National Security Council Leak

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The issue of whether the Official Secrets Act has been breached is a matter for the police and, ultimately, the courts. As I repeated in the Statement, the view of the Cabinet Secretary is that it is not necessary to refer the matter to the police. However, if the police want to investigate, we will co-operate fully.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, as both noble Lords cannot ask a question at the same time, I will ask my noble friend Lord Cormack to speak first.

[Lord Cormack]

I am most grateful, my Lords, and I associate myself entirely with everything that my noble friend has said about leaks and the severity of leaks from the National Security Council. I am probably the only Member of your Lordships’ House who knows Gavin Williamson very well, as my successor as Member of Parliament for South Staffordshire. Does my noble friend accept there is a human dimension to this? As we speak, his wife is in her home with the press camped around. Does the Minister accept it would be sensible, in view of the continued protestations of Mr Williamson, to reconsider referring this matter to the police? Mr Williamson has indicated he would welcome that and I think it would be to the satisfaction of all if it were done.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I can also say that I know Gavin Williamson well, having served in Parliament with him for five years and having been Chief Whip in that time. This is a difficult time for Gavin Williamson, his wife and his children, and I hope the media will give them the time and space they need to come to terms with what has happened. On the further steps my noble friend suggested, as I say, the Cabinet Secretary has judged it not necessary to refer the matter to the police, and the Cabinet Secretary will of course read the comments of my noble friend.

Elections: Online Interference

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

However, I say to my noble friend that voter ID is part of our policy to restore confidence in the integrity of the democratic process. He will know that last year we had pilots for the local elections and the Electoral Commission’s evaluations showed that they were a success. The overwhelming majority of people cast their vote without a problem. Tomorrow there will be another round of voter ID pilots in local government. We have consulted a wide range of civil society groups to ensure that voter ID will work for everyone.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

If voter ID is so important, why do the Government take such an obdurate line on identity cards?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I can do no better than to refer my noble friend to the very capable Answer given from this Dispatch Box only yesterday by my noble friend Lady Williams.

Economy: Productivity Measurement

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord has a long-standing interest in productivity data, perhaps inspired by the book Capitalism Without Capital by Professor Jonathan Haskel, with whom he has a relationship that is statistically significant. The noble Lord is quite right that intangible assets such as software, research and development and intellectual capital are now just as important as tangible assets. In fact, the annual investment in each is about the same. The ONS regularly engages with leading academics and government departments to ensure that its work meets their needs; there is an annual productivity user forum. Over the next two years, the ONS is investing in improving information, particularly on public service productivity, and I will ensure that it takes the noble Lord’s injunctions on board tomorrow morning.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, would it be a good idea if the good Professor Haskel turned his attention to productivity in your Lordships’ House, and compared it with productivity in what is fast becoming the House of Chaos at the other end of the Corridor?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is certainly the case that cost per Member is much lower in your Lordships’ House than in another place, although of course there are reasons for this. So far as productivity in your Lordships’ House is concerned, one possible measure would be the number of questions we get through in 30 minutes adjusted for quality.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Cormack]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert “, save for the Earl Marshal and Lord Great Chamberlain, who hold hereditary offices of state.”

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, before I speak to my amendment, I say—on behalf of everyone in the House, I am sure—how glad I am that there will be an opportunity for a minute’s silence at 11 am in the wake of the thoroughly barbaric and appalling outrage in New Zealand.

I also very much hope that we will be able to conclude proceedings on this Bill in good time to enable the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, which potentially affects hundreds of thousands of people in this country, to have a decent Second Reading.

My amendment is essentially a tidying-up amendment and a simple one, and I have discussed it with the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, who has kindly indicated to me that he is minded to accept it. There are 92 hereditary Peers in your Lordships’ House, but only 90 of them are subject to the by-election provision. I strongly support the Bill—the noble Lord knows that: I have spoken in its favour and may have to do so again—but there are two hereditary Peers who are not subject to by-elections, who are here by virtue of the fact that they hold important offices of state. Neither of them ever participates politically in the proceedings of your Lordships’ House, but the Lord Great Chamberlain has the duty from time to time to deliver messages to your Lordships’ House. Therefore, his membership is important although peripheral. The Earl Marshal has the very real burden of being in charge of notable affairs of state. Again, it is appropriate that he should be a Member of your Lordships’ House, and the measure adopted some 20 years ago accepted that.

All I suggest in the amendment is that we make it abundantly clear that the Bill is dealing with what it says it is dealing with—by-elections—and that those two posts are not relevant to the Bill and therefore should not form part of it. I beg to move.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, someone from this side should perhaps say a few words at this stage. I wholly associate myself—I am sure everyone in the House does—with the remarks made about the events resulting in our minute’s silence at 11 am. I fear that that might be the end of the consensual feeling I am able to express today.

The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, began his remarks by saying that he thought the Bill was unlikely to become law, and then spent 16 minutes making it less likely to become law. He knows perfectly well what he is doing; he has been here for 34 years, so I imagine that he is getting the hang of it by now. Mind you, he is a newcomer compared with our friends the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, who has been here for 49 years, and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, who has been here for 56 years. So they have had 140 years between them, and that is a pretty good innings. Maybe they can listen to some more recent voices.

I simply say this to the noble Lord: it is a pity he was not able to join us in Committee to familiarise himself with what has happened to the Bill so far. It was introduced 18 months ago in September 2017, when I was lucky enough to draw number one in the ballot for Private Members’ Bills, which should give one a reasonable hope of the Bill passing through its stages in the Lords. It had its Second Reading then; it has since had three days in Committee, which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was unable to get along to.

Had the noble Lord made it to the third day in Committee, he would now be aware that the precise amendment he is proposing now was debated at length and overwhelmingly opposed by those who spoke, including no less an authority on procedure—admittedly, not in this House—than the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, who pointed out, quite correctly, that this is a single-issue Bill that I am proposing. It is a three-clause Bill on one page. The noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, said, in terms, that to introduce this kind of additional related material into a single-issue Bill of this sort was a rather “generous” way of interpreting our procedures. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, knows perfectly well that, if this amendment were accepted or debated in any detail now, it would add enormously to the time involved in establishing this Bill, it would add to the costs of the Bill and, most importantly of all, it would do what I am sure his amendment is intended to do and make it even less likely that this Bill will become law.

I am so conscious on these occasions that we have these ragged debates—we have had several on this—that are unintelligible to the public outside. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, suggested that he was a moderniser; well, not in this respect. It needs someone—and it falls to me—to remind the House why we are doing this and why I am introducing the Bill. It is simply to end these idiotic by-elections, which are occurring with increasing frequency, in which only hereditary Peers on the hereditary Peers list, of which there are 211—I remind the House that 210 of them are men—can take part. In the first 10 years of the 20 years for which this system has been in operation, there were 10 by-elections. In the second 10 years, to date there have been 26. There is one pending, which bears a moment’s thought. It is due to be announced on 27 March. There are 28 electors who will elect this new Member of Parliament on 27 March, and 14 candidates; that is two electors per candidate. The cost of the by-election will be £600. Noble Lords might think that is not much, but I think—my maths is not very good—that is roughly £8 per vote. I would do it for less, should the offer be made to me. Needless to say, it is an all-male shortlist, which is quite unusual these days and takes some defending—which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is presumably capable of doing.

Most of what I want to emphasise today is what is happening in this House. In the last 10 days, 63 amendments have been put down to this simple, three-clause Bill, 53 of them by the same two Members—our old friends the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. They have degrouped all the amendments—I will not go into the details of degrouping, because I really would lose an audience if I were to try to do so—but it simply means that today we are discussing 42 groups of amendments. Most Chief Whips will say that if you are very lucky you can get through six groups in an hour—we are certainly not doing that now—so I reckon it would take seven hours of debate to get through those 42 groups. Of course, every one of them needs opposing, because most of them are ridiculous.

I will give two examples; I will spare my noble friend Lord Adonis on this side—I think he would win the prize for the silliest amendment. Actually, I cannot resist; I will mention it in a moment. But there are two that I will mention now. Amendment 47 says that in order for the Act to be implemented there would need to be an approving ballot among not just hereditary Peers here, but all hereditary Peers. There are about 900. I have not counted them, but I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, knows how many there are. I have no doubt that many of them are living abroad and are in various stages of excitement about the arguments that they can deploy—that is as politely as I can put it. The idea that you can organise a ballot of 900 people worldwide in order to sort this out is just ridiculous.

The amendment that takes second prize is Amendment 54, which says that the Act will be implemented when the number of women hereditary Peers equals the number of women hereditary Peers who were Members of the House of Lords at the time of the 1999 Act—you know it makes sense. There were four women hereditary Peers at the time of the 1999 Act. The progressive series of elections has resulted in the fact that there is now one—so the number has gone down from four to one—and the Act would come into effect until that number got back up to four. Please spare us that amendment. I ask that all the amendments be withdrawn or not moved, but let us concentrate to begin with on the most idiotic amendments. The idea that in the 21st century we should be arguing about whether we should have one woman or four women among the 92 reserved places is beyond satire.

However, I have to give first prize to my noble friend Lord Adonis. He says—

[Lord Cormack]

I support everything that the noble Lord, my friend, has said, but would it not look ridiculous in the country if this debate prevented a proper discussion of the Cohabitation Rights Bill, which is due for a Second Reading and in which many people throughout the country are taking a real interest?

[Lord Grocott]

That is absolutely right. This Report stage is scheduled to finish at 1.30 pm. That is ample time to deal with any reasonable amendments that anyone might wish to put down. It is generous time—but I am losing track of my desire to get to my noble friend Lord Adonis’s amendment. It would provide that, when the next by-election takes place, which we know will be on 27 March, when there are 28 electors, as I pointed out, the vacancy would be filled by a vote of the whole of the electorate of the United Kingdom. I will say that again because I do not think it has quite sunk in; the electorate would be the whole electorate of the United Kingdom. I cannot tot that up off the top of my head, but the electorate is about 40 million, so I suggest gently to my noble friend, who is known for his hyperbole, that to substitute 40 million electors for 28 electors to elect a hereditary Peer is overdoing it, so I hope my noble friend will have enough sense not to press that amendment.

This is all serious as far as I am concerned, but there is a real test here, particularly for the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. It is this: they can decide to expedite these amendments, and move them if they must, to conclude this Report stage by 1.30 pm. The House would then be orderly, it would have given the Bill more than enough time—more than anyone could reasonably expect a Bill of this length to have given to it—or they will be in grave danger of bringing the whole proceedings of this House into serious disrepute if they do not withdraw the vast majority of the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Cormack]

That the Question be now put.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I have to read this very slowly. I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered to be a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a noble Lord who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, wish to pursue his question?

[Lord Cormack]

I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I could not possibly comment on that nor tell the difference between the two. It was a pleasure to be in the Lobbies with the noble Lord, Lord Snape, and I was glad that we had a good conversation. However, I say again to my noble friend Lord Cormack that if really wants to have a Division on every single amendment, he may find this Bill delayed a bit more. That is the law of unintended consequences. I suggest that my noble friend does not try it again.

[Lord Cormack]

Surely my noble friend understands that, having had well over an hour on his amendment, it was time to move on. It was the general wish of the House to move on. His amendment was really without the scope of the Bill. It would be an admirable subject for a separate Bill and I would support it, but what we have seen today—I hope that my noble friend, having provoked me, will concede this—is a rather sophisticated filibuster to ensure that the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, does not complete all the amendments. That is a disgrace, given the overwhelming support he has in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, what we have seen today is a serious abuse of the procedures of the House by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, to stifle debate on a matter of significant public moment. That is what we have seen. I never thought, having been in this House for 15 years now, that I would see this abuse of procedure in the House. The issue of how people are appointed to this House is not a side or minor issue, it is fundamental to the working of our Parliament. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, on putting this issue before the House and I completely agree with him that we should continue to raise these matters, because this squalid Bill that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has promoted to perpetuate a nominated House of Lords is fundamentally against the interests of the people.

Constitutional Convention

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot agree with everything the noble Lord said, although he did make some extremely pertinent and very important points. Not for the first time, I am grateful to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who has been friend, colleague, sparring partner and sometimes fellow campaigner both in the other place and this one. I did not know about this debate until yesterday. I came out of hospital to lead a debate last night on the Royal Academy—a totally uncontroversial subject—and, sitting next to my noble friend Lord Higgins earlier in the day, I learned of this debate and that he was going to make his valedictory speech. That is why I put my name down. I went through a slight wobble this morning and am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan, for allowing me to come back in to the debate after I had scratched.

Listening to my noble friend Lord Higgins, I felt that I must say how much I have valued his wise, counsel and long friendship since 1970, when I entered the other place as a new and very raw MP. I owe a great deal to my noble friend, who began his public life as a spectacular sprinter but has become the long-distance runner of British politics. He has been an invaluable Member of both Houses of Parliament. In the Commons, one always looked to him for sound sagacity. He was absolutely dedicated to the parliamentary ideal and—we did slightly conspire together, although we were not successful—would have made a wonderful Speaker of the other place. He has been a very successful Member of your Lordships’ House, on both the Front and Back Benches. I am grateful for what he said about the campaign for an elected second Chamber, which many of your Lordships present are supporters of and which the noble Lord, Lord Norton, and I have attempted to steer for some 18 years now. Among the most regular attenders and those who have made a real contribution are the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, who spoke so movingly about my noble friend Lord Higgins, the late Lord Howe of Aberavon and my noble friend Lord Higgins.

I believe we are debating an important subject today. I am more in favour of the convocation than the convention, but I believe it is crucial to engage public interest in the democratic process and democratic institutions. We see now, in the aftermath of a bitterly divisive referendum, widespread disillusionment with the parliamentary practice and process that has made our country what it is. If we are to keep faith with people such as my noble friend Lord Higgins, we have to latch on to that and do something about it.

I believe, as does my noble friend Lord Higgins, that there is a continuing place for this Chamber. But it is important that its size be reduced, and that we recognise that we are not as effective as we should be because of our size. However, an assembly of those who do not in any sense challenge the unambiguous democratic authority of the other place has a continuing role to play in our democratic process. Yes, it should be more representative of the country as a whole, and yes, its numbers should be contained, but I believe it has a real and continuing role.

Following this debate—although it will not be immediate—I would like to see an appointment of a royal commission, as advocated by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon. That should be followed by a convocation that takes evidence from around the country in a judicious and balanced way, always recognising the danger implicit in 85% of the population of the United Kingdom being in England, a point made splendidly by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Such a convocation must take a long, balanced look at what our democracy should look like and what the relationship between the two Houses of Parliament should be as we move through the 21st century.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has done us a service by bringing the subject before us today. My noble friend Lord Higgins has adorned the debate with his wit and wisdom in a way that will make it memorable. I hope it will also lead to something in the years ahead.

Historical Allegations:Operation Conifer

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

This whole episode illustrates the problems confronting the police. On the one hand they are conducting thorough investigations and taking complainant’s allegations seriously, and on the other avoiding unfair damage to the reputation of people who can no longer defend themselves. The College of Policing has reflected on this challenge as part of its review of guidance in this area. The previous Home Secretary asked Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to see how this guidance is working. I hope that as part of that review, HMIC will take on board the very strong views expressed on many occasions by those on all sides of the House about the way the guidance is operating.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, this House has consistently urged the Government to take action. No action has been taken. The reputation of a great statesman has been trashed and traduced. The reputation of a fine Field Marshal has been questioned. The reputation of an admirable colleague and former Home Secretary has been trashed. What do we have to do to persuade the Government to set up an independent inquiry under a judicial figure to look at these things and to report back to Parliament? Why cannot this be done?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

This was precisely the proposition in respect of Sir Edward that was put to the Home Secretary at the meeting on 10 September. In his reply on 10 October the Home Secretary set out his reasons. I quote from the final paragraph: “The problem that the police encountered was their inability to interview Sir Edward himself in order to secure his account of events. I have every sympathy, but that problem will of course remain and it is not clear to what extent a further review of the existing evidence by a judge or retired prosecutor would resolve this”. For those reasons, the Home Secretary decided not to intervene. As my noble friend will know, there have been a number of independent inquiries into Operation Conifer. They concluded that the investigation was proportionate, legitimate and in accordance with national guidance. I know that it comes as a disappointment, but the Government do not believe that there are grounds for another independent inquiry into Operation Conifer.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 7th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I intervene briefly to set out the Government’s views on the Bill in general and on the amendments in particular. While we have reservations about the Bill, it is difficult, as has just been said by my noble friend, to reconcile it with the undertakings given at the time of the abolition Bill. Despite the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, he has not achieved consensus on his measure. Despite that, we have no plans to block the Bill or impede its progress, which is why I may not intervene on every one of the subsequent amendments. I say in passing that most Private Member’s Bills do not get this second bite at the Committee cherry.

On the amendments we are debating, I gently point out that previous Labour Governments never introduced the comprehensive reform called for in both amendments, but that the coalition Government did. It got a large majority at Second Reading in the other place, but the Bill then stalled because there was no agreement on the programme Motion, and without that the Bill was dead. As the then Leader of the other place I accept some responsibility for the failure to get my colleagues to agree to that Motion, but I gently point out that had other parties agreed to it—and other parties were committed to the policy—the Bill would have proceeded.

Once bitten, twice shy. We made it clear in our manifesto last year that such legislation was not a priority. Indeed, why risk wasting a large amount of time on a measure that had so recently failed? Instead, we said we would support incremental reforms that command consensus across the House. We can argue as to what is “incremental” and what is “consensual”. I note that at Second Reading there were 13 speeches in favour of the Bill and eight against, and that on our first day in Committee a number of my noble friends made it clear that this is a measure about which they feel so strongly that they are prepared to do whatever is necessary to delay progress, notwithstanding the fact that the Bill has no prospect of getting through the other place and on to the statute book.

Looking at the amendments today, concerns about the Bill are not confined to my party. The Government’s view is that the energies of the House may be better employed in implementing the recommendations of the Burns report, where all parties are committed to reducing our numbers. Burns was silent on the question of these by-elections, although it noted that the proportion of hereditary peers in a reduced House would increase if no action were taken, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and that by-election winners would pre-empt the appointments that would otherwise be made, impacting on my party and the Cross Benches.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

May we infer from what my noble friend has just said—I hope we can—that Burns will be given a fair wind so long as this House demonstrates again its overwhelming support for Burns?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Noble Lords demonstrated their support for Burns in the debate that took place last December. It was also confirmed in a debate that took place a year earlier, which I think my noble friend introduced, where the House voted to take steps to reduce its size. As my noble friend knows, the Burns committee has been reconvened and I hope that progress can be made.

The Prime Minister has maintained her policy of restraint so far as new appointments are concerned, with the lowest number of dissolution honours since 1979 and a smaller House than when she took office. Having restated the Government’s position, I propose to listen with interest and patience to the exchanges on the amendments, intervening only when absolutely necessary or when provoked beyond endurance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Desai (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, has really raised quite a large issue for what the Bill proposes, which is a quite a small but important reform. Only by-elections would be removed, not all the hereditary Peers—I wish it were so, but that is another story. There can be no envy on our part because we will never become hereditary Peers nor will we qualify to run in a by-election. We have no capacity to be envious of what is happening. We are just troubled about the anomaly and the insult to democracy that this procedure involves. As to the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, saying that a solemn promise was made, we have a very simple constitutional tradition: a Parliament is not bound by what a previous Parliament has done. If we had not continually revolutionised institutions by due process, we would not be where we are. We would have long ago been destroyed like the French monarchy was destroyed.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I speak as a fervent monarchist and as one who accepts a little of what my noble friend Lord Shinkwin said, but let me just remind him that if this Bill is passed, and I hope it will be, there would be two hereditary Peers: the hereditary officers of state, namely the Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain. They will be able to remain to fulfil their ceremonial function because when 92 was decided upon it was in fact 90 plus two. The only two true hereditary Peers who are succeeded by their sons, or daughters as it may be in the future, are in fact the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Earl Marshal. For the 90, if a Peer dies, his son or daughter could indeed be elected to succeed him, but the odds against that are fairly great.

I believe that what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is proposing is sensible and reasonable and I believe that my noble friend Lord Wakeham, whom we all hold in genuine high regard, should not worry about this being incompatible with Burns. The noble Lord, Lord Burns, has made it plain that if the reforms which he and his committee advocate come to pass, this issue will have to be addressed, as will the issue of the number of Bishops because of the proportion of the new House that they would represent. By taking this modest step, which removes no one from your Lordships’ House but merely closes one means of entry to your Lordships’ House, we would be demonstrating that we are indeed absolutely dedicated to incremental reform.

If one looks back at the various attempts to reform your Lordships’ House, incremental reform is really the only way forward. I saw only yesterday—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack]

That is a double temptation. I will give way to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Oh, as she is not getting to her feet, I shall continue.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

I imagined that the noble Lord was sitting down and I was going to make a separate point, so will he please continue?

[Lord Cormack]

I was just going to make one final point, and it is this. Only this morning, I was sent a cutting from the Evening Standard from November 1932. The Marquess of Salisbury was proposing major reform to your Lordships’ House. The size was to be reduced from 759 to 300, there were to be 150 hereditary Peers elected by themselves, the other 150 were to be indirectly elected by some other means and women were to be admitted for the first time. That was 1932. It was not until 1958 that women were first admitted to your Lordships’ House. What we have seen is that incremental reform has worked and wholesale reform has not. This is incremental. I hope it will command the support it deserves.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, I shall briefly echo the comments made by my noble friend Lady Hayter from the Front Bench. I respectfully say to the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and those who support him that it is quite difficult for some of us to understand what we are doing here. This House agreed that this Bill should have a Second Reading and that it should be committed to a Committee of the Whole House, and it has already had a substantial element of Committee scrutiny. It is really difficult to see what purpose is being served by the debate we are now having, in which the substantive issues from Second Reading are being reintroduced, other than to delay the progress of the Bill. I hope that we can bring this debate to a swift conclusion and move on with the Committee stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

I cannot speak for my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, but I say to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that the reason for tabling this amendment is that we are concerned about the average age of the House, which has gone up. One great advantage of having hereditary Peers here is the youth that is involved. If the noble Lord looks at the average age of life Peer appointments, he will see that, of the last 15 appointed, one was in their 80s, two were in their 70s, with most in their 60s. This eventually will shove the average age of the House up. I see the purpose of the amendment as to try to keep a balance and to keep the average age of the House as low as practicably possible.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench is being provoked beyond endurance. We have just seen a most appalling waste of time. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, moved his amendment, as he was entirely entitled to do, but he did not put in Tellers. There is no way of recording the enormous majority that displayed itself in the Not-Content Lobby. Had that vote come to a proper conclusion, I doubt whether he and his colleagues would have reached double figures. They certainly would not have got much beyond that. This is a disgraceful abuse of not just your Lordships’ House but the institution of Parliament. If my noble friend on the Front Bench is not provoked beyond endurance, I am.

[Lord Grocott]

I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, should reflect on it as well. He knows perfectly well that the one thing he dare not do in the proceedings today is to put any of these in many cases ridiculous amendments to the vote, because he would be defeated overwhelmingly, as on previous occasions. Just for the record, in this group, Amendment 11 states that:

“Standing Orders must provide that vacancies amongst the 90 excepted hereditary peers are filled by a method which ensures that the excepted hereditary peer is younger than the average age of members of the House of Lords at the time the vacancy occurs”.


Quite simply, that means that we would continue to have by-elections. This is a proposal to defeat the Bill. The Bill is to end the by-elections; this amendment would ensure that they continued. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, will beg leave to withdraw his amendment but, if he does not, I hope that he puts in tellers and votes this time and no longer abuses the procedures of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook]

Yes, I think he could count as a Scottish Peer.

[Lord Cormack]

What about the redoubtable noble Countess, Lady Mar, who is loved in all parts of this House? Is she a Scottish Peer? She lives in Worcestershire.

[Lord Northbrook]

As I understand it, she has lived in Worcestershire for quite a long time—so I would have to check the figures from the House of Lords Library on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook]

I am sorry to burden the House with my third amendment, but this is quite a serious point. I am quite surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has eliminated the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Earl Marshal because these are royal officials. Contrary to what my noble friend Lord Cormack said, actually, when Her Majesty’s reign comes to an end, the role of the current Lord Great Chamberlain will go to a separate family altogether.

[Lord Cormack]

Yes, but the point is that neither the Earl Marshal nor the Lord Great Chamberlain are subject to by-election. That is the important point. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and I have discussed this, and he accepts that. There are 90 who are subject to by-elections but neither of these two great offices of state are. They will continue to pass, as they do, within the one family in respect of the Earl Marshal and two families in respect of the Lord Great Chamberlain until the end of time unless this House and Parliament should decree otherwise. They cannot fall victim to this particular Bill because they are not subject to by-election, so the amendment that my noble friend is about to move is redundant.

[Lord Northbrook]

Can the noble Lord explain to me why he put 92 in this Bill but 90 in the previous Bill? I do not understand that point.

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[Lord Cormack]

The noble Lord will acknowledge that his Bill is designed—and this is why I support it—to end by-elections. His Bill does not end the Lord Great Chamberlain or the Earl Marshal. That is a simple statement of fact.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

Does the noble Lord wish to move his amendment?

[Lord Adonis]

I have learned more about the British constitution in the last five minutes than in many years. I had no idea about the arrangements for the rotation of the office of the Lord Great Chamberlain. I hope that whoever succeeds the present one has a more pronounceable name than the Marquess of Cholmondeley because the problem with holding receptions in the Cholmondeley Room is that nobody knows how to pronounce the name of the person after whom the room is named.

This is an issue with my noble friend’s Bill. I strongly object to my noble friend’s Bill because it entrenches a nominated House, which is his purpose—my noble friend wants to entrench a nominated House. He is not interested in a democratic House and he is not even interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, wants, which is incremental reform, although I notice that the noble Lord did not say what his next incremental reform would be. Maybe he might tell us in due course. Perhaps he does not want any further incremental reform.

[Lord Cormack]

This reform.

[Lord Adonis]

Just this reform and no further. We need to be clear about this. This will entrench a nominated House in perpetuity.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords,

“Up with your damned nonsense will I put twice, or perhaps once, but sometimes always, by God, never”,


as Richter said to the first flute in the orchestra. The noble Lord ought to know that we have in this House a Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, which I have the honour to chair and which my noble friend Lord Norton convenes; it has many Members of his side—enthusiastic Members, who are nodding as I am speaking. We believe in incremental reform. This is one more incremental reform following Steel, which dealt with retirement, following the Hayman Bill, which dealt with expulsion and there will be others. I hope that the big instalment later this year will be Burns. I would love to see that. It does not need legislation. That was why Burns was so skilful. I hope that we will have that, and it will be a further stage of incremental reform. It is not all legislative.

[Lord Adonis]

But these incremental reforms are so minute that no member of the public outside will have the faintest idea that any of this is happening. The reform that they will notice is whether we fundamentally change this House to turn it from being a nominated House that has no democratic legitimacy into an elected House which has legitimacy. That is the reform that will make a difference that people will notice. All this other incremental reform that the noble Lord is talking about is so much stuff and nonsense. It will have zero impact in the way that the House is perceived externally, and nothing other than a tiny, marginal impact on the actual operation of the House internally.

However, in terms of the integrity of the Bill, because I know that my noble friend is keen for us to stay on message, in so far as there is any principle at stake in the Bill at all, I do not accept it because I do not think that it makes the House any more legitimate than it is at the moment. To have hereditary Peers is fundamentally illegitimate. As a nominated House, as it would become after the passage of my noble friend’s Bill, it does not even achieve my noble friend’s objective. I understood that his objective was, over time, to eliminate the hereditary Peers. Now we discover from the noble Lord’s amendment that two hereditary Peers will remain, so there will still be an hereditary component in this House, even after the labours of Hercules that my noble friend has engaged in over many recent months.

The nonsensical nature of this Bill—nonsensical if one believes in wider reform, which some of us do—is made even greater when one looks at the actual detailed provisions. It does not even achieve my noble friend’s objective of seeking to entrench in perpetuity a nominated House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

Before the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, rises to speak, perhaps I may say this to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. He has every right to suggest that this place should be swept away and replaced by a directly elected second Chamber. That is a perfectly valid constitutional point of view. But for reasons that have been advanced time and time again, many of us in this House do not believe that and we refute it. We believe that this House is complementary to another place and that it adds value to the constitutional system. We believe that the unambiguous democratic mandate lies at the other end of the corridor but that we have something, both individually and collectively, free from many of the shackles of party and buttressed by a large Cross-Bench element, that we can contribute. That is an equally valid point of view to that of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. While I respect his view as valid, I would ask him to reciprocate that feeling.

[Lord Grocott]

Perhaps I may have a word with my noble friend, who I always admire for his psychic powers, which I do not possess. He knows exactly why I do what I am doing at all stages. My noble friend is totally opposed to this Bill. I think he is the only person on these Benches—someone will stop me if I am wrong—or even on the Liberal Democrat Benches who is. I am grateful to him for clarifying his position. Whether he is sitting in the right place or not is only for him to judge.

I say this to my noble friend: I wish that he had made this statement a bit earlier. I had an identical Bill in the previous Parliament which received a Second Reading and a Committee stage. I do not recall seeing him in his place to express his view. He certainly did not take part in the Committee stage of this Bill on 23 March this year. I looked for him in the Division Lobby.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lord, perhaps I may have a little clarification on what I understood the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to say. We are looking at the point that this Bill would not affect the Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain, but in discussing that element, I thought that the noble Lord said that these two gentlemen are not required to be Members of this House. When they come to perform their ceremonial duties, I wonder whether they do not have to be Members of the House in order to stand in the areas where they are required.

[Lord Cormack]

Of course they do.

[Lord Grocott]

What is interesting to note, my Lords, is that both of them have been on leave of absence. One is no longer on that leave, but for at least the last several years that I have been looking at it, they have been on permanent leave of absence. That includes general election periods and the State Opening of Parliament. While I cannot pretend to know the constitution in enough depth to know whether they are allowed to stand in a certain place at a certain time, I can assure the noble Duke that the machinery of the State Opening has functioned perfectly well when these two people have been on leave of absence from the House of Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

My Lords, I agree very much with the sentiments of the noble Lord who has just spoken. The trouble is that some of us see this as a party political strike against the Conservative Party, given the disproportionate number of Conservative Peers who would be removed. This was not a move that has been made by the Conservative Party—rather, it has been made by the Labour Benches. Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, with support from his Front Bench, was rejoicing in the fact that he had universal approbation. Underneath this Bill is a political strike and a poison. It upsets many people who have given long service to this House. It upsets the traditional balance of the House without, as I have said before, broader democratic consent.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord True]

No, at this stage I will not give way to my noble friend. He has had plenty to say, so I will give way to him later.

It is very unfortunate that the Bill is being pressed in this way and at this time which, notwithstanding my noble friend’s agreement with it, is in my judgment party political. Of course I agree with everything said by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and I was grateful to have the fifth cavalry arrive to give support to the point I have been trying to make; namely, that the effect of this Bill is to create what the majority of people here want but do not proclaim, which is a permanent nominated House. That is what they want and that is why they support this allegedly incremental step.

Perhaps, as my noble friend on the Front Bench has just said, we could come back to the amendment. While I cannot speak for my noble friend Lord Northbrook, the Bill as I read it excludes all 92 peerages in the sense that there will be no succession. It therefore would do what my noble friend Lord Cormack has said he does not want to see happen: it would exclude the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Earl Marshal.

I will give way to my noble friend.

[Lord Cormack]

I am most grateful. I will make one brief point. If my noble friend had been in the Lobby, he would have seen plenty of Conservative colleagues, including some very prominent ones, in it. The point is this: the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has said repeatedly, is to abolish by-elections. It does not touch on the Lord Great Chamberlain or the Earl Marshal because they are not subject to by-elections. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has got this wrong and he has acknowledged that he has done so. He has made his personal observation that he does not see why these two people need to be Members of the House of Lords. That is his point of view—it is not mine—but it is not affected by his Bill because it deals with by-elections, and only with by-elections.

[Lord True]

As always I thank my noble friend for his agile clarification for the House. I agree that I would not want to see him upset by the removal of the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Earl Marshal. By the way, the previous Earl Marshal was a very assiduous attender of this place.

If the House is going to be asked to vote, we need to know what we are voting on. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has put this Bill before the House. My noble friend Lord Northbrook has tried to clarify the point which my noble friend Lord Cormack supports, which is that the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Earl Marshal should stay. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, thinks that they should go. It is a rather minor point, but actually this is a legislative House. Given that, before we vote, can we be told by the mover of the Bill what he is proposing? He wishes to remove all 92; that is the effect of his Bill and that is his intent. We have heard what my noble friend Lord Cormack says, but what is the mover of the Bill telling the House?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

My Lords, having heard my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I shall not follow the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, down that road, but the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is not alone in not adhering to the Labour manifesto policy on that matter. I am disappointed by the reaction. I do not believe this Bill is the right construction, and I oppose it in principle because it has the effect, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, rightly said, of entrenching a nominated House. It is true that in the interests of fairness my amendment would, for a temporary period until reform, lead to a life Peer replacing a hereditary Peer, and he or she would be a nominated Peer. However, that is not the purpose of my amendment in the long term. I have every sympathy.

It is interesting that whenever a noble Lord stands up in your Lordships’ House and even entertains the idea of an elected House of Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is familiar with this, as am I—a sort of posse, often led by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, rises with a mugging party and says, “It shall not be”. The reality is that almost everyone here who is a life Peer wants to stay and believes the House is absolutely perfect as it is and that we should not have any reform. Yes, we can talk about little bits of increment but never reform. That is the reality of the position. I am sorry to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that I do not accept her comments. She is right to a point to say that it is an atavistic and understandable wish of the Labour Party and socialist movement more generally to eliminate the hereditary Peerage in Parliament. It is a perfectly respectable wish that can, and I am sure will, be accomplished one day by a Labour Government because that is the way our democracy works. My basic submission, however, is that it should not be accomplished by stealth in a Private Member’s Bill that entrenches an all-appointed House. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, did not address that point. She returned to the evasion which the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has continually used, saying that this is just about ending by-elections. It is not just about ending by-elections; it is about, over time, creating an all-nominated House. For those who wish to achieve something, there is a piece of Virgil—I shall not quote him because it is not right—that states that often those who wish to achieve something weave a different pretext for it.

My noble friend is rising to tell me that it is all about incremental reform and I will hear it again.

[Lord Cormack]

His noble friend is rising to say that if everyone is trying to come clean on things, will he please come clean and say that his policy is for the abolition of this House and its replacement by something totally different? That is a valid and respectable point of view, but that is his point of view. Mine is the opposite.

[Lord True]

I definitely respect that, but since I do not share his opinion that all will necessarily be hunky-dory once hereditary Peers go, it is perfectly legitimate for me to point out my point of view, and I will do it as often as I am invited to by my noble friend, who frequently reminds us of his own position. I do not necessarily think this Chamber would be made more effective by the removal of the hereditary Peerage, but that is not what I am arguing.

I am disappointed by the reaction to the amendment. The fact is that the effect of the Bill over time, whatever the noble Lord says, will be disproportionate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judd, said the Cross Benches could look after themselves, and of course they can. I am sure the hereditary Peers on the Cross Benches may well disagree with me when I say it is a pity that they are going. I will speak only from my point of view as a Conservative: I believe a Bill that would result in 20% of the Conservative strength in this House being removed over time is a political Bill and an unfair one.

I believe the Bill could be improved by the amendment; I think equity would be restored. The amendment would not stop the noble Lord’s Bill to abolish hereditary by-elections. It would permit him and the Labour Party to achieve their objective; it just asks for temporary political equity. I think it is mean-minded to reject it out of hand, and on these political grounds I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Elections: Personation

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think that the commitment to abolish ID cards was in my party’s manifesto in 2010, as well as in that of the Liberal Democrats. The House will know that the Government are not minded to introduce ID cards. We are making good progress in reducing electoral ballot fraud through voter ID and I think that that is a more proportionate solution than the one proposed by the noble Lord.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Would my noble friend not agree that there is enormous support in the country for the proposition advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan? Manifestos are not infallible and have occasionally been proved to be wrong. Will my noble friend please think again?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend invites me to make comments way above my pay grade. I am a humble Lord in waiting and spokesman for the Cabinet Office and the Government have made it absolutely clear that they have no plans to introduce ID cards. I will, however, make sure that my seniors in government are aware of my noble friend’s question.

Referendums: Parliamentary Democracy

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with many of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria. There has been a subtext to every speech in this very remarkable debate, introduced so splendidly by my noble friend Lord Higgins. The subtext has been, “I wouldn’t have started from here”. I have to say to myself as well as to everybody else that we are indeed where we are.

We have had two very fine maiden speeches in this debate. My noble friend Lord Pickles made a gently but wonderfully idiosyncratic speech that we will all remember. It was a potted autobiography, and all the better for that. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, made a very fine speech. I am just sorry that he was not appropriately dressed for it, in view of the fact that he comes from a family of kilt makers.

This is an incredibly serious matter. I was very taken by the reference to the Netherlands by my noble friend Lord Higgins. I would love to have a Bill before your Lordships’ House stating that there will not be any more referendums. But, again, they are now part of our system. We could of course have one that would have one question: do you wish to continue to live in a parliamentary democracy? I believe that a parliamentary representative democracy is really inimical to the concept of a referendum, but we have to accept that there will probably be other ones.

Let us remember that it is our duty to learn from our mistakes. We made mistakes when we passed that Act without inserting requirements for a specific majority, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, suggested we might have done—but we did not. The lesson that has come out of this debate more clearly than any other is that a referendum should be to ratify what Parliament has decided. That is in fact what the referendum of 1975 did. I took part in it; it was an intelligent debate. I had Labour Members of Parliament, colleagues, staying in my own home and taking part with me in meetings in my own constituency. Everybody knew what it was about. We had entered what was then the European Economic Community and were deciding whether to endorse that particular decision. As the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, has just reminded us, we endorsed it with more than a two-thirds majority. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, also talked about Northern Ireland but, again, that was endorsing—ratifying—something that had in effect already been decided.

Any referendum Act—and there is a need for one—should have two principal objectives. First, the referendum should be to ratify what Parliament has decided and, secondly, as with those countries that have a written constitution—to which the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and others referred—there should be a threshold, as we had in 1979, and a percentage. No referendum should ever be judged as an instruction from the people unless there is a very large majority indeed. The majority of 2016 was something of a generational majority; my grandchildren were in tears because of what my generation had done to them. We cannot rerun it. I am not one of those who will advocate a second referendum, but I really do recommend that we heed the lessons of our recent past.

I have always been a great student of the English Civil War. I have known the facts for a very long time, since I taught them as a schoolmaster. In the last few months, I have come to understand the emotions. Parties have been torn apart and friends have said things to friends that a friend should never say. I really do believe that that is because the result was so close. We have to learn these lessons. I suspect that Mr Cameron, who chose the wrong time for the referendum, when people were confusing migration and immigration—remember that dreadful Nigel Farage poster of the Syrian refugees—made a promise not thinking that he would have to deliver. I think he still felt that he would be to some degree dependent upon Liberal Democrat votes, which was not something that would lead to a referendum.

As I said, we are where we are. We have got to make sure that such a division never occurs in our country again. In the next few months, we have to try to heal the wounds—which are quite deep—that have already been caused.

Elections: Electoral Commission Recommendations

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Cormack]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the continued integrity of elections in the United Kingdom in the light of the Electoral Commission’s recommendations.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the Government welcome the Electoral Commission’s report on digital campaigning and will consider its recommendations carefully. In line with this, the Government will consult this summer on whether to introduce an imprint for digital electoral material and how such a requirement could be appropriately framed. The Government are committed to increasing transparency in digital electoral campaigning to maintain a fair and proportionate democratic process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that response, but he will know that the chairman of the Electoral Commission has called for legislation. Will the Government give that careful thought? If so, will they make sure that the legislation also applies to the commission so that it is obliged to respond more expeditiously? More than two years after June 2016, we are still waiting for its comments on the Vote Leave campaign and whether it behaved responsibly or not.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend will know that the Electoral Commission has made requests for legislation, particularly to increase the sanctions that are available to it. He referred to some commission inquiries. Last month, the commission published an inquiry into the activities of Vote Leave during the referendum campaign. He is quite right that there are two outstanding inquiries: one into Better for the Country Ltd and Arron Banks, and one into Vote Leave, Darren Grimes and Veterans for Britain, which commenced in November last year and, as I understand it, will be completed later this year. The Electoral Commission is an independent body so I need to be careful with what I say, but I am sure that Sir John Holmes will read my noble friend’s comments.