Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in his response at Second Reading, provided some clarity on this, indicating that there would be constraints and that cross-cutting issues would still have to go to the Executive for approval. But what happens if there is no First and Deputy First Minister in that period of interregnum? We are supposed to have collective responsibility. Issues are supposed to be taken on a partnership basis. I can remember many times when we did not necessarily have that partnership basis, so I agree with the amendment in the names of my noble friends Lady Smith and Lord Coaker.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to the period between 2017 and 2020. That was a time when civil servants were placed in an invidious position, with limited powers, which piled frustration and anxiety on the wider community. Those civil servants, because of their limited powers, could only take certain decisions. I can well recall the decision in court on the incinerator north of Belfast, where the judge’s judgment indicated that the civil servants had probably acted outwith their powers in this instance.

The Minister was, as I still am, a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. He will recall that the common frameworks came into place in the post-Brexit situation to deal with policy divergence in certain areas devolved to the DAs. Quite a significant amount was devolved to Northern Ireland, but no decisions were taken on those common frameworks during that three-year period because there were no Ministers in place to deal with that—there was no Northern Ireland Executive. The Minister will recall that we in our committee had great difficulty in trying to pursue those common frameworks to their final degree of approval, or to the next stage, where they could be examined with a greater degree of scrutiny. That illustrates the case where there is a need for full-time Ministers.

However, in that period of interregnum, where a Minister’s authority is being extended because of the nature of the difficulties in the Executive, what authority do they have and can that be prescribed in this legislation? Perhaps the Minister could provide us with more clarity and more detail today. If need be, will the Government consider tabling an amendment on Report to deal with this issue and specify the areas of authority?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the warm welcome from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. As my noble friend Lord Empey said to me after Second Reading, it all goes downhill from here. I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment and hope that my response will provide her with some clarity and sufficient reassurance over the role of caretaker Ministers under Clause 2.

It is worth reminding noble Lords of the central purpose of this clause. As noble Lords will recall, the Assembly and Executive ceased to function, in effect, following Martin McGuinness’s resignation in January 2017. As a consequence, Northern Ireland found itself in a state of political limbo, with limited or no decision-making, for nearly three years. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, I sincerely hope that we will never be in that situation again.

During the period while the Executive was not functioning, civil servants, as has been mentioned, were left trying to maintain the machinery of government and provide public services in the absence of ministerial decisions. Without the direction and control of Ministers, those civil servants were significantly limited in the powers that they exercised. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to differences of opinion between civil servants over which powers they could exercise and we all remember the court case over the incinerator in north Belfast, around 2018, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, referred. The noble Lord’s comments yet again underline the unsatisfactory nature of the situation in which we found ourselves.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, I am conscious that I speak to this group of amendments surrounded by a number of people who were directly responsible for the negotiation of the 1998 agreement. Like her, I pay tribute to them for an agreement which, as the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, mentioned, is not perfect but has been the bedrock of the relative peace, stability and progress that Northern Ireland has enjoyed over the past 23 years.

The noble Baroness mentioned wincing: I was probably wincing at the prospect of living up to the expectations of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, but I will endeavour to do my best and I am grateful to him for his kind words.

I thank my noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, for their amendments and the debate that they have generated around the shape of power-sharing and the appointment of the First and Deputy First Ministers. Personally, I am sympathetic to a number of the points that were made in the debate and I dare say that they will be raised again on many occasions in the future, but I respectfully suggest that the Bill is not necessarily the right vehicle in which to address them.

As noble Lords are aware—they will probably be tired of hearing me repeat this—the purpose of the Bill and the reason we are here today is to legislate for commitments made to support the institutions under the New Decade, New Approach deal. These amendments take us somewhat beyond that, even though the issues that they contain have been debated extensively in many talks processes over recent years.

I will discuss each amendment in turn but will make an overarching point. The basis for political progress in Northern Ireland, dating back to the 1990s, has been what is known as the sufficient consensus rule, which is that any important changes to institutions, including even the establishment of the institutions, require sufficient consensus, which means, in effect, the support of parties commanding a majority of unionism and a majority of nationalism. Although a number of proposals in the amendments on the Marshalled List have had significant support in recent talks processes, certainly the ones that I have been involved in, they have not reached that threshold of sufficient consensus in order to be enacted.

On Amendment 2, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, said that the intention was to restore the provision made under the Belfast agreement for the joint election by the Assembly of the First and Deputy First Ministers. I suggest that the amendment goes rather beyond what was agreed in 1998, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, picked up. The 1998 model, as noble Lords will know, appointed the First and Deputy First Ministers on a cross-community basis of parallel consent only, whereas the noble Baroness has included the further cross-community arrangement of a weighted majority of members present and voting. As I say, that goes somewhat beyond what was agreed in 1998.

Amendment 4, in the name of my noble friend Lord Empey, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, seeks to return the process back to the 1998 model set out in the Belfast agreement by reverting to the original wording of Section 16 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. My noble friend will not be surprised to hear me say that I have a huge amount of sympathy for both his amendment and his argument. I am on the record publicly as stating my own belief that the 1998 model was a better model than the one that was agreed at St Andrews. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, who negotiated that agreement, is not present today. I do not doubt for one second his good intentions in changing the appointment mechanism; I just personally believe that the 1998 model was a better one and more accurately reflected the joint nature of the office. So I have considerable sympathy with my noble friend.

However, as I said earlier, we have had discussions around this in the Stormont House negotiations, in the Fresh Start negotiations and in a number of the working groups that led to the New Decade, New Approach agreement. There has not yet been sufficient consensus to go back to the old model—the original model—so ably negotiated by my noble friends Lord Trimble and Lord Empey. I regret that but, unfortunately, and to borrow the phrase that I think the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, used on a previous occasion in this Room, we are where we are.

Amendment 3 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, provides that the First and Deputy First Ministers should be referred to as “Joint First Ministers”. Again, I have been involved in talks processes over the years where this issue has been raised, but there has not been sufficient consensus. The comments of my noble friend Lord Trimble suggest that there still is not sufficient agreement around this particular issue to change it, and certainly not in this Bill.

None of this is to say that the Government are opposed to change in the future. As I said at Second Reading, the Belfast agreement, while containing a number of enduring principles, has continued to evolve as a result of successor agreements. Where parties can reach widespread agreement on further changes, consistent with the underlying principles, the Government would be open to making those changes. However, I do not think that they are for this Bill, which is a very narrowly focused Bill to implement New Decade, New Approach, which was itself an important milestone in restoring devolved government in Northern Ireland. On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I also accept this amendment and declare an interest, in that I am a former MP and Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who served in both for a short time. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, that this amendment would prevent a cliff edge from happening, because those who are Members of the Assembly and of Parliament—and many of my colleagues were a Member of Parliament and then became a Member of the Assembly—brought with them a knowledge of legislative procedure. The Northern Ireland Assembly was very different from councils, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said. It was about bringing forward and scrutinising legislation so, in the early days, it was important to have people of experience there.

I am opposed to double-jobbing, but this amendment brings a transitional phase that would help the situation. I recall an election count for the Assembly in 2016, when my colleague Colin McGrath, who had been a member of Newry, Mourne and Down council, was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The chief executive of the council arrived at the same time as Colin McGrath was elected and asked for his letter of resignation and his computer to be handed over there and then. Whereupon Colin McGrath said, “That indicated that you thought I was going to be elected and it was very august of you to think that. But I am not in a position to do either of those things this evening. You will get them on Monday morning”.

What currently exists gives officials an upper hand, of which people may not have been aware, to execute their responsibilities and feel mighty important. I think there is a case for this amendment, in that it provides for the transitional phase, and allows for that essential knowledge to be carried through and for people to bed down while they transfer to their new situation in a fully pledged way. Then it allows for their replacements to be selected and take their place in the Assembly. It is all done not according to a list system, as it was originally, but from internal systems within parties. We are undergoing one in South Down at the minute, and they can cause consternation among friends and colleagues by creating unnecessary rivalry.

It is important that people concentrate on issues, legislation, scrutiny and investigation, rather than who is going to replace who. That is not good politics, in the truest sense of the word, and is not about service and delivery. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, would make sure of continuity in transition, and of concentration on legislation and the issues that matter to people and on which they expect their elected representatives to deliver for them.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for moving Amendment 5 on dual mandates. I am afraid my noble friend Lord Dodds knows me too well on this issue, because I am about to confess to a degree of mea culpa for putting us in this position in the first place. As my noble friend pointed out, the promise to stop the practice of double-jobbing or dual mandates was a commitment made in the 2010 Conservative and Unionist Northern Ireland manifesto, when my party and that of my noble friend Lord Empey put up joint candidates at the general election. I am afraid I actually drafted that section of the manifesto, along with a speech by David Cameron, given at La Mon House on the eve of the poll in 2010, in which he promised to end the scandal of double-jobbing. So my noble friend is absolutely correct.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Basildon and Lady Suttie, for the amendments in this group.

I shall begin with Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. I acknowledge the importance of civic engagement to politics in Northern Ireland and I recall that at times of political difficulty in the past civil society has played an important role in trying to move things forward. Indeed, in the discussions that ultimately led to New Decade, New Approach, there was a body called “Make it Work”, which was a collection of people from across civil society in Northern Ireland. It had a positive impact on the political debate, bringing about a situation in which, eventually, the institutions were re-established.

However, I gently suggest to the noble Baroness that, interesting as her amendment is, using the ministerial code, which essentially deals with ministerial behaviour, as a vehicle for pushing forward policy outcomes and for public policy purposes might not be appropriate.

As the noble Baroness pointed out, we all know that the Civic Forum provided for in the 1998 agreement and the 1998 Act last met in 2002. Since then, various proposals have been put forward to revive it or something akin to it. The Stormont House agreement, in which I was involved seven years ago, almost to the day, proposed a more compact civic advisory panel. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, made clear, New Decade, New Approach proposed that that the existing compact civic advisory panel be reformed to include a renewed membership appointed by way of a public appointments process within six months of the Executive returning. This panel, whenever it is established, will be invited to propose the most appropriate model of engagement on specific issues, including one citizens’ assembly a year.

Having listened to the debate and taken on board the contributions of noble Lords across the Committee, including the noble Lords, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hay of Ballyore, and my noble friend Lord Lexden—who I am delighted to see in his place today, as he interviewed me for my first job 34 years ago in the Conservative research department—I note that this is a matter on which there are clearly differences of opinion.

In summary, I hope that the Executive will make progress on what was agreed in New Decade, New Approach. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, about the time that has elapsed since the re-establishment of the Executive. These are primarily matters for the Executive. I should also point out that the Civic Forum is already legislated for in Section 56 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, so I am not sure that further legislation in this respect is required when it is already on the statute book. On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to consider withdrawing her amendment.

Amendment 7, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, seeks to change the definition of “cross-community support” in a way that goes beyond the proposals to reform the petition of concern in New Decade, New Approach, although I appreciate that the noble Baroness’s purpose in tabling the amendment is to have a broader debate on designations in the Assembly. That was brought out in noble Lords’ contributions. I point out that, if we were to move to the model as drafted in her amendment, it would give a small minority of MLAs who designate themselves “other” a veto across a wide range of Assembly business and, indeed, could almost paralyse the entire functioning of the Assembly. While I appreciate that these are important matters for debate, the amendment would be defective in operation.

I also appreciate that the current system of designation has not always been universally popular or accepted. In her comments, the noble Baroness reflected the long-standing position of the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland, which has consistently argued, over many years, that the designation system institutionalises sectarianism. It has proposed a move away from that and the introduction of weighed majorities, along with a move away from mandatory coalition to a more voluntary arrangement.

Whatever the merits of these—and one thing I am not going to do is speculate on the possible outcome of the Assembly election in May—the noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear me say that they are not changes that this House can unilaterally make during the passage of this Bill. At the time of the 1998 agreement, the current arrangements were considered the best way to secure cross-community consent for legislation. If, in the future, there should be sufficient consensus—I return to that phrase time and again—to move away from the current designation system to an updated model, we would be happy to look again at this question, but I suggest that this is not quite the moment and urge the noble Baroness not to move her amendment.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. Indeed, my amendment is probing. I think I said at the beginning that all the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Coaker are probing amendments to tease out a bit more of the Government’s thinking on a number of these issues. That has not always been easy, and I am grateful to the Minister for taking the time to respond. Had the Minister in the House of Commons responded on this point when it was put to him, we would not have felt the need to raise it today.

For us, this is an issue about trust and engagement in the political process, which all want to see improved across the UK. There are certainly areas where it is lacking. As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, would say, too often it is the usual subjects. The whole point of something like this is to try to avoid the usual subjects and to reach out to people who do not always feel that their voice is heard, but have a contribution to make. That is something for which we should all strive at different times, however we are engaged in political life and at whatever level.

I am grateful to the Minister. It was never my intention to push this further, but it is useful to get the Government’s thinking and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for her manuscript amendments. Obviously, she referred to a number of arguments that are currently being considered by the courts and on which I have no intention of commenting today. As my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn generously pointed out, this amendment only came in this afternoon, so I hope noble Lords will forgive me that I have not had the opportunity to study it in detail or discuss it more broadly within the department.

The protocol came up extensively at Second Reading and, on that occasion, I set out the Government’s position on this issue. It is clear that in the construction and implementation of the protocol we have seen a diversion of trade, burdens on business, an impact on consumers and how it has affected confidence in the Belfast agreement and its institutions throughout the community. The irony is not lost that a protocol that was designed primarily to support and uphold the 1998 agreement now risks undermining it.

As I also pointed out at Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Frost is currently engaged in intensive negotiations with the European Commission on a number of the problems I have referred to arising from the protocol. As he has made clear to the House on a number of occasions, while progress has been made there still remain substantial gaps. The Government’s hope and intention is that these differences can be resolved through agreement; that is our clear preference. If that is not possible, then we will take whatever steps we feel are necessary to safeguard not just the interests of Northern Ireland but the United Kingdom as a whole, because the protocol impacts the whole of the UK and not just one part of it.

I assure both the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn that the Government are firmly of the view that any solution to the issues arising from the protocol can be lasting only if it has democratic support from across the community in Northern Ireland, ensuring a balanced settlement which is sustainable in the long term. As my noble friend has made clear, the current arrangements are not sustainable, and he is trying to address that issue.

Beyond that, I am not in a position to say a great deal more. At the risk of repetition, this Bill is primarily about implementing New Decade, New Approach, which was instrumental in securing the re-establishment of the devolved institutions after the hugely frustrating period from 2017 to 2020. I respectfully suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, that we should press on with passing this Bill, allow my noble friend Lord Frost to press on with his negotiations and secure the right outcome for Northern Ireland. In the meantime, I urge her to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Dodds, Lord Trimble and Lord Morrow. All noble Lords here should be concerned about the seriousness of the situation in Northern Ireland; it will not get better if the protocol stays. As we have said many times, in the end the Government have to choose between the Belfast agreement and the protocol. Of course, the Belfast agreement is now being fractured—I think that is the word. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I am assuming, perhaps wrongly, that those who did not speak are in agreement or have been thinking so carefully about it all that they will come back on Report. I thank the Minister because the amendment was tabled this morning and I appreciate that he may not have seen it until later in the day. Obviously Members need to look at it, study it and think about it.

Normal dealings in Northern Ireland are not going to continue unless this is sorted. We can no longer ignore it. It is not going to go away. We are wasting our time with the New Decade, New Approach if this is not sorted. Things will get very difficult indeed. In view of what the Minister has said, I hope that he will go away and perhaps discuss the amendment with the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and other members of the Government, including the Prime Minister, and that by the time we get to Report we may have a different view and a different outcome in terms of what can be put on the Order Paper. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Lexden (Con)]

I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, with whom I find myself in agreement on a range of issues and not only those relating to Northern Ireland. He has brought forward an extremely important amendment in the interests of the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In this Parliament, we need to know how the long list of commitments that the noble Lord outlined and that have been entered into by the Government are progressing. This is vital information for securing the proper working of the partnership between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There has been much talk of partnership within Northern Ireland, but the union is itself a great partnership and this Parliament needs to be kept properly informed about its progress.

I noted one point about the commitments when they were first brought forward at the beginning of 2020, which was the establishment of a joint UK/Northern Ireland board, to which reference has already been made. Oral Questions that I put down a little while ago revealed that the board had come into existence and had had a first meeting. Its continued meetings are vital to ensuring the success of what has been agreed. My noble friend kindly made reference to me earlier, saying that I had given him a helping hand some 30 years ago—a helping hand that I do not regret in any way—but I hope that, in replying, he might be able to say a little more about this board, which clearly occupies a central position in the matters that we have been discussing under this amendment.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for these amendments. If I may, I will on this occasion take them in reverse order.

As I mentioned at Second Reading, the Bill follows the standard practice of allowing two months before provisions come into effect following Royal Assent. However, I have listened to the arguments and I am very happy to repeat the assurance I gave the noble Baroness at Second Reading that we will go away and return to this matter on Report. She has my assurance on that point.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. He raised a number of important points about the implementation of the agreement. He reeled off, if I may say, quite a long list from Annex A—

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Not all of it.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

No, not all of it, but I hope he will forgive me if I do not reply in detail to each and every point. I will look at Hansard and write to him on any that I have missed.

The noble Lord was particularly focused on a number of the financial commitments. I can tell him that, thus far, the Government have allocated over £700 million of the £2 billion funding in New Decade, New Approach, which had the impact of ending the nurses’ pay dispute he referred to in his comments. As I mentioned at Second Reading, we have already contributed towards the creation of the Northern Ireland graduate-entry medical school in Londonderry and supplemented the new deal for Northern Ireland with £400 million to promote Northern Ireland as a cybersecurity hub. The noble Lord referred to the fiscal council, which has been established. It was originally a commitment in the fresh start agreement, which was repeated in New Decade, New Approach. That has been established.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Could I invite my noble friend to tell us a little about the fiscal council, how it is composed and the work it is going to do?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My understanding is that the council is chaired by Robert Chote who, my noble friend will recall, ran the Office for Budget Responsibility. It is a similar body, and will comment on the Executive’s budget and spending plans. One benefit of the financial settlement that was set out in the spending review is that—this is currently being negotiated—Northern Ireland is able to get away from the in-year or single-year spending reviews that have been particularly frustrating in recent years. It can now move to a proper, three-year spending review that will provide greater financial stability and certainty. That was welcomed by the fiscal council in a report I looked at, which was published only a couple of weeks ago. This is an important development that will improve not just financial stability but scrutiny of the Executive’s spending plans.

My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, also referred to the joint board. I am advised that it has now met on three occasions, and the Government are committed to maintaining that forum as a means for the UK Government and the Executive to discuss the implementation of many of the commitments in New Decade, New Approach. I hope that reassures my noble friend on both the fiscal council and the joint board, as this work is ongoing and will continue.

I mentioned the spending review. As I said at Second Reading, the settlement in the spending review is the most generous that Northern Ireland, or any of the devolved Administrations, have received since devolution was established in 1998-99.

There are a great many other commitments. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, mentioned the centenary fund, which has benefited from £1 million of UK Government money. There is a host of other non-financial commitments that have not required legislation, some of which I referred to at Second Reading, such as the appointment of the veterans’ commissioner and regulations to bring the flying of the union flag into line with those of the rest of the United Kingdom. They came into force in December 2020 and are a development that I am sure many noble Lords welcome. We have introduced legislation to further enshrine the Armed Forces covenant in law and appointed an advisory committee for the establishment of a Castlereagh foundation, the case for which DUP and UUP Members have long pressed. We have provided £50 million to support low-carbon transport in Northern Ireland, enabling the Infrastructure Minister to announce a new fleet of 145 low-carbon buses for Belfast and the north-west.