British Indian Ocean Territory: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. First, having chaired three public companies, I totally agree with my noble friend Lord Agnew’s Amendments 49 and 51, with the exception of subsection (1) of the proposed new clause in Amendment 51. I wonder about it being every three years; that basically means once a Parliament, and I wonder whether every two years would be more appropriate.

Secondly, I ask my noble friend: is there a difference between “foreign” and “worldwide”? Are they coterminous, or not? That is important.

Finally, proposed new paragraph (d) in Amendment 50A says that any authorised corporate service provider registering companies must

“disclose promptly on request from the registrar, or other relevant authorities including local authorities”.

Anyone who has been in local government or the chair of a major committee would like that to be a little more specific; otherwise, it opens the door to arbitration and legal matters as to whether the person making the representations is “relevant”.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 54 and those of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. I will be fairly brief, as this is an extremely unusual situation in that I agree with everything that has been said from all sides of the Committee. I will simply set out a couple of extra points.

I pick up particularly the points from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that journalists, campaigners and groups such as Transparency International have frequently and very bravely—at considerable financial and other risk to themselves—helped to uncover the situation that we have with the London laundromat, the centre of global corruption or whatever you call it. Many labels have been applied. These amendments, particularly Amendment 54, open this up so that people such as those can see and examine what is happening. We can see that the regulators have failed utterly to provide the sorts of checks that they should, and transparency at least enables NGOs, campaigners and others to do what should be the regulators’ work for them.

I would like to see Companies House not relying on any independent certification practices but doing its own checks. However, I acknowledge that the practical reality of that would require an enormous institutional set-up. You might ask who would pay for that. I say that, if you are going to benefit from being a limited liability company, the costs should cover it fully—but I can see that that is not going to happen. As it is not, the best possible thing is at least to make sure that these authorised corporate service providers are open to scrutiny from others.

We must not forget that we are asking those that have been the enablers of corruption, fraud and sheer robbery to become the enforcers. That is what we are doing now—asking the poachers to become gamekeepers, in more traditional terms. That carries a high level of risk. Your Lordships’ Committee has a huge responsibility to do everything we can to make sure that we have full oversight of that.

I will comment briefly on Amendment 51A in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and others. It takes a risk-based approach in looking at the many industries we have that have huge problems. Some are identified here; the situation with car washes is a clear one. A recent study by Nottingham Trent University showed that only 11% of workers in hand car washes were getting payslips, which is the most basic arrangement to enable you to see what is going on. Not even that is happening there.

We have a huge problem in many sectors of our society. Just a couple of weeks ago, Farmers Weekly exposed huge levels of fraud and, as a result, significant public health risks in our food sector. We know what has happened in the building sector, where local councils, without the resources, have stepped away as we move to self-certification. We have huge problems with standards in that sector. These problems are there and many of them go back to the financial sector. These amendments are crucial to deal with problems right across our economy.

Finally, it sometimes seems like this is all financial, that it is not really related to people’s lives and that it is somehow a victimless crime. The reality is that we are robbing poor people around the world by enabling London to be a centre in which corrupt money is placed. In our own society, we are enabling whole sectors of our economy to be consumed by businesses built on fraud, corruption and the exploitation of workers. I have forgotten which, but a noble Lord opposite said that that makes it difficult or impossible for honest businesspeople to set up, run and thrive.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for not being able to take part at Second Reading.

Amendment 178A, in my name, is about the City of London, where local authority housing functions are carried out by the City of London Corporation through its Court of Common Council. The City is subject to the same member rules governing participation in discussion or voting on local authority housing matters, where a member has a pecuniary interest, as those which apply to councillors of local authorities. These rules are contained in the Localism Act 2011.

The rules include an ability for local authorities to issue dispensations to allow councillors to participate and vote where it is right for them to do so to fulfil their democratic responsibilities. However, this ability to issue dispensation does not apply to the City because an additional provision, contained in what is now Section 618(3) and (4) of the Housing Act 1985, bans City members outright from voting on such matters. The contravention of this ban constitutes a criminal offence.

The history of the Housing Act provisions have been examined by the City’s law officers and discussed with officials, but their origin remains unexplained. They have simply been repeated without comment in successive consolidations of housing legislation over the years. My amendment seeks to address this anomaly by removing them. This will make the City of London subject to the same regime as local authorities. It is clearly only right that City residents should have the same entitlement to be represented in housing matters as applies elsewhere. I hope that my noble friend will agree. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, with apologies, and being aware of the hour, I will be brief. I oppose in the strongest terms the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby.

The City of London is the last rotten borough. The elections to the City of London can in no way be described as democratic. There is also the City of London cache, a massive fund amassed over many centuries and explicitly excluded from freedom of information. The last figure that I have, from 2012, is of a £100 million per year income.

The rights of the City of London go back to William the Conqueror, who said that he would maintain all the rights and privileges that the citizens had hitherto enjoyed. It is about time that we finally modernised and got past that. In 1894, it was recommended by a royal commission that the City of London Corporation be abolished. I put on the record my desire to work with any noble Lord who wishes finally to reach that obvious conclusion.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, as my noble friend has explained, Amendment 178A seeks to remove voting restrictions on either housing issues or related planning decisions applying uniquely to members of the common council of the City of London who are also tenants of the City of London Corporation. Sections 618(3) and (4) of the Housing Act 1985 mean that, while an individual can be a councillor of the City of London if they are a housing tenant of the corporation, they cannot apply for a dispensation to vote on housing or related planning decisions. Voting in breach of Section 618 is a criminal offence. This is not dissimilar to the regime that applies under the Localism Act 2011 which also creates a criminal offence where a member fails, without reasonable excuse, to comply with the requirements to declare their disposable pecuniary interests, and takes part in council meetings.

Councillors in any authority elsewhere in England, operating under the disposable pecuniary interest regime in the Localism Act 2011, can apply for a dispensation to vote on matters where they have a declared interest—but there is no such discretion for the City of London to grant a dispensation where Section 618 applies. In short, this means that City of London councillors are being treated differently from all other councillors in England. I am aware that the City of London has raised the issue on previous occasions. I am grateful to my noble friend for his amendment. Between now and Report, I undertake to give the matter proper consideration and would be happy to arrange a discussion with my noble friend if he would find this helpful.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Monday 13th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak broadly in support of these amendments, starting with Amendment 202. The incidence of fraud is growing almost daily. It is a huge worry and, unfortunately, it rests on His Majesty’s Government to try to find an answer to it. I accept that it is not an easy problem, but we cannot shy away from it. Over lunch today I was having some discussions with Transparency Task Force, a certified social enterprise. Certainly, some of the evidence it has is quite extraordinary and deeply worrying. I do not know whether there are other types of scams not covered in the Bill. I have not given any notice to my noble friend on that, but we would certainly like an answer.

On Amendment 203 on qualifying cases, I have spoken to only about half a dozen people who have had scams, but none of them knew anything about who was behind it. It is not very likely, is it? Having watched “The Gold” on television on Sunday, I can see how creative some people can be. It does not seem realistic, which is why Amendment 203 is important.

I have had a chat with members of the All-Party Group on Personal Banking and Fairer Financial Services. The only way to get a grip of these problems is to know what is happening on the ground. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, asked for a six-monthly report, which is quite right. A quarterly report would probably be better, though it might be too tedious. At this point in time, His Majesty’s Government do not have a handle on the rate of growth, which is deeply worrying. I do not know whether these amendments are exactly right, but the problem is there, and it is the responsibility of His Majesty’s Government to get a grip on them.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, I broadly support this group of amendments. I particularly want to address Amendment 205 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles.

As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said, it is worth highlighting uncertainty and trauma. We have a society in which every time people pick up their phones or emails to look at a message, many of them think, “I’m worried. Is this right or wrong? Is this official-looking email something I should click or not?” That is where we are. These amendments seek to address some of this, although even with them we would not get far enough. In the other place, the Treasury Select Committee last month expressed concerns about the Payment Systems Regulator dealing with push payment scams regarding the banks handing out the money and controlling the Pay.UK body that would be doing that. There is a concern that this needs to be seen as fair and rapid; to take away some of that fear is the key issue.

Amendment 205 is particularly interesting because we are talking here about a league table for how fairly banks treat victims of fraud. I could not help thinking of the comparison with schools. We have intensely scrutinised and detailed league tables for schools; surely we can manage similar league tables for banks. We had a lot of debate on earlier days in Committee on whether we wish to encourage competitiveness. But however much we might debate competitiveness, surely we all agree that competition between banks to see who is fairest towards victims of crime would be good.

This may not go far enough, but there are amendments here that the Government should certainly consider, particularly Amendment 205 concerning the league table.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton. Since the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, appeared to be directing a question at me about whether I oppose fossil fuels, I will take a moment to answer that. Do I think that pulling up carbon which has been stored in the ground over hundreds of millions of years, which was a crucial part of delivering the Holocene that gave us 10,000 years of incredibly stable climate in historic terms, and then pumping it into the atmosphere needs to be stopped with great speed? Yes, I oppose pumping out that stored carbon.

More than that, the fact is that extracting, transporting, burning and getting rid of the waste products from that fossil fuel causes huge damage to the health of people on this planet. One in five premature deaths that occur on this planet is as a result of burning fossil fuels—that is based on a study in environmental health in 2021. So do I want to do something urgently to make this a healthier planet for people? Yes, I do. However, that is not what any of these amendments are about. These amendments are to the Financial Services and Markets Bill, and all of them are about trying to stop the crashing of the financial markets, which are also crucial to our security and health in different kinds of ways. That is what all these amendments address.

It is really interesting that we have here a set of amendments which we might, collectively, for the purposes of Committee look at how we can hone and shape—I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. But what we have in Amendment 168 are directions to the PRA to review capital adequacy requirements. That is about the security of firms. In Amendment 201, we have directions to the FCA to direct personal pension providers. Picking up on that point, I note the figures from the Pensions Regulator’s most recent survey of defined contribution schemes, which found that more than 80% did not allocate any time or resources to managing climate risk.

Then in Amendment 233, we have sustainable disclosure requirements, so that companies would report to investors what risks they are taking with their money by not dealing with all the sustainability risks which relate to the fact that we are exceeding planetary boundaries—not just on climate but on biodiversity, the loss of ecosystems and novel entities, and on phosphate geochemical flows. All these things are taking risks with people’s money, which is what we are talking about. Amendment 233 might indeed guide us in the direction of each major company having to have a chief environmental officer, who should be of equal status and importance to a chief financial officer because it is about ensuring the sustainability of the company, as well as the sustainability of this earth. Going on to Amendment 235, we are directing the Treasury to provide government guidance on how we achieve all of this.

That is an overview but I want to pick up one specific point. I would have signed Amendment 119, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, and others in a full cross-party group, had there been space. When people think about forest risk commodities, they often start by thinking, naturally enough, about timber but, if we look at some statistics, palm, beef and soya production collectively amount to 36% of global deforestation. When Orbitas, an investment body, surveyed 24 capital providers in 2020, all of which had high levels of tropical commodity exposure, not one had screened their loan books and/or investments for agricultural transition risks. I want to major on that point while we debate this today, because if we look at Indonesia, 76% of unplanted forest concessions and 15% of existing palm oil assets could be at risk—that is, financial risk—should Indonesia adopt what is seen as its essential plans to meet its Paris climate commitments.

I said that we need to look at all aspects of planetary boundaries being exceeded. We also must include water risk. Fresh water supplies rely heavy on fossil water aquifers—in the American high plains, in Mexico, in eastern Europe, in Egypt, in Arabia, Iran and China. All agricultural production of food—the big sectors globally and financially—is utterly dependent on fresh water supplies, which are not being replenished. That is a huge financial risk as well as a risk to when any of us can eat in the future, at a basic level.

Finally, I focus on Amendment 168, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Worthington, Lady Drake and Lady Sheehan. I would like to work with them ahead of Report because, as others have highlighted, this focuses particularly, though not exclusively, as the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, on fossil fuel exploration, exploitation and production. We must broaden this out to look at the agricultural sector, because it is an area of enormous financial risk. I draw on the work of the investment group FAIRR, which looks at the extremely high financial risks. The majority of the largest protein producer companies are at high risk for greenhouse gas emissions, deforestation, water and waste. Over 60% of them saw soya feed from areas at high risk of deforestation and have still not set deforestation targets. Fewer than one in five meat, egg and dairy firms is adequately managing the pollution of waterways from manure. Just ask the people of Herefordshire about that if you want to know more.

FAIRR finds that the volume of waste produced by the 70 billion animals processed each year is equivalent to the volume of waste produced by twice the entire human population on this planet. Only 18% of global meat and dairy producers track even partial methane emissions, even though annual methane emissions from global capital and livestock make up 44% of anthropogenic methane emissions.

We are talking about the future of our life on this planet. We are talking about a liveable planet. That is inescapable. However, today we are talking about ensuring that we do not see the next financial crash. Let us remember the last financial crash, when the cash machines were within hours of stopping working. We must do something to stop the next financial crash from being at the point where the size of the carbon bubble, the level of stranded assets across a range of sectors—fossil fuels, animal agriculture and other areas—is such that it suddenly hits the markets. The markets are not counting this now. They must count this in if we are to have a sustainable financial sector.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I will not repeat what my noble friend Lord Lilley said earlier, other than to say, speaking for myself and, I suspect, for my colleagues, that we do believe in net zero. That is a target. It is not an immediate diktat, but it is a target that I guess almost everybody in Parliament has accepted.

My noble friend is right that key in the judgment of those of us who have worked in the commercial sector, as I did before I came to Parliament nearly 50 years ago, is that we live in a free society. The answer to this problem is to phase out demand. It is easier to phase out demand than to phase out supply. If they both have the same effect in the end, you might as well take the easier and cheaper route, which does not involve subsidy to remove activity. We live in a free society and unless it is absolutely vital, it should be based not on government diktat, but on competition.

I will also comment on Amendment 199 on forestry. I had better declare an interest; it is hardly a forest, but there are 40 acres of woodland adjacent to my property. It is a wonderful hobby for me to have become someone who now understands woodland, at least; I could not claim that it is a forest.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Report stage
Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and her—as always—expert contribution, which has made me think again about that amendment. I put my name down for this group chiefly to speak to Amendment 27, in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, also signed by the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, and me. The reasons for this amendment have been broadly canvassed, notably by the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, well known for Peers for Gambling Reform, which I was recently pleased to join. I do not feel that I need to make this case again, but there is a useful reflection to make—drawing also on what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, just said, and sharing the frustration of the noble Lord, Lord Addington—about how, in this group of apparently disparate amendments, we see a real problem in the nature of our lawmaking in the difficulty of making progress. What we have here, as we had earlier with the sharia-compliant student loan, are apparently small, easily fixed issues, on which some very expert, knowledgeable, extremely capable people have spent years working, without progress being made. This particularly applies to Amendment 16 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. Something clearly needs to be tackled and dealt with, and it looks simple; we need to see regulation, oversight and protection, but it is not happening.

In the interstices of what has been a rather hectic day for me, I was looking at the Law Society briefing for the National Security and Investment Bill, which is coming tomorrow. The Law Society does not have any party-political issues to raise on that, but it has looked at the Bill and has seen that we are creating huge problems. Somehow, our legislative process is not identifying issues. With commendable frankness, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, earlier identified his role on the issue that arises in Amendment 37C. Somehow, things are not coming together and delivering us workable laws. We need to think, as a House and as a society, about how we can end up getting more workable laws. I suggest that we need more co-operation, listening and input at the early stages, rather than a sudden decision by the Government to do something, which then results in a Bill.

We are not sure that there will be any votes on any of these amendments, but we clearly need action and I commend to your Lordships’ House the need for action on all of these, particularly Amendment 27, to protect vulnerable people.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, Amendment 37C is an issue of fundamental importance to young people who are disabled and have taken up child trust funds. The amendment before us is key. We had a thorough and competent speech from my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, but I have just listened to another speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and we have to find common ground between the two.

I declare a past interest as, when I joined the Commons in February 1974, I took an interest in the friendly society movement, which I continued until I left in 1997. I was then asked to become chairman, which I was from 1998 to 2005, of the Tunbridge Wells Equitable Friendly Society. That interest was declared at that point. In the days of the child trust fund, the Tunbridge Wells Equitable Friendly Society traded under the brand of the Children’s Mutual. It is my recollection that the Children’s Mutual was a brand leader, and we put a huge amount of effort into it. We liaised with the authorities involved at the time—not just the Government of the day but others. I am saddened and disappointed that, somehow or other, this issue got through the net. Unfortunately, the coalition Government tragically decided—George Osborne was one of the key players, of course—to wind it up. That was a great error, in my judgment.

We come to the current position, and I am pleased to hear the industry’s concerns, but I am disappointed that there has been no mention of the Association of Friendly Societies. I am sure that the majority of child trust funds were sold by the friendly societies, and I would advise those involved to make sure that the Association of Friendly Societies is involved now. On my own initiative, I will contact the Tunbridge Wells Equitable Friendly Society to suggest that it helps and is involved.

I am not sure why we have the same problem with junior ISAs. I declare an interest here, because I contribute to the junior ISAs of my four grandchildren, who are eligible. I am disappointed, although I was not involved in the legislation on junior ISAs in depth, that the same problem appears. I do not want to add to the concerns of my noble friend on the Front Bench, but, until recently, a large number of grandparents had been buying National Savings certificates, and I wonder whether the same problem is lying there and has not been raised by anybody else.

This is a serious problem. I have faith in my noble friend on the Front Bench, and I hope that he and those involved will look at it seriously. If there is anything that I can do to help resolve this issue, I will do my best to, because it is important.

National Security and Investment Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I shall be very brief. I am full of admiration for my dear noble friend Lady Noakes for the thoroughness with which she has trawled through the Bill and these particular aspects. I have been in and have knowledge of a situation of a mandatory notice—I make no comment on the other aspect—and my noble friend is absolutely right: we need certainty in life. Whether five working days is the appropriate length of time I personally am not able to judge, but it seems entirely reasonable, and if its sponsors and their experienced colleagues from the City believe in it, I am more than happy to go with it. It does not seem to allow for any wriggle room; the worst thing in politics and making law is to allow for wriggle room, so I am absolutely behind Amendment 49.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, outlined very clearly what this group is about. She may not be entirely surprised that I am coming from the opposite angle, although we can perhaps agree that this is a question of balancing public good—making decisions about national security—versus private profit and convenience. The financial and other implications that might arise from more time being taken over whether or not to progress are weighed against both the chance of missing something important and using significant public resources, making a fuller assessment unnecessary.

I am here, rather unusually, to defend the Bill against the amendments. Broadly, in this debate we have heard a great deal of uncertainty about how the Bill, once enacted, will work: how the details will play out in practice, how many firms will be involved and what resources will be required. I am not sure how five days was arrived at as a firm deadline, given that there is such uncertainty about the actual operation of the Bill. As it currently stands, deciding whether to accept a mandatory notification should take as long as it takes; it should not be subject to an arbitrary—a very short —deadline.

Agriculture Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 15th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge. I offer the Green group’s support for Amendment 2 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Devon. My noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb will speak on other amendments, so I shall confine myself to this one. Amendment 2 has multiple benefits. As the noble Earl explained, it would improve the clarity of the Bill, with “health and wellbeing” being measurable and quantifiable terms rather than the—if I may say so—rather woolly drafting of “enjoyment”.

This also helps us to come to terms with the rest of the debate and to set out clearly what the Bill is trying to achieve. We need our countryside to provide multiple services for us. In terms of our health and well-being, we need a great improvement from our present diet, to one packed with fruit and vegetables. We also need widespread broadly available leisure opportunities, and we need to look after the health and well-being of the natural world so that it can maintain biodiversity and bio-abundance, store carbon, prevent flooding, provide clean water, et cetera.

The economy is a complete sub-set of the environment, and ours is in a parlous state, as the RSPB reminded us this week with its reflections on our “lost decade for nature”. There is a context to the Bill involving contesting views, summed up as “sparing versus sharing”. The idea behind sparing is that we trash much of the land—the soils, the biodiversity and the waters—but we leave some of it, in its still surviving or restored state, as pristine as possible. Spare some, and the devil—or the agrochemical companies—take the rest.

Sharing involves looking after all our land—the soils, the wildlife, the air and the water. Those are things that everybody needs around them all the time for health and well-being—rural and town residents, visitors, and those who eat the food that comes from them. That is, as the noble Earl’s amendment says, for their health and well-being. An occasional visit to a specially protected treasured area will not deliver health and well-being if the rest of our countryside is trashed.

When we reach Amendment 78 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and consider the damage done by pesticide application, this will all come into acute focus. Amendment 2 gives us a chance, in the early stages of the Bill, at the start of today’s debates, to set out a crucial understanding of how our health and well-being, and our future, depend on looking after every inch of our environment. If we live in a healthy land, we will have a healthy society.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

I too thank the Minister for the timeliness and succinctness of the brief we have received. As we will be on this subject for a while, I had better declare an interest, in that I own woodland, which is managed by a professional and with the agreement of the Forestry Commission. And if anything comes up about horticulture, Bedfordshire is part of the heart of the horticultural world, so I will be interested in that.

We should pay tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Devon. I too worried about “enjoyment” for a while and wrestled with it but could not think of anything better at the time. Then I found that he had produced something very helpful, which gives precision. In law, precision is very important, so I hope the Minister will consider it.

I say that particularly because I happen to have some footpaths close to where I live and, as my noble friend will be aware, there is a new hobby of flying drones, which is not necessarily for the enjoyment of anybody other than the person flying the drone. Certainly, if people are walking along a footpath and find somebody else in the middle of the path flying a drone—which is allegedly, but not actually, flying within sight—that is not to the enjoyment of anyone at all.

On Amendment 4, which is the other one that caught my eye, there is no doubt that “accessibility” is vital. There cannot be a Member of your Lordships’ House who has not taken a walk along a footpath and found either a stile broken, something overgrown or another hazard that has appeared, so it is vital. I am slightly worried, though, in that some years ago I experienced that a section of the “rambling community” had gone back to the original maps showing where the closed footpaths were. Those had been closed whenever it was, legally et cetera, but there was then a move to open them up again. There may be a case for opening some of them, but it seems to me that that campaign does not fit with what we require today. However, I come back to the point that accessibility is vital. New public access is much more difficult in today’s world, and I think one has to tread very carefully in that area.