Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 22 November and Wednesday 24 November to allow the Finance (No. 2) Bill and the Equitable Life (Payments) Bill to be taken through all their remaining stages on those days.
Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with today to allow the adjourned debate on the second reading of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill to be taken after the motion in the name of Lord Strathclyde.
Interim Report: Leader's Group on Members Leaving the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That this House takes note of the Interim Report from the Leader’s Group on Members leaving the House (HL Paper 48).
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am delighted to open this short debate today on the interim report of the Leader’s Group, which was chaired admirably by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. The group was established in July with the terms of reference,
“to identify options for allowing members to leave the House of Lords permanently”.
The group has consulted widely and today’s debate provides a further opportunity for consultation. I look forward this afternoon to hearing the views of those noble Lords who will be speaking and I am sure that other noble Lords who read the official record will write in with their views.
We should begin by rehearsing the context of today’s debate. Over some time, there have been comments by a number of noble Lords that they would like to find a way to leave the House, although not usually to surrender their title at the same time. In every Session since 2007, such comments have distilled around the House of Lords Reform Bill, a Private Member’s Bill first introduced as far back as 2007 by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood. We have the inestimable pleasure of the Bill’s resurrection once again this Session. Although my noble friend is not down to speak in today’s debate, we have only to wait until 3 December when the Second Reading of the Bill is scheduled.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
The noble Lord does not need to wait until 3 December. I remind him that, in the days before we were locked together in unholy matrimony, as Leader of the Opposition he opposed my Bill, which included primary legislation on this very subject that is now recommended by the Hunt committee. Can I look forward to his support the week after next?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I say again what a pity it is that we will not hear the noble Lord’s full speech this afternoon. The luxury of being in opposition was that I could make these decisions on my own. As a member of the Cabinet there is a process to undergo, but I shall let him know well before 3 December whether the Government will support his Bill on this occasion. That was the first point of context—the debates that we had on my noble friend’s Bill.
The second point of context is that a system of leaving the House has existed since 1958 under the leave of absence scheme. When the scheme was introduced, Lord Home predicted that some hundreds of Peers would avail themselves of it. I hear the same forecasts today. When I took my seat in 1986, there were 1,096 Peers with Writs and 133—12 per cent—had taken leave of absence. That figure rose to 169—more than 15 per cent—in 1987-88. Today, 738 Members are eligible to sit and just 19—2.5 per cent—have taken leave of absence. Clearly, the reported tide of desire to leave the place is not being reflected in the leave of absence scheme. One question that we are all interested to explore is: what is the mystery ingredient that would translate the mere 19 on leave of absence into the hundreds that some have hoped for? After all, average daily attendance here this Session is 424, which is well over 300 fewer than our total number.
The third important context is the coalition agreement, which announced that the Government will publish a draft Bill for reform of your Lordships’ House. The draft Bill will be published in the new year and will be scrutinised—no doubt in some detail—by a Joint Committee of both Houses. The draft Bill will include plans for transition. I can give an undertaking to the House that we will be looking to see whether the fruits that ultimately emerge from the Leader’s Group and from this debate will help point us in the right direction for transitional arrangements. I very much hope that they will.
My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and the other members of the Group are in the process of considering the options for reducing the current size of the House. Today’s debate gives noble Lords a further opportunity to add their views about what steps, if any, should be taken. The options fall into three broad categories, which are covered in the interim report. First, there are steps that could be taken by the House itself, without the need for legislation, to provide for retirement. While there may be some disadvantages to this approach, at least it could be done quickly. It would provide a means of retirement that many Members would like to see. The other two options would require legislation. One option would provide the legislative underpinning for permanent voluntary resignation. The other would involve an element of compulsion, which could involve, for example, Members being excluded on grounds of age or length of service or the holding of elections to determine which Members should remain in the House.
I should touch briefly on the subject of financial provision, simply in order to rule out any payment for retirement for the time being. In the current context it would simply not be understood by the British people.
Although the context is clear, today’s debate is not about wider reform. It is not even about the Government’s view on whether and how Members should be allowed, or made, to leave the House. Today’s debate is about consultation, about hearing the views of as many noble Lords as possible and about giving them the opportunity to respond to the options set out in the interim report. My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and I look forward very much to hearing those contributions.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, what a fascinating, good natured and good humoured debate this has been. Noble Lords have dealt with this extremely interesting subject that affects all of us with great sensitivity, which is what it requires. This is my opportunity to respond to it. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I will not give the Government’s view, any more than he gave the Opposition’s view, as this is still a consultative process and, clearly, we have not made up our minds on what we should do about retirement from this House or about a longer-term transition under a reform process. However, as I said earlier, a Bill will be published early in the new year, which will, no doubt, allow us the opportunity to examine these issues.
As for the Bill of my noble friend Lord Steel, which we are to debate on 3 December, the response that will be given from this Dispatch Box will not be my response but will reflect the carefully considered view of the Government on the merits of my noble friend’s case. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, questioned the need to have new Peers. Other speakers in the debate admirably made the case for needing new Peers. We need to freshen up our numbers from time to time and we will be doing that very soon. If the only motivation for doing that is to allow the Government to win more Divisions, we would not be giving the Labour Party any extra Members at all. I can confirm that the Labour Party is currently the largest party group in the House of Lords, and after the new Peers enter the House it will still be the largest single party in the House of Lords. Even the coalition is still a minority and will continue to be a minority in the House as a whole.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
The fact is that if one takes into account the, shall we kindly say, limited voting of the Cross Benches—
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am afraid that is the case. If we take that into account, then the coalition Government have a practical majority in your Lordships' House. Over the years this House has developed a wonderful reputation as a revising Chamber. However, with the greatest respect, if the House is not able to cause the Government to think again, how on earth can it be a revising Chamber?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that I have absolutely no doubt that in the rest of this long Session the Government will be defeated on many occasions, not least with the support of Members of my own party and, indeed, of the coalition. As the noble Lord rightly says, this is a revising Chamber and we have all been here for long enough to know that that is exactly what happens.
I said that this has been an interesting debate and it has. Perhaps one of the most entertaining speeches was that of my noble friend Lord Ferrers. Those who heard it were not surprised to hear a vintage speech. If we ever have an age limit, it should be a movable one which should always be set at a year older than the age of my noble friend. I noted that the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington of Ribbleton, jumped up and reminded my noble friend of his views on women Peers in the 1950s. As we would expect, he dealt with that in a very gentlemanly way. However, he ought to remind the noble Baroness that in the House of Commons the party that voted against the introduction of women Peers was the Labour Party. The noble Baroness has cause to be glad that her party lost that vote in the 1950s. My noble friend Lord Ferrers said that we should blame politicians for the state that we are in, but we are where we are and we must go on.
Lord Strathclyde
I was also grateful to my noble friend Lord Alderdice. I am not sure whether he is a good Peer because he is a psychiatrist, or whether he is a good psychiatrist because of all his experiences that he has built up in the House of Lords. Whichever it is, his contribution was extremely helpful and he accepted the case—as many who spoke did—that we need to reduce the size of this House. There is a problem we need to look at. If it was easy, we would have got to the solution a long time ago and I would not have needed to ask my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral to sort this out, but I must say that after today’s debate I am very glad that I did. He is going to have a bit more work to do.
In his interim report, my noble friend cleared out some of the undergrowth. The next stage is to perhaps prune up one or two options to take forward. There was some consensus on the fact that the House was too big, but there was not overwhelming consensus on anything else, although some Peers felt more strongly about some things than others. I thought it was useful that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn spoke, because he said that the age limit on the Bishops worked very well. There is a time limit for Bishops, which works well and there is a system of one in, one out. Our problem is that we want to get to a lower number overall before we start a system of one in, one out.
On the question of money, there was some support for financial provision, but one or two Peers were wholly opposed. The public mood—or perhaps the press mood—is not with us at the moment, but that may change over time. It depends on how long this process will take and the business case that could be made.
Apart from my noble friend Lord Hodgson, who spoke bravely on the subject, there was not much demand for compulsion through the arbitrary nature of an age limit. Likewise, I join many Peers who said that dealing with those who do not attend does not really deal with the more fundamental problem. I feel very strongly that there are some Peers who come to this House very occasionally, but make very eminent contributions which are worth a little more than those of some of our noble colleagues who like to speak every week on many different subjects. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Ferrers for introducing me to the concept of the chattering classes in the House of Lords. Of course he is right. We are in this post-election phase whereby in the House of Commons there is a clear change of numbers. In the House of Lords, there is also a clear change of numbers, but it is very often as a result of those who were in another place coming here. They bring with them some of their habits from another place and they are all very keen to demonstrate that they have a lot to say. Many on all sides of the House do that. We are in a period of assimilation, and I suspect that in the next six or 12 months we will find that the incidence of participation will reduce. I certainly hope so, if that does not sound too much like the usual channels speaking.
My noble friends Lord Astor, Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Tyler said, among other things, that we need to prepare for change and to do something, and some of them felt that the proposal that Peers should be elected out—the culling that the noble Lord from the Opposition mentioned—was a blunt instrument, which it is, of course. We have been through the process 11 years ago, it is well precedented and we have seen how it would work. But my noble friend Lord Waddington said that he would be wholly opposed to a party slate—a beauty parade with all the difficulties that that would bring in. What was interesting about the original hereditary Peers’ election was that many of them chose at that time to retire and not to stand in the election. There are those who believe that if we had a system of compulsory retirement through election which may be set at about 10 per cent or 15 per cent, quite a lot of Peers would be prepared to take that opportunity. I do not know, but perhaps that is something my noble friend could explore.
My noble friend Lord Kirkwood and the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, asked, in slightly different ways: why would anyone want to leave this House? The noble Lord, Lord Graham, said that he did not want to leave until he absolutely had to and had no choice in the matter, because by that time he would be dead—which would be a great sadness to us all, because I have known him for a great deal of time and I always enjoy what he says.
We have given my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral a problem and an opportunity. The problem is that there is not a great deal of clarity in what has come out of this afternoon. The opportunity is that everyone wishes for something to be done and for him to come up with a proposal. I am extremely grateful to him and his committee for the way that they have approached the subject with tremendous skill and sensitivity. We are always being urged to seek a consensus. He has certainly done so, I wish him well in his endeavours and I hope that he will be able to produce a final report relatively shortly.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I yield to no one in my affection for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton—apart from Lady Falconer of Thoroton, I expect—but today he has disappointed me in his little piece of parliamentary mischief-making when most of us had expected to be here to discuss the important Second Reading of the Bill. However, late on Thursday, he raised a question not raised by the 650 Members of the other place affected by the Bill—namely, that it be referred to the Examiners on the grounds of hybridity.
The noble and learned Lord built up an unparalleled reputation in the long years of the previous Government: whenever there was a dud case to be put or a hopeless position to be defended, the cry went up from his old flatmate, then in No. 10, “Send for Charlie”. Whatever it was, up he popped at this Dispatch Box to put the case. His charms unfurled, his words dripped honey, but somehow we all knew that he knew what we knew—that the case he was arguing was built on straw. Your Lordships were never fooled then and will not be fooled today.
The noble and learned Lord comes armed with a 28-page legal opinion from the chambers founded by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, and written by Mr James Goudie QC, no less—a close associate of the Labour Party, I understand. After 28 pages, it concludes that it is a fine line but it is arguable that the Bill may be hybrid.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Lord has declared an impossible standard as far as James Goudie is concerned. He is a distinguished QC and I invite the noble Lord to withdraw what he said about him.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if it is not distinguished to be a close associate of the Labour Party, I withdraw it. None of my other comments was meant to remark on Mr James Goudie’s professional capacity. I said that he was a QC; I stand by that and the House knows what that means.
On the question of whether it is arguable—
Lord Goldsmith
I declare an interest as a QC. Is the noble Lord, for whom I have great respect, suggesting that the opinion of Mr James Goudie QC, which we have seen, does not represent his genuine and honest opinion on the matter? If he is not suggesting that, then the remarks he has just made, with respect, are ill-timed and ill-placed.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, of course I do not say that; nor do I think my remarks were ill-timed or misjudged. I was going to precisely make the case that Mr Goudie QC said that it was arguable that the Bill may be hybrid. Did anyone in the House hear a lawyer say that a case like this was not arguable? And when did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, fight shy of arguing it?
As is well known and understood, I am not a Silk like the noble and learned Lord or his friend Mr Goudie, but I have spent enough time in the countryside to know a sow’s ear when I see it—and I see it in this Motion. On what do I rest my case? Your Lordships have the benefit of the crisp opinion of the Clerks of your Lordships’ House, who have confirmed the view—a view they had taken even before the Bill was introduced—that this Bill is not prima facie hybrid. Indeed, in the opinion of the Clerk of Public and Private Bills, the Bill, “cannot be hybrid”. Had it been, neither the Clerks of this House nor of the other place, having examined it for that specific purpose, would have let it pass. That letter is in the Library.
Furthermore, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern wrote in a letter copied to me, the Leader of the Opposition and the Convenor of the Crossbench Peers:
“A hybrid Bill is a public Bill which affects a particular private interest in a manner different from the private interests of other persons or bodies of the same category”.
On that, I am sure that we all agree. He went on to write this short line:
“I can see no ground on which it could be argued that this is a hybrid Bill”.
So what are the facts of the matter? No one’s right to vote is affected. No one’s right to vote is withdrawn. No one’s right to representation is diminished. All that the Bill seeks to do is to ensure that constituency sizes are more equal and that each voter’s voice is more equal. Underneath all the legal argumentation, what shines out from the noble and learned Lord is that equalising constituency sizes upsets the Labour Party. We all know that Labour has long benefited from this system. No one talked about hybridity then and we all know why, don’t we? It seems that the Labour Party is upset that those unique communities in the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland are protected under this Bill.
Lord Tyler
Can my noble friend confirm that, whenever any legislation has referred to the Orkney and Shetland constituency, although that constituency has never been considered to be part of the United Kingdom as a conventional constituency, the legislation has never been treated as hybrid?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, not only is my noble friend, like my noble friend Lord Rennard, right, but this relates to a Bill on which the former Lord Chancellor advised. The Scotland Act 1998—legislation of a Labour Government—made provision for Orkney and Shetland each to be a separate constituency in the Scottish Parliament and not to be part of any future Boundary Commission review. The noble and learned Lord raised no question of hybridity then. In addition, the same legislation—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Perhaps the noble Lord could move his guns towards the argument. The reason for that is that the Scotland Bill dealt with the whole of Scotland. This Bill excludes two bits from it. Answer that, please.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there was no private interest affected in 1998 and there is no private interest affected today. If the noble and learned Lord really wants to remove the protection that we have put into the Bill, let him make Labour’s case in Stornoway, Lerwick and Kirkwall, but he should not waste the time of this House with these tactics.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
We make it clear that we support those two being exceptions. The question is whether other people should be entitled to argue for being exceptions as well. That is the point that the noble Lord needs to deal with.
Lord Strathclyde
Not at all, my Lords. I have brought two qualitative arguments—those of the Clerks of the House of Lords and those of my noble and learned friend the former Lord Chancellor, who have said that there is absolutely no question to answer.
Why has this popped up now? No one raised hybridity in the other place—the place affected by the Bill. No one challenged the legal drafting of the Bill in the other place—the place affected by the Bill. The Motion is a political tactic designed to delay a Bill concerning elections to the House of Commons, which the Commons, after long and careful examination on the Floor of their House, have agreed.
Frankly, the Labour Party in this House has to decide what sort of Opposition it wants to be. Does it want to engage with the great issues that led to its ejection from power and the loss of 100 seats in the other place, or does it want to use the kinds of procedural ploys, wheezes and games that we see today? Does it want to engage in the proper work of this House in scrutinising and revising legislation line by line, or does it want to manufacture time-wasting debates?
More than 50 speakers are waiting to speak on the Second Reading. There is an important issue here. We saw it last week in the vote on the referral of the Public Bodies Bill and we see it today. This House can debate procedure or it can debate substance. There is a great liberty in our procedures and we all want that to be preserved, but I hope that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and the noble and learned Lord do not intend to try to take this House the way of the other place, where hours are spent debating procedure and many clauses of Bills are never discussed.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, in respect of the Second Reading of the Public Bodies Bill, the House as a whole was debating a matter of extremely important constitutional relevance. That is why my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath put down the Motion that he did. As with today, it was nothing to do with wasting this House’s time; we were trying to ensure that we acted properly in holding the Government to account.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, years have gone by when we have not discussed these issues, either of hybridity or special Select Committees. It seems extraordinary that within six months of the Labour Party going into opposition we have had to debate them on three separate occasions. I do not think that anyone in this place outside a few zealots in Labour’s back room wants to see the kind of opposition and government politics that we have seen develop over the course of the past few months.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
I wonder whether the Leader of the House has made an assessment of how long the Examiners would take. Is it weeks or months or days?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that would be up to the Examiners, but, based on the precedent set earlier this summer, it would be between a week and 10 days. Everybody knows that this Bill is on a tight timetable, which is precisely why we are discussing this Motion today. Six years ago, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, submitted from the Cross Benches that the Constitutional Reform Bill, a Bill profoundly affecting this House, which ended centuries of this House’s judicial role, be referred to a Select Committee. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, condemned that as political mischief-making and strongly urged the House to resist it. Now on a Bill that has nothing to do with this House at all and has been approved by another place—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The noble Lord is absolutely right, but he will also know that once the Bill was referred to a Select Committee by the noble and learned Lord’s Motion it was made so much better, and I publicly said that. I recanted, but what has happened to him? He supported that Motion.
Lord Strathclyde
But on that occasion, the noble and learned Lord did not have the support of the Clerks or my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The point is that today he comes forward as the political mischief-maker in chief, hoping to use the strength of his party’s vote as the biggest party in this House to delay your Lordships’ consideration of this important Bill.
The Clerks of this House are clear that this Bill is not prima facie hybrid and “cannot be hybrid”. I submit that if the noble and learned Lord and his friends do not have the good sense to stop this charade, withdraw this Motion and let us all get on with the Bill, your Lordships should put a stop to this outbreak of party-political mischief-making with our procedures and do so decisively.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
Again, I point out to the House that yes, we are proud to be the biggest party at this moment in this House, but the coalition Benches have a greater majority than we have as a single party. I just wanted the House to be aware of that.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the question before us is whether there is a case for the Bill to be hybrid and whether it affects a particular private interest in a manner different—
Lord Strathclyde
Private or local; I am very happy with that as well. It is whether it affects it in a manner different from the private interest of other persons or bodies of the same category. In the opinion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and many others the right to vote is a public right and the manner and place in which it may be exercised are not private interests. It is on that basis that I agree with my noble and learned friend and with the Clerks of the House of Lords that there are no grounds on which it could be argued that this is a Private Bill.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, I listened to the Leader of the House many times when he was Leader of the Opposition and was often almost seduced by his oratory. However, that was not the case on this occasion and I do not think that it was a speech that he will be entirely thrilled about, because it was based almost entirely on suggesting that my noble and learned friend’s argument was spurious, shallow, pointless and simply and avowedly party-political. The noble Lord is nodding, so he is obviously confirming that. I want to comment initially on two points that he made, which are important considerations for the rest of us during this debate.
The noble Lord said that we know “that this Bill is on a tight timetable”. In other words, it has been guillotined quite severely in the Commons; that; of course, is what he hopes to be able to achieve in the Lords. I simply ask him: who is responsible for this Bill being on a tight timetable? The Government have made that decision in the full light of all the information. It is also, presumably, the reason why the Government say that it was not even possible to have pre-legislative scrutiny on this huge constitutional Bill—one which I think the party leader of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has described as being part of the most important reforms since 1832, with characteristic understatement. Your Lordships need not worry; I am coming to hybridity. I am sure that the noble Lord will deal with that as seriously as I am dealing with the comments that he has been making.
The noble Lord enunciated what I thought a unique constitutional principle—at least as far as I have heard in this House; it was an astonishing one to come from the Leader of the House—in which it is not this House’s business to consider issues which have not been voted on or considered in the other place. He has commented on it enough times to make me realise that this means that large swathes of business under this coalition Government will not be possible for us to discuss, because he knows perfectly well that in the other place large sections of business are frequently not discussed and not voted upon. That is due to timetabling, which obviously took place under the previous Government as it does under this one. But please let us not pretend that he is making a serious constitutional argument that we must not consider it ourselves because it has not been considered by the other place.
I come to a severely practical point on the issue of hybridity, which was partly touched upon in an earlier exchange. No one could seriously argue that this particular clause of this particular schedule did not have characteristics of hybridity: “Preserved constituencies” is all it says. It then lists two constituencies with no explanation whatsoever of why they are preserved. I put this as a procedural point to the Leader of the House; I would have thought that there is clearly no reason on earth why any other constituency that wants to be added to the preserved list should not be able to make out a case for doing so. There are 648 parliamentary constituencies not covered in the preserved list. I shall certainly be trying to persuade this House that Telford is a constituency that should not be interfered with. It is a fast-growing town in the West Midlands, whose population changes much more rapidly than other constituencies. I put only that point to him. I will not develop the argument now—it would not be to the specific point of hybridity—other than to point out that these amendments, should they be tabled, could not possibly be grouped because the nature of the hybridity means that each case is individual and is unrelated to all the other constituencies. That is the basis on which these two constituencies are put down.
If, for the sake of argument, many amendments were tabled making the case for individual constituencies, it could not then be sustained, even if you concede that this clause is hybrid, that it was only a small part of the Bill, as some of the proponents of this not being a hybrid Bill are advancing. If, during the passage of the Bill through this House, other constituencies were added to the “exempt” clause, it would become a much bigger part of the Bill. I put it to the noble Lord the Leader of the House that these are serious questions; the case is certainly serious so far as I am advancing it. There is hardly a constituency in Britain that could not put its case on the basis of its boundaries, its communities and their relationship of the communities to each other.
In passing, we have to acknowledge that all local contribution to this by way of public inquiry, which has always been the case in the past, is being bypassed too; as the noble Lord the Leader of the House has told us, the Bill is under a very tight schedule. I acknowledge that there are different opinions on this, but it is not worthy simply to use the characteristics of normal parliamentary banter, which I enjoy as much as anyone else, in responding to a very serious Motion that my noble and learned friend has tabled which, on the noble Lord’s own admission, will delay the Bill, if that is what it does, by only a week and a half. On a matter of such constitutional importance—the Government’s words, not mine, although on this occasion I agree with them—should we really not be able to delay the Bill by that time in order to establish where there is clear and serious doubt, although the noble Lord will no doubt be able to persuade enough people to his point of view? We should at least have the opportunity of dealing with that question in the proper way by referring it in the way that my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer is suggesting.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, having had the privilege of being in this House for 13 years, I say that this debate is one in which this House, most unusually, should not feel one jot of pride. I have listened with great care to what has been said. I have to say to the Leader, who knows the affection in which I hold him, that this is not his finest hour. I say that because we are faced with a subject of some importance. I have listened to the laughter and watched Members with a deal of disappointment because this subject is not very funny. It is serious, it is important, and it needs and deserves your Lordships’ serious consideration.
I wish to take particular issue with the point raised by the Leader, who made reference to our debate last week on the Public Bodies Bill. That was not a party political debate. The noble Lord will remember that it was, in many ways, led by the former Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and every former law officer who spoke did so with one voice.
Let us be frank. This is a real issue that we are asking the House to consider, and it is easy to dismiss what lawyers say as “mere technicality” and say that people are trying to take advantage of points for political reasons. However, there is a reason why they say, “Shoot the lawyers first”; it is because they are the ones who tend to tell people what they do not want to hear. But if not them, who? And if not now, when should we have this debate on hybridity?
The House knows that hybridity can be raised at any stage in the other place and here. This House has rightly received a great deal of praise for the sobriety and the reasoned way in which we conduct ourselves; listening courteously to each other and responding in a way that is right. Is there a real issue of hybridity here? Yes, there is. What is hybridity? In essence, it is about fairness. Should different groups and different individuals be treated differently? That is what hybridity does. We are asking for the House to consider whether the low threshold that everyone has spoken about has been crossed.
When we talk about our constitution, speed may not work to our long-term advantage. Therefore, it is important for us to think soberly. Every Bill that we have spoken of in relation to constitutional importance has had a White Paper, and often a Green Paper, a draft Bill and consideration. This Bill comes to us fresh, new, young and unseasoned, without an opportunity for mature and quiet contemplation. We do have an opportunity to do that. It is a simple question: does the House think that this matter should be delayed by a few days to enable the Examiners to decide the matter one way or the other?
Lord Strathclyde
The noble and learned Baroness is the shadow Attorney-General. She cannot say that this is a fresh, new Bill. Her party and her shadow Cabinet have been studying it since June. Why have they taken until now to raise what she calls extremely important issues?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, the reason I described the Bill as fresh and new is that with every other constitutional Bill that we have had—the noble Lord knows this—we have had the advantage of a White Paper. We have talked about draft Bills. Pre-legislative scrutiny is something that many noble Lords who sit opposite have spoken about. I do not want to go on any further—the short issue for us is this—
Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that it is our turn. I wonder whether the Front Benches consider that we have now heard as much as we are likely to take in that is relevant and that we should now divide.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not know whether many of the questions were put to me or to the noble and learned Lord, but I shall be extremely brief. A number of issues have been raised this afternoon. They are important issues that will be raised and dealt with, quite rightly, in Committee—in particular, the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, concerning Telford—but they have nothing to do with the question of hybridity. I make two very brief points. First, the Bill is not hybrid and, secondly, the motivation behind the Labour Party’s anger is one of delay on this all-important coalition Bill.
Lord Barnett
Will the noble Lord give way for a moment? As I understand it, it is only a matter of timing. The Bill is important and the timing is tight. He told us that it would take 10 days if it went to an independent examiner. How long does he think it would take if 400 constituency amendments were tabled in Committee?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if the Examiners decided that the Bill was not hybrid, that still could not stop 400 constituency amendments being tabled.
G20
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, perhaps this would be a convenient moment to repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister earlier today. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on my visit to China and the G20 summit in Korea. First, I am sure that the whole House would want to join with me in welcoming the liberation, at last, of Aung San Suu Kyi. Her tenacity and courage in the face of injustice has been truly inspiring. I spoke to her this morning to pass on the congratulations of everyone in this country on her release and on her remarkable stand on democracy and human rights. We must now work to ensure that her release is followed by freedom for more than 2,000 other political prisoners and that this becomes the first step towards the people in Burma being able to choose the person they want to run their country.
In China and Korea, my main focus was on jobs and growth. In China, I led one of the biggest and most high-powered British delegations ever. This helped to win new business for Britain worth billions of pounds, involving businesses all over the UK and cities across China. We strengthened our ties on trade, education and culture, all the while raising our concerns with China on issues like human rights where we have differences of view.
In Seoul, Britain had four priorities: first, to continue to win recognition for the importance of fiscal consolidation, with those countries with the greatest deficits taking the fastest action; secondly, to get a clear commitment from all countries to fight protectionism and take the steps necessary to boost global trade; thirdly, to help move development issues up the G20 agenda; and, fourthly, to address the global imbalances which were at the root of the global financial crisis and which still hold back growth in the world economy. We made important progress on all four.
Let me take each in turn. First, on fiscal consolidation, it is now perfectly clear what the consequences are if you ignore the dangers of deficits. You see markets questioning your economy, interest rates rising, confidence falling and the economy back in the danger zone. That is where Britain was only a few months ago, but because of the measures we have taken that is no longer the case. Countries with larger deficits need to act on them and to do so now. This is absolutely vital for the confidence and stability we need for businesses to invest once again.
That was exactly the view of the G20. In Seoul, we agreed that,
‘the failure to implement consolidation … would undermine confidence and growth’,
and we agreed to,
‘formulate and implement clear, credible, ambitious and growth-friendly fiscal consolidation plans’.
There can be no clearer statement of our collective intent than this. Big deficits are dangerous. We simply have to deal with them.
Secondly, on trade, as the world comes out of recession with some countries moving more slowly and others, including the new emerging powers, forging ahead, there are inevitable pressures in some quarters for protectionism. The G20 has been a vital forum in fighting to keep markets open. Increasing trade is the biggest boost and the biggest stimulus we could give to the world economy. It does not cost any money. It is not a zero-sum game. It creates wealth and jobs. So, against a background of rising protectionist pressures, the G20 reaffirmed its determination to learn the lessons of the past and avoid the trade barriers and beggar-my-neighbour policies that wrecked the economy in the 1930s. It refreshed its commitment,
‘to keeping markets open and liberalizing trade and investment as a means to promote economic progress for all’,
and it pledged to,
‘roll back any new protectionist measures that may have arisen’.
On the Doha round let me say this: it is incredibly frustrating that this trade round is almost 10 years old and that world leaders say again and again that it is going to be completed. Yet the situation still remains stalled. The longer it has gone on, the more difficult it has got, because the world economy has changed so fast that the deal has become outdated. Both developed and developing countries are looking for more from the round.
I do not want to raise hopes artificially but I do think that some real progress has been made. Vitally, the language of the communiqué says:
‘2011 is a critical window of opportunity’;
that our engagement to secure a deal,
‘must intensify and expand … to complete the end game’,
of the negotiations; and that, as I proposed at the Toronto summit, we have to make the deal bigger by having a wide ‘across the board’ negotiation. What changed at this summit was that the US said that if a good and fair deal comes forward, it will take it to Congress. All of us instructed our trade negotiators to put more on the table so a deal can be done. I am determined that Britain should do everything it can to push this forwards. That is why I have asked Leon Brittan to continue helping to co-ordinate our trade policies, an effort in which he will be joined by our new Trade Minister, Stephen Green, from January.
Thirdly, on development, it is right that the G20 is now playing a bigger role on this issue. As well as the richest nations, the new emerging powers have a great role to play in helping some of the poorest. There is a real recognition about the importance of trade, infrastructure and finance in the Seoul agreement, and I also raised the importance of continuing our aid programmes. Britain is keeping its promises on aid, and I pressed others to do the same.
On the trade agenda, together with South Africa, Ethiopia and Malawi, who were there to represent Africa, Britain mobilised the G20 behind,
‘the vision of a free trade area’,
for Africa. This was a fundamental pillar of a new approach to supporting economic growth and development in Africa set out in the Seoul consensus. Only 10 per cent of Africa’s trade is within the continent of Africa, so knocking down the trade walls between African countries will help to unleash economic growth. It is not just that we want Africa to be less dependent on aid; we want Africa to be a source of growth and new jobs for the world, including for Britain.
Fourthly, uneven growth and widening imbalances are fuelling the temptation to diverge from global solutions into unco-ordinated actions and, according to the IMF, those balances are forecast to get worse, not better. Alongside protectionist pressures, we have seen the signs of so-called ‘currency wars’. The G20 agreed the Seoul action plan. This includes agreeing to move,
‘towards more market determined exchange rate systems’,
and to refrain from the ‘competitive devaluation of currencies’. But the issue of trade imbalances goes beyond currencies. Just as countries with big budget deficits must cut public spending, which is right for them and right for the world economy, so countries with big trade deficits need to save more, consume less and export more. If that is not accompanied by higher consumption by surplus countries, world growth will be lower and protectionist pressures higher, and we will repeat the mistakes of the past. It is as simple as that.
By acting together we can maximise world growth and cut world unemployment. This is not some obscure economic issue; it is about jobs. Trade imbalances have led to an imbalance of funds: a wall of money in the east and a wall of debt in the West. This was part of the problem that helped pump up some of the bubbles which led to the crash that affected us all. As part of the Seoul action plan, we agreed that we would,
‘pursue the full range of policies to reduce excessive external imbalances and maintain current account imbalances at sustainable levels’.
We also agreed that this should include assessing imbalances,
‘against indicative guidelines to be agreed by our finance Ministers and central bank governors’.
The issue of imbalances is never going to be solved overnight, but the key thing is this: it is being discussed in a proper, multilateral way, with some progress being made.
The summit also delivered important progress on deepening co-operation on financial regulation and the reform of global institutions. We agreed the core elements of a new financial regulatory framework, including bank capital and liquidity standards, and more effective oversight and supervision of globally important institutions. The last Basel accord on capital ratios, Basel II, took nine years. With the G20 behind it, Basel III has been done in 18 months.
Reform of the IMF to make it more representative of the global economy has been discussed for years. The G20 has finally got the deal done. On climate change, President Calderon briefed the G20 on the plans for Cancun, and we received a report from the UN Secretary-General’s High-level Advisory Group on Climate Change Financing. We reaffirmed our resolute commitment to fight climate change and agreed that we would,
‘spare no effort to reach a balanced and successful outcome in Cancun’.
This summit delivered important progress in managing the tensions that are present in the global economy. In my visits to China and the G20 summit we protected and promoted our national interests. We have taken vital steps towards the strong, balanced and sustainable global growth we need. We secured recognition for acting on the deficit, support for more action on trade and development, and agreement on working to rectify the imbalances that threaten global economic stability. Ultimately, this will win more jobs and growth for Britain. I commend the Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, not surprisingly, I cannot agree with everything that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition said, but I certainly welcome her remarks about Aung San Suu Kyi and about development at the summit, which is to the advantage of us all, including those countries that are most affected.
I particularly cannot agree that the Prime Minister showed no leadership. Of course he showed leadership. On many of the achievements, which were common to many of those who attended the summit, we should all be extremely glad that they were agreed. There is a pledge to continue co-ordinated efforts to generate strong, sustainable and balanced growth, with an action plan setting out the policy actions that are needed to move closer to this objective. There are comprehensive quota and governance reforms to the IMF, instruments to strengthen global financial safety nets and so on. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister said that the meeting would not be an heroic summit, and it was not. The summit was meeting not against a background of crisis but against the background that the world needs to unite over growth, which is what I believe it did.
The noble Baroness asked about climate change. The summit reaffirmed the commitment to negotiations under the UNFCCC and to a successful and balanced result in Cancun. We very much welcome the work of the UN Secretary-General’s High-level Advisory Group on Climate Change Financing, whose report was published at the beginning of November. We agree that its recommendations should now be considered by Finance Ministers. In the summit, we also recognised the ongoing importance of green recovery and green growth. Leaders committed themselves to stimulating investment in clean energy technology, to energy and resource efficiency and to developing long-term energy strands.
Of course the key to all this is growth. The noble Baroness and I will, I suspect, have to agree to disagree about the medicine that this economy has had to take and the reasons for taking it. She prayed in aid the Office for Budget Responsibility, yet it says that unemployment in this country will fall next year and every year after that and that employment will increase by around 1.4 million over the next five years. The OBR forecasts that public sector employment will fall, as it would have done under the previous Government, but by less than if we had not frozen pay and stopped the jobs tax. We will strengthen the economy by stimulating enterprise and jobs, by taking 880,000 people out of tax altogether, by having a £1 billion regional growth fund and the green investment bank, by cutting corporation tax and the small profits rate, by reducing new businesses’ national insurance in certain areas and by cutting red tape. We believe that this is the right policy to provide for the long-term growth, prosperity and employment prospects that this country needs.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, we very much welcome the Prime Minister’s statement about the release of Aung San Suu Kyi, the lone figure who suffered so much at the hands of the military rulers in Burma. We are thankful for her release, but we must ensure that the ASEAN countries do not recognise the recent elections in that country, which were a sham. Until such time as democracy and human rights prevail in Burma, we should take a tough stand against that political regime.
I have two questions for the Minister. First, before the visit to Korea, the Prime Minister visited China. On matters of human rights, different opinions are being expressed, but—although this was very much a trade visit—was the question of the award of the Nobel Peace Prize to a person now languishing in prison discussed, and what was the outcome of that particular discussion? Secondly, China is constantly undervaluing its currency while competing so heavily with the rest of the world. Is there any solution to that matter to ensure that the rest of the world does not suffer because of how China behaves with its currency?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for what he has just said. Of course, I echo his words on Suu Kyi and democracy. Aung San Suu Kyi’s detention has always been arbitrary and outrageous, with its sole purpose being to exclude her from political life. Now that the military leadership has released her, we urge it to continue to release other political prisoners immediately and unconditionally.
As to the China summit, my noble friend is right in saying that this was a dual visit—first, to China on a trade mission and then to the G20. Of course, the issues of human rights and trade are entwined. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister said that he was committed to engaging with China on human rights and that he was convinced that the free circulation of ideas, the development of independent civil society and the objective application of the rule of law are critical to China’s long-term prosperity and social stability, which is equally vital to the global economy and therefore to the United Kingdom’s interests. As for a discussion of the Nobel Peace Prize winner Liu Xiaobo, such issues are raised in the sense that no subjects between our countries are off limits as part of the mutual understanding and respect that exists between our respective leaders.
Lord Boateng
My Lords, the Prime Minister and his team are to be congratulated on their work in Seoul with President Zuma of South Africa on promoting the initiative on intra-African trade, but will Her Majesty's Government continue to press the case for a rethink of the economic partnership agreements currently being promoted by the European Union in Africa, whose contents militate against further integration among the regional economic groups in Africa and in many ways make that integration more difficult? Will Her Majesty's Government also raise with the European Trade Commissioner the issue of the negotiation currently taking place with a number of African countries that seeks to persuade those countries to cease to protect indigenous industries such as the leather industry? Without that protection for that industry and a number of growing industries in Africa, there is no way that indigenous African producers will be able to develop their industries as we have developed ours. I offer congratulations on the initiative, but will the noble Lord accept that there is yet more to be done if Africa is to fulfil its potential?
Lord Strathclyde
The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, brings to our debates a very particular interest and expertise, which are very greatly valued by this House. I know that we will hear a great deal more from him on this subject. He is right to say that a great deal more needs to be done; he is equally right that we have taken another step forward in the process of providing for the long-term prosperity of the continent of Africa. Our view, which is well known and is a collective view across the parties, is that trade is the greatest wealth creator ever known and it is right that we should press hard to secure a strong, comprehensive and balanced trade pillar within the development working group’s multi-year action plan, including action on duty-free, quota-free access. For Africa’s small economies to achieve faster and sustained growth, they need to be able to trade better with each other and with global markets. African political leaders are increasingly recognising the importance of regional integration as a key objective of the African Union, with a view to the eventual creation of an African economic community. I agree with the noble Lord that there is still a great deal more to be done, but things are considerably better than where we were 10 or 20 years ago.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, it is very good to know that the Prime Minister raised appropriately the question of human rights on his visit to China, but could the noble Lord the Leader of the House give us some indication of what response the Prime Minister received?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot say what the answer was because a wide range of issues was covered in the discussion between my right honourable friend and the leadership in China, but that included an in-depth discussion on human rights. As I said earlier, no subjects were off limits. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said at the time of the announcement of the Nobel Peace Prize that the decision to award the prize to Liu Xiaobo,
“shines a spotlight on the situation of human rights defenders worldwide”.—[Official Report, 20/10/10, Commons, col. 727W.]
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, can I ask the noble Lord two questions? In the first place, I applaud the Prime Minister for taking a large delegation to China and for his dealing with the wider aspects of our relationship with China. After all, China is an emerging superpower and we should look after it. In regard to trade with China, and indeed with the rest of the world, our manufacturing industry has fallen as a proportion of GDP, from 32 per cent in 1973 to 10 per cent in 2008. Are the Government going to do anything to resuscitate and revive our manufacturing industry, especially in the north-west and north-east of this country?
My second question is about the discussions at Seoul on trade, particularly with emerging countries. Is the noble Lord aware that the greatest barrier to trade with those countries is the CAP? Will the Government do something about that? Unless it is reformed, people in Africa will find it particularly difficult to export their goods to Europe.
Lord Strathclyde
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, raises two good questions. On the question of China and trade, he is right that the main purpose behind the visit was to demonstrate the degree of commitment that exists not only on a Government-to-Government basis but on a business-to-business basis, which is why so many people from business were pleased to join the Prime Minister as well as a substantial number of Ministers. That has shown our national commitment to developing our relationship with China, to pursuing our commercial interests and to co-operating more closely on global issues, as well as to raising the role of human rights in China’s development, in which this country has a vital interest.
The visit added momentum to our trade and investment relationship with China, with the agreement of a new trade target of $100 billion by 2015. The visit itself delivered over 40 agreements across the whole range of the bilateral relationship, from trade to low-carbon growth and cultural and education initiatives. The largest contract was Rolls-Royce’s contract of $1.2 billion, but others included an agreement on China’s first securities joint venture with the Royal Bank of Scotland, the geographical identification and registration of Scotch whisky and an education agreement to train 1,000 new teachers of Mandarin. All those were substantial achievements, but they are just building blocks in developing the relationship.
The noble Lord made a second point about trade with emerging countries and the effect of the CAP. I am not surprised that he should raise that question, which goes to the heart of the agreement that we are seeking on the completion of the Doha trade round. One of the best pieces of news to come out of the summit was that there was an international agreement that all countries should take the final step towards reaching agreement on Doha, and that may well include the European Union taking a fresh look at the role of the CAP.
Lord Bates
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that our fiscal deficit is actually the largest in the G20 and that the fact that the G20 is endorsing the action now taking place to tackle that deficit is very welcome? Does he also agree that the fact that we are reducing the corporation tax level to the most competitive level within the G20 is another reason why we ought to be encouraged about the direction going forward? Following the huge success of the trade missions to China and India, what plans do the Government have to send similar high-profile trade missions to Brazil and Russia?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend’s last question is a good one, which I wish I had thought of myself when I was discussing such matters with those who know the answers. It is right that we should set up visits to other countries. I do not know where next in the world the Prime Minister’s eye will fall upon, but I am sure that he will be as gratefully received as he has been in China and India.
My noble friend is also right about the case that we have made for reducing the deficit—consolidation, as it was called at the G20—and that there was universal agreement that this was entirely the right direction to take. Equally, the reduction of corporation tax will make us more internationally competitive, will help our businesses to export and will also increase jobs in the United Kingdom.
Lord Prescott
My Lords, given that the Statement today was about the Prime Minister’s visit to China as well as to the G20, it is a little disappointing that it says so little about climate change. I welcome the Statement where it says that the Government’s intention is to fight climate change and that they will,
“spare no effort to reach a balanced and successful outcome in Cancun”.
That is precisely what was said at the Copenhagen summit, which failed largely because people attempted to enforce a legal agreement. That is the difficulty that we face at the moment. Having visited China and Japan in the past two weeks, I can tell the Minister that a legal agreement does not have a chance of being agreed at Cancun. Will the Government perhaps consider changing their policy and supporting the voluntary system embodied in the Copenhagen accord, under which nations commit themselves to cutting greenhouse gases and providing action plans? That would mean that we were likely to get some agreement at Cancun—perhaps a small step for mankind—whereas failure would be a disaster.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord’s words and his reporting back of his own visit to China. He is right that there are elements of the protocols on climate change on which we have to go a great deal further. As the premier economic forum, the G20 is right in recognising the importance of low-carbon growth in preventing climate change and creating a sustainable global economy and in sending positive signals ahead of Cancun, but the meeting at Cancun is the key forum for negotiation on climate change. None of us should have false hopes about what is going to happen at Cancun. Immensely difficult decisions need to be taken. It is only a few weeks away now, and we shall have to wait for the results of that to see whether we have succeeded in our objectives.
Lord Myners
I welcome many of the Prime Minister’s comments, in particular those about protectionism and rolling back those areas where protectionist measures have already been taken. I take great encouragement from the Prime Minister’s positive statements about the Doha round and the need to address imbalances. On both sides of the House we accept the need for growth in global economic activity, although on this side we believe that the policies the Government are currently pursuing are alien to good growth outcomes.
However, the Prime Minister overstates the achievement in the banking industry. I express my grave concern at the lack of real progress. The Prime Minister referred to Basel III being completed within 18 months. With all respect to the Minister, nothing has been achieved under Basel III, which is not due to be implemented until 2018 and, in some respects, 2023. Not a single bank has had to increase its capital as a result of Basel III. We have seen no material progress on the identification and agreement of process for globally systemically important financial institutions. We have seen no progress on the agreement of a net stable funding ratio. These are all critical to creating a more stable banking system. Is the noble Lord pleased with the progress that has been made under Basel III? If so, could he identify the tangible things that have happened as a result of it?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I very much welcome the early remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Myners. He was agreeing with me so, naturally, I agree with him. The right approach is about growth, getting the deficit under control, international trade and fighting the battle against protectionism—a path other countries would like us to head down. The noble Lord can easily make the case that it is still too early to decide whether Basel III has been a success. It is true that there is a long transition period between 2013 and 2019, when it needs to be put in place.
Having said that, a significant strengthening of capital and liquidity requirements and a binding constraint on leverage are essential to strengthening financial stability. Therefore, we welcome the G20’s endorsement of the Basel reforms to global capital and liquidity standards. Full, consistent and non-discriminatory implementation of these new international standards is now crucial to minimise the risks of regulatory arbitrage and the fragmentation of international financial markets. The UK, as the noble Lord well knows, has consistently argued for strengthened international financial regulation to address the failings that were laid bare by the crisis. The G20 has agreed major reforms to international financial regulations and we aim to move these forward. The key to this is to maintain the momentum that has come from Basel and the G20.
Lord Foster of Bishop Auckland
It is impossible at the moment to persuade China to be more flexible over its currency. What is the Prime Minister doing to develop a powerful consensus that surplus countries have a responsibility equal to that of deficit countries in dealing with global crises?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to say that one of the key issues has been the global imbalances. Part of what was discussed at the G20, and much of what was agreed on, was a protocol to reduce these global imbalances. The Prime Minister, in a speech at Peking University, said:
“We need a more balanced pattern of global demand and supply, a more balanced pattern of global saving and investment … We all share an interest and a responsibility to co-operate to secure strong and balanced global growth … just as China played a leading role at the G20 in helping to avert a global depression so it can lead now”.
That was the clearest signal to policy-makers in China that they need to play a full part in sorting out global imbalances. The recognition that we need to move towards more market-determined exchange rate systems was a vital ingredient of that and was agreed by all parties in the G20. I contend that that is a positive step forward.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, it is considerably later than we had intended to start the main business of the day, but I now beg to move that the Bill be read a second time. This Bill is a core part of the coalition Government’s programme. It is a simple measure that provides for three things: a referendum on the voting system for the other place; a modest reduction in the number of MPs; and fairer, more equal constituencies. It would not have existed in its present form without the creation of the coalition. Speaking for my party as well as for the Government, I say clearly that we are completely committed to honour the coalition agreement. That is why, as Leader of this House, I open for the Government on the Bill.
Of course, I would have liked 20 more Conservative seats at the general election, but that was not the people’s choice. They did not deliver a majority for a single-party Government. They asked us to work together —and that, I believe, is our duty.
This Government have started on the giant task of restoring this country from the economic, diplomatic and social wreckage of the past 13 years.
Lord Strathclyde
It would be madness to risk that coalition to stop the British people having a say in how they choose their Members of Parliament.
I know that many of my noble friends do not like or want the alternative vote system. Frankly, I am inclined to agree. As this Bill allows your Lordships to vote in the proposed referendum, I can let you into a secret: I will vote no.
Lord Strathclyde
I will have a vote in the referendum.
I can let your Lordships into another secret: my noble friend Lord McNally will vote yes. Some might think, as our votes will cancel each other out, we should just stay at home and have a quiet dinner together, but we will not, because both of us are agreed that the British people should have this choice, and we will each campaign for the answer we seek.
How odd it would be if this unelected House, which lately voted overwhelmingly against the very idea that your Lordships should be elected, should have the temerity to tell the elected House how to proceed on its own election or to deny its wish to give the people their say.
The Lords Constitution Committee has now published its report on the Bill. It states that there has not been enough consultation on it. Respectfully, I disagree. The proposals in this Bill apply entirely to the other place. It has been rigorously examined there over eight days on the Floor of the House and through 35 Divisions. It reflects the settled will of the elected House.
On the referendum, the Government have worked closely with the Electoral Commission and administrators, and the commission has declared itself broadly satisfied that sufficient progress has been made to enable the local returning and counting officers to run the polls well and that voters will be able to participate in them.
The provisions in the Bill are sound, and Members of this House should consider carefully the clear signal from the elected House before making major changes in it.
There has been speculation about the last possible date for Royal Assent to allow the referendum to happen on 5 May. I believe there is more than adequate time. It is certainly important that, commensurate withfull scrutiny in this House, we give participants and campaigners in the referendum as much time as possible to prepare for a full and informed campaign. We owe that to the electorate, but it is possible to do that and allow enough time to examine the Bill, which I hope will complete its passage as soon as possible in January 2011.
I do not want to make unnecessary political points, but I remind noble Lords opposite of a forgotten document: A Future Fair for All, the manifesto of the party opposite only this spring, written by their current leader. On page 62, it talks of, “A New Politics”. It continues:
“To ensure that every MP is supported by a majority of their constituents voting at each election, we will hold a referendum on introducing the Alternative Vote for elections to the House of Commons”.
That was what Mr Miliband thought then, so I take it that we will have full support from the party opposite for the part of the Bill that provides for what it itself promised at the general election.
There is a small quibble: the party opposite promised a referendum by October 2011. The Bill proposes it in May 2011—one year into this Parliament, but that is a far slower timetable than the six-month one used by the party opposite for the referendums on Scottish and Welsh devolution in 1997.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Is not there a big distinction, in that what the Opposition, then in government, were proposing was a pre-legislative referendum, not a post-legislative referendum, which is an important constitutional distinction?
Lord Strathclyde
Yes, my Lords, but on the whole I think it is better for people to know what it is they are voting on, which is what is envisaged in the Bill.
Lord Grocott
Further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I hate to have to admit it in public, but we lost the general election. Can the noble Lord point me to a constitutional principle which tells us that parties which lose the general election are thereby bound to put to the electorate ad infinitum the same proposals on which they lost?
Lord Strathclyde
There is none. I was just hoping that there might be a little consistency from the party opposite and that it would wish to support the coalition in giving the people their say on whether there should be an alternative vote system.
The reason to have the referendum on 5 May is that it will save money—about £30 million—to hold it on the same day as other votes. About 84 per cent of the UK electorate can go to the polls for local elections or elections to the devolved assemblies on 5 May. I do not see the purpose of dallying a few months, at a cost of £30 million, to get to the self-same place.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
On that particular point, is the Leader of the House not aware that because of the chaos in the Scottish elections in 2007, when many people lost the right to vote because of spoiled ballot papers, the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament have now legislated so that council elections, which were due to take place next May, will take place a year later, in 2012? Is it not absolutely daft then to add the referendum to the complex elections for both the constituencies and the list that will take place, when the Scottish Parliament has freed it, as it were, by getting rid of the council elections on that day?
Lord Strathclyde
I do recall the chaos, and the noble Lord is right to refer to it. I hope that a number of lessons were learnt as a result of that, but the referendum question is different from the issues raised in May 2007. It is a very simple yes/no question. I am sure that our respective countrymen in Scotland will be able to decide between the two.
I hope that we can agree with the other place on the question of the date and the other provisions in the Bill: that the size of that House should be reduced, and the unfairness resulting from imbalances in the size of parliamentary constituencies rectified.
Surely, under any electoral system, people’s votes should have as equal weight as possible. That is not the case for the people of Warrington South, which last December had just under 80,000 electors; their vote is worth a quarter less than the people of Preston, which had 60,000. This is not an anomaly: these differences are repeated up and down the country. As of last December, a vote in Arfon in Wales had twice the weight of a vote in Falkirk. This inequality is compounded by the drawn-out process by which boundaries are drawn. It took more than six years to complete the last review in England. The constituencies in place for the 2010 general election were based on data that were a decade old. That is not fair for electors. Other countries draw their boundaries far more quickly.
Then, we are all pledged to reduce the cost of politics.
Lord Martin of Springburn
We must be even-handed, my Lords. The noble Lord will know that, because of the Scotland Act, there was a reduction from 72 seats down to 60. It was Lady Cosgrove, the High Court judge, who looked after these matters. This matter was dealt with very efficiently and a report was put before Parliament in due course. So it is not always the case that it is a long drawn-out process.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that of course is right, which is why I pointed out the case in England. In Scotland there was a reaction to the Scotland Act and the reduction in the number of seats. It does not mean that it always has to take a long time, but in England it demonstrated that it did. Maybe in Scotland these things are, on the whole, managed rather better.
The new rules put in place by this Bill will require that every constituency is within 5 per cent either side of a single size. To ensure that constituencies remain equal and up to date, boundary reviews will take place on a five-yearly basis. The Bill will also set the size of the other place at 600 MPs. This is a modest reduction of around 8 per cent and will save the public an estimated £12 million a year.
Lord Snape
I am grateful to the noble Lord. In his opinion, which political party would benefit from these changes?
Lord Strathclyde
I cannot possibly predict what will happen at the next general election, but all taxpayers will benefit from a saving of £12 million each year.
Lord Maples
I am grateful to my noble friend. Does he agree that an electoral system which, at the general election in 2010, required the Conservative Party to get 40 per cent of the vote to get an overall majority but Labour to get only 34 per cent cannot possibly be considered fair?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point—but it is not the fundamental case that the Government are making in the Bill. This is about a general fairness across the country.
Lord Wills
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Before he moves off this point about the size of the reconstituted House of Commons, does he recall that at the election both the coalition partners were committed to reducing the House of Commons to below 600? Can he explain to this House what exactly changed their minds about that?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, in the same way as the figure of 650 is one that has developed over time and is basically an arbitrary one, so the figure of 600—I see that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, plucks a figure from the air. It was not quite like that. Six hundred strikes me as being a nice, round figure. But these are precisely the points that we will take up in Committee.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
If the motive, as the noble Lord says, is to save money, can he say how it is consistent with the constant churning out of new Peers by this coalition?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the number of new Peers since the general election is infinitesimally small compared with the number of new Peers introduced during the period of new Labour. Moreover, no one is suggesting that these new Peers will cost £12 million to house and look after in this House.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, can the Minister say how much could be saved by a downward adjustment of ministerial salaries by reducing the size of the Government?
Lord Strathclyde
Given that ministerial salaries have already had a 5 per cent cut since the general election, the answer to that is: not much more. The other place has considered all of these questions carefully.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
Does the noble Lord accept that this is a constitutional issue, not a financial issue; and that by reducing the number of MPs but not reducing the size of the Executive, the Government will weaken the Commons’ ability to hold the Executive to account?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I fully expect that this will be an issue that we shall discuss in detail when we get to the Committee stage. The Government have already expressed a desire to reduce the size of the Executive, but not in this Bill, not at this time, not at this stage.
My right honourable friend's proposals will result in constituencies of around 76,000 electors, and over a third of existing constituencies are within the approximate range that will result from this Bill. That, I believe, is a reasonable proposal.
We look back at how the Duke of Wellington wisely led this House to allow reform of the constituencies in another place, and we marvel at the fact that your Lordships originally resisted it. So I think that, in future generations, if people read our debates, they will marvel at any speech by noble Lords or any other ditchers or diehards who venture to suggest that the disparities in current constituencies should be preserved.
As is now well known since the debate earlier today, the Bill preserves two specific constituencies: the island groups of Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles. Both are dispersed island groups which cannot readily be combined with the mainland. In recognition of the fact that certain parts of the United Kingdom are very sparsely populated, the Bill caps the size of a constituency at just larger than the largest now—Ross, Skye and Lochaber.
The Bill also reforms the process for boundary reviews. As one leading academic has commented on the present system of local inquiries,
“it would be wrong to assume that the consultation process largely involves the general public having its say on the recommendations”.
It is important that consultation is effective, and that is why the Bill reforms the system. It triples the time that people and political parties have to make written representations from one month to three. Local people will be better able to make their points to the commissions, and the overall review process will be faster and more efficient.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I am grateful for the way in which the Leader has given way, and I appreciate that it is difficult at this stage. However, I wonder if he will comment on this section of the Bill in the context of constituencies where there is a low level of electoral registration. His noble friend sitting next to him referred to an “average” on the radio this morning, but we all know that non-registration is much higher in impoverished communities in city centres. What are the Government doing in advance of this proposal to change constituency numbers to ensure that the electorate have a proper chance and are encouraged to register?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, of course registration is important, and currently the average registration in the United Kingdom is 90 per cent, which, by international comparisons, is extremely high. We will continue to encourage people to register their votes and play a part in the democracy that we have in this country.
The commission will continue to use the electoral register as the basis for its reviews, as it has done for decades. To go on to the point that the noble Baroness just raised, as the secretaries to the Boundary Commissions themselves have noted, the register is the most comprehensive data source that is regularly updated, and this Government will continue to seek ways of ensuring that more individuals exercise their right to register.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Does the noble Lord accept that low registration in inner-city constituencies means high-population constituencies? Is that not a central flaw in the Government’s whole approach?
Lord Strathclyde
No, my Lords. First, the basis of deciding constituencies based on the size of the electoral register is well precedented. Secondly, the Government will continue to seek ways of ensuring that individuals exercise their right to register. So we will want to avoid the problem that the noble Lord raises.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Does the Minister not accept that it is extremely difficult to get high levels of registration in inner-city constituencies?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that does not negate the reason for creating fairly based constituencies of 76,000 electors plus or minus 5 per cent.
Members of this House have opposing views on which is the better system with which to elect Members of the other place, but the place for that debate is during the campaign. At the end of the campaign, it will be for the voters to decide which system will be used in the future, and this is fair too.
Before I finish, I will briefly outline the effect of the substantive clauses. I know that many noble Lords wish to speak, so I will not detain the House with a clause-by-clause commentary. I hope it will suffice to say that there are three main parts to this Bill: provisions for a referendum to be held and combined with other polls on 5 May are found in Clauses 1 to 7 and Schedules 1 to 9; provisions for implementation of the alternative vote system in the event of a yes vote in the referendum are found in Clause 9 and Schedule 10; and provisions to reform the setting of parliamentary boundaries are found in Clauses 10 to 13. The remaining Clauses 14 to 19 and Schedule 11 deal with technical and financial aspects of the Bill, and that is it.
It is not a complex Bill. It offers a referendum on the alternative vote, reduces the size of the House of Commons and makes the size of constituencies more equal. This is a fair Bill and a clear Bill. It gives people choice on how they vote and a more equal say when they do vote. The other place, which is uniquely affected by it, has approved it, and I commend it to the House.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, together with my noble friend Lord Bach, I shall pick up the baton so expertly carried by my right honourable friend Mr Sadiq Khan and my honourable friend Mr Chris Bryant in another place. We have heard two speeches today from the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, the Leader of the House. In the first, he refused to engage with the issue at all, and in the second, he said that we should not think about amending the Bill because the House of Commons has approved it. I regard this House as responsible for improving legislation so, if the noble Lord does not mind, we will reject his second invitation.
This has been described as the most important constitutional Bill since 1832. Those are not my words but a description of the Bill by the right honourable Mr Nicholas Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, who came to office stressing that his job is to raise what he described as the hitherto lamentable standards of our politics. As he put it on 19 May 2010,
“This government is going to persuade you to put your faith in politics once again”.
The Deputy Prime Minister had the opportunity in this Bill, the most important constitutional change since 1832, to put his sanctimonious mouth where his money is. Instead, there has been no Green Paper, no public consultation and no pre-legislative scrutiny, which are all things that over the years we became so used to hearing the Tories and the Liberal Democrats demanding. At the first opportunity, they have disappointed us and they have disappointed the public out there. This is hypocrisy, and hypocrisy does not help to restore trust.
This Bill spent nine days being debated in another place, the place to which it is most important. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in the Commons said of the process:
“The Deputy Prime Minister has accurately described the Bill as ‘fundamental to this House and to our democracy’. We regret that the Government’s timetable has denied us an adequate opportunity to scrutinise the Bill”.
The Bill before your Lordships' House today is an ill-thought-through, partisan muddle of a piece of legislation that, in truth, seems to be more about ensuring the longevity of the coalition than about nobler aims of equality of representation. As the Minister has told us, the Government seek to hold a referendum to ask the British public whether they would like to adopt the alternative vote system for Westminster elections. The intended date for the referendum is 5 May 2011, a day on which more than 80 per cent of the population will, in addition, be asked to vote in local council, devolved Assembly or mayoral elections. The Bill is being rushed through to meet this desired target date.
However, can the Minister explain to the House why the rush with Part 2? The independent boundary commissions of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are being asked to redraw every single parliamentary constituency in three years, which is less than half the time that previous periodic boundary reviews have taken. They are being asked to do so before the electoral register, on which the new constituencies are to be based, can be brought up to date to correct for the estimated 3.5 million voters who are currently missing from it. Under-representation is the real scandal, but this Government feel that that can wait to be addressed until after they have railroaded through new constituencies based on flawed data that will inevitably punish the people to which my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours referred. This is not fair but nonsensical.
If all that were not illogical enough, the Government—and the noble Lord did not even mention this—seek to take away any serious public say in the redesign of constituencies. Public inquiries, which are the democratic life-blood of boundary reviews and which allow local people a say in what happens to their local representation, are being removed. Why? Obviously, to fit in with the timetable. There is no rational justification for this haste, which is born of a wish to hold the next general election in 2015 and subsequent elections every five years after that using the favoured electoral boundaries. The Bill before us proposes five-yearly boundary reviews in future to match this election cycle. As our all-party Constitution Committee noted in its excellent report on this Bill,
“the provisions of this Bill and the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill are interrelated”.
The damning conclusion of that all-party committee was that,
“the constitutional relationship between the provisions of this Bill and the Government's other proposals for constitutional reform have not been adequately thought through”.
We wholeheartedly agree.
The committee’s criticism of the process is all the more heated—rightly so, we would argue—for the lack of any pre-legislative consultation. It is an insult to democracy and to the principles that we in this House hold so highly that a measure to enact constitutional change of such lasting significance has not been subject to pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation. Only last month, the Leader of the House said that the Government are committed to pre-legislative scrutiny because,
“it improves the quality of legislation and provides an opportunity for public engagement”.—[Official Report, 28/10/10; col. 1306.].
What was wrong with this Bill, the most important constitutional Bill since 1832, that it did not require that? The Constitution Committee concluded:
“This is an unsatisfactory basis on which to embark on fundamental reform of the legislature”.
Lord Strathclyde
I do not like to overquibble with the noble and learned Lord, but I went on to say that early Bills in a Session could hardly be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny because they were early Bills in the Session.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
What a load of nonsense. Of course they could be subjected to pre-legislative scrutiny. I shall tell the noble Lord what you do. You say, “Let’s have pre-legislative scrutiny first”, as I understand the Government are doing in relation to House of Lords reform. Why could that not have been done in relation to Part 2 of the Bill?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, exemplifies the attitude of the Liberal Democrats, who seem to think that the Bill is splendid and marvellous. Look at them. The moment that they have the most important constitutional Bill since 1832, they simply ignore the—if I may say so—entirely admirable approach to which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, refers. I do not know why he is looking at me. He should be looking at the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.
This is an unsatisfactory Bill. As its specific proposals are not to be found in either of the coalition party’s general election manifestos, we must conclude that not only is it an unsatisfactory Bill but, as the noble Lord appeared to be conceding, it has no mandate. This is truly a shame. We on this side of the House support the holding of a referendum on the electoral system for elections to the House of Commons and we approve of the stated intention to bring the size of Westminster constituencies more into line with each other than they are at present, but the way in which the Government articulated their proposals and rammed them through in another place quite hypocritically—as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has demonstrated—was shoddy. Then they say, “We can’t change it because the other House has approved it”. I should say to the noble Lord that this has succeeded in uniting opposition to their plans.
First, on the Liberal Democrat part of the Bill, the AV referendum, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that the provisions in Part 1 are not in reality a referendum Bill. The Bill seeks to change our system of voting from first past the post to an alternative vote system, but it makes the introduction of those changes subject to a yes vote in a referendum. The referendum in this Bill is not advisory, as in all previous referendum Bills in this country, but binding. There is a requirement on the Minister to lay the order that will introduce the changes. It is totally unclear from the Bill whether it will be a negative or an affirmative order that will fundamentally change our electoral system. We need therefore to scrutinise very carefully the provisions concerning the new system.
The Bill proposes that the referendum will take place on the same day as elections already scheduled in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and most local authorities in England. The Government have failed to consult with the devolved institutions on the timing of the referendum. The plans have been condemned by the devolved Assemblies, but the Government have arrogantly ploughed ahead regardless and have not explained the magic of this date. We need to ensure that, if there is a referendum, it is one that best addresses the development of the electoral system in our country.
The following are points that we will explore in the next stages of this Bill. First, the referendum should be advisory and not binding. Secondly, the referendum should give voters the opportunity to vote on other systems apart from just first past the post or AV. Thirdly, the date should be moved to a date when there are no other elections. Fourthly, there should be a threshold of yes votes measured against a total number of those who can vote in the referendum.
Part 2 proposes a reduction in the size of the House of Commons by 50 MPs and a redrawing of constituency boundaries that—give or take 5 per cent—will prioritise the equal size of parliamentary seats above all other factors. Considerations of community, local ties, shape and accessibility of constituencies and geographical and natural boundaries are all to be subordinate to achieving the numerical ideal. On this side of the House, first, we ask the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, where the magic total of 600 constituencies has come from. I apologise for asking that because he has answered that question. He said that it came “from the air”. It certainly does not derive from either of the—
Lord Strathclyde
I did not say that the figure came from the air. I said that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, had grabbed it from the air. I said that it was a nice round figure.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I apologise. The noble Lord is absolutely right. It was the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who said that the figure was plucked from the air. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that it was “a nice round figure”. Thank you very much. Does the 600 figure have anything to do with research from the University of Liverpool, conducted for “Newsnight”, which clearly demonstrates that Labour will be the net losers in this situation? Labour would lose 25 seats to the Tories’ 13 and the Lib Dems’ seven.
Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Functions) (Amendment) Order 2010
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft order and draft regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
Coalition Policies
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many responses they have had to their consultation on The Coalition: Our Programme for Government; and how many of those solely endorsed coalition policies.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, no fewer than 9,500 comments were received in response to the publication of The Coalition: Our Programme for Government. Departmental responses are still available to view online and I have asked for a copy to be laid in the Library. An exercise to count the number of comments which solely endorsed coalition policies could be carried out, but only at disproportionate cost.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I suggest that it would not take too long. Is the Minister aware that 9,500 people made comments, gave suggestions and put forward ideas, yet not one government policy was changed or even tweaked as a result? The responses are not on the websites—they have been taken offline—so we will be pleased to see them in the Library. Does the noble Lord accept that this was a disappointing PR exercise? Does he think that it should be done again? If so, will he assure this House that it will be a case of the Government not just noting the responses but actually listening to what people have to say?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot agree with the noble Baroness even though she puts it most charmingly. It was a useful exercise and we learnt a lot from it. Each department has given its thoughts and ideas on what has been said; those are available on departmental websites. But they have not gone back to each response, partly because, although it was a commentable document, it was not part of a consultative exercise. We learnt a lot and I am sure that in due course we will repeat it.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there have been fundamental reappraisals of government policy, particularly in the field of criminal justice and prisons? Was there consensus endorsement of that policy? Will he thank the Secretary of State for these profound changes in policy and make sure that they are converted into legislation before long?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is very good of my noble friend to point that out. The whole process of creating the original document, Our Programme for Government, was done extremely quickly, with maximum co-operation between the two parties, which is one reason why I believe that it was a success.
Lord Richard
My Lords, in his response to my noble friend the noble Lord twice said: “We have learned a lot”. What have they learned?
Lord Strathclyde
Would the noble Lord, Lord Richard, believe me if I said that the volume of correspondence generated far exceeded our expectations? The process of moderating these websites and sifting comments and ideas proved to be more resource-intensive than we had anticipated. However, we remain committed to canvassing the public’s views on a range of issues using on and offline channels.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, is my noble friend not concerned that, with the decline of religion in this country, consultation runs the risk of becoming the opiate of the people?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, not everybody is keen on consultation, but on the whole it is a good idea to give people as many opportunities as possible to comment on government policy, and I am rather pleased that 9,500 bothered to reply to this document when it was issued.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
But if I heard the noble Lord correctly, he stated this was not a consultation. In those circumstances, is it not true that manifestos have now become a mockery and that the British people’s confidence in politics has been further undermined by having been presented with policies over which they have had no say? If this Government had been open and honest with the public when drafting their coalition policy—and if they had wanted to give a lead to the rest of Europe—should they not have put it to them in a referendum?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, when the noble Lord said that manifestos have become a mockery, he must have been talking about the Labour Party’s manifesto.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, bearing in mind the welcome initiative by the coalition, does my noble friend envisage that after future general elections each Government will publish their programme for the forthcoming Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
Of course we do that already, vis-à-vis the Queen’s Speech, but we would not have needed to publish this document if there had been a clear majority by the Conservative Party. It was needed because we got together with our Liberal Democrat allies to create the coalition.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his utterly charming responses this afternoon. Does he believe—I do not—that the Salisbury/Addison convention should apply to policies which are outlined in the coalition agreement?
Lord Strathclyde
Broadly speaking, yes, I do, because they have the support of the majority in the House of Commons and were overwhelmingly and clearly pointed out in the respective manifestos. There are one or two exceptions where that is not the case but, as I said before, we will recognise them when we see them.
Lord Grocott
As it is not necessarily feasible to go through and analyse every single response, can the Leader of the House at least tell us how many people wrote in saying they thought it would be a good idea to spend £100 million on a referendum on the alternative vote?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord is of course right that it is far too short a time to look at each one but I flicked through the responses usefully over lunch and, for instance, here is one taken at random:
“We want referendums on national issues as we were promised”.
Another is:
“We want FAIR VOTES NOW!”.
Here is another one:
“I am concerned that having an elected upper house will mean that there is less accountability rather than more”.
I thought that one would go down well.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
Will the Leader of the House confirm that, as the alternative vote was a manifesto pledge of the Labour Party, when we come to discuss it next Monday and following from then, that party will stand firm on its commitment to the alternative vote?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am looking forward to the Labour Party’s support on that Bill.
Clerk of the Parliaments
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the current Clerk of the Parliaments, Michael Pownall, who was appointed for a three-year term on 4 November 2007, has at my request agreed to an extension of his appointment until 15 April 2011. I am pleased to say that Her Majesty the Queen has agreed to such an extension. Mr Pownall has written to me in the following terms:
“Dear Leader of the House,
I am grateful to you for notifying me of the extension of my appointment as Clerk of the Parliaments.
In coming to the decision to retire next April, I have borne in mind that I will by then have served the House of Lords for nearly 40 years. There have, of course, been many changes and challenges over this period, not least during my time as Clerk of the Parliaments; and it has been a great privilege to have played a part in the development of the House as an effective second chamber. As Clerk of the Parliaments, I have been extremely well supported by the staff of the House who as you know, show great commitment to the House and its work.
Please would you convey to Members of the House my appreciation for their support and friendship over the years.
Yours sincerely
Michael Pownall”.
I am consulting the other party leaders in the House, the Convenor of the Cross Benches and the Lord Speaker on a process to appoint a successor to Mr Pownall. The timetable for that process should mean that the recommendation for a successor to Mr Pownall can be made to Her Majesty shortly after the Christmas Recess. As is customary, I will put before the House nearer the time of his retirement a Motion to enable Members to pay proper tribute to the services of Michael Pownall.
Business of the House
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Lord McNally
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Baroness Hollis of Heigham and Lord Puttnam set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.