Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this Second Reading debate. I thank the Minister for the way she introduced the Bill. I declare my interests as set out in the register, particularly those in technology and financial services: as an adviser to Ecospend, an open banking technology, and to Socially Recruited, an AI business.

It is a pleasure to take part in a Second Reading for the third time on one Bill with three different names. We should all feel grateful that the only word to survive in all those titles is “data”, which must be a good thing. It is also a pleasure to follow so many excellent speeches, to which I find myself simply saying “Yes, agree, agree”, in particular the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who pointed to some of the most extreme and urgent issues that we must address in data. I also support the concept from the noble Lord, Lord Knight, of the Government laying out their overall approach to all new technologies and issues around data so that we have a road map, suite, menu or whatever of everything they intend in the coming months and years, so that we can have clarity and try to enable consistency through all these Bills and statutory measures, which cover so much of our economy and society. As this is the third Second Reading for one Bill, I will cover three issues: smart data, automated decisions and the use of data in training AI.

On smart data, perhaps it would be better for the public if we called it “smart uses of data”. As has been mentioned, open banking is currently the only smart use of data. Perhaps one of the reasons why it has not been mainstreamed or got to a critical level in our society is the brand and rollout of open banking. We should all be rightly proud of the concept’s success— made in the UK and replicated in over 60 jurisdictions around the world, many of which have gone much further than us in a much shorter time. It demonstrates that we know how to do right-sized regulation and shows that we know how to regulate for innovation, consumer protection and citizens’ rights. Yet we are doing so little of this legislation and regulation.

It is one thing to pass that willed regulatory intervention; perhaps the Government and other entities did not do anywhere near enough promotion of the opportunities and possibilities of open banking. If you polled people on main street about open banking, I imagine they would say “I have no idea what you’re talking about; they’ve closed all the branches”. This goes to the heart of the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. Without a coherent narrative, explained, communicated and connected across our society, it is hardly surprising that we have not only this level of take-up of open banking but this level of connection to all the opportunities around these new technologies.

The opportunities are immense, as set out in this Bill. The extension of smart data into areas such as energy provision could be truly transformational for citizens and bill payers. What is the Government’s plan to communicate these opportunities on the passage of this Bill to make all bill payers, citizens and consumers aware of the opportunities that these smart data, smart energy and smart savings provisions may bring to them?

Secondly, as has rightly and understandably been mentioned by noble Lords, the Bill proposes a significant and material change to automated decision-making. It could be argued that one of the impacts of gen AI has been to cause a tidal wave of automated decisions, not least in recruitment and employment. Somebody may find themselves on the wrong end of a shortlisting decision for a role: an automated decision where the individual did not even know that AI was in the mix. I suggest that that makes as clear a case as any for the need to label all goods and products in which AI is involved.

The Bill seeks to take Article 22 and turn it into what we see in Clause 80. Would the Minister not agree that Clause 80 is largely saying, “It’s over to you, pal”? How can somebody effectively assert their right if they do not even know that AI and automated decision-making were in the mix at the time? Would the Minister not agree that, at the very least, there must be a right for an individual to have a personalised decision to understand what was at play, with some potential for redress if so sought?

Thirdly, on the use of data in training AI, where is the Bill on this most critical point? Our creatives add billions to the UK economy and they enrich our society. They lift our souls, making music where otherwise there may be silence, filling in the blank page with words that change our lives and pictures that elevate the human condition. Yet right now, we allow their works to be purloined without consent, respect or remuneration. What does the Bill do for our creative community, a section of the economy growing at twice the rate of the rest of it?

More broadly, why is the Bill silent when it comes to artificial intelligence, impacting as it does so many elements of our economy, society and individuals’ lives right now? If we are not doing AI in this Bill, when will we be? What are we waiting to know that we do not already know to make a decent effort at AI legislation and regulation?

The danger is that, with so much running through the Bill, if we do not engender a connection with the public then there will be no trust. No matter how much potential there is in these rich datasets and potential models to transform our health, education, mobility and so much more, none of it will come to anything if there is not public trust. I guess we should not be so surprised that, while we all enjoy “Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light” every Sunday evening, there is more than a degree of Henry VIII spattered through this Bill as a whole.

I move to some final questions. What is the Government’s position when it comes to the reversal of the burden of proof in computer evidence? We may need to modernise the situation pre-1999, but it should certainly be the case that that evidence is put to proof. We cannot continue with the situation so shamefully and shockingly set out in the Horizon situation, as rightly set out by my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot, who has done more than any in that area.

Similarly, on the Bill in its entirety, has the “I” of GenAI been passed over in the Bill as currently constructed? So many of the clauses and so much of the wording were put together before the arrival of GenAI. Is there not a sense that there is a need for renewal throughout the Bill, with so many clauses at least creaking as a consequence of the arrival of GenAI?

Will the Government consider updating the Computer Misuse Act, legislation which came into being before we had any of this modern AI or modern computing? Will they at least look at a statutory defence for our cyber community, who do so much to keep us all safe but, for want of a statutory defence, have to do so much of that with at least one hand tied behind their back?

Does the Minister believe that this Bill presents the opportunity to move forward with data literacy? This will be required if citizens are to assert their data rights and be able to say of their data, “It is my data and I decide to whom it goes, for what and for what remuneration”?

Finally, what is the Government’s approach to data connected to AI legislation, and when may we see at least a White Paper in that respect?

Data may be, as the Minister said, the DNA of our time, or, as other noble Lords have said, the oil; perhaps more pertinently it may be the plastic of our time, for all that that entails. The critical point is this: it offers so much potential, but not inevitability, to drive economic, social and psychological growth. We need to enable and empower all our citizens to be able to say, full-throatedly, “Our data; our decisions; our human-led digital futures”.

Future of the Post Office

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point and I hope that that can be included in the Green Paper as one aspect of this. I reiterate that we see a future for community hubs. It may be that we need fixed premises for that to work in practice, rather than for it to be something that just visits. For more isolated communities, that may well be a solution. Whatever happens, we want to guarantee to all communities in the UK that they will be able to access a post office to do the business that they need to do in order to access public services, driving licences and all the things we were talking about earlier. They will need to have some form of post office within easy reach. That is certainly one way of looking at it.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my financial services and technology interests, as set out in the register. Would the Minister agree that the country is suffering from an epidemic of financial exclusion and digital exclusion, with the two often walking painfully hand in hand? Would not the golden principles of financial inclusion and digital inclusion be two excellent elements on which to fund the Post Office going forward?

Would she also agree that a significant part of the difficulties experienced by sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses was that computer evidence was taken almost on the nod? Would she agree that it is high time we reversed the burden of proof with computer evidence to what it was pre changing it to this iniquitous position?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I think we have all learned the lesson from the Horizon scandal that you cannot assume that the computer is always right. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that we need to be much more sceptical when presented with that kind of evidence in future.

On digital exclusion, the noble Lord is absolutely right. It is a huge issue for the Government and we are taking it very seriously. A huge piece of work is going on around this. Obviously, our ambition is to make sure that everybody has the skills and capacity to go online and access services, because it is to their benefit; it makes their life easier. The proposals we have—for example, the Government’s One Login service, will always have the option for individuals to go in person to a post office to access those services as an alternative. We will make sure that people are not excluded. But the real challenge relates to the discussion we were having earlier with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about education and skills; it is our intention to make sure that people have the skills, education, capacity and equipment to go online and have all the advantages that the digital world will offer them.

Generative AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are clear that copyright law must be respected when content is used to train AI models. If copies are made of protected work, licences must be required from the copyright owner unless a specific copyright exception applies. The problem is that the law does not yet apply equally to generative AI models, and that is the issue we are grappling with. Our view is that this should not necessarily be left to the law; unfortunately, it takes a long time for these legal cases to be resolved. We are trying to find a way forward that will be fair to everybody but that does not require the long legislative process that I know the noble Earl is all too aware of.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register. Does the Minister agree that this is not just a question of fairness? We must have a respected, remunerated, consented, dynamic licensing market for IP and copyrighted works for both the benefit of IP and creatives and for a flourishing AI market in the UK.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is quite right: we have to find a way forward that reflects the importance of both these sectors to our economy. The creative industries are one of the UK’s most powerful economic activities, worth £124 billion in GVA at the moment, so they are hugely important. We know that we have to respect the creative sector and the journalists working in it, but equally, we know that the future will be about an enhanced AI system. More and more businesses in the UK are now using AI, so that is the way forward and we have to find a way through this, but there is not a simple answer. I assure noble Lords that my colleagues, particularly Chris Bryant and Feryal Clark, are very aware of this issue. It has to be resolved but we would just ask for a little bit more space to allow us to make some progress.

Watchdogs (Industry and Regulators Committee Report)

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on his excellent introduction to the debate and thank him and the committee for an excellent report that covers so much ground in such clarity and detail. “Who watches the watchdogs?” has been the cry over centuries of human societies, and it is never more applicable than today with the proliferation of regulators covering all aspects of our economy and society. Performance, independence and accountability are exactly the three points on any tripod to get into the issues surrounding how in the UK we regulate in the 21st century. The recommendations are clear, achievable and relevant, and I agree with all of them.

The themes running through the report are equally clear. There is a sense that it is as good as pointless—worse, harmful—simply to add more statutory objectives to regulators in the belief that this would impact performance and produce a better result for the market or consumers. Similarly, some regulators are able to fund themselves through levies and fees, and others have to go with their hand out to government. That financial structure must impact on the way that they operate, through no fault of their own.

The cry I hear running through the whole report is for clarity, consistency and coherence across the regulatory landscape. I agree entirely. This is never clearer than when we come to artificial intelligence where, currently, there is no regulator. The previous Government had the inadequate approach of writing a letter to all regulators to ask them what they intended to do when it comes to artificial intelligence. Will the Minister say what this Government’s approach will be to get the right regulatory framework for AI? I would certainly like to see an AI authority to review many of the provisions in my AI Private Member’s Bill, and I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, for his kind words about it.

When I say an AI authority, I do not mean a behemothic regulator covering all aspects of AI; I mean a right-sized, agile, nimble and, crucially, horizontally-focused regulator to look across all the existing regulators to assess their competence, address the issues, challenges and opportunities of AI and identify the gaps where currently there is no recourse. For example, in recruitment, if you find yourself on the wrong end of a recruitment decision, often without even knowing that AI was in the mix, there is currently nowhere in the regulatory landscape to seek redress. Similarly, we need an AI authority to be the custodian of the principles we want to see, not just for the right-size regulation of AI, but going further than that with an ability to transform the way we regulate across the whole of our economy and society and to look at all legislation to address its competence to address the challenges and opportunities of AI.

Will the Minister say where the Government currently are with the regulatory innovation office? What will be the scope? How will it be funded? What will be its first tasks? Does she agree that it is high time that we had an AI authority if we are to gain all the economic, social and psychological advantages and benefits of AI while being wholly conscious and competent to address all the risks and challenges? I suggest that if we had such an AI authority, it would have not just a positive impact on how we go about regulating AI but could improve how we go about regulation and regulators across the piece, not just positively impacting AI, not just asking the question “Who watches the watchdog?”, but enabling those watchdogs to be more, enabling them to be guard dogs and to be guide dogs, and, crucially, if the guard dog and the guide dog fail, empowering them to show their teeth.

Lithium-ion Battery Safety Bill [HL]

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 6th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this Second Reading and to follow the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, on his Bill and on the impact that it has already had on the new Government. It means that, unusually for a Second Reading, I can indulge in more questions to the Minister than may otherwise be the case.

It is clear that we cannot turn our energy system green and we cannot reach net zero without batteries. The questions are what batteries and with what chemistry within them, and around how they are constructed, controlled and deployed. That goes to the heart of the noble Lord’s Bill, which I support and wish well on its journey. It seems it may have a longer and more winding journey—or perhaps shorter and more winding—than other Private Members’ Bills.

I have a number of questions for the Minister, not least on the Product Regulation and Metrology Bill, which encompasses much of the noble Lord’s principles in his Private Member’s Bill. First, would it be a good idea to have a complete prohibition on charging any of these batteries, whatever device they are in, in any hallway or common parts of shared dwellings?

Secondly, are the current sanctions against those who manufacture and produce batteries that are not of the requisite standard and quality at an appropriate level? I am also interested to hear what representations the Government have had from our courageous firefighters on what is happening out there? Do we have a clear picture of the number of fires caused by lithium-ion batteries? Do we have that mapping exercise and is it clearly understood? What do the Government need to do to support our firefighters to face different challenges? There will be an exponential increase in the number of these batteries, not just on our person but moving around on small, large and mega mobility devices. What is the Government’s plan to control and effectively deal with these devices when, in tragic and horrific situations, they go wrong?

Looking broader than the Bill, it is clear that the Government need an overall battery strategy. We saw issues with Britishvolt in the north-east, so I am interested to hear from the Minister about the Government’s current strategy for battery use and development, and to get the UK to the level of battery manufacture that it requires to deliver on net zero and our mobility needs.

I refer the Minister to a report on this issue of the Science and Technology Committee, on which I was involved, a couple of years ago, called Battery Strategy Goes Flat. I cannot claim to have been the author of the title but, as it referred to the previous Government, perhaps the Minister can tell us the current Government’s strategy for the battery needs of the country.

Similarly, what level of investment is going into developing and understanding not just current battery technologies but—as the debate already referred to—all the new technologies coming on stream and very nascent technologies that are likely to form a large part of our battery need in a short time? All have potential, but allied to potential risks that need to be understood and legislated for.

Finally, on the future, what is the Government’s grand vision for the role of batteries and fuel cells across our economy and society, so that we have a safe, positive transition to green energy, to mobility for all in an inclusive manner, and a situation where the chemistry and science are fully understood so that, most importantly, we can all go about our business safely. I wish the Bill well and look forward to seeing how it interacts with the product safety Bill to put the country in a far better situation for the generation and storage of energy, and, crucially, our safety.

AI Technology Regulations

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question and for all the work he has done on the AI issue, including his new book, which I am sure is essential reading over the summer for everybody. I should say that several noble Lords in this Chamber have written books on AI, so noble Lords might want to consider that for their holiday reading.

The noble Lord will know that the use and regulation of live facial recognition is for each country to decide. We already have some regulations about it, but it is already governed by data protection, equality and human rights legislation, supplemented by specific police guidance. It is absolutely vital that its use is only when it is necessary, proportionate and fair. We will continue to look at the legislation and at whether privacy is being sufficiently protected. That is an issue that will come forward when the future legislation is being prepared.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, would the Minister agree that the way to regulate AI is principles-based, outcomes-focused and input-understood, and always, where appropriate, remunerated? To that end, what is the Government’s plan to support our creative industries—the musicians, writers and artists who make such a contribution to our economy, society and well-being, and whose IP and copyright are currently being swallowed up by gen AI, with no respect, no consent and no remuneration? Surely it is time to legislate.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a really important point here and again I acknowledge his expertise on this issue. It is a complex and challenging area and we understand the importance of it. I can assure the noble Lord that it remains a priority for this Government and that we are determined to make meaningful progress in this area. We believe in both human-centred creativity and the potential of AI to open new creative frontiers. Finding the right balance between innovation and protection for those creators and for the ongoing viability of the creative industries will require thoughtful engagement and consultation. That is one of the things we will do when we consult on the new legislation.