Health and Care Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 178, 266 and 293. Amendment 178, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, is important for people with rare and less common diseases. The amendments could be a lifeline for people who have rare conditions who use products that may be the only substances that work. There is an enormous selection of rare conditions. It can be a desperate situation when some medicines are developed but take a long time to be given the all-clear by NICE. Some medicines are not available in England on the National Health Service but are available in other countries, sometimes even in Scotland. That is devastating and frustrating.

I support Amendments 266 and 293, on the cosmetic surgery industry, which must be made safer. It is extraordinary that this business is only partially registered. Many people who have such a procedure take for granted that the practitioner will be registered and fully insured. There have been some disastrous results when things go wrong with a beauty procedure. I know of some plastic surgeons who work only in the National Health Service, as they do not want to be tarred with the same brush as uninsured cowboys. Amendments 266 and 293 deal with a wide selection of cosmetic procedures, some of which are psychologically important to many people. There is wide interest in making this trade safe and getting it registered. I hope the Minister realises that this is an important matter that needs putting right.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have Amendment 176, the second amendment in this group, and two other amendments. I shall start with Amendment 176 which is concerned with the treatment of thyroid patients who continue to be denied liothyronine, otherwise known as T3, as the most appropriate treatment for them. For some patients, the standard treatment is not effective. T3 has proven to be a much better treatment, but tragically, a few years ago the manufacturers grossly inflated the cost of T3 by a massive 6,000%. Understandably, NHS England and its associated prescribing advising machinery strongly discouraged the use of the drug and, as a result, many patients had T3 withdrawn and suffered quite considerably or had to fund it privately or source it from abroad. Happily, the price of T3 has come down by 75%, although it could go down further, but I believe it is no longer categorised as a high-cost drug.

The problem is that clinical commissioning groups still treat it as a high-cost drug, so the situation is still very difficult for patients who need it—those for whom the standard treatment is not appropriate. The current guidance states that T3 can be prescribed to patients who have unresolved symptoms on the standard treatment if it is initiated or confirmed following a review by an NHS consultant endocrinologist. A statement in July 2021 restated NHSE guidance, but it has not been followed by clinical commissioning groups. A survey done recently by UK thyroid charities, to which I pay huge tribute, says that 44% of CCGs have not fully adopted the national guidelines or are wrongly interpreting them.

What are we to do? What is the situation here, where we have clear guidance that is not being followed? This goes back to our previous debates about the various mechanisms being brought in to ration treatments, against national guidance or technology appraisal advice from NICE. It is the same issue. I am not expecting the Minister to issue a direction but I am expecting him to tell CCGs and, in future, integrated care boards to get off their backsides, start implementing the guidance properly and realise that this is no longer such a high-cost drug. I appeal to him to do something about that.

I also hope that the Minister will do something about hospital catering. I confess to your Lordships that I am president of the Hospital Caterers Association, where I work very closely with some great professional staff who have to work with their hands tied behind their back. Often they do not have the resources to provide the high-quality food that everyone wants and expects.

During Covid we saw in many local NHS facilities a determination to do everything possible to improve nutrition for both patients and staff. Miraculously, hot food was made available to staff overnight, which, as noble Lords know, seems to have been beyond the capacity of the NHS for many years. I do not know why I am looking at the former Chief Nursing Officer as I say this; I think it is an appeal for support.

This clause is highly welcome as I believe it will lead to higher standards, but my amendments would enable the caterers to deliver on them. The first key point is this: they need the resources to be able to do it. The amount of money spent on hospital food per day at the moment is simply not sufficient. Secondly, we need more training for staff. The training programmes have disappeared, and we need to get them back in to give staff the opportunity to show what they can do. Thirdly, we need to make sure that NHS trusts and foundation trusts are fully on board with bringing forward these regulations. There is no doubt that the efficiency programmes have taken their toll on the budgets for hospital catering and that, equally, the old-style national training schemes fell away and have not been replaced. The pay grade of qualified chefs and cooks needs to be reviewed to reflect the importance of their role. This issue is important in terms of the standards of food and nutrition for our patients and for the well-being of our staff.

My final amendment in this group is Amendment 264. What links all these amendments is that we need more consultants appointed—a small effort to enable us to improve the efficiency of the system. I remind the Committee of my GMC connections in relation to this. The amendment would add the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh and the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Glasgow, and their associated dental faculties, to the colleges that may be involved in the appointment of NHS consultants. My amendment was inspired by the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, which noble Lords might be surprised to learn has an office in Birmingham because many consultants who work in the English NHS are members of the Scottish colleges.

There seems to be a lacuna in the current regulations. According to the National Health Service (Appointment of Consultants) Regulations 1996 and subsequent guidance issued by the department in 2005, only the Royal College of Surgeons in England is permitted to review surgical consultant job descriptions and send a royal college representative to the advisory appointment committees when it comes to the appointment of consultant surgeons. Other elements of my amendment apply to the appointment of physician clinicians, and the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh and the Royal College of Emergency Medicine are also supportive. Although the process and guidance apply only to NHS trusts, foundation trusts are encouraged to follow it.

The Minister has yet to accept any amendment to the Bill. The usual line from the Government is, “We will do this when legislation is available to do so.” Here is a great opportunity for the Minister, as we are here on day 6 of Committee, to get up and say that he is going to accept my amendment.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, in following the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I declare an interest as the patron of the National Association of Care Catering, a position that I took over from the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. I admit that, when I had this great honour thrust upon me, I had little idea what I was getting into—and I have discovered a world of highly dedicated, professional people whose contribution to the health of the nation is very much overlooked. I managed to attend their national conference in Nottingham last October, and I have to say that it was one of the most harrowing afternoons I have spent, as they talked about what they had gone through as the people who supply catering not only in hospitals and acute hospitals but in care homes, as well as doing meals on wheels.

I will pick up one point that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made, on training. He is absolutely right that this area has suffered a great deal because of various changes not just to training in the NHS but to the training in higher education. We do not have a recognised qualification in care catering in this country, yet these are people who have to produce food for people who have dysphagia, multiple food intolerances and dementia, people who quite often are suffering from malnutrition when they come into hospital, and people who have allergies and often suffer from dehydration. The people who have worked in this field, and some of them have worked in it for many years, suffer a deep sense of frustration, which is that when young people in school or college show an aptitude for or a willingness to go into the world of catering, they are directed towards restaurant catering, because that is where the teachers and lecturers think the money is to be made. Actually, catering for people with difficult medical conditions is a lot more complicated.

I say to the Minister that I am also really impressed by the specialist companies that work in this field—those that produce specialist menus and enable people to order ingredients for complicated menus in complicated settings, as well as those that manufacture cutlery and crockery and vessels that can be used by people whose interaction with that sort of thing is hampered. These can bring a dignity and focus to something that is much overlooked—but talk to dieticians and you will increasingly understand the importance that food plays in maintenance of health and recovery.

I do not know whether or not this will make it into the Bill, but will the Minister go back to the department and ask whether his officials might meet some of the people who do a remarkable and much overlooked job, day in, day out, and who these last two years, perhaps more than anybody else in the NHS, deserved the clap, if only people knew what they had done?

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Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

165: After Clause 27, insert the following new Clause—
“Place based integrated care and Primary Care Commissioning Boards
(1) Each place based integrated care board is to be established by regulations made by the Secretary of State for an area within an integrated care board.(2) An order establishing a place based integrated care board must provide for the constitution of the board.(3) Before making, varying or revoking an order under this section, the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the integrated care board in which the place based integrated care committee is intended to operate;(b) the relevant local authority or local authorities;(c) the integrated care partnership in which the place based integrated care committee is intended to operate;(d) the local healthwatch organisations whose areas coincide with or fall wholly or partly within the proposed area of the place based integrated care board; and(e) members of the public living within the proposed area of the place based integrated care board.(4) The place based integrated care board may arrange under a scheme of delegation from the integrated care board for the provision of such services or facilities it considers appropriate for the purposes of the health service that relate to securing the improvement—(a) in the physical and mental health of the people for whom it has responsibility, or(b) in the prevention, diagnosis and treatment in these people.(5) In imposing financial requirements on integrated care boards under Section 223GB of the National Health Service Act 2006, NHS England may give additional directions in respect of placed based integrated care committees.(6) Integrated care boards may give place based integrated care board directions as to any of the functions to which it has given delegated functions. (7) The Schedule to the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 (bodies to which that Act applies) shall be amended as follows.(8) After paragraph 1(k), there shall be added the following sub-paragraph—“(l) Place Based Integrated Care Boards.””Member’s explanatory statement
It’s likely that ICBs will set up place based entities which may take many of the key commissioning decisions at the local/Constituency level. This amendment puts place based integrated boards on a statutory basis and subject to Parliamentary oversight and meeting in public.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, my Amendments 165 and 166 are rather more focused than the last group. They are probing amendments, rather than me urging that Ministers take the specific wording of them.

One of the rather surprising characteristics of integrated care systems is that they are not defined in the Bill, although people talk about these entities all the time. The statutory parts are integrated care boards and integrated care partnerships, but much of the real power, decision-making and influence potentially lies with non-statutory groups, whose membership, governance and procedures are not regulated. These are placed-based partnerships, provider collaboratives or networks, primary care networks, or companies accredited to the health system support framework. My two amendments would put the first two of these non-statutory groups on a statutory basis. Place-based partnerships are described and supported by NHSE and the Local Government Association as the foundation of integrated care systems. I am very grateful to the policy research unit in health and social care systems and commissioning at the University of Manchester for its very helpful work on this.

In our debate on primary care, the Minister referred to his hope that integrated care boards would

“exercise functions through place-based committees”.—[Official Report, 20/1/22; col. 1852.]

It is pretty clear that many ICBs will delegate considerable responsibility to them. I can see the potential for that, but given their increased responsibilities, there are legitimate questions to be asked about how place-based committees are to be held to account. What are their governance arrangements? Who will serve on them? What are their leadership arrangements? What functions will they be allowed to carry out? The noble Earl, who I think is responding, may say that that is best left to local decision-making. I see that up to point, but rather like with ICB governance, surely some framework and safeguards need to be built around them.

A similar argument might be made in relation to provider collaboratives. Such collaboratives are essentially partnership arrangements involving two or more trusts or foundation trusts. Participation is mandated for trusts providing acute or mental health services. They are expected to be part of one or more provider collaboratives, with discretionary participation of other providers. Such collaboratives may form at supra-ICS level, may partially cover multiple ICSs and may cover multiple places. Additionally, providers may be members of multiple overlapping collaboratives. The collaboratives may contain acute or mental health members only, or may include wider membership such as community providers and primary care. It is anticipated that they will deliver systems’ strategic priorities. The original White Paper, Integration and Innovation: Working Together to Improve Health and Social Care for All, indicates that “significant” delegation to both place level and provider collaboratives from integrated care systems is expected. It is also suggested that, in time, provider collaboratives may play a role in oversight. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said:

“we have new provider collaboratives which, in fairness, is where the power in the NHS will lie. The Bill makes no provision for them in terms of transparency, openness or accountability”.—[Official Report, 7/12/21; col. 1789.]

This was confirmed on 2 December by the Health Service Journal:

“In the minds of most acute trust chiefs, it is provider collaboratives and groups, and not integrated care boards that will wield the greatest influence (although the former may act through their representation on the latter).”


So I want to put a few questions to the Minister. First, what degree of oversight will be exerted over the formation of these arrangements, and by whom? Secondly, if a lead provider contract is in place, or if providers agree how to spend their respective resources as a provider collaborative, who would oversee that arrangement and where would accountability lie in the delivery of outcomes or in the case of poor performance? How would it be ensured that the work of provider collaboratives took into account the interests, aims and work of the wider health and social care community, including the patient voice?

On the latter, the NHS England design framework made it clear that the involvement of patients, unpaid carers and the public is expected at place and system levels, with requirements for public meetings and published minutes in both the partnership and the NHS board. It is not specified how provider collaboratives, where significant decisions regarding the planning and provision of services may be made, will be publicly accountable.

I believe that the Government are going to discuss with noble Lords the formation and governance of integrated care boards and integrated care partnerships. I suggest that that discussion be extended to look at the position of place-based committees and provider networks, because at the end of the day Parliament is entitled to establish some kind of framework and governance and transparency arrangements without going too much into the minutiae of the detail. On that basis, I hope that the Government might be prepared to take away these amendments as part of that broader discussion. I beg to move.

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[Earl Howe (Con)]

I shall need to write to the noble Baroness about that timing because I do not have it. I meant to say that I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, for his intervention on the way in which we hope that primary care will be better built into the commissioning arrangements than it has been up to now.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl and to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for her helpful interventions on primary care, which were very important.

In essence, the noble Earl said that we should be reassured because, either through the constitution of the ICB or through the more general guidance given out by NHS England, appropriate accountability and monitoring arrangements will be put in place. I accept that, but there are questions about the guidance and the constitution which mean that we may well want to come back. I think it would be appropriate for Parliament to give some oversight approval to that.

We are a bit jaundiced about NHS England guidance because we still cannot get hold of the guidance put out 10 or so days ago about the make-up of ICBs and the new timetable, which I mentioned on our previous Committee day. It is on something called nhs.net but not even our Library can get hold of it because there is a security wall around it, and I do not understand why it has not been put into the public domain. That is why we are a bit wary of any guidance that is going to be put out. I cannot resist saying that I hope the guidance is not going to say that local authority councillors cannot be on the place-based committees, because that would be a mistake. It could be helpful in some places for them to be so appointed.

On the more general issue of purchaser-provider tension, we have had a really interesting debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said that every Secretary of State apart from Frank Dobson, of blessed memory—my first ministerial job was serving under Frank before he was persuaded, if that is the word, by Tony Blair’s persuasive skills to go and fight Ken Livingstone for the mayorship of London—believed in it.

The point is that, whatever you call it, there is clearly going to be a relationship between the organisations of the NHS that have the dosh handed out by the department and those organisations that provide the services. There is going to be an unnecessary tension and an issue of accountability and monitoring. The puzzle that some of us have is how that is going to work within the integrated care boards when the big providers are sitting around the table. I think the clue was given in the Health Service Journal, which said:

“In the minds of most acute trust chiefs, it is provider collaboratives and groups, and not integrated care boards that will wield the greatest influence”—


an interesting phrase. I suspect the real dynamic is going to be between those collaboratives and the chair and chief executive of the integrated care board, while the board itself, which looks as though it is going to be very large, will be the legitimiser of those discussions and tensions. Still, it is a bit of a strange beast.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, raised the issue of CCGs and the fact that, because they were essentially membership organisations of GPs, they could not do the nitty-gritty of managing the contracts, which in the end was kind of half-devolved down to them but with accountability held at the NHS England level. That illustrates the problem of having providers and commissioners around the same table. For very good reasons people want to encourage them to integrate, but that poses its own challenges.

I think it is inevitable that we are going to come back to this issue. This has been a very good debate and I am most grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 165 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

174A: Clause 39, page 47, line 17, at end insert—
“(4A) A direction under subsection (1) may be given only in relation to a particular instance, not generally.(4B) A direction under subsection (1) must provide for the direction to cease to have effect on a date specified in the direction, which must be no later than one year from the date the direction was given.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, along with the other amendments to Clause 39 in the name of Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, would reduce the scope of the Secretary of State powers to direct NHS England by adding safeguards and additional exceptions.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, we come to Clause 39, which I think is one of the most significant ways in which the Bill will increase the powers of the Secretary of State over the NHS. The clause gives a general power of direction over NHS England in the exercise of its functions. It is a very significant change from the legislation the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, put through in 2011-12. It also is clear that many NHS bodies are, like the Nuffield Trust,

“concerned that these new powers will result in a more politicised NHS, with ministers dragged into micromanaging how local services work.”

I do not think you can consider this clause without considering further clauses in the next group, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in relation to the power of the Secretary of State to intervene at any time in proposals to change services. In addition, Part 3 of the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to move responsibilities between several arm’s-length bodies in health and to abolish them. We have already had the CQC debate today, about an increase in the Secretary of State’s capacity for intervention. There is also the question of the regulators, which will be discussed later, which again leads to the individual professional regulators, which, again, the Secretary of State can abolish.

Although I am going to talk about the general direction, I do not think you can do that without thinking about the other accretions of power that the Bill takes. Together, I believe it is a fundamental difference —a change in philosophy—from the 2012 legislation. NHS Providers, with which I have discussed this extensively, is concerned. As it says:

“Clinical and operational independence must be maintained in order to ensure equity for patients within the service; the best use of constrained funding; and clinical leadership with regard to prioritisation and patient care.”


Although I do not want to completely open up this debate, I have to say that the allegations made by Conservative MPs about threats made in the last few days by Government Whips, over the funding of services, are very apposite to how a power direction might be used by Ministers under this Bill.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

If my noble friend will allow me, I will have to consider that and write, and make that available to all noble Lords.

We have included a number of exceptions to the power of direction in the Bill to ensure that the Secretary of State is not able to intervene in day-to-day operational matters. For example, there is no intention to use the power to direct NHS England on procurement matters.

On Clause 64, the rationale for removing these duties is twofold. First, the pandemic has highlighted the importance of different parts of the health and care system working together. The clause removes some barriers in legislation that hinder collaboration between system partners. It facilitates collaboration between NHS England and system partners and enables broader thinking about the interests of the wider health system. Secondly, removing the Secretary of State’s duty to promote autonomy will put increased accountability at the heart of the Bill.

Overall, these clauses encompass flexibility, allowing Ministers to act quickly and set direction, while balanced with safeguards and transparency requirements to ensure that they can be held to account. I understand that there are a number of concerns about this group of amendments and others. I am sure we will have a number of discussions, but in the meantime, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very significant debate, because when the Minister referred to the fact that Ministers needed to have the answers, I realised that the intention is to go back to command and control from the centre. It was quite clear: that is the intention. I think that is very depressing, because I do not believe that the NHS is going to benefit at all. When he said that this will strengthen local accountability—oh no, it will not. There is no local accountability whatever in this structure. I am sorry to say this again, but the fact that the Government are taking local authority councillors out of ICBs is a visible demonstration that this is a centrally driven health service from the Department of Health.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Tuesday 18th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe (Con)]

As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is proposing a separate NHS appointments commission. I am suggesting that it would be unnecessary to add that arms-length body to the existing landscape.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his response, which he has clearly put a great deal of thought into. At the end of the day, what is being proposed is a very top-down, hierarchical approach to running the health service. ICBs may be accountable to NHS England and, through NHS England, to the Secretary of State, because the Government are taking power of direction through this legislation. However, it becomes abundantly clear that ICBs do not look outward to their local communities; they look upward to the hierarchies above them.

This is the problem with giving NHS England such power over the chief executive and the chair. Anyone who has worked in the NHS knows that, in the target-laden, panic-ridden approach from the centre to local management, the ICBs will be under the cosh right from the start. For all the wonderful words that have been used about what they will do, the reality is that they will be beaten up by the centre in the traditional “target” approach to running the service. Of course, it did not have to be this way. While it is perfectly proper to have boards making their own decisions and appointments, and being held to account for interventions where necessary, this is such a top-down approach that I do not think it will work. I believe and hope that the House will seek to amend it in some of the ways suggested in these amendments. That said, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 25 withdrawn.

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In essence, the amendments would enshrine what is already there in Wade-Gery and best practice guidance where it relates to digital technology and transformation. We should be making sure that our NHS legislation is fully updated in line with that report and with the guidance on what success looks like for the digital age. I hope the Minister agrees to take the amendments on board, and I look forward to hearing his reply. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for speaking so eloquently in support of this group of amendments. There are a number of amendments relating to data in this Committee and they fall into three categories. The first category, the group that we are debating today, is about the prioritisation of the digital transformation in the NHS. The second group looks at specific patient groups and the potential of data to improve their care outcomes. The third set is about confidentiality of data as far as patients are concerned. My view is that all three run together.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, I am enthusiastic about digital transformation in the NHS; indeed, I believe it is the only way we can hope to meet the challenges that healthcare faces over the next 20 or 30 years. However, there are two conditions. One is that the integrity of patients’ data is assured for individual patients. That has not always been the case in the past, and the debacle of care.data is a salutary warning of what can happen if we do not protect patient information in an appropriate way.

The second condition is resources. I was very glad that my noble friend referred to the issue of resources and to the Wade-Gery report, which is the most recent report looking at the arrangements to support digital transformation in the health service. Wade-Gery reported that

“transformation funding is … split between revenue and capital and dispersed across the organisations. Tech funding is variable, often diverted and not necessarily linked to strategy and outcomes, incentivising either monolithic programmes or small-scale initiatives.”

She commented:

“The requirement for digital transformation in other sectors has driven up the proportion of their spend on digital and technology”.


It has been well-known, for many years, that the NHS locally has not been spending sufficiently on data and data transformation. The latest estimate from NHS England is that the NHS spends less than 2% of its total expenditure on IT, while the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, and the IPPR suggest that this should be nearer 5% by 2022. I say to Ministers that, unless they can find ways to ensure the NHS starts to spend at that level, we are simply not going to achieve the kind of transformation we want.

One way to do that is to ensure that, at the ICB level, there is an official charged with driving this forward at the local level. We know, in general, in relation to boards of the health service, that the data/digital leadership often does not have a seat, in contrast to many organisations. This is why we think that needs to change. Overall, we believe this set of amendments would enable the Government and Parliament to show how important it is to prioritise the kind of digital transformation that we want to see.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I support these amendments but first I believe in putting right wrongs. I failed to declare my interests in last Tuesday’s debate, so I took advice from the registrar. He assured me that I do not have to give a full account of my life and times, which is a great mercy to everybody, but I do have to declare what I am currently involved in and the remunerations. I serve on the Maternity Transformation Board, which is owned by NHS England, and the maternity Stakeholder Council, which is also supported by NHS England but is much more of a free agent.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath; it was a very rounded, fulsome and clear introduction to these amendments. I want to pick up the issue of trust, because both noble Lords linked trust and confidentiality. That is absolutely essential. We will not get the support or trust of the public if we do not respect their confidentiality, and I will say a word about that in a minute. I support Amendments 84, 134, 140 and 160—I have added my name to them. I also support Amendments 70 and 73, and wish to comment on those.

I strongly support digital transformation. Amendments 84, 134 and 140 place a duty on integrated care boards to promote digital transformation and to produce their own five-year plans. It will need money, so Amendment 160 requires the NHS to spend at least 5% of its capital allocation to achieve it. That is right, as digital needs sustained resource—it is not simply a “nice to have”; it is absolutely essential for the future of our services. I have talked to visitors from the USA and cannot believe how antiquated they think our systems are. In many places, they are still in the dark ages, so we have to invest in digital.

I support the increased use of digital technology in healthcare largely because of my involvement in two major inquiries into NHS services in the last few years. One evening in 2014, I had a telephone call from Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, before he was knighted and welcomed into your Lordships’ House, where he has already made a very significant contribution. He invited me to chair an inquiry into maternity services for England. The noble Lord has a sense of humour: he gave me nine months in which to deliver.

I set up a panel and we delivered in time, calling our report Better Births. Our 28 recommendations were accepted by NHS England, which then set up the Maternity Transformation Board and the Stakeholder Council, on which I have declared my interests. The Stakeholder Council is interesting because it is full of a wide range of people. A lot of charities, in particular, are on that council, and add a lot to the work that we do.

Two of the 28 recommendations are particularly relevant to this Bill and these amendments. We recommended that every mother should have her own digital maternity record, which she would create with her midwife. This record would set out the plans for managing her pregnancy, the birth and aftercare, which is so necessary for the baby, the mother and, I would add, the family. The mother’s record would then be accessible, with her permission, to all those contributing to her care. In future, we could see it being part of the child health record, and possibly the lifetime health record of the mother.

Although some progress has been made on improving access to NHS health records, we are still some way from achieving this, or the ambition set out in the NHS Long Term Plan for every citizen to have their own personal health record. We need to galvanise the NHS to move quickly and capitalise on the enormous potential that digital offers. That is what these amendments are designed to do. I am sure my noble friends on the Front Bench will consider them carefully and assess the potential that they offer.

I also recently had the privilege of chairing an investigation into the safety of medicines and medical devices; our report was called First Do No Harm. Thousands of women and children suffered avoidable harm relating to the medicines and one of the medical devices which we reviewed. They continue to live with the terrible consequences today. This harm did not take place in one isolated moment; it has spanned years and even decades. Why was it not detected and stopped? Many people could have been spared the misery it has been for them and their families.

Part of the answer to that lies in the absence of data. We found that data was not collected or that, when it was, there was no attempt to link data to identify patterns of concern. Paper records, such as there were, were incomplete, dispersed, archived or destroyed. The healthcare system could not tell us how many women had taken the epilepsy drug sodium valproate and gone on to have damaged babies. It could not tell us how many women had pelvic mesh implants, or which implants were used, or where and when.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his very considered response. We have had a very rich debate, and I thank all the speakers. It has been a privilege to take part in what I think the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, called this “conversation”, because we have heard huge experience and authority, right across the board, about the way we might digitally transform the NHS.

In a sense, I think it is about means, not ends: we are trying to reach the same end but we disagree on how to get to that objective. At the core of that disagreement, and no doubt where we will have considerable debate later on in the Bill, is where the digital transformation aspect fits with data confidentiality and data sharing—all of which is necessary as part of digital transformation. I listened with enormous interest to what the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, had to say on that. We have to get this equation right, and we have to build public trust. I say “build” public trust because I do not think it is completely there, post the GP data grab, as it has been called, of last year. We will come on to that on future occasions.

I feel somewhat that the noble Earl, despite his mellifluous approach to these matters, was rather throwing the book of arguments at the need for any form of amendment to the Bill. He always does so with great style, but I was not totally convinced on this occasion. He mentioned the principle that we should not be too prescriptive—in that case, why are we legislating? We are trying to legislate for what the priorities for the health service are in the current circumstances.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Does my noble friend not think there is an interesting contrast in saying that we must not be too prescriptive but, for NHS England, we are going to tell it what to do?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Absolutely. I think the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, talked about a disconnect in another context, but that is probably the word I would use in these circumstances. The Government say that they are going to prioritise good local leadership but do not want to be too prescriptive about who is on the board of the ICB; that they want a clear strategy for digital transformation but do not want to make it a duty; and that a general level of competence and expertise is required but, again, “Oh, no, we don’t want any digital duty; that would be a little bit too prescriptive”.

We need a level of digital maturity, and a regular set of digital maturity assessments. I liked the sound of that, but faced with all the other duties that ICBs will have, which ones are they going to prioritise—the ones that are built into statute, or the ones that are part of a What Good Looks Like programme? The noble Earl quoted exactly the same document that I had access to. It is a splendid document but, without some form of underpinning by legislation, it is very difficult to see ICBs giving priority to that.

Of course, the other argument the noble Earl made was that if we had a separate duty, we would have to have a whole separate planning process. That is not how these things work. When you have a set of duties, you try to do it in a holistic fashion. You do not say that we need one plan for this duty and another for that duty. If you are going to use your resources sensibly and the capabilities within your organisation in the right way, you need to do it in a planned programme, right across the board.

On the whole issue that having a separate statutory duty risks misalignment, I thought that was where somebody had really been creative and woken up with the inspiration that this was the final killer blow in the arguments being made.

I listened with great interest when the noble Earl came to the question of funding. I have not done any calculations in my head, but I bet that £2.85 billion cap ex spending over three years does not equate to 5% of the NHS budget. As my noble friend intimated to me, when you look at the cost of some of the digital developments that have taken place over the last year or two, you will see that they are highly expensive, in both revenue and capital spending. The noble Earl talked about not ring-fencing We all know the problem of distinguishing between capital and revenue in public spending. That is not to say that that is necessarily right.

Finally, on the idea that we must not tie hands—what is legislation designed to do but to set out parameters?

I thought that the aspect of patient engagement was quite interesting, and I will need to re-read what the noble Earl had to say, because it may be that the current set of duties within the Bill provides for that. That may be a glimmer of hope. Indeed, the whole question about the duty to foster a culture of innovation is a kind of fig leaf. What board is going to treat that as an absolute duty that it needs to plan in and set particular duties to its team for? In a sense, it will be an optional extra if we are not careful.

To tell your Lordships the truth, I am not entirely convinced that we are going to be able to—in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege—“galvanise” the NHS. I thought that was a splendid word; it has a certain electricity about it. I do not think anything in the current Bill is going to deliver that galvanising impact, and we will be left with the disconnect that the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, talked about if we are not careful. But in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

42: Schedule 2, page 137, line 43, at end insert—
“(7) The constitution must provide for one non-voting member to be appointed by the local healthwatch organisations whose areas fall wholly or partly within the area of the integrated care board.”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment provides for local healthwatch organisations to be represented on integrated care boards in a non-voting capacity.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group concerning Healthwatch and, although it is important, I shall attempt to be brief.

We debated this, of course, in the Health and Social Care Bill 2012. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Patel, led a debate in which he called for the national Healthwatch to be made independent. He said then that embedding Healthwatch in England in the CQC was a mistake. I agreed with him then and I agree with him now. I would argue to the Government that there would be a big advantage in making Healthwatch fully independent. Of course, I am also concerned about local Healthwatch, to make sure it has enough influence in the new system as well.

It is right to pay tribute to the work of Healthwatch. I think it has done a good job since it has been established. Recent reports of national Healthwatch have been about access to dental care, on which I have an Oral Question in a week or two’s time. It undertook a very interesting analysis of the Government’s social care plans compared with proposals, and compared that with what people had told Healthwatch would make social care better.

Locally, my own Healthwatch in Birmingham has done some excellent work. I particularly mention a recent report on digital exclusion during the pandemic, when there was a sudden shift—like everywhere—towards remote access to care. Birmingham Healthwatch identified five principles for post-Covid-19 care, to ensure that everyone has access to the appointments they needed. This included a commitment to digital inclusion by treating the internet as a universal right. I believe its work has contributed more generally to the way in which this is being taken forward in the system. I think that, under the circumstances it has been operating in—not without difficulty and not without some tensions with local authorities—it has made a good start.

I want to just push Healthwatch on a little further and I want the Government to help. First, I am absolutely convinced that national Healthwatch should be an independent body. I have never understood the thinking that it should be a statutory committee within the CQC. I assume it is because, at the time, the Government were going through one of those wearying bonfire of the quangos that all Governments go through before they set up new quangos, to then have another bonfire a few years later. It just makes no sense. Clearly, they have complementary roles, and I am sure that the CQC takes note of what Healthwatch says, but they are different roles: one is the statutory regulator; the other has a responsibility for raising issues on behalf of the public who use the health services.

The question then arises of how we can strengthen Healthwatch at the local level. Will the systems, the integrated care partnerships and integrated care boards, listen to what Healthwatch has to say? A recent survey of ICS leaders—all there, in position—for Healthwatch England and NHS England shows that 80% would support Healthwatch having a formal seat at the table of the ICB if it were set out in legislation or guidance. What about the other 20%? Should it really be down to the vagaries of local leadership to exclude Healthwatch from those local bodies? I really do not think so.

I do not know if the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in answering, is going to be of a centralist or localist philosophy, or both, but it is always interesting to discuss. He and I have been discussing NHS structure for some 25 years now, and somehow the arguments tend to go on. It would be a real advantage for boards and partnerships to have Healthwatch around the table. It need not have voting members—indeed, I do not think it should. It is doing incredibly good work and has not been given enough publicity or recognition by people in the NHS. This surely is a way in which we can do this.

The Government also need to look at the budgets of Healthwatch England, which is going to have to support extra work and will need to be given more resources. Through local authorities, we need to make sure local Healthwatch has enough resources to deal with the pressing issues and challenges it is going to face. Having said that, our job today is just to encourage national and local Healthwatch to build on what they have done. I hope we can do this in as positive a way as possible. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, is now able to speak and I invite her to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope I have given the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords some reassurance that Healthwatch England is already established, is performing effectively under the CQC and has the ability to perform its duties, purpose and functions. It has had a positive impact on health and care services by ensuring that NHS leaders and other decision-makers hear the user’s voice and use feedback to improve care—that is what it is all about. This has been a good and wide-ranging debate. I hope I have reassured your Lordships about the value we place on Healthwatch. However, we must balance this with the values of flexibility and local determination. For those reasons, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and all noble Lords who have taken part and been supportive of this group of amendments. I very much take what the noble Earl said about the general recognition of the importance of the work of Healthwatch, both nationally and locally, and the way it has gone about doing it. With Sir Robert Francis as the current chair of Healthwatch England, we have someone who commands a great deal of respect and gives the leadership one would expect from a person of that calibre and experience.

What we are looking for, though, is a visible sign of the Government’s intent on the importance of Healthwatch, both nationally and locally. Frankly, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, suggested in his very helpful intervention, having the status of being a committee of a regulator does not give the right appearance of the importance and independence of this body. My noble friend Lord Harris is absolutely right that there could be circumstances in which Healthwatch criticised the work of the CQC. Indeed, the more the CQC takes on system responsibilities, the more likely that is.

In relation to ICPs, the Government “expect”. It is a very short journey between the Government expecting something and putting it in legislation—I hope they will give that some thought.

On the noble Earl’s concern about the size of ICBs, given what he said about conflict of interest issues earlier today, he must recognise that the seats will be empty most of the time, as NHS trusts and local authorities will clearly have to excuse themselves from most of the current debates within ICBs, because the boards will be talking about resources, commissioning, the development of services and the forward plan, all of which those organisations will have a direct interest in. That is why the whole structure of ICBs needs looking at again.

I am very grateful to the noble Earl for taking back the issue my noble friend raised about resources and the way the money flows down to Healthwatch. There is a suspicion here; I think the money goes nationally to local government and then you depend on local authorities to decide how much they will give to each local Healthwatch. I am afraid we know, as we have seen in other services, that some of that resource tends to get—how shall I put it?—diverted into other areas. I never understood why the Government thought that this was a good way to fund Healthwatch. If you set it up nationally as an independent body, the obvious thing to do is give the resource straight to national Healthwatch to allocate locally. I suggest the Government give that serious consideration.

This is one issue that we will want to bring back on Report, as it is important that Parliament gives a very visible indication to the NHS that we think Healthwatch is doing a great job but we want to see it have more influence in future. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 42 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I too am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for bringing forward this group of amendments. As many of the Committee will remember vividly, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, has reminded us, accountability for the health service was a topic of considerable debate at the time of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 as it went through Parliament. The constitutional position of the Secretary of State was closely scrutinised and the current wording in the Act is very much the product of those discussions. I remind the Committee especially of the hard work done by the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, who was at that time chair of the Constitution Committee, her colleagues on the committee and many others, including my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who did so much to develop the current wording of the clause. The coalition Government accepted the Constitution Committee’s recommendations in full.

I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Baroness’s characterisation of the reasons why it was thought appropriate to modify the wording that described the Secretary of State’s responsibility for the health service. As noble Lords will be aware, the idea that the Secretary of State himself provides services has not for many years reflected the real world. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, rightly said, and as the Committee will remember, it was decided in 2012 that it was better that the law reflected the reality of the modern NHS rather than retaining outdated language. I do not think that the last 10 years have proved that proposition wrong. The current legislative framework allows some of the health services in England to be provided by entities, such as NHS foundation trusts, that are legally distinct from the Secretary of State. That will continue to be the case and should be recognised in the law.

I understand the concerns that Ministers might somehow avoid being responsible for ensuring the continuation of a comprehensive health service. However, there have been many vigorous debates in Parliament about the NHS in the years since those changes in 2012, and they have demonstrated that there has, quite rightly, been no loss in the strong sense of governmental accountability for the NHS felt by both government and Parliament. Indeed, the House amended the Act in 2012 to put beyond doubt that:

“The Secretary of State retains ministerial responsibility to Parliament for the provision of the health service in England.”


That has not changed in this Bill; the wording will remain set in statute.

I would gently caution against recreating the fiction that the Secretary of State provides services directly. It is much better to be clear that the role of the Secretary of State is to set strategic direction, oversee and hold to account NHS England and the other national bodies of the NHS and, occasionally, to intervene—as the noble Lord is doing.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl for giving way. Given what he has said—and I know that we will debate this later—I point out that it is curious that the Government wish to take on a power of direction over NHS England, if that is so. I guarantee that that power will never be used because the Secretary of State’s power of direction never has to be used. Once this is passed, that changes the relationship; NHS England will know that the Secretary of State has that power of direction. Although I have tabled some amendments to try to modify it, I have no objections to the general principle, since I do not think that a quango such as NHS England should be freely floating. But we need to recognise that it is a fundamental change in the relationship to impose that power of direction again.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, as I was about to say, the 2012 Act does provide for the ability of the Secretary of State to intervene when that is necessary for the smooth and effective running of the system. Furthermore, we should not exaggerate the extent to which this Bill modifies the 2012 provisions. As the noble Lord said, we will debate the powers of direction on a future occasion but, when we come to do so, my colleagues and I on the Government Benches will contend that the powers of direction, such as they are, are very narrow and specific in their scope. They have been deliberately framed in that way to reflect experience over recent years. I would not be in favour of reopening this piece of drafting, given its history and the effort that noble Lords from all sides of the House made to build an effective consensus in respect of the 2012 Act.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about dental access. The department is working closely with NHS England to increase levels of service as quickly as possible. Practices are continuing to prioritise patients based on clinical need. Dental practices are now being asked by NHS England and NHS Improvement to deliver at least 85% of contracted units of dental activity—UDAs—between January and March 2022 to provide improved access for patients. These updated figures are based on what many practices have been able to deliver to date. They take into account adherence to the latest infection prevention and control guidance. I hope that this is helpful to the noble Baroness.

I hope also that I have explained to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, why I cannot entertain her amendments, but also that I have reassured her that the accountability chain between health services, Ministers and Parliament, which lies at the centre of her concerns, remains intact.

Health and Social Care

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 9th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be brief—

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely and I invite her to speak.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

As I said in my opening remarks, we are committed to spending an additional £5.4 billion across the next three years. This will end the risk of unpredictable care costs and include at least £500 million to support the social care workforce.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, can I ask the noble Baroness about the people currently paying their way in care homes? Are they to get no credit whatsoever for the fees they pay up to October 2023? Is it not grossly unfair if the clock starts only when we reach that point?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

This has been an intractable issue. If all parties had managed to deal with it better, people in the situation the noble Lord mentioned—for whom we have a lot of sympathy—would have been helped. Unfortunately, that is not the case. We have announced a package that will begin with the new cap in October 2023.

Procedure and Privileges

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 13th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in paying tribute to the amazing efforts of our superb staff.

I have found the debate today fascinating and of a high order. However, it is a pity that it is taking place after the committee has agreed its report and not before. I suspect that is the reason that the committee seems to have combined the worst aspects of how we worked pre Covid with the worst aspects of our current working. As a result, we risk ending up with a House out of kilter with modern working practices, anaesthetised debate and further control exercised by the Government and party Whips. My noble friend Lord Grocott gave a very good illustration of that.

Why are we not allowing flexible working to continue? Up and down the country, employers are adjusting to what we have learned during the pandemic—that more flexible working suits employees and employers. Yet here we are insisting that we all must return to the old way of working. The Government even want us to return to outdated working hours. As my noble friend Lord Adonis has argued, working late into the evening is not conducive to effective working. Only the Government gain from the House starting its business in the middle of the afternoon, leaving far less time for questions, debates and, mostly crucially of all, votes in prime time, before attendance drops off rapidly after 6 pm. Why should we be so destructive of family life?

My second concern, which I share with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is about the recommendation to keep speakers’ lists for Oral Questions. Oral Questions should provide the pivotal moment for the House. In normal circumstances, the House is full, and Ministers are on their mettle as questions come at them from all sides—questions which, at their best, are short, spontaneous and follow the debate, rather than pre-packaged. Sadly, Oral Questions during Covid have been anything but. Even with the extension of 10 minutes, not everyone on the full list of speakers always gets in. This is due to long-winded questions followed by often pre-ordained questions read out by some Members seemingly oblivious to what the Minister has said or to the debate that has gone before. Frankly, it has become a bore, where Ministers get away with much and often answer in kind with their own long and laboured responses. I appreciate that there has been a vote on this, and I understand that some Members did not like the unruly nature of Oral Questions before the pandemic, but surely my noble friend Lord Grocott was right about the binary nature of the question. I ask the Senior Deputy Speaker: why were we not asked about the timings of the House? Why are we not allowed to discuss and vote on whether we should have a proper Speaker?

If we are to have 10 minutes and a speakers’ list for each Question, surely, if Members know in advance that they are going to be on the list, it is not asking too much of them to stick to the advisory time limit for their words. If they do not, why can they not be pulled up immediately? This is not happening because, of course, the Lord Speaker is not able to call order. Those who argue against the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, say that it is the end of self-regulation. Well, I am afraid that self-regulation is not working. When I first came to the House in 1997, it did—Members gladly gave way to others, but that no longer pertains. The current role of the Leader in assisting the House does not seem to be working. I do not think there is any substitute for us having a Speaker who can ensure that some of the issues raised today about the difficulties of, say, disabled Members getting in, can be dealt with. It would retain the essential spontaneity that we need.

I will vote for all three amendments, but I appeal to the Senior Deputy Speaker to reflect hard on this debate, go back to his committee and, over the Recess, work on a new scheme to put to us in the autumn. At the least, he should agree to an extensive review of our procedures in the autumn, taking full account of Members’ views and allowing us to become the modern and effective Chamber we all want to be.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 13th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate. As I said, it will be for the inquiry and the chair to determine the scope of requests for evidence and who to call for evidence, but as it will be a comprehensive inquiry I am sure that the views of representatives from across society, including faith groups, will be heard.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, can I take the noble Baroness back to the point made by my noble friend Lady Smith? Yesterday, the Prime Minister said that the reason for delaying the start of the inquiry was the disruption it would cause to health workers working in the middle of a pandemic. If that is the case, why are the Government insisting on bringing a NHS restructuring Bill to Parliament yet again? It is hugely disruptive and expensive at a time when NHS staff should be focusing on dealing with the backlog of patients who need to be treated. Will the Government delay the Bill?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

As I set out in my response to the noble Baroness, there are a number of factors in why we believe that spring 2022 is the right time to start this inquiry. I gave them earlier. Of course the noble Lord is absolutely right that we need to tackle the worrying backlog of people needing care from the NHS, which is why we have committed billions of pounds to doing so, including £1 billion to tackle waiting lists by providing up to 1 million extra checks, scans and additional operations. We will continue to prioritise urgent and cancer care, as well as the recovery of non-urgent diagnostics and treatment so that patients receive the best healthcare as quickly as possible. That is an absolute priority.

Covid-19: Road Map

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

No, I am afraid I cannot.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, could I come back to a question asked by my noble friend Lady Smith? At the SAGE meeting on 4 February, it was identified that people who work in occupations which involve a higher degree of physical proximity tend to have a higher Covid-19 mortality rate. We know that many of those people do not have access to work- place sick pay and that 20,000 people per day are not self-isolating because they cannot afford not to work. Will the Government agree that those who do not have access to occupational sick pay should automatically receive the £500 test and trace support payment?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I think that I have said everything I can say on the support payment by explaining where we have extended eligibility. On the noble Lord’s question about occupational risk, as I said in response to the noble Baroness, it is not the only factor driving increased infection and mortality in certain groups. The evidence shows that a range of socioeconomic and geographical factors, such as occupational exposure, population density, household composition and pre-existing health conditions, contribute to the higher infection and mortality rates for some groups. In making decisions on phase 2 of the rollout, we will balance these factors alongside occupational risk.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

We will be, and we are, looking at additional measures for international travel. Pre-departure testing is an option that we are considering for an extra layer of protection, which would be in addition to our mandatory 10-day self-isolation period for countries not on the travel corridor or the test and release scheme. Work is going on in the DfT and an announcement on decisions around that will be made in the coming days.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, could the noble Baroness come back to the issue of community pharmacists? They have huge experience of flu vaccination, are used to opening all hours and are very accessible, yet the Government and NHS seem very reluctant to use them in the vaccination programme. Is that being reviewed?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

As I said, as supply becomes more available, community pharmacies will be involved in the programme as we roll things out, so conversations are certainly ongoing.

Covid 19: Winter Plan

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

Well, I assure my noble friend that the legal consistency of the new tiers—as I said, they are now standardised—will be complemented by targeted communications and public health campaigns to inform and influence behaviours to strengthen the sense of personal responsibility in behaviours that will be important to combat the spread of the virus over the winter, together with using local mass testing programmes, with local knowledge about how to encourage people to use them. All that will lead to the kinds of conversations and messaging that my noble friend talks about.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the public health campaigns she just referred to need also to be targeted at people over uptake of vaccines? Is she concerned about the rise in anti-vaccine sentiment? A UCL survey recently showed that, while 78% of people were willing to get the vaccine, only half considered themselves “very likely to”, with 10% saying that they were “very unlikely to”. There is pernicious anti-vaccine sentiment around. What action will the Government take to deal with it?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

We have a central government unit that will be working on this, but also DCMS is working very closely with social media platforms to help identify false claims, exactly as the noble Lord said, about both the virus and the vaccine and, where necessary, promoting authoritative sources of information in their place. I assure the noble Lord that we are very cognisant of these issues and are working hard to make sure that the rollout of the national vaccination plan is accompanied by a public health strategy and message to make sure that people understand that we will always put the safety of the public first, and that any vaccine that is approved will have gone through an incredibly rigorous process to pass that hurdle, as the noble Lord will well know.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has withdrawn so I call the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this was the most telling comment from the SAGE meeting on 21 September:

“The more rapidly interventions are put in place, and the more stringent they are, the faster the reduction in incidence and prevalence, and the greater the reduction in COVID-related deaths”.


Do the Government not owe it to the public to spell out for them the consequences for health and deaths of the decision to reject the advice from SAGE?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

As I have already said, we took a robust and proportionate approach in September, introducing the rule of six and the curfew. We have done the same again. As I said, our new tiered approach came into effect only today. We believe that it will be effective and we look forward to working with leaders across local government and the devolved Administrations to make sure that we get a grip on the virus and bring it down and ensure that we all follow the rules so that we go into winter in the best possible situation.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 20th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I very much welcome the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. I stress its cross-party nature and the support that it has from all around the House. Even this late stage, I ask the Minister to take this back and consider it further between Report and Third Reading. I was very proud of the actions of the Labour Government which led to the banning of smoking in public places. I worked with my noble friend Lord Faulkner and other noble Lords across the House in getting through the Lords the amendment that banned smoking in cars when children are present; we have a great history of working together in relation to measures against smoking. I do not see why, even at this late stage, we cannot do this again. With Covid-19, we know that many of the worst-affected have been those with cardiovascular or lung disease. Equally, Covid-19 has had a powerful impact on people taking up exercise programmes, fighting obesity and giving up smoking as a result; some 1 million people have done this during lockdown and there could be more.

This amendment, in whatever guise, could be helpful to many people. Far from having an adverse impact on business, smoke-free areas would be welcomed by most customers and would therefore bring in more trade; the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, surely had his finger right on the pulse in that. The measure is proportionate; the regime will apply only to licences on highways so not to pub, café or restaurant garden areas or pavement seating, where smoking is allowed. It also has support from local government. In addition, we need to think about the workers. The noble Lord, Lord Young, reminded us in Committee of the health risks to employees of passive smoking. Given the risks that those staff already carry, a duty of care is surely owed to them in respect of the risk from passive smoking.

My noble friend Lady Wilcox made a powerful speech, arguing that the decision should be left to the discretion of local authorities. I welcome the progress that my Front Bench has made on this. She also pointed to some technical deficiencies with the Bill. We have a way of clearing up technical deficiencies: either through a government amendment at Third Reading or, if the Government agree, by holding this over until a discussion can take place between all of us before we reach Third Reading. I hope that, even at this late stage, we can attempt to reach some form of consensus; I urge everybody concerned to do all they can to do so.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My Lords, possibly the most surprising thing about Amendment 15 as drafted is that the signatories are predominantly Liberal Democrats; it is not a particularly libertarian policy that they have come up with. Also, it seeks to unravel the compromise reached when the smoking ban was introduced. What I regret most about Amendment 15 is that it does not recognise the heavy investment that pubs, bars and restaurants have made in the outdoor facilities that they hope to open more of. For that reason, I regret that I shall be unable to support Amendment 15.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Howe, who, through my chairmanship of PASS, I know has spent a great deal of time with the hospitality industry; obviously, I have had dealings with the hospitality industry as well. It is keen to recognise—and I welcome—the compromise offered by the government Amendment 13: there will be a smoke-free seating element. Had Amendment 15 not been tabled, perhaps we would not have got to the position we are now in. I note that a number of noble Lords have expressed the wish that the Government should go further, but the beauty of Amendment 13 is that it has regard to the heavy challenges currently facing the hospitality and leisure sectors during the ongoing Covid crisis and the way they are seeking to reopen. I very much welcome the work that has gone into Amendment 13; I will be delighted to support it if we have to later this evening.