Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Deben, I deeply regret that this issue is being dealt with here. It is obvious from the first quarter of an hour of debate, from the many local issues that have arisen, that local MLAs would understand the nuances far better. It is a crying shame that this is not being dealt with there.

I have one point to make to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. My party did not agree to New Decade, New Approach. In fact, I deeply regret a lot of the proceedings that led up to it and a lot of what is included in it because I fear that this Bill has within it the seeds of a grievance factory, where it is going to be very difficult to make everybody feel that their particularly identity is being represented. Indeed, it may be a shock to many that people do not go round the place wondering who they are each day; it is not something at the top of people’s agenda when they cannot even put money in the meter to keep their lights on. We must understand that it is not the sort of thing that is necessarily top of people’s agenda.

We must avoid two things. First, because this Bill is not subject to debate in the Assembly where implementation of it would take place, this House cannot amend it —because, if the Assembly is not there, the only process is here, and therefore we should not be afraid to do that. Secondly, and equally, we must be wary of imposing conditions that prove to be difficult for the Assembly.

I think there is some merit in what is suggested in Amendment 1. I take the point about other languages, but one has to be careful about who is included in that and who is not. Within the past 36 months, we have had the arrival on our shores of people from varying backgrounds—from Syria and Afghanistan—we have had a significant indigenous Chinese population for as long as I can remember, and we have had people coming from eastern Europe as part of the European Union for many years, who have built up considerable numbers, particularly in the past 15 years or so. So who is included in that and who is not is very difficult. I ask colleagues to bear those points in mind.

My noble friend Lord Morrow makes a valid point about the boundaries where one public body ends and another begins. There could be quite a lot of overreach and overstretch there. If an office dealing with identity issues becomes specifically involved in rights and equality, there is some overlap, but they would be two quite distinct areas, and we must take great care that we do not create a scrambled egg of bodies all competing about where the boundaries of their activities begin and end. I urge a bit of caution from the Minister in that regard.

Bearing in mind that it is a matter of very deep regret that we have to do this, I suggest that the one thing that we try to avoid is making things worse by confusing the role of one public body with another. I do not think it was ever the intention of the negotiators of New Decade, New Approach that the existing equalities and human rights commissions would be subject to override in this area. In the event that somebody feels that their human right has been overruled, they still have the opportunity to have their case taken up by those bodies. The right to do that is not conflicted in any way by anything in this, but we must avoid confusion. The existing lines are relatively clear, and I think we should adhere to them.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, once again we are dealing with an issue that was the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Once again, the Government have taken it out of the hands of the Assembly. This has not just arrived since the last Assembly election; this was from before that. I remind some noble Lords that the history of this goes back to the previous three-year suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly by Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin would not come back into the Assembly but made certain demands before it would come back in. One of the demands was on the abortion legislation; it wanted abortion on demand. The second was an Irish language Act. It has to be admitted that it did not get an Irish language Act, because this is the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill, but nevertheless it was part of its demands.

The truth of the matter is that the Government yielded to the demands of Sinn Féin which is why we are having this debate here at Westminster. The new Assembly has certainly not been given the opportunity to debate it, because the Assembly election was just recently. With all the demands that are being made on public finances, I must say that, right across this legislation, I have deep concerns. When one bears in mind that people are fighting to pay their bills and all the demands on public finances at the present moment, I would certainly ask whether this is the best expenditure of public money at this particular time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have spoken to the first group of amendments before us. Before I turn to the detail of the amendments, I place on record my sorrow that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, is not in her place today to move her amendments. I am sure that I speak for the entire Committee in wishing her a speedy recovery and quick return to your Lordships’ House.

I speak first to Amendments 1 and 3, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie—with whom I had the pleasure of serving on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland Sub-Committee for a number of months—for stepping in at a moment’s notice. In broad terms, these amendments seek to amend the Bill’s first clause so that the

“national and cultural identity principles”

provided for in new Section 78F inserted by that clause would respect the “rights of others” rather than taking

“account of … those with different national and cultural identities”,

as drafted in the Bill. Amendment 1 from the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, would make this change, with the second providing a definition of the “rights of others”.

Although I understand the intent behind this amendment, I believe that this would not correctly reflect the national and cultural identity principles that were a matter of careful negotiation between those parties that agreed to New Decade, New Approach, and which are set out in paragraph 25 of that document. They were also set out in the same terms in the accompanying draft legislation that went with New Decade, New Approach. The provision in this Bill therefore reflects the terms under which the parties agreed New Decade, New Approach and re-entered the Executive in January 2020. It has been our approach throughout to reflect in good faith that agreement from January 2020, and I believe that it would be inconsistent with that approach if we were unilaterally to deviate from those principles today.

Amendments 5 and 6 seek to extend the remit of the office of identity and cultural expression. Amendment 5 seeks to include the effective implementation of relevant international human right standards and Amendment 6 would make provision on a comprehensive language strategy to include all spoken and sign languages used in Northern Ireland. As with the national and cultural identity principles, the role and remit of the office of identity and cultural expression have been carefully set out through New Decade, New Approach. I fear that these amendments would represent a deviation from the basis of NDNA; the Government are clear that they will not do this.

As some reassurance, I highlight that new Section 78H(4) will enable the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, acting jointly, to direct the office of identity and cultural expression. They could use this power, for example, to give consideration to certain international standards that they deem relevant or to develop strategies, such as overall language strategies or those on sign language. Of course, they would need to fall within the framework of the principles themselves. In addition, the office itself could decide to consider international human rights standards in the advice and guidance that it provides. Of course, as a number of noble Lords have made clear, we would much prefer this to be taken forward not in your Lordships’ House but by a future Executive and Assembly.

Quickly on the ECHR and human rights, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, my noble friend Lord Deben and others that this Government remain absolutely committed to the Belfast agreement in all its parts. That includes the commitments on the ECHR. As for a Bill of Rights, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, blamed his own Government as much as anyone for the lack of one. As I have always said, the agreement is somewhat ambiguously drafted as to how that should be taken forward, but the policy of successive Governments has been that it is primarily a matter for the Executive and the Assembly. New Decade, New Approach established a committee of the Assembly to look at how this issue might be taken forward.

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[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, very briefly, we are talking about equality and respect, but are we also talking about equality and respect for both regional and minority languages? I employ around 200 people across Northern Ireland. A few speak Lithuanian, a few speak Polish, but I am not aware of any who speak Irish. It is very important that we do not assist or encourage those who want to politicise the issue of the Irish language. I believe that there must be great respect for the Irish minority language in Northern Ireland, and I do not think that it is helped by those who try to politicise it. I therefore ask the Minister to make it clear that this legislation will not discriminate against minority languages and favour regional languages.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Amendment 18 in this group would amend the duty on public authorities to one of compliance with best practice Irish language standards from one of due regard. This proposal is not faithful to the drafting of NDNA, which states that one function of the Irish language commissioner is to consider

“complaints where a public authority has failed to have due regard to those standards.”

By implication, the duty on public authorities is not one of compliance but of due regard; that distinction must be respected. A duty for compliance would potentially require public authorities to adhere to specific guidance despite their being cogent reasons for not doing so. It is unclear whether this approach would lead to public authorities becoming legally liable for not acting on a consideration of competing human rights. A due regard duty is not a loose concept, as this amendment seems to imply. It means that a person under the duty is not free to disregard but must consider all relevant considerations.

[Baroness Goudie (Lab)]

My Lords, I raised this issue in my Second Reading speech and I am happy to speak to these amendments and others on this issue. I really feel that it is important that we should have “comply with” and not “have due regard to” in the Bill. It is really important that people understand why we are doing this; if somebody needs only to “have due regard” to something, they just have to look at it. It is important that they should have to comply with best practice, and I would like to see that left in the Bill.

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[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose this proposal simply because it is not something for this Parliament. We are here only because there is no Northern Ireland Assembly.

I have to say to my DUP colleagues that it is a much more serious thing when those who are in favour of unionism and of the north of Ireland and Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom, as I am, decide not to make the system work because the system is there to be the means whereby the union works. It is no good saying, “Well, the Sinn Féiners did this, that and the other”. They do not believe in the system; that is why we do not agree with them. It is a much more serious question when the people who do believe in the system make it impossible to do these things in Northern Ireland. Those of us who are unionists need to say to them that it is no longer sensible or acceptable to tell the British Government that they cannot have what is sensible devolution. The idea that this has to come back here because we cannot debate it in the Northern Ireland Assembly seems to me unacceptable and unreasonable. I therefore hope, of course, that the Government will make sure that there is a proper report to the Assembly. The Assembly will no doubt be careful about the spending of its money. We are already spending per head of population a great deal more money in Northern Ireland than we are, for example, in my own area of Wales, where we manage the language issue much more effectively.

The last thing I want to say to the DUP, very simply, is this: having a sense of generosity would be so attractive—just a sense of recognising that other people have a different way of looking at things. I am perfectly able to say “the north of Ireland” because quite a lot of people in Northern Ireland think that. It does not mean to say that I am not entirely in favour of the union, as long as there is a majority for it.

We really do have to get out of this lack of generosity. I want to hear people reaching out across the divide instead of constantly looking at the papers and saying, “This is not quite right for me and, my goodness me, we have not quite got that”. It is time to have a different way. I would remember that “new decade, new start” is rather a good phrase. I would like to have a new start with a bit of generosity from those who have been in power and have had control for a very long time.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord had to say. When it comes to a spirit of generosity, it is with a spirit of generosity that the party I represent has been willing to go into and be part of an Executive in Northern Ireland with those who for years sought to murder us. I take no lectures bearing in mind that some of us who are gathered here are not supposed to be here as far as Sinn Féin/IRA is concerned because our family was to be wiped out completely in one last action of the IRA. Therefore, when it comes to generosity, it is very difficult to accept those in government. I am speaking personally on this. I found it very difficult to watch those who paraded on the roads of Ulster with terrorist weapons in their hands to destroy us every night. For 25 years, I sat in the back of an armoured police car, having to be guarded; my family were not allowed to travel with me. So when it comes to generosity, I suggest that the people I represent have been very generous.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn for the way in which moved his amendment. The effect of this group of amendments would be to place the Secretary of State under a duty to assess ahead of commencement, and annually thereafter, the costs arising from the three bodies.

I genuinely appreciate the intent behind these amendments but it is, as my noble friend Lord Deben made clear in his comments, not a matter for UK Government Ministers to conduct annual assessments for public bodies for which they are not directly responsible. The three public authorities established by this Bill will be administered, supported and funded by the Executive Office and fall squarely under the devolved competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

My noble friend referred to the estimated costs of the bodies. That will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly, although my officials—I think this is in the Explanatory Notes—have estimated through comparison with similar bodies a figure in the range of around £9 million per annum for all three bodies to run. As my noble friend Lord Deben highlighted, expenditure from the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to scrutinise. That is why, in the case of all three authorities, specific provision is made for the Executive Office to lay a copy of the statement of accounts and the statement of the Comptroller and Auditor-General for Northern Ireland before the Assembly.

Although Parts 6 and 7, which we will come on to later, make provision for the Secretary of State to ensure the implementation of the provisions in this Bill if that is absolutely necessary, I again highlight that it is not the intention of either the Government or that part of the Bill to result in a situation in which the Secretary of State routinely involves himself in transferred matters.

These amendments would make the Secretary of State’s involvement in transferred matters of identity, language and culture a permanent feature. We would prefer those to remain considerations for Northern Ireland’s devolved institutions. For that reason, I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, unlike a good wine, sometimes negotiations do not age well. Sometimes we get it right; sometimes we get it wrong. I think the noble Lord has a fair point. I do not know, because I was not involved in the detail of these negotiations, what the rationale was to reach the final form of New Decade, New Approach. No doubt the Minister will say to me that he is trying to follow as faithfully as possible the agreement that was reached, but that does not mean that we have to be slavish in our acceptance of the provisions.

There is a perception issue here; there is no doubt about that. The Minister may have a very convincing explanation—he is usually very capable at providing them—but he has a bit of an uphill task, given the fairly broad, fairly substantial gap between the powers of the two commissioners. Perhaps he can put our minds at rest, but even if he is following New Decade, New Approach as far as I am concerned that does not mean that he has to be a slavish follower of it. I look forward to him perhaps considering before Report whether something can be done to remove the perception of inequality between the powers of these respective commissioners.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, accepting the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I do not believe that there is only a perception of a difference; this legislation would actually make a difference between the two. NDNA did not give acceptance or credence to lack of parity of esteem; in actual fact, it was demanding that. It was not seeking to be used for discrimination against the unionist community; in actual fact, it was demanding that both communities in Northern Ireland were treated with that parity of esteem.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Once again, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, for the way in which he moved his amendment. To comment briefly on the words of my noble friend Lord Empey, I think it was Duff Cooper whose memoirs were entitled Old Men Forget. I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend but even I have forgotten some of the details of the New Decade, New Approach negotiations that took place over those torturous three years between 2017 and 2020.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, for tabling these amendments, which relate to extending the grounds upon which an individual can make a complaint to the process for the Ulster Scots commissioner. I have a number of concerns regarding the amendments; I will set them out briefly.

My first concern is that it would not be appropriate to amend one of the commissioner’s complaints procedures but not the other. The amendments in the name of the noble Lord would undermine the position reached in New Decade, New Approach that the commissioner should be able to investigate relevant complaints about a public authority’s lack of due regard to advice provided in respect of facilitating the use of Ulster Scots. That is why the Bill specifically refers to “published facilitation guidance”.

I highlight to noble Lords that, in preparing this legislation, the Government have provided the essential clarity on the complaints process for the commissioner so that it provides similar clarity and certainty to the complaints process provided for the Irish language commissioner. The role of the Ulster Scots/Ulster British commissioner and their work to provide advice and guidance will cover the same public authorities as the office of identity and cultural expression and the Irish language commissioner. The public will be able to make complaints to each commissioner in the same way.

On the parity of esteem point made by my noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, as I said on an earlier group of amendments, the commissioners have been designed to meet the different needs of different parts of the community. They are different in function, and therefore there are certain disparities in their powers. Again, that was the position reached in New Decade, New Approach; the Government are faithfully trying to follow it.

I suspect that I have not reassured the noble Lord on this issue. He may wish to return to it but, for now, I would be grateful if he would withdraw his amendment.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2022

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Lords Chamber

I suspect that no one foresaw it and it is a very difficult problem to solve now, but although there are huge practical problems to be faced, I hope we are facing up to the question of what we will do about the financial consequences of making the Northern Ireland Government pay for a new service in the health service that they do not actually want. It will be difficult in practice, but in principle, as a matter of constitution, thinking of the kind of United Kingdom that I trust we all want, it is proper for the Government to take this step and I have risen only to try to rebalance the debate. There is a serious issue, but I trust that the Government will get the majority they seek.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I commend the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, on her amendment. I can assure her that if it is pushed to a vote, I will be very happy to support it. I would like, however, to correct the noble and learned Lord, Lord Clarke, who has shown a somewhat inaccurate knowledge of what is happening in Northern Ireland. He said that there is one region within the United Kingdom where there is no abortion law. In actual fact, the very opposite is the truth: we have the most liberal abortion law of any region of the United Kingdom. If the noble and learned Lord wants to speak on the issue, it is best that he reads up on the reality of the situation, because his speech a few moments ago showed a total lack of knowledge of the reality on the ground in Northern Ireland in respect of abortion.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

The availability of the service is much more restricted in Northern Ireland. If I said that the issue was the legality in Northern Ireland, that was a slip. There is no doubt that access to abortion is much more restricted in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the United Kingdom—that is the whole point of this debate.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

But what he said was somewhat different—however, I want to move forward. I acknowledge that this is a very sensitive matter and different sides have deeply held views on it throughout the Northern Ireland community. The Secretary of State acknowledged that to the Seventh Delegated Legislation Committee in the other place last Thursday, but he then deliberately and defiantly—given the views held by many hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland—sought to push through his regulation.

The Secretary of State also acknowledged that these regulations “go beyond” what is in Northern Ireland, in spite of the Government never having asked the people of Northern Ireland to give their express democratic opinion on this matter through the ballot box. Over the years, Northern Ireland has taken an approach to the protection of the unborn that is different from any other region of the United Kingdom—but that was regarded to be part of the beauty of devolution. This difference reflected the views of the people of Northern Ireland, which is what democracy is supposed to do: reflect the views of the people whom politicians serve.

The Secretary of State reminded the committee that “emphatic votes” on this ethical issue in 2019, 2020 and 2021 showed the will of the House of Commons to “implement abortion services” in Northern Ireland. That is factually correct, but this matter was devolved to Stormont—yet, in 2019, a group of MPs, none of whom were or are accountable to the people of Northern Ireland, decided to cast aside the devolution settlement and take it into their own hands. Sadly, their decision was aided and abetted by Members of your Lordships’ House. This happened in spite of the fact that we are daily told that the Belfast agreement must be upheld at all costs—yet, at the whim of the Secretary of State, to placate Sinn Féin and its fellow travellers, the fundamental principles of this international agreement have been altered. The protection of the unborn, which was cherished by the people of Northern Ireland, has been swept aside.

Earlier I noted that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said that this is being done because of “exceptional” circumstances. That is interesting, because in Grand Committee tomorrow we will debate another devolved issue, in the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill, so where does this all stop? Is there any real reason for a devolved Government? Is this House really saying, “If you don’t do what we want, we will take the power from you. We will override your decision and make it for you”? So much for those who profess to believe in the Belfast agreement and devolution.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Would the noble Lord agree that it would perhaps be better if HMG waited until the devolved Assembly and Executive got going again before a final decision is made?

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[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I accept that we long for the devolved Administration to be set up in Northern Ireland, but we all know the reason why that is not happening at the moment. It is because of the forcing of the protocol upon the people of Northern Ireland, yet the heart of the Belfast agreement is that there has to be an acceptance and a willingness from all within the community of Northern Ireland, both the unionists and the nationalists, but the will of the unionist population has been totally swept aside. Therefore, we are ensuring that the will of the people—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

It would appear that a majority of the people of Northern Ireland do not wish to see the protocol swept away—amended yes, but swept away most certainly not—and that is not a devolved issue. The noble Lord reprimanded my noble and learned friend Lord Clarke, and I must gently reprimand him to get his facts right.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Not one unionist representative within Northern Ireland supports the protocol. If the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, knows one, perhaps he wants to tell us who they are, and I will accept his—

[Lord Cormack]

A majority of people recently elected to the Assembly accept the protocol.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has missed the point of the Belfast agreement. There must be a majority of unionists and a majority of nationalists. I am pointing out to the noble Lord—and I am not going to be deflected from the real issue that is before us we are talking about abortion—but I have to say to him, that as far as the protocol is concerned, and I emphasise it again, not one unionist representative returned to the Northern Ireland Assembly is there to support, or give support, or give credence to the Northern Ireland protocol.

Indeed, the damage to the Belfast agreement is clearly seen because Regulation 2 spells it out for us:

“the Executive Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly is to be disregarded when determining what a relevant person could do for the purposes of paragraph (1).”

I trust that everyone understands that under this regulation the opinion of the Northern Ireland Executive is to be totally ignored, totally disregarded. Such is the arrogance of those who bring forth these regulations. Indeed, the present difficulties in establishing a new Executive in Northern Ireland are due to many law-abiding people in Northern Ireland feeling that their concerns have been disregarded, undermined and ignored.

This statutory instrument simply adds to such alienation and does grave damage to the restoration of devolution. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 makes it clear that on matters that are significant and cross-cutting, the Executive must take the decision and it cannot be left to an individual Minister to decide. I know that the powers granted to the Northern Ireland Executive are not limitless and that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland does have power to intervene and directly administer. However, that power is also limited and is there to ensure that decisions taken are compatible with international law, having regard to the protection of public order or the vital issue of national security.

These regulations change the very substance of the Belfast agreement and the Northern Ireland Act. These regulations permit the Secretary of State to have absolute power without scrutiny or accountability. When the Minister replies perhaps he can tell us where the power of the Minister of Health stops and the power of the Secretary of State begins. If the Secretary of State commands a civil servant in the Department of Health to do something and the Minister of Health gives a contrary command, whose decision does the civil servant obey? Does this not put civil servants in direct conflict with their Minister?

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, no one can deny that the Irish language has been weaponised by Sinn Féin and the SDLP. Those of us who live in the west of the Province are fully aware of that fact; it is in our face every day. It is a way of marking out territory by republicanism. The context and content of the Bill fail to acknowledge that those who consented to the New Decade, New Approach agreement did so in the belief that it would be implemented by facilitation rather than imposition. The introduction of this legislation cherry picks one element of the January 2020 agreement, while ignoring the commitment to protect Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom’s internal market from the carnage of the protocol. It is both ill judged and imbalanced.

It is clear that there has been no attempt to build consensus towards the legislation at a time when confidence in government and devolution has been eroded to the point of being on life support. Clauses 6 and 7 would implicitly override the integral cross-community safeguards at the heart of the Belfast and St Andrews agreements, which would normally require controversial decisions in the devolved areas of culture and language to be made by the Executive in the future. This disregard for the democratic process in Northern Ireland is disgusting and will be clearly seen as a deliberate attempt to denigrate the concerns in particular of the unionist community. Of course, this is not the first time that the Government have done this; on each occasion, they have done this to placate the three demands of Sinn Féin and one of them—the final one—is being carried forth today.

Can the Minister tell your Lordships what measures Her Majesty’s Government have taken to override the authority of devolution in Scotland or Wales? At the whim of republican demands, devolution has been totally —perhaps irreparably—damaged in Northern Ireland. Although the implementation of the protocol continues, compounding the cost of living crisis, there is an irony—but also a sadness—that the Government have reserved action for those in Sinn Féin and the nationalist community who shout the loudest, despite this legislation offering no tangible or practical benefits for hard-pressed families across our Province. Some suggest that the publication of the legislation concerning the protocol in another place this week will address the situation of the protocol, and that should somehow placate or satisfy unionists and get Stormont up and moving again. I remind this House that this is foolish thinking.

The latest poll today reveals that the vast majority of the unionist population support the Democratic Unionist Party’s stance on the protocol and the stand it is taking on the restoration of devolution. Let me make it clear: I do not support this legislation and it will not command the support of the unionist community from which I come. This was not to be taken in isolation; it was to be a total, comprehensive deal, and this is only one part of it, while the Government seem to forget the rest.

The Future of the Northern Ireland Assembly

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

In preparing for this question, I would never have anticipated in a million years that the noble Baroness would have raised the protocol. She is aware of the Government’s position on the protocol; as the Secretary of State said to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last week, it is not sustainable in its present form, requiring very drastic and radical change, and the Government are working with the EU to try to bring that about. In the absence of agreement, she is aware that we will take whatever action is required to remedy the situation. Regarding interventions in devolved areas, I remind the noble Baroness that she was a member of a government who in 2000 intervened directly in a devolved matter: the Northern Ireland Executive could not agree on the flying of flags from public buildings, and the Labour Government legislated here.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, rather than interfering in sensitive matters devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, does the Minister not accept that the Secretary of State would be better to use his efforts in removing the Northern Ireland protocol, thus protecting Northern Ireland’s constitutional position within the United Kingdom, because failure to do so will undermine the possibility of any Executive being restored?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

In respect of the constitutional position of Northern Ireland, the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, will be aware of my very strong unionist convictions and my strong personal support for Northern Ireland’s position as part of this United Kingdom. So far as the protocol is concerned, I think I have set out the Government’s position: we are committed to making the necessary changes to the protocol, which is unsustainable in its current form.

Northern Ireland

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I assure the noble Baroness that the Government have been having discussions—not just with one party but with parties across the Northern Ireland Executive—in the run-up to the decision of the former First Minister last week and subsequently. She raises a very important point about the budget and, of course, one of the things that has bedevilled Northern Ireland in recent years has been the single-year budgets rather than the much longer three or four-year spending reviews that we are used to here. So far as the current situation is concerned, my understanding is that the Finance Minister can bring to the Assembly a budget for the next financial year, but she is absolutely right that it is not possible now to do a three-year budget, which would have to be a priority for an incoming Executive after the election.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, the Minister is surely aware that the Northern Ireland protocol is not consistent with the Belfast agreement, the principle of consent or Northern Ireland’s constitutional position within the United Kingdom. It does not have the support of one unionist party in Northern Ireland. The Government have been given ample warning of what was going to happen and now they must deal with the problem. I do not mean tinkering with the protocol—it has to go.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, raises a number of very important points, many of which are subject to a legal case currently before the Court of Appeal in Belfast, so it would not be appropriate for me to comment in detail on a number of his points. He referred to Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is very much a part of the United Kingdom, something which this Government strongly support and I personally passionately support.

Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the very technical provisions in these regulations. They deal with very sensitive issues relating to the passing of Prince Philip and the demarcation issues around the wedding day of the late Prince and Queen Elizabeth.

While the regulations make technical amendments, it is worth noting that flags and emblems in Northern Ireland have gone to the very heart of our society and community. They also lead in very much to our divided society. Northern Ireland is a divided society where flags and emblems are used on many occasions to mark out territory, define identity and cause internecine conflict between both traditions; this situation is heightened during the marching season. I suppose there are two flags: the flag of the United Kingdom and that of the Republic of Ireland. It is important that there is respect for both traditions and that we talk in terms of mutual understanding, building a shared society and having respect for political difference. Flags should not be dragged in the gutter to make a political point. Traditions should respect the value of identity and of those flags that demonstrate identity.

There is one issue, which was also raised during the Assembly debate on this on 8 November. The Minister will recall that, at the Stormont House talks, and then with the subsequent agreement, a decision was taken to establish the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition. It met on many occasions and eventually presented its report to the Executive Office last year. Even though it had worked on this for a considerable time before publishing the report in December, to me the report simply kicked the can down the road. No forward plan or action plan was produced, despite a delay of some two years in the report’s publication. It concluded that paramilitary flags—which are different from the union flag and the tricolour—and murals should not be displayed, but there was no plan from the commission to deal with this. Therefore, I ask the Minister to use his good offices with the Northern Ireland Executive, and in particular the Ministers in the Executive Office, to find out when they will bring forward a plan and when they will have discussions with the Government, under the strand one commitments of the Good Friday agreement, to deal with these issues. I am in no doubt that, to build that shared society, we require mutual understanding, reconciliation and, above all, respect for political difference.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear outline of the purpose of the legislation and his explanation of the provisions in it. It deals with some necessary amendments demanded to meet life’s realities. I once again pay tribute to His Royal Highness Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, who not only gave sterling service to the nation but had a particularly important role in promoting relationships within Northern Ireland, especially through participation in the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award scheme.

These amendments remove Prince Philip’s birthday and Her Majesty the Queen’s wedding day from the list of designated days to fly the union flag. I regret this is necessary, but I accept its reality. It is also vital that we prepare for the death of our monarch, and in my heart I say, as I have often sung, “Long may she reign”. We are so privileged to have as our monarch the most remarkable woman in the world, whose integrity and strength of character have shone brightly in even the most difficult of circumstances. Her example is one that we all should seek to emulate.

I will make a few other remarks in the light of what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. I want to make it clear that there are not two flags for Northern Ireland; there is one—the flag of the United Kingdom. I respect the flag of the Irish Republic for what it is: the flag of the Irish Republic. I live in an area in which every day I face travelling down the road with a flag of a foreign country being flaunted in my face. That is in a neighbourhood where many people were murdered by the IRA. I believe, from the remarks that have already been made, that all noble Lords acknowledge that flags and emblems are a sensitive issue in Northern Ireland. In reality, flags are important to the lives of the people of Northern Ireland, especially bearing in mind that many innocent people’s lives were taken to preserve our position within the United Kingdom. They were murdered because they believed in that reality.

However, before noble Lords today is a provision of reality. I therefore accept it. I regret only the limit to the designated days, because I would be delighted if our flag was flown across this United Kingdom every day and was looked on not as something divisive, but in acknowledgement of the great blessings and benefits it has brought to the people of all Northern Ireland.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, is not what the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, just said the civic ideal? Both flags could fly and it would not be an issue. I often think we are too prescriptive and ready to ban things. Surely the ideal of civil liberalism is not a world in which things are banned, but a world in which things are allowed and are not a problem. I used to think the same when we were having rows about the Orange walks and parades. The liberal ideal is not one in which they do not happen, but one in which they happen and no one is bothered by them. In the same way, would it not be a wonderful world if, for example when we were having the row about the flag over Belfast City Hall, one side said, “Do you know what? We didn’t know it meant that much to you. Go ahead”, and the other side said, “We didn’t want to upset you. Do you know what? We’ll be moderate and judicious”?

Of course, we are some way from that, but these regulations, bringing Northern Ireland in line with the rest of the country so that we have the same fundamental rules in the four home nations, are a step towards that civic ideal where we can all stand before flags—let me end, in a unifying spirit, with a quote from WB Yeats—

“Nor dazzled by the embroidery, nor lost

In … its night-dark folds”.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have a few words to say on this Bill. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on getting his first Bill through Parliament, and for the very polite way in which he dealt with all the questions and so on. I thank, too, the shadow Front-Bench Members for their willingness to meet some of us who had concerns about aspects of the Bill.

I have to say that the Library did not even have a copy of New Decade, New Approach. It is a very detailed agreement, and of course the Bill deals only with a small part of it; it does not deal with the most crucial part facing Northern Ireland at the moment, where officially the Government were meant to legislate on Northern Ireland’s businesses to guarantee unfettered access. That is part of New Decade, New Approach, so let us not kid ourselves that it has been put through; these are the bits which seem to be able to get through very quickly. Yet even on 14 January, the noble Lord, Lord Caine, sent a letter saying that he was putting forward an amendment to allow the same situation so there would not be a cliff edge when a Member of the Assembly was elected to this Parliament, and they could stay to the end of their term. That suddenly got dropped.

This may all look like it is sweetness and light, but I have to warn noble Lords that Northern Ireland is in a very difficult situation. This is a sticking plaster of a Bill for the situation in Northern Ireland; we have a system of government that is totally different from any other part of the United Kingdom and would not be tolerated in any other part of the United Kingdom. That needs to be said.

This week we may well see real difficulty because now, legally, it has more or less been proved, and will be proved later in the week, that the Northern Ireland Executive should have taken a decision and formally agreed to have checks at the Irish Sea border that has been set up. This has not happened, therefore later on this week we will probably see the Northern Ireland Executive having to take a decision one way or another on that, which will be extremely interesting.

We have also had another meeting between the Foreign Secretary and Šefčovič, with a similar outcome. They just repeat the same statement every time: “Further talks today”, “Constructive atmosphere”, “Teams continue intensive discussions.” This cannot go on. This House needs to face up to reality: Northern Ireland is in a very difficult position and it needs to be helped by being part of the United Kingdom and by your Lordships. Having said that, I accept that the Bill is going through, and I welcome those parts of it that I agree with.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, on behalf of my colleagues, I express appreciation to the Minister for the courtesy and the engagement that we have had during the progress of the Bill. I agree with the noble Baroness on how the Bill is a small sticking plaster over a major wound that is still in Northern Ireland politics. That gaping wound is the Northern Ireland protocol, which is causing untold damage, both constitutionally and economically, to the Province. That is not acceptable; however, I accept that the Bill is passing in this House today.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

Twenty years ago, indeed. The agreement itself, which is the basis for the Assembly, from 20 years ago, was the basis for the Civic Forum as well. The puzzle is how it has been possible to talk about implementation of the agreement and not talk about something that was voted on and supported in a referendum. I just flag that up.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has nearly 500 councillors, 18 MPs, 90 MLAs and Members of the House of Lords. We would need another tier of advisers. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said about knowing how the forum would operate because it has operated in the past. However, I suggest to noble Lords that we did not know how members were appointed because the same grouping of people seems to be appointed to whatever body is going to be thought of next. It never widens out to Johnny Citizen; it seems to be that same stratum of people.

At a time when we have no money for health, education, agriculture or roads—they are nothing but potholes; we cannot get tar and we cannot get them properly looked after—we would like to expend more money on having people travelling around the countryside on an extra body. I suggest to the Minister that now is not the time to be spending more money on another tier. Spending money on many of the things that the people of Northern Ireland are crying out for, whether that be education, health, agriculture or the environment, would be a better use of public finance.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, the Civic Forum may certainly have been a good idea 20 years ago, but I am not too sure that it would work in today’s politics. I remember the forum. In fact, on occasions it was in opposition to much of the work that the Assembly was doing at the time.

I am not too sure that it worked that well 20 years ago. I am not sure it represented all shades of opinion out there, and there were issues around some of the people who were appointed and how they were appointed. It goes along with the serving and all of that. Now it would be wrong to add a further layer of government in Northern Ireland, with everything else that is going on.

We can argue whether or not the Civic Forum did a good job while it was there, but when I look back those 20 years, I am not too sure that it exactly helped politics in Northern Ireland or helped the Assembly to move on, because, as I have said, on fairly major issues it was almost in opposition to the Assembly and the work that it was doing then, during a very difficult period. I am not too sure that a civic forum would work in the present-day politics of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Caine, to his ministerial office and wish him well. I have no doubt concerning his unionist credentials and know that he will treat everyone in this House with respect and integrity.

Having listened carefully to the debate thus far, I wish to make a short intervention. The legislation before us today is to deliver some aspects of the New Decade, New Approach deal, which was agreed when the Executive was formed and the Assembly returned in January 2020. The New Decade, New Approach deal was to be a package of measures that were to be implemented simultaneously. However, it seems that the Government wish to cherry pick parts and cast aside others at their pleasure.

Devolution in Northern Ireland has been seriously undermined in recent months. Indeed, many view the devolution settlement as thrashed by actions in this House and the other place when very sensitive matters that were clearly devolved issues were legislated for, over the heads of the elected representatives of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the people of Northern Ireland. This was done on the first occasion under the disguise and pretence that the Northern Ireland Assembly was not functioning. Indeed, legislation was hastened through Westminster because the Assembly was about to be reconvened, and it was perceived that the legislation promised to appease Sinn Féin/IRA would not get through the Assembly’s democratic process.

However, this was not the only time the devolution settlement was violated. It happened at the whim of the Government, aided and abetted by the opposition parties in this House and the other Chamber, to appease the republican demands of Sinn Féin. So much so that many in Northern Ireland, including the original architects of the Belfast agreement, now believe that it has been seriously breached, most recently under the protocol deal with Europe, a protocol that grievously undermines Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom.

The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said that the protocol is not consistent with the principle of consent enshrined in the Belfast agreement. Indeed, he said the Irish Sea border demolishes the key premise of the 1998 Belfast agreement and rips the heart out of it. This is in spite of the assurances from Europe, London, America and so on, and even in this House, that nothing will or can be done to undermine the Belfast agreement. What they really mean is that nothing must be done to upset Sinn Féin, as its demands are of paramount importance. They are about to add to this with a cultural deal made over the heads of the people of Northern Ireland, once again taking away from the authority of the Northern Ireland Assembly. This is in spite of the Prime Minister’s promises that

“nothing will affect the position of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. We will make sure that we uphold that.”—[Official Report, Commons, 30/6/21; cols. 263-64.]

Time is running out for the Government to reverse the mistakes of the Northern Ireland protocol. The majority community within Northern Ireland are not willing to allow their constitutional rights to be scrapped to appease republican-leaning politicians in Europe. Under the Belfast agreement, the people of Northern Ireland were promised that they alone through the ballot box would have the final say concerning the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. In recent opinion polls, it is clearly evident that the vast majority right across the community cherish Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom, desire to remain a full and vibrant part of the United Kingdom and reject the republican vision of a united Ireland.

Yet under the protocol, this position is fundamentally changed. It is clear that the protocol is dismantling the union and the unionist majority are not willing to sit on the sidelines and permit this to happen. No unionist worth the name supports the protocol. It is time to take a stand. This Government had better listen to the will and wish of the people of Northern Ireland and remove the protocol, for it must go.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendments. Having spoken in support of the principle last week, I shall be brief.

It is fair to say that this and the previous group of amendments are based fundamentally on a problem of trust with the Government. The Minister has given us detailed assurances as far as he is able, but the words of the Northern Ireland protocol and the assurances given by the Prime Minister do not seem to square with the facts. Understandably, therefore, it is difficult for people in business to feel comfortable that “unfettered access” means what it says. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has indicated that there is a question over that. For example, being based in Northern Ireland, you may well have access to the Great Britain market but you may still have to fill in a customs declaration. That is a fetter and a tie, and it involves a cost. There is also the issue of at-risk goods, which may or may not cross other borders and will perhaps have to be separated out. That will involve an administrative cost and will be a problem. The Minister is fully aware that businesses in Northern Ireland—many of them small, as has been said—are facing Northern Ireland being half in and half out of both unions: half in and half out of the UK, and half in and half out of the EU. If anything is a recipe for confusion, that is it.

The point that the noble Baroness’s amendment makes is, given that in reality it looks as though there will be rules and regulations that change and that will have implications, what is required is a guarantee that businesses in Northern Ireland will be compensated or covered for that so that they will not be worse off. Many of us see a real intellectual challenge as to whether that is even practically achievable within the proposed framework. The Minister is not allowed to accept amendments to demonstrate good faith. He writes extremely detailed and genuinely constructive letters but they are not law, and that leaves us in this rather uncertain scenario.

To be absolutely blunt—I think that the Chancellor’s interview with the Financial Times last week made this clear—the hardliners are in charge. What is being practised is a hard Brexit and Northern Ireland is almost like a nut in a nutcracker. Many people feel that Northern Ireland is not the Government’s top priority in “getting Brexit done”: there is a worry that it is expendable.

The Minister needs to understand that behind these amendments is a genuine concern—even a fear—that all the assurances being given will be very difficult to square with the realities of the Brexit we will get, in terms of both how we withdraw and the future agreement. There needs to be a real and positive recognition that Northern Ireland cannot be left to be squeezed in between all that. If the United Kingdom means anything and if the commitments mean anything, Northern Ireland deserves those assurances, which is why these amendments have been tabled.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and those of my noble friends, to which I have added my name. The Minister knows that in discussions my colleagues and my party supported Brexit. We did so believing and agreeing that Northern Ireland would leave the EU on equal terms with the rest of the United Kingdom. However, what is proposed certainly does not do that.

Over the years, those running businesses in Northern Ireland have faced many challenges. Indeed, for 30 years they faced the bomb, and they did so with great courage. We ought to salute them in coming through those years of terror and tragedy. However, we had hoped that those challenges had been left behind and that the door would be open for prosperity. There was great hope for the future for the generations to come. However, we now find that businesses face further challenges.

I am reminded of the words in the document that was presented to the parties in Northern Ireland. In fact, I can still see the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Foreign Minister from the Irish Republic standing at Stormont presenting the document and practically saying, “Take it or leave it”. That document contains the clear statement that,

“we will legislate to guarantee unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the UK internal market, and ensure that this legislation is in force for 1 January 2021. The government will engage in detail with a restored Executive on measures to protect and strengthen the UK internal market.”

However, what is proposed does nothing of the sort.

I appreciate that the Minister did his best in the letter that he sent to us but there is no cast-iron guarantee that fulfils what is promised in that document, New Decade, New Approach. I listened very carefully to the debate that exercised many noble Lords a short while ago and noticed that the Northern Ireland protocol and the problems it has caused were emphasised over and over again. However, the reality is that that is because of the sorry state that the Government got themselves into when they negotiated the protocol, and now Northern Ireland is left as a pawn in the game.

Last week, the EU’s chief Commissioner confirmed the checks and controls between Britain and Northern Ireland under the agreement that will govern the UK’s exit from the EU. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has already mentioned, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his statement that there will not be regulatory alignment with the EU after Brexit and that firms will simply have to adjust. That throwaway statement is not worthy, bearing in mind the question of quite how businesses in Northern Ireland are simply to adjust. The small and medium-sized enterprises are left confused and deeply worried about the future.

Can the Minister categorically guarantee that there will not be a raft of checks and controls placed on the movement of goods to and from Northern Ireland and Great Britain? Does he acknowledge that, if any of these were a reality, there would be a barrier to trade and Northern Ireland businesses would be at a competitive disadvantage in both the internal UK market and the EU? Additional bureaucracy will only add to the financial burden placed upon those small and medium-sized businesses that are least able to afford it. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said, they have been the backbone of the Northern Ireland economy.