Pedicabs (London) Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, we are on to the third group and I will speak to Amendments 7 and 9 in my name. To some extent, Amendment 7 follows on from what the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, who is not in his place, said about consultation. It is important that we have confidence that TfL will consult whomever it considers appropriate when drawing up the pedicab regulations. I am particularly interested in people who cycle or walk and, maybe in the future, go on scooters. Amendment 7 suggests that TfL should consult the representatives of those whose interests it believes may “be affected” by the regulations, as well as anyone else—it is quite simple. I hope the Minister will be able to say that it would do that anyway and that he would like it to, or something like that.

I have reflected a lot with people on Amendment 9 and on what the point is of putting in objectives for these regulations. There was some interesting wording in a briefing on the King’s Speech a few weeks ago, which said that the regulations will

“pave the way for a sustainable pedicab industry that is safer for passengers, pedestrians, and other road users in London … making it fairer for passengers and taxpayers by enabling Transport for London … to introduce fare controls”.

I note that it mentions fare controls, not the level of fares. To some extent, the Minister responded, saying that the Government agree with all this.

However, I suggest to the Minister that the list in Amendment 9 is a useful summary of the balance that needs to be addressed between the different people who like, hate or do not very much mind pedicabs. It proposes looking at the environment, the safety of drivers and passengers, danger and disruption to the public, and the level of fares, which will affect how many people hire them. We heard some pretty horrific stories at Second Reading about high fares being charged, to foreign tourists in particular. The list also includes licensing, which, again, needs to be proportionate. I will ask the Minister about one thing I have not put in this amendment: is there any geographical limit to where these TfL-licensed pedicabs may go? Presumably, there is some limit around London, but it would be good to know exactly what it is and what might happen to riders who go outside it.

Can the Minister confirm that the objective of all this legislation is not to discourage people from using pedicabs, or to put them out of business, but to make them into a safe and balanced alternative to other means of transport, enjoyed by Londoners and visitors alike? I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have tabled a stand part notice in this group. First, I will support my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I particularly welcome his Amendment 9, which sets a sensible context in which TfL can take forward its work in pedicab regulation. In Amendment 7, he could have listed the organisations but chose to take a light touch, simply requiring that TfL looks carefully at the organisations that it consults and making sure that it covers the interests that he suggested. That seems eminently sensible and I hope that the Minister will feel able to accept it.

I have tabled my stand part notice for a reason that follows on from something that my noble friend said in his winding-up speech on the first group. I am still puzzled about why the legislation is so narrowly limited to pedicabs and not to e-bikes or e-scooters. I am also puzzled about why there are two transport Bills going through at the same time, and why we could not have had a rather more comprehensive Bill in which we could have been allowed wider input. Perhaps that is why we have two limited Bills—to prevent us having such input. It seems an extraordinarily bureaucratic way to deal with two very limited pieces of legislation.

Dockless e-bikes have had huge growth, unique to London. They are an unregulated market and pose significant traffic and pavement obstruction issues, with some health and safety concerns. There are similar issues with e-scooters. We now have an estimated 28,000 dockless e-bikes in London—up 180% from 2021. It is likely to increase still further in the next few years, which raises a number of issues. First, on-street parking of dockless e-bikes is unregulated, so they can be left anywhere. We have all seen the results of that, strewn around the streets: often, they have either fallen over or someone has thrown them over. They look unkempt and are accessibility and traffic obstruction issues. I understand that dockless e-bike operators are not subject to any procurement rules, so they do not have to adhere to minimum operational standards. I acknowledge that some bike operators have entered memoranda of understanding with specific boroughs, but they are not enforceable and can vary, so there can be inconsistency in crossing from one London borough to another.

Campaigners on disability issues have highlighted and alerted me to the challenges that an increase in e-scooter use may pose for pedestrians with disabilities. I think we have all experienced that. I refer the Committee to a paper published by Policy Exchange’s liveable London and crime and justice units, which has revealed a significant increase in the usage of public hire e-bikes and e-scooters, particularly around Westminster, making pavements impassable as a result of their regularly being abandoned by users at the end of their journey. Again, I think that many noble Lords will have experienced that.

E-scooters fall within the legal definition of a motor vehicle. That means that it is normally illegal to use them on public roads unless they comply with the legal requirements to do so, or are rented as part of an official trial. Concerns have also been raised that the batteries in e-scooters have been linked to fires. In 2021, London Fire Brigade was called to 130 fires related to lithium batteries, 28 of which have been directly linked to e-scooters.

The Government published an evaluation of the scooter trials in December 2022. According to the Library’s briefing, this was followed up in May 2023 with a question from the House of Commons Transport Committee, which was answered by Jesse Norman from the Minister’s department. He said that the Government were

“considering the fact that, since they were initially introduced, trials had shown that e-scooters primarily displaced active travel rather than travel in private vehicles”.

He also acknowledged the safety concerns around their use and

“said that the government planned to lay regulations … under existing rules rather than pass primary legislation. He said the government would also consider legislation on ‘light electric vehicles’. In July 2023 the government said it intended to introduce legislation on micromobility vehicles, which would encompass e-scooters, ‘when parliamentary time allows’”.

Well, we have all used that phrase before. I gently suggest to the Minister that, if his department has the energy to take two Bills through at the same time, parliamentary time would definitely have allowed it to bring provisions in relation to e-scooters and dockless e-bikes.

Getting some regulation here has huge support from the boroughs, TfL and the GLA. Indeed, one of the providers of dockless e-bikes in London, Dott, is also calling for regulation for dockless bikes. The case is overwhelming. I hope that the Minister might be a bit sympathetic and at least give us some indication of when the Government will bring this to fruition.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, first, I apologise for not being present at Second Reading.

I have added my name to Amendment 16, which is about safeguarding. It follows what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said at the beginning about how we want to encourage people to use pedicabs but also to ensure that they are safe. We must be aware that many vulnerable people, such as young children or young women, use pedicabs. This amendment says that the operator should have an enclosed Disclosure and Barring Service certification, formerly known as a CRB. There are three types of DBSs: basic, standard and enhanced. This amendment suggests enhanced. It is not expensive—it costs £20 and the renewal cost is £4—but it shows quite clearly to anybody who is an operator of these vehicles that the person who is driving or cycling one of them has no criminal convictions for rape, murder, sexual assault, cruelty to persons aged under 16, sexual intercourse with somebody aged under 16 or the possession or distribution of inappropriate images of children. If we want to ensure that pedicabs are safe, this requirement should happen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, as the Committee knows, I am supportive of this Bill because it brings in provision for the regulation of pedicabs. I will leave it to my noble friend the Minister to respond on why it is not possible to include e-scooters and e-bikes; I guess that it is probably because the Bill is called the Pedicabs (London) Bill and the Government would not be able to cover them in it. However, I share a lot of the concerns raised about e-scooters and e-bikes. Although I did not say anything in support of those who made these points at Second Reading, that was probably because this issue started getting raised after I spoke. I am pleased that we have pedicabs legislation, which has always been my focus.

I want to raise e-scooters with my noble friend. Because there has been no legislation, as has been pointed out, I am really alarmed that the Government are extending their trial of rental e-scooters for a further two years, to May 2026. What really concerns me about this—I have raised it on several occasions in different contexts and debates—is that, at the moment, it is illegal for private e-scooters to be on our roads outside those rental schemes. The longer this trial goes on, the more the take-up increases. I do not think I have ever seen anyone tackled. As I have said before in this Room, I have even witnessed somebody come on to the Parliamentary Estate on an e-scooter, past the policemen on the gate, and not be challenged at all. When I asked a police officer on the gate, “Why haven’t you stopped that person riding a vehicle that’s not permitted on the road?”, they shrugged their shoulders at me.

If this is to continue, something has to be done about enforcement around these vehicles. They cause so much distress to people, as has been described, and are dangerous because of the batteries used. It is not good enough for a lack of parliamentary time to be raised as an excuse when the use of them, in a legal fashion, is growing all the time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, by keeping on extending the trials, the Government are in effect implicitly making e-scooters legal because it will be impossible for them at some point to say, “We’re going to stop the trials. This is now an illegal activity”. In essence, it is a nod and a wink to say that it is okay to run them. They have done the evaluation so why do they need more trials? It is difficult to see how this is going to come to a satisfactory ending.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

I agree. Their legal use is being made possible by stealth, basically. That is why people continue to use them with impunity. They know—or, presumably, they assume—that nobody will bother to challenge them in the first place.

Birmingham Highways Infrastructure Private Finance Initiative

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness that it is not ideal—I said that earlier. As I said, this has been bogged down with issues between the contractor and Birmingham City Council. The Government have worked to come up with a solution. That will be announced imminently and, hopefully, we will be able to get under way with a new contract.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, with respect, where it has been bogged down is in His Majesty’s Treasury, and it should be a Treasury Minister before us today answering why it is putting in such delay. Does “imminently” mean by the end of November? The Minister will be aware that unless a decision is made by the end of November, the whole thing falls down and the city council is immediately liable for the costs of those who tendered and then the re-tendering process. Can he say that there will be a decision within three days?

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I can say that “imminently” is as meant in the English dictionary, which means probably about to happen.

Pedicabs (London) Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Minister to his new position, which I hope he very much enjoys. I also welcome my noble friend Lord Liddle to his position on the Front Bench. He may not be pleased that I said so, but it is remarkable that, 50 years ago, we stood on a platform for election to Oxford City Council on the basis of implementing a balanced transport policy which essentially took cars out of the Oxford city centre at great advantage to the environment—we were rather ahead of our time. I am not sure whether the Bill will have quite the same impact, but it is none the less welcome—as was the Minister’s succinct introduction, which we all very much enjoyed.

It is wonderful to see the Benches opposite so keen on regulation, I must say, but I am going to warn the House against overregulation. It is important that, in seeking to bring order to a pretty awful situation at the moment, we do not regulate pedicabs out of existence. There is a balance to be drawn. They are popular with many tourists; on the other hand, the Heart of London Business Alliance, which represents 600 businesses in central London, wishes to support this legislation. Its argument is that pedicabs put other people off coming to central London because of the aggression of some drivers. One must respect that.

I will raise five points with the Minister. First, I, too, would like to know why these provisions are not being extended to e-bikes. The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, made a very powerful case. Obviously, we will explore that in Committee. At the very least, the Minister will find himself under pressure to respond with some statement of the government intent regarding e-bikes. As I understand it, Westminster City Council reckons that there are up to 2,000 dockless e-bikes for hire in the City of Westminster. It says that the problem of no regulations around their hire, operation or parking for disabled people leads to a situation where people with prams and other pedestrians can be forced to walk in the road or dodge an obstacle course. We need to hear what support will be given to Westminster and other local authorities to deal with some of those issues.

The second issue is enforcement. I agree with noble Lords on this. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, slightly worried me—I am a cyclist and, as he will know, this House is not very sympathetic to cyclists—but I agree with him about the behaviour of some cyclists. It strikes me that there is a real issue of enforcement. It is a good principle that, if you are not certain about whether enforcement can take place, you should be very wary of passing legislation. That used to be Conservative thinking as well, did it not? Something is really rather odd here.

The third issue is proportionate regulation. Cycling UK thinks that you do not see pedicabs in other local authority areas because they tend to be regulated as hackney carriages. In essence, it is impossible to have a viable business operating under that situation. We do not have a statement from Transport for London about how it will operate these provisions. One way or another, we need to have some sort of assurance that its aim is not to regulate pedicabs out of business completely. Clause 1 leaves entirely to the discretion of Transport for London what regulations it draws up and who it can consult on them. I am not sure that is absolutely right. Again, we should explore this in Committee.

My final point concerns the abuse of cycle lanes by pedicabs. They can be an absolute menace and nightmare. Can the Minister assure me that there is an ability to ensure that pedicabs are not allowed to use cycle lanes?

HS2 Ltd: Costs

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government always pay attention to Select Committees of this House. I well remember when my noble friend and I debated that report—indeed, many other noble Lords took part in that debate. That is just one of the many mechanisms that Parliament has, and that wider society has, for holding the Government and HS2 to account.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, when it comes to misrepresentation, can the noble Baroness confirm that Mr Andy Street, the Conservative Mayor of the West Midlands, was persuaded by the Prime Minister not to resign over the decision on HS2 because he was promised that the link to Euston would be continued? It now turns out that that is not certain at all and depends on additional private finance. Why have the Government not been straight about this ridiculous decision not to run it into Euston?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord well knows, the decision has been taken to run it into Euston. My colleague the Rail Minister has had a number of meetings with members of the private finance community to start developing plans and options to get that finance together. Battersea Power Station, for example, attracted £9 billion in private sector investment. It is not beyond the wit of man to do something similar, perhaps even more, for the Euston quarter.

Network Rail: Ely Area Capacity Enhancement Programme

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from what the noble Lord has just said about the importance of this to the east of England, does the Minister also agree that the Government need to press on determinedly with the Oxford-Cambridge link? That too would have a very powerful impact, not just on the UK economy but on the east of England.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that we need to find those projects that will have the most benefit to both passengers and freight. That is the whole point of the rail network enhancement pipeline; it will set out our priorities, give certainty to the supply chain and allow us to continue to invest £2 billion a year on enhancements.

Low Traffic Neighbourhoods

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly look into that, but I am not entirely sure that I will be able to do as my noble friend asks. The safety of people on our roads is critical, and one of the elements of traffic management is the reduction in killed and seriously injured people which I am sure all noble Lords would want to see. It is not just about journey time changes but increasing the number of people walking and cycling, and looking at modal shift and levels of car ownership.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I was brought up in Oxford. It was known then as the “city of screeching tyres” and the college buildings were blackened by pollution. Surely the best way to promote the city is to continue with the huge environmental improvements that are taking place there.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I said earlier, that is a matter for the council.

Midlands Rail Hub

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, I cannot pre-empt what the Chancellor is going to say on Thursday; what I can say is that the Government are committing and will commit to record investment in our rail services and infrastructure. Projects such as the integrated rail plan are incredibly important—they unlock potential—and the Government are committed to delivering it. We will be looking at the options for high-speed to Leeds, and we intend to publish the terms of reference for the route study to Leeds after the Autumn Statement

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that the noble Baroness cannot anticipate Thursday’s announcement, but does she accept that the rail links between the West Midlands and the east Midlands are very slow, often packed and in urgent need of development and reconstruction? Will she at least, in the light of Thursday’s announcement, look sympathetically at the prime needs of the Midlands for future rail investment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for highlighting that. The three main elements of the Midlands Rail Hub—west, central and east—would improve connectivity within the Midlands. It is right that we look at the outline business case that has so recently been submitted, and decisions will be made in due course.

HS2: Wales

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As my noble friend will know, the Government set out in the integrated rail plan tens of billions of pounds of investment across the north and the Midlands. We want to take that forward in line with the 2019 manifesto. She will also be aware that an Autumn Statement is coming up on 17 November, and I cannot say anything further at this time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, in the discussions which the noble Baroness has undoubtedly had with the Treasury on the benefits of continuing with HS2 north of Birmingham, has she pointed out that the city of Birmingham has already seen massive inward investment by companies moving there in advance of HS2 coming? Does she not agree that the same would happen in the north if HS2 were to continue up there?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that Birmingham and the surrounding areas have seen huge investment following the confirmation that HS2 would go there. Indeed, the same could well happen for the western leg. It is in the strategic case, and the case for HS2 going north from Birmingham is strengthened by the fact that we believe businesses will flock to Manchester and other areas.

Vehicles: Purchase Price and Running Costs

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not think it is a loss of confidence in the strategy. The Government’s intention is that the UK remains at the forefront of EV manufacture, innovation and batteries; that is why we have the Faraday fund and the automotive transformation fund. All these elements are really important, but I accept that some companies will come into the market, and some will leave. There will be some flux, but at the moment, we are not concerned.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that sounds like a very laissez-faire attitude. What discussions have the Government had with BMW about this very unfortunate decision?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As far as I am aware, the Department for Transport has not had any discussions with BMW about this very unfortunate decision. However, I will inquire with colleagues in BEIS as to whether they have. But, as I say, there are always changes within any particular manufacturing sector. None of us wants the Mini to be produced in China and it may well be that other models come back to the UK.

Highway Code

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Many questions, to which I hope to give at least some response; I am grateful to my noble friend. If we could bring everything together and lay it before Parliament all at once, that would be marvellous, but the reality is that these things happen over a period of time. We do not want to delay certain elements that we can get out of the door. For example, noble Lords will know that we changed the Highway Code back in 2021, making some alterations for smart motorways to include red X stoppages. We have changed and will continue to change the Highway Code, because the situation on our roads is developing very quickly. My noble friend raised the issue of e-scooters which, as noble Lords know, are currently illegal except for the temporary trials. That is why they are not in the Highway Code.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Could the noble Baroness tell the House to what extent she thinks motorists understand the new Highway Code?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There has been a huge amount of coverage of the new Highway Code, for which we are extremely grateful, and there will continue to be coverage. But I am afraid there has been an awful lot of hot air as well, because the changes are actually not that significant. If, as a pedestrian, you start to cross the road, you already have priority; there has been no change in that regard. There was already guidance as to where cyclists should ride on the road; we are just clarifying what is reasonable and what is not. I am content that there is an awful lot of coverage at the moment. There will be more paid-for coverage by the department when we launch our campaign.