EU: Polish Presidency

Lord Richard Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

Have the Government yet had the opportunity of discussing with the Polish Government the provisions of the European Union Bill, and explaining to them that no less than 56 instances could spark a referendum in this country? If they have done that, could he tell us what their reaction was?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We have certainly discussed the European Union Bill with all our European partners in various ways. We have not raised with them the noble Lord’s proposition, because it is completely inaccurate and does not represent any aspect of that Bill. The whole idea of there being 56 items which could initiate a referendum is complete nonsense. These are 56 veto elements in four or five absolutely key areas, which the noble Lord, as a supporter of the previous Government, believed are important just as the rest of the British people do today.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I think that the noble Lord will find that I have cleared this intervention with the usual channels, and I am sorry if he was not part of it.

I think I was saying that even the political class now realises that the euro has become the disaster—

[Lord Richard]

Is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that the usual channels have agreed that he should say what he has been saying about people in this House who are in receipt of pensions from Europe? Is he seriously suggesting that that has been agreed by the usual channels? If not, will he withdraw it?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

If any noble Lord wishes to move that I be no longer heard, I am quite happy to debate that, but in the mean time, I believe I did clear this. It may be that they did not have a meeting. I think I am entirely in order to express regrets about this Bill as it passes towards the House of Commons and to say why.

[Lord Richard]

The noble Lord says that he believes he cleared it. Is he not sure that he cleared it? If he is not sure, does he not think that he should not have made those statements?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I started my intervention with the leave of the House. If the noble Lord wishes to remove the leave of the House, he is free to do so, and we can debate whether or not I should be heard. I appreciate that noble and Europhile Lords do not wish to hear what I am saying, but unless it is moved against me, I intend to continue saying what I am saying.

So, for the third time, I was hoping that the political class has come to realise what a disaster the euro is. Many of us predicted it. It is a disaster which is being visited on the hapless people of Europe, now particularly Greece, but soon on other countries too.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Richard]

He said he would.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

If the noble Lord will hold with me for another few seconds, I think that what I am saying is worth having on the record.

I was asking the Government why they cannot see that democracy is the only reliable guarantor of peace and long-term prosperity, and that the sooner we get back to a Europe of democratic nations, freely trading and collaborating together with all their powers returned to their national Parliaments, the better it will be for all the peoples of Europe and, indeed, of the rest of the world beyond. That is entirely in context with the passage of this Bill as it goes to the House of Commons, and as this is the third time I have asked the noble Lord, Lord Howell, the question, I would be grateful for his reply.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I think that I have taken part in virtually all our Committee days. We are beginning to get to the end of our labours, although there are still a few amendments to go. This is a very important amendment and it has been discussed at great length. However, I want to get back to the reason why we have the Bill at all. It is because the people of this country have felt let down by the Government, and indeed by Parliament, for not involving them in very important decisions which affect their lives and the future of our country. I think that the Lisbon treaty brought that to a head and persuaded the Conservative Party that it had to do something about it. Together with its Liberal Democrat colleagues, it has now brought forward a Bill which, frankly, I believe has to stand virtually as it is or not at all. For that reason alone, if there is a vote, I shall vote against the amendment.

During our debates, we have heard a lot about parliamentary democracy, and so we should. Of course everyone agrees with real parliamentary democracy, if that is what we are talking about, but are we really talking about proper parliamentary democracy or do we have a “whipocracy”, in which great issues are not decided following proper debate in Parliament and relatively free votes on important constitutional matters but are voted on at the behest of government with strong whipping? Under those circumstances we cannot say that Parliament alone should be responsible for the great issues of who governs Britain—which is what it is all about.

[Lord Richard]

I have listened to the noble Lord for 20 years. He has been a passionate supporter of parliamentary democracy and British sovereignty, and has passionately opposed any kind of Eurofication or steps towards greater union with the countries of Europe. How on earth does he square the position that he has held for donkey’s years that Parliament is sovereign, and that it is what Parliament does that matters, with the idea that now Parliament has been doing things that he does not like it can no longer be trusted—even though Governments with majorities have been elected in general elections—so we have to move to a different form of public consultation? It is inconsistent with everything that he has said for 20 years.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Of course, I have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, for longer than 20 years, and I know that he is an absolutely committed Europhile. He is right to say that I am very much in favour of parliamentary democracy, but I am trying to explain that in relation to the European Union we do not have a proper parliamentary democracy. All the amendments made to the European Communities Act 1972 were made by treaty. Under those circumstances, the Government agree to the treaty and sign it. One former Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs said, “Now that I've signed the treaty, perhaps I'd better read it”. Therefore, we cannot be sure that even those who sign the treaties know what they are about. Nevertheless, the treaty then comes before Parliament and Ministers come to the Dispatch Box and say, “You must pass this treaty because we have agreed to it. If you do not, the country's standing in the world will be damaged and we will never be trusted again”. Governments put Parliament in an almost impossible position. If Parliament rejects the treaty out of hand, the Government will say, “My God, we have no further influence in the world because Parliament has declared that it does not agree with the treaty”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, to follow the argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on referenda, the last few sentences of his speech seemed to indicate more than anything else a decision or a desire to support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and not to vote against it. Referenda are scattered throughout the clauses in the Bill on almost any given issue on which it is quite absurd that there should have to be a referendum.

Will the noble Lord consider again the provisions of Schedule 1 and apply them to Northern Ireland? Is he seriously suggesting that in Northern Ireland there should be a referendum on,

“provisions concerning passports, identity cards, residence permits … minimum rules on criminal procedure”,

or a

“decision identifying other areas of crime”,

or on the, “European Public Prosecutor’s Office”? Is he suggesting that there should be one on,

“police co-operation … cross-border operation by competent authorities … harmonisation of indirect taxes”,

in Northern Ireland, or on the,

“approximation of national laws affecting internal market”?

I could go on and on about this.

The point about the Bill is that if it was enacted you would have to have referenda on those issues. The noble Lord is saying that once we have crossed the bridge and accepted referenda in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, why do we not accept them in this Bill? One does not accept them in this Bill because these are not proper and fit matters to be put to a referendum. They are matters for a Government to decide.

I cannot believe that the noble Lord would advocate having referenda on the issues set out on Schedule 1 if they were to apply only to Northern Ireland. It is absurd; it could not be done. It is exactly what Parliament is there to do. You do not to consult people on issues of that sort; you govern. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, specifically confined the issue of referenda, which he accepts—and we accept—to certain major constitutional issues. I totally accept that. If the Bill confined it to those issues, no doubt there would be much less difficulty in getting it through. When it is as absurdly worrying as it is here, it does not make a great deal of sense.

[Lord Empey]

The noble Lord, Lord Richard, caught me as I was sitting down. I think he has misunderstood the point that I made at the beginning of my remarks about what the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, said—that the argument was that Parliament should effectively decide. I made the point to him that we had been required to have a referendum whereby the people in that referendum were taking a decision outwith Parliament. I was not suggesting for one moment that referenda would be held in Northern Ireland alone—in fact, the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, listed are United Kingdom-wide. Tax harmonisation and the rest are very important matters but they are United Kingdom-wide not Northern Ireland-specific.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, I can add very little to the lucid presentation made by my noble friend Lord Williamson. I start from premises which I have described to the House before. My first premise is to regard referenda as unreliable things. The more complex the subject, the less reliable they become. I have said many times that the referenda which I have always been enthusiastic about were those which I was able to introduce at a meeting of the Welsh area council of the Conservative Party in the 1960s—namely, to determine, on a county basis and at seven-year intervals, whether public houses should be open on Sunday. That was put into law within a short time by Henry Brooke and remained there for 35 years, because after five seven-year lapses every county in Wales had finally been liberated, Caernarvon being the last. My noble and learned friend Lord Morris was then able to repeal the legislation. Nobody can argue with that.

Between 1974 and 1979, when I was on the opposition Benches in the other place and was able to do other things, I was on the board of a company called AGB Research, which was one of the largest and most effective market research companies in Europe, specialising largely in the measurement of television and broadcasting audiences. The whole process depended on trying to determine what people thought. In so far as we were dealing with quite simple things about broadcasting, it was easy enough to decide. In so far as we were measuring relative enthusiasm as between butter and margarine, we felt that we could rely on a referendum-style questioning and answering analysis. But unlike many of our competitors, we were always clear that we would never touch political opinion polls with a bargepole because we felt that in that area, however well one tried to do it, the outcome was likely to be less than lucid and less than decisive. For that reason, throughout this legislation I have been wholly lacking in enthusiasm for the introduction of referenda in substitute for decisions taken by Parliament.

We have reached the point when referenda seem likely to remain in legislation, but the least we can do is to try to make those referenda less ill founded than they might otherwise be. If we do not prescribe a minimum along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, then we are at the mercy of decisions being taken by almost invisible percentage votes. I do not regard there being much wisdom in a 40 per cent referendum, but I am delighted to be able to follow an example set by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who was a colleague in the other place for many years and who, the House may remember, was also the author of the Rooker-Wise amendment on income tax legislation. So for the second time, although it is not like that Rooker-Wise legislation and his name does not even appear on this amendment, I am glad to endorse his wisdom, particularly when it is reinforced by the lucid, compact argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. It is the minimum we can do to exclude the unreliability of this unattractive device. It should be in the hands of Parliament. This amendment enables it to come back into the hands of Parliament if certain conditions are not fulfilled. I speak in support of the amendment.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I speak in partial support of this amendment. I cannot say I am very enthusiastic about part of it, but nevertheless I agree with the general thrust. Before I turn to the amendment, I would like to say how much I admire the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, particularly his actions in the 1950s in persuading the Conservative party in Wales to agree to a set of referendums on whether pubs should be open on Sundays. I say that because in the valley where I was brought up there was a Labour majority of 35,000, but the club with the biggest membership of all was the local Conservative club. Why? Because it was open on Sundays. He deserves to be commended for his altruism, which deprived the Amman Valley’s Conservative party of a considerable amount of beer money.

My Lords, I am not too keen on this amendment for one reason. We have a figure which, if it is not reached, then prima facie at any rate the referendum should not be valid. However, in those circumstances where the turnout does not reach 40 per cent, the result is deemed to be valid because the matter will come back to Parliament and, if each House passes a resolution saying that, despite the turnout being under 40 per cent, the measure should go through, then it will go through. I question the value of that. If you have that in the Bill, it seems to me it is slightly pointless having a 40 per cent plateau. If one is going to have a figure that the turnout must reach for the referendum to be effective, why should Parliament give the Government a second chance of getting their policy through? If there is a condition that you must have 40 per cent, surely if you get that 40 per cent the referendum is valid; if you do not, the logical conclusion is that the referendum is not valid. If it were as simple as that, I would support the amendment entirely. On the other hand, I must say that if the amendment is one the House is prepared to accept, I would certainly go along with it rather than not have anything like it.

[Lord Waddington]

My Lords, I find the amendment rather strange. I certainly agree that a poor turnout may be taken as complete lack of interest in having a referendum on the issue, but a poor turnout certainly could not be taken as support for the measure in question. One must remember what sort of measures we are talking about: these are measures that cede more power to the European Union. So if there is a low turnout, the one thing that is absolutely certain—along with the fact that there may be lack of enthusiasm in voting at all—is that there is minimum support for ceding more power to the EU. That seems to me to be an absolutely rotten reason for handing the whole matter back to Parliament. Half the trouble at present, and the reason there is so much distrust over this whole area, is that people feel that, over the years, Parliament has been far too fast to cede more powers to the EU.

As I have said before, it seems extraordinary that when the people give to our parliamentarians the opportunity to use certain specific powers they then spend the whole of a Parliament handing over those powers to other people. No wonder there is a lack of understanding of what is being done in the people’s name. It is pretty nonsensical to say that if there is a low turnout in the referendum, we should hand the whole matter to Parliament, which is half the cause of the trouble in the first place. After all, it is Parliament which the public feel, with fairly good evidence, cheated them of the opportunity of a referendum when Lisbon turned up as a rehash of the European constitution. That is one of the causes for the Bill. We are having a Bill now to try to rebuild some of the lost confidence in the EU, and we should judge the amendment by that problem. As far as I can see, the amendment would add to the problem rather than reduce it.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, of course I am aware of that. I also remember Henry Kissinger saying that he rather liked one telephone number to ring in Europe. I have to tell the noble Baroness that Mr Kissinger changed his mind when he read Mr Christopher Booker’s book, The Great Deception, after which he said, “Oh, at last I understand the thing”. We can come and go on that one, but time is pressing.

The British people are waking up to the truth of all this, and they do not like it. Eighty per cent want a referendum on EU membership. They want their democracy back and they will want any chance to be heard in any referendum, which touches on the huge deception that has been practised on them by their political class, which is their entrapment in the European Union. These amendments would deny them that opportunity, so I trust that the Government will not accept them.

[Lord Richard]

It is very bad for me to sit where I do, so full of good will and bonhomie. All the world is my friend and then the noble Lord behind me gets up. I am bound to say that when I listen to him I am provoked to get up and say one or two things myself.

First, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Of course the euro is not an issue in this Bill, nor is it being discussed in this Bill. We all accept that if there is a decision by the British Government to join the euro there has to be a referendum. I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, would approve of that rather than criticise it. His speech was a diatribe against the European Union and its development: how it operates, what it does, and so on. It is all very predictable and well known, and we have heard it often from the noble Lord, but it does not seem to have anything to do with the amendments that we are supposed to be discussing.

The issue is whether we have a sunset clause in one form or another in this Bill. With the permission of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, I will actually discuss the amendments. Why should we have a sunset clause in this Bill? There are basically three reasons. First, however one looks at it, this is a highly controversial Bill and we have spent a long time on it. There have been clear divisions between what the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, is pleased to describe as those who have experience of Europe and those who have not. There have been clear divisions on how far the Bill should go and what it should apply to. So my first point is that the controversy surrounding the Bill is one of the issues to justify a sunset clause and reconsideration by the next Government.

Secondly, not only has it been controversial; it is distinctly novel. However one looks at the Bill, the idea that you can import into the British constitution a requirement for a mandatory referenda in 56 different cases—in a way that is perceived not to be novel but almost revolutionary, if I may say so—is, frankly, beyond me. If it were to be introduced, the British constitution would be turned upside down. If we had referenda of this type and on this scale, in these numbers, it would transform the whole parliamentary processes of our democracy. I am not in favour of transforming the processes of our parliamentary democracy. Indeed, I am on the whole in favour of keeping them.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

I was getting to that. Whoever said that EU legislation was dull and boring should see the enthusiasm of Members of this House to make sure that we examine every sentence. I was going to refer to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, on “or otherwise support”, and I shall do so now. Clause 7(3) states:

“A Minister of the Crown may not vote in favour of or otherwise support”.

However, that has to be read in the context of the following words:

“a decision to which this subsection applies unless the draft decision is approved by Act of Parliament”.

My interpretation of the words,

“or otherwise support a decision”,

is a slightly more legalistic one. Will the Minister clarify that point? I see “or otherwise support” as meaning to give assent to “a decision”—meaning a law. In other words, that is a decision as seen in the category of regulations, directives and decisions—in this case, a decision taking immediate effect. That is why supporting —in other words, giving assent to—the making of a law would not be possible, but the Minister would have to come back with a draft decision, and subsequently go back and support it. This might be a rather legalistic view of the issue, but I should be grateful if the Minister can confirm whether that is right. If it is, the words are entirely sensible.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I have looked at this section and tried to construe and understand it, which was difficult. If I may say so, we are making rather heavy weather of the phrase “or otherwise support”. There is only one issue that the House ought to consider—is the legislation clear as presently drafted? If it is, then of course a lot of this argument is negated. If it is not clear as drafted, someone—almost certainly the Government—ought to put it right. I am doing my best with this phrase,

“or otherwise support a decision”,

but I am finding it difficult to understand what it means. I do not know what “otherwise support” means. Does “otherwise” refer back to the original approval, or to something less than the approval that you are minded to support? This is an extremely difficult concept to grasp. In short, is it clear? The answer to that is no. Should it be amended? The answer to that is yes. Who should do the amending? It should, on the whole, be the parliamentary draftsman. If ever there was a case in which the Government should say, “Right; we agree there is something here that we can look at again”, this is one.

[Lord Triesman]

I have the same difficulties that have been expressed by a number of noble Lords in this debate. Broadly speaking, as my noble friend Lord Liddle and I have said on several occasions from this Dispatch Box, our position is that the kind of arrangement in Clause 7(1)—the requirement for Parliament to undertake the necessary work in all these circumstances—is well understood. It would increase the amount of parliamentary work on European legislation and would inevitably increase the amount of scrutiny we placed on such legislation. That is bound to be a good thing. In our submission, it is also bound to reflect well on Parliament and its responsibility to do the job adequately, without turning to a multiple requirement for referenda.

This clause, at least in some of its wording, is not just a lock but a double lock. There are two kinds of locks in it. The first is that, apart from the matters covered in the clause, there will be a referendum lock, and there is a double lock on the political process in which a Minister might take any reasonable part in any reasonable discussion of any reasonable proposition in order to make sure that their parliamentary colleagues—let alone the public—know what the issues are and how they stand on them.

There is no difficulty with the notion of the first part, where the requirement is,

“may not vote in favour”.

That is the point on which, I suspect, there is a great deal of agreement around the House. However, I do not think that the use of “or otherwise support” is a simply a drafting or technical matter. I rely in part on the fact that those words appear in many clauses. This is not the only example. Clause after clause imposes the requirement. In general, when we have talked about these kinds of clause, the government Front Bench has indicated that in some sense—not in any sense that Ministers have described to us, and certainly not in any detail—it will be all right on the night and that it will not somehow have got in the way of anyone engaging in serious political work.

We first moved an amendment to delete that wording some time ago; I continue to believe that it is unhelpful and inappropriate. I put to the Government the following thought, which flows from ministerial experience—a good many Members of this House have real ministerial experience in this and other foreign affairs issues. Ministerial experience tells me that it is wholly impractical to try to do the political job without being able to speak on any matter of substance while you are doing it. Your processes of thought—the decisions to which you may come not instantly but as a result of discussion—must remain wholly obscure. Can you even say that you wish to deploy the knowledge you have of the issue? Can you say that you think that it is in the national interest that the issue is thought about and resolved? Can you find words in the process in which you are engaged—some of us have been engaged in these processes in much detail over the years—that are so neutral that nobody could misunderstand any word or syllable that you said as being other than completely neutral and not demonstrating any inference of support? Can you realistically anticipate that everyone will agree that what is said is so neutral that they will not claim that it is a breach of the law when they do not agree with you or the outcome? We have heard noble Lords saying in terms that they are in fundamental disagreement with almost anything. I do not mean noble Lords on the government Benches—they are just happily confused—but noble Lords in UKIP, for example, have found it almost inconceivable that anything that could be said would not represent some slippage into a greater presence of Europe in the United Kingdom.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, that it is not a matter of how she reads Clause 7(3). Of course it is all about decisions. Draft decisions are bound to give rise to the expression of a view, or nobody would have drafted them. That is precisely why you would draft a decision. I cannot believe that we do not agree on that basic proposition.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blackwell]

My Lords, I oppose the amendment for the opposite reasons to those that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and others gave for promoting it. It is important that it is very clear that the UK Government are not enabled to support or enable moves to go forward in Europe that imply a treaty change or a substantive shift in competences, without it being very clear that the UK Government must have support in a referendum.

The issue for me is that if the words “or otherwise support” were removed from Clause 6(1), the only restriction would be on a Minister of the Crown voting in favour. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, said, there are many situations in which a vote may neither be required nor be part of the procedure. Simply by sitting still or abstaining, Ministers may enable something to happen that would have binding consequences for the UK. To remove the words “or otherwise support” would completely nullify the provision. The discussion has led me to wonder whether the wording goes far enough, or whether we need additional text stating “to otherwise support or allow by default” a decision to which the provision applies. I would like an assurance from the Minister that this will catch all those situations where abstention, sitting on the hands or complicity would enable decisions to move forward.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I found that contribution extraordinary. Is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that if you sit on your hands and do nothing you are positively supporting something? Is he seriously suggesting that if the procedures are such that an abstention may produce a particular result in a vote, by engaging in that abstention and not participating in the vote one is somehow allowing it to go through? We are one country among a group and, as such, we have the options of supporting something, not supporting it or abstaining. You can decide, “I support it”, “I do not support it” or “I am not going to say whether I am going to support it or not”. The first of those is clearly support. The second is clearly not support. The third is an intermediate position which is neither support nor rejection. In those circumstances, I cannot for the life of me see how the words in the Bill can cover that intermediate position.

[Lord Blackwell]

I am suggesting that because, as the noble Lord will know, in Councils in Europe if you abstain or are simply absent from the meeting you do not prevent binding decisions being taken that would have an impact on the UK. If there is a decision about something that implies a transfer of competence from the UK of the kind that this Bill deals with, I would not want a situation where the noble Lord or a Minister representing the UK could—by simply not turning up—avoid his obligation to say to the European Union that a decision cannot go through because it is subject to a binding referendum in the UK.

[Lord Richard]

I do not want to pursue this too much, but is the noble Lord again seriously suggesting that if you do not turn up to a meeting you are supporting something? That is an extraordinary proposition.

[Lord Blackwell]

If by not turning up you allow a decision to be taken that binds the UK, you are implicitly supporting it.

European Union Bill

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Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords, I frequently agree with some, but not all, the views put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. However, on this occasion I agree more with some of the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Radice and Lord Richard. I agree that enlargement has been a positive development. Indeed, if you have an organisation called the European Union, it is unthinkable that you should exclude from it countries that before the advent of communism in Europe were part of the European family of nations, many of which had living standards and political systems similar to those in western Europe.

Some years ago I took part in a debate on the European Union with my noble friend Lord Brittan, who I am pleased to see sitting beside me. I think that the debate took place in 1993 or 1994, and I remember that my noble friend attacked me because I had not said a single positive thing about the European Union in my speech. I could not think of a single positive thing to say about the European Union at that time. However, if I took part in another such debate with my noble friend, I would say that enlargement is a considerable development that has been advantageous to the countries that have joined and to Europe generally.

If I may say so, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, made a good point that slightly bothered me. I support the Bill, but he said that within the logic of what he called this “crazy Bill” there surely ought to be a referendum on enlargement, given that we might have a referendum on altering the procedures for the appointment of a public prosecutor and other matters that the noble Lord regards as rather marginal. I was bothered about that question, and I have been sitting here for 20 minutes trying to think of an answer. It is that in those areas where they say there should be a referendum—including matters such as altering the procedures or powers on the appointment of a public prosecutor—the Government do not actually intend there to be a referendum, because they do not intend that such propositions should advance further at all. The Government are trying to put a lock on the issue and to stop it happening. They are drawing a red line on legislation for the immediate future, whereas they are in favour of enlargement, and that is why they have not applied the lock or the referendum provision to enlargement.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I am terribly sorry that I gave the noble Lord 20 minutes’ thought. Nevertheless, may I put a question to him? If the Government have no intention of using these powers—which is what he is saying—why on earth are they in the Bill? What is the point?

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

It is not a question of not using the powers; they are there to serve a purpose. The Government have indicated that they will not move further forward in any of these areas and they are enshrining in legislation obstacles to this ever happening in the future. Given the competence creep and the way in which power has seeped directly and indirectly, openly and less openly, to Brussels, I totally support the Government’s objective, and I have given the best answer that I can think of to the noble Lord.

European Union Bill

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Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes]

I hope the noble Lord will forgive me; he has not been here since the beginning of the debate.

I shall quote from the Lisbon treaty itself. One of the most important clauses of all shows the intrinsic respect for national sovereignty that comes into the treaty as well as the collective obligations and duties that any treaty applies to its members. That is the case in the European Union. It is nothing to be afraid of. One of the most important preambular clauses states:

“Pursuant to the principle of sincere cooperation, the Union and the Member States shall, in full mutual respect, assist each other in carrying out tasks which flow from the Treaties”.

The tasks that flow from the treaties include the long list in Clause 4, the Article 48(6) items and others as well. There is nothing to fear from any of the minor extensions that come from there, and any of the significant ones can be referendable if the Government do not say what any Government of this country always say that they will do, which is to veto an unacceptable proposal in the Council of Ministers, meaning that a treaty obligation therefore lapses and is not carried.

The Lords Constitution Committee said on 17 March that most referendum-lock items would never be covered because of policy decisions. That would make some sense, but can we really rely on the Government being able to stand up to their very vocal lobby of Eurosceptics and chauvinistic characters, particularly in the House of Commons, who have got worse and worse, as we have seen in debates in the Commons on this Bill? If they wanted to maintain sanity in a difficult world, Ministers could therefore issue a non-significant decision every few weeks or months. Would that make sense? Indeed, the unique national British referendum requirement could actually be at odds with international law—but I suppose that we would not mind that too much, least of all the antis.

There is a great deal of doublethink and confused thinking here among senior members of the Government, including, I am sad to say, the junior partner—I never thought that I would say that in this House but that is the reality that we have to face—but it is time for the Government to consider these amendments seriously and accept them today.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, we have had a brisk debate so far, to put it mildly. I want to try to meet an argument that has been put today by two noble Lords opposite about the question of balance. It says that the Bill basically provides a sensible balance between the position that the European Union is not the most popular institution with the great British electorate and what should be done about it. The question of balance is being raised.

Let us just analyse this for two seconds. It applies to Clauses 3 and 4, to Clause 6 and to the schedule. The basis for the so-called balance is that if certain issues arise, the great British public will be reassured because there will have to be a referendum. That is the whole basis of the Bill. Clauses 3 and 4 set out which treaty amendments will require a referendum. I see that under Clause 4(1)(a) to (m) a referendum will be required. Quite how would you frame a question for a referendum on, for example under paragraph (d),

“the conferring on the EU of a new competence shared with the member States”.?

Will you ask, “Are you in favour of this new competence shared with the member states, which the Government have already approved and put to Parliament”? Does that make sense? Is that balanced? Of course not; it is a gross distortion of the whole process.

That is Clause 4—the height of the Bill. Go to Clause 6, which is unbelievable as far as balance is concerned. The Bill gets worse as it goes on but I will just deal with Clause 6, which says:

“The decisions to which subsection (1) applies are … a decision under the provision of Article 31(3) … that permits the adoption of qualified majority voting”.

Look at paragraph (c), which refers to,

“a decision under Article 86(1) … involving participation by the United Kingdom in a European Public Prosecutor’s Office”.

That will demand a referendum. What will we ask? Will we say to the British people, “Are you in favour of the United Kingdom’s participation in a European public prosecutor’s office”? Will it be feasible to have a referendum campaign on that? Will people be lined up on each side of that argument, saying “Yes, I am in favour of a public prosecutor’s office” or “No, I am not in favour of a public prosecutor’s office”? Look at the next one.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Will my noble friend give way?

[Lord Richard]

No, not yet. The next paragraph refers to,

“where the United Kingdom has become a participant in a European Public Prosecutor’s Office, a decision under Article 86(4) … to extend the powers of that Office”.

What will you ask in relation to that? Will you say, “We have already decided that we will be a member of the public prosecutor’s office. Are you, the great British public, now in favour of an extension of those powers”? It is fatuous. How could you possibly campaign on that, and how could you possibly respect any result that you got?

[Lord Goodhart]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for raising these points. I should make it clear that I have tabled amendments, which will be dealt with later when we get to Clause 6, that deal specifically—and very much in line with what the noble Lord has said—with these subjects and other rather similar ones.

[Lord Richard]

I am glad to have such approval of what I am saying in advance. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord appears to want to do.

Go on and read the thing. See what it demands in terms of a referendum. Further on, the Bill gets even better. I implore the two noble Lords who talked about balance to look now at Schedule 1 to the Bill. Its heading is:

“Treaty provisions where amendment removing the need for unanimity, consensus or common accord would attract referendum”.

There are lists under Parts 1 and 2. Look at the list under Part 1, particularly,

“number of, and system for appointing, Commissioners”.

Will we have a referendum in which we go the British public and say, “Do you agree with this system for appointing commissioners, or would you prefer that system for appointing commissioners”? How on earth could you run a campaign on that basis? You could not because the issue is so narrow. You certainly cannot use it as balance.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My noble friend illustrates the matter brilliantly in relation to the extension of powers of the public prosecutor’s office and the issue that we are now discussing. I ask him to contemplate this referendum taking place if the two sides of the coalition were on different sides of the argument and the dialogue that might occur between Nick Clegg and George Osborne, to take a random example. Would not the dialogue in that case be far more vitriolic even than the dialogue that is taking place at the moment if they were talking about the public prosecutor’s office?

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I can promise my noble friend one thing: if such a referendum were to take place, the turnout would be absolutely minimal. I do not understand how in those circumstances anybody could conceivably rely on that result as providing balance vis-à-vis the argument that the European Community is at the moment unpopular and deserves to become more popular.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Richard]

With respect, I have given way a great deal. If the noble Lord will let me make progress, I will give way later.

Part 2 of Schedule 1 is even better. There is a whole page of it—35 lines—referring to, for example,

“police co-operation … cross-border operation by competent authorities … harmonisation of indirect taxes … broad guidelines of economic policies … conferral on European Central Bank of specific tasks … measures on working conditions”.

All these issues are there for the purpose of achieving balance, according to the two noble Lords who spoke. Is it conceivable that you can have referenda on any of these issues and properly consult the people of the United Kingdom? You cannot. To pretend that you can is, frankly, dishonest.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord because I would have thought that it was perfectly possible to hold a referendum on whether we wanted a European public prosecutor’s office or an extension of its powers, and certainly on the indirect taxes that he mentioned. All these subjects are much closer to the British people’s heart than the referendum that we are about to have on the method by which we send people to Parliament, given that those people cannot do much when they get there, as the powers have been passed to Brussels. I would be perfectly happy to run a campaign against the noble Lord and I can tell him that there would be a big turnout and I would win it.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, all I can say in answer to that—

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords—

[Lord Richard]

With respect, I will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, before giving way to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. The only answer that I can give to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is that his remarks indicate clearly what is wrong with the position of UKIP. If he really believes, as a member and, indeed, as a quasi-leader—I suppose that is what we should call it—of a serious political party in this country, if it is meant to be serious, that we could have a sensible referendum campaign on those issues, that seems to me highly indicative.

[Lord Goodhart]

The noble Lord said that people would be very upset by having a European public prosecutor’s office, but is he aware that the EPPO would deal only with matters of international litigation and would have no effect whatever on any litigation inside the United Kingdom?

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I am sorry that I gave way to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, because he was interrupting the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and that point has nothing to do with me. I am sure that he is right and that we will consider that matter in due course.

Finally, I urge noble Lords to read the Bill before they make up their minds on any of these issues because, frankly, in 45 or 50 years of political activity, I have never read a Bill that I find more distasteful or absurd.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, in light of what the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, said a few moments ago, I seek a little guidance, before we go any further, about taking these amendments with the clause stand part debate, which will be voted on separately. Will the Minister reply to all these amendments and clause stand part together? It would help those of us who are going to speak on the second group of amendments to know in advance what the Minister is proposing to do.

European Union Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. We have debated the amendment for an hour and 41 minutes, of which at least 20 minutes have been in order and an hour and 20 minutes have not been in order. We are supposed to be debating an amendment. It was moved clearly by my noble friend Lord Kerr; indeed, I signed the amendment. It would be novel and helpful in the debate if we could concentrate on the issue, which is very simple and has been set out time and again in this debate. It concerns the effect of Article 48(6) and whether we have to have a referendum if something comes under that. I could go on for a very long time about the evils of referenda on minutiae, which is the great fault of the first part of the Bill, but I will not. It is time that we moved on and heard from the Front Benches.