Business of the House

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham]

I do not know how to respond to that. I know my noble friend’s position on this matter. He has stated it time and again. He is not going to change, so I do not think it is worth engaging with him in this way—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister’s decision to prorogue Parliament: was that not a guillotine?

[Lord Framlingham]

No, it is called a Prorogation. It is a long word. I am not giving way until I have explained to the noble Lord and answered his earlier query.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Earl accept that the unwritten constitution that we have depends on Prime Ministers actually doing the right thing? Given the current Prime Minister, has the time not come for us to have a written constitution?

[Earl Howe]

The answer to that question is not in my brief—but no doubt the noble Lord, with his ingenuity, can produce some very interesting proposals in that direction.

European Council

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 11th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can assure the noble Lord that the UK and EU agreed at the last Council to consider a joint work stream to develop alternative arrangements, and President Juncker has agreed that the EU will give priority to this work. We will be setting up domestic structures in the UK to support this work so that we can take advice from external experts involved in customs processes around the world as well as colleagues across Parliament. All this work will be supported by Civil Service resource, as well as funding, to promote and pilot proposals which can then form part of these alternative arrangements —there is an ongoing work stream looking at this area.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the gridlock in the Commons to which the Minister referred should not be surprising, because it reflects a division that is patently clear in the country as a whole. Yet in no Statement since her right honourable friend the Prime Minister took office has she sent any message at all to the more than 16 million people who voted to remain. I read this word “compromise” in a spirit of compromise; does she not have to talk to the nation and draw it together? This Statement is once again spoken only to her own MPs and to those who voted to leave.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister is certainly aware of the need to bring the country together; the noble Lord may recall that that has been said repeatedly from the Dispatch Box and in Statements. That is why we are working so hard to achieve a deal that delivers for those who want to remain in a close relationship with the EU and those who voted to leave. That is why we are working so hard to leave the EU with an orderly Brexit and to ensure that our future relationship is strong. That is why we have made an offer to EU citizens—we have made it clear we want them to stay. We are trying to work in the interests of everyone in this country. That is what we are focused on and want to deliver. It is why we believe a deal is exactly the right way to leave the EU.

Business of the House

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am happy to give way to my noble friend if he wishes to finish his point, but I think he made it pretty clearly. The noble Baroness suggests that this has all got to be done today. Why? We could sit tomorrow or we could continue on Monday. There is no reason at all why it should all be done today.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I really want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.

[Lord True (Con)]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

No, I am making an intervention. It is not for me to give way to the noble Lord, much though I am sure we will be happy to hear from him in due course. The point I want to make to the noble Lord is that this House has dealt with emergency legislation in one day. I refer him to the Human Reproductive Cloning Bill, which I took through this House on 26 November 2001, with a Second Reading and Committee in one day. It was to stop a scientist from another country who was coming to the UK to carry out human cloning, and legislation was needed urgently. We took it in one day. This legislation is needed urgently because we do not have a functioning Executive, we have the most critical situation this country has faced in decades and the Commons has had to do what it did. That is why it is urgent. Surely the noble Lord can see that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am surprised that the noble Countess did not intervene, given the length of that intervention from the noble Lord. He will recall that the Bill that he referred to was agreed by the usual channels, which is the normal way in which we proceed. I realise that because I was in the House of Commons I may have got used to its procedures, but I have been used to Bills being presented with the name of the sponsor. There is no sponsor on this Bill. The noble Baroness said that it was being presented for its First Reading, but the Bill appears to be an orphan. Who is the sponsor for this Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes]

I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would be looking forward to hearing from me. The amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper gives reasons for not supporting the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, which are as follows:

“that the Prime Minister has already indicated her intention to ask for a delay”;

and that this House “considers it unnecessary”—as well as “undesirable and unprecedented”—“to apply exceptional procedures”. I shall speak to those elements in a moment.

I wish that the House had committed this Motion to be debated in Committee because we could have had a more natural, free-flowing discussion about some of the issues raised so far—all of which have been brought to an end by the closure Motion, which I believe is undesirable. However, the House chose not to go that way; that leaves a number of unanswered questions, which we still need to explore, about exactly how the procedures will work today. I am quite unclear about how we proceed between Second Reading and Committee, given that there has to be an interval to allow for amendments to be processed and made available to noble Lords, and for noble Lords to consider them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, going back to the Bill that I took through in a day, clearly, gaps were put in. There was a gap of an hour or so between Second Reading and Committee to allow people to draft amendments and have them printed. The same could happen between that stage and Report. It is perfectly proper and easy to make this work in one day.

[Baroness Noakes]

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, makes a very good point but the Bill he refers to was undertaken with the full co-operation of the usual channels; because they co-operate, they set out how those things will work. That has not happened in this case, as I understand it, and therefore this House is quite unaware of what will happen when we get to the end of Second Reading.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the temptation to live past glories is ever-present in your Lordships’ House but the point is that the Bill I am talking about had its contentious points: I remember that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who is not here in his place, and Baroness Blatch, who I think noble Lords opposite will recall with a great deal of respect, were very much opposed to it. Perhaps the noble Baroness was there when we did it; the point I am making is that we were not unanimous on that Bill.

[Baroness Noakes]

The point remains that the Bill was processed with the full agreement of the usual channels. The fact that it was not supported by all Members of the House is irrelevant. The usual channels arrange for the orderly business in this place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Robathan]

Thank you; I accept that. First, we are here to revise legislation. Although we do not get it perfectly right, we do it quite well—much better than the other place, in which I sat for 23 years. That is to the credit of the House of Lords. The second reason we are here is to act as a check—it can only be a minor one—on the tyranny of the elected House. We should be very concerned about this being pushed through the way it is. We legislate in haste; we will repent at leisure.

Other noble Lords—I am looking at two or three on the Benches opposite—were here for the Dangerous Dogs Act. After it was passed, in haste, everybody said that it was a terrible mistake because it was not properly thought through, or examined by Parliament, Select Committees or the clerks. It was not properly examined at all, and what we are doing here is the same. I am not even talking specifically about the Bill that will come up later. I am talking about the whole process by which we pass legislation. The way this procedure has been brought forward is an abuse of Parliament.

The debate has been closed down by one Liberal Democrat, one Labour Peer and at least two Cross-Benchers. Be careful what you wish for because, guess what, if this is to be accepted practice, it will be used against every party, every person on their feet, and every person who wants to raise an issue, by the Government, by the Opposition and by whomsoever. I appeal to noble Lords: of course we all have strong feelings about this but let us remember that the procedures of this House are here for a purpose. They are not perfect, and here I take issue with my noble friend Lord Ridley who said that he did not accept that they were arcane. Actually, some of them are, but, without a dictionary, I do not know if “arcane” is necessarily that appalling.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord has talked a lot about the procedures of this House. However, going back over many years, the House does know when a filibuster is going on and takes action to stop it. The noble Lord talks about the tyranny of the other place. It is usually tyranny of Governments that we talk about. The reason the Commons has had to do this is that, as he said, we have a shambolic Government who have completely lost control of the most important issue that this nation has faced for many decades. The Commons has had to take control. We should surely at least respect that by giving the Bill an opportunity to have a Second Reading. The noble Lord talks about the role of this House. The role of this House is not to filibuster.

[Lord Robathan]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I agree: it should not be about filibustering. However, I and a great many other people believe we are acting as a check on the wrong procedure down the other end. The noble Lord was here in January 2011. I wonder whether he took part in the filibuster I looked up, which tried to stop the referendum on parliamentary voting. Did he not? Perhaps he was on the Government Benches at the time? No, he would not have been. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, formerly Deputy Prime Minister, who is not in his place, was apparently very active in it. So I am afraid that filibusters—as the noble Lord suggests this might be—are not unique to any particular party. We should go by constitutional precedent, proper convention—

Business of the House

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for what she has said and, if I may, I will respond to that in my opening remarks, rather than at the end. For the avoidance of doubt, I must make it clear that I do not have any intention of using this amendment to either extend or not extend our stay in the European Union. Noble Lords who have followed our debates know my view. I deplore the fact that we are not leaving on Friday, but I recognise the circumstances that the Leader of the House has referred to; I personally will not make, recommend or participate in any attempt to talk out that statutory instrument, and I know of no proposal to do so. Therefore, any such suspicion is completely unfounded and it is no pretext for the Executive to evade the normal procedures of Parliament on these highly significant regulations that we will debate tomorrow.

Having set that aside, perhaps I may get on to the fundamental point that I want to make. I speak as someone who spent 13 years in the usual channels of this House and who has been a Member in the nine years that have followed. I have come to understand that there is no greater protection of this House, or indeed of Parliament as a whole, than the freedoms that your Lordships enjoy in procedure and the duties that are laid on the Executive. It is the flexible freedom that we have, and the demands that we are able to make of the Executive, that have enabled this House to become the undoubted master of scrutiny.

In these troubling constitutional times I submit that, wherever we stand, it is more important than ever that the House should protect its working procedures. If the Executive is incoherent and not consulting Parliament soon enough—or not consulting it enough—and if the other place now collectively purports to act as the Executive, then who provides the scrutiny if not this House and its committees?

The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments is not a committee of this House but of both Houses. It exists to protect both Houses against the inappropriate exercise of powers by the Executive. We have in our Standing Orders something the other House does not: a requirement that a report is laid before Parliament by that committee before an important matter is debated. This Standing Order is a protection not only for this House but for the other.

The Joint Committee does a remarkable job. Over the last 18 months it has almost invariably met weekly on Wednesdays; we have heard my noble friend the Minister confirm that it will be meeting again tomorrow—I imagine at 3.45 pm, as always. Since November 2017, it has produced 56 reports, drawing 163 statutory instruments to your Lordships’ attention. Anyone who follows its work knows its importance.

I will not concern myself with the merits of the statutory instruments that might—and will—be considered by the Joint Committee. Neither will I consider this particular statutory instrument, which is not before us today. What is before us is an exceptional Motion from the Executive to set aside our Standing Orders and potentially defeat the need for a report on this very important SI by your Lordships’ Joint Committee before we debate this momentous matter.

In the Explanatory Memorandum just one reason is given. Paragraph 3.1 says that,

“there will be insufficient time for the Committee to report on this instrument in the normal manner”.

I ask your Lordships to hold that phrase, “in the normal manner”, in mind. The Leader of the House says that we have to vacate Standing Order 72. I will come back to the question of time, but let me draw your Lordships’ attention to the exceptional nature of the Leader’s Motion before us: to bypass the requirement for a report from this key parliamentary committee for both Houses. The clerks have told me—I am grateful for their advice—that there have been four such Motions this century—just four. One of those was last October when the Joint Committee was not even in existence.

This underlines the exceptional nature of a Motion to set aside our Standing Orders requiring the Joint Committee report to be laid before the statutory instrument is moved. I do not believe that this vacation of the duty of the Joint Committee to report can be justified, particularly as my noble friend the Minister has confirmed that the Joint Committee is meeting tomorrow to consider the matter. I do not accept the plea that there was no time. My noble friend the Minister has told us that the Joint Committee was informed last Friday. Its guidelines say that it is normal for the Joint Committee to take five working days to consider a matter, but equally the guidelines make provisions for it be done more expeditiously. I have no doubt—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am having some difficulty in following the noble Lord’s line of argument. I would have thought that his remarks would be better directed at the Prime Minister. After all, it is she who has prevaricated about letting the House of Commons make the decision in this regard and then twice ignored its views. With the greatest respect to him, given the dire situation that we are in, what alternative do we have but to take this SI as soon as possible?

[Lord True]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a political point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

I am grateful for the intervention from my noble friend. However, the position in our Standing Orders and constitutionally is that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments—a Joint Committee of both Houses, not just your Lordships’ House—considers important affirmative instruments and presents a report. My noble friend’s committee’s report will be immensely valuable but it cannot have the authority of a Joint Committee, which will have authority and distinction in both Houses.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords—

[Lord True]

I have given way to the noble Lord before.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I want to say something about the intervention we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. He is chairman of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee of your Lordships’ House, which has to be distinguished from the JCSI. I thought it would be helpful to have that acknowledged.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I first draw attention to my interests as set out in the register, in particular as president of the British Insurance Brokers’ Association. The first day of this debate brought much heat but also much light. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, made the compelling observation that, for all of us who accept the result of the referendum, there are now just two options—this withdrawal agreement and the political declaration or else a hard or no-deal Brexit. I know which one of those I prefer.

The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury spoke movingly of reconciliation, and that is a theme I will develop briefly in my few words this morning. His sentiments were echoed by the authentic voice of Wales in the closing contribution yesterday evening. My noble friend Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach ended his speech with a call for us to “lay aside prejudices” and pray for,

“wisdom greater than our own”,—[Official Report, 5/12/18; col. 1108.]

and for “humility”.

My noble friend’s eloquent call for humility has a strong resonance with me—and not only because I was born in Wales. In a time of strife, there is great wisdom in humility, whereas dogmatic and entrenched positions serve our nation poorly. Perhaps I may say—if I am allowed to in view of the noble Lord who will follow me in this debate, because I know that it will appeal to him in particular—that the Labour Party on this issue needs to show some humility as well. Let us try to put party politics aside in the national interest. These are serious matters and the nation may never forgive them if they continue to try to play every twist and turn of this drama for party advantage.

It has taken the intervention of a distinguished former Secretary to the Cabinet to strip the Labour amendment to the government Motion of its unhelpfully partisan content and tone, transforming it into something respectable. Noble Lords will know that I personally believe that the Prime Minister is to be congratulated as she has set about the testing task of negotiating Brexit. Of course it was never a realistic hope that the outcome would or could please everyone. No one could achieve that. The responsibility that falls to her is to begin rebuilding—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Perhaps I may make a brief intervention. I have great respect for the noble Lord, but when did the Prime Minister make any attempt to bring other parties with her to achieve an outcome that had some hope of reconciliation and consensus? She never did.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

The Prime Minister did that throughout the process. We will differ, but I hope that the noble Lord will agree that the responsibility for the Prime Minister is now to begin rebuilding one nation, and encouraging the scars that have been left by a divisive referendum campaign to heal. The Prime Minister has proved herself to be the epitome of the conscientious and responsible, rational politician at a time of rampant fundamentalism. Surely a responsible Opposition would welcome and support that in the public interest.

Over the course of the past 45 years our economic and political life has become inextricably linked with the European Union. Brexit has been likened to trying to remove an egg from an omelette—and so it has proved. If anybody ever thought that this was going to be easy, they know better now. But we now have a genuine opportunity to rebuild and reunite our nation. Neither a hard Brexit nor a rash decision blithely to ignore the referendum result could possibly achieve that. Either of those extremes would once again set friend against friend, colleague against colleague and young against old. I believe that the agreement preserves our national reputation as a responsible country that wishes to work constructively with our neighbours rather than one that continues to entertain unrealistic post-imperial pretentions.

It is true that work remains to be done, for instance in ensuring that our financial services industry—in many ways the jewel in our crown—will continue to flourish in the post-Brexit world. I believe that the political declaration provides a framework for the future, and those who reject the agreement and the declaration are playing with fire. If this agreement fails, there can be no guarantees of another one in its place. We would almost certainly end up either with a no-deal Brexit and losing the political declaration, or with no Brexit at all. It must not be a question of who blinks first. We should not be blinking at all. Politics is always the art of the possible, and that is why we should now embrace the British tradition of sensible and reasonable compromise which has stood us in such good stead for centuries.

We should warmly welcome this agreement and the political declaration. If we want this nation to come back together, we need to lead by example. That means that not only those of us on the Government Benches but noble Lords all around this Chamber must now rise to that challenge.

School Curriculum: Creative Subjects

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Of course we want to ensure that there is cross-country collaboration, so that pupils in our schools get the opportunity to go abroad and that pupils from abroad can come over. That will remain important and the arts, music, PE and sport are obviously great ways in which young people from all different backgrounds can meet one another and come together.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I rather think it was Macbeth that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, had in mind. The noble Baroness has made some stirring remarks about the importance of the creative arts and linked them to the economy. But she has not answered the question: if they are so important, why are the number of people taking GCSE subjects going down? She used selective figures—I think that they were for arts and design—to say that there had been an increase between 2011 and 2013-14. However, that increase comes from a lower base. Throughout the creative arts and design subjects the numbers are going down and, given the crucial nature of creativity to the economy, surely we need to reverse that.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sure the noble Lord will agree that what is absolutely key for all young people is to have a solid grounding in the basic academic subjects of English and maths. That is something that this Government have been focusing on, and we make no apology for that. But as I said, we believe that children should have a high-quality creative education. We have put a lot of funding into encouraging programmes and, as I have said, we believe the new Progress 8 measure will help to raise the status of creative arts subjects.

House of Lords: Composition

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Government take seriously their responsibility to consult people about serious and important matters of policy, and that includes consulting Members of your Lordships’ House. I am sad to hear what the noble Lord said but this is usually something that we do very well indeed.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have the figures here. Can the noble Baroness confirm that we have almost as many Members whose main residence is overseas as we do Members who come from the east Midlands? Is it not time for a moratorium on the appointment of new Peers from London and the south-east so that we can rebalance the membership? Come to think of it, should we not have a moratorium on all appointments? Can she confirm that it is her and the Prime Minister’s intention to pack her Benches with yet more Conservative Peers in the next few weeks?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

New appointments are a matter for the Prime Minister and I am not going to speculate on that. However, this is more complex than just a question of where we come from and where we live. One interesting thing in the data from which the noble Lord is quoting is that there are more Labour Peers than Conservative Peers with London addresses. As an example, I live in London but am from Beeston, just outside Nottingham. Although I do not represent Beeston, I like to think that I bring some knowledge and experience of where I was born and brought up, and I hope that that adds to my contributions in this House.

Strathclyde Review

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. I warmly welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and, of course, my noble friend Lord Darling, to the House. I congratulate them both on excellent maiden speeches. Right at the start, at about 3.35 pm, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that this debate goes to the heart of the work of the Lords as a revising Chamber. Of course, that is true.

Interestingly, as we have developed during today, what has become clear is that, whatever view one has about the conventions, financial privilege and what happened in October, this debate is really about the role of Parliament and the fears that many Lords have expressed about the encroaching approach of the Executive seeking to gain more control over the legislature. That is why we have to be wary, at the very least, of giving up our veto on the strength of what, in the noble Lord’s report, are essentially vague possibilities that the Government will reduce their use of statutory instruments or even that the other place might take statutory instruments rather more seriously in the future.

We are, of course, highly indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for his report and for opening the debate. Clearly, he has a new role ahead as chairman of numerous public inquiries. But he will know that, like my noble friend Lord Grocott, we cannot accept his arguments. We did not break a convention; we did not challenge the primacy of the Commons; there is no constitutional crisis. In October we overwhelmingly declined to support a fatal Motion. Instead, we asked the Government to reconsider and bring forward changes. As the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, pointed out, the Government had many options for doing that, either through primary or secondary legislation. They chose not to do so. The Chancellor accepted the logic of the Lords position, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, pointed out. As my noble friend Lord Haughey said, there was no victory or defeat, common sense just prevailed.

My noble friend Lady Hollis remarked that it was not our vote on tax credits that strained the conventions, but the Government deploying a statutory instrument in the first place to introduce by the back door highly controversial measures affecting millions of people and, essentially, to avoid proper debate in the other place. My noble friend Lord Cunningham put it so well. The resulting fit of pique by the Government is not the basis on which to make far-reaching changes without a careful examination of the long-term consequences.

So we come to the detail of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. For me, the most important part of that report is the last paragraph, on page 23, concerning the appropriate use of statutory instruments as opposed to primary legislation. Many noble Lords expressed worries about the increased use of statutory instruments, in particular the growing use of what are now being called skeletal Bills, backed up by a host of statutory instruments including Henry VIII powers. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, made a most telling contribution. My noble friend Lord Williams spelled this out: 34 Acts since 2010 contained such Henry VIII powers. Let us be frank: the Government of which I was a member was also guilty of that.

In that paragraph, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that,

“in order to mitigate against excessive use of the new process”,

which he proposes under option 3, he believed that,

“it would be appropriate for the Government to take steps to ensure that Bills contain an appropriate level of detail and that too much is not left for implementation by statutory instrument”.

It is the most important point he makes in the report. The question I put to the Leader of the House is this: how is that to happen? What guarantees are there for this House were it to give up its veto on secondary legislation? I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, but in this case warm words are simply not enough.

We then come to the question of the role of the Commons in dealing with statutory instruments. It has been confirmed by many Members of your Lordships’ House who have come from the other place that the way the Commons deals with statutory instruments is frankly nothing short of disgraceful, with minimal interest, discussion and scrutiny. The Lords would be asked to take an awful lot of things on trust were it to accept the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. Will the noble Baroness tell us what guarantees we have that the House of Commons is seriously going to change its ways in dealing with statutory instruments?

I want also to ask her about the details of the noble Lord’s report, in particular his option 3. There have been a number of detailed questions and criticisms of some aspects of that recommendation. My noble friend Lady Hollis raised the importance of a set period of delay. Without such a set period, what on earth would make a Government take notice of anything the Lords said on such an instrument? There are other questions: how will the Executive engage with noble Peers on statutory instruments? How will the view of the Lords be conveyed effectively to the House of Commons? Will the resolution be preceded by debate on the Floor of the House of Commons? How much time would be allowed for it? Would it be more than the five minutes a day on average that currently occurs? Will the matter be subject to deferred Division in the Commons, as is the case with many statutory instruments now? Will statutory instruments continue to be started from both Houses, because it certainly has an impact on whether the House can ask the Commons to think again if the Commons has not thought about something in the first case? Will amendments be allowed? This is a very important question about amendments in relation to statutory instruments. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, made an excellent contribution and put forward many excellent ideas in relation to how we might take the scrutiny of statutory instruments forward.

In listening to the debate I sense that most noble Lords on all sides of the House are not opposed to a careful examination of how we might improve the way we scrutinise secondary legislation and of how the relationship between the two Houses might be more carefully effected in the future, alongside a review of what most appropriately constitutes primary legislation as opposed to secondary legislation. However, the House does not wish to give a blank cheque to the Executive or to proceed without fully understanding the long-term implications. It is here that we look to the Leader of the House. She is, of course, a government Minister and is Leader of the Conservative group of Peers in your Lordships’ House. However, as Leader, she has a wider responsibility to guard the House’s interest and to ensure that its role is cherished and enhanced.

Many noble Lords have quoted the Hansard Society paper that we received this morning, and a very good paper it is, too. However, it concluded:

“The complexity of the delegated legislation process, the lack of understanding amongst parliamentarians … all point to a system that is no longer fit for purpose”.

As noble Lords have said, the Hansard Society argues for an “independent expert inquiry” and certainly adds weight to the case for a constitutional convention. My noble friend Lord Darling made a persuasive case for that in describing the problems arising from a piecemeal approach to constitutional change.

We are not elected. We are the second Chamber. We accept without question the primacy of the other place. However, we are the only part of Parliament that takes secondary legislation scrutiny seriously. Therefore, in the light of our debate, I hope that the noble Baroness the Leader will tell us what she is now going to do. However rarely it is used, we currently have an unfettered right to veto secondary legislation. I believe that is a safeguard for both Parliament and the public. Does the Leader want to be the person to remove that right and hand yet more power to the Executive? I hope not. I certainly hope that she will listen very carefully to what noble Lords have said before she takes any such precipitous action.

Many noble Lords have suggested that we appoint a Joint Select Committee of both Houses to look at this issue in the round. The work of my noble friend Lord Cunningham is an excellent example of how that might be done. It would also enable us to embrace the very interesting point made by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, about the need to reflect and understand the views of Members of Parliament.

I say to the noble Baroness that this has been a rather remarkable debate. Different views have been expressed, but I think that there is an urge in the House to try to find sensible consensus on the way forward. She would find huge support on all sides of the House if she said tonight that she would agree to the appointment of such a Joint Select Committee of both Houses. Having heard this debate, I am convinced that is the right way forward.

House of Lords: Strathclyde Review

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the comments made by Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen on 3 November (HL Deb, col. 1516), how Lord Strathclyde and his review team will take account of the views of Members of the House of Lords.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde has written to the Members of both Houses inviting them to submit their views. A number of Peers from around the House have already made submissions to his review or shared their views with him in person. I have no doubt that he will consider carefully all representations from Members of this House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader for that reply. Can she assure me that, when the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has reported, there will be an opportunity for the House to debate the contents of the report before the Government come to any conclusions? Can she also say whether, in view of the 1994 resolution of this House that we have an unfettered right to vote on secondary legislation, which was confirmed by the Joint Select Committee on Conventions, if the noble Lord proposes reducing the powers of this House, she will ensure that a further Joint Select Committee of both Houses is established to consider the consequences both for this House and the other place?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly do not want to pre-empt my noble friend’s conclusions when he comes forward with his response to the Prime Minister, but it is worth me reminding the House that he is looking into the constitutional issues that were raised by the proceedings in this House in October. They were unprecedented; they did raise serious questions.