Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on this issue, it is an important area that deserves greater clarification.

We all remember the period when Northern Ireland was deliberately left ungoverned and civil servants had the most difficult task of all: having to keep their departments ticking over with no real precedent for any guidance as to the extent of their decision-making powers. Some Permanent Secretaries went a little further than others. I remember speaking to one particular Permanent Secretary who indicated that there was a live debate continued among the Permanent Secretaries as to the extent of their powers, and at one stage whether they should be doing some of the things that they were doing in the absence of political guidance. There was certainly a difference in emphasis.

We need to understand, and perhaps the Minister could clarify, what in essence the difference will be between the sorts of decisions that civil servants were taking during the period that we all know about, the three-year interregnum where there were no Ministers, and the decisions that Ministers in these circumstances will be able to take. Could he, for instance, give me a concrete example of a decision that a Minister could take as a caretaker under this that a civil servant could not have taken? I would imagine that they are pretty limited.

There has been reference to carrying on with the decisions that have been made by the Executive in the run-up to caretaker Ministers being in place and that such Ministers should follow the trajectory of the Executive in decision-making going forward. Thinking of the current circumstances regarding the Budget, which appears not to have found agreement in Northern Ireland—there is apparently some limited agreement on the priorities within it, but not all departmental allocations—yet it is out for consultation. What would an interim Finance Minister be able to do in such circumstances? A certain amount of guidance would have been given to him in this situation, but not any kind of final decisions on allocations. So, again, it is not an entirely academic hypothesis that a Finance Minister could find himself in such a position as a caretaker with the Budget in this kind of condition.

I know these are difficult circumstances, and we are trying to find a balance between having no governance and leaving the Province in some kind of sensible situation when it comes to governance in the absence of a full Executive, but I would be grateful if the Minister could try to address those particular issues.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, has said, this is a probing amendment. I think we would all agree that the recent experience of over 1,000 days of political uncertainty when there was no Executive in Northern Ireland is not something that anyone would want repeated. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, have said, it put the civil servants in an incredibly difficult position. We very much hope that we will never again be in a situation where the Assembly is on the brink of collapse, but if such circumstances were to arise, it is important that there is as much stability and clarity on this as possible.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I would be grateful if the Minister could say a little more about how he sees this working in practice and, in particular, if he could say a little more about the requirements, as set out in New Decade, New Approach, for Ministers

“to act within well-defined limits”.

Can he explain what that would mean in practice?

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in his response at Second Reading, provided some clarity on this, indicating that there would be constraints and that cross-cutting issues would still have to go to the Executive for approval. But what happens if there is no First and Deputy First Minister in that period of interregnum? We are supposed to have collective responsibility. Issues are supposed to be taken on a partnership basis. I can remember many times when we did not necessarily have that partnership basis, so I agree with the amendment in the names of my noble friends Lady Smith and Lord Coaker.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to the period between 2017 and 2020. That was a time when civil servants were placed in an invidious position, with limited powers, which piled frustration and anxiety on the wider community. Those civil servants, because of their limited powers, could only take certain decisions. I can well recall the decision in court on the incinerator north of Belfast, where the judge’s judgment indicated that the civil servants had probably acted outwith their powers in this instance.

The Minister was, as I still am, a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. He will recall that the common frameworks came into place in the post-Brexit situation to deal with policy divergence in certain areas devolved to the DAs. Quite a significant amount was devolved to Northern Ireland, but no decisions were taken on those common frameworks during that three-year period because there were no Ministers in place to deal with that—there was no Northern Ireland Executive. The Minister will recall that we in our committee had great difficulty in trying to pursue those common frameworks to their final degree of approval, or to the next stage, where they could be examined with a greater degree of scrutiny. That illustrates the case where there is a need for full-time Ministers.

However, in that period of interregnum, where a Minister’s authority is being extended because of the nature of the difficulties in the Executive, what authority do they have and can that be prescribed in this legislation? Perhaps the Minister could provide us with more clarity and more detail today. If need be, will the Government consider tabling an amendment on Report to deal with this issue and specify the areas of authority?

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I have made the point that this amendment to the agreement came into effect following St Andrews, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said, but it never had the support of those parties that negotiated the Belfast agreement in the first place. The purpose of the original model was to ensure that the necessary partnership between the parties that qualified for these positions was endorsed by the Assembly by joint resolution, giving public and political expression to the concept of a shared office of equals. The 2006 proposals have changed the character of subsequent elections. They have become sectarian headcounts. Some parties have, for example, argued that if they are not supported Sinn Féin would occupy the office of First Minister or vice versa, even though there is no legal difference between them.

My party believes that if the agreement is to be changed, as it is a multiparty agreement, proper discussions should precede new legislation. The Minister is well aware of my views on this, which have been held for many years. However, the evidence of recent years has shown that the change, while no doubt introduced by the Government of the day with the best of intentions, has held back the development of normal politics and resulted in ongoing stalemate and silo government. After 23 years, we are sitting here talking about the legislation before us, which is basically a patch-up job to prevent the institutions from collapsing completely. It clearly indicates that all is not well.

I do not intend to detain the Committee much longer, but I will make the point that what was done at that stage has not worked and we have wasted a further 15 years in failing to advance the cause of more normal arrangements and politics where things such as the economy, health and education are seriously debated and those debates make a difference. So far, that is not happening because people are forced into circling the waggons at each election. Even a cursory examination of election manifestos will clearly indicate that that is the direction of travel.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

I shall speak briefly in favour of Amendment 3, to which I have added my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, spelled out, it would provide for the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to be referred to as Joint First Ministers, reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities. I hesitate slightly to speak in too much detail on this amendment when there are quite so many noble Lords in the Room who were directly involved with the various negotiations, but it seems to me that the current terminology allows for a distortion of the reality. In reality, if the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are entirely equal, can the Minister say what would be the disadvantage of passing this amendment or similar amendments? My honourable friend Stephen Farry said during the debate in the House of Commons when it passed this Bill that making this change would

“take the heat out of the fairly … meaningless contrast that is made and creates huge tension in our election campaigns.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 159.]

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

I rise to support the amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Empey. In common with my noble friend, I was there on Good Friday 1998 when the Belfast agreement was finalised. My role at that time was chair of the Ulster Unionist Party. My noble friend Lord Empey was our chief negotiator. He deserves much of the credit for that incredible achievement almost a quarter of a century ago.

It was not a perfect document—far from it. Negotiators from all parties involved in the talks, as well as the two Governments, had endless battles over the finer details of the agreement. Arguably, the biggest battles were around the release of terrorist prisoners, a concession that most unionists hated—we in the Ulster Unionist Party still do. However, the agreement was a compromise. We all had to make concessions that we would rather not have made. It was a delicate balancing act.

Every aspect of the Belfast agreement was critical to the final outcome, including the procedure by which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were to be elected. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who I am pleased to see here today, and the late Seamus Mallon of the nationalist SDLP were the first holders of these posts. They were a joint ticket, elected by a cross-community vote of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That required the support of the majority of the MLAs—a majority of the designated unionist MLAs and of the designated nationalist MLAs. The endorsement of the Assembly, the elected representatives of the people, gave them their authority—the leaders of the unionists and the nationalists working together in the best interests of Northern Ireland as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, would openly acknowledge that every day was not harmonious, but at important and often tragic moments, such as the horrific deaths of the Quinn brothers and the Omagh bomb, both in the summer of 1998, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were able to stand shoulder to shoulder and speak on behalf of the country that they led.

However, all that changed following the St Andrews agreement in 2006. The Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act changed the process for appointing a First Minister and Deputy First Minister—and I ask noble Lords to note the word “appointed”, rather than “elected”. Since 2006, the First Minister had been nominated by the largest party overall and the Deputy First Minister by the largest party in the next largest community designation. The reasons for that change were entirely political. First, some MLAs wanted to be able to tell their supporters that they had no hand in electing a nationalist, whether they be from Sinn Féin/IRA or the SDLP, into office. Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has stated, they wanted to be able to proclaim at every subsequent Assembly election campaign that failing to support them would allow a nationalist to become First Minister, despite the positions of First Minister and Deputy First Minister being a shared office. I am sorry to say that both those reasons are rooted in sectarianism. That is shameful but it is the stark reality.

The Belfast agreement, which the DUP had no hand in and refused to support, was supposed to be a means of ending sectarianism, with the matter of the election of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister a key element of that. Unlike the St Andrews agreement, the Belfast agreement was endorsed by the people and should not have been changed without their consent. The amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend would restore a key element of the Belfast agreement and deserves your Lordships’ support.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this is another probing amendment, which I hope the Minister will look on favourably. The amendment requires Ministers to consider the re-establishment of the Civic Forum for Northern Ireland as one of the issues

“that Ministers must have regard to under the Ministerial code.”

Noble Lords will be aware that the Civic Forum was provided for by strand 1 of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. At the time it comprised representatives of business, trade unions and the voluntary sector. I believe the voluntary sector was the largest part, with 18 members. There were members from agriculture and fisheries, arts and sports, business, the churches, community relations, culture, education, trade unions and also those who identified as victims of terrorism. It met 12 times in total between 2000 and 2002; then, of course, the institutions were suspended.

We raised this at Second Reading in looking at parts of the Good Friday agreement where, despite good intentions and agreements that were made, those agreements have not been fulfilled. That comes back to the point we were discussing earlier on New Decade, New Approach. It is difficult when agreement is reached but the implementation becomes somewhat elusive at some point, as I know noble Lords will be aware.

There is an opportunity, when people get disillusioned with politics—and Northern Ireland’s politics are perhaps more difficult than those anywhere else in the UK at times—for communities and the public to engage better with issues and debates, particularly when issues are cross-community or there are community differences, to have a full discussion and debate without any time constraints or legislation, just to look at things and talk things through. It is about engagement. When trust in politics is low—particularly, as we have seen, with Christmas parties and other issues—anything that engages people to understand and be part of the process, even slightly at arm’s length, can be an advantage.

When this was debated in the other place, my colleague Alex Davies-Jones said:

“The Good Friday agreement was about a new participative politics.”


The Minister will be aware that

“The argument the Women’s Coalition put forward for a civic forum was as an advisory second chamber”—

not unlike your Lordships’ House, but perhaps with even less authority than your Lordships’ House—

“designed to give the trade union movement and businesses, as well as the community and the women’s movement, a place in political policy making. The prize of that expertise and knowledge is a durable solution that keeps communities on board, one that I hope will be considered going forward.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 169.]

When it was debated in the other place, the Minister did not respond to this or give any answer. I am raising it today is in the hope that the Minister will have something more to say about this and any views the Government may have. I raise this as quite often in government thinking—I exclude the Minister from this entirely—Northern Ireland has been an afterthought. We saw it with Brexit; people did not fully realise the implications for Northern Ireland and it was never talked about during the whole Brexit debate, as we will probably hear about later. There is a need for leadership and proactive interest in Northern Ireland. Looking at issues such as reinstating the Civic Forum could be extremely beneficial. I really want to test where the Minister, on behalf of the Government, is on this one.

We will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and I do not want to pre-empt anything she will say. However, looking at her amendment, which I am sure she will speak to in a moment, there is quite an interesting debate. If you look at the current designations in the Assembly, there are 40 unionists, 39 nationalists and 11 other, and it is quite possible that in the future a different kind of balance could be returned. I want to listen to what she has to say on this, but the general question of designations, how they work and what that means for power-sharing is a worthwhile discussion for your Lordships to be having and indeed for the Minister to respond to. I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness has to say and to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 7 in my name is intended, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, just said, as a probing amendment designed to give the Committee the opportunity to discuss the issue of designations. As I said previously, perhaps in response to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, I talk about some of these issues with a degree of hesitancy when there is quite so much experience in the Room. However, as someone who has been following Northern Ireland politics now for several years, I none the less feel that these are issues worthy of debate. I also declare an interest as a member of the Northern Ireland Alliance Party.

As noble Lords will know, under the Assembly’s standing orders one of the very first things Members of the Assembly are required to do is to enter in the roll a designation of identity: nationalist, unionist or other—my colleagues in the Alliance Party always have to put themselves in as “other”. Designations are required for the operation of cross-community votes in the Assembly. Cross-community support is required for a number of matters in the Assembly, including the election of the Speaker, changing the standing orders, and agreeing that a reserved matter should become a transferred matter and vice versa. However, the operation of cross-community votes means that the votes of some Assembly Members count twice, whereas others count only once. Under the current calculations, the votes of nationalist and unionist MLAs count twice. If an MLA is designated as other, their vote counts only in determining either the support of the majority of Members or the support of 60% of Members voting.

Why is that important? It is not just that there is an inherent unfairness in the system as I have described it but I believe there is also a broader principle at stake; that is, more than 20 years after the signing of the 1998 agreement, why are we continuing with a system that perpetuates divisions, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said, rather than creating a system that brings people together? In speaking to my friends in Northern Ireland, many of whom are political but some of whom are not, I am increasingly struck by the desire for a united society where everyone is treated equally, and yet the Assembly continues to represent institutionalised division through the outdated designation system. Northern Ireland has moved on considerably since the Good Friday/Belfast agreement was signed. Increasingly, a growing number of people do not want to be identified by community backgrounds. Northern Ireland society is becoming more mixed and more diverse. If we want seriously to increase participation in Northern Ireland politics, particularly from those with ethnic backgrounds, and make Northern Ireland politics more diverse, we should recognise that those who are not traditional unionists or nationalists are not second-class.

I am sure that the Minister will say that once again this is beyond the scope of the Bill. None the less, the purpose of this probing amendment is to ask the question: when do we think that politics in Northern Ireland can begin to normalise and move forward?

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I will finish there. We have Northern Ireland Government commitments and so on, but there is a huge range of other things through this report. The Committee has debated, quite reasonably, very serious issues around the constitution and everyone’s points of view, as well as what should change or what might change. I thought it important to bring this amendment before the Committee today because, in among all that, there are very real commitments that the UK Parliament and this UK Government in Westminster have made to the people of Northern Ireland. Alongside all those constitutional issues and debates and discussions about how Northern Ireland should be governed and what should take place as a result of the protocol, there are huge financial commitments to deliver improvements to the ordinary people of Northern Ireland, and the people of Northern Ireland will want to hear how the Government will meet what they have put down in that agreement.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak extremely briefly on Amendment 9, which is tabled in my name and signed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Smith of Basildon. The purpose behind this amendment is really quite straightforward: it is to speed up the implementation of this Bill. It is now two years since New Decade, New Approach was signed, and yet we face growing political tensions ahead of the Assembly elections next year and threats from the DUP to withdraw its Ministers from the Executive as a result of tensions over the Northern Ireland protocol, as illustrated all too clearly in the earlier debate. This Bill would go some way towards managing such a crisis, were that to happen, yet we could potentially find ourselves in a situation where the Bill had been passed by the House of Commons and the House of Lords but, because of the two-month commencement period, the Act could not be deployed in order to help with such a potential crisis.

The Minister indicated at Second Reading that

“if the political situation changes dramatically, that is something that the Government will be prepared to look at during the passage of the Bill”.—[Official Report, 29/11/21; col. 1258.]

Can the Minister repeat that reassurance today? Surely avoiding a political vacuum at such a critical time is in everyone’s best interests. I also look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the very important points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, not least on the meeting of the board and whether that has happened.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise as a signatory to both amendments and to speak in support of them. To deal with Amendment 8, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has gone through the New Decade, New Approach agreement with a fine-toothed comb and highlighted all the various commitments and undertakings that were made back in January 2020 by two Governments and the parties to a greater or lesser degree.

In many ways, New Decade, New Approach could be characterised as a highly aspirational document. It contains lots of commitments but, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, where are the funding commitments to match and deliver those undertakings? For delivery, you need the money. While it could be provided out of the block grant, there are some elements that can be provided only directly from the Exchequer here in London.

However, proposed new subsection (2)(b) in Amendment 8 deals with

“what plans the Government has to bring forward further legislative proposals to implement the remainder of The New Decade, New Approach Deal.”

I look at what has not been addressed or fulfilled yet and, by and large, I would say that some of that is perhaps down to differences within the Executive Office between the First and Deputy First Ministers, as well as to the concentration of work on Covid, and now, obviously, we have the new variant.

There is a need for a bill of rights. We have been talking about it since 1998. Loads of meetings have been held in the Assembly on the bill of rights, we are still no further forward. We are told that the Northern Ireland Assembly Ad Hoc Committee on a Bill of Rights has received 45 briefings from experts since September 2020, and it recently held a public call for evidence which attracted 2,400 responses. The committee is due to report in February 2022. There is a panel of experts who are intended to assist the committee, but who have yet to be appointed. When will that happen? Promises were made about an age, goods, facilities and services Bill to prevent discrimination against people because of their age. Perhaps some of us might fall into that category at some stage, or perhaps we are already do.

Then there are the more fundamental issues: rights, language and identity proposals. Although that is within the remit of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, I do not see a lot of movement there. Can the Minister indicate whether the Government here at Westminster intend to legislate for them? I have already referred to the civic advisory panel, upon which there has been no significant movement. It was to be established within six months, which should have been June 2020, and we still have not heard about it. On the programme for government, New Decade, New Approach says:

“There will be a multi-year Programme for Government, underpinned by a multi-year budget and legislative programme.”


The public consultation on the draft programme for government outcomes framework closed on 22 March this year, some 14 months after New Decade, New Approach. A total of 416 responses were provided to the main consultation on the equality impact assessment and, in addition, there were 23 responses to an associated children and young people’s consultation. The feedback received demonstrates that there remains strong support for the outcomes-based approach and for the draft outcomes as consulted upon. The Executive hopes to be in a position to have a final revised version of the outcomes framework as soon as possible. That begs the question of whether the Northern Ireland Executive are currently working according to a programme for government or what are they working towards and how do they get or achieve that collective responsibility?

The amendment in my name and the names of my noble friends Lord Coaker and Lady Smith is timely. It seeks to ensure that the commitments that were to be undertaken by the UK Government and by the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly should be brought forward in an expeditious way for the benefit of all the community of Northern Ireland, properly costed, with a column indicating how much money, where it is coming from and when it will be spent.

On Amendment 9, in my name and the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, it is vital that we have commencement with Royal Assent. New Decade, New Approach is now 23 months old, and it is important that some fundamental issues in the Bill to do with the appointment of Ministers, elections and petitions of concern are put in place immediately.

For too long we have seen the misuse of the petition of concern. It was never meant to be a petition of veto but a petition that helped minorities and which understood and appreciated the issues they raised. It was not meant to be a petition of objection but was to be used as a special proofing procedure during which a special Assembly committee would hear specifically from the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. It was meant to be equality and human rights focused, and to be used as a proofing procedure to ensure that rights were upheld. It was never there to prevent rights being legislated for.

In that regard, it is important that the Government look kindly and benignly on both Amendments 8 and 9 —I urge the Minister to do this—and provide indications of acceptance in relation to them. That would allow the timely implementation of this Act to coincide with the end of the current Assembly in March, with Assembly elections on 5 or 6 May.