Massereene Barracks Shooting 2009
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Lammy
The family has drawn some comfort from the warmth of feeling that they have received from the community. The hon. Lady’s comments are well made.
The second issue that I would like to raise is the quality of the prosecution’s case during the subsequent trials. The work carried out by Forensic Science Northern Ireland and crime scene officers was incredibly poor. The collection of evidence was especially sloppy, and the performance of forensic experts in the witness box was woeful.
Two men, Brian Shivers and Colin Duffy, were prosecuted for the murders. Colin Duffy is a dissident republican who had previously been linked to the murder of another soldier, John Lyness, in 1995, and the murders of two police constables in 1997. His DNA was found on a seatbelt buckle and in the tip of a latex glove in the burned-out getaway car that was used in the attack. He was surely involved. Nevertheless, he was acquitted at trial. Since then, he has been arrested in connection with the murder of prison officer David Black and charged with terrorism offences. Brian Shivers aided and abetted the murders by setting fire to the getaway car. He was originally found guilty of the murders and sentenced to 25 years in prison.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
This ghastly incident happened in my constituency. I assure the right hon. Gentleman and the families that my constituents continue to express their love and support for the families who have gone through this tragedy.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Mr Shivers, who is one of my next door neighbours. He told the court that he had only a few months to live. Those few months seem to have greatly increased, for he is still running around the town, seemingly in the full bloom of health. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that no stone should be left unturned until those who perpetrated this ghastly, brutal murder are brought to justice? That is the only thing the people in my constituency will support. Justice must be done.
Mr Lammy
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the way he put his remarks. I know the family have drawn some comfort from the strength of feeling in the community that justice must be done. In 2013, the conviction of Shivers was overturned by Northern Ireland’s appeal court, and he was freed following a retrial. He claimed that he had been set up and that the forensic evidence had been planted.
Forensic Science Northern Ireland and the crime scene officers made a number of careless mistakes that undermined the prosecution’s case. The getaway car was found, partly burned, containing bullets of the calibre used in the attack, two mobile phones, balaclavas, a camouflage holdall and matchsticks. DNA evidence was found on the matchsticks, in the car and on the phones. One of the phones was found to have received an answerphone message congratulating the murderers on their work.
Hallett Review
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
The dirty deal done between the previous Government and Sinn Fein was underhand, and an insult to victims and to all democrats in Northern Ireland. Does the Secretary of State therefore accept that a deep hurt is felt by victims and that the only way to ensure it does not continue is by ensuring that these letters are withdrawn?
Mrs Villiers
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I will take whatever steps are necessary to remove barriers to prosecution, based on the advice I am given by police and prosecutors. We will do everything possible to ensure that we do not see a repeat of the collapse of the Downey trial in another instance.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that it is important that we move towards shared and integrated education where the parents wish that that should happen. He will know from the pact, and from the update that is to be published shortly, that £100 million of additional borrowing has been made available as part of that pact for shared education and shared housing, both of which will be of help.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
When the Secretary of State meets and has further discussions with the Minister for Education in Northern Ireland, will she ask him to expedite the digging of the first sod of the Parkhall integrated college in Antrim as soon as possible, because that new build has been announced for some time, and the staff, pupils and community are anxious for the work to commence right away?
Dr Murrison
Through the noise I think I just about made that out, Mr Speaker. I am sure that Hansard will record it accurately and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will take note of it for her next meeting with the Minister for Education.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
What came across clearly was that many victims wanted the possibility of justice. I think they would accept that in many cases that is going to be difficult to achieve, but it would be unacceptable to introduce an amnesty and deprive victims of any hope of receiving justice.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
6. What assessment she has made of the current security situation in Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
The threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe, with persistent planning and targeting by terrorists. However, action by the PSNI and its partners continues to keep the pressure on these terrorist groups, greatly constraining their ability to carry out their lethal objectives.
Dr McCrea
Will the Secretary of State confirm that those terrorists who received a royal pardon, including Liam Averill, did so as a reward for giving vital information to the security forces? As well as other, overt activity to defeat the threat of terrorism, will she confirm that the security services have infiltrated, and will infiltrate, dissident republican terrorist cells, as they successfully did to defeat the Provisional IRA, using high-profile informants without royal pardons?
Mrs Villiers
As I said in response to the earlier question on the use of agents and informants, it is not the Government’s practice to comment on such operational matters. However, I can give the hon. Gentleman the reassurance that the PSNI and its partners in the Security Service are working incredibly hard to do everything they can to combat these terrorists and have had a number of successes, not least with recent arrests of leading figures in the dissident republican groupings.
High Court Judgment (John Downey)
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Campbell
I thank the hon. Lady for that very enlightening quotation, which simply proves the point that what unites people right across Northern Ireland—with the exception of those who used to advocate violence and excuse or defend it—is that we are all rightly appalled at the secret nature of the scheme.
It has also been said—others have alluded to this—that members of the Policing Board were in some way briefed, but when we examine the record, we see that no one was ever briefed on such an administrative scheme. Of course, everyone knew that there was an outstanding issue with on-the-runs. There were those who said, “This matter must be resolved,” and those of us who were determined to say, “If it comes before Parliament and there is any possibility of us having some input into a resolution that means giving people immunity for what they have done in the past, we will resolutely oppose it.” That much is absolutely clear.
Others have mentioned the Eames-Bradley report, and the fact that one of its authors, Mr Bradley, said that people knew about the scheme. However, when we look into the matter, it is absolutely clear to us that, whoever may have been informed privately, no one was informed publicly. There was no public reference whatsoever to a scheme of this nature.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
It might be interesting to find out when Mr Bradley himself knew, and who told him.
Mr Campbell
Yes, indeed. I understand that Mr Bradley, who is the former vice-chairman of the Policing Board, said that the issue had been brought before the board. In fact, he had left the board at that stage.
Let me now turn to the question of intent, which is the very kernel of the issue. What was the intent of the administration that initiated the scheme, and what was the intent of the administration that continued it? What was the intent of those who were sending the letters, and what were the perception and understanding of the recipients? That is the key to the entire matter.
It is abundantly clear to everyone that the intent of the letters was to reassure people who might have believed—for a reason that we all understand—that there were circumstances in which, if they either came back to Northern Ireland or were approached by an officer of the law in another jurisdiction in which they happened to be, they could at some point in the future be made accountable for crimes in which they were suspected of having been involved. It is clear that they believed that the letters made them immune from that, and believed that they would be protected or sheltered in some way from the investigation of actions with which they had been associated in the past. For that very reason, Sinn Fein was quite happy to be the messenger of the tidings that would have been brought to the recipients of those letters.
It has been said—this was mentioned by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), who has had to leave the Chamber—that when news of the Downey case broke, disillusionment in some sections of the Unionist community became more apparent. I have a very different view. All that the Downey case did was crystallise some of the disillusionment that had been apparent for a number of years in sections of the Unionist community, and bring it into public focus. Unfortunately, we now have to try to repair the damage that the Downey judgment has done, along with a series of other issues.
The underlying principle is that those who supported terror in the past have used the potential of a return to violence as a bargaining chip, and not for the first time. Many of us believe that during the negotiations leading to and following the Belfast agreement, and, undoubtedly, during the negotiations relating to the administrative scheme, there was always the spectre—the prospect—that if this was not agreed to, violence could, unfortunately, return. Our view is very clear, and it is that we cannot be held to ransom by people who make threats or insinuations that bad times could return.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
The revelation that has emerged about the so-called on-the-runs administrative scheme demonstrates that the previous Government committed a monstrous betrayal of the rights of many of their own citizens. They actively conspired with Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Provisional IRA, to deny hundreds of UK citizens the prospect of ever seeing justice for their relatives who had been murdered or injured as part of the terrorist campaign waged by the IRA in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain.
If it achieved nothing else, the collapse of the trial of Mr John Downey at least brought into the open the nefarious plot that our own Government had a hand in. It is now time to establish the full and complete truth about this scheme—who started it, who knew about it, and what other agencies were implicated in it. There are now no fewer than four separate inquiries of different natures taking place into this scheme. I welcome each and every one and believe that they can complement each other.
Before we progress to some of the details about this issue, it is worth looking at first principles. When they were elected to office in 1997, the Labour Government headed by Tony Blair vowed to be the most open and transparent Government that the country had ever had. To that end, they introduced, among other things, the Freedom of Information Act 2000, which was designed to ensure that, within the limits of data protection and national security, people would be able to scrutinise the work of those who governed them. It is contrary to that commitment to openness and transparency that no Government Minister ever saw fit to come to this House to inform Members of a dirty deal that was going on with Sinn Fein-IRA. It is at variance with the other actions of previous Governments in opening up Government to public accountability that they would keep such an important matter hidden from the scrutiny not only of this House but of Her Majesty’s Opposition and all the Northern Ireland parties—except, of course, Sinn Fein.
This raises an important political point. In Northern Ireland, progress is dependent on the mutual consent of both the major traditions that exist within our community. Despite the fact that there has been a consistent and vast majority in support of the Union throughout the duration of the troubles in Northern Ireland, Unionists recognise the necessity of finding accommodation with those who hold to the minority viewpoint with regard to Ulster’s constitutional position. In that context, the fact that the Government connived behind the backs of the Unionist community to deliver the scheme was bad enough, but their action also represented a betrayal of the constitutional nationalist tradition in Northern Ireland.
The Government acted in a secretive and one-sided fashion because they knew that had the details of this scheme been made public, they would not have been able to carry with them this House or the greater number of people from the Unionist and the nationalist backgrounds in Northern Ireland. They knew that they were doing wrong, and that is why they tried to hide their actions from everyone, except themselves as a Government and Sinn Fein. The Bible says:
“The wicked flee when no man pursueth”,
and that seems apt today. The Government fled from scrutiny but no one pursued because they tried to hide what they were doing—yet this sordid deal could not remain hidden for ever.
The secret scheme whereby one political party submitted names of individuals who were on the run to receive so-called comfort letters was not merely immoral but represented a subversion of justice and made a mockery of the rule of law. When clear and direct questions were asked previously, including of senior Ministers, we were not told about the scheme. For example, in October 2006, when we asked in the House whether such a procedure existed, we were told:
“There is no other procedure.”—[Official Report, 11 October 2006; Vol. 450, c. 290.]
On 1 March 2007, the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) asked
“what measures the Government are considering to deal with ‘on the runs’ other than further legislation or an amnesty.”—[Official Report, 1 March 2007; Vol. 457, c. 1462W.]
The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) replied: “None.” That one-word answer raises a serious question about the veracity of the then Government’s position. It is therefore right to establish whether the House of Commons has been deceived. We need to have the truth.
As I have said, different inquiries are looking into this matter and each complements the other. It is vital that together they exhaustively examine all the relevant information and question all the relevant people. It is now apparent that there were no lengths to which the Blair Administration would not go in the interests of political expediency. Those who carried out some of the most heinous crimes must never be allowed to escape responsibility for the suffering they caused. The victims of those crimes cannot escape their pain and they should have the right to bring the perpetrators to justice. The outcome of the Downey case was morally wrong. No one should be beyond the law.
Lady Hermon
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. Although tributes have rightly been paid by Members on both sides of the House to the victims of the Hyde Park bombing in 1982—I add my condolences to those families and friends who lost loved ones—it is right to put it on the record that Mr Downey, who walked out of the Old Bailey, was suspected of involvement in not only the Hyde park bombing but the Enniskillen bombing, in which many people lost their lives and many others were injured, and the murder of two members of the Ulster Defence Regiment who served gallantly in Northern Ireland.
Dr McCrea
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and I agree wholeheartedly with everything she said. The shadow over this debate is that of not only the Hyde park bombing but every other atrocity that was carried out during the campaign throughout the United Kingdom. There was no justification for the campaign of terror and no justification for the slaughter of the innocent. This House ought to once again unreservedly condemn the actions of the IRA and those who brought sorrow and grief to the United Kingdom for so many years. One thing about the Downey case is that, thankfully, it has exposed all those others who received what they believed to be letters of comfort, and I would suggest that he is probably not their favourite cousin.
I realise that I have to draw my remarks to a close. If someone is on the run, I want them to fear the police, the courts and the rule of law. I want them to fear the fact that one day justice may catch up with them. I can assure them today that if it does not catch up with them here on this earth, they will stand before God, whether they believe in Him or not, and face His judgment and wrath.
In the aftermath of the Downey case judgment, the Secretary of State said:
“We will take whatever steps are necessary to make clear to all recipients of letters arising from the administrative scheme, in a manner that will satisfy the courts and the public, that any letters issued cannot be relied upon to avoid questioning or prosecution for offences where information or evidence becomes available now or later.”—[Official Report, 28 February 2014; Vol. 576, c. 39WS.]
The Democratic Unionist party will insist that the Government follow up those words with concrete action.
Finally, the royal prerogative of mercy has been mentioned. I have lived for the past nearly 50 years in a community that went through the nightmare of terrorism. South Londonderry used to be the killing fields of IRA murders in our Province. I gathered with many widows and many children down those years, as I did with my own family, grieving and sorrowing over the passing of our loved ones. When I hear that the likes of Liam Averill—a murderer in my community—is supposed to have received the royal prerogative of mercy, that is absolutely disgusting. It is laughable in a certain way that the big provo hero crawls to Her Majesty to get a royal prerogative of mercy, but it is also disgusting and sickening. I would like to know who advanced his name and who advised Her Majesty to execute the royal prerogative of mercy for the likes of the murdering thug Liam Averill. I would also like to know the names of the others who received the royal prerogative of mercy, because I can assure the House that there was no mercy from the provos for my family and the other families in Northern Ireland who suffered grief and who to this day continue to suffer heartbreak at the loss of their loved ones.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I take the Floor greatly honoured to take part in the debate. I am always proud to represent my constituency in what is often called the greatest seat of democracy in the world, but today I have no pride in what has happened. I stand ashamed to learn what has been done by the previous Government and continued by the present Government.
I stood in this House in 2012 and raised the issue of why there had been no prosecution of Gerry McMonagle who, despite the overwhelming evidence, has never been tried for his crimes despite coming into Northern Ireland many times over the past number of years. As a result of what has happened in the past few months, I believe I know the reason.
In the Adjournment debate in this House at that time on the subject of Lexie Cummings, attended by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and the shadow Secretary of State, I said:
“The family visit the grave of a true gentleman, Lexie Cummings, with questions in their minds and grief in their hearts. Who can answer their questions and give them closure? Questions must be answered, because the family cannot forget that Lexie Cummings was a good man and worthy of justice. They know that for a reason unknown to them, someone has seen fit to give an unrepentant republican murderer the opportunity to parade around, with no fear of justice, in his mayoral robes. That is cruelty in the extreme, and I am here today to ask for parity in the help provided to that family and others so that they can have closure“.
They deserve closure. I also said:
“It was an open-and-shut case, and yet questions must be answered. Why did William Gerard McMonagle not stand trial for the murder of Lexie Cummings? How was it that William Gerard McMonagle was allowed to travel across the border to safety and freedom, and to begin a new life, which has led to him being the mayor of Letterkenny today? Why was he never extradited, when it was known where he was? Why was there no co-operation between the Garda Siochana and the RUC to bring McMonagle to justice?”—[Official Report, 7 March 2012; Vol. 541, c. 980-81.]
Let me outline the case. In 1982, McMonagle was summoned to court to answer to the murder of Lexie Cummings. There was a mistake in the summons, and in the time that it took the RUC to get it corrected and bring it back, he walked out of court, walked across the border and never came back. I drew attention to the matter during my Adjournment debate in 2012 and also had an opportunity to speak to my colleague, Jonathan Craig, a Member of the Legislative Assembly who is also a member of the Policing Board. I asked him to make inquiries on my behalf. I believe that there is an evidential case to be answered by this gentleman for what he did and for the murder of Lexie Cummings.
I want to know why that happened, and what steps have been taken. It would be great to get an answer from the Secretary of State, because the former Minister of State answered in a non-committal way on that night, as some Members will remember. I believe that it was all down to a dirty backroom deal that began under Blair but was perpetuated by this Government. It gives me no satisfaction whatsoever to say that, but that is the way I see it. It was a deal in which unrepentant terrorist murderers were offered amnesty and even a royal pardon from the very royal family that they despised and wanted to kill—and, indeed, did kill in the case of Lord Mountbatten.
That is a bitter pill to swallow when I think of how proud people in Northern Ireland are to see their Queen and of the Jubilee visits during which Protestants and Catholics lined up for hours to catch a glimpse and show their respect. These men had vowed to destroy the monarchy and yet were more than pleased to get their hands on a royal prerogative pardon as facilitated by the Northern Ireland Office and the Secretary of State to wash away the repercussions of their disgusting crimes.
Dr McCrea
It is interesting that the said Liam Averill, who got the royal pardon, was back in court in Londonderry just a month ago, not for any of his crimes under the Terrorism Acts, but for charges related to drinking and driving a vehicle under the influence. The judge on the bench fined him £200, but of course he said he did not have £200. The judge said, “How much have you in your pocket?” He said, “I have £30.” “Right, I will change the £200 to £30.” Is that justice?
Jim Shannon
It most definitely is not, and everyone in this House would endorse that. It is an example of more salt being put in people’s wounds
There can be no earthly action that can ever wash away this guilt. I am also heartened that in the next world these people will answer for their crimes, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) mentioned earlier.
Sympathies given by a Minister of State about the deaths mean less than nothing to the families of my cousin Kenneth Smyth, murdered by the IRA on 10 September 1970, and Lexie Cummings. They are an insult to their memories and the memories of all the men and women who had their lives snatched away from them by murderers who were then hidden and protected by this Government and the previous Government. Is this democracy? No. Is this moral? No. Is this simply abhorrent and downright wrong? Yes it is. There can be no whataboutery and no justifications or explanations that can satisfy. Apologies have been heard, but they do not make black to be white, wrong to be right, or broken hearts to be mended. Do they rebuild trust? No, they do not do that, either.
In a question to the then Secretary of State in 2011 about the Historical Enquiries Team, I asked:
“The concern is that the investigations might not have been thorough, so does the Secretary of State accept that confidence needs to be instilled in the Unionist community”?—[Official Report, 30 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 919.]
It is little wonder that the then Secretary of State would not agree, because they knew what had happened and what continued to happen on their watch, and they knew that it would not inspire confidence.
You can understand, Madam Deputy Speaker, why we on this side of the House and in this party—and I specifically—have concerns about how the Government have handled the matter. I look forward to the Secretary of State’s response; I hope she can take our points of view on board. I am deeply interested to hear how she will answer them and we look forward to that.
I want to mention a couple of other incidents, because I cannot let this occasion pass without mentioning them. There was the atrocity at La Mon hotel when many people were burnt alive—it is in my constituency. It has been intimated that some of those involved in that have risen to high positions, either in Northern Ireland’s jurisdiction or perhaps in jurisdictions elsewhere, in the Republic of Ireland. Do they have a paper of absolution that lets them get away with what they have done in the past? On behalf of the people in La Mon, I would certainly like to get more details about who has had absolution and how that has worked.
I also think of Ballydugan, where four Ulster Defence Regiment men were murdered. I knew three of those young UDR men personally. Eight people were arrested; they were questioned and then let out. Again, perhaps the Secretary of State can give us some indication of whether any of those eight people had papers of absolution or the “get out of jail free” card. If they had, I will certainly be asking for a re-investigation to be done in relation to them.
Stephen Pound
The hon. Lady appears to be conflating two separate issues. To say that the Labour party, which was in government at the time, does not recant its position with regard to the administrative system in no way implies that people are walking free. People are not walking free. There has been no amnesty. It is crucial that we analyse and use the word “amnesty” with care. The hon. Lady, who is one of the most distinguished educators in Northern Ireland, is exact and precise about the etymology of the words she uses, but the word “amnesty” comes from the Greek word “amnestis”, which simply means forgetfulness—it has the same root as “amnesia”. In the context in which we are using it this afternoon—to mean a potential overlooking—it was so used only in the 16th century.
One of the things that we need to discover—I am sure that the Secretary of State will respond to this when she replies—is whether in the abuse of process there was a creative precedent or any sort of legality that arose from that. It is important, in view of the context and the great significance of this subject, that we are very precise in our language. The Secretary of State has said that there is no amnesty. We need to be precise about that and must certainly return to it.
In response to the hon. Lady’s suggestion, no, I am not seeking to blame the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and nor would I. I hope that she and they will accept my assertion of that fact.
Dr McCrea
If this was an honourable scheme or system, why was it devised behind the backs of the people of Northern Ireland, the politicians of Northern Ireland, and Members of this House; and why did only the friends of Gerry Adams get these letters, why was no loyalist included, and why did no soldier receive any letter of comfort?
Stephen Pound
Let me say, not for the first time, that I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s personal pain, which is felt by everyone in this House. He deserves considerable respect for the courage he has shown in continuing to raise these issues despite such pain.
The answer to the hon. Gentleman is similar to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) when she asked me about reconciling the irreconcilable in connection with the previously quoted comments by the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain). In other words, on the Floor of the House this afternoon I cannot answer the question on the basis of the information that I have been given and of which we are aware. That is partly why the three inquiries are under way, and I hope that they will achieve results. I was not privy to the discussions at the time. My right hon. Friend was, and he has already made a statement. I have made a note in response to the hon. Lady’s extremely potent expression about reconciling the irreconcilable, and I will ask him for the answer, but I regret that I cannot give it on the Floor of the House this afternoon.
Dr McCrea
When the Prime Minister spoke about the inquiry, he said that the eminent judge would review all the letters. It now seems to be some of the letters. Can the Secretary of State confirm that the Prime Minister’s statement takes precedence and that all the letters will be reviewed by the eminent judge?
Mrs Villiers
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. It was of course also raised by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). Let me be clear: Justice Hallett is free to look at all the documents that the Government have and at all the cases. The exchange of correspondence to which the hon. Lady referred was designed to provide an assurance that, because of the limited time available, the judge was not required to conduct a detailed examination of every single case and that it was acceptable to focus on cases in which initial checks indicated there was a problem, as well as a sample of others. Inevitably, when we seek answers in a limited time frame, so that we get the answers we need, there are practical limitations on what the judge may be able to do. But I am very clear that she will be allowed to do exactly what she wants to do in relation to any one of those cases. I am sure that she will also look generally at the cases across the board.
Dame Heather indicated in a statement today that she will seek to establish the facts and, where necessary, accountability in relation to what happened, to find out who was and is responsible for what happened with the OTR scheme. I expect the judge’s report to be provided to me by the end of May, or by the end of June if the May deadline proves to be impractical. As hon. Members have pointed out—not least the right hon. Member for Belfast North in his opening speech—several inquiries are under way to get to the truth of what happened, including by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the Justice Committee and the police ombudsman.
I agree with a number of the comments made this afternoon, including by the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), that in many ways these inquiries can be complementary and can combine to reveal the full truth of what has happened.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Perhaps when he responds the Minister will say not only whether consultation was held, but with whom it was held and what information was given by the individual parties. That would allow us to see whether the results of the consultation are in line with what he proposes today.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
Clearly, many difficult decisions were made as a result of the peace process. Some aspects of the Good Friday agreement were hard to swallow for many in the House, but I think that it is important that we reflect on the implications of the John Downey case and how a very serious mistake came to be made. Of course, as I have said to the House, we are urgently checking to ensure that similar mistakes were not made in any other cases.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
It is rather disgraceful that any former Secretary of State could compare the DUP to terrorists. Has not the Downey revelation in reality made the Haass talks a farce and destroyed any process Haass has ever started? Does it not erode confidence among the general law-abiding community, and is this not indeed a dark day for justice as far as the United Kingdom is concerned?
Mrs Villiers
My primary thoughts are with the families of those who died on that terrible day in July 1982. This whole episode must have provoked very painful memories. I am sure that it is a source of sadness and regret for them, as it is for us, that no one has been brought to justice for the Hyde park bombing. Despite the long shadow that this case is likely to cast, I hope that the Northern Ireland parties will continue to work together to see whether a solution can be found to deal with the legacy of the past in Northern Ireland.
Haass Talks
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
As I have said, that issue is well worth considering, and this shows one of the values of this early opportunity to debate in the House where things stand with the Haass process. No doubt the First Minister and Deputy First Minister will be given a read out of our proceedings, and I will certainly discuss with them the possibilities of appointing an independent chair, if they think that appropriate.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
I join my right hon. Friends the Members for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), as well as other hon. Members, in their tributes to Paul Goggins. I knew him personally and found him to be someone who was set apart from many others. He was a person of great grace and tremendous integrity, and he was approachable by everyone, irrespective of which side of the House they were from.
I also thank the Secretary of State for bringing to the House her report on the Haass talks. She will be acutely aware of attempts by republicans to place the flag of the Irish Republic on an equal footing with our sovereign flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is one sovereign flag in Northern Ireland—the Union flag. As a professed Unionist, will the right hon. Lady assure me that the Government will never support any attempt to equate the sovereign flag with the flag of the Irish Republic, a neighbouring country?
Mrs Villiers
As the sovereign flag of the United Kingdom, of course the Union flag must have special status in Northern Ireland. One of the challenges that Dr Haass encountered was that it seemed difficult to distinguish symbols of identity from symbols of sovereignty when it came to an expression of Irishness. It is important that consideration continues on those matters, and I wholeheartedly endorse the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that, of course, the Union flag will always have a special status as the national flag as long as Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom. The Belfast agreement makes it clear that Northern Ireland will stay part of the United Kingdom unless and until its people vote otherwise.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(10 years, 12 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Order. These are extremely important matters affecting people in Northern Ireland and there is far too much noise. Let us hear the Rev. William McCrea.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
But does the Minister of State not accept that if what was termed the “bedroom tax” here on the mainland was introduced in Northern Ireland, it would cause rent arrears to rocket, cause havoc across settled communities and increase already high levels of poverty?
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Mark Durkan
First, the new clause does not seek to introduce an omnibus report in relation to all the events of Northern Ireland’s burdened past. It is not one received version that looks at all the tragedies and atrocities in Northern Ireland’s troubled history. The new clause would create the ability or capacity for the Secretary of State to commission reports on different classes, groups or possible groups of crimes. Just as many people have found the book, “Lethal Allies”, a compelling drawing together of a number of different reports, plus other evidence relating to the work of a network of loyalist activity over a period of six years, so there could well be room to say that we need a report that draws together HET and any other findings on the work of the IRA in a given area or over a given period, or of the Irish National Liberation Army, or of loyalist paramilitaries in other areas, so that people who were victims know that their experiences were not isolated cases in which they were victimised and bereaved but were part of a network or pattern at a particular time. That narrative should be brought out and should be available to people.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Is there not a confusion in what the hon. Gentleman has presented to the House? On the one hand, he tells us that there is a report about the HET and its fairness and ability to investigate collusion and so on which puts a question mark over it. On the other hand, he brings out the virtues of the HET, which somehow aids a “powerful” book, so-called, whenever it comes to security force collusion.
Mark Durkan
The HET has done some good work, but it has also done some work of very questionable quality. No less an authority than Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has found the HET’s work wanting in relation to the investigation of Army deaths, how they were investigated and how witnesses and potential witnesses were treated in that situation. It was a damning indictment by HMIC that the HET’s standard of performance in relation to a certain class of cases was illegal. That is not my finding, but accepting and recognising it and its seriousness does not lead me to rubbish cases in which the HET has done some good work and been able to marshal firm evidence that was of significance to families—evidence that was not shared with those families by anybody except the HET before now.
Mark Durkan
First of all, I am not creating a class of good HET reports or bad HET reports. I am not saying that the Secretary of State must commission reports in relation to every single death on the basis of HET reports. My aim is to make good a deficiency in the work of the HET to date: its work counts solely as the private property of families, unless the families themselves choose to publish it. There is no formality in this House, for instance, whereby the Government may make an apology to a family on the back of an HET report. The Government up till now have treated that apology as a private matter, not a matter for the parliamentary record. An apology was duly given by the Ministry of Defence after a family had shared with it an HET report, but we had to go to the bother of an Adjournment debate, which I called, to get that apology voiced on the record. That shows that there is a problem in how HET reports are treated.
This is not just a point that we in the SDLP have come up with. Others have addressed it as well. There are victims groups who say that this is one of the deficiencies in relation to the HET. There is a question mark not only over the quality of the HET’s work, but over what the rest of us are doing with the HET’s work and whether the rest of us are interested in it. In the Haass talks the parties are meant to be addressing what is to be done about the past and what is being done, and it is important to acknowledge that some good work that has been done may not have been valued enough and is not well enough advertised or circulated. The measure is an attempt to improve that.
Dr McCrea
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because we are moving into a very sensitive area. There seems to be a hierarchy of victims. Will he tell me why Robert McLernon, at 16 years of age, and Rachel McLernon, at 21 years of age, on the day she was engaged to be married, were targeted by the IRA? Should we not know that? Who is going to tell us that?
Mark Durkan
I absolutely believe that, in so far as anybody can tell us, we should know that. If there is ever an HET report that could tell us that, we should be told, rather than someone saying, “Oh no, it’s an HET report, so it’s the private property of the family.” The onus should not be entirely upon the family to make good that report.
The HET produced a very significant report on the Kingsmill massacre, but I do not believe that it received as much attention as it deserved. Its import was not fully registered in this House, or indeed in other places, and I believe that it should have been. Of course, the Kingsmill massacre is not the only evidence that discounts the cosy claim that has been made in the past for the IRA, and is still made to date, even on behalf of Sinn Fein, that there was nothing sectarian about the IRA campaign and that only loyalist paramilitaries carried out campaigns with an eye to a sectarian agenda. That is quite clear from a number of events, and not only those carried out by the IRA, but arguably those carried out by other republican paramilitaries at the time, when it was or was not the IRA, or when another flag of convenience was being flown, for example in the Darkley massacre.
I do not believe that it is only in relation to the murders of the Glenanne gang that we could benefit from a clear account based on sound findings from other inquiries. Remember that the power that new clause 1 would give the Secretary of State is to commission a report that draws on the findings of other bodies, not to set up a new investigative mechanism or some new roving or roaming inquiry into everything and anything. It would take the value and significance of what has already been found by other competent inquiries and investigations, so it would take what is already there in reports and marshal it together to draw value, and not just for the victims, but for wider society. I hope that idea will commend itself to the parties as they consider these and other issues in the Haass talks.
Ms Ritchie
We would be happy to provide some information on that. It could be an individual, a range of individuals or a range of bodies.
Suffice it to say that we believe that this device is required in order to inform because patterns have emerged in various cases, such as in the weapons that were used, that suggest who might have been involved in carrying out murders. It is good to learn those lessons and to have them documented. The compendium of work by Anne Cadwallader, which was published several weeks ago, suggests that such a device is urgently required.
Dr McCrea
I have listened with interest to the speeches that have been made. New clause 1, which was proposed by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), states:
“The Secretary of State may appoint a person or persons to prepare an analysis of findings, issues, patterns or lessons from various reports in particular events of Northern Ireland’s troubled past.”
Let us be honest in saying that the past is a difficult subject. It is rightly called “Northern Ireland’s troubled past”.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Even with a commitment to opening up all the files, would not most of them show only what the security forces did, because there are not the files on what the terrorists did? Indeed, many of them, including the current Sinn Fein president, deny ever having been involved in terrorism.
Dr McCrea
I accept that many of the atrocities carried out by members of the IRA are not in the files, but there are files on McGuinness and Adams, and it is about time they were brought out, if we are to have this openness we talk about.
The apologies, too, are selective. We have had apologies in the House, but they have been selective. Where was the Government’s apology to the people of Teebane? People might say, “Well, the Government didn’t let it happen”, but yes they did. Successive Governments of this United Kingdom allowed the Provisional IRA to carry out its atrocities. They could have stopped it on many occasions, but what did they do? They wined and dined its members and took them into the places of power, instead of bringing them to justice. If we are to have apologies, therefore, I do not want selective apologies; I want apologies to the families of La Mon, Teebane, Castlederg. I represented that constituency when those people were killed, and I would take Members to visit a little graveyard outside the town of Castlederg— 30 mph speed limit—because proportionally more members of the security forces lie there than in any other part of this United Kingdom. But who really cares? They were just members of the RUC and UDR along the border. They were just ordinary families.
Ian Paisley
Does my hon. Friend agree that we have a pup’s chance of getting an apology from the Provisional IRA? The MLA for Belfast North, Mr Gerry Kelly, shot a man in the face when escaping from Her Majesty’s prison Maze, but not only does he deny it, he has now authored a book in which he makes no apology and shows no shame for organising an escape from the prison. What are the chances of ever getting an apology from that type of scurrilous individual?
Dr McCrea
One thing about that man from north Belfast: he knows who shot that prison officer and so he should be making a revelation.
I heard more about the Glenanne gang, but let us be quite clear. If we are going to have the record of the troubled past and if we want to appoint a person to prepare an analysis of the findings, issues, patterns and lessons from previous reports, there are an awful lot of gangs that were around in Northern Ireland, and I can assure hon. Members that they brought a lot of grief to a lot of families and homes whose lives will never, ever be put together again. We had 30 years of terrorism— 30 years of appeasement by those in authority.
Jim Shannon
I thank my hon. Friend for the impassioned speech he is making on behalf of us all inside and outside this House. He talks about the contribution of the security forces. When four UDR men were killed in Ballydugan outside Downpatrick, 12 people were brought in for questioning, yet none was made accountable for that crime. I knew three of those four men who gave their lives for the Province—as, indeed, did many others. That is an example of sacrifice and no accountability for those who committed the crime.
Dr McCrea
We could tell that story over and over again; all I am saying is that I do not want a partial telling of the story. When it comes to the story of the tragedy of the 30 years of trouble in Northern Ireland, I am certainly not willing to allow the provos or the Shinners to rewrite the history. I would say this to the hon. Member for Foyle: remember, there is no excuse for any paramilitary act or for taking the life of another person. Let us remember that the Provisional IRA started a campaign of murder against an innocent, law-abiding people. The only sin we were guilty of was that we wanted to be British. We wanted to remain a part of this United Kingdom, and the only good thing—on which I will finish—is this. Thank God we won, because we are still British and the Union flag is still flying—I trust it will be brought back for every other building, as well as those on which it is flying now. Thank God they did not beat us, they did not beat the ordinary people of the Province and we are still a part of this United Kingdom.
Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab)
It is good to have this rare opportunity to debate Northern Ireland matters on the Floor of the House. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) to his role as Minister of State and wish him well on behalf of all Members. I am sorry that the Secretary of State is unable to be here, but I am sure she has important matters to deal with that require her attendance elsewhere.
I have said that we will work in a bipartisan way with the Government where we agree. For the most part, the proposals in the Bill are common sense and consistent with devolutionary principles, which is why they have our support. Our only disappointment is that they are relatively minor matters when considering the scale of the challenges facing Northern Ireland, whether about the past or building a shared future.
Before turning to specific elements of the Bill, I would like to use this first parliamentary opportunity to pay tribute to Eddie McGrady, who sadly passed away last week. He was a tireless campaigner for social justice and peace and was held in high regard by many Members in all parts of this House. Our thoughts and prayers are with Eddie McGrady’s family and friends at this difficult time.
I would also like to take this opportunity to condemn in the strongest possible terms the petrol bomb attack on the Alliance party office in east Belfast over the weekend.
Mr Lewis
That is very generous of the hon. Gentleman. Eddie McGrady earned tremendous respect, not only in all parts of this House, but across the divides in Northern Ireland. He genuinely believed in peace and condemned the use of violence at every opportunity. Perhaps most of all, he will be remembered for being a great fighter for social justice and fairness.
Mr Dodds
I do not accept that. I do not accept that we have an excessive use of petitions of concern. I would need to look at all the evidence and, as I have said, 40% of the petitions are put down by nationalists. I do not subscribe to any gridlock being entirely down to these petitions, but the new clause would add to the problems if it were passed. Let us consider the example of welfare reform, which is currently held up in the Assembly. The Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who has now moved on, was in Northern Ireland the other day warning about the consequences of welfare reform delays for the block grant. That has nothing to do with petitions of concern; that is a political hold-up because Sinn Fein will not grasp and deal with the issue, and it is going to cost the entire Northern Ireland electorate, ratepayers and taxpayers a lot of money if it does not. So I do not think that petitions of concern are primarily the issue here.
What seems to be at the root of the proposal by the hon. Member for Foyle is that some kind of abuse is happening. He spoke about when petitions of concern should be used and so on, although that is not qualified in the Belfast agreement. What happens when we consider other elements, such as cross-community voting? He has not in any way sought to amend that—indeed, no party has. If proposals were to be made about that, they should be discussed within the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, and the parties in Northern Ireland should come up with their own suggestions, solutions and proposals.
I recall a famous day when I was in the Assembly and those processes of cross-community voting were abused—a horse and carriage was driven through the powers of designation. The Alliance party previously had been designated as “other”—neither Unionist nor nationalist—and has remained “other” for every other vote and occasion since. However, on this occasion it was persuaded to become, in the words of its now leader,
“the back end of a pantomime horse”—
that is how he described it—by designating the party as “Unionist”. Why was that done? It was done to ensure that then deputy leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party, the hon. Gentleman’s party, could remain as Deputy First Minister when he had actually resigned. The proposal was introduced whereby the Assembly had to accept the resignation for it to become valid. There was a total abuse of the rules and of the purposes for which they were introduced. This has never been done since because people were appalled by it, yet reference is never made to it.
Dr McCrea
Is it not strange that, yet again, we are hearing from the revisionists? Whenever 40% is republican, we are told, “No, there is no abuse of petitions of concern.” But, then, when the Unionists use 60%, we are told, “Yes, that is abuse.” So, once again, we have, “Unionists at fault. Nationalists and republicans not at all.” My right hon. Friend mentioned that Seamus Mallon resigned and then did not resign. Well, Bobby Ewing came out of the shower and he was dead—and then he was not dead, after all.
Mr Dodds
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s remarks.
In conclusion, new clause 2 is a misconceived proposal, but I commend amendment 3. It is a technical amendment saying that if we are giving the power to the Northern Ireland Assembly to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly—as we are proposing to do in this Bill, because that is right and proper, and that should be a matter for the Assembly—the Assembly should also have the power to consider the number of people required for a petition of concern to be valid. For it to remain at 30 would be completely wrong, as that number was regarded as proportionate for 108 MLAs. If the Assembly were reduced to 90 MLAs or fewer, as would be my preference, it would clearly be right, proper and sensible to reduce the number required to sign a petition of concern. Amendment 3 is a technical and sensible amendment, and I hope the Government will take it on board.