Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

1: Clause 2, page 2, line 35, leave out subsection (3)
Member’s explanatory statement
This is a probing amendment, to probe what powers will be available to a Minister who remains in office for the provided period of up to 24 weeks, or 48 weeks, following an Assembly election.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to what is probably his first Committee on a Bill in his new position. I am sure he will enjoy the experience in the Moses Room.

This is a probing amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Coaker about an issue that I raised at Second Reading. Clause 2 advises that Ministers will no longer cease to hold office after the election of a new Assembly, and provides for a maximum of 24 weeks after an election, or 48 weeks since there has been an Executive in place, whichever is the shorter, in which Ministers may continue to hold office. We support the clause, but it would be helpful to have some guidance and clarity from the Minister on this issue.

I appreciate that some of this was first mentioned by Karen Bradley when she was Secretary of State back in 2018, when the Northern Ireland Civil Service was taken to court because it was felt that civil servants had exceeded their powers in taking decisions without ministerial direction. There has to be a way through that. When I lost my seat in 2010, I remained a Minister, but only for five days. You could say that under direct rule the situation was self-limiting for those of us who were Ministers, as we were not elected by anyone in Northern Ireland in terms of what we were able to do. The key question raised at Second Reading was what powers these caretaker Ministers will have and if there is any limit on those powers. In a number of areas there is a lack of clarity.

I was surprised by the comment made in the House of Commons by the Minister, who said that the courts will be able to deal with this. He said:

“given that legal safeguards are already in place”,

there is no need for additional statutory clarity, and:

“We also know that the courts are ready to step in, should Ministers act unlawfully.”—[Official Report, Commons, Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill Committee, 6/7/21; col. 70.]


I am not clear what a Minister “acting unlawfully” would be or where the limits would be. If the decisions taken are going to be controversial, some decisions can be delayed, but depending on where they are in the cycle of that decision-making process or when the Executive are likely to be up and running again, there may be quite a time lag.

It is better to know at this stage where the balance is and what the Government’s thinking is. Clearly, to have ministerial accountability is significantly better than leaving civil servants in the position where they are trying to make decisions without any ministerial direction, but I am really not sure where the Government think the clarity is. What is the point at which Ministers could not take a decision? It could be that a Minister had lost their seat or decided not to stand again, but remained a Minister. Where are the limitations on ministerial power if they are a caretaker Minister? I beg to move.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on this issue, it is an important area that deserves greater clarification.

We all remember the period when Northern Ireland was deliberately left ungoverned and civil servants had the most difficult task of all: having to keep their departments ticking over with no real precedent for any guidance as to the extent of their decision-making powers. Some Permanent Secretaries went a little further than others. I remember speaking to one particular Permanent Secretary who indicated that there was a live debate continued among the Permanent Secretaries as to the extent of their powers, and at one stage whether they should be doing some of the things that they were doing in the absence of political guidance. There was certainly a difference in emphasis.

We need to understand, and perhaps the Minister could clarify, what in essence the difference will be between the sorts of decisions that civil servants were taking during the period that we all know about, the three-year interregnum where there were no Ministers, and the decisions that Ministers in these circumstances will be able to take. Could he, for instance, give me a concrete example of a decision that a Minister could take as a caretaker under this that a civil servant could not have taken? I would imagine that they are pretty limited.

There has been reference to carrying on with the decisions that have been made by the Executive in the run-up to caretaker Ministers being in place and that such Ministers should follow the trajectory of the Executive in decision-making going forward. Thinking of the current circumstances regarding the Budget, which appears not to have found agreement in Northern Ireland—there is apparently some limited agreement on the priorities within it, but not all departmental allocations—yet it is out for consultation. What would an interim Finance Minister be able to do in such circumstances? A certain amount of guidance would have been given to him in this situation, but not any kind of final decisions on allocations. So, again, it is not an entirely academic hypothesis that a Finance Minister could find himself in such a position as a caretaker with the Budget in this kind of condition.

I know these are difficult circumstances, and we are trying to find a balance between having no governance and leaving the Province in some kind of sensible situation when it comes to governance in the absence of a full Executive, but I would be grateful if the Minister could try to address those particular issues.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. I hope that it works in practice. My greatest fear is that if we do not have adequate clarity now, there could be some confusion or conflict later on, which is exactly what the Bill seeks to avoid, but I do not intend to pursue my amendment at this stage. I am not 100% certain that it is absolute guidance, but I am confident that it is significantly better than where we are at present. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

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[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I support, in general terms, the amendments that have been proposed by my noble friends and by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. They carry me back to past events. I was the first First Minister when Seamus and I were elected. We both regarded it as very important that we should be elected jointly, because that would carry to the public the image and the reality that we were going to work together and with due regard to the views of the various parties. Consequently, I am very much in favour of returning to that. In the circumstances, I would be pleasantly surprised if the Government did so, and it would be a good thing for them to do.

I have some reservations about the references in Amendment 3 to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister as “Joint First Ministers”. They have the same powers, but the difference in terminology is a matter of who goes first into a room and who speaks first. It is a formal matter. The Lib Dems’ representative in the Commons may not realise that precedence matters. I leave you to reflect on that. Precedence matters, and speaking first makes a difference, even if you are speaking on the same subjects.

Some of the other things that have been mentioned in passing here reminded me of when we were in office later and could see that the opinions of the electorate were shifting. We were thinking about the position of Sinn Féin, so we quietly sent a little message to Sinn Féin saying that it should reflect on whether it could provide a Deputy First Minister who would be acceptable to the public. I notice that it has followed that in the way in which it has handled things in the Assembly.

As to the points from the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about what might happen on or after an election, just wait and see. Do not jump to conclusions in the way you are at the moment, because it is not particularly useful.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise only briefly on this issue to concur with some of the comments that have been made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said, there is always some hesitation on the part of those who were not there to revisit some of these issues. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, made a point about those who compromised and found that the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was not perfect. Perfection can often be the enemy of any progress at all, so I have enormous admiration for those who were able to compromise to reach what has been a long-standing and impressive agreement. Along with others who have spoken, I put on record my tributes to those who were mentioned.

I saw the Minister wince slightly when the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, talked about how much more confidence he has that there may be some progress on various issues now that the Minister is there. My only comment is: no pressure there then. I could tell him not to worry about it, because this is an issue where people want to and can find agreement, and there is always good will in the discussions. I remember, during direct rule, when I took over from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that he was nothing but courteous and helpful to me when I was making my way as a Minister in Northern Ireland.

We are very supportive of what the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, and the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan, are trying to achieve with these amendments. There is value to a more consensual approach to this, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, outlined, but I suspect the Minister will say that this discussion is for outside this Bill, because the Bill is to progress issues in the NDNA. Nevertheless, I think there is an opportunity for the Minister to reflect on the comments that have been made. Even if they are not for this Bill, there could and should be discussions on them to see if further progress can be made and if there are benefits to taking such an approach.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I am listening intently to this debate and I am beginning to wonder if I live in Northern Ireland at all or if I lived there during the making of the Belfast agreement. We have heard all the woes being poured on to the St Andrews agreement. That is unkind to say the least. If politics has been—and it is—sectarianised in Northern Ireland, it was the Belfast agreement that did that. The Belfast agreement said, “You must nominate as a unionist or a nationalist”. That did not come out of St Andrews; it was the brainchild of the Belfast agreement.

Furthermore, during the early stages of the Government and the Assembly in Northern Ireland, it was all stop-go. The Assembly was more in abeyance than it was working at that time. It has to be said—I am not sure that it gives me a lot of pleasure to say it—that during the time when Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness were First and Deputy First Ministers there was more cohesion within the Assembly and it had a longer duration of continued government. It was also Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness who had to stand together and condemn the shooting of a police officer by dissident republicans. Those of us who live there can well remember that. Those were extremely difficult times. If there ever was a time when government could have fallen apart, it was at that time, but it was due to the influence of Peter Robinson and the late Martin McGuinness that government continued, though not without difficulties.

I hasten to add that I do not think there will ever come a day when anyone, irrespective of what position they take, can stand confidently and say, “The Assembly is here for ever and a day.” I have said that often in public meetings. It is the type of animal that is going to be always trying and will come through its difficulties. But please do not say that all the problems emanate from the St Andrews agreement. That remark does not sit well at all.

There are those who want to blame some other exercise for the position that the Assembly finds itself in from time to time. Decommissioning has been mentioned. We, and those who wanted to listen, were told that the release of republican prisoners was never in the agreement. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was the closest to it when he said that he had conditioned it by saying that if that had to happen—I do not want to misquote him—then it was on the proviso that the weaponry that was used would be decommissioned and put away. Let me say this clearly: when decommissioning did not happen and the prisoners were released, we were told that that was never signed up to. Let us not paint a picture that was not real at that time. I know that, when you look back on these things with hindsight, you can think things through and say, “Well, we should have done this and we should have done that.” Maybe we are all in that position from time to time, but let us not paint it as if it was something different.

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Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

6: Clause 4, page 5, line 34, at end insert “, including by supporting the establishment of the consultative Civic Forum, as provided for under paragraph 34 of Strand One of the Belfast Agreement, and obtaining its views on social, economic and cultural matters;”
Member’s explanatory statement
This would add the re-establishment of a consultative Civic Forum for Northern Ireland, to enable the Assembly to obtain views on social, economic and cultural matters as envisaged in the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998, to the matters that Ministers must have regard to under the Ministerial code.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this is another probing amendment, which I hope the Minister will look on favourably. The amendment requires Ministers to consider the re-establishment of the Civic Forum for Northern Ireland as one of the issues

“that Ministers must have regard to under the Ministerial code.”

Noble Lords will be aware that the Civic Forum was provided for by strand 1 of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. At the time it comprised representatives of business, trade unions and the voluntary sector. I believe the voluntary sector was the largest part, with 18 members. There were members from agriculture and fisheries, arts and sports, business, the churches, community relations, culture, education, trade unions and also those who identified as victims of terrorism. It met 12 times in total between 2000 and 2002; then, of course, the institutions were suspended.

We raised this at Second Reading in looking at parts of the Good Friday agreement where, despite good intentions and agreements that were made, those agreements have not been fulfilled. That comes back to the point we were discussing earlier on New Decade, New Approach. It is difficult when agreement is reached but the implementation becomes somewhat elusive at some point, as I know noble Lords will be aware.

There is an opportunity, when people get disillusioned with politics—and Northern Ireland’s politics are perhaps more difficult than those anywhere else in the UK at times—for communities and the public to engage better with issues and debates, particularly when issues are cross-community or there are community differences, to have a full discussion and debate without any time constraints or legislation, just to look at things and talk things through. It is about engagement. When trust in politics is low—particularly, as we have seen, with Christmas parties and other issues—anything that engages people to understand and be part of the process, even slightly at arm’s length, can be an advantage.

When this was debated in the other place, my colleague Alex Davies-Jones said:

“The Good Friday agreement was about a new participative politics.”


The Minister will be aware that

“The argument the Women’s Coalition put forward for a civic forum was as an advisory second chamber”—

not unlike your Lordships’ House, but perhaps with even less authority than your Lordships’ House—

“designed to give the trade union movement and businesses, as well as the community and the women’s movement, a place in political policy making. The prize of that expertise and knowledge is a durable solution that keeps communities on board, one that I hope will be considered going forward.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 169.]

When it was debated in the other place, the Minister did not respond to this or give any answer. I am raising it today is in the hope that the Minister will have something more to say about this and any views the Government may have. I raise this as quite often in government thinking—I exclude the Minister from this entirely—Northern Ireland has been an afterthought. We saw it with Brexit; people did not fully realise the implications for Northern Ireland and it was never talked about during the whole Brexit debate, as we will probably hear about later. There is a need for leadership and proactive interest in Northern Ireland. Looking at issues such as reinstating the Civic Forum could be extremely beneficial. I really want to test where the Minister, on behalf of the Government, is on this one.

We will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and I do not want to pre-empt anything she will say. However, looking at her amendment, which I am sure she will speak to in a moment, there is quite an interesting debate. If you look at the current designations in the Assembly, there are 40 unionists, 39 nationalists and 11 other, and it is quite possible that in the future a different kind of balance could be returned. I want to listen to what she has to say on this, but the general question of designations, how they work and what that means for power-sharing is a worthwhile discussion for your Lordships to be having and indeed for the Minister to respond to. I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness has to say and to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 7 in my name is intended, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, just said, as a probing amendment designed to give the Committee the opportunity to discuss the issue of designations. As I said previously, perhaps in response to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, I talk about some of these issues with a degree of hesitancy when there is quite so much experience in the Room. However, as someone who has been following Northern Ireland politics now for several years, I none the less feel that these are issues worthy of debate. I also declare an interest as a member of the Northern Ireland Alliance Party.

As noble Lords will know, under the Assembly’s standing orders one of the very first things Members of the Assembly are required to do is to enter in the roll a designation of identity: nationalist, unionist or other—my colleagues in the Alliance Party always have to put themselves in as “other”. Designations are required for the operation of cross-community votes in the Assembly. Cross-community support is required for a number of matters in the Assembly, including the election of the Speaker, changing the standing orders, and agreeing that a reserved matter should become a transferred matter and vice versa. However, the operation of cross-community votes means that the votes of some Assembly Members count twice, whereas others count only once. Under the current calculations, the votes of nationalist and unionist MLAs count twice. If an MLA is designated as other, their vote counts only in determining either the support of the majority of Members or the support of 60% of Members voting.

Why is that important? It is not just that there is an inherent unfairness in the system as I have described it but I believe there is also a broader principle at stake; that is, more than 20 years after the signing of the 1998 agreement, why are we continuing with a system that perpetuates divisions, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said, rather than creating a system that brings people together? In speaking to my friends in Northern Ireland, many of whom are political but some of whom are not, I am increasingly struck by the desire for a united society where everyone is treated equally, and yet the Assembly continues to represent institutionalised division through the outdated designation system. Northern Ireland has moved on considerably since the Good Friday/Belfast agreement was signed. Increasingly, a growing number of people do not want to be identified by community backgrounds. Northern Ireland society is becoming more mixed and more diverse. If we want seriously to increase participation in Northern Ireland politics, particularly from those with ethnic backgrounds, and make Northern Ireland politics more diverse, we should recognise that those who are not traditional unionists or nationalists are not second-class.

I am sure that the Minister will say that once again this is beyond the scope of the Bill. None the less, the purpose of this probing amendment is to ask the question: when do we think that politics in Northern Ireland can begin to normalise and move forward?

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Basildon and Lady Suttie, for the amendments in this group.

I shall begin with Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. I acknowledge the importance of civic engagement to politics in Northern Ireland and I recall that at times of political difficulty in the past civil society has played an important role in trying to move things forward. Indeed, in the discussions that ultimately led to New Decade, New Approach, there was a body called “Make it Work”, which was a collection of people from across civil society in Northern Ireland. It had a positive impact on the political debate, bringing about a situation in which, eventually, the institutions were re-established.

However, I gently suggest to the noble Baroness that, interesting as her amendment is, using the ministerial code, which essentially deals with ministerial behaviour, as a vehicle for pushing forward policy outcomes and for public policy purposes might not be appropriate.

As the noble Baroness pointed out, we all know that the Civic Forum provided for in the 1998 agreement and the 1998 Act last met in 2002. Since then, various proposals have been put forward to revive it or something akin to it. The Stormont House agreement, in which I was involved seven years ago, almost to the day, proposed a more compact civic advisory panel. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, made clear, New Decade, New Approach proposed that that the existing compact civic advisory panel be reformed to include a renewed membership appointed by way of a public appointments process within six months of the Executive returning. This panel, whenever it is established, will be invited to propose the most appropriate model of engagement on specific issues, including one citizens’ assembly a year.

Having listened to the debate and taken on board the contributions of noble Lords across the Committee, including the noble Lords, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hay of Ballyore, and my noble friend Lord Lexden—who I am delighted to see in his place today, as he interviewed me for my first job 34 years ago in the Conservative research department—I note that this is a matter on which there are clearly differences of opinion.

In summary, I hope that the Executive will make progress on what was agreed in New Decade, New Approach. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, about the time that has elapsed since the re-establishment of the Executive. These are primarily matters for the Executive. I should also point out that the Civic Forum is already legislated for in Section 56 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, so I am not sure that further legislation in this respect is required when it is already on the statute book. On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to consider withdrawing her amendment.

Amendment 7, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, seeks to change the definition of “cross-community support” in a way that goes beyond the proposals to reform the petition of concern in New Decade, New Approach, although I appreciate that the noble Baroness’s purpose in tabling the amendment is to have a broader debate on designations in the Assembly. That was brought out in noble Lords’ contributions. I point out that, if we were to move to the model as drafted in her amendment, it would give a small minority of MLAs who designate themselves “other” a veto across a wide range of Assembly business and, indeed, could almost paralyse the entire functioning of the Assembly. While I appreciate that these are important matters for debate, the amendment would be defective in operation.

I also appreciate that the current system of designation has not always been universally popular or accepted. In her comments, the noble Baroness reflected the long-standing position of the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland, which has consistently argued, over many years, that the designation system institutionalises sectarianism. It has proposed a move away from that and the introduction of weighed majorities, along with a move away from mandatory coalition to a more voluntary arrangement.

Whatever the merits of these—and one thing I am not going to do is speculate on the possible outcome of the Assembly election in May—the noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear me say that they are not changes that this House can unilaterally make during the passage of this Bill. At the time of the 1998 agreement, the current arrangements were considered the best way to secure cross-community consent for legislation. If, in the future, there should be sufficient consensus—I return to that phrase time and again—to move away from the current designation system to an updated model, we would be happy to look again at this question, but I suggest that this is not quite the moment and urge the noble Baroness not to move her amendment.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. Indeed, my amendment is probing. I think I said at the beginning that all the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Coaker are probing amendments to tease out a bit more of the Government’s thinking on a number of these issues. That has not always been easy, and I am grateful to the Minister for taking the time to respond. Had the Minister in the House of Commons responded on this point when it was put to him, we would not have felt the need to raise it today.

For us, this is an issue about trust and engagement in the political process, which all want to see improved across the UK. There are certainly areas where it is lacking. As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, would say, too often it is the usual subjects. The whole point of something like this is to try to avoid the usual subjects and to reach out to people who do not always feel that their voice is heard, but have a contribution to make. That is something for which we should all strive at different times, however we are engaged in political life and at whatever level.

I am grateful to the Minister. It was never my intention to push this further, but it is useful to get the Government’s thinking and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 6 withdrawn.

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Tabled by

[Baroness Hoey]

8A: Page 8, line 7, at end insert—
“(c) section 56A of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and Schedule 6A to that Act.”
Member’s explanatory statement
This repeals the Protocol consent mechanisms which were made by regulation by the NI Secretary of State. These consent mechanisms expressly transport the Protocol into domestic law by ensuring the consent of the NI Assembly for its continuation requires only a majority vote (and expressly disapplies cross community consent protections of section 42 of the 1998 Act), rather than cross community consent protections applying pursuant to Strand One (5)(d) of the Belfast Agreement.
The Protocol requires (at least in respect Articles 5-10) that positive consent be given for its onward existence.