Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To move that this House regrets that it is not clear from the Impact Assessment or Explanatory Memorandum of the Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (HC 1148) how the findings from the consultation have fed into the development of the policy or the estimates of the costs and benefits of the changes.
Relevant document: 35th Report from the Merits Committee.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this statement of changes in Immigration Rules makes a number of changes to those rules and sets out the second set of changes to the rules governing the student immigration system in tier 4 of the points-based system. The tier 4 changes include restricting permission to work during studies for students applying for entry clearance or leave to remain and a restriction in the entitlement to bring dependents, partners and children into the UK.
The statement has been brought to the special attention of the House by the Merits Select Committee in relation to the tier 4 rules. I wish to express my great thanks to that committee for its work in relation to this statement. The House may recall that the Government earlier published a statement of intent, setting out the full planned changes for the student immigration system. However, that statement was laid without the impact assessment for the changes and the committee identified significant gaps in the analysis of the consultation responses. The Government have now laid the impact assessment for the reform of tier 4 of the points-based system.
The impact assessment says that the Government intend to reduce abuse through the immigration system and to reduce net immigration significantly. The impact assessment sets out the policy objectives as being to,
“Reduce the areas of the student route that are prone to abuse … Reduce net migration overall by the end of the current Parliament … Improve selectivity of students to the UK, to ensure they are the brightest and the best … Restore public confidence in the immigration system … and … Ensure that the system is robust and practical to enforce”.
The Opposition have consistently set out their concerns about the impact of this policy. The UK has a worldwide reputation for providing quality education to overseas students. My understanding is that we are the second most popular student destination in the world after the US. Overall, the international student market is estimated to be worth £40 billion to the UK economy. There is very real concern about the impact of the Government’s actions on this very important economic sector and the reputation of the UK generally. I hardly think that the current state of the economy lends itself to being the Government being so cavalier with such an important part of it.
Earl Attlee
My main point was that the consultation was responding to the policy rather than giving us detailed data on the likely effect of the policy.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who seems to be working very hard today.
First of all, I echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, about the work of the Merits Select Committee, of which she is a distinguished member. It is very difficult for noble Lords to go through all the statutory instruments and statements of changes, and without the Committee we would be in a very difficult position as far as parliamentary scrutiny is concerned. Essentially this debate is about two issues. One is parliamentary process and the information provided by the Home Office; and it is also about the policy. On the issue of parliamentary process, it is very important that the Home Office learns lessons from the way in which this statement and previous statements have been produced for when further changes in Immigration Rules are brought before your Lordships’ House.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has said that this is not the first such occasion, and indeed it is not. We come back consistently to this House to debate these changes because of the inadequacy of the department’s approach. The noble Earl said that his department readily takes on board the points made by the Merits Select Committee, but so far it has not. We continuously come back to debate these issues because the Merits Select Committee has identified inadequacies in his department’s approach. I have very little confidence that we will not be back in another few weeks with further discussion on the same basis.
The noble Earl has kindly offered to write to noble Lords on points to which he has not responded—he always does and it is appreciated—and I hope that his department will take this to heart. I thought it was very interesting when the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said that the problem with the IA was that it only had two options: the do-nothing option, or the option of taking what the Home Office wants to do. Rather surprisingly, the Government have come to the view that the Home Office got it right in the first place. I am sure that we are all reassured that, after rigorous consideration of the Home Office’s original proposals, they have indeed, through the IA, come to the view that that is the right approach. Normally on IAs, one seems to get a series of options where I think one can get a more considered view, and I would hope for that in the future.
I too would pay tribute to the ILPA. I thought that the briefing paper it produced for us was, as ever, very comprehensive. Very interesting were the examples that it gave of people who would be badly affected by these proposals and changes. I hope that the noble Earl will have some time to have a look at these examples, because I think that they bring home to us how these changes can have a real impact on people from other countries.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, spoke about the impact of English language schools, and I agreed with everything that he said. I thought that he put a very pertinent point to the noble Earl about the proposal to change from the accreditation scheme to the monopolistic provider that is now going to be provided in relation to inspection, which will be very expensive indeed. The noble Earl gave the reasoned response that he thought this was going to be a more effective and more rigorous scrutiny. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, might feel able to bring this back in some form because I think that it warrants further debate. I am particularly worried about the monopolistic issue and the cost, and I hope that there will be an opportunity to debate this further in due course.
I very much agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who spoke from his experience of the School of Pharmacy. My experience is particularly in the health field. Throughout the world we have wonderful contacts with healthcare systems in other countries, and it is because we have always had this marvellous open door, with people from other countries who often come to help the NHS. My fear is that it is not just the change in the rules that will make a difference but the change in the atmosphere; people from other countries will get the feeling that they are no longer wanted here to study, and that is a major concern.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Yes, my Lords, but surely the point is to deal with the abuse in a holistic way and not stop legitimate people coming here. I fear that the changes will have that dampener impact. I really do.
On the question of consultation, I, like the noble Baroness, was rather confused by the Minister’s response. The Government seem to dismiss these responses because they commented on the policy or because they were unrepresentative. I do not know who decided that they were unrepresentative; it is almost as if the Government have decided that anyone who does not like the policy should not be listened to because they are unrepresentative. I just point out to him—and I am indebted to my noble friend Lord Rosser for referring to this—that the Merits Committee in paragraph 10 says that the committee very much regrets the lack of information and how the findings from the consultation fed into the conclusions and estimates that the Government have made. As the committee says,
“the estimation of costs to educational establishments would benefit from”,
consultees, and it is,
“regrettable as the Government presumably received some useful information given that the consultation specifically asked about the main advantages/disadvantages of the changes”.
If you are commenting on the general policy, I would have thought that you were actually talking about the main advantages and disadvantages of the changes. That really gives the game away. The fact is that all those legitimate organisations involved in education know that this has been a disastrous change in policy; they told the Government that and the Government take no notice. No wonder they have not fed that into the results of this statement of changes.
This has been a thoroughly good debate. Once again, the Government have found themselves rather lonely on this policy. That is because this policy is wrong and highly damaging to this country. I of course withdraw the Motion, but I hope that the Government will listen to what noble Lords have said tonight.
Travellers: Dale Farm
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the local authority has obligations under the law of homelessness, as the noble Lord fully appreciates. I go back to my original point: we cannot allow people to flout our planning laws.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the original Question was about cost. The noble Earl will know that currently we are debating the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which proposes to party-politicise our police force through the election of police commissioners. Would it not be true to say that the money being spent on those elected commissioners would be better spent on ensuring that our police forces are properly staffed?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord would raise the issue of police and crime commissioners; I would have been very disappointed if he had not. We do not intend to limit the influence of central government on policing decisions only to see the same restrictions imposed by PCCs. They will provide the community with a voice and local accountability that is currently non-existent.
Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) (Amendment) Order 2011
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) (Amendment) Order 2011 (SI 2011/547).
Relevant document: 24th Report from the Merits Committee.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I shall also speak to the Libya (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2011. Both instruments were drawn to the special attention of the House by the Merits Select Committee, to which I am grateful for its assiduous attention to Home Office statutory instruments.
The Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) (Amendment) Order 2011, otherwise known as the travel bans order, adds UN Security Council Resolution 1970, issued on 26 February 2011 in response to the situation in Libya, to Part 1 of the schedule to the Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) Order 2000. The effect of the amendment is to impose travel bans on Muammur Gaddafi, his family and certain Libyan government officials. The helpful Explanatory Memorandum accompanying the SI says that the travel bans order thereby implements the UK’s obligations under the UN resolution.
On 28 February, the Government also laid before Parliament the Libya (Financial Sanctions) Order 2011. The Explanatory Memorandum says that the financial sanctions order implements in the UK the asset-freezing measures in the UN resolution and prohibits any dealing with the funds and economic resources of certain individuals and entities, and making available funds or economic resources to or for the benefit of those persons. The financial sanctions order came into force on 27 February and was accompanied by a letter to the Lord Speaker. Although the financial sanctions order is required to be laid before both Houses of Parliament under the United Nations Act 1946, it is not subject to parliamentary procedure.
The two instruments need to be considered in the context of two other orders, the Export Control (Amendment) Order 2011 and the Export Control (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2011. The Export Control (Amendment) Order 2011 introduces a new control on the export of uncirculated Libyan bank notes. The Export Control (Amendment) (No. 2) Order revokes the original order and embraces unused Libyan coins as well as unused bank notes. Taken together, these four instruments form a legislative response to the situation in Libya, much of which follows the international response to developments in that country.
I want to make it clear that I do not seek to oppose these instruments; indeed, I support them. However, I thought that it would be useful, and a service to the Committee, if the Minister was in a position to provide further information on the implementation of the instruments. The travel bans order came into effect on 28 February 2011 and the Libya (Asset-Freezing) Regulations came into force on 3 March. I would be very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, if he could say how implementation of the instruments has proceeded so far and whether any particular problems have been experienced. I would also be grateful to him if he could say whether other countries are likely to be affected by similar action, given the events that we are seeing in a number of countries in the vicinity of Libya, about which there is great concern. I note that the asset-freezing regulations apply to small businesses. Can the noble Earl tell me how many such businesses might be affected? Perhaps he can also say whether any further action is contemplated against Libya in this area.
Overall, I have prayed against these statutory instruments because they have been drawn to the special attention of the House and there ought to be an opportunity to allow the House to debate these matters. As I have said to the Committee, I do not object at all to what is in the statutory instruments, but it would be good to know what progress has been made. I beg to move.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for giving us an opportunity to exercise our scrutiny function rather better by putting some very apposite and relevant questions on the table about the statutory instruments. We Liberal Democrats welcome the imposition of a travel ban on Muammur Gaddafi and his family and certain other Libyan government officials, which has allowed the implementation of the UK’s obligations under the UN Security Council resolutions in response to the situation in Libya.
I, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, am concerned about the practical implication of the implementation of these statutory instruments. We undoubtedly agree that we must guarantee that the excluded persons watch-list, which will be used both by staff overseas and at UK ports, identifies accurately people who are not to be admitted to the UK, and I hope that any individual who is subject to the ban and who entered the UK by deception, and so is in breach of the travel ban, will be identified and treated as an illegal entrant and will be subject to appropriate action before the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, if that applies. I say that advisedly because, having looked at the list of people who are covered by the United Nations travel ban, and given that the International Criminal Court’s criminal prosecutor is expected to make an announcement in September, the months leading up to then will be when these people will attempt to flee to safe havens if they choose to do so.
I am concerned to read that the ban could also be lifted in very limited circumstances, and I wonder whether the noble Lord the Minister will tell us in what circumstances the ban could be lifted here in the UK and what procedures we would go through for it to be lifted. I also wonder whether there has been any record of an individual who is as yet subject to the travel ban and who has been arrested in the UK or who is known to have connections to the UK and might already be here.
On the asset-freezing regulations, I thank, through the Minister, his noble friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint for his extensive response to me, in a letter dated 1 April 2011, on the travel order. It clarified a lot of my questions about how the asset-freezing regulations would be implemented in the UK. I am further pleased to note that the UK asset freezes will not be limited to assets that are held only in the name of Muammur Gaddafi, that there are several other designated individuals and that the list continues to be updated.
The issue for me is the extent to which Libyan state entities, or entities that have links to the Libyan state but that might not be official state entities, should be regarded as directly or indirectly owned or controlled by the Gaddafi family acting on behalf of, or on the direction of, members of the Gaddafi family. I know that the Treasury has issued guidance that the financial sector and other persons should bear in mind that Muammur Gaddafi and his family have considerable control over the Libyan state and its enterprises in deciding how to conduct proper due diligence over any transaction that involves Libyan state assets. Although we welcome the guidance, I have to say to the Treasury—I have raised this previously—that it seems to us that UK financial institutions are not really clear as to how to deal with freezing the assets of individuals rather than of readily identifiable state organisations or commercial enterprises. That issue has gone on over the years and I would like to record some concern that Treasury guidance does not seem to be more specific. You speak to people in the banks who tell you that they have very limited means of identifying individuals because the money is laundered in so many different ways before it arrives here. Perhaps we need to invest, through HMRC or some other body—I cannot identify the body—a little more in clearer intelligence about all those front organisations that use the City of London and other European centres to launder assets.
I conclude by saying that it is important to know that those sanctions and regimes differ from one another and from a US sanctions regime, and that people who are involved in moving their assets around, particularly when there are these sorts of asset freezes, are capable of hiring smart white-collar advisers to tell them how to buck the rules in one regime to another. I hope that here in the UK, not least to safeguard our reputation on money laundering, the Government ensure that companies monitor the position and keep abreast of new legislation, new designations and potentially new licences.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for that and to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, for her contribution to the debate. Let me start by making it clear that we support the two instruments before us and the other two that are associated. I was not expecting the noble Earl to give a detailed assessment of the Government’s overall approach to Libya and to the situation, but I take his point and I am sure that it would be welcomed should there be further opportunities in your Lordships’ House for debates on these matters over the next few weeks and months. I have also noted that we might expect orders in relation to 13 individuals in Syria—I think that that was what the noble Earl said—following action—
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I now understand that the instruments will come into force at 6 pm tonight.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I was just going to say that I welcomed that information, and the fact that action has been taken in this area. The noble Earl has also explained the reason for departing from normal practice in laying the travel bans order. I have no problem with that. He made some very interesting comments about the proportionate application of the asset-freezing regulations. I say again that I fully understand the reasons for that proportionate approach. I hope that his department will be able to monitor that effectively, as experience shows that proportionate application sometimes leads to gaps that people can find their way through. Therefore, it would be good if one could be assured that these matters will be kept under review. I was glad that the noble Earl was able to report that no particular practical measures have so far surfaced in relation to the instruments before us. Overall, I am grateful to him for the information that he has given us.
Earl Attlee
It might be helpful if I clarify the position slightly. The asset freeze comes into force at 6 pm tonight, not the travel ban—that will come later. However, I do not advise the designated people to try to travel to the UK.
Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2011
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for his careful explanation of the order that is in front of us.
This order is drawn to the special attention of the House by the Merits Committee, but it does not say what is unusual about the order or what distinguishes it from other orders covered by the same report; particularly the three orders dealing with amendments of fees for other services. According to its terms of reference, there are four grounds on which the Merits Committee may draw the attention of the House to an instrument, draft or proposal, and in this case your Lordships may think that the only ones that might apply—or should apply—are,
“that it is politically or legally important or gives rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House”.
Assuming that is the case, the only matters of substance raised in the delegated legislation Committee of another place were the effect of the order on Bangladeshi and Chinese restaurants, and the question of whether UKBA would be able to cope with the workload of dealing with applications.
Since the Government have taken steps to reduce the number of immigrants the burden will be eased, but the 5,200 cut in UKBA staff is more than proportional to the reduction in the number of cases that they are expected to process.
The predicted effect of the fee increases on applications varies between zero and 2.5 per cent in the case of an application by a tier four student to change his course, which has been free in the past but is now to cost £386. On top of that, the requirements for tier four applicants have been tightened up further. Applicants from outside a university, for example, will have to present a test certificate from an independent test provider of their competence in English to level B2. It would be surprising if these new requirements did not have a larger deterrent effect, and I would be grateful if my noble friend could give us his estimate of the drop in the number of tier four applicants expected from the Home Secretary’s announcement last month. We need this to be able to assess the expected increase in the average productivity of immigration officers dealing with tier 4 cases, and hence to get a feeling of whether the reduction in UKBA staff numbers can be managed without damaging the quality of their decisions.
The rationale of the order is that fees should be set at the correct level to ensure that the income generated contributes adequately towards the costs of running the immigration system. The impact assessment estimates that UKBA income will rise by £65 million as a result of the fee changes proposed, but what will the total income be, and how close will the UKBA be to balancing income with expenditure after the cuts have taken place? I apologise to my noble friend for not having given notice of the questions that I am asking as I would normally do; I just did not have the time.
I understand that the Government have decided to defer implementing the proposed cuts in the UKBA until they have disposed of the remaining legacy cases. Will my noble friend confirm that? How many of those cases were still on the books at the latest convenient date, and what has been the average rate of completion of those cases since the start of 2011? They have always been pretty vague about when the legacy cases are going to be completed. I should have thought, as we were approaching the end of the process, that it ought to be possible to be a bit more precise now.
Under what conditions may the fees themselves be waived? For example, the fees for the registration of a minor as a British citizen are rising significantly. This is money that is intended not just to cover the administrative cost of the application but to make a profit for the UK Border Agency. If a child is prevented from registering as a British citizen for no other reason than a fee, designed to make profits for the UKBA, how does that meet the “child’s best interests” principle under the convention on the rights of the child, to which the Government are a signatory?
I have had a letter just now from Cambridge Assessment, which I think is a firm that is well known to the UKBA for supplying services in English-language skills. It expresses concern that those who cannot pay fees may not be able to learn crucial skills that they need to find work and play a positive role in their communities, as we would all wish. I have not had a chance to discuss this in detail with Cambridge Assessment, but the firm has asked me for a discussion and I am intending to meet it and go into these points in more detail. Has the Minister considered the effects on people who do not contribute to society because they are unable to find the fee for the English-language test?
Another important question relates to the ministerial authorisation on race discrimination, which was covered by a letter on 21 March from the Immigration Law Practitioners Association to the Minister, Damian Green, of which I have seen a copy. This permits the refusal of applications on grounds of specified nationality and the making of additional requirements or examinations that would not be required of another nationality and that may lead to refusal. The applicant will not know, because the specified nationalities will not be made public. He or she will have paid the fee —which is much higher than in previous years and is increasing again—but may be refused by reason of his or her nationality and not on the strength of his or her application. Perhaps the noble Earl would comment on that.
The ILPA letter also makes the general point that if the UKBA is to make a profit from charging fees, it should deliver a commensurate service. For instance, its service standards include timeframes within which applications should be dealt with, but it constantly fails to meet them. There is also the grossly unfair practice of refusing an application that would have been approved under the rules in operation at the time it was made because the rules changed some time later. The least that should happen in those circumstances is that the fee should be refunded.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Earl for his introduction and detailed and helpful explanation, and for agreeing to answer questions not necessarily confined to this order. As he said, the fees contained in the order are set in the context of the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2011, which we debated some weeks ago.
I was interested by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I have not taken it that this has been drawn to the special attention of the House. There are three categories in the report: instruments drawn to the special attention of the House, other instruments of interest and instruments that are not drawn to the special attention of the House and which presumably are not thought to be of interest either. That probably explains why the Merits Committee has not given any further explanation of its consideration of this. I suspect that it has an intrinsic interest in the fees structure arising from the decision of the Government to move to a flexible charging model aimed at allowing the UKBA to generate sufficient revenue.
The noble Lord raised very apposite questions. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, will not be surprised if I mention the context in which we debate this, and the responsibilities of the UKBA. The agency is expecting a reduction of 5,000 staff. Almost every day, Ministers talk about the new responsibilities of the UKBA. I have raised this matter on a number of occasions but have yet to receive a response to my concern about whether the UKBA is in a position to take a massive reduction in the number of its staff when it is having new responsibilities constantly placed on it. Perhaps the noble Earl will comment on that.
We have already discussed the principle of the fees increase. This is our opportunity to look at some of the detail, and I will ask the noble Earl a few questions. Annexe 5 contains an interesting estimate of the decrease in annual applications. The estimate appears to be related in part to elasticity assumptions contained in Annexe 4. I note that on page 12 of the impact assessment there is some discussion of the methodology of estimating the decrease in applications. I will not tempt fate or put the noble Earl through agony by asking for an explanation of the methodology, but perhaps he would comment on how robust the methodology is, and how accurate are the estimates in Annexe 5. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, suggested, they will have a knock-on impact on the resources that will be made available to the UKBA.
I also refer the noble Earl to page 13 of the impact assessment, where the consequence of the fees increase is expected to cost the UK economy £24.4 million in 2011-12, and £89.4 million over the next four years. My reckoning from the tables contained there is that the net result, taking account of the extra income through the fee charges, is a very small benefit of around £4 million per year. Can the noble Earl confirm that? To me, this means that the benefits are therefore extremely marginal. They might be advantageous in relation to Home Office funding and the funding of the UKBA, but because of the consequences to the UK economy, the overall profit and loss account seems to come out even. On that basis, can the noble Earl comment on whether this is really an appropriate way forward?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for the considered debate given to these regulations. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his comments about the Merits Committee reports. I am sure he is right. I will write on any vital points I do not cover in my response.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked a number of very good questions. He asked about students switching courses. Tier four migrants who applied for leave from 5 October 2009 have to apply and pay a fee to the UK Border Agency to change sponsor as part of a new leave application. Students who applied for leave under tier four of the points-based system between 31 March 2009 and 4 October 2009 would now have to pay the UK Border Agency when they want to change their educational establishment. Currently the UK Border Agency considers the requests from these students when they wish to change their educational establishment and approves or refuses them accordingly. There is a cost to the UK Border Agency for undertaking this work but no fee is charged. In the current economic climate we think it is right that these costs are met by the applicant. It is right that applicants pay this fee as there is a cost to the UK Border Agency of assuring that this switch of establishment does not infringe on the students’ immigration status. Last year we received about 18,000 such applications, although we anticipate a much lower level this year. The proposed fee of £160 will be lower than the £386 that those who were granted leave based on applications dated from 5 October 2009 are required to pay. Changes to the immigration rules will be announced before this fee is introduced. This is part of our process of making sure that those who come here to study are not coming here to work.
The noble Lords, Lord Avebury and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, talked about some of the reductions in the UK Border Agency. We are aiming to maintain service standards in terms of time and quality as we reduce costs but improve productivity. We are achieving this through investment in technology, moving to electronic rather than paper applications and case files, improved workflow management, and more efficient security-checking arrangements. These fee proposals will ensure that, while we are reducing costs, we are increasing income levels as we shift the contribution for the migration system from the UK taxpayer to the migrants who benefit.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, also made the point about balancing income and expenditure. In 2011-12 the UK immigration system is expected to cost over £2 billion. Our proposals will ensure that we recover approximately 36 per cent through fees from applicants and the services. These additional fee increases are expected to raise approximately an extra £90 million. Of this figure we expect to generate around £65 million from income fees set at levels where they exceed the administrative cost of processing an application. The rest of this figure will come from fees set at or below costs. The remaining costs are met by the UK taxpayer. The Committee should not forget that.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, talked about children born to foreign members of the UK Armed Forces. We believe that all those individuals who are required to register for British nationality should pay a fee to reflect the value of the entitlement that citizenship bestows. We only need to think of current events where Her Majesty’s Armed Forces are repatriating people stuck in difficult situations all around the globe. We already offer significant concessions to those family members by enabling their children to bypass the requirements placed on children of other migrants to obtain settlement in the UK before an application for citizenship can be made. This offers a more accelerated and hence cheaper route to citizenship than that available to family members of other migrants. An application to register for British citizenship is the free choice of the individual, or their parent in the case of children, and is not a requirement placed by the UK Government on a migrant asking to stay. It is charged at £540. By contrast, the fees required to reach a point where a child born overseas to a migrant worker could claim citizenship would be at least £2,322.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about legacy cases. We estimate that we will have completed these by July 2011. He also asked about refunds for refused applications. The fees are set for the work involved in considering the application, not according to its outcome. He also asked about refusal of nationality. He will understand that this is a debate about fees, so I will write to him on that point.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made an extremely important point about international comparisons. He suggested that perhaps the Chinese would start charging us higher fees. We regularly review the fees charged by the UK against those charged by comparator economies across the globe, and I imagine that the Chinese do the same. However, migration systems and fees are complex. Direct comparisons of price can be difficult because we cannot always compare like with like. Visa fees vary considerably between comparable economies and depend usually on the particular circumstances of the applicant, such as their current location, their category of stay and their relationship to the settled person. Visas can be issued for different lengths of time, can allow more than one visit and can confer particular entitlements to work or bring in dependants. Some countries charge an additional fee for dependant applications.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, that point was very helpful. Does the noble Earl accept that if costs go up—and the general trend is that UK fees are going up—although it is difficult to equate like for like exactly, there might be a knock-on impact on British businesses trading abroad because if fees go up here, they will go up there?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, there might be a small effect, but when one considers how much people will pay—thousands—to gain illegal entry to this country, the cost of a legal visa is relatively small.
We believe that our fees compare favourably with those of key competitor countries and offer good value, particularly when one considers the benefits and entitlements of a successful application. Where visa fees charged by the UK are more expensive than those of other countries—for example, fees for visit visas—we tend to offer better entitlements to applicants. For example, the Schengen visa is a three-month, single-visit visa, whereas the UK short-term visit visa is multiple-entry and valid for six months.
I will make some international price comparisons. For a short-term visit visa for up to six months, the UK charges £76, Australia £65, Canada £66, New Zealand £67 and the USA £96. The Schengen visa is cheaper, but it is single-entry and valid only for three months. For tier 1 exceptional talent, the UK charges £800, Australia £1,080 and Canada £662. For a tier 1 investor, the UK charges £800 and Australia £2,132. I could go on, but I would weary the Committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about the robust methodology of the impact assessment. The methodology that we applied for estimating the impact of elasticity of demand was agreed by cross-government economists and by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee. We do not believe that fee increases at the level we propose will have a significant impact on the volume of demand.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about the fee for the English language test, which is not included in the powers being debated here. He asked for an explanation of the income figures in the impact assessment. The additional fees increases are expected to raise approximately £90 million. Of this, we expect to generate around £65 million in income from setting fees at a level that exceeds the administrative cost of processing applications. I apologise for repeating the figures.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I apologise for asking the noble Lord, but my confusion is that in the table at the bottom of page 13 under the cost benefit analysis it says that:
“Benefits … Revenue raised from fee changes for those who continue to apply (PV)”
is £24.1 million. However, over the page on page 14 it says:
“UKBA’s annual income is estimated to rise by £65.4 million as a result of fee changes”.
Are those two different definitions?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that the analysis is robust. I think it best that I write to the noble Lord with the exact situation, but it is quite a complicated analysis. The Committee should be assured that the brightest and the best will continue to be welcomed to the UK as will those who seek to come here to visit or to invest. We will also continue to monitor the impacts of our proposed changes. I believe that these regulations provide a basis for the sustainable immigration system that noble Lords want and I commend them to the Committee.
Student Visas
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement. I say at once that I am glad that the Government have had second thoughts on this matter.
The Minister will be aware of the concerns expressed in your Lordships’ House on 15 and 16 February about the impact of the original Home Office proposals on universities in the UK and the seeming conflict between his department and BIS. On the one hand we had the noble Lord, Lord Green, the Trade Minister, speaking warmly of the role of British educational institutions as export earners. On the other hand, we had the Home Office putting forward proposals that would have had a devastating impact on the finances and reputation of our universities. I remind your Lordships that Universities UK called the original proposals “damaging and dangerous”, the UK Council for International Student Affairs called them,
“potentially the most damaging for a decade if not a generation”,
and the Association of MBAs, writing in The House magazine, was equally concerned about the impact on recruitment, business and growth.
Our universities are one of our crown jewels and we should cherish the esteem in which they are held internationally. No wonder other countries were lining up to take advantage of the threatened changes here and attract many thousands of bright students away from their preferred destination, the United Kingdom.
In the Statement, the Minister said that the message to the brightest and best students around the globe is that Britain’s world-class universities remain open for business. Amen to that, but can the Minister assure me that the final decision of the Home Secretary has been communicated to and discussed with our universities? What has their response been?
What impact does the Minister think that the proposals will have on the income to be earned from international students? I remind him that Universities UK estimates that, in a market that is growing at about 7 per cent per year, international students offer the UK considerable growth potential and bring huge benefits to regional and national economies. Its estimate is that international students contribute more than £5 billion to the UK economy through tuition fees and off-campus expenditure as well as bringing extensive cultural and political benefits to the UK and, as a result, creating local jobs as well. Is the Minister confident that the Government’s proposals will not have an impact on those benefits?
I turn to the post-study work mechanism. Although this is to be closed, the Government have decided to retain the right of international students to work for a period of time in the UK after graduation in graduate-level jobs. Again, Universities UK has said that this is critical in attracting international students to the UK. Without it we would be at a severe competitive disadvantage to countries such as Canada, the US and Australia. It is reported frequently that international students feel that it is very important when they come here to be able to deploy their skills in the workplace for a limited time before going home. This also boosts employers in the UK who are looking for trained graduates in strategically valuable disciplines. As the noble Earl described in the Statement, the rules around this mechanism are to be tightened. Can he guarantee that the overall package that will now be on offer to prospective international students, including the post-study work mechanism, will none the less be at least comparable to those of other countries, and that we will not be put at a competitive disadvantage?
I note the actions that the Government intend to take in relation to bogus colleges and bogus students. We welcome such actions and will study them with a great deal of interest. However, as the Statement made some rather pejorative points about the previous Government, I ask the noble Earl to confirm that the previous Government took action to close down many bogus colleges. Will he confirm that, as a result of that action, more than 140 colleges were closed?
I also ask the noble Earl about the capacity of the UKBA, which will have an important role to play in policing these new arrangements. The noble Earl will be aware that, as a result of cuts in his department, the UKBA is expected to lose a total of about 5,000 staff from its employ. Can he confirm—and reassure me—that the UKBA is in a position to manage its affairs effectively in relation to international students, alongside the many other responsibilities that the Government have given the UKBA in the past few months on the one hand, and to reduce its staff by 5,000 on the other?
Finally, the Statement said that we want high-quality international students to come here. I applaud that. Can the Minister assure me that his department will work closely with universities and Universities UK to monitor the position on a regular basis, so that the impact of these changes will be measured and adjustments made if it is apparent that there is an adverse effect on our universities?
People Trafficking
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Earl Attlee
The noble Baroness makes an important point. I am quite confident that we have considered carefully the matter of the age of the child. However, where the child is obviously younger or more vulnerable more attention will be paid by the UKBA officials.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, can the Minister tell me what role the British Transport Police has to play, particularly in relation to those two passenger stations? Also, in view of the Government’s dangerous proposals to politicise our police forces through elected police commissioners, what changes are envisaged for the British Transport Police?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this issue is primarily a responsibility of the UKBA, not the British Transport Police. However, if those police saw a child at St Pancras or at any other station who appeared to be vulnerable in any way, but particularly to trafficking, it would obviously be their duty to do something about it and to refer the child to the local authorities.
Visas
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord asked about the situation with academic institutions. The answer is that they are not yet convinced of our good intentions. The UK’s education system is world-renowned. We remain the second most popular destination of choice, second only to the United States; and we intend to maintain that position. Post-study work is an important component of that.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Earl says that universities are not yet convinced. Surely the reason is that universities have done the analysis and looked at the consultation, and it is abundantly clear to them that under the Government’s proposals, many of them will be severely harmed financially. Today, the noble Earl’s department announced a climbdown on the immigration cap. When can we look forward to a climbdown on the student immigration consultation?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we will not climb down on our intention to avoid the abuse of the student route. We want to maintain the UK as a world-class academic destination, but we are not prepared to tolerate abuses of the system, which, as the noble Lord knows very well, take place.
Universities: Student Immigration System
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be the impact on universities of the proposed changes to the student immigration system.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, a consultation on the student immigration system closed on 31 January. It sought the views of all respondents on the effect of the proposals. The results of the consultation, and an impact assessment, will be published in due course.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. Last week, the noble Lord, Lord Green, who is Trade Minister, spoke warmly of the role of British educational institutions as export earners. Why is the noble Earl's department undermining that by proposing to cut the number of international students coming to the United Kingdom? Does he understand that this will have a devastating impact on the finances of many of our universities and will do enormous damage to UK interests?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are clear that we are not targeting genuine students at universities. The measures that we propose will ensure that the system is more selective for the brightest and the best. We will protect the areas that pose the least risk, including the universities sector, target the areas where risk of abuse is highest and ensure that genuine students will still be able to study at our world-renowned universities. The noble Lord is quite right to raise the issue. International students are vital for our trade position and for our soft power position.
Asylum Seekers: Medical Treatment
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think that the right reverend Prelate was referring to the process of removal. A few weeks ago, I visited the UK Border Agency’s training for the removal process. I am satisfied that the training was up to standard.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this issue is an example of the many responsibilities being placed on the UK Border Agency in conjunction with the National Health Service. Is the Minister satisfied that the UKBA will continue to focus on and give priority to these matters, given the 20 per cent cut in its budget and the reduction in its staff by 5,000? Is it not a question of cutting too fast and too deep?
Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2011
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the order concerns the charging for visa, immigration and nationality services and will enable the UK Border Agency to specify applications, processes and services for which it intends to set a fee. I thank all noble Lords who will take part in this debate. Specific fee levels will be set in separate legislation—using the affirmative procedure—that will be brought before the House in due course. Noble Lords will have the opportunity to ask searching questions about the level of fees in that debate.
In accordance with our legal powers, the order will carry forward our existing powers in the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2007 and set out the new provisions for which we intend to charge fees in future. The order will also transfer powers currently set out in the Consular Fees Order 2010 from Foreign and Commonwealth Office legislation to Home Office legislation so that all visa, immigration and nationality fees are handled in the same place. This will improve intelligibility for all customers, practitioners and corporate partners and will help address concerns raised previously in this House about the need for consolidation of such powers.
The order will allow us to charge fees in support of new services. For nationality applications, this includes the registration as British citizens, under amendments to Sections 1(3A) and 4D of the British Nationality Act 1981, of children born to foreign or Commonwealth parents who are serving as members of the Armed Forces. Previously, children born overseas to a foreign or Commonwealth parent serving outside the UK as a member of the Armed Forces had to wait until their return to the UK before they could acquire British citizenship. The order will also apply to those children born to a foreign or Commonwealth parent serving the UK Armed Forces who register as British citizens. As children born in the UK to a parent who is serving in the Armed Forces automatically become British citizens, both these changes will provide equality of treatment to the children of foreign or Commonwealth personnel irrespective of when or where they are born. The changes also represent action by the UK Border Agency on its commitment to enhance the immigration and nationality rights of Armed Forces personnel and their families.
The order will also provide a power to charge for requests for endorsements to amend the personal details on a previously issued national certificate.
In addition, some people are entitled to hold the status of British protected person through their connection with a former British protectorate, protected state, mandated territory or trust territory. Although this status can no longer be obtained automatically, people can apply for this sort of British nationality if they meet the appropriate criteria.
Students who were granted leave under tier 4 of the points-based system between 31 March 2009 and 4 October 2009 are currently required to advise the UK Border Agency when they are seeking to change their educational institution. Other tier 4 migrants apply and pay a fee to cover the cost of making such a change to the terms of their leave. We think that it is right that all students are treated equally in paying this fee. The order will provide that consistency.
The order will also allow us to charge a fee for highly trusted sponsor status at a level independent of the standard licence fee. This is an optional service for sponsors of tier 4 students under the points-based system. Currently, we charge the relevant sponsorship licence fee for such services. As we continue to develop service propositions for these sponsors, we believe that it is sensible to separate these provisions to ensure that we can set fees—subject to future parliamentary approval through the affirmative resolution procedure on the specific amounts—that better reflect the nature of the services provided.
Our power to charge fees for visa, immigration and nationality applications, processes and services is currently derived from the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2007.
The 2007 order has been amended twice since it came into force. Moving forward, however, to ensure that there is only one fees order in place under Section 51 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, we are consolidating the 2007 order and its amendment into this order. That will improve the intelligibility of our powers, as I mentioned earlier.
We will continue to ensure that fees for immigration and nationality demonstrate that the UK is open for business and retains its position as an attractive destination. We welcome the economic, cultural and social contribution made by legal migrants to the UK. As I said, we will return to Parliament in due course to debate further regulations under the affirmative procedure specifying the fee levels that rely on the powers in Section 51 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 and additional powers in the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004, as amended.
The order provides a basis for the sustainable immigration system that noble Lords all want and I commend it to the Committee.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that the Committee is grateful to the noble Earl for his clear introduction to the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2011. As he explained, the draft order enables the Secretary of State to set fees for applications related to immigration or nationality and to charge for the provision of services or processes related to immigration or nationality. Once this draft order comes into force, the Secretary of State will be able to make regulations setting out the relevant fees and charges.
That is fair enough. But what lies behind this seemingly reasonable approach is the immigration policy of the Government, which is causing serious concerns and can best be described as a complete shambles. The fact is that the Labour Government’s points-based system would have been a far more effective means of controlling non-EU migration rather than an arbitrary and inflexible cap. It is clear that the Government’s cap policy was not thought through properly. It certainly did not get the scrutiny that it deserved. Not only will it do little to control immigration, it is clear that the Prime Minister's flagship election promise to bring net immigration down to the tens of thousands has now been watered down from a firm pledge to just an aim.
Only an hour or two ago, the House passed the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill. It is worth referring to the comments of the Office for Budget Responsibility in November. It said that the Government’s immigration cap will make no difference to net immigration levels:
“The interim OBR’s June Budget estimates of trend growth estimates were based on an average net inward migration assumption of 140,000 per annum … Since June, the Government has announced a limit of 21,700 for non-EU migrants coming into the UK under the skilled and highly skilled routes from April 2011, a reduction of 6,300 on 2009 … At this stage, we judge that there is insufficient reason to change our average net migration assumption of 140,000 per year from 2010, which remains well below the net inflows of 198,000 seen in 2009”.
However frail the Government’s migration policy is, it is inescapable that enormous pressure is to be put on the UK Border Agency by the reduction in its budget of up to 20 per cent in real terms over the next four years. That feeds through into a reduction in staff of around 5,200. Cutting the number of border officers and staff by such an amount raises questions about the effective security of our borders. We seem to be seeing the noble Earl’s department desperately scrambling around trying to raise money through the use of the order. How much, it is impossible to say, as no details are given in the order or the Explanatory Memorandum and no impact assessment has been made. My understanding is that the reason for that is that the information will be made available alongside the regulations made in reliance upon this instrument. However, it is at least likely that the Home Office must have some indicative intent as to what income the fees will be expected to raise and I would be grateful if the noble Earl would inform the Committee of any details that he may have.
I would also like to follow on from the previous debate on the misuse of drugs by asking about consultation. We are informed that a full consultation was undertaken in September to December 2009, with a low response rate and support for a flexible fee policy. Has there been any further consultation since that took place?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I apologise for keeping the Committee waiting. I had an enormous opportunity to think up some more questions but, alas, the excitement of the vote rather inhibited me from doing so.
In his introductory remarks, the noble Earl mentioned that when the orders that will follow come to the House, they will be subject to certain scrutiny in relation to the fees. In relation to those subsequent orders, will there be full consultation before they are brought to the House?
I would finally like to ask him whether he can explain how he thinks the UKBA can be expected to carry out its crucial duties effectively when having to take out such a huge amount of people and finance. If he says that this is to be a more efficient use of the way in which the UKBA organises itself, and that there will be no impact on front-line UKBA services, I would be grateful if he could give me a definition of what he might mean by front-line services. He will be aware that I put down a Question to the Government on 1 December about the definition of front-line services in relation to police forces. As of today, that was still unanswered. It is the only Question that is still unanswered in your Lordships' House from before Christmas. A delay from 1 December to nearly mid-February is not very much to the credit of the Home Office. I realise that he is not answering such questions today, but I think that it would be helpful if he could give a definition of front-line services.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, my questions follow a number of those that were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, although I will not follow him on the desirability or otherwise of the changes to the Immigration Rules—or on the definition of front-line services in the case of Labour Party research on police numbers.
However, as I am confused about this—I apologise to the Committee if it is utterly clear to everyone else—I will ask my noble friend Lord Attlee whether this order lays the ground for changes to the Immigration Rules which Parliament has not yet agreed and has not yet had sight of. The answer may be that the rules which we will be asked to agree are a mixture of the same sorts of provisions as are in place at the moment but that they will be a different mix. I am unclear and slightly uneasy at the prospect of being asked to agree a structure for fees if this is related to the new rules themselves.
I should also be grateful if my noble friend will give us an assurance that moving fees relating to immigration and nationality matters from the consular fees order to regulations under the 2006 Act provides us with exactly the same level of scrutiny as has been available under the arrangement which is being superseded.
In terms of the substantive comment, there are a couple of matters on which I should like to have a word. As regards students, we are told in the Explanatory Memorandum that a student moving between institutions is currently not charged for the, let us say, visa—I am not quite sure of the status of the permission—and for the UKBA’s consideration of that. We are told that the order will enable—a term used throughout—fees to be imposed for the request to change institutions. I take it that the word “enable” means that there will be a fee. My comment is that, although I share the view expressed by consultees that it is right that the taxpayer does not bear the whole of the cost of this service, overseas students nevertheless bring a lot of money and potential good will with them. I feel a little uneasy—
Baroness Hamwee
Oh! The result of the Division in the House makes me feel even more uneasy. I also feel a little uneasy about the prospect of charging such students more.
With regard to the new provisions explained in paragraphs 7.3 and 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum, will the Minister say what thought has gone into allowing fees to be charged to provide “a route to … citizenship” for children born outside the UK to members of our Armed Forces? It seems to me to be pushing it a little to charge members of the Armed Forces for this. I hope that the Minister can amplify the thinking behind that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their considered response this afternoon.
The order concerns itself with the ability to set the fees. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used somewhat flamboyant language to describe our current immigration policy. Clearly we shall have to look forward to our discussions in the coming months, when he can table suitable Motions and Questions to explore his concerns further. However, I understand them; I am listening to similar concerns being expressed right around the House, and I will discuss these issues with my honourable friend Mr Damian Green tomorrow. I will use a lot of the noble Lord’s speech, when I read it in Hansard tomorrow, as my starting point. We can also look forward to the Oral Question on immigration next week; I am sure that the noble Lord is. There will be plenty of time to discuss all the issues in the detail that we want.
The level of fees will be set by further orders. Where the fees are above the level required for cost recovery, there has to be an affirmative procedure. Where the fees are lower than necessary for cost recovery, there will be the negative order procedure, but we intend to make sure that we can discuss all the fee levels together.
Some 2.5 million people are looking for work, many of whom have key skills to offer employers. There is more reason now than ever to limit economic migration. We are fully aware that we will not meet our target of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands by looking at economic routes alone, so we are looking at all the main immigration routes. We will also consult on changes to the marriage route and entitlement to settle in the UK, to make settlement a less automatic prospect.
I was asked how we decided the level of the limit. The MAC recommended a reduction of 6,300 visas in 2011-12, which we accepted. Applying that reduction to our 2009 baseline of 50,000 tier 1 and tier 2 visas results in an overall limit for 2011-12 of 43,700. However, the 2009 baseline includes 22,000 ICTs. As they have been exempted and need to be excluded from the baseline, that gives an overall limit of 21,700.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked what additional consultation had taken place since 2009. The UK Border Agency published results of the last full consultation on fees in January 2010. That consultation established the principle that the agency should charge flexibly to take into account wider policy aims, and 90 per cent agreed. Since then, we have engaged with the task forces representing the Armed Forces, education, employment, arts and the entertainment sectors.
The noble Lord also asked about the impact assessment and specific fee levels. We expect to raise £829 million from fee income in 2011-12, but that is only 36 per cent of the UK Border Agency costs. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, touched on whether the fees covered all the UK Border Agency’s costs; clearly, they do not. We will publish a full impact assessment when we lay the subsequent fee regulations, which will be brought before the House through the affirmative resolution procedure.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, mentioned much of our immigration policy. The Government believe that Britain can benefit from migration but not uncontrolled migration, which places unacceptable pressure on public services. We can reduce net migration without damaging our economy. We can increase the number of high-value migrants—the entrepreneurs, the investors, the research scientists—at the same time as we reduce the total number of people coming into Britain through economic routes.
The noble Lord asked broadly what the UK Border Agency is doing to ensure that the effect of any increase is minimised. The agency has committed to cutting its budget by up to 20 per cent in real terms over the next four years. That is the economic situation that we are in; that is the reality. The UK Border Agency is cutting overheads by more than a third over the spending review period. The agency will save around £500 million in efficiencies by reducing support costs, boosting productivity and improving value for money from commercial suppliers. The agency is determined to ensure that applicants pay more of the costs of running the agency, with taxpayers paying less. That will ensure that we can continue to provide the excellent service that noble Lords would wish.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about the definition of front-line services. We will provide a written response to that as soon as possible. I apologise for the delay in providing that information, but I will personally look into this with the Home Office.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the Armed Forces nationality fee. It is fair that, rather than the taxpayer, those seeking a benefit from the application should meet the costs of the consideration. A person or their parent makes a choice on whether they wish to register as a British citizen, so they accept that it involves the payment of a fee. Enabling a choice to be made also ensures that the person can make decisions regarding any other nationality that they may hold.
The noble Baroness also asked about the possibility of pricing out students. We remain committed to maintaining the UK as an attractive destination for work, for study, to visit or for cultural visits. We recognise that migrants make a valuable contribution to the wider British economy and continually monitor our fees to ensure that they remain competitive with similar endorsement types offered in other countries. We believe that our fees remain competitive, particularly when one considers them alongside the entitlements which are offered to successful applicants. We also need to ensure that the charging system is fair to those who use the system and fair to the UK taxpayer, who will continue to support the immigration system that brings benefits and enrichments to this country. The fees that we charge are neither designed nor expected to deter migrants from choosing to come to the UK.
We will return to Parliament in March with regulations under the affirmative procedure to ask for approval of the regulations that will detail the fee levels for the visa immigration and nationality services covered by this order. The Committee should be assured that the brightest and the best will continue to be welcome in the UK, as will those who seek to come here to visit or to invest.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I wonder whether I could just come back to the noble Earl on one or two points. First, I thank him for the comprehensive response that he gave to both me and the noble Baroness but I do have two points.
On the brightest and the best, I very much appreciate the noble Earl’s willingness to share some of these points with Mr Damian Green, the Minister responsible. My concern about students is one that comes from very reputable educational institutions—not the bogus institutions which we have debated and on which I think that a great deal of action has already taken place. These are respected institutions that have overseas students who make a huge contribution to the life and the finances of our higher education institutes and who go back to their own countries. They are also very helpful in future relationships between the UK and other countries.
The noble Earl knows that my background is in the health service, on which I refer noble Lords to the register of interests. However, if one thinks about the doctors who have trained here, for example, while I know that this is a slightly different issue from the more general one of students from other countries, the positive impact that they have on the UK healthcare industry for years to come is immeasurable. That is why we have to be careful about the consultation that is out with UKBA at the moment.
The second issue is that of fairness for those overseas students who are currently here and who will be impacted by the restriction on work. A crucial part of the experience for overseas students when they come here is that they are able to do some post-student work. Is the noble Earl prepared to look into this matter? I know we have Oral Questions next week, but these matters relating to work are being pursued by myself and by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, with a genuine concern about the impact that this will have on the UK and on our universities in particular.
The Minister very kindly responded to the points I raised about consultation. He is to bring forward orders later on with the proposed fee changes. Will the proposed fees in those orders have gone through some consultative procedure? It would be helpful to get an answer to that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, on the first point raised by the noble Lord, I agree with nearly everything that is said about the background to his concern; he is clearly right. I say “nearly everything” just in case he said something with which I cannot agree, but everything he said makes sense. He talked about post-student work, if I may put it that way. The problem is that some students have abused it and ruined it for others. We need to work out how we can get all the benefits of overseas students not only for ourselves but for the rest of the world while avoiding some of the problems.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I understand that, but the point is that we are in a competitive world. I am being told that other countries, such as the US and other European countries, are rubbing their hands with glee at the UKBA consultation because they know that the impact will be that the high-quality people, who would have come to the UK, will go elsewhere. From an economic point of view, that is madness. I am grateful for the tone of the noble Earl’s response, which is very constructive, but we need to be very careful about the signals we are giving to the kind of people we would always want to welcome to our shores.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's attitude to me because I am trying to be as helpful as I can and I look forward to drilling down into these issues and getting him the answers that he requires. The noble Lord made the point about the brightest and the best and the concerns of the education sector. We note those concerns and we will respond fully to the responses received on the UKBA students’ consultation. However, it is worth noting that not all students return immediately: 21 per cent of students who entered in 2004 were still here after five years. The noble Lord asked about consultation and my understanding is that there will be consultation internally with Government but not externally. If I am wrong on that I shall write to him. I hope I have answered all of the noble Lord's concerns.