Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

Before my noble friend Lady Hamwee continues speaking to her amendment, perhaps I may explain that there has been a short Adjournment of the Committee’s proceedings so that discussion could take place as to whether we should continue. The Government’s position is utterly straightforward. Earlier today, a defeat took place. It is not the first time that a defeat has taken place on a government Bill. There is no reason why we should not continue; in fact, it is the Government’s wish that we should. I understand that some noble Lords who have put down amendments would prefer not to continue. It is entirely their right—and we would not complain—not to move their amendments this evening, but good order and precedent should continue and we should carry on with the Committee stage. I hope that my noble friend Lady Hamwee can continue with her amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I accept what the Leader has said. However, the advice given to us earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to perhaps take time to reflect on where we are on the Bill and the implications of today’s vote for the remaining amendments, was cogent and very sensible. When the House was adjourned a brief 12 minutes ago, it was agreed that it would be adjourned in order for discussions to take place. I point out to the Chief Whip that that is what was said. No discussions have taken place with the Opposition. I do not complain; I merely point that out as a matter for the record. I am perfectly happy to continue as the noble Lord desires, but I do not think that it is a sensible way forward. It would be far more appropriate for us to take time to reflect. However, the noble Lord is the Leader of the House and it is for him to decide.

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[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I do not wish any evil whatever upon this House, for which I have immense respect. The situation, surely, is that there are these categories of provision—first, as regards any provision dealing directly with the police commissioner, it would be utterly impossible and absurd to debate it; secondly, as regards any reference to a police commissioner, again, it would be impossible to debate it; thirdly, as regards any implied relevance of a police commissioner, again, it would be wrong to debate it. It seems that no real, genuine and substantial debate can properly occur in relation to Part 1. I do not say that with any sense of pleasure whatever.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, as a veteran of many amendments and many losses, I am slightly baffled by this debate. The Government have presented a Bill to this House and it is the property of this House. The House has decided, in its wisdom, to vote on an amendment that has removed an important aspect of the Bill. Noble Lords have spoken and have agonised over the implications of that decision. The time to think about the implications of that decision is before you vote, not after.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Strathclyde]

It is a good point. However, noble Lords have done so, without thinking over the implications. We have an amendment before us. Noble Lords have said it is difficult—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

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[Lord Strathclyde]

I am going to finish my point. Noble Lords have said it is difficult to continue. Moving amendments in this House is not compulsory. If noble Lords do not wish to move their amendments at this Committee stage, they do not have to. They can reconsider them in the light of the debate. We will of course be returning to this Bill on Report. We have spent a great deal of time discussing the implications of a vote that took place some hours ago. I assert that we should have discussed the implications of that in that very long debate and not now. If noble Lords wish to down tools and go home early, that is their decision. I think we should continue with the Bill.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House is being slightly unfair on the House. Noble Lords were very clear what they were voting for. They realised that if the amendment was passed, they were kicking a very large hole in this Bill. That was the decision of the House. What people are querying is the strange “band played on” mentality of the government Front Bench. You have hit the iceberg but the band carries on playing. No doubt, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, wishes to remain at the wheel until such time as the “Titanic” sinks below the waves—you can see where the metaphor is going. My point is that I do not think it is fair of the noble Lord the Leader of the House to suggest that people were not aware of what they were doing. What we cannot understand is what the Government think they are doing.

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, if I may speak again, perhaps the Leader of the House could help me by telling me exactly what it is that I am now discussing. I think that I am discussing a police commission comprising a police and crime panel that will elect one of its number to be a police commissioner that has no powers in the Bill, as all the powers in the Bill belong to other organisations. I am mystified as to what I am supposed to be thinking about.

[Lord Strathclyde]

The noble Baroness is generous in giving me powers, which I do not have, of knowing what it is that she is talking about. I dare say that what the noble Baroness is supposed to be talking about is the amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. If my noble friend Lady Hamwee wishes to proceed with her amendment, she may and she can explain what noble Lords are supposed to be discussing. If she does not wish to carry on with her amendment and subsequent noble Lords do not wish to carry on with their amendments, the rules of the House are utterly clear: you say, “Not moved” when your name is called. We would then carry on to the stage that the noble Lords, Lord Soley, Lord Harris and others, wish to get to. This really is not complicated.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, could I seek one point of information? Given that, as was suggested by one of my noble friends earlier, we had a target of reaching the group starting with Amendment 15, if noble Lords did not wish to move their amendments in the groups preceding that group, would the Leader agree that we should finish at Amendment 15 for the sake of those people who are not present this evening and who did not expect to have their amendments debated this evening? Would the House then adjourn?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the target is a sort of rough target in order to help the House. From other discussions that have taken place, I understand that the Opposition are fully briefed up to Amendment 18, but I do not know whether that is true. I would rather dispose of Amendment 13, which is the amendment that we are on, and see where we get to. It is nearly 20 minutes to 10.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader give an assurance that he will give the Government’s position in relation to the earlier decision of your Lordships’ House on anything that we discuss from now? We need to know what the Government are arguing in the light of the earlier decision. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, was asking that question. As the Government have suffered a defeat and the Bill has now changed, an amendment that we discuss ought to be discussed in the light of the Government’s position now. Therefore, we need the Government’s position to be spelled out even before we debate amendments.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the Government’s Minister will respond to the questions posed by those who propose amendments. That is what happens when we deal with Bills at Committee stage. Nothing has changed. Let us get on with it.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, can we just have some clarity from the noble Lord the Leader? I am sorry to prolong this—I promise not to do so, or I give an assurance in the same sense that targets for amendments are given to the House—but can the noble Lord the Leader explain to the House why the government Front Bench has permitted us to debate an amendment that potentially no one in this House understands? We are talking about transitional arrangements, which are a perfectly valid area of debate, but we do not know what we are transitioning from or to. Under those circumstances, why has the government Front Bench allowed the debate? We are a self-regulating House. If the powers were invested in the Lord Speaker, no doubt we would have a ruling, which we would all of course at once obey. Under these circumstances, the noble Lord has to tell the House how he has reached his decision, and we have to understand it.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, first of all, this will not be the first time that the House has debated an issue that it does not know anything about. Secondly, it is up to the noble Baroness—this is not a government amendment—who owns the amendment to explain what it is for. Again, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, that this is really simple. If the noble Baroness does not explain it sufficiently well, the amendment will either be withdrawn, or voted on, or whatever. That is what happens. The Government will respond to questions that are put to them. I cannot be clearer to the noble Lord. I invite the noble Baroness to carry on from where she left off.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:

Standing Order 19 (Election of Lord Speaker)

Osama bin Laden

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I hope that this is a convenient moment to repeat a Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place on the death of Osama bin Laden and counterterrorism.

“Mr Speaker, the death of Osama bin Laden will have important consequences for the security of our people at home and abroad and for our foreign policy, including our partnership with Pakistan, our military action in Afghanistan and the wider fight against terrorism across the world. Last night, I chaired a meeting of COBRA to begin to address some of these issues, the National Security Council has met this morning, and I wanted to come to the House this afternoon to take the first opportunity to address these consequences directly and answer honourable Members' questions.

At 3 am yesterday, I received a call from President Obama. He informed me that US special forces had successfully mounted a targeted operation against a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. Osama bin Laden had been killed, along with four others: bin Laden's son, two others linked to him and a female member of his family entourage. There was a ferocious firefight and a US helicopter had to be destroyed, but there was no loss of American life.

I am sure that the whole House will join me in congratulating President Obama and praising the courage and skill of the American special forces who carried out this operation. It is a strike at the heart of international terrorism and a great achievement for America and for all who have joined in the long struggle to defeat al-Qaeda. We should remember today in particular the brave British service men and women who have given their lives in the fight against terrorism across the world, and we should pay tribute especially to those British forces who have played their part over the past decade in the hunt for bin Laden. He was the man responsible for 9/11, which was not only an horrific killing of Americans but remains to this day the largest loss of British life in any terrorist attack: a man who inspired further atrocities, including in Bali, Madrid, Istanbul and of course here in London on 7/7; and, let us remember, a man who posed as a leader of Muslims but was actually a mass murderer of Muslims all over the world—indeed, he killed more Muslims than people of any other faith.

Nothing will bring back the loved ones who have been lost, and of course no punishment at our disposal can remotely fit the many appalling crimes for which he was responsible; but I hope that, at least for the victims' families, there is now a sense of justice being served as a long, dark chapter in their lives is finally closed. As the head of a family group for United Airlines Flight 93 put it, we are,

‘raised, obviously, never to hope for someone's death’,

but we are,

‘willing to make an exception in this case ... He was evil personified, and our world is a better place without him’.

Britain was with America from the first day of the struggle to defeat al-Qaeda. Our resolve today is as strong as it was then. There can be no impunity and no safe refuge for those who kill in the name of this poisonous ideology. Our first focus must be on our own security. While bin Laden is gone, the threat of al-Qaeda remains. Clearly there is a risk that al-Qaeda and its affiliates in places such as Yemen and the Maghreb will want to demonstrate that they are able to operate effectively; and, of course, there is always the risk of a radicalised individual acting alone—a so-called lone-wolf attack. So we must be more vigilant than ever, and we must maintain that vigilance for some time to come.

The terrorist threat level in the UK is already at severe, which is as high as it can go without intelligence of a specific threat. We will keep that threat level under review, working closely with the intelligence agencies and the police.

In terms of people travelling overseas, we have updated our advice and encourage British nationals to monitor the media carefully for local reactions, remain vigilant, exercise caution in public places and avoid demonstrations. We have ordered our embassies across the world to review their security.

Let me turn next to Pakistan. The fact that bin Laden was living in a large house in a populated area suggests that he must have had a support network in Pakistan. We do not currently know the extent of that network, so it is right that we ask searching questions about it, and we will. But let us start with what we do know.

Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism than any other country in the world. As President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani said to me when I spoke to them yesterday, as many as 30,000 innocent civilians have been killed. More Pakistani soldiers and security forces have died fighting extremism than have international forces killed in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden was an enemy of Pakistan. He had declared war against the Pakistani people, and he had ordered attacks against them.

President Obama said in his statement that,

‘counterterrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was hiding’.

Continued co-operation will be just as important in the days ahead. I believe that it is in Britain's national interest to recognise that we share the same struggle against terrorism. That is why we will continue to work with our Pakistani counterparts on intelligence gathering, tracing plots and taking action to stop them. That is why we will continue to honour our aid promises, including our support for education as a critical way of helping the next generation of Pakistanis to turn their back on extremism and look forward to a brighter and more prosperous future. Above all, it is why we were one of the founder members of the Friends of Democratic Pakistan, because it is by working with the democrats in Pakistan that we can make sure the whole country shares the same determination to fight terror.

I also spoke yesterday to President Karzai in Afghanistan. We both agreed that the death of bin Laden provides a new opportunity for Afghanistan and Pakistan to work together to achieve stability on both sides of the border. Our strategy towards Afghanistan is straightforward and has not changed. We want an Afghanistan capable of looking after its own security without the help of foreign forces. We should take this opportunity to send a clear message to the Taliban; now is the time for them to separate themselves from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political process.

The myth of bin Laden was one of a freedom fighter, living in austerity and risking his life for the cause as he moved around in the hills and mountainous caverns of the tribal areas. The reality of bin Laden was very different: a man who encouraged others to make the ultimate sacrifice while he himself hid in the comfort of a large, expensive villa in Pakistan, experiencing none of the hardship he expected his supporters to endure.

Finally, let me briefly update the House on Libya. In recent weeks we have stepped up our air campaign to protect the civilian population. Every element of Gaddafi's war machine has been degraded. Over the last few days alone, NATO aircraft have struck 35 targets including tanks and armoured personnel carriers, as well as bunkers and ammunition storage facilities. We have also made strikes against his command and control centres, which direct his operations against civilians. Over the weekend there were reports that in one of those strikes Colonel Gaddafi’s son, Saif al-Arab Gaddafi, was killed. All the targets chosen were clearly within the boundaries set by UN Resolutions 1970 and 1973. These resolutions permit all necessary measures to protect civilian life, including attacks on command and control bases.

This weekend also saw attacks on the British and Italian embassies. We utterly deplore this. The Gaddafi regime is in clear beach of the Vienna convention to protect diplomatic missions. We hold it fully to account, and we have already expelled the Libyan ambassador from London. The British embassy was looted as well as destroyed, the World War Two memorial was desecrated, and the UN has felt obliged to pull its people out for fear of attack. Gaddafi made much of his call for a ceasefire, but at the very moment Gaddafi claimed he wanted to talk he had in fact been laying mines in Misrata harbour to stop humanitarian aid getting in and continuing his attacks on civilians, including attacks across the border in neighbouring Tunisia. We must continue to enforce the UN resolutions fully until such a time as they are completely complied with, and that means continuing the NATO mission until there is an end to all attacks on and threats to civilians.

Bin Laden and Gaddafi were said to have hated each other, but there was a common thread running between them. They both feared the idea that democracy and civil rights could take hold in the Arab world. While we should continue to degrade, dismantle and defeat the terrorist networks, a big part of the long-term answer is the success of democracy in the Middle East and the conclusion of the Arab-Israeli peace process. For 20 years, bin Laden claimed that the future of the Muslim world would be his, but what Libya has shown, as Egypt and Tunisia showed before it, is that people are rejecting everything that bin Laden stood for. Instead of replacing dictatorship with his extremist totalitarianism, they are choosing democracy.

Ten years on from the terrible tragedy of 9/11, with the end of bin Laden and the democratic awakening across the Arab world, we must seize this unique opportunity to deliver a decisive break with the forces of al-Qaeda and its poisonous ideology, which has caused so much suffering for so many years. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for what she has said. Over the past 10 years, there has been much agreement between the Government, the Opposition and both sides of the House—if I can put it like that. That support, which the noble Baroness gave today, does not stop the Opposition from offering effective scrutiny of the Government and their actions. I welcome the strong support she gave for the Statement and her fulsome support for the presence of the United States and American Special Forces with their particular courage and clearly very careful planning of this extraordinary operation.

The noble Baroness was also right to remember 9/11, which was almost 10 years ago, and so many of the other atrocities that took place, very often in the name of bin Laden and organised by al-Qaeda. It is equally right that all sides of the House have welcomed the calm response of the Pakistani Government to what has happened. Naturally there is still uncertainty about who knew what and when about bin Laden’s presence in what is, by all accounts, a well-to-do area in Pakistan not far from one of its key military academies. The noble Baroness asked how long bin Laden was present in his villa. We do not as yet know exactly when he arrived there but there is real speculation that he could have been there living in Pakistan for some years.

The noble Baroness also asked whether Pakistan, and particularly its security forces, fully supported the counter-terrorism effort. Unequivocally the answer is yes. There is a great deal of realisation about the harm and damage that terrorism has inflicted on the people of Pakistan. There is a real desire across the Government, working with the army and the internal security forces, to achieve a solution. The removal of bin Laden from the equation will be of substantial support in reaching that conclusion.

The noble Baroness was also right to say that there needs to be a political solution to the problems of Afghanistan. We have never believed that the problems of Afghanistan could be dealt with purely by the military. Indeed, the fundamental reason why we are in Afghanistan is to safeguard our national security. Our involvement in the ISAF mission is helping to deny terrorists a safe haven from which to plan attacks against us. We want the Afghanistan Government to be in control of their own security and there is now an opportunity for the Taliban to divorce itself from the work of al-Qaeda and to work towards a political goal and a political dialogue with the Afghanistan Government for the long-term interests of their people.

The noble Baroness also asked about Yemen. It is a sign, in all of the countries she mentioned, of just how much the “Arab spring”, as it is increasingly called, has spread right across North Africa and the Middle East. We welcome the Gulf Co-operation Council initiative in Yemen and we encourage the Government and the Opposition to seize the opportunity and to work hard towards finalising an agreement. The UK Government are ready to support a comprehensive national dialogue which would allow for a peaceful transition of power. We support the sovereignty of Yemen and the unity and democracy which its Government have built up in the past 30 years. Now is the time for real and credible change and the creation of a more open political system.

The noble Baroness asked whether I would confirm that everything that is being done in Libya is in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1973. I can confirm to her that that is our complete understanding of everything that has been done. Military command and control centres have been targeted and all loss of life is to be regretted. However, we cannot be responsible for those who put themselves in harm’s way. We are trying to defend and protect the interests of the civilian population in Misrata, who are being attacked by Gaddafi’s forces.

The noble Baroness asked about an Arab-Israeli resolution. She is aware of how hard in recent years all Governments have been working to try to reach a resolution to this conflict. With the death of bin Laden and the uprisings in Syria and other countries in the Middle East, it may well be that instability may also paradoxically create the right conditions to seek a more peaceful solution. We are all working together with the United States and other countries to bring that about.

Finally, the noble Baroness asked about increased vigilance. She is right: if there is one message to take out of this Statement it is that, even with the death of bin Laden, we have not defeated terrorism. Terrorism will continue and there may well be those inside al-Qaeda or other terrorist organisations who will see this as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are still active and have the ability to react in an appalling way. Vigilance will be key. I join the noble Baroness in congratulating British police and security forces on the work that they do, very often unsung, for the protections that have already taken place. I very much hope that they will succeed in doing so in the future.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, from these Benches I join the Leader of the Opposition in congratulating President Obama and US special forces on closing the chapter that started on 11 September 2001. That chapter shook the Muslim world to its very core, as well as obviously affecting the United States and other countries. We need to recall that Pakistan is an extremely fragile state. As its friend, we may not wish to question its commitment to countering terrorism but we must be clear about its capability to do so. In that context, I am extremely pleased to hear in the Statement that we will resist siren calls in the media today about maintaining our aid, practical assistance, intelligence co-operation and so on. I hope the Government will continue to be steadfast in that aim.

We must not allow friendship to withhold candid conversations about the role of the ISI and defence intelligence. My father was a member of that community, so I well know that it would have been pretty impossible for Mr bin Laden to live there undetected for as long as he did. We must also work to improve relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Peace in Afghanistan will not come if al-Qaeda or the Taliban are simply displaced to Pakistan. I hope that our Government will continue their efforts to bring the two countries into a constructive working relationship. Can my noble friend tell me if we are also working towards a resumption of dialogue between Pakistan and India? All three countries are essential if regional peace and security is to be secured in that most dangerous region.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her intelligent and thoughtful observations and questions. She is right that Pakistan is a fragile state. It also needs a great deal of support. With that support, there is no reason why in the long term Pakistan should not become a more stable and prosperous country in what has been a difficult part of the world for some years. The noble Baroness is also right that we firmly reject any siren calls about cutting our aid to Pakistan. If anything, this makes our aid programme even more important and significant. It is aimed largely at education and we believe that one way at least to improve governance and quality for people in Pakistan is to raise the standards and quality of education. Many hundreds of millions of pounds are being spent on that.

There is another reason: links between Pakistan and the United Kingdom are extremely strong. There are family groups extending between Pakistan and the United Kingdom. Thirdly, there is the whole problem of what we have seen in the past as radicalisation and the growth of home-grown terrorism in the United Kingdom. All these reasons lead us to believe that aid to Pakistan is extremely justified. I also agree with the point about India. The answer to that question is, yes, we are actively involved in trying to improve relations between India and Pakistan. Anybody who knows anything about world affairs over the past 50 years will recognise just how difficult that is but there are some causes for optimism, which I hope will grow.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

Would the noble Lord indicate in outline the instructions which have been given to the police, especially the Metropolitan Police? A great deal of uncertainty exists at present about the review which the Government propose to carry out into the numbers of the police. Do they not have an especial duty at present and is it not right that the review should be curtailed, because interference with their duties is a dereliction of duty to us?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not follow the noble Lord at all. It is true that the police have a number of challenges to face up to. They will always have those but I am extremely confident that they are able to carry out their duties. We carried out a strategic defence and security review to set out our security priorities in full; the resources allocated to the UK’s security and intelligence agencies reflect that assessment of priorities. That includes the work by the police, most importantly the Metropolitan Police.

[Lord Thomas of Swynnerton]

My Lords, it is difficult to think of a precedent for this action, carried out so successfully and competently by the American special services; I suppose there was Entebbe, carried out by the Israelis so many years ago. Bearing that in mind, were there to be similar circumstances in future with the desire to finish off an enemy in a foreign country, as there well may be, would the Government support the idea of capturing the person concerned and keeping him to be tried and brought to justice in a different way, as has happened with some war criminals in the past?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, raises an entirely legitimate question which many people will ask, particularly on the precedent for this. My view is that this was a brilliantly planned and executed operation and my understanding at this stage—no doubt we will get more information—is that there was an opportunity to surrender. It is not always possible to capture people alive. Notwithstanding that, there is of course the whole question of jurisdiction, a place of trial, et cetera. In the event, what the noble Lord suggested is not what happened and we have to live in the world as we find it. No doubt there will be questions of legality for the United States, but those are between the Pakistani authorities and the United States and I am not in a position to comment.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The Leader is right that we should rejoice at this great achievement but the focus has perhaps now moved to the Yemen. What is our view about the role of al-Qaeda in the overthrow of President Saleh and the likely degree of co-operation that we shall receive from any successor regime in the fight against it? On Libya, France has already recognised formally the new authority in Benghazi. Are we and other EU countries considering that same action? Finally, on the Palestine-Israel question, the noble Lord will know that Palestinian statehood and recognition is very much on the agenda and will reach the General Assembly of the UN in September. What preliminary consideration are we giving of our position at that time?

[Lord Strathclyde]

On that last question, my Lords, no doubt there will be much debate and discussion internally and at the Foreign Office about what our position should be in the debate that takes place in September. However, we have been an integral part of the process for many years now; it is something to which the British Government attach great importance. We wish to see a resolution, and there is an opportunity for such a resolution. The United Kingdom Government will leave no stone unturned in playing a full part in the dialogue.

The noble Lord was also interested in the question of Yemen. The UK Government are fully committed to a united Yemen with a stable and prosperous future. We continue to encourage the international community to focus its attention there. Indeed, we are one of the largest bilateral donors to Yemen and in August 2007 we signed a 10-year partnership agreement to try to help to improve the quality of life within that country.

We are deeply concerned about the growth of al-Qaeda in Yemen. The Government of Yemen have committed publicly to combating terrorism, both inside and outside Yemen, and have conducted successful operations, including against members of al-Qaeda in Yemen. We must do everything that we can to encourage that process and that success, because it is an extremely dangerous part of the world and al-Qaeda there has almost succeeded in inflicting terrorist outrages outside Yemen.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement. Like many in this House and beyond, I welcome the removal of an individual who preached hate and promoted the taking of innocent lives by hijacking a noble faith. I think Muslims around the world welcome his removal from the face of the earth.

I ask my noble friend to reflect and perhaps comment further on the point that, while the Pakistani nation—indeed, the Pakistani Government themselves—has taken steps to address terrorism and the breeding of terrorism, our Government must implore that it continues to take more stringent steps to stop those terrorist camps, including those that allegedly go under the guise of educational institutions, nurturing further terrorists who then breed not just discontent but terror around the world, indeed the kind of terror that we ourselves suffered from in this very country on 7/7.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I thank my noble friend for what he has said. I agree with his words about Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda promoting hate. I also agree with his comment that the Government of Pakistan need to be encouraged to take all steps to deal with terrorism, terrorist education and terrorist camps. Above all, the Pakistani Government are aware of the damage that terrorism has inflicted on their own country and on their own people—their civilians and their armed forces—who have worked extremely hard over the past few years and have suffered terribly.

There is an opportunity today and in the next few months for the Pakistani Government to use the death of Osama bin Laden to turn the page on the past, redouble their steps to eradicate terrorism and co-operate with international organisations and with neighbouring countries to remove this scourge from the region.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister accept my welcome for the Statement, which indicates that there could be an opportunity now to bring the Taliban into a political process, which will be valuable for all concerned in Afghanistan? In that context, will he give some study to a panel report from Mr Brahimi— he helped to set up the present Government of Afghanistan—and Ambassador Thomas Pickering, which was submitted in the United States a few weeks ago? It suggested that a key element in a political process could be appointing a facilitator who was not NATO, the US military or President Karzai, and who could help to move the process forward, perhaps under the aegis of the United Nations. I think that that is a genuinely sensible idea; it is one which Mr David Miliband has supported on a number of occasions. I hope that the Government will give that some consideration in the phase ahead.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have not read this report, but I am sure that my colleagues in the Foreign Office have. I agree with the noble Lord that there is an opportunity facing the region to use this point in time to do things differently. It is particularly an opportunity for the Taliban to cast itself away from the programme of violence of al-Qaeda and to involve itself in a political process.

The report that the noble Lord mentioned strikes me as having a very sensible objective. I shall make sure that the Foreign Office examines it.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, reverting to the very reasonable point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, does my noble friend not agree that Osama bin Laden in prison could have been an even greater danger than Osama bin Laden in hiding? Is it not entirely right, and a great relief, that he has been killed, and that he was buried in such a seemly manner so that his body cannot be the centre of a shrine?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Given that there was not much time to plan these events, I entirely agree with what my noble friend says about the burial of bin Laden’s body. It was done, I understand, fully in accordance with the teachings of Islam, and it was done quickly and effectively. As my noble friend pointed out, there is the added advantage that there is no shrine to visit for those who regard bin Laden as a leader.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, can the Leader of the House add to the Statement in relation to Syria? The Statement did not, I think, refer to Syria, where over the weekend there have been some very alarming reports not only about the targeting of unarmed civilians on the streets of its towns but also, just as alarming, about the arrest of young men between the ages of 15 and 40 who seem to have been taken away and put in places without their families being given any information about what has happened to them.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I welcome the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean. She is right to mention Syria, where there is an immensely serious and developing situation. We call for an immediate end to attacks against civilians by the Syrian security forces. The Syrian authorities and their forces should comply with their obligations under international law, international humanitarian law and human rights law, including protecting civilians and meeting their basic needs. We ask President Assad to order his authorities to show restraint and to respond to the legitimate demands of his people with immediate and genuine reform, not with brutal repression. We really do want to see acts of genuine reform and not repression. We are keeping a very close eye on developments in what is clearly a fast-moving picture. There is every opportunity, and time, for President Assad to change the direction of his forces and try to seek an opportunity for genuine reform in Syria, which is an extremely important country.

[Lord Maples]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that our aid programme and friendly relationship with Pakistan must continue. However, these events will alter that relationship and that of the United States with Pakistan, which is perhaps more important. First, I suspect there will be turmoil in Pakistan over what has happened and the death of Osama bin Laden, which may well lead to the fall of the Government.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly from an American or British point of view, my noble friend said that we will get to the bottom of what happened. However, it seems inconceivable that, without at least the tacit approval of some elements of the Pakistani state, Osama bin Laden could have survived for so long, living in the way that he did in a town less than 100 miles from Islamabad. When we get to the bottom of that, it will almost certainly confirm what many of us have suspected for ages—that elements of the Pakistani state are extremely friendly to the Afghan Taliban. They may want to fight the Taliban operating in Pakistan, but they make a distinction for the Afghan Taliban and are more friendly to it. This will be caught red-handed. Pakistan, whatever its Government, must now be confronted with this problem if we are to continue our friendly relationship with it in an effort to exterminate terrorism from that part of the world and from our own.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, because of the problems that my noble friend pointed out, it is vital for the United Kingdom to maintain and increase the closeness of the relationship between our country and Pakistan. After all, this is a shared fight—a fight against global terrorism in which Pakistan finds itself on the front line. It is right to record that the Government of Pakistan have formally welcomed the news of the death of bin Laden. The question of who knew what will unfold over the next few weeks and months. With that clarity, no doubt different people will take different views. What does not change is that Pakistan needs a great deal of support, which the United Kingdom is happy to give.

Clerk of the Parliaments

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

To resolve that this House has received with sincere regret the announcement of the retirement of Mr Michael Graham Pownall from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence and integrity with which the said Michael Graham Pownall has executed the important duties of his office.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, on 8 November last year, I informed the House that Mr Michael Pownall had announced his intention of retiring from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments with effect from 15 April this year. I indicated at the time that in due course there would be an opportunity to pay tribute to Mr Pownall.

Some Members will know that, by convention, the retiring Clerk of the Parliaments makes sure to absent himself from the Chamber for this part of our proceedings. Those who were well acquainted with Mr Pownall will not be surprised to hear that it was his ardent wish to go one step further and to ensure that he had left the estate for good by the time the House dwelt on his achievements. In that respect and in many others, he led those who serve us in this House by example. In the self-effacing manner in which he performed his duties, he helped to sustain the fiction, carefully crafted by successor generations of servants of this House, that we, the Members of this House, are solely responsible for its actions and achievements. Such a wonderful and convincing tale they have woven that I, for one, have never had occasion to doubt it.

Michael also led by example in the unfailing courtesy that he displayed towards Members of the House. Imposing as we are in our collective guise, one might concede that there are some formidable individuals among our number, yet if ever the Clerk of the Parliaments shared this perception, he did not let it show. His advice was invariably delivered patiently and with good grace. There is no Member for whom he would not make time and no predicament he would have dismissed as unworthy of his assistance.

Mr Pownall’s tenure as Clerk of the Parliaments marked the culmination of 40 years of service to this House. In that time, he held every important post, including that of private secretary to the Leader of the House and the Government Chief Whip when those positions were occupied by Lord Soames, Baroness Young and the noble Lord, Lord Denham. As well as serving the first woman Leader of this House, Mr Pownall is known to have distinguished himself during that period by bravely drawing our minimum intervals to the attention of the then Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher.

In recent years, Michael served as Reading Clerk and Clerk Assistant before being appointed Clerk of the Parliaments in 2007. When assuming that august office, he could not have anticipated the twists and turns that events would take. His term coincided with the removal of the similarly venerable appellate jurisdiction of this House, with allegations of paid advocacy that prompted the House to revive its powers of suspension, and with a press campaign that exposed serious abuses of the financial support available to Members of both Houses, some of which have since led to prosecutions and criminal convictions. These have been testing times for the House—times which placed unprecedented demand on the Clerk of the Parliaments’ judgment, integrity and resilience. I am confident that I speak for the whole House when I say that in more dispiriting moments it was a great solace to know with absolute and distinctive certainty that Mr Pownall would not be found wanting on any of these counts.

Michael leaves behind a more resilient institution—one equipped with a new Code of Conduct for Members, an independent Commissioner for Standards and a simpler and more transparent system of financial support for Members. He leaves behind a legacy that I am sure will stand the test of time. That legacy alone would have been sufficient to earn Mr Pownall a place among the most accomplished of his predecessors. But there is no rest for the wig-wearing, and more upheaval was in store for the Clerk of the Parliaments. The general election only a year ago, in 2010, saw the first change of Government for 13 years and the first coalition Government since the Second World War. The speed and dexterity with which the needs of coalition Government were anticipated and catered for is of immense credit to Mr Pownall and his staff. Their planning, pragmatism and good grace allowed the strange and unaccustomed to be overcome and innovation of one day to become the tradition of the next.

There are, of course, more achievements that I could list and I trust that some of them will be mentioned by others, but the pinnacle of them all, perhaps, is that Mr Pownall succeeded in notching up his manifold achievements while holding together the unruly flock that is the House. He is not only respected and admired but held in sincere and lasting affection around the House and at all levels of the administration. That is why I very much hope that, although he may be intending to while away his retirement in Italy, the lure of the deep red carpet, the Pugin interiors and our collective good sense will prove too strong and we will see him in the House again from time to time.

It remains for me only to wish Michael and his wife Deborah many enjoyable years ahead. We are greatly indebted to him for the exemplary service which he has rendered to this House and to Parliament. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it gives me enormous pleasure on behalf of the Opposition to second the Motion moved by the Leader of the House. I associate myself and my Benches with all that the noble Lord has said about the recently retired Clerk of the Parliaments, Michael Pownall.

Michael’s long service to your Lordships’ House, his diligence and commitment to his work and, at the same time, his reticence and modesty are all qualities from which the House has enormously benefited. It is characteristic of Michael’s modesty that he somehow managed to contrive to retire during the recess while the House was not sitting, but we will not let him get away without paying tribute in the Chamber to all that he has done for the House and for the Members of this House. It is characteristic too, though, that even after leaving the job Michael Pownall will still be doing it because he has to return to give further evidence in court proceedings being brought against Members of this House, and it is on these issues that I wish to focus. In paying an overall tribute to the former Clerk, the Leader mentioned that he could only touch on Michael’s role in dealing with the difficult issues with which this House has had to deal in the past few years. For most of that time I was in the noble Lord’s place as Leader of the House, which gave me a particular perspective on Michael, and it is from that perspective that I shall address the substance of my remarks today.

Parliament has had a bad time of it over this period: we have seen a scandal erupt; we have seen a media frenzy; we have seen the standing of Parliament lowered; we have seen trust eroded; we have seen Parliament fail the British people. In all this, your Lordships' House has not been impacted on to the same degree and extent as the House of Commons, but it has none the less been seriously affected. As the noble Lord the Leader said, we have as a result reformed our procedures radically. In all this, at every point, was Michael Pownall. I tell your Lordships this quite plainly: whatever difficulties this House has been in, they would have been worse, so very much worse, if Michael Pownall had not been in his job. At every moment, in every aspect of the issues involved, Michael was centrally involved not only in dealing with them but with stretching himself and his team to find ways of resolving them.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Hollick set down for today shall be limited to three and a half hours and that in the name of Lord Turnberg to two hours.

Motion agreed.

Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debate on the motion in the name of Lord Lawson of Blaby set down for today shall be limited to four-and-a-half hours.

Motion agreed.

Draft Defamation Bill

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That it is expedient that a joint committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft Defamation Bill presented to both Houses on 15 March (Cm 8020) and that the committee should report on the draft Bill by 19 July 2011.

Motion agreed.

Code of Recommended Practice on Local Authority Publicity

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the order of 10 March referring the Code of Recommended Practice to a Grand Committee be discharged.

Motion agreed.

Libya

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now make a Statement about Libya in order to bring the House up to date, in light of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, the Prime Minister’s Statement to the other place of Friday 18 March and events that have taken place over the weekend.

It is now almost a month since the people of Libya first took to the streets to make clear their wish for a regime that is free of oppression and corruption. Since those initial protests, we have seen the situation deteriorate and the violence increase. In response to the need to protect vulnerable citizens, the UK has played a leading role in delivering EU action and UNSC resolutions.

On 23 February, the UN Secretary-General described the reported nature and scale of attacks on civilians as,

“egregious violations of international and human rights law”,

and called on the Government of Libya to,

“meet its responsibility to protect its people”.

He said later that more than 1,000 people had been killed and many more had been injured in Libya amid credible and consistent reports of arrests, detention and torture.

At the end of February, and at Britain’s instigation, the UN Security Council agreed Resolution 1970 to bring in asset freezes and a travel ban for Gaddafi’s top officials. Accordingly, the Foreign Secretary removed the exemption from UK immigration control that applied previously to Gaddafi, as head of state, and members of his household, thus preventing them from entering the UK. The Government also took action to freeze the assets of Gaddafi, members of his family, people acting on their behalf, and entities owned or controlled by them. We have prohibited the export of uncirculated Libyan banknotes without a licence from the UK.

The EU Council decision and regulation, adopted on 3 March, extended the scope of the travel ban and asset freeze to include additional individuals subject to EU measures. On 11 March, the European Council issued a declaration on developments in Libya, in which EU leaders called on Gaddafi to “relinquish power immediately”, as his regime had “lost all legitimacy”, and agreed to work with the UN, the Arab League, the African Union and international partners in responding to the crisis.

There has also been a clear desire by the international community to see Gaddafi’s regime held to account for its actions. On 1 March, Libya was suspended from the UN Human Rights Council. The UK was also instrumental in referring Gaddafi and his regime to the International Criminal Court, which opened its investigation on 3 March. Despite repeated calls to end their violence and, as the UN Secretary-General put it, for the Government of Libya to,

“meet its responsibility to protect its people”,

we saw only an escalation of state violence and an ever growing number of civilian casualties. We therefore supported the UN in a call for an immediate ceasefire and, if one were not forthcoming, for action to protect the civilian population.

A no-fly zone was authorised by UN Resolution 1973 on 17 March 2011. The resolution also called for an immediate ceasefire, an end to the violence, measures to make it more difficult to bring mercenaries into Libya and the tightening of sanctions. It also authorised the use of all necessary measures to protect the civilian population, including in Benghazi. Unfortunately, the Gaddafi regime did not heed this resolution and continued, and indeed stepped up, brutal military action against its own citizens over the following days, while pretending in public to be implementing a ceasefire. Therefore, on 19 March, a summit for support for the Libyan people was convened in Paris by President Sarkozy. It was attended by France, the UK, the USA, Spain, Germany, Canada, Qatar, Poland, Denmark, Italy, Greece, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, the League of Arab States, Iraq, the UAE, Jordan and Morocco, as well as the UN and EU. Leaders agreed to,

“act collectively and resolutely to give effect”,

to UNSCR 1973 and called on Gaddafi and his forces to,

“immediately end all acts of violence carried out against civilians, to withdraw from all areas they have entered by force, return to their compounds and allow full humanitarian access”.

Following that, on the evening of 19 March, UK Armed Forces under the authority of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 participated in a co-ordinated strike against Libyan air defence systems. The UK launched guided Tomahawk land-attack missiles from a Trafalgar class submarine. The RAF also launched Storm Shadow missiles from a number of Tornado GR4 fast jets, which flew direct from RAF Marham as part of a co-ordinated coalition plan to begin the international community’s enforcement of the Security Council resolution. HMS “Westminster” is currently off the coast of Libya and HMS “Cumberland” is in the region, ready to support operations.

Gaddafi made a television statement late on 19 March, in which he criticised military action and asked the Security Council and the international community for an “immediate” stop to the hostilities. Gaddafi claimed:

“Libya will be practising its right of self-defence according to clause 51 of the UN Charter”,

and threatened that,

“civilian and military targets in the air and sea will be liable to serious danger in the Mediterranean”.

UK and partner forces remain engaged in ongoing operations as we seek to ensure that Colonel Gaddafi and his forces understand that the international community will not stand by and watch them continue to kill civilians.

I am sure that all Members of the House will join me in expressing pride in our Armed Forces and admiration for the bravery and expertise of our service men and women as they complete their difficult work. We also pay tribute to the continuing work of British officials both at home and abroad as they, too, complete their tasks.

I want to make it clear that these are efforts to protect the Libyan population as called for by many Libyans throughout the country including the Libyan opposition, with whom we are in regular contact. The Libyan population wants freedom from oppression and to be able to choose its leaders. As the Prime Minister has said,

“what we are doing is necessary, it is legal, and it is right. It is necessary because, with others, we should be trying to prevent him”—

Gaddafi—

“using his military against his own people. It is legal, because we have the backing of the United Nations Security Council and also of the Arab League and many others. And it is right because we believe we should not stand aside while this dictator murders his own people”.

I will ensure that the Government keep the House updated as the situation develops.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I begin with what the noble Baroness said in her closing remarks. We are witnessing, right across the Middle East, a great period of change. We are witnessing events sometimes changing very quickly on our television screens, dealing with frustrations that have built up over a long period. In each country these are manifested in different ways and may well end in different destinations. It is difficult for us to see exactly what those will be. Our role is to encourage the aspirations of individual countries’ peoples to be met and to enable change, where it happens, to be as peaceful as possible and provide for the long-term sustainability of individual nations.

I thank the noble Baroness for her reply and the way in which she expressed it. I thank her particularly for supporting the action that the Government have taken. She is completely right: this House should debate these great issues. The House was not sitting on Friday when the Statement was taken in another place and the usual channels deemed it too short notice to provide for a debate at the same time as the debate in another place. Through the usual channels we will continue to provide time for short debates and Statements, as they arise. If there is a need for a wider debate—I suspect that there will be—we will make time available for that and let the House know. Like the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition, I think that we should do that relatively soon—perhaps towards the end of next week.

The noble Baroness said that we needed to be clear about the purpose of this action and that there should be clear parliamentary scrutiny. I entirely agree with her. The purpose of this House is not only to inform another place but to inform the Government of the views of this House.

What has Colonel Gaddafi been doing and how has he breached Security Council Resolution 1973? Since Saturday evening, it is clear to us that Colonel Gaddafi’s forces launched an attack on Benghazi, shelling residential suburbs. There have been air strikes by the US, the UK and France to enforce the no-fly zone. I can announce to the House today that coalition forces have largely neutralised Libyan air defences and that, as a result, a no-fly zone has effectively been put in place over Libya. However, Colonel Gaddafi’s forces launched artillery and tank bombardments against Misurata over the weekend of 19 to 20 March, causing dozens of injuries and damage to electricity and water supplies. Under these circumstances, we are utterly clear about the legal basis for military action and the fact that the UN Security Council resolution has been comprehensively broken. Our strategy is, therefore, to enforce that resolution.

This action is being taken primarily to protect the civilian population in Libya. Regime change is no part of our objective, although we have made it clear, through the Prime Minister and as a Government, that we believe that Colonel Gaddafi no longer has the support and confidence of his people. I can also confirm that Colonel Gaddafi is not a target, as the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Richards, told the BBC. He said:

“It’s not allowed under the UN resolution”.

I believe that that is entirely in accordance with all that the Secretary of State for Defence has said.

I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness said about the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, who has performed a difficult task under difficult circumstances. I know that she has the wholehearted support of this House.

The question is raised: who is running this military operation and what is NATO’s role? In other words, who is in charge? The operation is currently under US command, with high-profile French and UK involvement as well as close co-ordination with a range of other countries, including Arab states. We continue to discuss with partners the arrangements for the next phase of this military operation. Over the short term, we want a transition to NATO command of military operations as quickly as is feasible. That is also Turkey’s aim. We are working hard to get decisions in NATO to enable this to happen as fast as possible.

The noble Baroness asked a series of questions, some of which are hypothetical. For instance, she asked what happens next. It is very difficult to picture exactly what the next course of action will be, but we know that it will be a difficult and dangerous road ahead. We cannot determine the exact course of events. However, we are clear that already we have saved civilian lives from the violence of their own regime. We have prevented the fall of Benghazi, which is a substantial city of more than 1 million residents, and we believe that Libyan people have a better chance of determining their own destiny than before.

We are clear about the meaning of the Security Council resolution: “all necessary” force in enforcing the no-fly zone and protecting civilians means exactly that, but it does not mean that we can put military forces on the ground. We do not believe that that is allowable under the Security Council resolution.

I have said that we will have an opportunity to debate this. I will continue to update the House, as will my colleagues. The noble Baroness also made an interesting suggestion that we as a Government might be able to offer briefings to interested Peers. I would very much like to offer that. My noble friends Lord Howell of Guildford and Lord Astor of Hever will make time for interested Peers to be kept abreast of events as they unfold. Through the usual channels, we will find a way of bringing that to the attention of the House.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister accept my thanks for the way that the Government have acted by putting down that resolution at the Security Council at the key moment? Will the Government give some consideration to getting the Security Council to authorise putting Libya’s oil resources into an escrow account and making a proportion of that account roughly proportionate to the size of the part of Libya that is under the control of the insurgents available to them for civil purposes? That, as the noble Lord will remember, was what happened in Iraq in 1991. It successfully supported the survival of the Kurdish part of Iraq, without in any way altering our respect for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of that country. That would be a way in which the insurgents could be helped. When dealing with some Governments around the world who have expressed doubts or even criticism of what we have done, will the Minister remind them that every single one of them subscribed in 2005 to the doctrine of the responsibility to protect? Will he ask them fairly robustly what they would do now to protect the civilians of Libya?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have noted previously that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, brings his considerable experience and knowledge to bear in this House. It is immensely useful that he does so at this time. I very much welcome his words about the United Kingdom and France putting down the key resolution, and doing so at the right time—some would say in the nick of time. Certainly, if it had happened 24 hours later, we might have faced a very different situation in Libya.

The noble Lord makes an interesting suggestion—one that is based on precedent—about the oil resources and an escrow account. All these matters are under consideration in the United Nations and, of course, in the Security Council and in individual member states. As the noble Lord points out, such a measure would respect the integrity of international borders.

On the criticism of some countries, the words of the noble Lord stand. They will be read and should be repeated to those countries that have sat by while so many others have done the work. In due course, the world will re-evaluate those who stood by and would have let a cataclysm occur in Benghazi.

[Lord St John of Fawsley]

My Lords, on behalf of all Back-Benchers in the House, perhaps I may express admiration for our gallant troops of both sexes in the war. It is not necessary for everybody to take up valuable time with that statement, so perhaps I may take it on myself to express it. Secondly, will the Minister use his influence to persuade the Prime Minister, who is universally and rightly recognised as a master of diplomacy, to use that gift to persuade as many Arab states as possible to come out openly in favour of this international coalition? What the Prime Minister has achieved permanently—I hope that the Minister will agree—is to make international affairs part of the national interest. Perhaps he or another senior Minister will write to Mr Tony Blair and quote the words of a great Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, who wrote to Harold Laski, then chairman of the Labour Party:

“A period of silence from you would be most welcome”.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join my noble friend, as I know the House does, in paying tribute to our troops who have reacted immensely quickly to the challenges put upon them and who even now are in action or redeploying—particularly the RAF—to a new forward base in southern Italy. My noble friend encouraged me to use my influence with the Prime Minister to urge him to encourage Arab states to stay on board. The Prime Minister needs absolutely no encouragement from me. He is actively involved in this work and is speaking by telephone to members of the Arab League continually. There were stories yesterday in the news that the Arab League was withdrawing its support because of civilian casualties. I can confirm that that is not the case. The Secretary-General, Amr Moussa, said:

“It is for the Security Council to take decisions as it sees fit. What we did in the Arab League is make an official request to impose a no-fly zone on military activities against the Libyan people”.

In creating these alliances and coalitions, a lot of people need to be brought together. This needs continual diplomatic work and the Prime Minister is at the forefront of that.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, perhaps I may carry on that theme by suggesting to the Leader of the House that it is not a question just of the Arab League giving diplomatic support. Will he assure the House that we will ensure that the Arab League takes part militarily in the operation—the more members, the better—and that if it does not, and if we find that Arab support evaporates, we will think very hard about extricating ourselves from this military action?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an extremely good point. Qatar is sending military assistance. We anticipate further assistance from other Arab League members, although we are currently not in a position to say what form this will take. Arab partners made it clear that if the action was authorised by a Security Council resolution, they would contribute military assets. We are continuing to discuss this with them and to lobby our partners to contribute to a coalition force from both NATO and the wider international community.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, we on this side support the credible and convincing case made by the Prime Minister in the other place. The legality of the action is not in question, because the systematic slaughter and violation of international and human rights law by Gaddafi against his own population demand action. The protection of civilians must be the top priority as the collateral damage would be exploited by Gaddafi. Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord three pertinent questions. The first concerns his statement about Amr Moussa’s interpretation of Resolution 1973. Are we absolutely sure that at this stage he understands our position? Is he able to help us, as Qatar is doing, in terms of military action against Gaddafi? Secondly, the role of the African Union should not be underestimated, particularly when mercenaries from some African countries are being used by Gaddafi. We still have to face the question of the large number of refugees who are now on the borders of Libya. Thirdly, the exit strategy must be clearly stated. Irrespective of the fate of the Libyan dictator, the solution must remain a matter for the Libyan people.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his opening remark that the legality is not in question. He is right in that. We have received the clearest possible advice on the legal basis. The Security Council resolution is extremely clear without any ambiguity and the breaking of that resolution is equally clear. I also agree with my noble friend that the most vital aspect of the work taking place under the auspices of that Security Council resolution is the protection of civilians in Libya. Within that, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord West, the support of the Arab League and the African Union is also extremely important. Diplomatic efforts are being vigorously carried out across the world. Finally, my noble friend asked about the exit strategy. We have made it very clear for a long time that we believe that Colonel Gaddafi has lost the support and confidence of his people. However, in the first place, we wish to see peace and for the people of Benghazi to be able to go about their lives in a peaceful manner. We will review the situation from time to time and will see how events unfold in the days and weeks ahead.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, this episode, if I may call it that, which has given rise to discussion today, is characteristic of the unpredictability of foreign affairs and it indicates the way in which something very alarming has to be addressed urgently. I hope that the House will join me in welcoming the caution, comprehensiveness, clarity and courage with which this problem has been addressed, as well as our satisfaction that there is anything but complacency about it. We shall need to be careful and watchful. However, we can express great confidence in the decisions taken so far and extend our strongest support for the continuation of this approach to the problem.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I very much welcome what my noble and learned friend has said with all his experience and knowledge not just as a former Foreign Secretary but as someone who has witnessed many different international crises and events over a long period. I assure him that there is no complacency and I know that he understands that. I very much welcome his continued support and encouragement. I hope that he will avail himself of any briefing that we can offer so as to keep himself entirely up to speed.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, it is immensely reassuring that the Government are showing determination that our courageous service men and women should operate within the context of international law and under the authority of the Security Council. I am sure that there is widespread support for that determination on the part of the Government. However, does the noble Lord agree that, ultimately, the long-term stability of Libya and of other Arab countries is dependent on the people being in control of their own destiny? It is their struggle and they have to find the solutions; and whether or not there should be regime change is in their hands. Is it not, therefore, essential for us to avoid at all costs being directly or indirectly seduced into what could be seen as political manipulation of the situation? Can the noble Lord also say a word about the predicament of the large number of refugees, many of whom are, in effect, stateless?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I welcome what the noble Lord has said about us operating within the context of international law and with the full support of a UN Security Council resolution. The noble Lord is also entirely correct in talking about long-term stability being in the hands of the Libyan people. If the western powers—perhaps I can put it as loosely as that—were seen to be imposing some kind of solution on Libya, it would not work. I totally agree with what the noble Lord said: the future of Libya must lie in the hands of its people and they must decide how best to run their affairs. That is part of what all this is about: by protecting civilians, we give the people the ability to have a choice to aspire to change, as has happened more peacefully in other parts of the Middle East.

The noble Lord also asked about humanitarian aid for those who find themselves stateless. I suspect that that could easily become a growing problem but DfID has played a key role and has already provided tens of thousands of blankets, more than 1,400 family tents and charter planes which have returned more than 6,000 people to their countries. The number of arrivals in transit camps is now falling; as of 20 March, some 5,874 people remain at the transit camp and DfID, with many other partners, is continuing to work to reduce the number.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, if Gaddafi were to disappear from the scene tomorrow, he would leave behind him a non-functional community, and no continued imposition of a no-fly zone would of itself give any real protection at all to that community? In the circumstances, does he agree that the temptation may be very great for land forces to be used to bring about that very result? Will he endorse something that I think he has already touched on, in so far as Her Majesty's Government’s interpretation of the relevant resolution is concerned—after all it is a political and not a judicial decision—that he would abjure completely the possibility of land troops being used?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, however desirable it would be for Colonel Gaddafi to disappear tomorrow, I can confirm that this country will not be tempted to use land forces to bring that about.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords, perhaps I can invite the Minister to clarify that point which might be open to misunderstanding. Although it is true that the UN Security Council resolution forbids or does not cover any invasion or occupation, there is nothing in that resolution which would inhibit us using military assets to do something like rescue a downed pilot.

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, I regard that as a very different point and I am able to clarify that to my noble friend.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, the House has heard an admirably clear account of how we got here. I was not as convinced by the way in which the noble Lord brushed aside the question of where we go next. I agree that it is hard to predict the future, but it is good to know where you want to go; that is called having war aims. It seems to me that, as of today, the analogy is with the first Iraq war when we had, as now, a very clear legal base in a Security Council resolution—new and specific—and we had widespread support in the region and in the Muslim world generally. I believe that that is the case now; I hope that it is. We also had very clear war aims. We were going to restore the independence of Kuwait. Therefore, the exit strategy was absolutely clear.

This time, it is so important to retain the support of the Muslim world and the Middle East that it is crucial that the Prime Minister, who moved with admirable speed last week, should move no less fast this week to agree war aims with the Defence Secretary and the Foreign Secretary, across the Government, with Paris and Washington and our other NATO partners and across the Middle East, so that we are clear where it is we want to go. I hope that the noble Lord will pass that message on.

[Lord Strathclyde]

That is a good point well made. The comparison with the clarity of the Gulf War involving Kuwait is a good one, but the timing was so different. We were faced last week with the possible annihilation of opposition forces in Benghazi. I accept the noble Lord’s implied criticism, which I know is meant in a constructive and friendly way, that clear objectives are harder to define. I hasten to add that I hope that I did not brush over that too much. The fact that we have saved civilian lives from the violence of their own regime already is a success and an objective. Enforcing the no-fly zone by damaging Libyan anti-aircraft assets is already a significant change. That means that coalition forces can fly over Libya to enforce the no-fly zone. We believe that that will lead to the Libyan people having a better chance of determining their own destiny than before.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords—

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[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend. As someone who has been involved in Anglo-Libyan commercial relations for the past five or six years, I have, needless to say, received with the greatest distress what has been happening in Libya in recent weeks: the wholesale slaughter of civilians and the wounding of a great many more. I am bound to say, therefore, that I very much agree with the action that the Government took first at the United Nations and then in joining the military operations of recent days.

However, we have to be careful about the objectives that we are seeking, both military and political. The military objectives are surely simply to pave the way towards the political objectives; and the political objective seems clear, which is to provide for the people of Libya an opportunity to choose for themselves in a free and fair way who should be their leaders.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I acknowledge my noble friend’s great understanding of Anglo-Libyan relations. I thank him for his support of the actions of Her Majesty's Government. I particularly agree with the clarity with which he put the objective, which is to provide for the people of Libya to choose their own future and political destiny.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The noble Lord said that the primary objective is the protection of civilians. Surely under the terms of the UN Security Council resolution, that is the only objective, however tempted one might be to go further along that road and intervene in a civil war on one side or the other. The noble Lord has heard the concern about the position of the Arab League: unless and until it goes beyond words to action, there will be strains within the coalition. I hope that, with the Government, he will seek to impress on the Arab League that more is expected of it than just brave words and that it should be with us all the way.

Will the noble Lord say a little about the position of countries, perhaps in the Arab League, seeking to provide arms to the rebels? Does the UN arms embargo apply to both sides or would it be legitimate under international law for countries to provide arms to the rebels?

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made it clear that there is very limited civil society in Libya. The European Union is experienced in providing and buttressing civil society and in providing aid, but clearly Arab nations will have to take the lead. Can the Minister give an assurance that we in the European Union are urgently looking at means of providing aid on political, economic and social infrastructure to help Libya look to a brighter future?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises useful and interesting questions. Under the Security Council resolution, there are two clear objectives. The first is to protect civilians and the second is to enforce the no-fly zone. They are enormously interrelated, but we believe that protecting civilians is a key objective. We have already discussed the wider coalition, the alliance across different nations and groups, including the Arab League. The Arab League has confirmed that it would be willing to offer military support, and I am sure that some members of it will do so.

The arms embargo is for the nation of Libya as a whole. Therefore, any arms shipped to the opposition or to rebel groups would be illegal under the Security Council resolution. On the EU role post conflict, I, too, believe that the EU has a substantial role to play. No doubt there are those within the EU working on how that might work in practice. It could only work with co-operation. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who talked about working in co-operation with the Muslim world. I agree with both noble Lords on that point.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House share my concern that in an increasingly volatile region there are already those who for their own ends are using somewhat inflammatory language and trying to construct a religious narrative around these unfolding events? In this account, a vulnerable Islamic population is being subjected to an opportunistic attack by a powerful Christian West. Not only does such a narrative have the power to destabilise the wider Middle East region, but it could impact very negatively on community relations in this country. Does this not underline the point that has already been made about the need not only to continue to work with but to retain the confidence of the council of the Arab League? Will the Leader talk about other ways in which the Government might be attempting to counter such a narrative and deny it the currency that it could begin to gain that would be so damaging to intercommunity relations here?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter raises some extremely important points. We will have all seen in the press and on our television those who have used inflammatory language for their own ends. There is no religious angle here whatever. This country and the United Nations are motivated by a humanitarian desire to bring some sort of peace and opportunity to the people of Libya. The best way for us to put that message across, including to communities in this country, is to repeat it and to explain what is really happening. It is a very human approach across humanity that crosses religious boundaries that we should seek to work together to bring peace and stability to this region.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, given that it has taken 28 minutes for a Muslim, and indeed a woman, to get in on these questions, I wonder whether I, coming from the Muslim world, may ask my noble friend whether he agrees that, had we stood by and done nothing, it would have appeared to the 1.5 billion people in the Muslim world that our warm words were hypocrisy of the most egregious order.

My noble friend dealt with the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, by saying that he thought that the arms embargo applied to every entity in Libya. I refer him to Paragraph 4 of UN Resolution 1973, which seems to indicate that it is possible, under protecting civilians and civilian-populated areas, notwithstanding Paragraph 9 of UN Resolution 1970, for people to participate in giving armed assistance to the insurgents. Will he say whether the Government are talking to the Gulf Co-operation Council states to help financially, even if they are not prepared to do so militarily?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her useful intervention. She is quite right to talk about what would have happened if we had stood by and a massacre had taken place and about the countries and the peoples who would have accused us of allowing it to happen without raising a hand in protest.

My noble friend also talked about the Security Council resolution. My answer to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, is also correct and allows me to clarify the position. As I understand it, arms may be supplied, but—this is key—only with the express approval of the United Nations Security Council sanctions committee. That is a key hurdle. There is no ability simply to arm different parts of Libya at will; it has to be done with the agreement of the United Nations.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

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[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. He mentioned that the Libyan air defence system had been knocked out—an essential prerequisite for setting up a no-fly zone. The cost of doing that is not inconsiderable; Tomahawks check out at about £500,000, and Sky Shadows for not much less. Hopefully there will be no need to use so many of those weapons in the future. Nevertheless, the cost already of these operations and the ongoing cost will not be inconsiderable. Will the Minister confirm that these costs will be met entirely from the contingency fund and not from the defence vote?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, much as I would like to, I cannot confirm that to the noble and gallant Lord. I can, however, confirm again that the air defences have been broadly knocked out. Of course the noble and gallant Lord, with all his considerable experience, understands the cost of these arms, but this is the kind of action that we would expect our Armed Forces to be able to deal with. If costs escalate substantially over the next few weeks, no doubt the Secretary of State for Defence and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will need to discuss where this money will come from.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord referred to resources. Since the primary purpose of this is the protection of civilians, and since the regime is the biggest threat to civilians, in the absence of either a change of heart by the regime, which seems highly improbable, or a change of regime, we have to consider that this no-fly zone might be sustained for the long term as necessary. In Iraq, for instance, to protect the Kurds in the north and the Marsh Arabs in the south, one such zone lasted for 12 years. Will the noble Lord assure us that the Government not only have the resolve to stay the course on this but, following some of the comments that have just been made, that we have the resources to continue to play our part in it in the light of the recent defence review?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Reid, asks an immensely good question. He is right to say that it might be for the long term, and none of us can say at this stage what the long term is. We have taken decisions over the course of the past few weeks on the need for a no-fly zone and we have constructed an international alliance. We will wish to maintain that and to get other countries to provide military assets. If we are successful in doing so then there is every reason to believe that the pressure that is being brought on the regime will prove a success. I think that all noble Lords listening to this exchange will have different views about what “long term” will mean. We will have to see how these events unfold before we can take a final decision on what the longest-term commitment from the United Kingdom will be.

[Lord Chidgey]

My Lords, if we are to learn the lessons of Iraq, is it not essential that, during the operations currently under way, we do everything that we can to protect the power stations, the water supply, sanitation—all the public sector infrastructure? In that context can the noble Lord tell us whether our cross-government stabilisation unit—not just DfID but also, across departments, the FCO and the MoD—is at the heart of the medium and long-term stabilisation planning? Is the stabilisation planning feeding into the decision-making now? We learnt from Iraq that it has to be a current process, not a past idea. Finally, will the UN lead stabilisation efforts in the medium and long term? We should play our part but, clearly, this needs to be an international concern.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that this is a concern. Of course, what has been happening is that it is Colonel Gaddafi and his troops and other armed forces who have been causing such difficulty and damage to electricity and water supplies, particularly in the town of Misurata. It is no part of the coalition’s objective to try to degrade those kinds of not just economic but humanitarian assets.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, as regards Security Council Resolution 1973, would not the Leader of the House also agree that the decision of China two weeks ago to support the referral of Colonel Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court firmly puts human rights at the heart of this issue? In that regard, the Leader said in the Statement that Libya has been suspended from the United Nations Human Rights Council. Does he agree that it something of a paradox that a country that was responsible for the killing of WPC Fletcher, responsible for the Lockerbie bombing and responsible for the atrocities now being committed against its own citizens was ever a member of that body in the first place? As we come to review the membership of the Human Rights Council, should we not also review our arms policies? British arms are not only being used now in this theatre in Libya but also being deployed elsewhere in the Middle East against pro-democracy demonstrators.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord says that it is a paradox and he is entirely right—it is a paradox. We remember not only WPC Fletcher and the atrocity of Lockerbie but also the years of support for the IRA perpetrated by Colonel Gaddafi. We have a very robust arms policy in place. As I know the noble Lord believes and clearly understands, the aim of that policy is to keep continually under review what is exported and to which country it is exported.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, 95 per cent of Libya’s export earnings come from oil and gas, and 75 per cent of all Libyan oil is exported to western Europe. Surely the issue of oil flows and the destination of revenue must be a consideration in the mind of Governments when key decisions are taken on the way to proceed. We have a lot at stake in terms of oil.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, our overriding objective is to protect the civilian population in Libya; that is the purpose of the action that we have taken. But the noble Lord is right to say that regimes can be sustained by their revenues, including those from oil. This question is in the mind not only of the Government but of the United Nations.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Will my right honourable and noble friend bear in mind that very serious allegations have been made from within Libya that Colonel Gaddafi had foreknowledge of the Lockerbie outrage before it occurred? Will he also keep in mind that the Lord Advocate in Scotland has said that she may consider reopening the Lockerbie case?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is extremely important and valuable. I am sure that it is entirely right for the Lord Advocate in Scotland to keep the case closely under review.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, following the questions put by my noble friend Lord Reid and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, has any thought been given to British aircraft operating from bases in France? At present, they have to make a 3,000-mile round trip.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, British aircraft are currently relocating to bases in southern Italy.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, while no one envies the grave task of my noble friend and my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in wrestling with these great decisions, can he confirm that the UN Security Council resolution was supported by only 10 members out of 15? The five countries that abstained included the likes of India, Germany and Brazil. Their reservations were that they felt that diplomatic channels had not been exhausted; that there was a risk that this action would galvanise support behind Gaddafi; and that military action would also pose a risk to civilians.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, different countries take different decisions at different times. No country voted against the Security Council resolution; 10 out of 15 voted in favour, and only nine votes were required for it to be carried. Events as they unfold demonstrate that it was right to take military action over the course of the weekend and to protect civilians on the ground.