Draft Defamation Bill

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That it is expedient that a joint committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft Defamation Bill presented to both Houses on 15 March (Cm 8020) and that the committee should report on the draft Bill by 19 July 2011.

Motion agreed.

Code of Recommended Practice on Local Authority Publicity

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the order of 10 March referring the Code of Recommended Practice to a Grand Committee be discharged.

Motion agreed.

Libya

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now make a Statement about Libya in order to bring the House up to date, in light of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, the Prime Minister’s Statement to the other place of Friday 18 March and events that have taken place over the weekend.

It is now almost a month since the people of Libya first took to the streets to make clear their wish for a regime that is free of oppression and corruption. Since those initial protests, we have seen the situation deteriorate and the violence increase. In response to the need to protect vulnerable citizens, the UK has played a leading role in delivering EU action and UNSC resolutions.

On 23 February, the UN Secretary-General described the reported nature and scale of attacks on civilians as,

“egregious violations of international and human rights law”,

and called on the Government of Libya to,

“meet its responsibility to protect its people”.

He said later that more than 1,000 people had been killed and many more had been injured in Libya amid credible and consistent reports of arrests, detention and torture.

At the end of February, and at Britain’s instigation, the UN Security Council agreed Resolution 1970 to bring in asset freezes and a travel ban for Gaddafi’s top officials. Accordingly, the Foreign Secretary removed the exemption from UK immigration control that applied previously to Gaddafi, as head of state, and members of his household, thus preventing them from entering the UK. The Government also took action to freeze the assets of Gaddafi, members of his family, people acting on their behalf, and entities owned or controlled by them. We have prohibited the export of uncirculated Libyan banknotes without a licence from the UK.

The EU Council decision and regulation, adopted on 3 March, extended the scope of the travel ban and asset freeze to include additional individuals subject to EU measures. On 11 March, the European Council issued a declaration on developments in Libya, in which EU leaders called on Gaddafi to “relinquish power immediately”, as his regime had “lost all legitimacy”, and agreed to work with the UN, the Arab League, the African Union and international partners in responding to the crisis.

There has also been a clear desire by the international community to see Gaddafi’s regime held to account for its actions. On 1 March, Libya was suspended from the UN Human Rights Council. The UK was also instrumental in referring Gaddafi and his regime to the International Criminal Court, which opened its investigation on 3 March. Despite repeated calls to end their violence and, as the UN Secretary-General put it, for the Government of Libya to,

“meet its responsibility to protect its people”,

we saw only an escalation of state violence and an ever growing number of civilian casualties. We therefore supported the UN in a call for an immediate ceasefire and, if one were not forthcoming, for action to protect the civilian population.

A no-fly zone was authorised by UN Resolution 1973 on 17 March 2011. The resolution also called for an immediate ceasefire, an end to the violence, measures to make it more difficult to bring mercenaries into Libya and the tightening of sanctions. It also authorised the use of all necessary measures to protect the civilian population, including in Benghazi. Unfortunately, the Gaddafi regime did not heed this resolution and continued, and indeed stepped up, brutal military action against its own citizens over the following days, while pretending in public to be implementing a ceasefire. Therefore, on 19 March, a summit for support for the Libyan people was convened in Paris by President Sarkozy. It was attended by France, the UK, the USA, Spain, Germany, Canada, Qatar, Poland, Denmark, Italy, Greece, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, the League of Arab States, Iraq, the UAE, Jordan and Morocco, as well as the UN and EU. Leaders agreed to,

“act collectively and resolutely to give effect”,

to UNSCR 1973 and called on Gaddafi and his forces to,

“immediately end all acts of violence carried out against civilians, to withdraw from all areas they have entered by force, return to their compounds and allow full humanitarian access”.

Following that, on the evening of 19 March, UK Armed Forces under the authority of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 participated in a co-ordinated strike against Libyan air defence systems. The UK launched guided Tomahawk land-attack missiles from a Trafalgar class submarine. The RAF also launched Storm Shadow missiles from a number of Tornado GR4 fast jets, which flew direct from RAF Marham as part of a co-ordinated coalition plan to begin the international community’s enforcement of the Security Council resolution. HMS “Westminster” is currently off the coast of Libya and HMS “Cumberland” is in the region, ready to support operations.

Gaddafi made a television statement late on 19 March, in which he criticised military action and asked the Security Council and the international community for an “immediate” stop to the hostilities. Gaddafi claimed:

“Libya will be practising its right of self-defence according to clause 51 of the UN Charter”,

and threatened that,

“civilian and military targets in the air and sea will be liable to serious danger in the Mediterranean”.

UK and partner forces remain engaged in ongoing operations as we seek to ensure that Colonel Gaddafi and his forces understand that the international community will not stand by and watch them continue to kill civilians.

I am sure that all Members of the House will join me in expressing pride in our Armed Forces and admiration for the bravery and expertise of our service men and women as they complete their difficult work. We also pay tribute to the continuing work of British officials both at home and abroad as they, too, complete their tasks.

I want to make it clear that these are efforts to protect the Libyan population as called for by many Libyans throughout the country including the Libyan opposition, with whom we are in regular contact. The Libyan population wants freedom from oppression and to be able to choose its leaders. As the Prime Minister has said,

“what we are doing is necessary, it is legal, and it is right. It is necessary because, with others, we should be trying to prevent him”—

Gaddafi—

“using his military against his own people. It is legal, because we have the backing of the United Nations Security Council and also of the Arab League and many others. And it is right because we believe we should not stand aside while this dictator murders his own people”.

I will ensure that the Government keep the House updated as the situation develops.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I begin with what the noble Baroness said in her closing remarks. We are witnessing, right across the Middle East, a great period of change. We are witnessing events sometimes changing very quickly on our television screens, dealing with frustrations that have built up over a long period. In each country these are manifested in different ways and may well end in different destinations. It is difficult for us to see exactly what those will be. Our role is to encourage the aspirations of individual countries’ peoples to be met and to enable change, where it happens, to be as peaceful as possible and provide for the long-term sustainability of individual nations.

I thank the noble Baroness for her reply and the way in which she expressed it. I thank her particularly for supporting the action that the Government have taken. She is completely right: this House should debate these great issues. The House was not sitting on Friday when the Statement was taken in another place and the usual channels deemed it too short notice to provide for a debate at the same time as the debate in another place. Through the usual channels we will continue to provide time for short debates and Statements, as they arise. If there is a need for a wider debate—I suspect that there will be—we will make time available for that and let the House know. Like the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition, I think that we should do that relatively soon—perhaps towards the end of next week.

The noble Baroness said that we needed to be clear about the purpose of this action and that there should be clear parliamentary scrutiny. I entirely agree with her. The purpose of this House is not only to inform another place but to inform the Government of the views of this House.

What has Colonel Gaddafi been doing and how has he breached Security Council Resolution 1973? Since Saturday evening, it is clear to us that Colonel Gaddafi’s forces launched an attack on Benghazi, shelling residential suburbs. There have been air strikes by the US, the UK and France to enforce the no-fly zone. I can announce to the House today that coalition forces have largely neutralised Libyan air defences and that, as a result, a no-fly zone has effectively been put in place over Libya. However, Colonel Gaddafi’s forces launched artillery and tank bombardments against Misurata over the weekend of 19 to 20 March, causing dozens of injuries and damage to electricity and water supplies. Under these circumstances, we are utterly clear about the legal basis for military action and the fact that the UN Security Council resolution has been comprehensively broken. Our strategy is, therefore, to enforce that resolution.

This action is being taken primarily to protect the civilian population in Libya. Regime change is no part of our objective, although we have made it clear, through the Prime Minister and as a Government, that we believe that Colonel Gaddafi no longer has the support and confidence of his people. I can also confirm that Colonel Gaddafi is not a target, as the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Richards, told the BBC. He said:

“It’s not allowed under the UN resolution”.

I believe that that is entirely in accordance with all that the Secretary of State for Defence has said.

I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness said about the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, who has performed a difficult task under difficult circumstances. I know that she has the wholehearted support of this House.

The question is raised: who is running this military operation and what is NATO’s role? In other words, who is in charge? The operation is currently under US command, with high-profile French and UK involvement as well as close co-ordination with a range of other countries, including Arab states. We continue to discuss with partners the arrangements for the next phase of this military operation. Over the short term, we want a transition to NATO command of military operations as quickly as is feasible. That is also Turkey’s aim. We are working hard to get decisions in NATO to enable this to happen as fast as possible.

The noble Baroness asked a series of questions, some of which are hypothetical. For instance, she asked what happens next. It is very difficult to picture exactly what the next course of action will be, but we know that it will be a difficult and dangerous road ahead. We cannot determine the exact course of events. However, we are clear that already we have saved civilian lives from the violence of their own regime. We have prevented the fall of Benghazi, which is a substantial city of more than 1 million residents, and we believe that Libyan people have a better chance of determining their own destiny than before.

We are clear about the meaning of the Security Council resolution: “all necessary” force in enforcing the no-fly zone and protecting civilians means exactly that, but it does not mean that we can put military forces on the ground. We do not believe that that is allowable under the Security Council resolution.

I have said that we will have an opportunity to debate this. I will continue to update the House, as will my colleagues. The noble Baroness also made an interesting suggestion that we as a Government might be able to offer briefings to interested Peers. I would very much like to offer that. My noble friends Lord Howell of Guildford and Lord Astor of Hever will make time for interested Peers to be kept abreast of events as they unfold. Through the usual channels, we will find a way of bringing that to the attention of the House.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister accept my thanks for the way that the Government have acted by putting down that resolution at the Security Council at the key moment? Will the Government give some consideration to getting the Security Council to authorise putting Libya’s oil resources into an escrow account and making a proportion of that account roughly proportionate to the size of the part of Libya that is under the control of the insurgents available to them for civil purposes? That, as the noble Lord will remember, was what happened in Iraq in 1991. It successfully supported the survival of the Kurdish part of Iraq, without in any way altering our respect for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of that country. That would be a way in which the insurgents could be helped. When dealing with some Governments around the world who have expressed doubts or even criticism of what we have done, will the Minister remind them that every single one of them subscribed in 2005 to the doctrine of the responsibility to protect? Will he ask them fairly robustly what they would do now to protect the civilians of Libya?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have noted previously that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, brings his considerable experience and knowledge to bear in this House. It is immensely useful that he does so at this time. I very much welcome his words about the United Kingdom and France putting down the key resolution, and doing so at the right time—some would say in the nick of time. Certainly, if it had happened 24 hours later, we might have faced a very different situation in Libya.

The noble Lord makes an interesting suggestion—one that is based on precedent—about the oil resources and an escrow account. All these matters are under consideration in the United Nations and, of course, in the Security Council and in individual member states. As the noble Lord points out, such a measure would respect the integrity of international borders.

On the criticism of some countries, the words of the noble Lord stand. They will be read and should be repeated to those countries that have sat by while so many others have done the work. In due course, the world will re-evaluate those who stood by and would have let a cataclysm occur in Benghazi.

[Lord St John of Fawsley]

My Lords, on behalf of all Back-Benchers in the House, perhaps I may express admiration for our gallant troops of both sexes in the war. It is not necessary for everybody to take up valuable time with that statement, so perhaps I may take it on myself to express it. Secondly, will the Minister use his influence to persuade the Prime Minister, who is universally and rightly recognised as a master of diplomacy, to use that gift to persuade as many Arab states as possible to come out openly in favour of this international coalition? What the Prime Minister has achieved permanently—I hope that the Minister will agree—is to make international affairs part of the national interest. Perhaps he or another senior Minister will write to Mr Tony Blair and quote the words of a great Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, who wrote to Harold Laski, then chairman of the Labour Party:

“A period of silence from you would be most welcome”.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join my noble friend, as I know the House does, in paying tribute to our troops who have reacted immensely quickly to the challenges put upon them and who even now are in action or redeploying—particularly the RAF—to a new forward base in southern Italy. My noble friend encouraged me to use my influence with the Prime Minister to urge him to encourage Arab states to stay on board. The Prime Minister needs absolutely no encouragement from me. He is actively involved in this work and is speaking by telephone to members of the Arab League continually. There were stories yesterday in the news that the Arab League was withdrawing its support because of civilian casualties. I can confirm that that is not the case. The Secretary-General, Amr Moussa, said:

“It is for the Security Council to take decisions as it sees fit. What we did in the Arab League is make an official request to impose a no-fly zone on military activities against the Libyan people”.

In creating these alliances and coalitions, a lot of people need to be brought together. This needs continual diplomatic work and the Prime Minister is at the forefront of that.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, perhaps I may carry on that theme by suggesting to the Leader of the House that it is not a question just of the Arab League giving diplomatic support. Will he assure the House that we will ensure that the Arab League takes part militarily in the operation—the more members, the better—and that if it does not, and if we find that Arab support evaporates, we will think very hard about extricating ourselves from this military action?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an extremely good point. Qatar is sending military assistance. We anticipate further assistance from other Arab League members, although we are currently not in a position to say what form this will take. Arab partners made it clear that if the action was authorised by a Security Council resolution, they would contribute military assets. We are continuing to discuss this with them and to lobby our partners to contribute to a coalition force from both NATO and the wider international community.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, we on this side support the credible and convincing case made by the Prime Minister in the other place. The legality of the action is not in question, because the systematic slaughter and violation of international and human rights law by Gaddafi against his own population demand action. The protection of civilians must be the top priority as the collateral damage would be exploited by Gaddafi. Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord three pertinent questions. The first concerns his statement about Amr Moussa’s interpretation of Resolution 1973. Are we absolutely sure that at this stage he understands our position? Is he able to help us, as Qatar is doing, in terms of military action against Gaddafi? Secondly, the role of the African Union should not be underestimated, particularly when mercenaries from some African countries are being used by Gaddafi. We still have to face the question of the large number of refugees who are now on the borders of Libya. Thirdly, the exit strategy must be clearly stated. Irrespective of the fate of the Libyan dictator, the solution must remain a matter for the Libyan people.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his opening remark that the legality is not in question. He is right in that. We have received the clearest possible advice on the legal basis. The Security Council resolution is extremely clear without any ambiguity and the breaking of that resolution is equally clear. I also agree with my noble friend that the most vital aspect of the work taking place under the auspices of that Security Council resolution is the protection of civilians in Libya. Within that, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord West, the support of the Arab League and the African Union is also extremely important. Diplomatic efforts are being vigorously carried out across the world. Finally, my noble friend asked about the exit strategy. We have made it very clear for a long time that we believe that Colonel Gaddafi has lost the support and confidence of his people. However, in the first place, we wish to see peace and for the people of Benghazi to be able to go about their lives in a peaceful manner. We will review the situation from time to time and will see how events unfold in the days and weeks ahead.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, this episode, if I may call it that, which has given rise to discussion today, is characteristic of the unpredictability of foreign affairs and it indicates the way in which something very alarming has to be addressed urgently. I hope that the House will join me in welcoming the caution, comprehensiveness, clarity and courage with which this problem has been addressed, as well as our satisfaction that there is anything but complacency about it. We shall need to be careful and watchful. However, we can express great confidence in the decisions taken so far and extend our strongest support for the continuation of this approach to the problem.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I very much welcome what my noble and learned friend has said with all his experience and knowledge not just as a former Foreign Secretary but as someone who has witnessed many different international crises and events over a long period. I assure him that there is no complacency and I know that he understands that. I very much welcome his continued support and encouragement. I hope that he will avail himself of any briefing that we can offer so as to keep himself entirely up to speed.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, it is immensely reassuring that the Government are showing determination that our courageous service men and women should operate within the context of international law and under the authority of the Security Council. I am sure that there is widespread support for that determination on the part of the Government. However, does the noble Lord agree that, ultimately, the long-term stability of Libya and of other Arab countries is dependent on the people being in control of their own destiny? It is their struggle and they have to find the solutions; and whether or not there should be regime change is in their hands. Is it not, therefore, essential for us to avoid at all costs being directly or indirectly seduced into what could be seen as political manipulation of the situation? Can the noble Lord also say a word about the predicament of the large number of refugees, many of whom are, in effect, stateless?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I welcome what the noble Lord has said about us operating within the context of international law and with the full support of a UN Security Council resolution. The noble Lord is also entirely correct in talking about long-term stability being in the hands of the Libyan people. If the western powers—perhaps I can put it as loosely as that—were seen to be imposing some kind of solution on Libya, it would not work. I totally agree with what the noble Lord said: the future of Libya must lie in the hands of its people and they must decide how best to run their affairs. That is part of what all this is about: by protecting civilians, we give the people the ability to have a choice to aspire to change, as has happened more peacefully in other parts of the Middle East.

The noble Lord also asked about humanitarian aid for those who find themselves stateless. I suspect that that could easily become a growing problem but DfID has played a key role and has already provided tens of thousands of blankets, more than 1,400 family tents and charter planes which have returned more than 6,000 people to their countries. The number of arrivals in transit camps is now falling; as of 20 March, some 5,874 people remain at the transit camp and DfID, with many other partners, is continuing to work to reduce the number.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, if Gaddafi were to disappear from the scene tomorrow, he would leave behind him a non-functional community, and no continued imposition of a no-fly zone would of itself give any real protection at all to that community? In the circumstances, does he agree that the temptation may be very great for land forces to be used to bring about that very result? Will he endorse something that I think he has already touched on, in so far as Her Majesty's Government’s interpretation of the relevant resolution is concerned—after all it is a political and not a judicial decision—that he would abjure completely the possibility of land troops being used?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, however desirable it would be for Colonel Gaddafi to disappear tomorrow, I can confirm that this country will not be tempted to use land forces to bring that about.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords, perhaps I can invite the Minister to clarify that point which might be open to misunderstanding. Although it is true that the UN Security Council resolution forbids or does not cover any invasion or occupation, there is nothing in that resolution which would inhibit us using military assets to do something like rescue a downed pilot.

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, I regard that as a very different point and I am able to clarify that to my noble friend.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, the House has heard an admirably clear account of how we got here. I was not as convinced by the way in which the noble Lord brushed aside the question of where we go next. I agree that it is hard to predict the future, but it is good to know where you want to go; that is called having war aims. It seems to me that, as of today, the analogy is with the first Iraq war when we had, as now, a very clear legal base in a Security Council resolution—new and specific—and we had widespread support in the region and in the Muslim world generally. I believe that that is the case now; I hope that it is. We also had very clear war aims. We were going to restore the independence of Kuwait. Therefore, the exit strategy was absolutely clear.

This time, it is so important to retain the support of the Muslim world and the Middle East that it is crucial that the Prime Minister, who moved with admirable speed last week, should move no less fast this week to agree war aims with the Defence Secretary and the Foreign Secretary, across the Government, with Paris and Washington and our other NATO partners and across the Middle East, so that we are clear where it is we want to go. I hope that the noble Lord will pass that message on.

[Lord Strathclyde]

That is a good point well made. The comparison with the clarity of the Gulf War involving Kuwait is a good one, but the timing was so different. We were faced last week with the possible annihilation of opposition forces in Benghazi. I accept the noble Lord’s implied criticism, which I know is meant in a constructive and friendly way, that clear objectives are harder to define. I hasten to add that I hope that I did not brush over that too much. The fact that we have saved civilian lives from the violence of their own regime already is a success and an objective. Enforcing the no-fly zone by damaging Libyan anti-aircraft assets is already a significant change. That means that coalition forces can fly over Libya to enforce the no-fly zone. We believe that that will lead to the Libyan people having a better chance of determining their own destiny than before.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend. As someone who has been involved in Anglo-Libyan commercial relations for the past five or six years, I have, needless to say, received with the greatest distress what has been happening in Libya in recent weeks: the wholesale slaughter of civilians and the wounding of a great many more. I am bound to say, therefore, that I very much agree with the action that the Government took first at the United Nations and then in joining the military operations of recent days.

However, we have to be careful about the objectives that we are seeking, both military and political. The military objectives are surely simply to pave the way towards the political objectives; and the political objective seems clear, which is to provide for the people of Libya an opportunity to choose for themselves in a free and fair way who should be their leaders.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I acknowledge my noble friend’s great understanding of Anglo-Libyan relations. I thank him for his support of the actions of Her Majesty's Government. I particularly agree with the clarity with which he put the objective, which is to provide for the people of Libya to choose their own future and political destiny.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The noble Lord said that the primary objective is the protection of civilians. Surely under the terms of the UN Security Council resolution, that is the only objective, however tempted one might be to go further along that road and intervene in a civil war on one side or the other. The noble Lord has heard the concern about the position of the Arab League: unless and until it goes beyond words to action, there will be strains within the coalition. I hope that, with the Government, he will seek to impress on the Arab League that more is expected of it than just brave words and that it should be with us all the way.

Will the noble Lord say a little about the position of countries, perhaps in the Arab League, seeking to provide arms to the rebels? Does the UN arms embargo apply to both sides or would it be legitimate under international law for countries to provide arms to the rebels?

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made it clear that there is very limited civil society in Libya. The European Union is experienced in providing and buttressing civil society and in providing aid, but clearly Arab nations will have to take the lead. Can the Minister give an assurance that we in the European Union are urgently looking at means of providing aid on political, economic and social infrastructure to help Libya look to a brighter future?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises useful and interesting questions. Under the Security Council resolution, there are two clear objectives. The first is to protect civilians and the second is to enforce the no-fly zone. They are enormously interrelated, but we believe that protecting civilians is a key objective. We have already discussed the wider coalition, the alliance across different nations and groups, including the Arab League. The Arab League has confirmed that it would be willing to offer military support, and I am sure that some members of it will do so.

The arms embargo is for the nation of Libya as a whole. Therefore, any arms shipped to the opposition or to rebel groups would be illegal under the Security Council resolution. On the EU role post conflict, I, too, believe that the EU has a substantial role to play. No doubt there are those within the EU working on how that might work in practice. It could only work with co-operation. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who talked about working in co-operation with the Muslim world. I agree with both noble Lords on that point.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House share my concern that in an increasingly volatile region there are already those who for their own ends are using somewhat inflammatory language and trying to construct a religious narrative around these unfolding events? In this account, a vulnerable Islamic population is being subjected to an opportunistic attack by a powerful Christian West. Not only does such a narrative have the power to destabilise the wider Middle East region, but it could impact very negatively on community relations in this country. Does this not underline the point that has already been made about the need not only to continue to work with but to retain the confidence of the council of the Arab League? Will the Leader talk about other ways in which the Government might be attempting to counter such a narrative and deny it the currency that it could begin to gain that would be so damaging to intercommunity relations here?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter raises some extremely important points. We will have all seen in the press and on our television those who have used inflammatory language for their own ends. There is no religious angle here whatever. This country and the United Nations are motivated by a humanitarian desire to bring some sort of peace and opportunity to the people of Libya. The best way for us to put that message across, including to communities in this country, is to repeat it and to explain what is really happening. It is a very human approach across humanity that crosses religious boundaries that we should seek to work together to bring peace and stability to this region.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, given that it has taken 28 minutes for a Muslim, and indeed a woman, to get in on these questions, I wonder whether I, coming from the Muslim world, may ask my noble friend whether he agrees that, had we stood by and done nothing, it would have appeared to the 1.5 billion people in the Muslim world that our warm words were hypocrisy of the most egregious order.

My noble friend dealt with the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, by saying that he thought that the arms embargo applied to every entity in Libya. I refer him to Paragraph 4 of UN Resolution 1973, which seems to indicate that it is possible, under protecting civilians and civilian-populated areas, notwithstanding Paragraph 9 of UN Resolution 1970, for people to participate in giving armed assistance to the insurgents. Will he say whether the Government are talking to the Gulf Co-operation Council states to help financially, even if they are not prepared to do so militarily?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her useful intervention. She is quite right to talk about what would have happened if we had stood by and a massacre had taken place and about the countries and the peoples who would have accused us of allowing it to happen without raising a hand in protest.

My noble friend also talked about the Security Council resolution. My answer to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, is also correct and allows me to clarify the position. As I understand it, arms may be supplied, but—this is key—only with the express approval of the United Nations Security Council sanctions committee. That is a key hurdle. There is no ability simply to arm different parts of Libya at will; it has to be done with the agreement of the United Nations.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. He mentioned that the Libyan air defence system had been knocked out—an essential prerequisite for setting up a no-fly zone. The cost of doing that is not inconsiderable; Tomahawks check out at about £500,000, and Sky Shadows for not much less. Hopefully there will be no need to use so many of those weapons in the future. Nevertheless, the cost already of these operations and the ongoing cost will not be inconsiderable. Will the Minister confirm that these costs will be met entirely from the contingency fund and not from the defence vote?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, much as I would like to, I cannot confirm that to the noble and gallant Lord. I can, however, confirm again that the air defences have been broadly knocked out. Of course the noble and gallant Lord, with all his considerable experience, understands the cost of these arms, but this is the kind of action that we would expect our Armed Forces to be able to deal with. If costs escalate substantially over the next few weeks, no doubt the Secretary of State for Defence and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will need to discuss where this money will come from.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord referred to resources. Since the primary purpose of this is the protection of civilians, and since the regime is the biggest threat to civilians, in the absence of either a change of heart by the regime, which seems highly improbable, or a change of regime, we have to consider that this no-fly zone might be sustained for the long term as necessary. In Iraq, for instance, to protect the Kurds in the north and the Marsh Arabs in the south, one such zone lasted for 12 years. Will the noble Lord assure us that the Government not only have the resolve to stay the course on this but, following some of the comments that have just been made, that we have the resources to continue to play our part in it in the light of the recent defence review?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Reid, asks an immensely good question. He is right to say that it might be for the long term, and none of us can say at this stage what the long term is. We have taken decisions over the course of the past few weeks on the need for a no-fly zone and we have constructed an international alliance. We will wish to maintain that and to get other countries to provide military assets. If we are successful in doing so then there is every reason to believe that the pressure that is being brought on the regime will prove a success. I think that all noble Lords listening to this exchange will have different views about what “long term” will mean. We will have to see how these events unfold before we can take a final decision on what the longest-term commitment from the United Kingdom will be.

[Lord Chidgey]

My Lords, if we are to learn the lessons of Iraq, is it not essential that, during the operations currently under way, we do everything that we can to protect the power stations, the water supply, sanitation—all the public sector infrastructure? In that context can the noble Lord tell us whether our cross-government stabilisation unit—not just DfID but also, across departments, the FCO and the MoD—is at the heart of the medium and long-term stabilisation planning? Is the stabilisation planning feeding into the decision-making now? We learnt from Iraq that it has to be a current process, not a past idea. Finally, will the UN lead stabilisation efforts in the medium and long term? We should play our part but, clearly, this needs to be an international concern.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that this is a concern. Of course, what has been happening is that it is Colonel Gaddafi and his troops and other armed forces who have been causing such difficulty and damage to electricity and water supplies, particularly in the town of Misurata. It is no part of the coalition’s objective to try to degrade those kinds of not just economic but humanitarian assets.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, as regards Security Council Resolution 1973, would not the Leader of the House also agree that the decision of China two weeks ago to support the referral of Colonel Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court firmly puts human rights at the heart of this issue? In that regard, the Leader said in the Statement that Libya has been suspended from the United Nations Human Rights Council. Does he agree that it something of a paradox that a country that was responsible for the killing of WPC Fletcher, responsible for the Lockerbie bombing and responsible for the atrocities now being committed against its own citizens was ever a member of that body in the first place? As we come to review the membership of the Human Rights Council, should we not also review our arms policies? British arms are not only being used now in this theatre in Libya but also being deployed elsewhere in the Middle East against pro-democracy demonstrators.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord says that it is a paradox and he is entirely right—it is a paradox. We remember not only WPC Fletcher and the atrocity of Lockerbie but also the years of support for the IRA perpetrated by Colonel Gaddafi. We have a very robust arms policy in place. As I know the noble Lord believes and clearly understands, the aim of that policy is to keep continually under review what is exported and to which country it is exported.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, 95 per cent of Libya’s export earnings come from oil and gas, and 75 per cent of all Libyan oil is exported to western Europe. Surely the issue of oil flows and the destination of revenue must be a consideration in the mind of Governments when key decisions are taken on the way to proceed. We have a lot at stake in terms of oil.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, our overriding objective is to protect the civilian population in Libya; that is the purpose of the action that we have taken. But the noble Lord is right to say that regimes can be sustained by their revenues, including those from oil. This question is in the mind not only of the Government but of the United Nations.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Will my right honourable and noble friend bear in mind that very serious allegations have been made from within Libya that Colonel Gaddafi had foreknowledge of the Lockerbie outrage before it occurred? Will he also keep in mind that the Lord Advocate in Scotland has said that she may consider reopening the Lockerbie case?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is extremely important and valuable. I am sure that it is entirely right for the Lord Advocate in Scotland to keep the case closely under review.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, following the questions put by my noble friend Lord Reid and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, has any thought been given to British aircraft operating from bases in France? At present, they have to make a 3,000-mile round trip.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, British aircraft are currently relocating to bases in southern Italy.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, while no one envies the grave task of my noble friend and my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in wrestling with these great decisions, can he confirm that the UN Security Council resolution was supported by only 10 members out of 15? The five countries that abstained included the likes of India, Germany and Brazil. Their reservations were that they felt that diplomatic channels had not been exhausted; that there was a risk that this action would galvanise support behind Gaddafi; and that military action would also pose a risk to civilians.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, different countries take different decisions at different times. No country voted against the Security Council resolution; 10 out of 15 voted in favour, and only nine votes were required for it to be carried. Events as they unfold demonstrate that it was right to take military action over the course of the weekend and to protect civilians on the ground.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debates on the motions in the names of Baroness Williams of Crosby and Baroness Walmsley set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

House of Lords: Life Peerages

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend that the life Peers they have appointed should be Peers for life.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, the Government confirm that they have no plans to remove the peerage from those in receipt of that honour.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, that is a very, very welcome Answer. I am almost at a loss for words. I am so much at a loss that I want to have it rephrased. Is the noble Lord actually saying that everyone currently a life Peer will remain a Peer for life? If he is saying that, I suggest to him that he is getting himself out of an awful lot of difficulty, but if he is not saying that—he is looking very quizzical now, so perhaps I was not getting a straight answer to a straight question. Let me simply put it to him that it would be a bit cynical if the same Government who have created 119 new life Peers since the general election, all of whom are making a terrific contribution to the work of this House, are at the same time, according to his interview with the Financial Times at any rate, planning to remove us and replace us with senators by 2015. I suggest to him that given that, so far, there has been no agreement whatever on the powers and functions of any reformed second Chamber, the simple thing for him to do—I imagine it would be a relief to the Government—would be to pick up the splendid House of Lords Reform Bill in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and take it forward as government policy.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thought I had been entirely straight with the noble Lord. A peerage is for life. That honour should remain, but it should not necessarily guarantee a seat in the House of Lords. The noble Lord knows that well because he knows that the Government are committed to House of Lords reform, as all major parties agree that reform is needed and this coalition Government provide the opportunity to determine final proposals that can be put to Parliament after there has been a Joint Committee of both Houses.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, my Letters Patent give me the right to sit here for life. I assume my noble friend’s Letters Patent do the same. Are we to attach more importance to the Letters Patent from the Queen or to the views of the temporary Deputy Prime Minister?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, in the passage of the House of Lords Act 1999 we went through this quite a lot. In the end, the view was that statute law could vary the terms of the Writ of Summons. Therefore, if it was the will of Parliament that life Peers should not be guaranteed a place in the House of Lords, I do not think there would be any problem.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if membership of the House is to reflect the crude statistic of the national vote at the most recent general election, when can we expect to have 21 UKIP Members of this House and 14 British National Party Members?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have no plans to introduce members of those parties at the moment. Of course, if there was an elected House, it would be up to the electorate to decide who should sit in this House.

[The Earl of Onslow]

My Lords, is there not something totally glorious and hypocritical about the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, saying please may his peerage be guaranteed but those promises to elected successors of mine, which could be in the fairly near future, should be taken away?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is good to see my noble friend speaking in this House, as he has done for many years, and long may that continue. Different people will take a different view of what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said but he has been entirely consistent since coming here in wishing to preserve the House more or less as it is. It is an important point of view, although not one with which the Government agree.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, too, has been entirely consistent in being a passionate exponent of an elected House. But yesterday he told the House that he expected that dozens, indeed hundreds, of new coalition Peers would be appointed over the next few years. Can I take that as indicating that he is therefore not very optimistic about the prospect of substantive reform?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, neither is the case. While there is an appointed House, it is always open to the Prime Minister to appoint new Members to it on a cross-party basis and the noble Lord will have seen the coalition agreement on that. However, if Parliament passes a Bill for an elected House, elections would take place.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, will my noble friend acknowledge that since 1997, when a Government, of whom the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was a distinguished Member, were elected with a clear commitment to reform your Lordships’ House to include elected Members and, by implication, to end the life peerage, all of us who have been appointed know that we are term Peers in practical terms? Will he further acknowledge that the big difference since May of last year is that instead of just talking about this for 13 years we have a Government who are committed to action?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. I do not believe that any new Member of this House, before accepting this great honour and, indeed, a job, has not considered what might happen if a reform Bill is finally published.

Warm Home Discount Regulations 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft regulations and orders be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether under their plans for an elected House of Lords the Prime Minister could be a Member of the House of Lords.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, an important part of the plans for the reform of this House is the continued primacy of the House of Commons. The presence of the Prime Minister in the House of Commons therefore underlines that primacy.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Does my noble friend accept that in a number of bicameral systems in the world it is possible for a Prime Minister to be in either House? While it might not be acceptable to public opinion at the moment for a Prime Minister to sit in this House as it is presently constituted, if in, say, 10 years’ time this House is wholly elected, is deemed more legitimate and is demanding more powers, would it not be appropriate and necessary for there to be more senior Ministers in this House? Would it not be wrong for the Government’s legislation to exclude the possibility of a Prime Minister being in this House, as used to be the case right up to the early years of the 20th century?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am deeply impressed by my noble friend’s ambition—10 years to wait does not seem too long at all. The fact is that the Prime Minister is First Lord of the Treasury. It would a very strange thing, given the reduced powers of this House since 1911, for the Prime Minister to be a Member of this House. Therefore, we have no plan or proposal to make it so.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, if the programme of parliamentary reform led by the Deputy Prime Minister were to result in the other place continuing to be elected by first past the post, and the future Chamber here being elected through proportional representation as envisaged in the coalition agreement, who would have greater democratic legitimacy—MPs or elected Peers?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is of course an immensely good question, and it is one that we will return to many times over the next few months when the Deputy Prime Minister has published his White Paper and draft Bill. But I go back to the central point—which is that, under the terms of the 1911 Act, another place has primacy. We believe that that is where it should remain.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

Can the Leader of the House reaffirm his frequently stated opinion to this House that, in the event of there being an elected second Chamber, which I understand he has not been that keen on in the past, he would be strongly opposed to it being elected on the basis of proportional representation and would stick to first past the post? Secondly, is it correct, as reported in the FT last Thursday, that he expects there to be Senators in this House by 2015? If that is not correct, perhaps he could say so. If it is correct, can he please observe the normal proprieties of making crucial statements about the future of this House or of government policy to this House and not to the Financial Times?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, certainly has the power to embarrass me because it is certainly on the record that I am not one who favours proportional representation. However, it was in the coalition agreement that, in the event of there being an elected second Chamber, it would be under the system of proportional representation. So far as concerns the Financial Times, I am not sure that that is what I said. Of course, that will depend on the draft Bill being published soon and on the Joint Committee sitting in time for legislation to be passed so that an election can take place in 2015, and that will depend entirely on the will of Parliament.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

Does my noble friend agree that it would not necessarily interfere with the primacy of the House of Commons if all Ministers were answerable to the second Chamber on matters for which they had ministerial responsibility and, in particular, for the legislation that came from their departments?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is an interesting proposition and it will no doubt be dealt with in the forthcoming White Paper.

[Lord Boston of Faversham]

My Lords, does the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that it would not be possible for the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister to sit in this House because he is already a Member of another place? Does he therefore accept that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, should be allowed to amend his Question slightly proposing that a Prime Minister—I emphasise “a”—should be allowed to sit in this House? I say that even though I do not agree with the idea of an elected House of Lords.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, all things are possible but that is not part of the Government’s proposals.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, can the Leader tell the House whether the Government will continue to pursue the coalition agreement until 2015, which is the date when it is reported that he believes the changes will be in place? The agreement states:

“Lords appointments will be made with the objective of creating a second chamber that is reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last general election”—

that is, 86 more Conservative Peers and 99 more Liberal Democrat Peers.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, over time, we shall certainly wish to produce what is in the coalition agreement.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, is it not the case that this House always gives way in the end to the other place, because its Members are elected and we are not? If we were elected, would we not deny such possibilities occurring? Surely we would be bound to hold to our rights as well.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I accept that possibility, but there are well known processes for dealing with disagreements between both Houses. It is not without precedent. Over the past 40 years, the House of Lords and the House of Commons have come to disagreements that could only be resolved by turning to the Parliament Act.

Japan and the Middle East

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, this may be a convenient moment to repeat a Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place a few moments ago. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, before turning to discussions at last week’s European Council, I am sure the whole House will want to join me in sending our deepest condolences to the Japanese people following the earthquake and tsunami that struck their country over the past few days. We are all deeply shocked and saddened by the devastation that we have seen and by the loss of life, the full scale of which will take many days to comprehend. As yet there are no confirmed British fatalities but we have severe concerns about a number of British nationals. I spoke to our ambassador in Japan who was one of the first to get to the affected region and his team are working around the clock to help British nationals.

Over the weekend, we have had three rapid deployment teams of 20 staff operating in the worst affected areas. They will be augmented by a further team of 17 arriving in Tokyo this afternoon and advancing to the affected area tomorrow. They are working together to help British nationals caught up in the tragedy and to help find out information for the families who are so worried about them. We have set up a helpline for these families. It has taken several thousand calls and we are following up each lead.

We have, of course, offered humanitarian assistance to the Japanese Government and we stand ready to assist in any way that we can. At their request, a 63-strong UK search and rescue team, which includes medical personnel and two dogs, has already been deployed and arrived in Japan yesterday morning.

The whole House will have been concerned at the worrying situation at the nuclear power station at Fukushima. The Japanese Government have said that the emergency cooling system at three reactors at the plant has failed because of the tsunami. There have been explosions due to the release of hydrogen gas at both the Fukushima 1 and Fukushima 3 reactors. This is clearly a fast moving and rapidly changing picture, and the Japanese Government are doing everything that they can to manage the situation they are facing. We are in close touch with the Japanese authorities and have offered our nuclear expertise to help manage this very serious incident.

The Energy Secretary has asked the chief nuclear inspector, Dr. Mike Weightman, for a thorough report on the implications of the situation in Japan. The UK does not have reactors of the design of those in Fukushima and neither does it plan any; nor are we in a seismically sensitive zone. But if there are lessons to learn, we will learn them.

COBRA has met several times over the weekend and again this morning, and we will keep our response to this tragedy and our support for Japan and the wider Pacific region under close and continuous review. The devastation we are witnessing in Japan is of truly colossal proportions. It has been heart-breaking to listen to people who have had all their relatives, friends and livelihoods simply washed away. Those who have survived will not recognise the place where their homes once stood. We do not yet know the full and dreadful toll, nor can anyone truly understand the impact these events will have. Japan and the Japanese people are a resilient and resourceful nation. We have no doubt that they will recover. We will do all we can to aid and assist those affected and our thoughts are with the Japanese people.

Let me turn to the substance of Friday’s special European Council. The reason for having this Council was twofold: first, to make sure that Europe seizes this moment of opportunity to support the Arab people in North Africa and across the Middle East in realising their aspirations for a more open and democratic form of government; and secondly, to address the difficult situation in Libya. The Council addressed both of these issues and I will be frank with the House about where progress has been made and what more needs to be done.

The first is supporting the building blocks of democracy in the Arab world. The aim should be a big, bold and comprehensive offer to those countries in our southern neighbourhood that want to move towards becoming more open societies. There was some real success. The Council declaration talks of a “new partnership” founded on,

“broader market access and political co-operation”,

and with an approach that gears support to those countries where progress is being made in meeting their citizens’ aspirations. This could be so much better than the failed approach of the past. But now Europe needs to follow through on its declaration with a real and credible offer to these countries based on the prospects of deeper economic and trade economic integration with the EU, and the free movement of goods, services and investment.

Turning to Libya, it was right for the EU to meet and discuss how we can work together to deal with this crisis. There has been considerable international co-operation on evacuation. We have now got over 600 British nationals out and have assisted over 30 other nationalities. Around 220 British nationals remain in Libya, the overwhelming majority of whom are long-term residents, and many are, of course, dual nationals or the spouses of Libyan nationals. Many of this group have told us they wish to remain in Libya, but a number of other British nationals are now contacting us for the first time. We will stay in contact with these people and continue to assist those who wish to leave.

We have also been at the forefront of the response to the humanitarian situation in Libya and on its borders, but we remain deeply concerned by the humanitarian situation for people inside Libya caught up in the fierce fighting, and the Development Secretary has repeatedly called for the protection of civilians and for unfettered humanitarian access to those in need.

On further isolating the Gaddafi regime, the Council made good progress. Two weeks ago, we put in place a tough UN Security Council resolution and agreed in record time asset freezes, travel bans and an arms embargo, as well as referral to the International Criminal Court. At this Council, all European leaders were united, categorical and crystal clear that Gaddafi must “relinquish power immediately”. We widened the restrictive measures against individuals close to Gaddafi and strengthened the financial sanctions on the regime, adding the Libyan central bank and the Libyan Investment Authority to the EU asset-freezing list. In doing so, the UK has increased the total of frozen Libyan assets in this country from £2 billion to £12 billion.

We now need to make clear the next measures in terms of putting further pressure on the regime and planning for what other steps may be necessary. Two weeks ago, I told this House that I believed contingency planning should be done, including plans for a no-fly zone. NATO is now carrying out that work. As we have said before, a no-fly zone would need international support based on three clear conditions: demonstrable need, regional support and a clear legal basis.

In recent days, first the Gulf Co-operation Council and now the Arab League have called for a no-fly zone. In terms of the European Council, of course, the EU is not a military alliance and there is always a hesitation in discussing military options, but the Council expressed its,

“deep concern about attacks against civilians, including from the air”,

and agreed that member states will “examine all necessary options” for protecting the civilian population, provided there is a demonstrable need, a clear legal basis and support from the region. There was some progress, especially compared with where Europe was in advance of Friday’s Council, but we need to continue to win the argument for a strong response in the international community, Europe included.

Along with others in the United Nations Security Council, the UK is following up urgently the lead given by the Arab League by drafting a resolution, which sets out the next measures that need to be taken, including the option of a no-fly zone. Included in the resolution in our view should be much tougher measures against mercenaries and the states from which they come, as well as others who are attempting to breach the sanctions and assist Gaddafi.

Every day Gaddafi is brutalising his own people. Time is of the essence. There should be no let-up in the pressure we put on this regime. I am clear where British national interest lies. It is in our interests to see the growth of open societies and the building blocks of democracy in north Africa and the Middle East, and when it comes to Libya we should be clear about what is happening. We have seen the uprising of a people against a brutal dictator and it will send a dreadful signal if their legitimate aspirations are crushed, not least to others striving for democracy across the region.

To those who say it is nothing to do with us, I simply respond: do we want a situation where a failed pariah state festers on Europe’s southern border, potentially threatening our security, pushing people across the Mediterranean and creating a more dangerous and uncertain world for Britain and for all our allies as well as for the people of Libya? My answer is clear: that is not in Britain’s interests. That is why Britain will remain at the forefront of Europe in leading the response to this crisis. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for her warm words. I very much welcome those words of support for the people of Japan, but they come as no surprise to me because one thing that this country is good at—and this Parliament in particular—is showing solidarity when in another part of the world an immense tragedy has befallen people.

I also thank the noble Baroness for her tribute to the FCO. She is right in pointing out that it has a lot on its plate at the moment. The FCO is using its resources effectively and has established crisis centres; it has learnt a lot over many years on how to deal with these emergencies and is able to focus its response not just on Japan but on Libya, preparing for potential crises as they come about. We are living in the most uncertain of uncertain times, and I believe that the FCO continues to do sterling work. In particular, the ambassador in Japan, David Warren, and his team are doing a remarkable job in providing support.

The noble Baroness’s suggestion of targeting resources on helping to reunite people who are lost is extremely wise and sensible. I am sure that officials have thought of that; I had not, and I thought that it was extremely useful. Likewise, I welcome the noble Baroness’s comments about the UK search and rescue teams. They are an important group of people with immense experience, knowledge and ability in finding people under the most difficult circumstances. They have moved quickly; they are on-site and working hard.

The noble Baroness asked me about the publication of the report of Her Majesty's Nuclear Installations Inspectorate. We do not yet know what form the report will take, but when a report is made, clearly, a decision will be taken on whether to publish it. I cannot imagine the circumstances under which it would not be published.

Turning to the situation in the Middle East and Libya in particular, the noble Baroness said that it was a grave and depressing situation; she is completely right in that. We have been very keen to see co-operation across alliances and countries for the no-fly zone concept. We have been much supported in that view by the Arab League. I shall look into why the Arab League's communiqué has not been published; if it is publishable, I shall ensure that she gets a copy and that a copy is placed in the Library of the House.

In the UN, we are working closely with our allies—in particular, France—to draft a resolution that will maximise support among all those whom we need to influence. I cannot give any update as to when the new resolution will be tabled, but I hope that it will be soon. The International Criminal Court is of course an independent body. It is not for the UK Government to make that referral; that has already been done by the United Nations. The United Nations has communicated with the ICC and has asked it to look into that. I am not sure what would be gained by the UK doing that separately, but I will certainly pass that question to officials. The noble Baroness produced some useful intelligence as to what is happening on the ground in Benghazi and Tobruk.

Finally, the noble Baroness rightly asked about progress on the Middle East peace process. As has been said many times at this Dispatch Box—under this Government and the previous one—there is an opportunity to start this work again, to seek to complete it. This weekend, the Council communiqué states at paragraph 17:

“The European Union is conscious of the wider political and economic impact of these events on the wider region and calls for reactivating the Middle East Peace Process”.

That was included specifically at the request of the United Kingdom Government. It is very important that we should start that up. There is an opportunity that should not be missed; if it is missed, it will be a failure on all our parts not to have done everything to ensure that it continues.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Perhaps I may press the noble Lord a little on the UN aspect. I know that drafting UN resolutions is quite complicated, but it does not take two weeks, which is what we have been saying is going on in New York. Has the time not now come to put down a resolution on the table? It is only when a resolution is on the table that people are forced to take a position on it. With the Arab League now supporting a no-fly zone, the tactical situation should have changed quite a lot.

Will the Leader confirm that, so far as legitimacy or a legal basis is concerned, this country flew sorties to enforce a no-fly zone in Iraq for 12 years without a specific authorisation from the UN? During that time, no one challenged the legality of that, although it was based on a Chapter 6 resolution that had no mandatory force. There is now a Chapter 7 resolution on Libya, which requires Colonel Gaddafi to stop repressing his people. The legitimacy or legality—whichever you like to call it—of acting even without a UN authorisation is therefore rather clear, as was the case also in Kosovo.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, with his former experience, brings to the House a knowledge that is shared by few. I am sure that he is right that the sooner a resolution is tabled the better, but it will not be tabled until we, the French and our other allies feel that we have adequate support. I have no further news to give on that situation. I note what the noble Lord said about the legal basis or legitimacy. He made a useful comparison with Iraq and Kosovo. These issues are being actively discussed at the moment.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, does the UN arms embargo apply to both sides? The Arab League and the Gulf Cooperation Council have said very welcome words about a no-fly zone. Does that extend to an offer to supply military assets in support of a no-fly zone? The Statement referred to increased political co-operation with the countries of the Maghreb and the southern flank of the Mediterranean. Earlier efforts—for example, the Barcelona process of 1995 and the Union for the Mediterranean of President Sarkozy—have failed for clear political reasons, including the position of Israel, Morocco and Algeria over the Polisario. What indications are there that this effort will be any more successful than the past failed efforts?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we are obviously operating under very different conditions. It is impossible to say at this stage whether what everybody is seeking will be successfully achieved. It is a fast-moving picture in Libya, as it is in the rest of the Middle East. My understanding is that the Arab League, while supporting the no-fly zone, has not made any offer of physical assets.

[Lord Hurd of Westwell]

The Statement mentioned the freeze on Libyan assets, whose strengthening I welcome, but are the Government happy about the state of affairs as regards Libyan oil revenues? Can my noble friend give us any assurance that oil revenues will not trickle into the pockets of Colonel Gaddafi?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, not only have we taken a very firm line from the beginning of this process on freezing the assets of Colonel Gaddafi and his close associates and family, but that has been extended this weekend in the European Council. As a result of this cumulative effort, £12 billion of assets has now been frozen in the United Kingdom. On top of that, as my noble friend will know, we have removed Gaddafi’s head-of-state exemptions from UK controls and we have prohibited the export of uncirculated Libyan banknotes from the UK. There are of course other countries that will wish to undermine these sanctions, but we, with our allies—and there is a very united view about this—will do everything that we can to make sure that Gaddafi feels the pain of sanctions as quickly as possible.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, I welcome the support that Her Majesty’s Government are giving to the drafting of a Security Council resolution on the option of a no-fly zone. May I emphasise that in the search for legality a Security Council resolution is the only real, universally accepted basis, difficult as it may sometimes be to get? Any other basis is where there is an agreed international understanding that there is an overwhelming human disaster, such as with the Kurds, the Marsh Arabs or in Kosovo, where I was involved. Will the noble Lord give an indication that such a situation has not yet arrived, brutal as the regime in Libya is? Will he indicate the Government’s thinking on that? At the same time, will he perhaps encourage the Americans to join the International Criminal Court, which our Government set up?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I will not be drawn on that final question, but the noble and learned Lord again raises some valuable and useful material about the legal basis, in particular the resolution at the United Nations. We want to get the widest possible support for action—in the EU, within NATO and among our wider allies, as well as in the United Nations. It is difficult to forecast at this stage exactly what kind of support that will be, but it is useful that we should try as hard as possible to get that unified view.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, serious concern has been expressed about the cooling system in the three nuclear reactors in Japan. When the nuclear inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, produces his report, will it be made available to the public and will full account be taken of it before we in the United Kingdom proceed with our nuclear power stations here? Also, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, rightly asked about the position of the Obama Government on a no-fly zone. What discussions have taken place and where do the Government stand on this issue?

[Lord Strathclyde]

As the Statement pointed out, the types of nuclear installation affected in Japan are not ones that we have in Britain, nor are any of them planned. However, it was entirely right to invite the nuclear inspector to give us a report to see what lessons can be learnt. I told the noble Baroness that I did not know what form that report would take. I cannot imagine the circumstances under which it would not be published, but I cannot confirm that at this stage. Apart from anything else, if lessons are to be learnt, the more widely those views are propagated the better. Concerning discussions with the United Nations, those are obviously ongoing within NATO and President Obama has given his full support to NATO looking at the planning of such an operation.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, is it not the case that—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, while I welcome the statement from the Arab League and do not in any sense diminish its importance, does the Leader of the House think that there is any real prospect of countries which are part of the Arab League and which have the military capacity taking part in the no-fly zone operation? Does he think that seeking such support would be a help or a hindrance to getting a resolution through the Security Council?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there are members of the Arab League that would have the capability to involve themselves in policing a no-fly zone, but I sense that we are a long way from that at this stage. There is still a diplomatic process to be completed of resolutions in the United Nations, but there is certainly no bar to making the co-operation across nations and alliances as wide and as deep as possible.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, is not the technical legal situation fairly straightforward and simple? Under Article 39 of the United Nations charter, where there has been a threat to peace or an act of aggression the Security Council is entitled to take that into account; it appears to have made a ruling on that basis. That triggers Article 42 of the charter, which allows—it is permissive, not mandatory—the Security Council to use any measure, including the use of force in the air, on land and at sea. However, prudence and practicality might well suggest that, for a no-fly zone to succeed, it would be necessary for there to be an elimination of the 20 or more surface-to-air missile sites that lace the coastal belt in Libya. Very great caution should be exercised before coming to such a decision.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree that there should be caution. I am less with the noble Lord that these legal matters are clear and simple; so far as I can see they are immensely complicated. That is why we want the widest international support from Europe, the Arab League and beyond, and it is why we are working in the United Nations to draft a resolution with France. Things need to be taken step by step—we are not going to overreach ourselves—and we are working with our partners at the United Nations, in NATO and in the US to look at all the options. It is clear that a no-fly zone needs international support, a clear trigger and a legal basis; no country will go for it alone. The question of the surface-to-air missiles that the noble Lord raises, and of Libya’s whole defence resources, will no doubt be taken into account.

[Lord Eden of Winton]

My Lords, I revert to the horrendous events that have so tragically overtaken Japan. Although it is clearly much too early to form any picture as to what happened at Fukushima’s nuclear power plants, is it not remarkable that those buildings, which were so close to the centre of the earthquake, seem to have withstood so successfully the onslaught to which they must have been subjected?

The second point that I want to make concerns the peace process in the Middle East. Given what has been happening throughout northern Africa and elsewhere, is there not evidence that the youth of those countries are desperate for greater freedom and a more secure economic basis for their existence? Would this not therefore be a wise and helpful time for Israel to show some indication that it understands what is going on inside Gaza and to take some humanitarian steps to assist the people suffering there?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s first point about the nuclear installations, I agree that lessons need to be learnt—I am sure that they will be—in terms of siting and design of nuclear plants and in terms of what went wrong in the earthquake that led to the problems, which I am sure were unforeseen when the plants were originally built. That will come in not only our internal review, but those of the Japanese Government and any other international organisations. On the second point raised by my noble friend, I agree that there is an opportunity for Israel to, in his words, show that it understands what is happening right across the Middle East and to show a determination to seek a long-term peaceful solution.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, are we learning lessons from the past in the use of no-fly zones? Have Ministers considered the comments of Mr John Nichol, an air navigator in Bosnia and Iraq, who described delays in securing legal authorisation for interception and delays in securing clarity over rules of engagement, with the result that there was a high incidence of failure by opposition aircraft—indeed, thousands of failures by opposition aircraft—to observe no-fly zones? Before we go down this route, can we get absolute clarity for pilots as to what the rules of engagement are and when they can act? Without it, the policy will fail.

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord just said, including his correct warning about the dangers of delay. I agree with him about the importance for pilots of clarity about the rules of engagement and that the legal basis should be as wide as possible, to cover all those who are flying within the area. That is, of course, a lesson that we have learnt from the past, which I hope is being put into effect, but the first step is to get international agreement so that we can move forward with unity.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I welcome the changes that are now under way in the EU neighbourhood plans and in the conditions attaching to them. Does the Leader of the House agree that it is probably unlikely that there will be sufficient agreement for mounting an effective military intervention, even for the limited task of protecting the people of Cyrenaica who have established their own freedom? If so, will warning be given in good time to the leaders of the uprising that they will, in effect, not be defended or protected? Will sufficient transport be available for those involved in the insurgency who wish to leave the country? Are plans being made for where these people might wish to go?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a very wide question and it is difficult to answer. The noble Lord is right that we are seeking, through support for a no-fly zone, to protect the people of Libya who have been involved in the uprising. There are, of course, other options, such as the idea of a humanitarian corridor to allow people who wish to leave to do so. Nothing that I have seen leads me to believe that we are planning to put troops on the ground in any way. We believe that the best way of protecting these individuals is by supporting a no-fly zone.

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, will the Minister inform the House as to the attitude of Libya’s two neighbour states, Tunisia and Egypt, to the intervention of other countries to assist the freedom fighters and protesters inside Libya? In particular, for example, in connection with the no-fly zone, have there been any discussions with the authorities in those two countries as to the availability of airfields, which would not involve our putting infantry on the ground but would be an enormous contribution to the operation of a no-fly zone?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, our discussions and negotiations about the possibility of a no-fly zone will include Libya’s neighbours but, given the support from the Arab League at the weekend, I am much more optimistic about having the co-operation of those neighbours in playing a greatly supportive role, including the possibility, at least, of providing airfields.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Leader of the House for the Statement that he has made. We have talked previously about the domino effect gripping the Middle East and I wondered whether he would like to make some statement on the situation that we see emerging in Yemen and on the news stories that are reaching us about the Saudi intervention in Bahrain. Have the Government made any representations in that regard?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, just as I left my room to come to the Chamber, I saw reported on the television that the Saudi military had been invited by the Bahraini Government to go into Bahrain in order to restore law and order and to protect government buildings. I have no other information to give and certainly no official response from the British Government. However, my noble friend is right to raise what he called the “domino effect”. Right across the Middle East we have seen enormous changes taking place, and these will continue. The role of the British Government is to be supportive of groups of people who wish to change their lives and to meet their aspirations and we have called on Governments across that region to allow those people to achieve those aspirations.

Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft regulations, orders and code of recommended practice be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Wednesday 9 March to allow the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Motion agreed.