Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I have in subsequent groups a number of amendments that touch on many of the issues that are raised here, so I will not detain the Committee by going through them at this stage and repeating them later. However, I feel that, although the Government have had the best intentions in bringing forward a set of proposals in this area that were to update and to bring together rather conflicting and difficult pieces of legislation that have been left because of the Brexit arrangements, they have managed to open up a gap between where we want to be and where we will be if the Bill goes forward in its present form. I say that in relation to AI, which is a subject requiring a lot more attention and a lot more detail than we have before us. I doubt very much whether the Government will have the appetite for dealing with that in time for this Bill, but I hope that at the very least—it would be a minor concession at this stage—they will commit at the Dispatch Box to seeking to resolve these issues in the legislation within a very short period because, as we have heard from the arguments made today, it is desperately needed.

More importantly, if, by bringing together documentation that is thought to represent the current situation, either inadvertently or otherwise, the Government have managed to open up a loophole that will devalue the way in which we currently treat personal data—I will come on to this when I get to my groups in relation to the NHS in particular—that would be a grievous situation. I hope that, going forward, the points that have been made here can be accommodated in a statement that will resolve them, because they need to be resolved.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in today’s Committee proceedings. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register, not least as adviser to Socially Recruited, an AI business.

I support the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, in his amendments and all the other amendments in this group. They were understandably popular, to the extent that when I got my pen out, there was no space left for me to co-sign them, so I was left with the oral tradition in which to reflect my support for them. Before going into the detail, I just say that we have had three data Bills in just over three years: DPDI, DISD and this Bill. Over that period, though the names have changed, much of the meat remains the same in the legislation. Yet, in that period, everything and nothing haschanged —everything in terms of what has happened with generative AI.

Considering that seismic shift that has occurred over these three Bills, could the Minister say what in this Bill specifically has changed, not least in this part, to reflect that seismic change? Regarding “nothing has changed”, nothing has changed in terms of the incredibly powerful potential of AI for positive or negative outcomes, ably demonstrated with this set of amendments.

If you went on to Main Street and polled the public, I believe that you would get a pretty clear understanding of what they considered scientific research to be. You know it. You understand why we would want to have a specified definition of scientific research and what that would mean for the researchers and for the country.

However, if we are to draw that definition as broadly as it currently is in the Bill, why would we bother to have such a definition at all? If the Government’s intention is to enable so much to come within the perimeter, let us not have the definition at all and let us allow to continue what is happening right now, not least in the reuse of scrape data or in how data is being treated in these generative AI models.

We have seen what has happened in terms of the training, but when you look at what could be called development and improvement, as the noble Viscount has rightly pointed out, all this and more could easily fit within the scientific research definition. It could even more easily fit in when lawyers are deployed to ensure that that is so. I know we are going to come on to rehearsing a number of these subjects in the next group but, for this group, I support all the amendments as set out.

I ask the Minister these two questions. First, what has changed in all the provisions that have gone through all these three iterations of the data Bill? Secondly, what is the Government’s intention when it comes to scientific research, if it is not truly to mean scientific research, if it is not to have ethics committee involvement and if it is not to feel sound and be defined as what most people on Main Street would recognise as scientific research?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I start by apologising because, due to a prior commitment, I am not able to stay for many of the proceedings today, but I see these groupings and others as critical. In the few words that I will say, I hope to bring to bear to this area some of my experience as a Health Minister, particularly in charge of technology and development of AI.

I can see a lot of good intent behind these clauses, to make sure that we do not stop a lot of the research that we need. I was recently very much involved in the negotiation of the pandemic accord regarding the next pandemic and how you make sure that any vaccines that you develop on a worldwide basis can be distributed on a worldwide basis as well. One of the main stumbling blocks was that the so-called poorer countries were trying to demand, as part of that, the intellectual property to be able to develop the vaccines in their own countries.

The point we were trying to make was that, although we could see the good intentions behind that, it would have a real chilling effect on pharmaceutical companies investing the hundreds of millions or even billions of pounds, which you often need with vaccines, to find a cure, because if they felt that they were going to lose their intellectual property and rights at the end, it would be much harder for them to justify the investment up front.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I advise the Committee that, if this amendment is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 61 by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate on these amendments. I very much support Amendment 60 as introduced. I was delighted to hear the Minister tell the Grand Committee that the Government are coming forward with an AI Bill. I wonder if I might tempt her into sharing a bit more detail with your Lordships on when we might see that Bill or indeed the consultation. Will it be before Santa or sometime after his welcome appearance later this month?

We touched on a number of areas related to Amendment 65A in the previous group. This demonstrates the importance of and concern about Clause 67, as so many amendments pertain to it. I ask the Minister whether a large language model that comes up with medically significant conclusions but, prior to that, gained a considerable amount of that data from scraping, would be fine within Clause 67 as drafted.

Similarly, there are overriding and broader reuse possibilities from the drafting as set out. Again, as has already been debated, scientific research has a clear meaning in many respects. That clarity very much comes when you add public interest and ethics. Could a model that has taken vast quantities of others’ data without consent and—nodding more towards Amendment 60 —without remuneration and consent still potentially fit within the definition of “scientific research”?

In many ways, we are debating these points around data in the context of scientific research, but we could go to the very nub or essence of the issue. All that noble Lords are asking, in their many eloquent and excellent ways, is whose data is it, to what purpose is it being put and have those data owners been consented, respected and, where appropriate—particularly when it comes to IP and copyrighted data—remunerated? This is an excellent opportunity to expand on the earlier debate on Clause 67. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 71 and others in this group from the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Stevenson. I apologise for not being able to speak at Second Reading. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will remember that we took a deep interest in this issue when I was a Health Minister and the conversations that we had.

I had a concern at the time. We all know that the NHS needs to be digitised and that relevant health professionals need to be able to access relevant data when they need to, so that there is no need to be stuck with one doctor when you go to another part of the country. There are so many efficiencies that we could have in the system, as long as they are accessed by relevant and appropriate health professionals at the right time. But it is also important that patients have confidence in the system and that their personal data cannot be shared with commercial organisations without them knowing. As other noble Lords have said, this is an issue of trust.

For that reason, when I was in that position, I reached out to civil liberties organisations to understand their concerns. For example, medConfidential was very helpful and had conversations with DHSC and NHS officials. In fact, after those conversations, officials told me that its demands were reasonable and that some of the things being asked for were not that difficult to give and common sense.

I asked a Written Question of the noble Baroness’s ministerial colleague, the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, about whether patients will be informed of who has had access to their patient record, because that is important for confidence. The Answer I got back was that the Government were proposing a single unified health record. We all know that. She said that:

“Ensuring that patients’ confidential information remains protected and is seen only by those who need to see it will be a priority. Public engagement next month will help us understand what safeguards patients would want to see”.


Surely the fact that patients have opted out shows that they already have concerns and have raised them.

The NHS can build the best data system—or the federated data platform, as it is called—but without patient confidence it is simply a castle made of sand. As one of my heroes, Jimi Hendrix, once said, castles made of sand fall into the sea eventually. We do not want to see that with the federated data platform. We want to see a modernised system of healthcare digital records, allowing joined-up thinking on health and care right across a patient’s life. We should be able to use machine learning to analyse those valuable datasets to improve preventive care. But, for that to happen, the key has to be trust and patients being confident that their data is secure and used in the appropriate way. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I support these amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones. It is a pleasure to follow the second ex-Health Minister this afternoon. In many ways, the arguments are just the same for health data as they are for all data. It is just that, understandably, it is at the sharpest end of this debate. Probably the most important point for everybody to realise, although it is espoused so often, is that there is no such thing as NHS data. It is a collection of the data of every citizen in this country, and it matters. Public trust matters significantly for all data but for health data in particular, because it goes so close to our identity—our very being.

Yet we know how to do public trust in this country. We know how to engage and have had significant success in public engagement decades ago. What we could do now with human-led technology-supported public engagement could be on such a positive and transformational scale. But, so far, there has been so little on this front. Let us not talk of NHS data; let us always come back to the fundamental principle encapsulated in this group of amendments and across so many of our discussions on the Bill. Does the Minister agree that it is about not NHS data but our data—our decisions—and, through that, if we get it right, our human-led digital futures?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Many thanks to all noble Lords who have proposed and supported these amendments. I will speak to just a few of them.

Amendment 70 looks to mitigate the lowering of the consent threshold for scientific research. As I have set out on previous groups, I too have concerns about that consent threshold. However, for me the issue is more with the definition of scientific research than with the consent threshold, so I am not yet confident that the amendment is the right way to achieve those desirable aims.

Amendment 71 would require that no NHS personal data can be made available for scientific research without the explicit consent of the patient. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Clement-Jones, for raising this because it is such an important matter. While we will discuss this under other levels, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, points out, it is such an important thing and we need to get it right.

I regret to advise my noble friend Lord Holmes that I was going to start my next sentence with the words “Our NHS data”, but I will not. The data previously referred to is a very significant and globally unique national asset, comprising many decades of population-wide, cradle-to-grave medical data. No equivalent at anything like the same scale or richness exists anywhere, which makes it incredibly valuable. I thank my noble friend Lord Kamall for stressing this point with, as ever, the help of Jimi Hendrix.

However, that data is valuable only to the extent that it can be safely exploited for research and development purposes. The data can collectively help us develop new medicines or improve the administration and productivity of the NHS, but we need to allow it to do so properly. I am concerned that this amendment, if enacted, would create too high an operational and administrative barrier to the safe exploitation of this data. I have no interest in compromising on the safety, but we have to find a more efficient and effective way of doing it.

Amendments 79, 81 and 131 all look to clarify that the definition of consent to be used is in line with the definition in Article 4.11 of the UK GDPR:

“‘consent’ of the data subject means any freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s wishes by which he or she, by a statement or by a clear affirmative action, signifies agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her”.

This amendment would continue the use of a definition that is well understood. However, paragraph 3(a) of new Article 8A appears sufficient, in that the purpose for which a data subject consents is “specified, explicit and legitimate”.

Finally, with respect to Clause 77 stand part, I take the point and believe that we will be spending a lot of time on these matters going forward. But, on balance and for the time being, I feel that this clause needs to remain, as there must be clear rules on what information should be provided to data subjects. We should leave it in for now, although we will no doubt be looking to polish it considerably.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this Second Reading debate. I thank the Minister for the way she introduced the Bill. I declare my interests as set out in the register, particularly those in technology and financial services: as an adviser to Ecospend, an open banking technology, and to Socially Recruited, an AI business.

It is a pleasure to take part in a Second Reading for the third time on one Bill with three different names. We should all feel grateful that the only word to survive in all those titles is “data”, which must be a good thing. It is also a pleasure to follow so many excellent speeches, to which I find myself simply saying “Yes, agree, agree”, in particular the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who pointed to some of the most extreme and urgent issues that we must address in data. I also support the concept from the noble Lord, Lord Knight, of the Government laying out their overall approach to all new technologies and issues around data so that we have a road map, suite, menu or whatever of everything they intend in the coming months and years, so that we can have clarity and try to enable consistency through all these Bills and statutory measures, which cover so much of our economy and society. As this is the third Second Reading for one Bill, I will cover three issues: smart data, automated decisions and the use of data in training AI.

On smart data, perhaps it would be better for the public if we called it “smart uses of data”. As has been mentioned, open banking is currently the only smart use of data. Perhaps one of the reasons why it has not been mainstreamed or got to a critical level in our society is the brand and rollout of open banking. We should all be rightly proud of the concept’s success— made in the UK and replicated in over 60 jurisdictions around the world, many of which have gone much further than us in a much shorter time. It demonstrates that we know how to do right-sized regulation and shows that we know how to regulate for innovation, consumer protection and citizens’ rights. Yet we are doing so little of this legislation and regulation.

It is one thing to pass that willed regulatory intervention; perhaps the Government and other entities did not do anywhere near enough promotion of the opportunities and possibilities of open banking. If you polled people on main street about open banking, I imagine they would say “I have no idea what you’re talking about; they’ve closed all the branches”. This goes to the heart of the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. Without a coherent narrative, explained, communicated and connected across our society, it is hardly surprising that we have not only this level of take-up of open banking but this level of connection to all the opportunities around these new technologies.

The opportunities are immense, as set out in this Bill. The extension of smart data into areas such as energy provision could be truly transformational for citizens and bill payers. What is the Government’s plan to communicate these opportunities on the passage of this Bill to make all bill payers, citizens and consumers aware of the opportunities that these smart data, smart energy and smart savings provisions may bring to them?

Secondly, as has rightly and understandably been mentioned by noble Lords, the Bill proposes a significant and material change to automated decision-making. It could be argued that one of the impacts of gen AI has been to cause a tidal wave of automated decisions, not least in recruitment and employment. Somebody may find themselves on the wrong end of a shortlisting decision for a role: an automated decision where the individual did not even know that AI was in the mix. I suggest that that makes as clear a case as any for the need to label all goods and products in which AI is involved.

The Bill seeks to take Article 22 and turn it into what we see in Clause 80. Would the Minister not agree that Clause 80 is largely saying, “It’s over to you, pal”? How can somebody effectively assert their right if they do not even know that AI and automated decision-making were in the mix at the time? Would the Minister not agree that, at the very least, there must be a right for an individual to have a personalised decision to understand what was at play, with some potential for redress if so sought?

Thirdly, on the use of data in training AI, where is the Bill on this most critical point? Our creatives add billions to the UK economy and they enrich our society. They lift our souls, making music where otherwise there may be silence, filling in the blank page with words that change our lives and pictures that elevate the human condition. Yet right now, we allow their works to be purloined without consent, respect or remuneration. What does the Bill do for our creative community, a section of the economy growing at twice the rate of the rest of it?

More broadly, why is the Bill silent when it comes to artificial intelligence, impacting as it does so many elements of our economy, society and individuals’ lives right now? If we are not doing AI in this Bill, when will we be? What are we waiting to know that we do not already know to make a decent effort at AI legislation and regulation?

The danger is that, with so much running through the Bill, if we do not engender a connection with the public then there will be no trust. No matter how much potential there is in these rich datasets and potential models to transform our health, education, mobility and so much more, none of it will come to anything if there is not public trust. I guess we should not be so surprised that, while we all enjoy “Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light” every Sunday evening, there is more than a degree of Henry VIII spattered through this Bill as a whole.

I move to some final questions. What is the Government’s position when it comes to the reversal of the burden of proof in computer evidence? We may need to modernise the situation pre-1999, but it should certainly be the case that that evidence is put to proof. We cannot continue with the situation so shamefully and shockingly set out in the Horizon situation, as rightly set out by my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot, who has done more than any in that area.

Similarly, on the Bill in its entirety, has the “I” of GenAI been passed over in the Bill as currently constructed? So many of the clauses and so much of the wording were put together before the arrival of GenAI. Is there not a sense that there is a need for renewal throughout the Bill, with so many clauses at least creaking as a consequence of the arrival of GenAI?

Will the Government consider updating the Computer Misuse Act, legislation which came into being before we had any of this modern AI or modern computing? Will they at least look at a statutory defence for our cyber community, who do so much to keep us all safe but, for want of a statutory defence, have to do so much of that with at least one hand tied behind their back?

Does the Minister believe that this Bill presents the opportunity to move forward with data literacy? This will be required if citizens are to assert their data rights and be able to say of their data, “It is my data and I decide to whom it goes, for what and for what remuneration”?

Finally, what is the Government’s approach to data connected to AI legislation, and when may we see at least a White Paper in that respect?

Data may be, as the Minister said, the DNA of our time, or, as other noble Lords have said, the oil; perhaps more pertinently it may be the plastic of our time, for all that that entails. The critical point is this: it offers so much potential, but not inevitability, to drive economic, social and psychological growth. We need to enable and empower all our citizens to be able to say, full-throatedly, “Our data; our decisions; our human-led digital futures”.

Future of the Post Office

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point and I hope that that can be included in the Green Paper as one aspect of this. I reiterate that we see a future for community hubs. It may be that we need fixed premises for that to work in practice, rather than for it to be something that just visits. For more isolated communities, that may well be a solution. Whatever happens, we want to guarantee to all communities in the UK that they will be able to access a post office to do the business that they need to do in order to access public services, driving licences and all the things we were talking about earlier. They will need to have some form of post office within easy reach. That is certainly one way of looking at it.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my financial services and technology interests, as set out in the register. Would the Minister agree that the country is suffering from an epidemic of financial exclusion and digital exclusion, with the two often walking painfully hand in hand? Would not the golden principles of financial inclusion and digital inclusion be two excellent elements on which to fund the Post Office going forward?

Would she also agree that a significant part of the difficulties experienced by sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses was that computer evidence was taken almost on the nod? Would she agree that it is high time we reversed the burden of proof with computer evidence to what it was pre changing it to this iniquitous position?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I think we have all learned the lesson from the Horizon scandal that you cannot assume that the computer is always right. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that we need to be much more sceptical when presented with that kind of evidence in future.

On digital exclusion, the noble Lord is absolutely right. It is a huge issue for the Government and we are taking it very seriously. A huge piece of work is going on around this. Obviously, our ambition is to make sure that everybody has the skills and capacity to go online and access services, because it is to their benefit; it makes their life easier. The proposals we have—for example, the Government’s One Login service, will always have the option for individuals to go in person to a post office to access those services as an alternative. We will make sure that people are not excluded. But the real challenge relates to the discussion we were having earlier with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about education and skills; it is our intention to make sure that people have the skills, education, capacity and equipment to go online and have all the advantages that the digital world will offer them.

Generative AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are clear that copyright law must be respected when content is used to train AI models. If copies are made of protected work, licences must be required from the copyright owner unless a specific copyright exception applies. The problem is that the law does not yet apply equally to generative AI models, and that is the issue we are grappling with. Our view is that this should not necessarily be left to the law; unfortunately, it takes a long time for these legal cases to be resolved. We are trying to find a way forward that will be fair to everybody but that does not require the long legislative process that I know the noble Earl is all too aware of.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register. Does the Minister agree that this is not just a question of fairness? We must have a respected, remunerated, consented, dynamic licensing market for IP and copyrighted works for both the benefit of IP and creatives and for a flourishing AI market in the UK.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is quite right: we have to find a way forward that reflects the importance of both these sectors to our economy. The creative industries are one of the UK’s most powerful economic activities, worth £124 billion in GVA at the moment, so they are hugely important. We know that we have to respect the creative sector and the journalists working in it, but equally, we know that the future will be about an enhanced AI system. More and more businesses in the UK are now using AI, so that is the way forward and we have to find a way through this, but there is not a simple answer. I assure noble Lords that my colleagues, particularly Chris Bryant and Feryal Clark, are very aware of this issue. It has to be resolved but we would just ask for a little bit more space to allow us to make some progress.

Watchdogs (Industry and Regulators Committee Report)

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on his excellent introduction to the debate and thank him and the committee for an excellent report that covers so much ground in such clarity and detail. “Who watches the watchdogs?” has been the cry over centuries of human societies, and it is never more applicable than today with the proliferation of regulators covering all aspects of our economy and society. Performance, independence and accountability are exactly the three points on any tripod to get into the issues surrounding how in the UK we regulate in the 21st century. The recommendations are clear, achievable and relevant, and I agree with all of them.

The themes running through the report are equally clear. There is a sense that it is as good as pointless—worse, harmful—simply to add more statutory objectives to regulators in the belief that this would impact performance and produce a better result for the market or consumers. Similarly, some regulators are able to fund themselves through levies and fees, and others have to go with their hand out to government. That financial structure must impact on the way that they operate, through no fault of their own.

The cry I hear running through the whole report is for clarity, consistency and coherence across the regulatory landscape. I agree entirely. This is never clearer than when we come to artificial intelligence where, currently, there is no regulator. The previous Government had the inadequate approach of writing a letter to all regulators to ask them what they intended to do when it comes to artificial intelligence. Will the Minister say what this Government’s approach will be to get the right regulatory framework for AI? I would certainly like to see an AI authority to review many of the provisions in my AI Private Member’s Bill, and I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, for his kind words about it.

When I say an AI authority, I do not mean a behemothic regulator covering all aspects of AI; I mean a right-sized, agile, nimble and, crucially, horizontally-focused regulator to look across all the existing regulators to assess their competence, address the issues, challenges and opportunities of AI and identify the gaps where currently there is no recourse. For example, in recruitment, if you find yourself on the wrong end of a recruitment decision, often without even knowing that AI was in the mix, there is currently nowhere in the regulatory landscape to seek redress. Similarly, we need an AI authority to be the custodian of the principles we want to see, not just for the right-size regulation of AI, but going further than that with an ability to transform the way we regulate across the whole of our economy and society and to look at all legislation to address its competence to address the challenges and opportunities of AI.

Will the Minister say where the Government currently are with the regulatory innovation office? What will be the scope? How will it be funded? What will be its first tasks? Does she agree that it is high time that we had an AI authority if we are to gain all the economic, social and psychological advantages and benefits of AI while being wholly conscious and competent to address all the risks and challenges? I suggest that if we had such an AI authority, it would have not just a positive impact on how we go about regulating AI but could improve how we go about regulation and regulators across the piece, not just positively impacting AI, not just asking the question “Who watches the watchdog?”, but enabling those watchdogs to be more, enabling them to be guard dogs and to be guide dogs, and, crucially, if the guard dog and the guide dog fail, empowering them to show their teeth.

Lithium-ion Battery Safety Bill [HL]

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 6th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this Second Reading and to follow the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, on his Bill and on the impact that it has already had on the new Government. It means that, unusually for a Second Reading, I can indulge in more questions to the Minister than may otherwise be the case.

It is clear that we cannot turn our energy system green and we cannot reach net zero without batteries. The questions are what batteries and with what chemistry within them, and around how they are constructed, controlled and deployed. That goes to the heart of the noble Lord’s Bill, which I support and wish well on its journey. It seems it may have a longer and more winding journey—or perhaps shorter and more winding—than other Private Members’ Bills.

I have a number of questions for the Minister, not least on the Product Regulation and Metrology Bill, which encompasses much of the noble Lord’s principles in his Private Member’s Bill. First, would it be a good idea to have a complete prohibition on charging any of these batteries, whatever device they are in, in any hallway or common parts of shared dwellings?

Secondly, are the current sanctions against those who manufacture and produce batteries that are not of the requisite standard and quality at an appropriate level? I am also interested to hear what representations the Government have had from our courageous firefighters on what is happening out there? Do we have a clear picture of the number of fires caused by lithium-ion batteries? Do we have that mapping exercise and is it clearly understood? What do the Government need to do to support our firefighters to face different challenges? There will be an exponential increase in the number of these batteries, not just on our person but moving around on small, large and mega mobility devices. What is the Government’s plan to control and effectively deal with these devices when, in tragic and horrific situations, they go wrong?

Looking broader than the Bill, it is clear that the Government need an overall battery strategy. We saw issues with Britishvolt in the north-east, so I am interested to hear from the Minister about the Government’s current strategy for battery use and development, and to get the UK to the level of battery manufacture that it requires to deliver on net zero and our mobility needs.

I refer the Minister to a report on this issue of the Science and Technology Committee, on which I was involved, a couple of years ago, called Battery Strategy Goes Flat. I cannot claim to have been the author of the title but, as it referred to the previous Government, perhaps the Minister can tell us the current Government’s strategy for the battery needs of the country.

Similarly, what level of investment is going into developing and understanding not just current battery technologies but—as the debate already referred to—all the new technologies coming on stream and very nascent technologies that are likely to form a large part of our battery need in a short time? All have potential, but allied to potential risks that need to be understood and legislated for.

Finally, on the future, what is the Government’s grand vision for the role of batteries and fuel cells across our economy and society, so that we have a safe, positive transition to green energy, to mobility for all in an inclusive manner, and a situation where the chemistry and science are fully understood so that, most importantly, we can all go about our business safely. I wish the Bill well and look forward to seeing how it interacts with the product safety Bill to put the country in a far better situation for the generation and storage of energy, and, crucially, our safety.

AI Technology Regulations

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question and for all the work he has done on the AI issue, including his new book, which I am sure is essential reading over the summer for everybody. I should say that several noble Lords in this Chamber have written books on AI, so noble Lords might want to consider that for their holiday reading.

The noble Lord will know that the use and regulation of live facial recognition is for each country to decide. We already have some regulations about it, but it is already governed by data protection, equality and human rights legislation, supplemented by specific police guidance. It is absolutely vital that its use is only when it is necessary, proportionate and fair. We will continue to look at the legislation and at whether privacy is being sufficiently protected. That is an issue that will come forward when the future legislation is being prepared.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, would the Minister agree that the way to regulate AI is principles-based, outcomes-focused and input-understood, and always, where appropriate, remunerated? To that end, what is the Government’s plan to support our creative industries—the musicians, writers and artists who make such a contribution to our economy, society and well-being, and whose IP and copyright are currently being swallowed up by gen AI, with no respect, no consent and no remuneration? Surely it is time to legislate.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a really important point here and again I acknowledge his expertise on this issue. It is a complex and challenging area and we understand the importance of it. I can assure the noble Lord that it remains a priority for this Government and that we are determined to make meaningful progress in this area. We believe in both human-centred creativity and the potential of AI to open new creative frontiers. Finding the right balance between innovation and protection for those creators and for the ongoing viability of the creative industries will require thoughtful engagement and consultation. That is one of the things we will do when we consult on the new legislation.

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 13th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a sober and serious Second Reading—understandably so. How does one even begin to find the words to describe such an unspeakable set of circumstances? Perhaps one pulls on the words of those who have been faced with many miscarriages of justice: the CCRC itself described this as

“the most widespread miscarriage of justice”

it had seen. It is for that reason at least that I support this legislation.

I am well aware, and completely supportive, of the separation of powers, and the fine and delicate balance of our unwritten constitution, but in passing this legislation, it is as clear as it can be that Parliament will be carrying out the will of the people. It is also clear that this will set a precedent. I am delicately untroubled by that, because it sets a precedent for a set of circumstances where, were they to occur again, it may well be the case that the will of the people and Parliament need to step in. It is that set of circumstances which—I say delicately and with respect—argue against the claims that this tends towards autocracy and totalitarianism.

This is not something that any of us are undertaking lightly, but it is a means of securing justice for those who have waited far too long, many serving prison sentences and all carrying the sentence of having been convicted, often for decades. This is why I believe Parliament is right to take this Bill through, to enable justice around in the most timely manner. It is difficult to even call it “timely”, bearing in mind how long this has already taken.

To ensure justice and equity for all those who have suffered for so long, I need to ask my noble friend the Minister: how can the Government act to ensure that justice for all happens on a similar, if not identical, timeline? How can the Government, while understanding the reserved nature of the Post Office and the devolved nature of justice, work even more with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that all postmistresses and postmasters in Scotland can achieve justice at the same time or in a similar timeframe to those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

Similarly, as other noble Lords have rightly stated, it seems inequitable for those who have already been to the Court of Appeal to be excluded from this legislation. They are effectively being punished for having been able to pursue their claims quickly and effectively, only to find themselves receiving no remedy and the outcome that the court, at that stage and on the evidence provided, delivered for them. We know that justice delayed is justice denied. We have the opportunity to at least bring justice through the legislative process—yes, it is novel and unprecedented—through this Bill.

I turn to the means by which the private prosecutions were brought about in the first place: Section 6(1) of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985. Many members of the public were shocked to discover that the Post Office could pursue such prosecutions in this manner. They were even more shocked when they realised that this was a power in no sense available just to the Post Office but available across the piece. The Post Office was effectively acting as investigator and prosecutor in cases where it was the alleged victim. Does my noble friend the Minister not agree that this is self-evidently prima facie problematic?

If we are to deliver justice for all those who have suffered, how many sub-postmistresses and sub-postmasters will be left with their convictions not quashed even after this legislation is passed? As much as we can be clear on the numbers, there are approaching 1,000 convictions and so far—again, as much as we can know—around 103 convictions have been quashed: 10%. This Bill, when it comes into statute, will certainly address a large number of those convictions, but how many people—to the Minister’s best knowledge, on the evidence he has available to him—will still be left unhelped after we pass this legislation?

Without moving away from the serious matter of today, I would like to ask the Minister about what thoughts the Government have put to reflecting on Section 6(1) of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985. What are the safeguards? How did they work in these instances? Are the Government satisfied to continue with this legislation in its current form? Is the Law Commission looking into this?

Similarly, looking to a potential future beyond this unprecedented set of circumstances, what are the Government’s thoughts in terms of the future of the Post Office? It is a unique entity. It has been in our communities, on most of our high streets, for over half a millennium—but 500 years-plus of history does not give any organisation any right necessarily to continue in any form. Does the Minister agree that urgent thought on the structure of the Post Office, potentially looking at mutualisation or other such models, could, at least once we are through this, enable a brighter, better Post Office?

With sub-postmistresses and sub-postmasters, the pillars of our community, knowing our communities and the business better than anybody else, would it not make sense to have their voices, past and present, involved in shaping that future? In equalities discussions, there is a useful mantra, “Nothing about us without us”. I gently suggest that that mantra should apply to considerations about the Post Office going forward, where all the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses right across the country are able to have a voice in shaping what needs to be a very different future for the Post Office.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to speak to this group of amendments, and I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for their amendments. I will first briefly address the government amendments, and the other amendments in my closing remarks.

Amendment 195 is a minor and technical amendment which aims to clarify independence requirements for trustees overseeing funds in a consumer savings scheme, strengthening safeguards against potential conflicts of interest. Trustees must have no association with the trader or interests in the trader’s assets, ensuring that funds are controlled for the benefit of savers and independently of the trader.

This measure is essential to safeguard consumer funds against insolvency and ensure that they are used for their intended purpose. I hope that noble Lords will accept this amendment. I look forward to addressing in closing any questions or points that they may have about the amendments in this group. I beg to move.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend, if not for the fact that it seems we are going backwards and forwards at the same time, which is always a good state be in. As this is the first time I have spoken on day six in Committee, I restate my technology interests, as set out in the register, as adviser to Boston Ltd.

My two amendments in this group are concerned with artificial intelligence. It is a truism, self-evident and barely in need of stating, that artificial intelligence is already impacting many aspects of our lives—as citizens, as consumers, as businesses and as a country—so it would seem timely to review all the relevant legislation to assess its competence to deal with the challenges, opportunities and risks that AI presents for us in all those roles and capacities. I shall say more on that next month.

Today, within the scope of this Bill, Amendment 199 suggests that all legislation concerned with consumer protection be reviewed to assess its competence to deal with the challenges, opportunities and risks inherent in artificial intelligence. It is clear that a number of the concepts and provisions within consumer protection legislation and regulation will be applicable and competent to deal with AI, but there is a huge gulf between what is currently set out in statute and what we require when it comes to making the best of what we could call this future now. I shall give just one example: if we consider how algorithms are set up simultaneously to push voraciously certain content while holding back other content, it is very difficult to see how consumer protection legislation is set up to deal with that challenge. That is but one specific example.

Amendment 200 goes to the question of consumer protection and the need to label all products and services where AI has been used or is built into that product or service so that the customer can know that and determine whether she or he wishes to avail herself or himself of that product or service. In no sense would this amendment require great burdens to be placed on business in bureaucracy, administration or cost. In many ways, this is yet another example of “set AI to solve an AI problem”, with human in the loop and human oversight always present.

I suggest that these two amendments, taken together, would enable the Bill to speak positively and in a timely manner on the opportunities, risks and threats to all of us, and to try to get the optimal deployment of AI in this context when it comes to consumer protection. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, we move from a very new problem to a very old problem. My Amendment 215B asks that the Government restore to us the protection we used to have from double-glazing salesmen. There used to be a cooling-off period. That got swept away by EU regulations. Now that we have Brexit, we have the opportunity to give consumers back the protection that they once had. At the moment, double-glazing can claim to be made to the consumer’s specification but, actually, it is not. It is a standard product, and you just tweak it a bit. There is plenty of room when you are providing double glazing, fitted kitchens or anything like that to allow consumers proper time to step back and ask themselves whether they want to go in for such an expense and whether it is something they really want to do. We ought to restore that to consumers, there being no good reason not to.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 5th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to Amendment 140 in my name to add some more fuel to this already well-stoked fire and to set out exactly what we mean in the Bill when we talk about good faith and indeed the lack thereof where a trader does not take into account the interests of the consumer in terms of product design or information about the product or seeks to exploit the consumer because of their biases or particular views to induce a purchase or a desire for a particular product. Amendment 140 merely adds to the excellent amendment, as already set out. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I am pleased to have added my name to Amendment 137 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, which deals with the issue of submitting or creating fake reviews by adding it to the list in Schedule 19 of commercial practices which would always be considered unfair. This is the issue that we touched on in the earlier debate. I am pleased that we have the chance to raise this today because it has been an issue of concern for some time. It is good to get the chance to debate and pursue this, and it is good to hear that the Government are also keen to do that.

We argue that this is not just about the effect fake reviews have on consumers; they affect businesses as well. They damage the livelihoods of many small traders—restaurants and hotels, for example—when their business is deliberately targeted by damaging reviews, or the local competition down the road receives glowing fake reviews which take trade away from the legitimate trader, so this has a business element as well as a consumer element. At the same time, Which? reports that the proliferation of fake reviews for online product sales results in consumers being more than twice as likely to choose poor quality products. We heard a little bit about how that works in the earlier debate.

Urgent action is undoubtedly needed to bring quality standards back into online sales and marketing so that people are not duped. As we have heard, since the amendment was tabled, the Government have produced their response to the consultation on improving price transparency and product information for consumers. It proposes that the Government will add fake reviews to the list of banned practices in Schedule 19. I am grateful to the Minister for hosting a meeting last week where we had a chance to discuss this. It is good to hear that the Government have finally decided to act on it.

However, there are still some outstanding concerns. Concerns have been raised by Trustpilot and others that the fact that the proposed wording lacks clarity. The Government saying that they will work with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to clarify the wording is a sign that they have not yet got this quite right. Can the Minister clarify the timescale for that additional work? When will we see the outcome of it?

Concern has also been raised that the Government’s proposals do not address the role played by internet service providers and social media in promoting fake reviews. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, raised this issue. What action will we take against those who host and reproduce these fake reviews, often knowingly?

Concern has been expressed that the penalty for promoting fake reviews is subject only to civil, not criminal, enforcement. Can the Minister explain a bit more about why that decision was taken? In the meantime, we argue that our Amendment 137 addresses those concerns. We look forward to further talks along the lines that the Minister has proposed, and we hope that he will agree to work with us and the Committee to produce a government amendment that is both clear and comprehensive.

The noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Holmes, helpfully sought greater clarity on consumer rights to prevent consumers being misled or manipulated. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, rightly mentioned the additional measures needed to protect us from rogue traders. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for asking a series of small but important questions around his almost probing amendments. It is important to have clarification on the record, and I hope that the Minister will be able to give it.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, helpfully raised the issue of good faith and asked how we can bring some standards back into trading and the exchange of information. Again, I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify that.

We have had a positive discussion on these important points. It is good to hear that there will be further discussion. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.