Draft Financial Services Bill
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft Financial Services Bill presented to both Houses on 16 June (Cm 8083) and that the committee should report on the draft Bill by 1 December 2011.
House of Lords: Reform
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That this House takes note of the Government’s proposals for reform of the House of Lords set out in Cm 8077.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am sure that all will agree that this is a special occasion. The House and the Galleries are full and there is an air of expectation. While some noble Lords may feel that 100 speakers during the course of the next two days is too much for them, I know that by 10 o’clock tomorrow evening we will be as fresh and as inspired by the speeches that we have heard as we are now.
Over these past few days I have been gently teased by noble Lords and others, who have speculated as to how many speeches will be in support of the Government’s position. However, as a veteran of these debates, I know that there will be a wide range of views explored and exposed. That is one reason why I am so grateful that my noble friend Lord McNally will be dealing with those views at the end of the debate tomorrow evening.
For over a century, successive Governments and Parliaments have debated reforming this House, but this Government set out their proposals—incidentally, the first Government ever—on 17 May in a draft Bill for a reformed House of Lords. As we made clear in that Statement, a debate would follow, and I very much welcome this opportunity to listen to the views of noble Lords on the draft Bill and the White Paper. I particularly welcome the contribution of my noble friend Lord Strasburger, who will speak for the first time in his maiden speech later today.
The background to the debate is consensus. Consistent with that approach, the Government have made clear their intention to listen and to be prepared to adapt as we navigate our way through this latest twist and turn in what has been one of the longest of long stories. We want to get these proposals right, but we are also committed to reforming the House to create a wholly or mainly elected second Chamber. Both the Liberal Democrat and Conservative Party manifestos, as well as the coalition programme for government and, indeed, the Labour Party manifesto, made that clear. Therefore our intention is to introduce a Bill next year and to hold the first elections to the reformed House in May 2015.
The long-standing role of this House as a revising and scrutinising Chamber is immensely valuable. This House frequently revises legislation for the better and holds the Government to account by effectively questioning and debating proposals. This is the traditional role of a second Chamber and is why many countries choose to have one—to provide that second view, from a different perspective. No one can doubt the commitment and sense of public service with which many noble Lords exercise these functions and no one can doubt the expertise in this place, which is used to great effect.
The Government therefore do not propose to change the role of this House. However, we believe that the composition of this House should be decided, either mainly or wholly, by the people of this country by direct election. This House, although it has many party-political Members, does not have democratic authority from the people it serves. Elections will establish a democratic legitimacy for our work to be carried out. Noble Lords will no doubt ask what democratic legitimacy will add. They will suggest that there are forms of democratic legitimacy other than election. To them, I say that elections will strengthen Parliament by making Members of the reformed House more representative of the people and able to act with their authority. Every five years, people—not party leaders—will decide who to send to do the work of this House; and they will be able to decide not only who but in what political proportions. Surely that is an incontestable right. We elect Members of the other place, we elect Members of the devolved legislatures and we elect local government—why should we not elect Members of this great House of Parliament?
Yet the Government recognise that the increased legitimacy that elections will bring gives rise to concerns that the primacy of the other place will be threatened. The primacy of the House of Commons is secured in statute by the Parliament Acts and on a day-to-day basis by the conventions between the two Houses. The draft Bill specifically provides that the reforms will not change the Parliament Acts, the conventions between the two Houses or the relationship between the two Houses. I am aware, from our previous exchanges on this issue, that many noble Lords do not entirely agree with that. Of course, over time, as indeed has been the lesson of the 20th century, these arrangements and conventions may—indeed will—develop and evolve. However, for now, we proceed recognising the present settlement between the two Houses to be adequate for the reforms being discussed. On top of that specific proposition, our proposals also contain important practical measures to reinforce the primacy of the House of Commons.
First, Members will serve long single terms, with no prospect of re-election. Noble Lords rightly esteem the independence of spirit that differentiates this House from the other place. Long single terms will uphold that independence, since elected Members will not be motivated to speak with a view to contesting the next election. They will prevent the reformed House of Lords challenging the primacy of the House of Commons because elected Members will not be accountable to voters in the same way that MPs are to their constituents and they will be less likely to compete with MPs at a local level.
Secondly, elections will be staggered. At each general election one-third of Members will be elected, which will ensure that Members of the reformed House, collectively, never have a more recent mandate than MPs. The House of Commons will determine who forms the Government. Our proposals will reinforce the distinctive character of each House by reducing the chances of one party gaining an overall majority in this House.
Thirdly, there is provision for a 20 per cent appointed element. If that is where we end up, it would mitigate the reformed House’s ability to claim greater legitimacy and thereby challenge the primacy of the House of Commons. Appointed Members would be expected to bring a non-party-political perspective to the work of this Chamber as well as unique expertise.
Finally, a proportional electoral system will differentiate this House from the other place. Proportional representation systems are based on multi-member constituencies, which are larger than those used for the House of Commons. This will provide Members with a mandate that is distinct from, but complementary to, that of Members of the other place.
The coalition agreement set out our commitment to a system of proportional representation for elections to the second Chamber. The draft Bill sets out proposals for the single transferable vote proportional system. STV offers a clear link between voters and individual candidates, as candidates are selected solely on the basis of the votes that they themselves achieve. However, the Government also recognise and are open to the arguments for an open list electoral system, which would also allow voters to vote for a single individual candidate rather than for a party.
There are also further details outlined in the Bill—for example, on new powers to deal with misconduct. The draft Bill provides for disqualification for serious criminal convictions and certain insolvency-related matters, and the power to expel Members. It also provides an enhanced power of suspension. I am sure that noble Lords will welcome these proposals.
Some have concluded that we are, in effect, abolishing the House of Lords.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, with the greatest respect to the growl of approval that I hear around the House, I think that is nonsense. We are not seeking to change the powers, role or functions of the House. Yes, we are going to introduce elected Members, but the House already has a majority of party-political Members. Many of our proposals have been recommended in the past, not least in the Royal Commission chaired by my noble friend Lord Wakeham in 2001 and, more recently, in Jack Straw’s White Paper of 2008.
Another key element of the Government’s proposals is an orderly process of transition. We value the experience, knowledge and expertise that this House has accumulated. We have set out three options for transition, all of which allow for a period when existing Peers would work alongside new Members to transmit knowledge and ensure that the House continues to operate effectively. The draft Bill provides for one of those options, whereby numbers of Members of the present House would be reduced in thirds corresponding to the arrival of new Members in thirds. The views of the House will be invaluable in determining the final proposals on this issue.
There are other elements that will continue unchanged. The White Paper sets out how the right reverend Prelates on the Bishops’ Bench will continue to be an important part of this House, at least in the 80 per cent model. The House will continue to determine its own working practices, its Members will not have constituency responsibilities, and the focus of their activities will continue to be this Chamber and its committees. Members will continue to receive a Writ of Summons and appointed Members will still be appointed by Her Majesty. The second Chamber will continue to fulfil its ceremonial duties in our constitutional system.
The next stage is for pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill and the White Paper on a cross-party basis by a Joint Committee of both Houses. On 7 June, this House agreed to the establishment of that committee. The Lords Members of that committee have been proposed by the Committee of Selection, whose report is available in the Printed Paper Office. I am very pleased that the usual channels have agreed that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, should take the chair. In chairing that committee, he will bring years of experience and knowledge at the highest level, not least as a former Leader of this House. Pre-legislative scrutiny will allow those inside and outside Parliament to examine and contribute to the debate on the proposals. We welcome a wide variety of views and perspectives on those proposals.
I turn to the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, to which she will address herself later this afternoon, which calls on the Government to bring forward proposals for incremental reforms to the existing Bill. It will not have escaped your Lordships’ notice that a Private Member’s Bill in the name of my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood is before the House, and it includes incremental changes—the establishment of a statutory appointments commission, ending by-elections for hereditary Peers, introducing permanent leave of absence and dealing with those convicted of a serious criminal offence. I am delighted to say that all these issues are included in the Government’s draft Bill. However, the proposals in my noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill are in the context of a wholly appointed House, whereas the Government are committed to a wholly or mainly elected second Chamber, as set out in the draft Bill.
It is time for this great story of House of Lords reform to take its next step forward. This second Chamber has long held successive Governments to account. It has scrutinised and improved legislation. It has produced better laws and has made Governments think again. This need not change. However, the Government believe that in the 21st century it is right that this place should be underpinned in its work by a democratic mandate. Both Houses of Parliament should enjoy the confidence of the people.
We will listen and engage with all those with a variety of views. We will adapt and be flexible where possible. We will proceed with consensus if, as we very much hope, that is possible. However, the central principle of legitimacy through election should not be forsaken. This long story has taken many twists and turns, but now is the opportunity—perhaps the only opportunity we will have this generation—for a Government finally to act. I beg to move.
Undertakings for Collective Investment in Transferable Securities Regulations 2011
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
House of Lords: Reform
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Steel of Aikwood
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to bring forward proposals for incremental urgent reforms that would improve the functioning of the existing House of Lords, notwithstanding their proposals for more fundamental changes.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, we have no plans to bring forward additional legislative proposals to reform this House, but we look forward to considering the recommendations of the Procedure Committee to provide for permanent voluntary retirement and to make amendments to the arrangements for leave of absence.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I assume that the Leader of the House is aware that the wording of my Question is lifted completely and exactly from the seventh report of the House of Commons Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which urges those proposing radical reform to address immediate issues and concludes:
“This is a pressing issue that cannot wait four years to be resolved”.
Does the Leader accept that?
Lord Strathclyde
Not entirely, my Lords, which is why I said in my initial reply that we were looking forward to some of the incremental changes, many of which were born out of the Bill that my noble friend originally proposed several years ago, such as permanent voluntary retirement and improving leave of absence. The draft Bill that the Government published on 17 May includes a whole range of proposals that, given a fair wind, could get Royal Assent by the end of the next Session.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, since the proposals set out in the Bill tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, are indeed contained within the draft Bill that the Government have produced, how can the noble Lord the Leader of the House not embrace them enthusiastically here and now? Would it not be sensible to make progress in reform as rapidly as possible in those areas where there is broad agreement?
Lord Strathclyde
It is all a question of time. I dare say that if we rushed through the welfare Bill, the Localism Bill and the health Bill, and found ourselves with a few extra days at the end of the Session, we might be able to look at this more constructively. However, given the pace at which we have approached government legislation this Session, I do not think that we will have that extra time.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, would my noble friend the Leader accept an amendment to the Steel Bill that put a cap on the number of Members of your Lordships’ House at, say, 800?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill is before the House. It has had its Second Reading and awaits a Committee stage. If my noble friend Lord Hamilton were to table an amendment, I am sure that it would be debated if the Committee stage came forward. I have no idea what the Government’s view on that would be, nor indeed what the House’s view would be.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Given that there has been no recent statement, as far as I am aware, that no further Members will be appointed for the next six years, is not the question of a statutory appointments commission urgent for the here and now if we are not to keep escalating numbers, which has such a disastrous effect on all aspects of the workings of the House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not recognise the words in the noble Lord’s preface to his question—that there would be no more Peers for the next six years. I am sure that there will be. I have said in the recent past that no government list is being worked on at the moment. The independent Appointments Commission has its own ways of producing names and I do not think that there is a moratorium on it. I and many other Members of this House were Members of a House of Lords that had far more Members than this one and it managed perfectly well.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, given the Government’s commitment to reducing the number of Members of this House, and faced with the rapidly increasing numbers, is there any intention to learn from the splendid example of these Benches and to bring in a facility to enable Members of the House to retire or to petition for the withdrawal of the Writ of Summons?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is certainly a proposal, which we shall be debating in the next couple of weeks, for permanent voluntary retirement for all Peers. I am not entirely sure that that will include Members on the spiritual Benches of the right reverend Prelates, who of course retire from this House not entirely voluntarily but when they reach their 70th birthday.
Lord Grocott
On Tuesday, the Leader of the House was emollient and relaxed about when the Joint Committee should report, the date being 28 February, as in the Motion that was passed, yet he has just told us that it is quite possible that a Bill could become an Act in the second Session of this Parliament and that this House could be on its way to being fully elected in the next Session. It seems to me that there is a bit of a conflict between his not worrying too much about the Joint Committee reporting by 28 February and his talking almost in the same breath about a Bill being introduced in the Session that begins next May. Can we again have it from his own mouth that he is quite relaxed about a committee of this significance taking a reasonable amount of time to reach its conclusions?
Lord Strathclyde
Although it is rather flattering to be called emollient and relaxed by the noble Lord, what I actually said earlier this week was that it was entirely in the hands of the Joint Committee when it decides to report back to both Houses. I hope that it will do that as quickly as possible. The words that I used in response to my noble friend Lord Steel were, “given a fair wind”. If the committee were to report and the Government were to decide to go ahead with a Bill, it could be in place by the end of the next Session.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, can my noble friend explain why the Government are sending out a message that they are against reform of this Chamber, for which there is substantial support and which is set out in the Steel Bill, and are instead going headlong down a path towards what can only be described as abolition of this House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, this is where we get into a discussion about semantics. The Government are mad keen on reform. That is why they published their Bill. My noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill would create a wholly appointed House. I remind the House that no major political party stood at the last election in favour of those plans. All political parties stood for a wholly, or largely, elected House.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, the next part of the “mad keen” process will be consideration of the draft Bill by the Joint Committee. Can the noble Lord the Leader say whether all proceedings of that committee will be in public and whether all the papers pertaining to that committee will be made available to the public?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I understand that it is normal for these sorts of Joint Committees to hear evidence and deliberate in public. I suppose that it is up to the committee exactly what rules it decides on. No doubt those who sit on it and whoever chairs it will take into account this debate and, if representations are made, I am sure that they will wish to be as open as possible.
His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty The Queen as follows:
“Most Gracious Sovereign,
We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave
To assure Your Majesty that this House looks forward to the ninetieth birthday of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh;
To convey to Your Majesty the admiration that is felt by this House for His Royal Highness; and
To express the hope that His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh may long continue to enjoy good health and happiness.”
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, it is with the greatest pleasure that I invite the House to agree this Motion today and thereby to place on record, on behalf of this House and the nation, our sincere admiration for His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh and our gratitude for his unswerving contribution to our national life ahead of his 90th birthday this Friday. The longest serving consort in British history, for over half a century the Duke has both steadfastly supported Her Majesty the Queen in her important work and at the same time created a distinctive and much valued role for himself in our national story. Like his predecessor a century before, Prince Philip has served our institutions with great dignity and honour. His role at the heart of a partnership that has helped to bequeath a glorious reign has been something both fundamental and very special.
Few of us can fail to admire Prince Philip when he comes to the State Opening of Parliament and sits quietly but resolutely next to Her Majesty on the Throne, with a twinkle in the eye and a profound understanding of the values of duty and service; and with an intrinsic grasp of our national character and spirit. Prince Philip has remained constant to this country and its people, and today we are going to recognise and thank him for that.
Born on 10 June 1921, a prince of Greece and Denmark, Prince Philip and his family were evacuated from Greece in 1922 by a Royal Navy ship, subsequently settling in France. Educated in Germany and the United Kingdom, he joined the Royal Navy as a cadet in 1939 at the onset of the Second World War. His appointments included that of first lieutenant of HMS “Wallace”, which took part in the Allied landings in Sicily in July 1943, and first lieutenant of HMS “Whelp”, which partook in the surrender of Japan. He then went on to attain the rank of lieutenant commander in 1950 and of commander in 1952, by which time his active naval career had come to an end following the untimely and premature death of his father-in-law King George VI.
Following his marriage to the then Princess Elizabeth in November 1947 and her accession to the throne in February 1952, Prince Philip, who had by then become the Duke of Edinburgh, began his new role in public life in support of the many duties, engagements and responsibilities carried out by Her Majesty the Queen. He is patron or president of some 800 organisations, foremost among them the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award, a charity which has touched the lives of more than 4 million young people in more than 60 countries since its inception. He maintains an active interest in industry, conservation and the environment, most prominently as the first president of the UK arm of the World Wildlife Fund. He is also a proud father, a grandfather and most recently a great-grandfather, achievements and accolades sometimes too obvious to mention, but nevertheless sources of immense pride. He is a keen sportsman, a tireless collector, a passionate supporter of the arts, of education, of our Armed Forces and of the Commonwealth—to do full justice to Prince Philip’s achievements and interests would require a litany.
He is a man of extraordinary range, commitment, involvement and passion. The Duke has been at the heart of what this country is about for almost his entire adult life. We owe to him a significant debt of gratitude for all that he has done and continues to do and I know that the whole House will wish to join me in conveying our warmest congratulations to His Royal Highness on the occasion of his forthcoming 90th birthday. I beg to move.
His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That a Message be conveyed to His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh as follows:
“Your Royal Highness,
We, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, warmly congratulate Your Royal Highness on Your Royal Highness’s forthcoming ninetieth birthday;
We express our gratitude for Your Royal Highness’s outstanding service to the nation, not only in supporting Her Majesty The Queen throughout Her Majesty’s reign but also in making Your Royal Highness’s own deep contribution to national life, in particular in Your Royal Highness’s distinguished naval service in the second world war and in Your Royal Highness’s creation of the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award which has done so much to encourage the development of young people;
We wish Your Royal Highness many happy returns.”
Leader’s Group on Working Practices
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Tyler
To ask the Leader of the House when he expects to respond to the recommendations of the Leader’s Group on Working Practices.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I will be leading a debate on the report prepared by the Leader’s Group and chaired by my noble friend Lord Goodlad later this month, following which I plan to invite the relevant committees of the House to take forward specific recommendations.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, I am sure that many Members of the House will welcome that positive response from my noble friend, but can he assure us that there will be an opportunity for the House as a whole to debate and decide some of these matters, some of which are not only timely but very urgent? The work that has been done by this group is, I think, broadly welcomed across the House—it has done a very good job—but some of it is, as I say, very urgent. Notably, there is the question of the role of the Lord Speaker, which is a matter that I hope will be determined by the House as a whole before the new Lord Speaker is elected. Can my noble friend give us an assurance that there will be a speedy timetable for discussion and decision on these matters?
Lord Strathclyde
Yes, my Lords. Of course, the final decisions on these matters will be entirely in the hands of the House, which is entirely appropriate. In particular, I confirm to my noble friend that there is no reason why decisions cannot be taken immensely speedily after the debate and when we have taken the views of the House into account and sent them to the respective committees.
As for the role of the Lord Speaker, the Leader’s Group concluded that successive Leaders of the House had acted with complete impartiality in their role of advising the House on matters of procedure and order, including at Question Time. None the less, I am conscious that some in the House wish to see a far greater role for the Chair—notably at Question Time—and that the Leader’s Group has made proposals in this area, to which I intend to give prompt and serious consideration once Members have had the opportunity to have their say.
Lord Elton
My Lords, the report will be differently received as regards different paragraphs by different Members of this House. What is the procedure by which we shall be able to pick and choose that which we wish and that which we shall not wish?
Lord Strathclyde
That is a good question. The purpose of the debate is a bit like a Second Reading speech; it is for different noble Lords to use their speeches to look at different parts of the report. After that, it will be dissected by the usual channels and the clerks and sent to the respective committees. Their reports can then be debated and approved by the House as a whole.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I think that noble Lords will welcome what my noble friend has just said. Will he bear in mind that there is considerable disquiet in many parts of the House about the proposal that we should sit at 2 o’clock? Would he also bear in mind that there is considerable support for the proposal that we should have more Joint Committees? It is therefore essential that we have the opportunity to vote individually on these various recommendations.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am aware of that and that is the point of the proposal that I laid out: namely, that the House will be able to take a view on individual recommendations, subject to the reports that emanate from the committees of this House.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I know that following the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, many Members of this House are anxious that some of the proposals at least should be implemented in the near future. May I therefore suggest to the noble Lord the Leader that perhaps the meetings of the relevant committees could be arranged for July in order that the House may take a view at the earliest opportunity? Perhaps some elements of the report could be implemented in September.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that, of course, will be a decision for the Chairman of Committees, but no doubt he will be listening to this exchange and will wish to take that into regard while he decides on the dates of the meetings of the relevant committees.
Draft House of Lords Reform Bill
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill presented to both Houses on 17 May (Cm 8077), and that the committee should report on the draft Bill by 29 February 2012.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, given that my Motion has attracted an amendment, I should say a few words about it. The Motion proposes a Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill published last month, and does so in the usual way by referring the draft Bill and accompanying White Paper in their entirety to the Joint Committee for its consideration.
The noble Lord, Lord Cunningham of Felling, may shortly move his amendment and I have no desire to pre-empt him, but I hope that it is helpful to the House if I point out that Clause 2 of the draft Bill provides that:
“Nothing in the provisions of this Act … affects the primacy of the House of Commons, or … otherwise affects the powers, rights, privileges or jurisdiction of either House of Parliament, or the conventions governing the relationship between the two Houses”.
The White Paper includes several paragraphs on the powers of the two Houses, essentially providing,
“no change to the constitutional powers and privileges of the House once it is reformed, nor to the fundamental relationship with the House of Commons, which would remain the primary House of Parliament”.
It goes on to say:
“The Government believes that clause 2 of the draft Bill is the best way of achieving this because it does not attempt to codify the existing powers of the Houses in legislation but rather, as now, accepts that the position is a matter of convention”.
That, of course, is the Government’s view, but as I have already made clear, the Joint Committee will be able to consider each and every matter raised in the Government’s White Paper and may reach its own conclusions.
There is, therefore, nothing in the Joint Committee's remit to prevent it from doing exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, proposes. I cannot possibly second-guess how the committee will choose to approach its work, but I imagine that it would wish to have regard not only to the conclusions of the report chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, but to the exchange we are having today and to related points that will no doubt be raised in the debate later this month.
Therefore, although I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, for tabling his amendment, which concerns something which has the potential of being quite a controversial matter during the discussions in the Joint Committee, I hope that the House and he himself will accept that the amendment is unnecessary. I beg to move.
Amendment to the Motion
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, I just want briefly to say that, as the sole surviving Cross-Bench Member of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, I strongly support his amendment. If he decides to seek the opinion of the House, I shall vote for it.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, this might be a good time for me to reply. My purpose in laying out the Government’s view at the outset was to try to pour some oil on troubled waters, a task in which I spectacularly failed. A number of key issues have been raised and perhaps I could deal with them. This is all part of an important debate and, as one or two noble Lords have rightly recognised, we are due to have a two-day debate starting on 21 June. I urge noble Lords to prepare their speeches for then. Therefore, we do not need to extend this debate much longer.
First, on timing, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, rightly asked why, if we are not going to second-guess the Joint Committee, we are directing it as to by when it should report. I can tell the House that in a government Motion to set up a Joint Committee it is entirely normal practice that the Committee should be given a target date. It is equally entirely normal practice—in the past few weeks I have moved Motions to this effect—that, if the view of the Committee is that it needs more time, it is given that time, which would of course apply in respect of this Joint Committee.
Secondly, on membership, this Joint Committee cannot be set up without the agreement of this House to the names put forward. I know that different parties, including the Cross-Benches, have different processes as to how names are chosen, but those names will be agreed by the House. I fully expect them to reflect the wide variety of views that exist across the House, as I expect will be reflected in the names that come from another place. This will be a Joint Committee of 26 people, 13 from each House, including a Bishop and Cross-Benchers. In setting up this body, it would be inconceivable for it to have a unanimous view right at the very start.
Thirdly, and perhaps more importantly, is the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, and by the noble Lords, Lord Reid and Lord Richard, about the amendment in particular. I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Richard. It would be a most odd Joint Committee on this subject if it were not to look carefully at all the clauses, including Clause 2, or to look at the paragraphs in the White Paper that have a view on the subject of the primacy of another place and of the conventions that bind us.
The noble Lord, Lord Reid, said that this amendment would issue an instruction. In itself, that would not be useful if the Joint Committee chose to ignore it or not to take it sufficiently seriously. It would be far better for us to trust the Joint Committee to use its innate wisdom. The noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, characteristically offered a very good critique not only of the Bill but of the White Paper. Of course, we will hear much more of that in the debate to come. But overwhelmingly, I hope that the noble Lord and the House are satisfied that there is no intention on the part of the Government to railroad this Joint Committee to come to a preconceived conclusion. That would not be an easy thing to do, not least when we look at the history of the past 12 months and the committee that was brought together under the excellent chairmanship of the Deputy Prime Minister. He brought together all the parties, and they came to a consensus on reform of the House of Lords.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is the Leader of the House saying, in other words, that the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Cunningham is acceptable?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, what I am saying is that, first, it is unnecessary, and secondly, everything in the noble Lord’s amendment will, I am sure, be taken into account by the Joint Committee.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
Will the noble Lord tell the House how many times the committee led by the Deputy Prime Minister met in order to arrive at the conclusions that are now represented in the White Paper and the draft Bill?
Lord Strathclyde
The Clegg committee met nine times between May and December last year before the draft Bill and the White Paper were brought forward last month.
I hope that, having heard this, the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, will feel that he has had a good outing on the subject and that he is confident, as I am, that the Joint Committee will look at these matters. We can leave it up to the Joint Committee to decide whether it can meet the deadline of the end of February next year.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
If this matter is to be put to a vote—I do not know whether it will be—it is important that we should know what it is we are voting on. As I understand the amendment, it is to be an instruction that the joint body should “take account” of something. To my mind it is inconceivable that the Joint Committee will not take account of noble Lords. Again, it is inconceivable. So what are we worried about?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I think that we have had a useful debate because for the past few weeks there has been an air of controversy over what the conclusions of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, meant when they were initially published. But I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, that the amendment to the Motion is not necessary. I therefore invite the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, to respond and, I hope, to withdraw his amendment.
House of Lords: Facilities
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Lea of Crondall
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have taken into consideration issues such as members’ effectiveness and provision of facilities in increasing the size of the House to over 800.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
The Government consider a range of issues before making appointments to the House of Lords.
Lord Lea of Crondall
I thank the noble Lord for that extremely helpful reply but, at a time of financial stringency, will the Government take responsibility for the escalation since the election of both the direct costs of Members and the costs of buildings, desks, telecoms, the Library, catering facilities and committee-servicing support staff, albeit that there are no more seats in the Chamber and no more speaking time in the Chamber? Secondly, we hear the Machiavellian argument that, whereas a constantly rising trend to 800 Members and above is unsustainable—that is correct—that is thereby one of the reasons for abolishing this House as we know it and replacing it with a second-class Commons. Is this not a crisis of the coalition’s own deliberate making and a tactic worthy of any self-respecting Bolshevik?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that is a first for me. I do not know whether the noble Lord was rehearsing his speech for what will no doubt be an action-packed two-day debate on the future of your Lordships’ House in a few weeks’ time, but I do not recognise any of his characterisations. It is true that the House is bigger than it has been for some years. What is more significant is that the daily attendance has risen—though it is still below our full strength, at about 450 per day—and that has put some pressure on our facilities. However, various committees of the House look into this. The House should of course be comfortable and be able to provide for the needs of noble Lords, but these issues are simply not related to future reform.
Lord Addington
My Lords, will my noble friend—or should I say “comrade”?—give us an assurance that, whatever is decided about the future of this House, office space will be a very low priority in any further constitutional discussion?
Lord Strathclyde
I am a great fan of the coalition and if “comrade” it must be, then “comrade” it is. I agree with my noble friend. This is not about office space; it is about democracy and authority, as the House knows well. I also recognise that there are many disagreements about this view.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, is it not the case that any current list of sitting Peers in this House—with pictures, large and small—depicts a much greater number than ever attend? Would it not be possible, bearing in mind how this inflates the look of the numbers of this place, to ask people who have not been here for years whether they wish to continue on the list of working Peers?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there will be an opportunity for noble Lords to retire permanently from the House, but I disagree with one aspect of what my noble friend said. There should always be room to speak for Peers who may not come very often but who, when they come, are worth listening to, which is not always the case with some noble Lords who speak very regularly.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, the recommendations of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, and his group will clearly have real implications for the effectiveness and efficacy of this House. Will the noble Lord tell us when he expects the recommendations to be implemented—not just debated, but implemented?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, we will have a debate very soon. When we have organised a date we shall let the House know. It is of course entirely up to the House and its committees to make recommendations on implementation, but I am hopeful that some recommendations can be put into effect very speedily.
Earl Ferrers
My Lords, would my noble friend the Leader of the House agree with me that the Government are perfectly mad to increase the size of the House to 800?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend was a Member of the House when it had a membership of well over 1,000.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend has yet had time to read the report from the House of Commons constitutional committee, which said that, despite the wonderful plans for 2015 and 2025, the Government should get on with improving the functioning of this House now. Would not the easiest way of doing that be to take over my Private Member’s Bill, which had such a warm welcome at Second Reading and is already under way? It is a free gift that is being offered.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend’s offer is kind and generous, but he will know that at the last election no political party supported his Bill—no party had it in its manifesto—whereas there is a consensus to have an elected House in 2015.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, in the fraternal spirit of the earlier questions, would my noble friend agree that a permanent second Chamber composed of some 300 elected full-time senators would be far more expensive and far less expert than the House that we have today?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it would be more expensive—there is no doubt about that—but whether it would be more expert is a matter of conjecture and personal opinion.
House of Lords: Membership
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Grocott
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many additional Peers from each of the parties that contested the 2010 general election are required to meet the commitment in the coalition’s programme for government to establish “a second Chamber that is reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last general election”.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the coalition programme made clear that, pending reform of this House, appointments would be made with the objective of creating a second Chamber reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last general election. We have now published our proposals for a wholly or mainly elected House, and we intend that the first elected Members will join this House in 2015. The Prime Minister will continue to move towards the objectives set out in the coalition programme.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, that was an Answer to two questions, neither of which was the Question I asked. Can I assume that neither the Leader of the House nor anyone in the unit in the Civil Service that is dealing with these things has read the document published by the Constitution Unit of University College London, which calculates that if the coalition agreement’s plans for appointment to this House were to be met, an additional 269 Peers would be required? We have two simultaneous government policies, one set out in the coalition agreement, which provides for a House in excess of 1,000 Members, and the other in the document published last week, the draft Bill, which provides for a House of 300 Members. Will the Leader of the House explain the Government’s thinking?
Lord Strathclyde
I think the noble Lord is making a frightful meal of this. There is no complexity in it at all. The Prime Minister has said, as outlined in the coalition document, that we will move towards this objective over time, but we may not reach it. If we get to 2015 and have elected Members of this House, it will, of course, be unnecessary. What all the figures demonstrate is that the Labour Party is extremely well represented in this House. If anyone needs more Members it is the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats.
Lord Rennard
Does the Minister agree that one of the important principles that should be preserved in this House is that no one party should ever have an overall majority within it? Does he also accept that in the House as presently constituted, 80 per cent of Members are male and 20 per cent female, with an average age of 69, and that any future appointments or any future electoral system should be geared towards improving the representative nature of this House to make it more reflective of the diversity of the country as a whole?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend’s first point. It is a matter of record that the coalition—the combined forces of the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats—is no more than 40 per cent of this House, which means that it is a minority. The Labour Party does not like to be reminded of the fact that it is the largest group in the House of Lords, but that, too, is a fact. I am sure that my noble friend’s statistics on the male-female ratio are correct. We are also a substantially older House than many other assemblies and parliaments in the world, which of course is not such a bad thing. It is a good opportunity to let the House know that it is my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway’s 94th birthday today.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
I thank my noble friend very much. I was wondering whether noble Lords in this House were more interested in retaining its ethos than in diversity. Does my noble friend agree?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am a great believer in the ethos of this House, which has served the interests of the nation over a long period of time. I very much hope that if we do get to an elected House its essential ethos will not change.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
Is the noble Lord aware that the Prime Minister wrote to me last August saying:
“I do take on board what you say about the number of UKIP Peers currently in the House of Lords and I will, of course, keep this matter under review”?
Since UKIP got more than 3 per cent of the vote at the last general election, that would give us some 24 Peers by the present numbering instead of the two we now have. How is the Prime Minister’s review proceeding?
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, does Her Majesty’s Government believe that the appointment of a large number of additional Peers will help your Lordships’ House to serve the people of our country more effectively, or might some of the proposals of the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, help to achieve that objective better?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is no intention at present to increase the number of Peers in this House. However, from the point of view of my noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill, I can inform the House that my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral’s proposition has been published in a Procedure Committee report, will be taken in the course of the next few weeks and, I hope, will be agreed by the House.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, amusing as all this is, can we not abandon the constitutional gobbledegook to which we have been subjected? Can my noble friend not recognise the worth of this House and the good sense of the Steel Bill proposals, reform this House, and abandon plans to abolish it and replace it by an elected assembly, which could only be second best?
Lord Strathclyde
I was unaware of any constitutional gobbledegook during the course of this Question. It is because my noble friend Lord Steel’s propositions on permanent retirement from this House are so sensible that the Procedure Committee has agreed a report which I hope will be agreed by the House.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am sure that many of my noble friends would welcome the noble Lord’s announcement that the Government have no intention to increase the number of Peers, thus breaking another promise in the coalition agreement, but one which we welcome wholeheartedly. Does the Leader of the House agree that, while neither the Conservative Party nor the Liberal Democrats have a majority in this House, as the coalition Benches they have a political majority, which has fundamentally changed the workings of this House since the advent of the coalition?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is no intention at present to increase the size of the House of Lords, but that—for the avoidance of doubt—is not a moratorium. As for the political majority, it is true that the coalition has more members than the Labour Party, but that is not the whole of the House of Lords. The Cross-Benchers play a substantial and serious-minded role in this House—one the Labour Party wishes to abolish from the future House. I am, on the other hand, entirely in favour of the Cross Benches remaining an important and integral part of a reformed second Chamber.