but it is considerably smaller than the exposure to other European countries.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, it is always my deepest pleasure to defer to the kindness and remarkable wisdom of the independent UKIP former Labour Member who sits so graciously on our Benches. It is even more of a pleasure to defer to one of my own colleagues. In repeating the Statement, the Leader of the House mentioned the Arab spring. I welcome the statements by the Foreign Secretary and others about the need to follow the revolutions taking place in the Middle East and north Africa with support for development of the democratic processes in those countries, but is the Leader aware that at the same time the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is putting the squeeze on the finances of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and bodies that exist specifically to ensure that that kind of work is extended and developed? How does he reconcile this? Will he have a word with his noble friend sitting next to him, and with the Foreign Secretary, and say that it is vital that the work of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and other bodies promoting democracy is increasingly supported as we see the developments taking place in the Middle East and north Africa?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy is obviously a much valued organisation with a tremendous reputation and a long lineage over the past 20 years of explaining democracy to many countries that have come to it in a new way. It is also true about the Arab spring. My noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford has kindly reminded me that it is his view that the Westminster Foundation for Democracy got an increase in its budget this year. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, is vigorously shaking his head, which means that there is a disagreement between them. I admire them both greatly in their respective ways, so I shall make it my business to find out the answer. Whatever the truth, we all know that bodies of this kind have had a bit of a squeeze put on them as an inevitable consequence of the economic considerations that we have. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy is a highly valued body and I shall write to the noble Lord about its funding.
House of Lords: Working Practices
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, last July, I appointed a Leader’s Group to consider the working practices of the House and the operation of self-regulation, and to make recommendations.
Under the distinguished chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Goodlad, the group prepared the report that was delivered to me at the end of April and is the subject of this debate today. On behalf of the whole House, I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend Lord Goodlad and the other members of the group, as well as the staff who supported them, for their contribution to this review of the working practices of the House. My intention in leading this debate today is to provide an opportunity for noble Lords on all sides of the House to comment on the group’s recommendations.
I am conscious that 68 Members of the House took advantage of the opportunity to make a written submission to the group. But as was observed in the report, an average of 452 Members have attended the House each day since last year’s general election. By implication, fewer than one in five of those Members have made their views known so far. I am conscious that there are Members around the House, including many of those participating in today’s debate, who wish to make swift progress on the majority of the group’s recommendations. I assure them that I am fully seized of your Lordships’ appetite for urgent, incremental reforms—in this area as in others—and I believe that the report from the Leader’s Group offers ample scope for such progress. It contains many straightforward ideas that could be implemented immediately should they find favour with the House. I therefore intend to ensure that a large number of the group’s recommendations are considered promptly by the relevant committees of the House so that the House may take a view on them at the earliest opportunity.
However, it is my responsibility as Leader of the House to take account of the views of the whole House, including the large number of Members who do not take a close interest in our working practices but whose contributions are no less valuable for their lack of frequency. That is why today’s debate is an important milestone and why I should like to take this opportunity to encourage noble Lords who did not make a written submission and have not put down their names to speak today to consider making their views known to me.
The Leader’s Group has structured its recommendations around what it concluded were the House’s three core functions: holding the Executive to account, scrutinising legislation and providing a forum for public debate and inquiry. In respect of each of these functions, there are specific challenges and dilemmas that I hope that noble Lords will address in their contributions today.
Conduct in the Chamber, particularly at Question Time, has for some time now been a matter of concern to Members all around the House. The Leader’s Group confirmed that successive Leaders of the House had acted with complete impartiality in their role of advising the House on matters of procedure and order, including at Question Time. I am nonetheless conscious that some Members wish to see a greater role for the Chair at Question Time and that the Leader’s Group has made recommendations in this area which I hope will attract comment from noble Lords over the course of the afternoon.
There is also the wider question of whether we can make better use of time in the Chamber—for example, by making it a presumption that the Committee stages of Bills will take place in Grand Committee, or by taking second and subsequent Statements off the Floor of the House. A good example of the time spent on Statements could be seen this afternoon. Although there are trade-offs involved—for example, the ability to divide in Committee—these are recommendations that may commend themselves to your Lordships.
I am also interested in views from around the House on whether items of business, and particularly those items of business that are led by Back-Bench Members of the House, are sufficiently topical, varied and of general interest. The Leader’s Group has suggested that a sifting mechanism for Back-Bench business might serve the House better than the ballot and first-come, first-served systems through which topical Questions, balloted debates, and Questions for Short Debate are selected at present. A sifting mechanism might of course erode individual Members’ current ability to bring attention on the Floor to subjects that they alone have chosen, but your Lordships may take the view that that trade-off is warranted.
There has long been much hand wringing around the House over the volume of legislation that the House is asked to consider and the level of preparation and consultation that have preceded the introduction of specific Bills—in the past I have myself been known to indulge in that well-known lament. I regret that, when presenting figures on the number of Bills published in draft—which is paragraph 79 of the report—the Leader’s Group did not include the record of the current coalition Government since May 2010: five Bills have already been published in draft, and four Joint Committees have now either been set up or are in the process of being set up to conduct pre-legislative scrutiny on: the draft detention of terrorist suspects Bills, the draft defamation Bill, the draft House of Lords reform Bill and the draft financial services Bill. Our record thus far should demonstrate that this Government do take pre-legislative scrutiny seriously and are matching words with deeds.
As regards post-legislative scrutiny, I am well aware of concerns that once legislation is passed, insufficient attention is devoted to its implementation and effects. It is of course already open to committees in both Houses to examine and report on the post-legislative memoranda published by the Government, but the Leader’s Group has suggested that this House may wish to approach post-legislative scrutiny more systematically. Whether that should extend to a standing post-legislative scrutiny committee is a matter on which noble Lords will no doubt comment today. My own instinct is that our Liaison Committee is well placed to perform that strategic function and that we might make more targeted and flexible use of the expertise and experience of Members of the House by setting up ad-hoc committees whose membership is tailored to the Act under scrutiny.
The Leader’s Group has also considered whether there might be scope to take evidence on Bills introduced in this House and make recommendations in that respect. We already have procedures that allow the House to send Bills for evidence-taking—to Special Public Bill Committees or to Select Committees—but we have thus far used them sparingly, not least because wider use of these procedures would detract from the principle, which I value, that every Peer can contribute to scrutiny and amendment at every part of every stage of a Bill. Although I believe the Leader’s Group was right to explore ways in which the House might enhance the way it conducts scrutiny of legislation, I doubt it will come as a surprise to noble Lords if I suggest that government support for such measures is likely to hinge on whether they extend the overall length of time a Bill spends in this House.
It should be clear by now that there is a theme underpinning many of the recommendations in the Leader’s Group report; namely, the extent to which Members of the House are prepared to trade off certain aspects of self-regulation in pursuit of other objectives. I hope that as many noble Lords as possible will address that question in their contributions today.
Before opening the Floor to those contributions, there is one consideration that I should like to draw to the attention of the House. The Leader’s Group has quite rightly attempted to cost the implications of its recommendations. Noble Lords will be aware that, under instruction from the House Committee, we are attempting to keep our resource costs constant in real terms. It is my strong preference that overall the recommendations that we take forward should allow us to adhere to that principle. That does not mean that we cannot take forward recommendations that have resource implications, rather that where we do so, we should examine whether those additional resources can be freed up elsewhere.
As I made clear at the outset, I intend to arrange for the relevant committees of the House to consider specific recommendations in the report. I envisage that in due course the House will have the opportunity to approve or reject more detailed proposals for implementing individual recommendations based on reports from those committees. I thank again my noble friend Lord Goodlad and his group. I very much look forward to this debate and I shall give answers to as many contributions as possible at the end of it. I beg to move.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition for her speech. As I made clear at the outset, my intention in leading this debate was to provide an opportunity for noble Lords of all sides of the House to comment on the recommendations that the Leader’s Group has made. Forty-three speakers have taken that opportunity. It is now my job to try and respond to them. There have been a lot of speeches and a lot of points made in each speech, so this may not be as neat a wind-up as noble Lords might like. Because I do not mention a recommendation, it does not mean that I am either against it or for it. However, there needs to be a process for moving them on from here.
The noble Lord, Lord Filkin, said that there was a broad measure of support for these recommendations, and I agree with him. It is a testament to the committee that that is the case. My noble friend Lord Tyler said that the report was pragmatic and not doctrinal. He was right about that; it crosses party lines. Even in this debate, different Members have taken different views on some of the details, but the broad thrust has been basically supportive.
Even the Leader’s Group recognised at paragraph 9 of its report that only a subset of its recommendations could be implemented with immediate effect but, as I made clear, I believe that a good number of the group’s recommendations fall into that category. That is why I intend to ensure that the House has the chance to approve or reject proposals for implementing a range of the group’s recommendations on the basis of reports from the relevant committees of the House at the earliest available opportunity.
There are of course other recommendations from the Leader’s Group that could not be put into practice without further detailed consideration being given to their practical ramifications, including costs and possible unintended consequences. The noble Baroness herself just mentioned one or two of those. While I am on the question of costs, I was impressed by what my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said about that issue. That is what I mean: around the House, the clerks, the House Committee and the other committees can look at our priorities. If we want two new Select Committees, we should look at how we can shave some costs elsewhere. It may be only 1 per cent off the total cost of the House but that does not mean that we should not search for efficiencies. I would not want cost to stand in the way of doing some of the very good things that have come out of the report and which the House clearly wants.
I was amused by my noble friend Lord Lucas’s suggestions on hereditary Peers. However, I am thrilled that as from today my noble friend will be able to write to the Clerk of the Parliaments, taking permanent retirement. That would save us some money, and he would be leading by example. Others may be following in his footsteps, although he would not know that when he wrote his letter.
It is only right that the House should not be invited to take a definitive view of all the recommendations in one go until they can each be presented in their full context. That is not about delay; it is about practicality.
What has changed in the House? There has been change over a long period of time. I do not think that anything immediate has happened, apart from some things that are obvious—the general election, for instance, and Labour going into opposition. I think that some 75 per cent of the Labour Party in the House of Lords had never known opposition in this House, so inevitably that is a bit strange. Coalition has thrust up a whole bunch of challenges, such as how we deal with Questions. In fact the greatest benefactors of that have been members of the Labour Party; they get between 40 per cent and 50 per cent of Questions at Question Time. I do not mind that because one of the features of good scrutiny is that the main party of opposition should be in the vanguard of that scrutiny.
There are many more former Members of Parliament who are now Members of this House. What I have found about former Members of Parliament is that they are so used to the firm smack of discipline from the Speaker that they find it quite odd coming here—but more of that in a moment.
There has been a substantial increase in the number of Peers, more than 100 in the past 12 months. There have been issues of assimilation. There is a great deal of expertise. A lot of people have high expectations when they come into this House and there are a lot of high expectations of them among outside groups, but of course when they get here it is all a lot more difficult. We have also had a more substantial and far more active Cross-Bench group. These are all good things, and of course Peers want to justify why they come here so they want more activity. One of the best things that has come out of the report is that we are going to give Peers more opportunities to get involved, to speak in committees and to take part in pre-legislative scrutiny and post-legislative scrutiny and a whole bunch of other things. That is one of the reasons why I think that we have to change.
The noble Baroness the Convenor of the Cross Benches said something good at the start of her speech: if only half the recommendations were implemented, that would transform the House. I am sure that we will do far better than half, but that is a sign of what can be achieved.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, asked about statistics. My understanding is that the really wonderful annual report of the House of Lords, which has clearly not been required reading by the noble Lord, has an enormous amount of statistics on all the kinds of questions that he asked.
I was surprised that the issue of the Leader’s Question Time did not come up more often. I think the House knows how much I enjoy being at the Dispatch Box. It is only because I do not want to hog it selfishly that I am not here far more often.
The noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, raised a question about redundancy. I am glad to be able to tell him that no member of the House of Lords staff has been made redundant due to savings cuts. However, those are not really matters for the Leader. They are quite properly matters for the Chairman of Committees—
Lord Martin of Springburn
I was referring to the whole Palace of Westminster, and my understanding is that there is a 60:40 split. There are staff in this Palace who have been made redundant, but I am glad that, so far, no one in the House of Lords has been made redundant.
Lord Strathclyde
I hope they will not be, but it would be for the Chairman of Committees to answer those kinds of questions. I am not sure that I would answer in terms of my own responsibilities, as business management is done by the Chief Whips, but that is another idea that could be looked at.
Some noble Lords have welcomed the idea of getting rid of the second Statement and putting it into a Moses Room. There is some merit in that.
On the question of Grand Committees, morning sittings have not found a great deal of favour—they are quite controversial. The noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, made the suggestion of having them at night. I think that is a rather good idea. If we are going to have Grand Committees, there is no reason why they should not sit until 9 or 10 pm. The Procedure Committee can look at that suggestion, which is something that is very good that has come out of the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said that I had been opposed to Grand Committees when they were much extended by my very eminent predecessor, Lord Williams of Mostyn. He was right about that, but I conceded the point when we introduced the 10 pm cut-off because I realised that you could not have both: you could not have no Grand Committees and a 10 pm cut-off—the one forces the other. Prior to that change, we regularly sat in Committee at midnight or 1 am, and Lord Williams of Mostyn rightly made the point that we should not make legislation at that time, as 10 pm is late enough. I agree that, if we are going to have the 10 pm cut-off, then we have to have business off the Floor of the House. As more Peers wish to play a part in the business of the House, it means more Bills have to go off the Floor of the House. The House of Lords cannot pride itself on revision and then not actually get enough done to maintain its very excellent reputation.
The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, highlighted the issue—I wrote “Shameless!” on my piece of paper—of the 10 pm closing time. Having been a government Chief Whip, which is a very eminent post in this House, he knows as well as I do that the Opposition decide the times of Bills. There is a recommendation in the report that the government Chief Whip should stand up at the beginning of business to explain why we are going to sit beyond 10 pm, but it should, of course, be the opposition Chief Whip who should stand up at 10 pm to explain to the House why they have spent so much time on an amendment. However, we shall fight that one out on the Procedure Committee.
Lord Grocott
On the word “Shameless”, the reason why the House sits longer than it needs to is because of the size of the Government’s legislative programme. No one could sensibly suggest that in one short year you should, for example, have two major constitutional Bills and one huge constitutional proposal without having any effect on the capacity of the House to legislate. What the Leader needs to do—let us have a private conversation about this—is occasionally to suggest to his Cabinet colleagues that maybe one or two of them could possibly postpone one of their Bills until the next Session, and then we would not need to have all these late night sittings.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I very much look forward to that private conversation. I can assure the noble Lord that, as a Government, we are not moving any faster than previous Governments have done.
There are so many aspects to the issue of self-regulation, but I was very much impressed by what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham said. He observed that self-discipline is the corollary of self-regulation, which is at the heart of everything that we try to do. We have too many lengthy speeches, too many interventions, too many amendments at Third Reading and too many speeches on Bill do now pass. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, had it right that we break the rules far more than we stick to them. Part of that is lack of knowledge; part of it is that people think that they can get away with it—but that was mentioned by so many noble Lords.
My noble friends Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market and Lord Jenkin, the noble Baronesses, Lady Prashar, Lady Hamwee, Lady Murphy, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and so many others talked about pre and post-legislative scrutiny. We all want it. This Government’s record so far has been good, given that we are into only the second year of office—I mentioned that when I opened the debate. I am very keen on post-legislative scrutiny, partly because, after 13 years of Labour Government, there seem to be so many opportunities to go back and have a look at what was done in our name and whether it was right.
I was very interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, said about an expert committee on post-legislative scrutiny as opposed to an ad hoc committee. I have leant towards an ad hoc committee because I want experts to be involved—for example, charities to look at the Charities Act or experts on gambling, I suppose, to look at the Gambling Act. The noble Lord, Lord Bichard, and others have taken a slightly different view, which needs further consideration.
Another big issue in the debate was the legislative standards committee. It was mentioned by, among others, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, my noble friend Lord Maclennan and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. I think that I know what the fundamental problem is here. It was my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield who said that we should have less and better drafted legislation. I agree with her; I have thought that for a long time. I have not quite got to the bottom of why that does not happen, because people want it and it makes perfectly good sense. The previous Government wanted to do it and failed. We, too, want to do it and I accept that we have not got it quite as right as we would have liked. I have been ambitious in this and it has not quite worked.
A legislative standards committee needs further investigation. I do not give the idea full marks, although I give its underlying intention full marks. Why is that? Well, I listened with interest to what noble Lords said about it. There is a tension between the House’s role as a revising Chamber, which many noble Lords have stressed today, and the idea that one of its committees, composed of a small group of Members, should have the right to “block”—the term of my noble friend Lord Maclennan—the progress of a government Bill. The idea that the Government need to present a business case for their legislation calls into question the basic constitutional principle that a Government with a majority in the House of Commons can expect to have their programme considered by Parliament. It would be a bit odd to have a group in the House of Lords which said, “Well, actually, we don’t like the way this has been drafted”. Presumably, it is not about policy; it is about how it all hangs together and whether a Bill is a skeleton Bill.
Lord Filkin
All that the report says is that in principle we should apply to primary legislation what already happens to secondary legislation. In the case of secondary legislation, a set of standards for good legislation is defined by the Cabinet Office and a check is then made as to whether they have been complied with. The Butler report is clear; most people say that those are good standards. All the House would do is say whether they had been complied with. It would not look at policy; that would not be its job. Nor would it have the power to say no. It is a decision for the House—it is most unlikely that it would use it—to deny a Second Reading.
Lord Strathclyde
Denying a government Bill that had already passed the House of Commons a Second Reading would be an extraordinary thing. There would be another problem. For Bills that started in the House of Lords, if this were not a Joint Committee—I think that there is much more merit it being a Joint Committee than a House of Lords Committee, which I know was the recommendation of the committee—the business managers would seek to avoid starting Bills in the House of Lords. As Leader of the Lords, I think that would be a very bad thing. There are issues here that need to be explored further. There are downsides too, but the basic aim is a good one.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
Before my noble friend leaves that point, would he perhaps give us some indication of who is best placed to give consideration to this core recommendation of the report and the sort of timeframe that he would have in mind for that consideration?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, first, I think that we should invite the clerks to come forward with a proposal. The proposal should be put to the Procedure Committee and of course within this we need to decide whether it should be a Joint Committee or a House Committee. If it is a Joint Committee, there need to be discussions with another place and we would have to find out about how it felt about such things. I have no idea about a timescale, but we could get an initial view relatively quickly, and I think that that is what we should do.
The role of the usual channels got a bit of a battering; I think the usual channels and how it operates needs clarifying. Perhaps the most interesting part of the debate concerned the role of the Lord Speaker. The report has trod carefully between self-regulation, Leader’s powers and Speaker’s powers, and has come to the conclusion of an experimental period, simply to shift the Leader’s power to the chair. I am not entirely convinced that that is a solution to the problem. What has happened is that more and more people try to get in at Question Time. It is an immensely important part of the day. The House is full. The leaders, Chief Whips, Convenor—everybody is here. The Lord Speaker is in the chair. It is a focal point for the start of our day. It is Peers wanting to get in and ask their question that creates the problem.
I increasingly think that we do have to make a choice on this, and I think we ought to have an early vote and make a decision. Part of that is that you cannot have both a firm chair and self-regulation. We have to choose between one and the other. Noble Lords have said, “Well, you can have a little bit of direction from the chair and that doesn’t affect self regulation”, but I think that it does. I do not think that that is a bad thing. One noble Lord said that this House is the only legislative Chamber that does not have a firm chair. It may be that that era of self-regulation—of politeness and giving way—has moved on, for a whole variety of reasons. It is that the nature of the House and the nature of the way we do legislation have simply changed. That is the decision that I think will face us. If we move the Leader’s powers to the chair we will very quickly get into names being called. Some noble Lords are concerned about behaviour in this House. I always remind people to go a couple of hundred yards down the corridor and see a House where there is very firm authority from the chair and to really take a view. Is there better behaviour in another place? It is worth doing.
Lord Campbell-Savours
The noble Lord is not offering an alternative solution.
Lord Strathclyde
That is why the House has to decide, and I am not sure that there is an alternative solution. You either push power to the chair or you do not. Perhaps more assertiveness from me and the government Dispatch Box may help and encourage. Noble Lords might like a firm smack of authority from the Dispatch Box. I accept that there is a difficulty and a problem. When I first came to the House, Members would regularly give way.
Baroness O'Loan
My Lords, I wonder whether it might be helpful to have clarification as to the way in which at Question Time the right to ask supplementary questions moves around the House. Is the order Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem and Cross-Bench, or Conservative, Labour, Cross-Bench et cetera? That would be helpful to the House.
Lord Strathclyde
The noble Baroness is right; it is an art and not a science. Since I have been doing it, it looks a lot easier from the other side of the House than it does from here. It slightly depends on who is speaking. When I first came here, Peers would give way to Peers who they believed were more senior to them or had more authority or more knowledge. There is much less of that now and a certain order is quite hard to impose.
With the coalition, there has been broad agreement that we do not have a Conservative Peer followed by a Liberal Democrat Peer. Whoever is next—the Cross-Benches or the Labour Party—rather depends on the question. It all goes wrong when a right reverend Prelate speaks but that is not what I meant. It really all goes wrong when another Peer, such as a UKIP Peer, speaks, which upsets the smooth flow. I am not offering any solutions. There is tougher authority either from the Dispatch Box or from the Woolsack. You cannot have both.
On the usual channels, I felt that there was again a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of this House. That might be borne of the fact that many Members come here from another place, where the Executive are powerful and have a majority. The Executive in this House have no majority. Therefore, the usual channels, in my long experience as being a part of them, work very much in the interests of the Back-Benchers. They try to put the Back-Benchers’ interests first because the usual channels know that at any stage something can be rolled over by the Back-Benchers. That is how it works.
I believe that there needs to be more clarity about how the usual channels operate. Huge advantages and privileges are given to Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition, and I understand why that should be. I will discuss with the noble Baroness ways in which we should clarify how the usual channels work, what part the Convenor, the Liberal Democrats and the Back-Benchers and so on play, and what role the Private Secretary to the Leader and the government Chief Whip play in managing the business. It is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, but once you understand how it all interlocks it is much simpler than many people believe. I am going to ask the clerks for a list of new Peers who have not been on an induction course and who therefore do not understand how the House works, yet have very strong views on how the House should be reviewed. I shall write to them to encourage them to go to an induction course.
I have completely lost my place in my speech as a result of all that, so I will move on swiftly by saying that this has been a wide-ranging and timely debate. I have probably given the impression that I am less keen on some of these proposals than I gave at the beginning. I have picked out some of the more difficult ones. This has been an immensely useful exercise, in part because my noble friend Lord Goodlad has found the kitchen sink of procedure and process in the House of Lords. He has put it all out and there is something for everyone. I thank noble Lords for their different strands of opinion. There is now a great deal of work for the Procedure Committee, the Liaison Committee and the other committees to do, but it is right that we should do it. I hope that we will have an early opportunity to have a report back with a substantial number of these recommendations on which the House can take a view and therefore see that real progress has been made. I beg to move.
Land Registration (Network Access) (Amendment) Rules 2011
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft rules, orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
House of Lords: Reform
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That this House takes note of the Government’s proposals for reform of the House of Lords set out in Cm 8077.
Lord Norton of Louth
My Lords, as my name is one of those being put forward to serve on the Joint Committee, I shall not address the detail of the Bill; instead, I shall address the wider context. The Joint Committee will look in detail at the specific contents, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester provided us yesterday with an excellent template for assessing the Bill.
It might be helpful for my noble friend to clarify a number of points relating primarily to the demand, purpose and consequences of the Government’s proposals. I begin with demand. I detected yesterday a whiff of the cod liver oil approach; it is good for you whether you like it or not. I distinguish between demand and support. I also distinguish between support for a principle and support for the means to deliver on that principle.
I have a specific question: what clear empirical evidence is there of demand for the Bill? I hear the argument that we should not let the views of the public determine the issue, but if we are to do things in the interests of voters in this particular form, it would at least be appropriate to consider their views. The last in-depth survey I saw was the Ipsos MORI poll of 2007. Do the Government have more contemporary data?
Could my noble friend also tell us what the identifiable problem is that the Bill is intended to address? Various justifications are offered. One is clearly that the election of the second Chamber is the democratic option. That is advanced as if it is self-evidently true. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway raised a fundamental question yesterday; democracy is a contested concept—a point that was developed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter. If we take the definition of representative democracy offered by Schmitter and Karl—that it is,
“a system of governance in which rulers are held accountable for their actions in the public realm by citizens, acting indirectly through the competition and co-operation of their representatives”—
the draft Bill before us is not the democratic option, because there is election but no accountability.
In any event, in a situation of asymmetrical bicameralism, in which the elected Chamber enjoys primacy, it does not follow that Members of the second Chamber necessarily have to be elected for the system to be judged to be democratic. Indeed, if the accountability of government is the basis of the definition, it is possible to argue that an elected second Chamber undermines the core accountability at the heart of our existing system. Of course there is a counterargument, but that merely serves to make my point: that we are dealing with a contested concept. We cannot proceed on the basis of an assumed agreement as to its meaning.
The same could be said about the concept of legitimacy. It would be helpful to know how the Government define the concept and then relate that to how they believe the legitimacy, once defined, of the elected 80 per cent will embrace the unelected 20 per cent—or will the 20 per cent be somehow illegitimate?
On definition, it would also be helpful to know how the Government define primacy in the context of the relationship between the two Houses. Despite the general saving clause, Clause 2, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and the Deputy Prime Minister have both conceded that the relationship between the two Chambers will change over time. The noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, told us that one can have an elected second Chamber but maintain the primacy, if not the supremacy, of the Commons. He also told us that an elected second Chamber may have prevented an unwise war. I am not sure how one can reconcile those two statements. Where does primacy begin and end?
The noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, also introduced a comparative element. Only a minority of second Chambers are wholly elected. Elected second Chambers are to be found predominantly in federal nations. It is not clear what purpose would be served by an elected second Chamber in a unitary state, where electors would be voting for members of that Chamber in exactly the same capacity as they would be voting for members of the first. It injects an element of redundancy into the system. I thus invite my noble friend to tell us precisely what problem is being addressed by the Bill.
I turn from the perceived problem to the proposed solution. There is a profound difference between situations where a second Chamber is crafted as part of a new constitution and where a change is made within the context of an established polity. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter raised this yesterday. Very few studies have been undertaken of second Chambers as second Chambers, let alone of changes to them in established democracies. In drawing together the findings of one study of changes to second Chambers in leading western nations, Meg Russell and Mark Sandford concluded, in an article in the Journal of Legislative Studies—I declare an interest as editor of the journal—
“These examples suggest that the design of second Chambers is very difficult to get right. They may be criticised for having too little power, or on the other hand of having too much; for being too democratic, or not democratic enough; for being sidelined and irrelevant or for being a carbon-copy of the lower house. When considering why upper house reform has not happened, one of the first answers has to be lack of clarity over the purpose of the upper house … As Mughan and Patterson have put it, second Chambers remain ‘essentially contested institutions’”.
In essence, it is very difficult to get right. This points to the crucial importance of ensuring that change is well grounded in an understanding not only of what is required—that is a clear and accepted goal—but of a clear recognition of the means for achieving it. Could my noble friend therefore tell us what studies have been undertaken or utilised by the Government of practice elsewhere, in terms of moving from one second Chamber to another, in order to determine that this measure is the best means for achieving the Government’s goals? In short, I think it would be of value to the House, and to the Joint Committee, to know what studies have been undertaken or commissioned by the Government as to the demand for, and consequences of, the Bill. That will provide a solid basis for the detailed work that is now to be undertaken, and to which I for one, will devote myself on behalf of the House.
Business of the House
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Lord Strathclyde
That Standing Order 40(1) be dispensed with on Wednesday, 22 June to enable the adjourned debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Strathclyde on the Government’s proposals for reform of the House of Lords to be taken before Oral Questions.