House of Lords: Size

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords—

Hereditary Peers: By-elections

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s Bill had an unopposed Second Reading on 8 September and on 23 March useful progress was made in going through the amendments. The Government are prepared to allocate yet further time for the Committee stage of the Bill—a hospitality not normally extended to a Private Member’s Bill, as the noble Lord, himself a former Chief Whip and custodian of Fridays, will know. The use to which the House puts that extra time is a matter for him and for the House.

So far as the by-election is concerned, it will contain, I suspect, the most sophisticated and discerning electorate, comprising 31 Cross-Bench hereditary Peers.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, should we not merely wish the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin of Bewdley, well, but remember that he was the grandson of one of the greatest peacetime Prime Ministers? As a strong supporter of the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, I ask that we reduce at least some of the absurdity of this by-election by allowing all Peers to vote.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend will know that that is a matter not for legislation but for the Standing Orders of the House. If the House wanted so to do, it could do that without the noble Lord’s Bill or any action by the Government. It is entirely a matter for the Standing Orders of the House, as my noble friend Lord Cope mentioned in one of our debates.

Elections: Personal Data

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord will know that the Data Protection Bill is at the moment in another place, having passed through your Lordships’ House. That Bill gives extra powers to the Information Commissioner to safeguard the integrity of our democratic process, as he indicated. For example, once the legislation is on the statute book, the maximum fine for an organisation such as Facebook would rise to £1 billion. New criminal offences are being created and the Information Commissioner is being given extra powers. As I said a moment ago, there is a dialogue with the Information Commissioner and if at any point she feels that she needs additional powers, over and above those in the current legislation, we are more than ready to consider them.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, how many desk officers are dealing with this problem?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

Quite a few!

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I can quote Hansard in a different sense, but that is not the important point for today’s discussion. As my noble friend Lord Steel has pointed out, everybody in your Lordships’ House, including some of the most important participants in those debates, anticipated that this arrangement would last for a maximum of a couple of years—that is all.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does the noble Lord not accept that we have had the Second Reading of this Bill already? He is making a Second Reading speech. The best way that the House could be assisted now would be for my noble friend Lord Trefgarne to desist his mischief, withdraw his amendment to the Motion and get on with the amendments to the Bill.

[Lord Tyler]

I was actually speaking to the amendment to the Motion but I was diverted by my friend down the other end. The amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has promoted is upside down. The case for removing these absurdities is strengthened by the Burns committee report rather than the reverse. That is simply my point and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for bringing me back to it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Trenchard]

I thank my noble friend for his advice, but the amendment has been moved and I wish to speak to it.

[Lord Cormack]

This really is a classic case of wasting the Committee’s time. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has made it plain that he accepts the amendment and therefore no further debate needs to be had. My noble friend Lord Trenchard can doubtless read his speech against another amendment.

[Viscount Trenchard]

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has indeed accepted the amendment—

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Trenchard]

I well understand that the noble Lord is very deserving of his place. I have the highest regard and respect for his contribution to your Lordships’ House and to its proceedings. All I wish to make clear is that hereditary Peers should also be considered an independent element because they do not owe their presence or their right to sit in this House to prime ministerial patronage.

[Lord Cormack]

I am very grateful to my noble friend. Will he tell me whether he takes the Whip? Will he tell me how many times he has been moved to vote against the Government during his time here?

[Viscount Trenchard]

As my noble friend is well aware, I take the Whip. I have also voted against the Government on a number of occasions. I think the first time I voted against an amendment was in connection with the War Crimes Bill. At the time the Law Lords were present in your Lordships’ House and, as has been noted today, I also agree that your Lordships’ House has suffered from their removal. I was persuaded by the arguments put forward by several noble Lords at that time that the War Crimes Bill was an inappropriate piece of legislation. That was the first occasion on which I defied the Whip.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Trenchard]

The wording of Amendment 2 is as printed on the Marshalled List:

“Page 1, line 2, leave out subsection (1) … The House of Lords Act 1999 is amended as follows”.


Subsection (1) says:

“Section 2 of the House of Lords Act 1999 … is amended as follows”.


Does that satisfy the noble Lord?

[Lord Cormack]

I would like—

[Viscount Trenchard]

My noble friend has already interrupted me once. I would like to continue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I want to speak as a Peer appointed through the Appointments Commission. I am, as you know, a nurse, and there was huge pressure from the nursing profession to get another Member here. I know that I, like you, was extremely fortunate to be selected, and I know some really excellent nurses who were not. The 1999 Act was designed to make this House more representative of the population that it serves. It is not about being in with a party, it is about contributing to the work of the House. I am aware that several hereditary Peers contribute in an excellent manner, but why should not some of them come through the Appointments Commission and apply in that way in future?

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, we have lost sight of one important principle. The Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, does not eject any hereditary Peer from this House. We value their contribution. Despite the remarks of my noble friend Lord Trenchard, I still support the Bill. In this year of all years, as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Royal Air Force, we should all remember the enormous debt that we owe to my noble friend Lord Trenchard’s grandfather, but we really ought now to move on. This House has demonstrated in previous votes a year ago and again this morning—although I accept the strictures of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay up to a point—conclusively and absolutely that the majority of Members of your Lordships’ House support the principles of the Grocott Bill and therefore oppose this string of amendments which would destroy the Bill.

We should also have regard to the admirable Burns commission, which perfectly properly parked two questions. One was the question of Bishops and the other was the question of hereditary Peers. But at the same time, it pointed out that if we reduce the size of the House, as those of us who truly care about the House wish, the percentages would be out of joint. Therefore, what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is doing, is not against the spirit of Burns at all. Indeed, it makes the enactment of Burns—I should say the acceptance of Burns, because legislation is not needed—all the more necessary and all the easier.

I say to every hereditary Peer who is here this morning—some are not, many of whom I know strongly support the Bill—that your position is not at risk. Your contributions can continue until you are summoned to higher places or decide to retire. But this is a constructive, modest measure, which has already had overwhelming support from all parts of your Lordships’ House. Those who seek by a maverick exercise to frustrate the will of your Lordships’ House are in fact not serving it in the way they should.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

For somebody who has just been involved in an extensive filibuster on the European withdrawal Bill, I think that is a bit cool, really.

[Lord Cormack]

What is offensive is the remark just made by my noble friend. If he had been here, he would have heard that most of the speeches made on the withdrawal Bill have been brief—certainly, mine have been. I have every right, as has every Peer in this House, to speak out on issues of great moment. His slur is unmerited and, if he respects himself and the House, he really ought to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, if that is the noble Lord’s sole argument he should not have said what he did at Second Reading and he should not have used those arguments in his recent articles. He argued very firmly that the present basis of election was unfair in some aspects and rather stupid in others. We are seeking to correct that. If the noble Lord is going to absolutely set his mind against that, he should not have said what he did at Second Reading or written what he did; that is the equivalent of claptrap, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental point.

I support my argument with a few quotes from when this issue was debated in another place. I refer particularly to the comments of the then Sir Patrick Cormack, now my noble friend Lord Cormack, who said:

“I believe without equivocation … that the House of Lords will be better for the 92”.


I understand that he has changed his mind but I think he ought to explain that to the House.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I did that as the party’s Front-Bench constitutional affairs spokesman in another place, welcoming what was happening at that time. As has been made very plain by the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition in this House, no Parliament can bind its successor. We are now almost 20 years on. I would therefore ask my noble friend to reflect on what he has said.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, this is not the Bill that enables us to leave the European Union. It is the Bill that makes sure the law works when we do. Britain voted decisively in 2016 to leave the EU. Both Houses of Parliament then voted to leave the EU. Both main parties stood in the general election on a manifesto of leaving the EU, while the Liberal Democrats and Scottish nationalists, who stood on the opposite promise, lost votes and seats.

Now, the elected House of Commons has sent us this Bill almost unamended. That does not mean we cannot scrutinise and amend it, but it does mean that trying to wreck it, under the pretence of amending it, is not acceptable. If, in this gilded, crimson echo chamber of remain, this neo-Jacobite hold-out for the euro-king across the water, we indulge in wrecking this Bill, we will not stop Brexit—but we might hurt Britain. The public reaction would rightly be severe. In the part of the world I come from, in Ashington, Blyth and Cramlington, they will say—I paraphrase—“How dare that unelected panoply of panjandrums and pampered popinjays think they know better?”.

I look around this Chamber and, among those with genuine concerns about the Bill—many of whom will have listened attentively to my noble friend the Leader and her careful concessions on the SLSC and affirmative procedure—I also see people pretending to worry about democracy while trying to undermine it and pretending to want the best for the country while talking down Britain. I see people who, unlike David Cameron, refuse to admit that,

“Brexit has turned out less badly than we first thought”.

That is a quote.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

It has not happened yet.

[Viscount Ridley]

That is what David Cameron said. Remember what the Treasury forecast said in the event of a leave vote. These were its exact words:

“A vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000, GDP would be 3.6% smaller, average real wages would be lower, inflation higher, sterling weaker, house prices would be hit and public borrowing would rise compared with a vote to remain”.


That was not its worst-case scenario. Instead, we have falling unemployment, record employment, strong consumer confidence, robust GDP growth, higher real wages, modest inflation, stable house prices, booming inward investment, thriving tourism, a buoyant stock market and even sterling is back above $1.40—not far off its pre-referendum level, more’s the pity.

That is a clean sweep of failed predictions and the Treasury, in the leaked documents that we have seen today, has barely changed its models.

In August 2016, the Bank of England forecast that exports in 2017 would be down by 0.5%, despite the devaluation of sterling. In fact, they were up 8.3% year on year. Here are a few headlines from just this month alone:

“Exports put UK factories on their best run for 20 years”;


“Freight volumes through the Port of Dover have reached record levels for the fifth consecutive year”;


“UK tech sector enjoys record investment in 2017 despite Brexit”;


“UK services grow faster than forecast despite growing Brexit concern”;


“British universities boast record number of international student admissions”;


and, for the first time ever, the UK has topped the Forbes annual survey of the best countries for business.

To those who say things could have been even better, I reply that I am amazed we have not slowed more. Despite a dire dirge of doom from the diehards that people should put their heads between their legs and kiss their fundaments goodbye, British consumers and producers just keep rolling along. Good for them. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, made the sensible point that Brexit is probably not the most important thing happening. “If that’s the worst that Brexit will deliver”, he said, “I wouldn’t worry about it”.

Talk to businessmen and they are more concerned about the fourth industrial revolution, and the opportunities and threats that it brings—artificial intelligence, data processing and gene editing. I have just come from the inaugural meeting of the APPG on Blockchain. We face a thrilling century in a vibrant world. We can face it from behind the protectionist tariff walls and harmonised regulatory veils of the EU—where sluggish legislation is shaped by £1.5 billion of crony capitalist lobbying a year—or we can face it openly, adopting global standards and taking decisions that favour innovation rather than retard it. That does not mean deregulation; it means better regulation. To get there, we need as a simple exercise of democratic action, to pass this Bill, which neither gold-plates nor waters down anything.

To those noble Lords who say that the Government will get too much executive power here or there in the undergrowth of the Bill: I will listen to their arguments. I have some sympathy with them, though I wonder why they often expressed so little concern at the way EU laws were imposed on us in the biggest Henry VIII power grab of all. However, I urge them to listen to what the Government are saying in concession to these points. Some of the accusations of incoherence from this side of the House do, I admit, have force. But it is a bit rich to be lectured on incoherence by the Labour Party.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Tebbit!

Universal Credit

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 16th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I will do my best. I begin by adding my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for introducing the debate and doing so in a speech that was both powerful and elegant.

It is not just the road to hell that is paved with good intentions. I often thought of that when, as a constituency Member of Parliament, I was besieged by constituents who fell victim to another good idea, the CSA. Any Member of Parliament who remembers that knows it is difficult to get it right. I do not doubt for a moment the good intentions of those who brought in universal credit, but they have not got it right. Last week, I entertained to lunch a godson of mine, who is the vicar of two parishes in a very deprived urban area of Lancashire. We talked about some of his problems. I asked him to give me a few examples for this debate—something specific from the coalface. He has done so. He says:

“To manage the flow of clients, each person is given a day and time to sign on. They are sanctioned”—


we have heard about that already—

“if they don’t sign in, or try to sign in at a different time. In August, the DWP computer went down for about an hour. All the claimants who should have signed on during that period clearly could not do so. Each was sanctioned … About a year ago, every claimant on one particular day was sent a letter with the wrong signing-in date (the times were correct). All clients arrived at the correct time but one day late. The staff openly admitted the error but … every person … was sanctioned … There are countless cases of people being sanctioned for missing appointments, and probably they received their appointment letter after the date of the appointment. Staff at the Job Centre receive a bonus if they can move people off Universal Credit. The intended method is clearly for them to help clients to move on to gainful employment”—

which is very good, but—

“the staff … have targets and … we have evidence of people being sanctioned and/or denied Universal Credit with no apparent reason because ‘They can always appeal afterwards’ ... which can represent months with no money whatsoever. A young lady moved to a different address. The Job Centre Plus was informed of the move. Initially her post was sent to the new address. ‘Inexplicably’, the young lady was sanctioned”,


because they had been sending things to the old address.

This is a catalogue of human errors but it is also a catalogue of human misery. He told me of another very bad case:

“A man in his mid-forties who suffers from learning difficulties, and mental and physical illnesses, was homeless but still in receipt of benefits (not Universal Credit). He found a private landlord who was willing to offer him a property with no deposit. Upon applying for housing benefit, he was told that he was deemed to be changing his circumstances and had to make a claim for Universal Credit. This took fourteen weeks for processing. The landlord was unwilling to wait that long for rent so the man became homeless again”.


He goes on. This is something we really should not accept in a civilised age. I do not question the integrity or good intentions of any Minister or any worker in any office, but we should remember that old adage, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. This is broke and it needs fixing and I appeal to the Chancellor next week to set about the task of fixing it.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The date for the boundary review is inevitably a snapshot. During the period of all boundary reviews, people are added to the register. As I said, the date of 1 December 2015 was approved by this House when the relevant legislation went through, and any interference with the current review would mean that the next election would be fought on boundaries dating from the year 2000. That cannot be in the interests of democracy.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, some people would think that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, was brazen; others that he was brave. Does my noble friend remember that it was the former Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal Democrat party who scuppered all this in a fit of pique when he lost his Bill on reform of the House of Lords?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend uses language which I would not dream of using at the Dispatch Box, but it is indeed the case that the coalition agreement, which was ratified by Liberal Democrat MPs and the membership of the Liberal Democrat party, committed them to reducing the number of MPs by 50, and that that legislation was taken through the other place by the Deputy Prime Minister, the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I cannot understand why the Liberal Democrats now seek to distance themselves from a measure which their former leader piloted through Parliament.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Cormack Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 8th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, introduced the Bill with his customary wit and made an extremely good case. It is one with which I find myself in substantial agreement. He was slightly unfair on himself, though, because he did not stress two things that he stressed last year when he introduced a similar Bill. First, he talked about 90; his Bill in no way touches upon the two hereditary offices of state, the Lord Great Chamberlain or the Earl Marshal. He has deliberately excluded them for constitutional reasons, and I think that is very sensible. Secondly, he did not spell out as clearly as he did last year that no single hereditary Peer sitting in your Lordships’ House at the moment is threatened by the Bill. This is not an expulsion Bill; it is merely a Bill that says in future we should not have these by-elections. I believe the case he has made, and which has just been echoed persuasively by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is one that should carry your Lordships’ House.

I believe it is a great pity if two or three, in a House that has a number of 803, seek to block what quite evidently is, or was last year, the will of the majority. I echo those calls that have been made to my noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness: please do not filibuster, particularly at a time when this House has potentially the most important task that it has had for over a century. We are going to have legislation brought before us on which the individual and collective wisdom of this House could have real influence without in any way challenging the acknowledged supremacy of the other place, so do not let us be involved in protracted navel-gazing. If there is a broad consensus for the Bill, let it go through.

I address my next remarks to my noble friend on the Government Front Bench. He may well say at the end of the Bill that the Government have no intention of giving it time. Indeed I suspect that is what he will say, although he will say it extremely elegantly. If the Government will not allow the Bill to pass then it will not pass; the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, knows that as well as we all do. However, there is something that the Government could and should speed forward. This has already been touched on by my noble friend Lord Cope, and it is a point that I myself have made many times in the past. What brings the House most into disrepute in this area is the ludicrous size of the electorate. We had 11 candidates and three voters, and a similar thing would apply if we had a vacancy on the Labour Benches. That makes no sense. It is impossible to defend. No one with an ounce of logic in his brain could begin to defend it. So let us, at least as a short-term measure, turn the whole House into the electorate when there is a vacancy. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, dealt wittily with the fact that 43% was 10% less than the poll in the lowest polling constituency in the recent general election. Nevertheless, if there are 800 voters and 400 or 500 of them vote, that is infinitely preferable to the farcical spectacle that we have at the moment.

I support the Bill and hope that it will pass but, if it does not, I hope that at the very least the Government will heed what my noble friend Lord Cope and I have said: we must do away with these tiny electorates. Let no one talk about precedents as things that bind for ever. I should love to hear the views of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, on this, and perhaps one day we will get them, but I remember the pledge made by Winston Churchill that he would restore the university seats. He said it; he meant it; he did not do it. It is time to move on.

Boundary Reviews 2018

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is out of kilter only because Wales is overrepresented compared with other countries in the UK Parliament. At the moment, the quota for Wales, the average number of voters in a Wales seat, is 56,000, against 71,000 in England. At the moment, we have a constituency in Wales, Arfon, with 39,000 voters, while North West Cambridgeshire has 92,000. The proposals that the Boundary Commission is introducing will ensure that each vote has equal weight.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack]

I think it is this side’s turn. Can my noble friend, having referred to the Burns committee, give an assurance to the House that, when the committee reports, its report will be fully debated and that, if there is indeed a consensus, the Government will give it a fair wind?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The business of the House is in the capable hands of the Government Chief Whip, who will have noted exactly what my noble friend has said. If my noble friend looks at what we said in our manifesto, he will see that we said we want to work with the House of Lords where there is a consensus on measures to take it forward. What we have actually said—I have now found the quote—is that the Government will work with Peers where there are measures that command consensus across the House.