English Votes for English Laws

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I must apologise, too, that I shall speak in the gap. This has been an excellent debate and I hope that the Leader will be able to respond to the substantive points raised.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I pay tribute to the Leader—I do not think that she has an easy job—but she needs to convince us tonight that the Government are at least paying some attention to the points raised by your Lordships, because, so far, there is scant evidence of it.

I do not want to go into the circumstances of the failure to respond to our request that a Joint Select Committee be established, but it is a very serious matter that there has been no response. The Leader has prayed in aid Mr Allen’s amendment. Although it may be considered tomorrow, there is no guarantee that the Speaker in the other place will choose it. The noble Baroness prays in aid the amendment as a reason for not responding to your Lordships, but of course her colleagues in the other place will then do everything they can to determine that, even if it is called, it will be defeated. That is not a satisfactory response.

I have noted the point that Chris Grayling made, that he wishes to see our Constitution Committee work with the Commons Procedure Committee, but what does this mean and what if the two committees disagree? If he wants the committees to work together, why on earth not establish a Joint Select Committee?

Of course, we are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lang, who made a helpful intervention informing us that his committee has agreed to accept the task that it has been asked to do.

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

It is not being suggested that we work together with one of the committees in the other House; we all work independently and we would be more concerned with the output that came through to this House rather than what goes on down there.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I fully understand that, but the question I am raising is: what happens if the two committees reach different conclusions? That is why I think it would have been much better if there had been a Joint Select Committee. From what the noble Lord has said—and I hope that the Leader will agree with me on this—it is clear that accepting this proposition and agreeing to do the work does not mean that the committee is saying that it endorses EVEL or the way in which the Government have chosen to do it.

So many risks are involved in the changes—so many risks to our constitution and so many risks to the union—yet the noble Baroness describes them as simply a matter of procedure and the property of the other place. It is a terrible precedent to use Standing Orders in the other place to make what is a huge constitutional change. We have heard that the contrast between the position of Scottish Members here—the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was very clear on this—and in the other place is not simply a matter of procedure, and nor is the role of the Commons Speaker. The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, spoke eloquently about the problems of a Speaker being embroiled in hugely controversial political decisions. The 31 pages of memorandum from the Cabinet Office that we have seen are mostly about the Speaker’s role. There are dangers in involving the Speaker—even with the aid of two wise people, as the health docs used to say—and sharing that decision does not fill one with confidence.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, raised an important point. A Bill passed by your Lordships’ House goes to the Commons and is passed there, but is vetoed by English MPs because of the lack of a double majority. The constitutional implications of that are profound.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, made a pertinent point on whether Scottish MPs are to be given a veto in the circumstances he described. My noble friend Lord Reid gave us wise words about the dangers of establishing a series of grievances that put the union at risk, and they should be a warning to us all.

My time is up. I would simply ask the noble Baroness to really convince us that the Government are going to listen. The profound threat to our union and the integrity of the United Kingdom is very apparent in the debate tonight. Procedures in the Commons are not the way to do it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I will come in a moment to ping-pong and how amendments made by this House are considered by the other place, but I disagree with the noble Lord about his interpretation of what I am saying. I am very clear that there is a difference between somebody having the power to stop something and somebody having the power to force something through that others are not in agreement with.

Moving on to this House, and to pick up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, as I have already said, our powers remain exactly the same and our procedures are not affected. We will be able to consider legislation in the future in exactly the same way as we do now. When we amend legislation and we send a Bill back to the other place, the Speaker will have to certify our amendments again. He will certify whether the amendments that have been made—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The Leader says that what has been proposed does not change anything in this House. My question is: why not? I go back to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. This is a most extraordinary situation, where his MP will not be allowed to take part in key decisions, whereas he, as a Member residing in Scotland, is. We have yet to hear any convincing argument about why the two Houses are being treated differently.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Although my noble friend does not agree with the reason why the two Houses are being treated differently, he answered his own question, which is that we are all Peers of the United Kingdom. We do not represent any particular part of the United Kingdom. As I said when I first repeated the Statement that introduced these proposals a few months ago, as much as I am proud to come from Beeston and wanted to take Beeston in my title, I do not represent Beeston. None of us represents any particular part of the country, so that is why we are treated differently.

When our amendments go to the other place, the Speaker will be asked to certify whether they apply only to England or England and Wales. The other place will consider our amendments in the Chamber in exactly the same way as they do now: the whole House of Commons will consider the amendments made by your Lordships’ House. When MPs come to vote on any such amendments, the votes will be counted for a double-majority. If the amendments that we have made to legislation affect only England or England and Wales, it will be necessary for those MPs to approve our amendments as well as the whole House of Commons.

The noble Lord says, from a sedentary position, that that is a veto. But we have to take a step back for a moment and remember that what we are introducing here is English votes for English laws. We are saying that we want Members of Parliament who represent English constituencies to have a stronger voice. It would make a mockery of that if MPs from those constituencies were not able to have a stronger voice when asked to consider amendments that affect only their constituencies.

This is not the process for amendments that apply to the UK as a whole, but for those that apply to England or England and Wales only. If the House of Commons as a whole votes in favour, but the English or English and Welsh MPs do not support measures that apply only to their constituencies, we will receive back a message that says the House of Commons does not agree with the amendments that we have made. The key point is that we will receive a message in exactly the same way as we do now, with a reason why the House of Commons has decided not to accept the amendments. It will be up to the Government, as they are now, to consider very carefully what has been said by the House of Commons and to consider what we might want to put forward to this House. This House will then decide what it wants to do. If this House still does not agree, it will send the message back again—so our amendments will be considered in exactly the same way. But we cannot introduce English votes for English laws without the MPs who represent English or English and Welsh constituencies having the stronger voice that they deserve when this House wants to introduce something that will affect only those places.

House of Lords Reform

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am very happy to be corrected later on, perhaps by the Leader of the House.

More importantly, I am not sure that numbers have ever counted for much in the House of Lords. In every single Parliament between 1945 and 2001, Labour were in a small minority in the House, particularly in the 1980s and 1990s. Yet, when in government they were always able to carry the Queen’s business—as did the Conservative Party—but perhaps more important than that, when in opposition they were extremely effective. In fact, I have always thought that the Labour Party was better in opposition in the House of Lords than in government.

One of the reasons for that is that we all recognise the limits of our power in the House of Lords. Yet, this century we have been testing the limits of that power. While we as a House might have become more relevant, and perhaps more political, I am not sure that we have become more powerful as a House, and nor should we. The House of Lords defeats the Government from time to time, but what is much more powerful than defeat is the strength of the argument that is deployed and the influence that is brought to bear, particularly if there is a sign of a rebellion from the party in government.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I recollect that during his time as Leader of the Opposition in your Lordships’ House, he and other Opposition parties defeated the Labour Government on, I think, 33% of all the votes. Is he now recanting from that?

[Lord Strathclyde]

When the noble Lord reads my words, he will see that I said that far more powerful than defeating the Government was the strength of the argument. I maintain that that was the case even when we defeated the Government when I was Leader of the Opposition.

As other noble Lords have said, what also counts is that this House should do what it is asked to do: holding the Executive to account; scrutinising and revising legislation; debating the great issues of the day and informing the Government and the people of our collective views; holding great committees of inquiry that take evidence; and thinking through the solutions to the difficult issues that face our country. The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition indicated that that might not be complementing the work of the House of Commons, but that is exactly what my noble friend the Leader of the House meant when she said that we should complement the Commons. I very much welcome the fact that the Leader of the Opposition is still in post. It is a great relief to us all that she was reconfirmed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Astor (Con)]

My Lords, there has not been one speaker who does not agree that the House of Lords has become too big and needs to reform if it is to survive as a respected revising Chamber. The age-old question is how. There are perfectly respectable arguments for an elected second Chamber, for an appointed Chamber and perhaps even for no second Chamber at all. The recent attempt in the last Parliament, with some elected and some appointed Peers—one could call it the “Clegg plan”—fell through the gap in the middle and was quite rightly rejected by the House of Commons.

We have heard that some would prefer a retirement age and some a limit of service, all with their advantages and disadvantages, which are well understood by your Lordships. There is also the suggestion of only one in when two, or perhaps three, leave, which might take quite a long time to work. What is clear is that reform of this House must now come from this House. It must be acceptable to the main political parties and to the House of Commons. The alternative is probably, one day, abolition by the House of Commons, unless we come up with a solution.

I cannot resist adding my thoughts to those of other noble Lords on a solution. It is somewhat similar to the proposal put forward by my noble friend Lord Jopling. It would involve legislation, but as we know from the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, it is possible to get one’s legislation through—it is a long and tortuous process, but one gets there in the end. I believe that this House should remain appointed. Its role must be to hold the Government to account and to revise, but ultimately the Government must always be able to get their legislation through this Chamber. We must not be able permanently to block legislation; the Government must always get their business through. I believe that the composition should be no more than that of the House of Commons—say, 600 or whatever the House of Commons turns out to be. The Cross Benches should be limited to about 100.

After every general election, the leaders of the political parties in this House shall agree numbers based on the numbers of MPs elected to the House of Commons in their respective parties. They shall then hold a ballot, similar to the ballots conducted by the hereditary Peers, to limit numbers within their respected parties. This way Peers elect themselves; they know best who should continue to serve in this House. Leave it to noble Lords to decide who stays; they know best. It worked for hereditary peers when we had that reform. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde said that it was a painful process, but I do not think it was painful; I think that it worked rather well. I should say that that is perhaps because I was elected—I think largely because, having a name beginning with “A”, it came top of the list; had it been further down, God knows what would have happened, but luckily it was in alphabetical order. If a Peer cannot remain in this House for whatever reason, there could be a by-election among the political parties. During a Session, the Prime Minister would be able to advise Her Majesty to create further Peers, either to become Ministers in this House or to top up numbers.

I am sure that the Lib Dems and now UKIP want it to be based on share of the vote. I do not think that that would work because it would produce a House very different from the House of Commons. It would undoubtedly lead to a logjam of legislation, and it would not stand the test of time.

I also believe that we should look at the Bishops’ Benches. They should also limit their numbers of who should attend. I have always believed that we should find some way of ensuring that other faiths are better represented in this House than they are now.

The result of my modest proposal—it is simple, which is important—is that the Government would have a majority, but they could be easily defeated by a combination of opposition parties and the Cross Benches. We would still be a revising Chamber; we would still have clout. We might be respected, so that we might even be able to persuade the SNP to nominate Peers to attend this Chamber.

I hope that the opposition parties and the leader of the Cross Benches will work with the Government to consider proposals. Time is of the essence and we must not lose it. I understand that the position of the Lib Dems is that they do not feel bound by the Salisbury convention. If that is correct and they oppose or wreck government Bills in alliance with the Labour Party or whoever, that will put the final nail in the coffin of a second Chamber. I hope that when he comes to wind up on behalf of the Lib Dems the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, can enlighten us on their position. I do not think that the Commons would stand it.

We also have to wonder what the position is of the Labour Party. It has not been made clear. I am not sure whether its new leader is in favour of an elected second Chamber or its abolition. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will reveal all when he comes to sum up for his party.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sure that he gives thought to little else than Lords reform.

[Viscount Astor]

I am delighted to hear that. I very much look forward to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, telling us what the views of his new leader and of his party are.

There is a small window of opportunity. We should be brave and grab it. I am convinced that reform must come from this House. If it does, we have a chance of putting together a second Chamber that will stand the test of time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to wind up for the Opposition. I, too, would like to pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield, who made his valedictory speech. He has made a rich contribution to your Lordships’ House and he will be much missed in his retirement.

This has been an excellent, highly significant and encouraging debate. Of the many discussions that noble Lords have had about the future of this House, few have displayed such a unanimity of view on the need to constrain the size of the House, while enhancing our crucial scrutiny role.

The fact that the Government wanted to have this debate today and to postpone other important business suggests that they have been stung by the criticism of the latest list of appointments. Up to now, they have turned their face against substantive reform and rejected the widely supported proposal for a constitutional convention through which the whole future of the House of Lords would be looked at in the context of wider constitutional change. To noble Lords who hark back to the last Government and the ill-fated proposals of Mr Clegg, I say that the reason why they ultimately failed was that the Bill that was presented made no reference whatever to the relationship between an elected House of Lords and the House of Commons. That issue needs to be grappled with and the question of the respective powers of those two Chambers resolved. All the other issues that noble Lords have discussed concerning Scotland, Wales and devolution in general need to be looked at before we can hope to come up with any substantive proposal about the future of your Lordships’ House. That is why it is so important to have a constitutional convention. We remain committed to having one. My right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition has appointed a specific Member to take forward our proposals on such a constitutional convention. I hope that reassures the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, about the continuity of policy in this important area.

Let us come to the question of size. Size is not everything. I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, made and I pay tribute to him again for his royal commission report—which was so sensible that, as he said, unfortunately the political process made sure that nothing would be done with it. I take his point about not talking down our achievements, but the threat of an ever-increasing size is now putting our reputation at great risk.

We have all looked at the outstanding work of Meg Russell. She has examined what the impact would be if the coalition policy were still in place relating to securing a second Chamber reflective of the votes of political parties at the preceding general election. The Leader of the House has made it clear that that was a coalition Government policy and that the Government have moved on from that. We have seen that the Prime Minister appears keen on further appointments, and we seem to have a new policy, enunciated in Singapore, that the second Chamber should match the make-up of the Commons. We know from Meg Russell’s work that eventually, this would lead to a House of more than 1,000 Members. I suspect that, unlike the last time we had over 1,000 Members, we would have 1,000 pretty active Members, which would become unsustainable. If you then take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and add seats for the minority parties, clearly you reach a ludicrous position.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, talked about the public reaction to events over the summer, and there is no doubt that size has something to do with that reaction. We also know that many times under different Governments—too many times over the past few years—sensible incremental change has been postponed or rejected on the altar of substantive reform. However, substantive reform never came, and it ain’t gonna come any time soon. Therefore, the argument for making progress on the issue of size is persuasive and very clear tonight.

I am glad that the noble Baroness the Leader offered today to convene cross-party talks, including the Cross-Benchers. That is welcome, and Her Majesty’s Opposition are glad to take part. I hope she will respond to my noble friend Lady Taylor, who asked her to spell this out in a little more detail, and I am sure the House would welcome that. There is a great body of work to draw upon: that of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirrall; the work co-chaired so ably by my noble friend Lady Taylor; the work undertaken by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, which he talked about; and as we know, the Lord Speaker has also convened a working party. We have heard some very interesting and wide-ranging proposals tonight. I do not agree with all of them, but surely the options and parameters are now pretty clear. The stage is set for progress.

I want to emphasise a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. This will not work if the Government stick to the principle of the Prime Minister’s Singapore edict. One way or another, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will have to make it clear that the Government have no intention of seeking anywhere near a political majority in your Lordships’ House. Agreement on a scheme to reduce the number of Members will have to be predicated on an agreement on the appropriate balance between the different parties and the Cross Benches, plus the level of discretion to be given to any Prime Minister after a general election. If you look at all the options proposed for reducing the size of the House—whether it is age retirement, activity level, length of service, election or a combination of all those—the question of balance cannot be ignored. That is clear from research done by the Lords Library.

If we look at the outcome of retirement at 75, 80 or 85, the results are different for each option with regard to party balance. On the elections option, I know that the hereditary Peers opposite, who went through it, think that life Peers ought to be made to suffer in the same way; I have always recognised that that is a factor. I gently warn the House of the consequences of elections: the risk is that those with independence of thought might be put at some disadvantage. I do not need to spell that out to politicians in this House; if I mention the terrible word “slates”, they will know what I mean. If elections is the chosen option, you will still have to decide how many seats each party and the Cross Benches are going to get, and to do so you will have to reach a long-term agreement; otherwise, it just will not fly. At some point, the noble Baroness the Leader will have to face up to that. There is no point in going into discussions about a scheme of reduction without knowing how it will work out as regards balance.

This is also tied in to the effectiveness of this House as a revising Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is right. Our reputation depends on the power of argument, and often we have very powerful arguments but, as he found when he was Leader of the Opposition, and as I found to my cost as a government Minister at the time, the power of argument is not half supported by the power of votes. My goodness me, he was very happy to use those votes. Our ability to revise legislation is in direct proportion to the House’s ability, within the widely understood conventions, to ask the Government to think again by passing amendments or by the Government making concessions because of the risk of being defeated. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, was absolutely right on that point. Getting an appropriate balance is crucial to resolving the problems of size.

I end by saying that I am very proud to be a Member of this House. I am proud of what it does. I am proud of the fact that we improve legislation. I have no doubt whatever that we safeguard the public interest. In recent months our reputation has taken an awful knock. Every Member of the House has had to listen to comments made by friends, colleagues and members of the public, and frankly those comments have not been very kind. I thought the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, was absolutely right. We have all been damaged. The noble Lord, Lord Norton, is right too. Size is much less important than function, of course, but size is harming the way people look at us. It is part of what my noble friend Lord Soley called the perfect storm. It is upon us. The ball appears to have been put into our own court. Surely we should now accept the challenge and run with it.

House of Lords: Governance

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask the Leader of the House what discussions she plans to hold on reviewing the governance of the House of Lords in the light of the report of the House of Commons Governance Committee.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I discuss governance of the House in my meetings with the leaders of the other party groups, the Convenor, the Lord Speaker, the Chairman of Committees, the Clerk of the Parliaments and others, including the noble Lord himself, and will continue to do so. The report to which he refers will help to inform conversations on this subject in future.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will know that, among other recommendations of the Select Committee which have yet to be accepted by the Commons, it recommended that there should be a review of shared services between the two Houses and that there should be a drawing up of a medium-term programme towards a single bicameral services department. Does she accept that there is merit in providing joint services between the two Houses, provided that the House of Lords is an equal partner? Does this position of equality extend to discussions in future about the refurbishment of the estate?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is right to highlight in the report from the Commons committee a recommendation for us to explore the prospect of more shared services. I certainly support reviewing the scope for extending shared services between the two Houses when they would deliver greater value for money and lead to more effectiveness.

It would be premature for me to express a view on having a single department. Let us focus on what is possible and what would make sense in terms of us working together on those shared services. As the noble Lord rightly says, in any such arrangement, as exists already on shared services, the House of Lords must be an equal partner with the House of Commons.

Select Committee Reports: Government Responses

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend makes an important point. I believe that the quality of government responses to reports is the most important thing. I also say to the House that the written responses to Select Committee reports are not the only way that we should judge how the Government are responding to inquiries undertaken by Select Committees. If you look, for instance, at the Mental Capacity Act inquiry, which was another post-legislative scrutiny report, that committee made some very important recommendations that the Department of Health has responded to and acted on. Some changes that are important to the people affected are now taking place.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I notice that one of the responses that we are waiting for is on a report of the Communications Committee on broadcast general election debates, which was published on 13 May last year. Are we still awaiting the government response? The election is only a few weeks away, so I would have thought it would be timely for us to have a debate—or is the Prime Minister frit?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think the noble Lord is stretching the point here. The report he highlighted as one that has not yet been responded to has not been raised with me. If the relevant committee wanted to raise that as a concern with me then clearly I would raise it with my colleagues in government.

House of Lords

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 6th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, would have made a very good shop steward.

It is a great pleasure for me to wind up for the Opposition and to congratulate my noble friend Lord Williams. He has stimulated a very high-quality debate. Turkeys we may be, but pretty erudite turkeys at that.

I support my noble friend in asking the Leader of the House to encourage discussions within the appropriate committees of your Lordships’ House on the issue of size and, by definition, retirements, but I should say from the Opposition’s point of view that any discussion about size and retirements cannot be divorced from equally important considerations about the balance of parties and Cross-Benchers in your Lordships’ House and any implications that might have for an incoming Government after May 2015. Nor can such a discussion be divorced from more substantive discussions about the future of your Lordships’ House.

I congratulate my noble friend on his ingenuity in suggesting essentially the use of Standing Orders to introduce a limit on the number of active Members of your Lordships’ House. However, I have reservations about that, as does my noble friend Lord Clark. I do not believe that it could be in the gift of this House, through Standing Orders and in the absence of legislation, simply to state that a certain number should be the limit. I also agree with my noble friend Lady Taylor in being concerned that my noble friend Lord Williams’s proposal, as enunciated, would lock in the current balance of this House into the next Parliament. That said, he has surely performed an invaluable function in stimulating an excellent debate.

Of course, many noble Lords—in both this debate and the corridors of the House of Lords—express concern about the growing size of the House. Yet a very full Question Time actually adds to the interest and intensity—as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, certainly by implication, when he talked about the decision of Attlee and Churchill in relation to the size of the Commons. It is certainly true that in some debates speakers are given impossibly short periods of time, but those are a rarity. Overall, the House has responded quite well to the increase in numbers. I suggest that this is not so much a question of the size having an impact on the effectiveness of the House but rather more on our reputation.

Given the patronage power held by the Prime Minister of the day to determine the size and balance of the House, it is always likely to increase in size. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who was very much welcomed to our debate, welcomed new blood—particularly Tory new blood, because we have had rather a lot of it in recent years. I do not want to go back and repeat what noble Lords said about the coalition agreement stating that the size of the House should reflect the votes cast at the last election. We know from Meg Russell’s excellent work that, if fully implemented, that agreement would have meant that by the end of this Parliament we would have had more than 1,000 Members.

We know that, going forward, if you then take account of changes in the votes cast at the next election, the issues of minority parties and parties that have a reduction in the number of votes cast, that almost becomes the baseline by which you then judge how many seats have to be appointed for the other parties that have increased their votes. That is clearly a nonsense. I hope that the noble Baroness, the Leader of the House, will respond to that point. The particular reason that it is a nonsense is because there is no route for significant numbers of Members to leave the House. Until that is grasped and some kind of understanding is reached about what should be the appropriate balance between the parties and the Cross Benches, it will be very difficult to implement the kind of scheme that noble Lords want.

My party, as noble Lords said, is committed after the election to a constitutional convention that will look at the place of the second Chamber in the context of political reform throughout the United Kingdom. That is a much more considered approach than that of the party opposite and its recent headlong rush to foist an ill-thought-out policy on English MPs without a thought for the wider consequences for the integrity of the union. We have to consider these matters in the round.

Of course, on the assumption that the constitutional convention leads to a successful conclusion in relation to your Lordships’ House, followed by legislation and then implementation, it would clearly be a little time before the substantive change were actually to take place. There are lots of ifs in that journey, so I disagree with my noble friend Lord Maxton. There is a case for the House trying to deal with some of our immediate challenges in advance of that substantial change, if it were to come about.

I hope that the Leader of the House will be able to give some consideration to the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Sutherland and Lord Forsyth, about procedures and the point raised by my noble friend Lord Foulkes about the role of the Speaker. Governance is another issue. We have just had a report from the Select Committee established to look at governance in the Commons. It suggested more joint working between the Commons and the Lords. At the very least, we should look at that to see how we might respond in a positive way.

Size is clearly another matter that we could discuss now in an interim period, assuming that substantive change will take some years to come. I already said that any agreement on a scheme to set a limit on the size of your Lordships’ House has to take account of an appropriate balance between the political parties and the Cross Benches. That is very important. The noble Lord, Lord Luce, said earlier that the House of Lords is an effective body. However, crucially, for it to be effective, Governments have to face defeat—or fear it —because in the end that is the only way that changes to legislation are made. There is no question that there is a difference between what happened from 1997 to 2010 and what has happened subsequently. The last Labour Government was defeated 528 times in 1,701 Divisions —some 31% of the total. We are now in a new position. With coalition government, it is effectively much harder for an Opposition to win votes. Therefore, the number of votes the Opposition win is less than 31%.

My point is that this is important, because unless Governments really fear defeat, the House of Lords cannot be effective as a proper revising Chamber. When I was a Minister, I knew that if the Opposition combined with Cross-Benchers on key points of concern about legislation, one way or another, we had to respond. Sometimes it would be toughed out through ping-pong, but more often we had to respond. That precious balance between the two Houses ensures the effectiveness of the second Chamber.

I say in conclusion simply that it is right to think about ways in which we can deal with the size of the House, but we must be very careful that in so doing we do not upset the precious balance between the two Houses and the role of the Government and the Opposition in your Lordships’ House. I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. It has been an excellent debate and we all look forward to the noble Baroness’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

When I say “right time”, I mean that it does not have to be all the time. Some of the rarest contributors can be the most valuable Members of this House if they exercise self-restraint, a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland.

I am not going to comment on each proposal put forward today and I am certainly not going to rule anything out before there is an opportunity for proper consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, urged me to take this matter seriously and I do, but I also say to noble Lords that we must guard against sounding too defeatist in the way that we speak about this House and the number of Peers who attend. Some noble Lords have used what I thought was rather colourful language, which I would not deploy myself, to describe this House. Right now we are doing a good job. We remain a strong and considered revising Chamber, one where a noble Lord, whether a Minister or a member of the Back Benches, will always have to make a compelling case to win an argument and the support of the House. The Opposition waste no opportunity to highlight that the Government have been defeated over 100 times during this Parliament, so I was a little surprised at the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, represented what has happened over the past few years. The other point that is worth making is that in terms of the effectiveness of the contributions made by noble Lords in our debates—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Would the Minister not agree that coalition government changes the dynamic of the second Chamber? We can trade statistics but there is no doubt about it: the Government are winning more votes than the previous one did, and that is clearly because the two government parties together have a large majority over the Opposition. That was not the case under the previous Government. It makes a difference.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We do not have a majority because there are Cross-Benchers in this House, as the noble Lord knows well. The point that I was going to add was that we should not measure the effect of the contributions made in this House just by government defeats. A huge number of government amendments are made to legislation as a result of dialogue with noble Lords during the passage of legislation.

Clearly we cannot keep growing indefinitely, and that is one of the reasons why we have introduced a massive change in this Parliament: Peers are now able to retire permanently. That change reinforces our ability to give the public confidence in the laws that Parliament makes. Just as we should expect Members to contribute on occasions when they are especially well placed to do so, so we are now able to support noble Lords who wish to retire when they feel that that is no longer the case for them. Some noble Lords have argued against an age limit; some, like my noble friend Lord Naseby, have spoken in support of one. Consideration about retirement is not just a matter of age; it is also a matter of contribution, a point made by those speaking today.

I am not here to prescribe how or whether a contribution can be specified, because retirement is a deeply personal decision. We were all moved by Lord Jenkin’s valedictory speech, and I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, quoted from it today. However, if we focus on the purpose of the House of Lords and are committed to increasing our effectiveness as an unelected Chamber, we should be able to support each other in deciding when it is time to retire.

I turn to some of the points that noble Lords made about the need for restraint in new appointments. As has been acknowledged, the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, focuses on attendance, not appointments. That said, the Prime Minister has indeed exercised his prerogative power to recommend appointments in a restrained way. I dispute what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, said, not least because my noble friend Lord Strathclyde asked me to confirm whether there are only 34 more Members on the four main Benches than there were in 2007. That is incorrect. In the light of the retirement of Lord Jenkin, today the number is 33. It has gone down.

The idea of a moratorium on appointments was put forward by some noble Lords. As I have already said, and this has been supported by noble Lords today, it is right that there continue to be new appointments to this House so that we may bring fresh views and perspectives to our work. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, referred to vote share and the coalition agreement. That was in the coalition agreement. It is and has always been a general aim, not a mathematical equation, but it is worth pointing out that during this Parliament the Prime Minister has appointed 47 Labour Peers as well as Conservative and Liberal Democrat Peers.

Some noble Lords raised questions about the pressures on our practices, procedures and resources. Of course we should try to mitigate them. On specific matters of procedure and practice, I set out my views in some detail during the short debate last month led by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, so I shall not repeat them, except to say that I disagree with him about the role of the Lord Speaker. I believe that it is important that we properly respect and uphold our self-regulating nature because it is again about being different from the Commons, and the fact that we are different adds value to what happens in the parliamentary process.

I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, has spoken to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, who has indicated that he is willing to provide the undertaking that the noble Lord is seeking, namely that that committee should consider the issue he has raised with a view to reporting back to the House. I think that that is an appropriate next step as part of an ongoing discussion. My noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord MacGregor, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and others suggested an options paper by the Clerk to inform the discussion of the Procedure Committee. A range of ideas has been put forward today by my noble friends Lord Jopling, Lord MacGregor and Lord Wei, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and others, so there is quite a lot to feed in to any discussion that may take place in the Procedure Committee. I would like that discussion to be informed by our purpose of ensuring that there is public confidence in the laws of the land and in what Parliament decides and to consider how we can be clear about what we expect from each other in contributing to that purpose.

I want to be specific in response to any suggestion that taxpayers’ money might be made available to encourage Members to retire. That remains very much a red line for me. That is not something that I want to support at all, for the reasons that other noble Lords have given today. The noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, asked about mechanisms, and the noble Lord, Lord Williams, was clear when he said that any mechanisms that we consider will be voluntary.

My noble friend Lord Cope is right that our powers to self-regulate go far, but they do not override Her Majesty the Queen’s power in the Life Peerages Act to create peerages for life with rights to sit and vote or the Prime Minister’s right to put forward to Her Majesty recommendations for appointments. However, while I am on the matter of regulation, I can respond to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, who asked about legislation to accelerate the appointment of women Bishops. A government Bill on that had its First Reading in the Commons just before Christmas, so that is proceeding.

G20 Summit

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 17th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement in the other place. I join her in expressing horror and revulsion at the barbaric murder of US aid worker Peter Kassig. Once again, this is a demonstration of ISIL’s evil ideology against innocent people. Our thoughts go out to his family at this terrible time. It reinforces our determination to defeat ISIL.

I will turn to the situation in Ukraine. The ceasefire agreed in September is extremely fragile and there are recent reports, confirmed by the OSCE, of further Russian military vehicles crossing the border. The noble Baroness reported on the Prime Minister’s meeting with Mr Putin. Does she think enough is being done to send a clear message to Russia about its aggression and to support President Poroshenko’s Government? Under what circumstances will the UK be pushing for further sanctions against President Putin and Russia? We are all aware of the way in which a conflict such as the one in Ukraine can generate headlines for a few weeks then be forgotten. This must not become a forgotten conflict.

I turn to the issues raised on the formal G20 agenda. As with any summit, the task is to turn good intentions into concrete measures. Tax avoidance is a problem which affects rich and poor countries alike. In June 2013, at the G8 summit, the Prime Minister promised that all UK Crown dependencies and overseas territories would produce registers on the real owners of shell companies. We are 17 months on from that summit: will the Leader of the House give an update on progress? This weekend, the G20 repeated the G8’s commitment that developing countries would have a place at the negotiating table, as part of the process to reform global tax rules. Can the noble Baroness say what progress has been made 18 months after the G8?

On climate change, I agree with her on the welcome steps on carbon emissions made by President Obama and the Chinese President last week. I also welcome the agreement to support the climate fund designed to help with the effects of climate change. When will the UK be announcing our contribution? Can the noble Baroness explain the delay in doing so? What is she doing to bring more sceptical countries with us for an ambitious agreement in Paris next year, not to mention the more sceptical noble Lords who sit behind her?

On the Ebola crisis, I welcome the UK’s role as the second-largest donor in helping tackle this potential threat to people, not just in west Africa but across the world. The G20 conclusions were short on specific commitments from other countries. What does the noble Baroness think we can do further to encourage other countries, including those in the EU, to ensure we tackle the crisis with aid, equipment and—especially—health workers?

Finally, I turn to the G20 conclusions on global growth. Today, the Prime Minister told us that there are red lights flashing in the global economy. This is what is known as getting your excuses in early. The Prime Minister used to tell us that the problems in the British economy were all to do with the British Government and nothing to do with international factors. Now he wants to tell us that, on his watch, they are all to do with international factors and nothing to do with the British Government.

Is it not true that, even before the Prime Minister went to Brisbane, we already knew his export target was off track and that the trade deficit is the highest it has been for 25 years? Before he went to Brisbane, he knew that Britain’s productivity had stagnated on his watch and that average families are £1,600 per annum worse off. The Prime Minister has gone from saying that everything is fixed thanks to him to saying everything is not fixed but it is nothing to do with him. He should have been listening all along to the British people, who see deep problems in an economy that is not working for them. Is it not time that the Prime Minister stopped blaming everybody else for an economy that is great for a few people at the top but is not delivering for most working people?

Iraq

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baronesses the Leader of the House and the Lord Speaker for readily agreeing to the recall of your Lordships’ House on such an important day. I also echo the thanks of the Chief Whip to the staff of the House and congratulate him on his appointment.

My right honourable friend the leader of the Opposition has made it clear that the Opposition will support the government Motion concerning military action against ISIL in Iraq. We do so on the basis that this is not about ground troops from the UK or UK military action elsewhere, as the noble Baroness has made clear. It is a mission aimed specifically at ISIL.

It is important we understand that ISIL is not simply another terrorist organisation. We have seen its hostage-taking, including innocent British and American citizens, the murder of David Haines and the holding of other British hostages. It is not just British citizens who are being threatened, but people from many different backgrounds, countries and creeds. The accounts we have heard of the actions of this organisation are chilling, and they are often taken against Muslims. As leading British Muslim scholars and imams wrote recently, ISIL is perpetuating,

“the worst crimes against humanity. This is not Jihad—it is a war against all humanity”.

ISIL’s ideology has nothing to do with the peaceful religion practised by people across the world and by many in our country.

It is always a heavy responsibility that falls to us as we decide whether to commit UK military forces, particularly when we are doing so in the absence of a threat to us by another state. When we have considered military action in previous debates in the House, the Opposition have set out criteria by which to assess the case for action. I return to those criteria today.

First, there is a need for just cause in any action we take. We believe that ISIL establishes this case on the humanitarian grounds I have already set out, and on the grounds of national interest. The international instability that will be created by the overthrow of the democratic Iraqi state would clearly have implications for the stability of the region and therefore for the United Kingdom. That includes the possibility that Iraq will become a haven and training ground for terrorism directed against the UK.

Secondly, military action must always be a last resort. Again, we believe this criterion has been met. ISIL has shown that it is not an organisation that could or should be negotiated with. However, any military action must be accompanied by political, diplomatic and humanitarian action against ISIL, including strengthening an increasingly inclusive and democratic Iraqi state. That work is under way. However, to make the political, diplomatic and humanitarian action possible, there must be military action to contain and help to counter the threat of ISIL in Iraq.

Thirdly, there must be a clear legal basis to provide legitimacy and legal force to our actions. As I have said, we support the Motion because we will be responding to the request of a democratic state in Iraq, fighting for its own survival. I believe that the legal case is clear and I echo the comments of the noble Baroness the Leader.

Fourthly, we must believe that there is a reasonable prospect of success before we take the grave step of committing our forces. Therefore, we need to be clear about the aim of the mission, which is to reinforce the democratic Government of Iraq, and to prevent the advance and help to roll back ISIL at the invitation of that democratic Government by using international military air power while the Iraqi army and the Kurdish Peshmerga conduct a ground campaign against ISIL. That is why it is right that the use of air power is accompanied by training and resources to support their efforts. Nobody should be in any doubt that this is a difficult mission and that it will take time, but there is already evidence that the US action is having the effect of holding back ISIL.

The fifth criterion is that there must be broad support in the region for reasons of both legitimacy, because this action must not be seen as a new form of imperialism, and effectiveness, because regional support is essential to the long-term success of the mission. At the end of August the Arab League made a statement calling for comprehensive measures to combat ISIL, and we now see a regional coalition of Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, as well as many other countries.

Finally, the proposed action must be proportionate. We must make sure that innocent civilians are protected. The Opposition welcome the assurances that we received in this regard, including concerning the need, as always, to do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties.

Having scrutinised these six conditions—just cause, last resort, legal basis, reasonable prospects, regional support and proportionality—we believe that they have been met. However, there are also a number of reasons why Britain should act and not stand by. We have been asked to help by the Iraqi Government. Our traditions of internationalism have always meant that we reach out and help others in need. A decision not to join would be a decision not to use our military capability to assist those in desperate need.

As the noble Baroness the Leader said, this is different from 2003. This case is about supporting a democratic state. There is no debate about the legal basis for action in Iraq. There is no argument about whether military action is a last resort, because surely nobody, whatever their view on the Motion being debated in the other place, can argue that there can be negotiation with ISIL. There is broad international support, with all 28 EU member states and the Arab League providing support in one way or another. This is multilateral action prompted by a legitimate democratic sovereign state.

There is no graver decision for our Parliament and our country, but protecting our national interests, security and the values for which we stand is why the Opposition will be supporting the action set out in the Motion being debated in the other place.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That Standing Order 10(6) (Hereditary peers: by-elections), which requires that by-elections take place within three months of a vacancy occurring, be dispensed with to allow the by-election following the death of Lord Methuen to take place on 21 October 2014.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House for some clarification? As we apparently have the ability to delay the by-election of an hereditary Peer for some weeks, does that mean we could delay it for some years, or indeed indefinitely? If so, ought we not to do so?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

I think the noble Lord is clear about what we are doing. We are making a change to provide for a logistical matter so that the by-election can be held when the House returns in the autumn.

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Bill and the debate. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, whose report has undoubtedly stood the test of time. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for bringing a version of his Bill back at the sixth time of asking. Given that I stood at the Dispatch Box opposite at least a couple of times, when I led a rather less than enthusiastic response to his earlier efforts, I should put that right today by saying that the Opposition support the noble Lord’s Bill without hesitation.

I pay tribute also to my noble friend Lord Grenfell, who is a wonderful colleague, an outstanding parliamentarian and a superb internationalist. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that there should be an appropriate ceremony for departing Members of your Lordships’ House. As my noble friend Lord Grocott said, could there be any more magnificent way of leaving your Lordships’ House than the contribution made by my noble friend this morning?

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, who chaired the working party that brought proposals short of legislation for encouraging the retirement of noble Lords. At a stroke, he has increased our success rate by 33?%—from three to four. Nonetheless, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was unduly modest about his Bill in permitting resignations and dealing with convicted offenders. Rather, I see it as a critical foundation for further reform.

The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, asked whether the Labour Party has retreated from its belief in substantive reform. The answer is no—but that should not be at the expense of sensible, interim, incremental reform. As ever, my noble friend Lord Grocott spoke with great wisdom. When I was appointed to your Lordships’ House in 1997, I confidently told my wife that I would be here for no more than three or four years, because by then we would have an elected second Chamber. I have dabbled enough in Lords reform since to know that forecasting when substantive reform of your Lordships’ House will be achieved is a mug’s game. That is why I have come round to the view that we should support small steps taking place on a frequent basis. That would not interfere with or prohibit substantive change if that were to be proposed in due course.

Because I believe that incremental change has much to commend it, I would also commend the report of the working group of Labour Peers, which was chaired by my noble friends Lord Grenfell and Lady Taylor. The report is published today and is a very valuable contribution to the debate. It makes wide-ranging recommendations for a reduction in the numbers of noble Lords to 450 over time and retirement through both age and a minimum attendance record. It deserves to be widely discussed. It has to be seen in contrast to the Government’s apparent determination to increase the size of your Lordships’ House to a really ludicrous extent.

We are privileged that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, will be winding up for the Government. I would like him to confirm that another list is imminent and that, indeed, the coalition’s political majority will grow ever larger.

Noble Lords will know that the scale of government defeats in this Parliament is much less than in the previous Parliament. Does the noble Lord, Lord Hill, agree that this House is nothing unless it is a revising Chamber? Does he also agree that the major encouragement to the House in its role as a revising Chamber is the prospect of the Government being defeated? If the Government do not fear defeat, they are less likely to make the kind of concessions that your Lordships look for. As my noble friend Lord Howarth said, the House of Lords is at its best when a Minister has to win the argument.

I find it rather ironic that the contrast with the Government’s desire further to increase the size of the House is that actually we are going to sit for less and less time during the year. Where will it end? Will there be 1,000 Members, perhaps, sitting for less than half a year? The Leader of the House should come clean on that.

On the point that Meg Russell makes and the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, I understand the point that is being raised. However, I do not share the concern that the House of Lords might become a training ground for aspirant MPs; if only. The noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, put that very well indeed. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, I am certainly not aware of any intention by the Opposition to use your Lordships’ House in that way. I echo my noble friend Lord Haskel’s words of appreciation of Meg Russell and the Constitution Unit. We may disagree with her on this point, but no one can underestimate the extraordinarily valuable work that she and the Constitution Unit have done over the years: long may that continue.

I also thought that my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford had a very interesting point to make with his concerns about the potential ill-use of Clause 3 in the circumstances that he raised. He does not seek to amend the Bill, but at some future point the issues he raised ought to be further discussed.

There is nothing more to say. On this side of the House we welcome the Bill and wish it a very speedy passage.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may seek clarification. I referred in my remarks to the report from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. That has apparently been approved by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the shadow Justice Secretary, Mr Sadiq Khan, so presumably it is jolly far down the way of becoming Labour Party policy. Can he also comment on whether the account of those proposals in the paper today is accurate?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the account was in the Daily Telegraph, so noble Lords will have to make their own judgment as to how accurate they think the Daily Telegraph is. As my noble friend Lord Grenfell has already made clear, this is a report by Labour Peers. It received a great deal of support at the meeting of Labour Peers on Wednesday. It is a contribution to the debate. I speak as deputy leader of our party in the House of Lords and I very much welcome the report and the recommendations that it makes. I believe that they are very sensible. They provide a solution to the interim problems that we face. In my view, they do not conflict with more substantive reform, when that comes.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard, it is the sixth time that my noble friend Lord Steel has launched a Bill on House of Lords reform upon the waters. On previous occasions the winds have blown and the seas have been stormy; various pieces of ballast have had to be thrown overboard. Finally, we have the chance today to help my noble friend steer his Bill safely to harbour. The clear mood of this House is that we want to do so. We are all grateful to him for his perseverance. This time last year a very similar Bill fell in the other place. Having spoken to my noble friend after that, I am pretty sure that he was ready to throw in the towel.

One year on, the Government’s position on the need for more fundamental House of Lords reform has not changed; that is, in support of a largely elected House. I was not altogether clear from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, whether he was beginning a stately retreat from the opposition party’s position on the need for a reformed House. But we will see that in the fullness of time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I cannot resist the temptation. I have made it absolutely clear that we are committed to substantive reform, but that should not be at the expense of sensible, moderate change, which is why we support the Bill.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

We will see what happens in due course. However, I think that a number of the proposals sketched out in the Daily Telegraph, to which noble Lords have alluded, would not constitute in most people’s minds moderate reforms of the sort proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel, which, after much difficulty, we can now support. I think we are agreed that his proposals are modest and consensual. Therefore, the only logical conclusion from what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has said is that, should the party opposite gain office, it would bring forward a stream of legislation on House of Lords reform. That legislation would, first, seek to limit the size of the House, then propose a retirement scheme, before moving in short order to propose an elected House. We can all look forward to the possibility of a constant stream of constitutional reform from the party opposite.

However, so far as this Bill is concerned, which is what we are here to talk about today, I am extremely glad that the Government’s position on these provisions has changed and that I can support the Bill. I thank my noble friend and especially Mr Dan Byles, as we all have, who have helped us to get to this point. I also thank Mr Dan Byles for standing through our debate this morning.

As we have heard, this is a modest Bill, perhaps more modest than those on both wings of the debate might like. Nevertheless, it is a sensible Bill. I would like to say a few words about the three main provisions covering criminal convictions, non-attendance and retirement. The first provides for the expulsion from the House of Members convicted of a serious criminal offence and jailed for more than a year. This will not cover many Members, I hope, but it closes a loophole and is also of a piece with other steps that I have been keen to take, which help to reinforce our commitment to the highest possible standards, and our determination to police ourselves effectively. I think that speaks to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather.

These steps have already included tightening up the Code of Conduct with the introduction of a new sanction which would enable the House to deny access to financial support and facilities to those whose behaviour falls below the standards we demand. I am extremely proud of the work of this House and the behaviour of noble Lords, but I am clear that we need to have a range of measures at our disposal so that we can take action against those who fall short. I shall continue to explore in the Privileges Committee, among other places, all options short of legislation which will help in this task. I agree with those who have said that the reputation of the many needs to be defended against the behaviour of the few. In that context, the measure in the Bill on criminal convictions is a welcome addition to the measures we have in our armoury.

The Bill’s second provision deals with Peers who do not attend the House. Of course, membership of our House is not full time, and nor should it be. One of our strengths is that Peers can bring up-to-date experience to bear from other walks of life. However, we support the intention of the Bill that Peers who never attend and have not sought leave of absence from this House should be permanently excluded.

The third provision concerns retirement. Under the Bill, retirement will be legally binding and irreversible. This seems to me a sensible step forward from the current voluntary scheme, of which the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is to be only the fourth, and, I suspect, the last Member to take advantage. The warmth of the tributes we have heard today are the surest and most eloquent sign of the highest regard in which the noble Lord has been held throughout his 18 years in our House. I cannot add to and improve on what has been said. However, the noble Lord hinted that he might pick up his pen yet again and add to the list of his novels, which some noble Lords may have read—I think that one is entitled Margot and another The Gazelle and which I am sure are available through Amazon at the same price as my own book, which is 1p. However, you do have to pay for postage. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will clearly be sorely missed. It is impossible to mistake the genuine affection in all the comments made about him today.

If the Bill is passed, the next question is how we can encourage more noble Lords to take advantage of the retirement scheme. I should say straightaway that, as noble Lords know, I do not believe that any kind of financial incentive would be justifiable. As I have said before, I know that the group leaders and the Convenor strongly support this view. However, as many noble Lords have said in the course of our debate, we could do more to mark the permanent retirement of a Peer. We have heard several proposals this morning, including the introduction of a retirement ceremony in the Chamber, the farewell speech suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, tributes and various other suggestions. The Bill rightly leaves these matters for the House to decide. However, I strongly encourage noble Lords to let me have suggestions which we can look at in more detail. Then, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments and in consultation with the Lord Speaker, we could see what range of measures could be considered.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the absence of a cooling-off period in the Bill. I probably do not need to add too much to what has been said, not least most recently by my noble friend Lord Wakeham. I think we are all clear that we do not expect this to be a practical problem. Our own Constitution Committee was very clear on that point and concluded that the Bill raised,

“no problems of constitutional concern”.

We do not accept that, without a mandatory minimum interval, this House would become a training ground for MPs. I do not believe that party leaders would be tempted by such a scheme, but, even more so, it seems to me unlikely that a Peer would want to resign from this place when the Bill makes it absolutely clear that they would never be able to come back, so it could not be a two-way journey between the two Houses. That said, I understand the concerns raised about it. Therefore, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I put on the record that, were that to become a problem in the future, we would want to review the situation. There is always an option to legislate to sort it out, should that be necessary.

My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral raised the question of a fund for Peers who were no longer able to attend the House and who fell into hardship. There is absolutely nothing to stop noble Lords contributing to a pot of money for that purpose. I would not support taxpayers’ money being used for that on the same basis that I would not support it being used for some other kind of financial incentive. As regards where that idea has got to, my understanding is that as the fund could not be a charity, because the only beneficiaries would be Members of this House and because of other practical issues, the idea has slightly run into the sand. However, I would be very happy to discuss that further with my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, as I always am, if he would like to do so.

At the outset, my noble friend Lord Steel asked me to set out what the next practical steps would be in terms of setting up a scheme, if we pass the Bill, as I believe, and hope, that we will. There does not need to be a scheme as such; we would just need to take a number of relatively small practical steps of a housekeeping nature. For instance, in terms of retirement, we would need to consider abolishing the existing voluntary scheme in order to avoid any confusion. That is something we would take through the Procedure Committee. If we needed to bring in a procedure to allow incapacitated Peers to take retirement, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards the question around the retirement ceremony or other formal ways of marking the occasion, once we have worked up ideas, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards access to rights or privileges in the House—for example, being able to sit on the Steps of the Throne and the use of dining facilities—that would be a matter for the House Committee. However, I obviously undertake to discuss that with my noble friend Lord Steel to make sure that he knows the way in which we are taking it forward, and, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments, make sure that those things are done as speedily as is necessary once the Bill receives Royal Assent.

In a spirit of pragmatism, of which we have heard a lot this morning, I am delighted to support the Bill. I speak for the Government and, I believe, the whole House in saying that we should seize the opportunity presented to us today and help my noble friend Lord Steel and his Bill finally reach dry land.

Parliamentary Privilege

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, for opening the debate and for his chairmanship of the Select Committee. Indeed, as the Select Committee says, parliamentary privilege is one of the special characteristics of our democracy that is crucial but often misunderstood. The Select Committee has gone a very long way towards clearing up many of those misunderstandings and has provided much-needed clarity about the freedoms and protections that each House needs to function effectively. As such, they are an essential bulwark of our democracy—hence the importance of the work of the Select Committee, which I think has been endorsed by every noble Lord who has spoken in this debate.

As the noble Lord said, parliamentary privilege very much came to public attention in the wake of the 2009 expenses scandal, when three former MPs and one Member of your Lordships’ House accused of false accounting over their expenses sought to argue that they ought not to be prosecuted because of parliamentary privilege. As we have heard, the matter was dealt with by the courts in, I suggest, a most sensible way.

I agree that, in the light of that judgment, the Joint Committee’s central conclusion is that,

“the case has not been made for a comprehensive codification of parliamentary privilege”.

I also agree that legislation should be considered only when it is shown to be absolutely necessary. I agree with the Joint Committee’s rejection of the Government’s original proposals in relation to Article 9, and I am glad that the committee has taken such a firm view on that.

My noble friend Lady Healy and the noble Lord, Lord Bew, spoke eloquently of the challenges of media reporting in the current age and of the need for those who are reporting to respond at speed. The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, referred to the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, relating to media reporting in Parliament. Given that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has not been able to make progress in the current Session and given all the problems that we know Private Member’s Bills have in getting through the other place, as the noble Lord, Lord Hill, the Leader of the House, will be responding, I take the opportunity to ask whether the Government will offer time for that Bill to go through the other place.

My noble friend Lord Davies made the very important point that we are being sent away for what one might call obscenely long recess dates at Easter; there are rumours about Whitsun; and we are not coming back from the Summer recess until mid-October. I do not believe that the Government cannot find parliamentary time to enable that to happen. I would welcome some optimism from the Leader of the House either that the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, if introduced in the other place by an honourable Member, will be given all speed or that the Government themselves will bring forward some legislation.

On Select Committees, I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Norton, for his interesting insight in relation to penal powers and the need for flexibility, which I strongly support. I agree with his conclusion on jury service, although I was struck by one of his comments. I think he said that officers were more valuable than Members to the Houses of Parliament. While we certainly have superb officers, I think that, as Members, we have some role to play.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

I said they were more valuable than any individual Member.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I was trying to work out the difference between the collective of officers versus the value of individual Members. It reminded me of the “Yes Minister” episode about the National Health Service that concluded that the NHS would run enormously smoothly if patients were not to come through hospitals.

The substantive point on which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, was very persuasive was the question of whether Members should be exempt from jury service. On this matter, the committee report recommends, in paragraph 253, that,

“the Government should bring forward legislation providing that Members of either House should be among those who have a right to be excused from jury service”.

I very much agree with the noble and learned Lord. Many of the previous exemptions have gone and I am sure it is right that all parts of society should expect to be called for jury service, including Members of your Lordships’ House and the other place. On this matter, I hope that we will not move to accept the committee’s report.

With regard to the Motion of the Leader of the House, it seems to be an eminently sensible approach, although I note that in paragraphs 37 to 39 of the committee report, some doubt is placed on the benefit of resolutions passed by both Houses. I ask the Leader: what is the effect of such a resolution? Is it simply a plea to individual departments to make sure, in drafting legislation, that they abide by the resolution, or does it have rather more strength? If the noble Lord could provide some reassurance on that, it would be helpful.

Overall, it seems to me that we are coming to a very satisfactory conclusion. The Select Committee’s report is very welcome. It has been very well written and argued. Apart from one or two areas about which I have doubts, I have no doubt that it has done a great service to your Lordships’ House, to parliamentary privilege and to the way that Parliament works in general.