Domestic Violence: Victims

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Donaghy]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they are taking to ensure that victims of domestic violence have access to safe and secure accommodation in both the short and long term.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, we have secured £100 million in the spending review for tackling violence against women and girls, to support victims of domestic abuse; £20 million was our 2016 to 2018 funding for accommodation-based support and service reform. We funded 76 projects, creating more bed spaces in safe accommodation. We fund routes to support to help victims access refuges, and we published priorities for domestic abuse services in November 2016 to set out what effective local service commissioning looks like.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his reply, but the Government are relying on cash-strapped local authorities to commission refuge services. Commissioning practices have led to 17% of specialist refuges in England being closed, and one in four referrals being turned away. That is probably the tip of the iceberg. Women’s Aid says that the local housing allowance cap on housing benefit would force 67% of refuges to close. Does the Minister accept that the Government are failing in their duty to adopt a strategic approach to domestic violence?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

No, my Lords. The noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear that I do not accept that. I am meeting Katie Ghose, the chief executive of Women’s Aid, this afternoon, and I look forward to that meeting. We very much value working with our partners. As I have indicated, we are putting in more money—but it is not just about money. As the noble Baroness will know, we will shortly bring forward domestic abuse legislation, which will look at some of the deep-seated issues.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

Is the Minister aware of the sort of situation in which people are suffering? For example, I am dealing at the moment with the case of someone who has been threatened by her landlord—an illegal landlord—that if she is not out by Friday he will take action. This is all because she called in the police when some of her stuff was stolen; that had been going on for years while she lived there. But when someone phones the police, they say, “This is a civil matter and nothing to do with the police”. Is it not time there was some particular central thing, rather than just the local authority list, which this woman was on for four years and was then told that anyone who had not been on the list for five years would be taken off it? This happened in Camden, which I think has good policies otherwise. What is the answer about the police, and the fact that they will not get involved when these dangerous situations arise?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am not aware of the particular situation the noble Baroness is referring to, but I know that we work closely with the police. They are a much-valued partner in relation to this. As I said, legislation will be forthcoming. We shall consult in the autumn on the principles of that legislation, and I think that it will be ground-breaking.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that when young children are in families in which there is domestic violence, it has a marked impact on their well-being? Will he ensure that when the police are called to a household where there is domestic violence and where children are involved, the children will be properly protected and reference will be made to the children’s services?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very important point about the particular situation where children witness domestic abuse. This is something that will be very much referenced in the consultation, and we will be looking at, for example, possibly having more stringent penalties when children are subjected to the sort of situation referred to by the noble Lord. I will take the specific situation he referred to back because it is a very valuable point.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, the domestic violence disclosure scheme was rolled out in 2014, and the first bit of evidence suggests that different police forces have been implementing it in very different ways. What are the Government doing to ensure that there is more consistency across all police forces in using that scheme?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Baroness raises an interesting point about consistency, and she is absolutely right: we need to see consistency, although perhaps not uniformity. There will be certain situations that demand a different response. Again, that is something that we will be looking at in the consultation being carried out this autumn on the principles of the legislation.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

My Lords, if what the noble Lord said in response to my noble friend Lady Donaghy is right, why did women’s refuges, when surveyed, say that their biggest problem was the uncertainty around future funding cuts and present funding cuts? Can the Minister explain?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I have spoken to many refuges and many providers of services in relation to domestic abuse. Any government department is always under pressure to spend more money, but this is far from being the only issue. I have seen some excellent refuges—very recently in Derbyshire and Hampshire. I have seen some excellent services and have discussed this issue, for example, recently in Liverpool. Of course it is an issue; government departments are always under pressure to spend more money. But this is far from being the only issue—or even the primary one.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

My Lords, most of the comments so far have been about women’s refuges. I wonder whether my noble friend can comment on some of the work being done where the perpetrator is removed and the home of the victim is made safe so that the children and the victim can continue with a more normal life than being removed to a refuge.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Far from being the only response to domestic abuse in the shape of refuges, there are many other ways of tackling the issue of domestic abuse, and it is what is appropriate in a particular situation. We look at sanctuary schemes, for example, and outreach support for people who are still at home. There are diverse responses according to the different situations that we face.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I hope that the Minister is aware that refuges are needed for men as well as women. A minority of men are at risk, and it is extremely difficult for them to find anywhere to go if they have to leave home. There is also a need for victims of forced marriage, many of whom are underage. They also are not really looked after at the moment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness for that point. She is right, of course; a significant minority of men are subjected to domestic violence and organisations support them, too. It is important that that message gets across—and that is something I shall mention to Katie Ghose this afternoon. The noble and learned Baroness also mentioned forced marriages. There are particular issues in the BME community and, again, we try to confront that. We have support from particular organisations that deal with BME domestic abuse: for example, Imkaan, and on my recent Liverpool visit I met Tracey Gore of the Steve Biko domestic abuse service—so we are over that as well.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My noble friend Lady Donaghy tabled this Question two weeks ago. When did the Minister’s office conveniently fix up for him to meet the chief executive of Women’s Aid this afternoon?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I have great respect for the noble Lord, but he will be disappointed to know that it has been in the calendar for far longer than that. I am sorry to have to tell him that. An earlier meeting was postponed because I could not make it. It was put back in the diary immediately to have the meeting today. I am very grateful for the question the noble Lord has just asked.

Housing: Social and Affordable Rents

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare that I am a locally elected councillor and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, on a daily basis social rent will continue to be delivered by developers and housing associations across England through agreed Section 106 contributions with local planning authorities. The number and tenures of homes to be built outside government funding will depend on housing providers’ assessments of local needs and markets, which are agreed through negotiation of a Section 106 contribution. The Government’s current £7.1 billion affordable homes programme runs affordable rent. The Government introduced affordable rent in 2012 to maximise government investment, enabling us to build more homes for every pound of public spending. This has allowed us to build around 333,000 affordable homes since 2010.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the English Housing Survey produced by the noble Lord’s own department and published earlier this year tells us that:

“The number of families in the private rented sector has increased; and the number of families in the social rented sector has decreased”.


It goes on to say that those in the private rented sector,

“spend a significantly greater proportion of their … income on their housing costs”

than do social renters or those buying with a mortgage. Of the 46,328 building starts in the housing association sector up to June 2017, only 3,726 were at a social rent.

Can the noble Lord tell the House why the Government are so opposed to social rented housing playing its full role in dealing with the housing crisis, as evidenced by the Government’s own funding programmes and policies?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, we are not opposed to it. We are discussing it frankly with the London mayor—indeed, we discussed it with him last week. I absolutely accept that more needs to be done, but there has been an increase in affordable housing starts. We are looking at the social housing programme, particularly in the larger cities, and particularly in London. In the meantime, we are increasing the number of houses being built.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

Can my noble friend say what Her Majesty’s Government are doing to support those who need help accessing housing?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that the recent housing White Paper sets out many of the things that we are doing. In addition to the affordable homes programme to which I referred, there is a housing infrastructure fund of £2.3 billion, new town development corporations delivering garden towns, and a land release fund that was launched in August 2017—just last month. Increased planning fees are coming on stream, which will help, and we are doing bespoke housing deals as well.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

My Lords, how do the Government define affordable housing?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an interesting point. Affordable housing is at about 80% of market rates. That is the rough assessment.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my entry in the register of interests. Is the Minister aware that the number of government-funded new homes built for social rent fell in 2016-17 to just 1,102? Does he agree that there is a much bigger role for local government in driving forward the building of social housing? Will the Government lift the cap on borrowing so that local authorities can build a great deal more social homes for rent?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that there is a difference between social housing and social rents. The amount of social housing is something to which we have committed in the White Paper, and we are looking at that. As I indicated, we are discussing the situation in London with the London mayor. In the meantime, most social housing—about 94%, I think—is at social rents. The noble Lord referred to the borrowing limit. At the moment, there is plenty of headroom for local authorities in that regard, and there is no indication that it needs raising. We are obviously alive to the fact that in the future that might be the case but it certainly is not at the moment.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, has the Minister heard, as I have, the housing associations say with great regret that although they were founded to house the poorest people in society, increasingly they are having to move upmarket and are having to turn away the poorest households because rents have risen with lower grants and benefits have been cut? If the housing associations cannot house the poorest households, how can we expect private landlords to do so, and does not that simply mean more homelessness?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right to raise the considerable housing challenge that we face. In the meantime, we are building more than has been built in the years since 2008. I think that we are now running at record levels in relation to new starts. The noble Lord is right about particular issues with people and affordability. We are analysing the consultation on the National Planning Policy Framework, which is about building in the right place. I believe that that will make a difference when we respond to that consultation.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)]

My Lords, can we go back to the original Question of my noble friend Lord Kennedy, in which he asked not about affordable rents, which is what the Minister has emphasised, but about social housing and social rents? Will the Minister confirm the figures given just now on the number of new starts in social housing at social rents? What is the Government’s estimate of how many we need in the next three years and how many the Government expect to see provided?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, to reiterate my point, there is of course a difference between social housing and social rents. The question is about social rents. I indicated that these are being delivered via Section 106 contributions. In 2015-16, the last year for which we have figures, 6,800 of the homes delivered by such contributions were for social rent. I will endeavour to find figures for the earlier years, if that would be helpful. I will write to the noble Lord on that and will circulate it. However, there is a big difference between social housing and social rent.

Non-Domestic Rating (Alteration of Lists and Appeals) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

It is a damning report from the committee. The whole thing has been very badly handled. The Government should go back over this issue very carefully.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate and particularly the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for tabling the Motion on this important topic. I am grateful for the contributions that he and other noble Lords made. I also thank the noble Earl for the helpful discussions we had prior to today’s debate. He is of course a considerable expert in this field and I am very grateful for his views and input.

It is important that we keep this in perspective and do not indulge in what could be interpreted as slightly wild hyperbole in terms of one or two matters that have been referred to. For example, reference was made to a “damning report” from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. There are criticisms there, but it states:

“We understand the sequence of events that preceded the laying of the Regulations”.


It is important that we keep these things within acceptable bounds when we look at them.

Perhaps I may deal first with the context of the debate, because much comment was made in relation not to the content of the statutory instruments but to the wider issue of the possible rebalancing of the business rating system. I understand the point made by all noble Lords who participated about online retail and the high street—I pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lord Naseby, who I know has championed this issue well ahead of other people and has been a pioneer in the field. It presents serious challenges. There is an international aspect to it. We are leading with the OECD and the G20 on this matter and have been active in the debate on it. We look forward to receiving a report on it by spring 2018. That may well provide the context that we need to look at this issue. I accept that it needs to be looked at.

I hope noble Lords are in agreement that we need to look at the basis on which we tackle the whole issue of appeals. Under the previous system, large numbers of speculative appeals were made, accompanied by little or no supporting evidence—that is a fact and I see the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, acknowledging it, for which I am grateful. Almost 1.1 million challenges have been made to the 2010 list, covering a huge proportion of the total number of rateable properties, yet 72% of those challenges led to no change to the ratings list, with a large proportion eventually withdrawn. It cannot be right that appeals are made as a matter of routine, often backed by little or no supporting evidence. It clearly cannot be right that a significant number of appeals began with entirely spurious claims that the valuation of a property should be reduced to £1. More importantly, this huge volume of appeals served only to clog up the system—reference was made to that. That has an effect on genuine cases—there are some, of course—delaying receipt of any backdated refunds that they may be due.

The Valuation Office Agency has cleared on average 45,000 appeals per quarter over the past nine months and continues to clear outstanding appeals at a steady rate. The number of outstanding appeals partly reflects the large number of speculative appeals made with limited evidence, and shows why the system was in need of reform.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, quite fairly asked whether the Government would introduce a time limit for appeals. The Government’s response to the consultation stated that there are clear benefits to introducing a cut-off point for appeals. We intend to review the early implementation of the new system before bringing forward proposals before April 2018 for setting a fixed time limit for appeals.

It is not just ratepayers who suffer from speculative appeals. Such appeals and the delays that result from them waste public resources in the Valuation Office Agency and Valuation Tribunal, and cause uncertainty for local authorities—a point made very fairly by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock—which are heavily reliant on business rates to help fund local services.

The reforms introduced in April this year were an important and necessary step to deal with some of the serious flaws in the previous system. Through the three-stage check, challenge and appeal framework, they provide a more structured process to promote early engagement between the parties and help genuine cases to be resolved more efficiently. This will provide a clear framework for the exchange of evidence between the Valuation Office Agency and the ratepayer so that, where possible, cases can be resolved before reaching tribunal.

Quite rightly, the Government have sought to raise the bar in terms of the need for challenges to be backed by clear arguments and evidence. While there is no charge for engaging with the Valuation Office Agency, the reforms introduce small fees for making an appeal to the Valuation Tribunal—£300 is the standard, with a £150 fee for smaller businesses—to incentivise early engagement and help tackle the speculative appeals driven by the no-win no-fee end of the ratings market. The fees are refundable upon a successful appeal and are reduced from £300 to £150 for smaller businesses.

Regarding the supposedly no-win no-fee sector of the market, noble Lords may be interested in a recent case where an agent claimed a fee from a small business following a reduction in its bill that was entirely a result of the national revaluation. Having signed the ratepayer up to a complex and confusing contract, the agent is now seeking payment of £400, for having done little to no actual work, I expect. These are important reforms that aim to improve the system for all involved.

While I hope that we can agree that change was necessary, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and other noble Lords for sharing their views about the new system in this debate. Before turning to some of the themes and issues raised, I should address the specific points raised by his Motion. He contends that the reforms were introduced without adequate regard for the concerns of experts in rating appeals. I take issue with that. I should reassure noble Lords that the policy was developed through an extensive process of engagement with stakeholders. The Government have run and responded to two formal consultations, one on the overall policy approach and one specifically on the draft regulations. In parallel, officials in my department have held a number of formal and informal meetings with groups of business representatives, local authorities and ratings experts. This has included, for example, direct discussions with the CBI, the Federation for Small Businesses, the Local Government Association and numerous major surveying and property firms.

While I accept that there may be matters on which the Government and some representatives of the ratings sector have not reached full agreement, I reassure noble Lords that their views have been given due regard. I do not intend to repeat the detail of all these matters but refer noble Lords to the formal published responses to consultations that clearly set out the Government’s decisions and the reasons for them. I will write to noble Lords with links to the relevant publications.

Secondly, the Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, suggests that the new system was introduced without adequate testing. I reassure noble Lords that the Valuation Office Agency carried out user research with large and small businesses, and with agents, when building the service. The functionality of the systems was tested prior to launch. However, while pre-launch testing was carried out, I fully accept that there have been some challenges around the online portal of the new system.

As well as these technical IT problems, I understand that there were concerns that the system could work more effectively for some users, particularly ratepayers with large property portfolios represented by agents. The Government’s overriding priority is to make sure the system works and businesses pay the right rates. For smaller businesses, I understand that the system operates effectively to enable them to check their detailed valuation. However, I recognise that there may be scope for further improvements to better support agents acting for larger ratepayers. The Valuation Office Agency is working closely with business leaders and the rating industries to understand their priorities for improving the system. The department and I will keep a close watch on this. The VOA also brought in additional IT expertise from HMRC to assist with the development of solutions and to ensure that they are delivered as quickly as possible. I am happy to engage with the noble Earl on this matter and to ensure that any messages are passed on to the VOA.

Following discussions with rating agents and businesses, noble Lords will be reassured to know that the Valuation Office Agency has now also provided them with a clear plan setting out key improvements over the coming year. This includes, for example, work to develop the necessary software to enable rating agents with large portfolios to exchange information more efficiently with the Valuation Office Agency. As I said, the Government will continue to monitor progress in implementing the new system and expect the Valuation Office Agency to continue to engage with stakeholders to identify and speedily address any delivery issues.

The noble Earl’s Motion refers to the introduction of regulations to a truncated timescale. I expect this is a reference to the breach of the 21-day rule. I do not intend to dwell on this point, given the detailed explanation for the breach provided in the Explanatory Memorandum accompanying the regulations. In summary, however, in the context of significant scrutiny of the business rates system in March, the Government considered it necessary to consider carefully the views and issues raised before finalising the regulations.

It may be helpful if I turn to some of the main themes of the debate and the concerns around the system highlighted by noble Lords. One was the issue in relation to “online”, if I may put it that way, which I have dealt with. It is worth stating in this context that the Government made available £435 million to deal with some of the transitional difficulties and other difficulties experienced by particular industries. I accept that there remain concerns.

On other issues raised, the first relates to the transparency of the information on which valuations are based and an appetite, particularly from the rating agents sector, for much greater disclosure of information held by the VOA. I am entirely sympathetic to the need for businesses to understand their valuation. Under the new system, ratepayers are able to check the valuation of their property online and obtain a detailed breakdown of how that valuation has been made, including the valuation of different parts of the property and any relevant adjustments. They are able to obtain this information without having to make a formal appeal or to incur any fees.

On a specific point about freedom of information raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, we have of course made the consultation documents available. I am very happy to pick up with the noble Lord if he thinks other matters relating to freedom of information have not been dealt with but I think that answers his point.

Where a business makes a challenge to the valuation, there are then clear legal duties for the Valuation Office Agency to provide the ratepayer with relevant information that it holds. I hope noble Lords would agree that the provision of information needs to be proportionate and balanced with the interests of other taxpayers, whose information may be used to assess values. There is that issue about disclosing other people’s information. That is why the system provides for a structured process of engagement, the disclosure of information relevant to the case in hand and a registration process intended to ensure that information is provided only to those with a valid interest.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I made some general comments about consultation with respect to the Minister’s department, which perhaps he could address. I also refer him to paragraph 10 in the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It said:

“It is clear that many business ratepayers continue to have serious concerns about the nature of the reforms to the business rates appeals system made by these Regulations, despite the consultation processes which”,


the DCLG,

“has pursued over the last 18 months. The degree of controversy about these reforms may well explain why the Department was unable to lay the Regulations by the end of last year, as it undertook to do seven months ago, and indeed why it considered it necessary to allow only two weeks between the dates of laying and coming into force”.

The committee went on to say:

“We understand the sequence of events that preceded the laying of the Regulations, but we find it very regrettable that the Government have curtailed the opportunity for effective Parliamentary scrutiny in order to salvage their own timetable”.


That may not be damning but it certainly is not good.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am not sure whether that was a question or just an observation on what I said. But if the noble Lord is asking whether I will look at that report and take it seriously then, as he rightly says, it is a respected committee and of course we take its views very seriously, as indeed we do the views of noble Lords around the House.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the Minister did not respond to my request about the funding of the VOA. It seems at the moment unlikely to have sufficient resources to carry out the job that the Government wish it to do.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I apologise for missing that point. I am not sure whether it was made when I slipped out—it conceivably was—but it is a fair point anyway. If I may, I will write to the noble Lord about it and copy that to other noble Lords who participated in the debate.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for the comprehensive answer he has given to the Motion. I am also most grateful to all other noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I would never go so far as to try to question matters of reasonableness and accuracy, or to cross swords with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, especially as he is the Convenor of our Cross-Bench group—and a much cherished and honoured Convener as well.

However, two things come out of this. First, there is an urgent need to sort out CCA online. I am particularly grateful to the Minister for inviting me to discuss the process issues, because they are numerous. If I could arrange to come and see him with a team of people who could explain what the issues are and why they are so grindingly irritating to ratepayers, and give such a bad impression of the whole thing, then trying to clear the air on that would be very good.

Secondly, yes, the overall system needs fixing and there is to some degree a focus on these SIs in that context. But various things follow from that: there has to be proper finance for it overall—a point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham; there has to be a justification of the impost in absolute and relative terms, compared with other things, and we have lost sight of that a little; and there has to be in the change in the style of management. We are to some extent in this together and if the Government are serious in saying, “We are pro-business”, we cannot have a situation where businesses are set on edge by such a system. It is entirely negative and unnecessary, so there has to be a change in the style of management.

Part of the key to this is the transparency of information. As soon as people start thinking that information is being concealed from them, they become suspicious that there is some malevolence hiding behind it. The proof of the pudding will obviously be in the eating here. The whole point about a non-domestic tax, particularly since it affects so many businesses, is that it must rest on the taxpayer’s confidence that it is being dealt with efficiently, expeditiously and, above all, fairly. We should bear in mind that business rates have a long and cherished heritage. When I started dealing with rating matters back in 1975, it was one of the lowest cost and most efficient means of collecting money for local government purposes. If we do not get that right, the alternative is mounting further appeals. If this provision eliminates individual appeals and starts giving rise to a whole series of class actions, the impediment—the drag—that it will cause in the system will be the same.

This has been a very welcome opportunity to air these views. There are certain things that I dare say the Minister and I are probably destined never quite to agree on. It would be almost inconceivable if that were the case. I appreciate that an effort is being made here, but we need the financial resource and manpower to go into that to try to sort this out. If it is not sorted out, it will continue to cause us problems. Having said that, and with thanks to all noble Lords who have spoken and to the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Update on Grenfell Response and Building Safety

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, with the permission of the House, I would like to repeat the Statement that was made by the Secretary of State in the House of Commons today.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the latest progress following the tragic fire at Grenfell Tower 12 weeks ago. Over the summer the Prime Minister, the Housing Minister, the Minister for Policing and the Fire Service and I have been meeting with the people of north Kensington to make sure that their concerns are being listened to and, more importantly, acted upon. As a result, the Grenfell recovery task force has been appointed and started work. The process of removing control of properties from the tenant management organisation has begun; the remit of the public inquiry has been set; a temporary school has been built; and work is underway on the scaffolding that will surround the tower.

I pay particular tribute to the incredible team recovering and identifying the remains of those who died. They are doing an exceptionally difficult job in the most trying of circumstances. So far, they have identified 57 victims, hopefully bringing some measure of comfort to their loved ones. Obviously we would all like to see this process completed as quickly as possible, but I am sure that honourable Members appreciate the need for both accuracy and dignity as well as speed.

My Statement today will focus on two areas in which the House has previously shown particular interest: rehousing of residents and our building safety programme. However, I will be happy to answer as many questions as I can, not just on those topics but as many areas as I can cover, and my door is always open to anyone who wants to discuss the issues in greater detail.

On rehousing, 150 homes were lost to the fire. A number of households have said that they would like to be rehoused separately. As a result, there are currently 196 households from Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk in need of a new home. Everyone who was ready to engage with the process was offered a temporary home within three weeks of the disaster. Sixty-one households have accepted an offer, and 29 have moved in. Some 153 households, including all but two of those which suffered a bereavement, have had a face-to-face meeting with the team responsible for offering a choice of permanent homes, and 164 households have used the online allocation system to look at what permanent accommodation is available, with 127 having expressed an interest in one or more properties. Viewings are continuing this week. So far, 10 households have accepted offers and two have moved in. Twenty- one households that accepted offers on temporary accommodation with housing associations have asked for their tenancies to be made permanent. This is entirely fair, and the Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is working to make it happen.

The number of people who have moved into temporary or permanent homes continues to rise, but I know that the overall total is still low. One reason for the low take-up of temporary home offers is that some residents simply do not want to move twice and would prefer to stay where they are until a permanent home becomes available. Meanwhile, residents who have accepted an offer of a permanent home have been given the opportunity to make choices about furniture and so on before they move in. That obviously takes a little time too.

We are talking about peoples’ homes and lives here, and what matters to us is not ticking boxes but working at a pace that suits the needs and circumstances of individual residents. We do not want to rush anyone. That is why, at the request of residents, the council extended the expressions of interest period for permanent homes. I do not want to see anyone living in emergency accommodation for any longer than necessary, but nor do I want to see families forced to move or make snap decisions simply so that I have better numbers to report at the Dispatch Box.

I turn to testing and building safety. Of course, the issues raised by Grenfell extend well beyond Kensington. Across England there are 173 social housing buildings over 18 metres tall and clad with some form of aluminium composite material, or ACM. In late July, the Building Research Establishment began a series of large-scale fire safety tests on ACM cladding systems, comprising both the visible cladding and the internal insulation. The aim was to establish whether each system, when properly fitted, complied with the relevant Building Regulations guidance, BR 135. Three of the seven cladding systems tested were found to meet the criteria set out in BR 135. The other four fell short of what was required. The cladding systems that passed the test are in use on eight social housing towers. Systems that failed are in use on 165.

The owners of affected buildings have been given detailed advice drawn up by our independent expert advisory panel. This covers steps to ensure the safety of residents including, where necessary, removal of cladding. We have also been holding weekly update calls with local authorities, housing associations and other building owner groups. We have today published further advice that brings together all the results and the views of the expert panel on the implications for building owners. We will shortly be meeting local authorities and housing associations to discuss next steps. This will include the process by which we will ensure remedial work is carried out.

Since June we have made the BRE tests available to all private residential building owners. Although 89 buildings in England have had their cladding tested through those facilities, I continue to urge all private owners of similar blocks to submit samples for testing. I have also asked housing authorities to ensure that the same steps are taken for all private sector residential tower blocks in their areas, and to collect data so that we understand the scale of the issue and track remedial action.

Inspections carried out since the fire have also highlighted other safety issues related to building design. For example, structural engineers studying Southwark’s Ledbury estate said that strengthening work may be needed on blocks constructed using the concrete panel system that, in 1968, failed with devastating effect at Ronan Point. They also raised concerns about cracks that appeared cosmetic but could compromise fire safety compartmentation. We have been in contact with Southwark Council and the engineers to discuss the issues, and have engaged the Standing Committee on Structural Safety to advise on their implications. Meanwhile, all local authorities that own similar buildings have been advised to review their designs and check whether any strengthening work was properly carried out.

Separately, the British Board of Agrément has told us that, based on its investigations following incidents in Glasgow, some cladding systems may be designed and installed in such a way that they could fail in strong winds. We are not aware of any injuries caused by this kind of failure. However, we are taking advice from the expert panel and have written to building control bodies to draw their attention to the issues raised.

The wider issues of competence and certification will also be fed into Dame Judith Hackitt’s review of building safety, the terms of reference for which were announced last week. Finally, I have also established an industry response group, which will help the sectors required to improve building safety to co-ordinate their efforts.

For all the work being done, nothing can match the strength and determination shown by the people of north Kensington. We saw it in their initial response; we have seen it in the dignity and courage shown by survivors; we saw it in the deeply moving scenes at this year’s Notting Hill Carnival. For me, the biggest sign that the people of Kensington will not be beaten was the amazing results achieved by local children in their GCSEs and A-levels. I am thinking particularly of a remarkable young woman named Inês Alves. Just 16 years old, her family lost their home in the fire, but she still received a string of top grades. That included an A in chemistry, despite Inês sitting the examination just hours after fleeing the burning tower. Inês is due to start her A-levels this month. I wish her all the best. Her achievements should be an inspiration to us all. If a teenage schoolgirl who has suffered unimaginable trauma can do something so incredible, we in this House have no excuse for failing to do everything possible to support the victims of Grenfell and to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again. I hope that all honourable Members will join me in doing just that.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for their continued support for the general way forward. I am grateful for their thoughts and help on these issues, in the Chamber and elsewhere. It is absolutely right that we face them together. I recognise that there is an overlap in the points raised by the noble Lords. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said about the terrific work done by our emergency services, by the public sector, the faith sector, the voluntary sector and charities. Yesterday I met the organisation International Students House on another issue and found that it had given some money to a hardship fund for students who lived in the area. That is symptomatic of the public response across the board.

The noble Lord is right to say that we need to look forward. On housing, we are being guided by the principle of need, not speed. The allocation process may seem slow but I can confirm that nobody will be forced into accommodation which they deem unsuitable. It may be that it has been slow because we are determined to carry on with that approach. Both noble Lords raised the question of financial issues relating to remedial safety work. We have encouraged local authorities that face difficulties to come forward. I will write to noble Lords and correct these figures if they are wrong but I think that 27 have indicated some concern and six a concern that we are looking at very seriously.

Across the piece, over £14 million of public sector financial assistance has been committed to emergency payouts, help with housing, building safety and so on. That is in addition to any charitable donations. I am grateful for the point about ensuring that the charitable money is forthcoming, and I will take it away. Obviously, the Government do not interfere with the way in which charities operate but we are facilitating and encouraging a sensible approach: all the money should not come in one rush. I will cover that point in my letter.

Both noble Lords referred to the Ledbury estate in Southwark. Given the locality, I can understand the personal interest of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. This issue also affects the London Borough of Lewisham, as the noble Lord is probably aware. I will take this up in a circular letter to noble Lords, but I think there are 12 blocks which we have real concern about, most of which are in London. We are looking at another 30 which we are not so concerned about; they say they have done the strengthening work but we want to double-check that. The bulk of those are in the City of Westminster and are due to come down anyway. The expert advisory committee is also looking at this area of concern and at the issue of cladding coming off and the wind factor. This predates the dreadful Grenfell Tower episode and happened in Scotland, so there is a devolved element and we are working with Scotland to find out what we can. There is an obvious concern throughout the United Kingdom, so we are taking this forward at pace.

In relation to other public sector bodies, this affects education and health only, although that is serious enough. I double-checked that yesterday, but will pick it up in my letter. The cut-off point in the private sector is exactly the same at 18 metres. We have not made that obligatory but have written to local authorities encouraging them to check the numbers concerned in their areas. They have powers to enforce action and the Secretary of State has written to them on that issue in the last seven days.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about the number of households that have been offered permanent accommodation. It is small but I remind noble Lords that the Statement said that 21 families who are in housing association accommodation on a temporary basis have asked for that to be made permanent, so that is an increase. The noble Lord raised the wider issue of empty dwellings, which was touched on in the White Paper. I know that this is of concern and the point was well made: I will cover it in my letter.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the question of the interplay of the different reviews. I thank him for welcoming the Hackitt review, which is due to produce an interim report this autumn and a final one next spring. They will obviously need to liaise in relation to the police inquiry. We are at arm’s length from that; it is a matter for the police and the Government will not—for understandable reasons—get directly involved. The inquiries are sensitive to making sure that toes are not trodden on and that matters dovetail. The public inquiry is having a preliminary meeting on 14 September, next week. Sir Martin Moore-Bick has said that he wants to come up with a preliminary report by Easter 2018. The 18 metres issue is contained in planning regulations concerned with fire evacuation timings. It is rather gruesome to think of it in those terms, but there has to be a cut-off point because the danger accelerates as one has higher and higher buildings. It is contained in legislation at the moment but the point is well made and there is no doubt that this will be looked at by both Dame Judith and the public inquiry.

If I have missed anything else I will pick it up in my letter. I thank noble Lords for their continued support.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that I was a Minister in the Department for Communities and Local Government from 2010 to 2012. I thank the Minister for the Statement and welcome the reviews which have been announced. I thank him for the way he has communicated with Members of this House about the terrible situation and what has to be done to deal with its aftermath.

I will pick up two or three specific points. The Minister mentioned that tests had been carried out on 89 privately owned buildings. He did not give a breakdown of the results of those tests in the same way that he did with the public sector buildings. Is he able to do that or undertake to provide noble Lords with them to give us some idea of the scope of the problem at a national level, not just in the public sector?

The primary reason that much of this cladding was put on was to improve the energy performance of these buildings; it was not simply decorative or cosmetic. That implies that where this insulation is being taken off for very understandable and proper safety reasons, residents around the country in buildings like these will be exposed to higher heating bills and less satisfactory living circumstances. We are coming very rapidly to the winter. It is not likely that replacements can be found for this winter. Again, I urge the Minister to consider how we can find a speedy replacement that is satisfactory and restores the thermal insulation value of the homes which have been stripped of this material. Linked to that is a question about the capacity of the industry to mount a major programme of stripping this material and to supply whatever is specified to replace it in time to reduce or mitigate the exposure of tenants and residents living in these blocks to the worsening conditions that they would otherwise suffer.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, very much indeed for that very constructive contribution. I should have made it clear that all of the 89 buildings have failed. If I did not do so, I apologise. I do not think that was stated in the Statement. The energy performance point raised by the noble Lord is fair and valid. Obviously, safety, quite rightly, has to have primacy. However, he is right that we want to honour our Paris climate change commitments. We want to make sure that these buildings are as energy efficient and green as possible. We will raise that concern with BEIS, which is the Ministry where climate change rests these days. However, I repeat that safety must have primacy.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to a letter that he was sending to local authorities about their responsibilities with regard to the private sector. Can we see a copy of that letter, please?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, a minor correction: the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is right that I referred to a letter but it was sent by the Secretary of State. However, I will endeavour to ensure that either the letter, or the relevant part of it, if it contains other sensitive matters, is circulated. I will seek to include that in the circular letter I am sending round.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, as a resident and former councillor in north Kensington, I join the Minister, my noble friend Lord Kennedy and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in paying tribute to the resilience and courage of the local community. My question relates to rehousing locally. Do residents have a right to be rehoused locally? What does local mean in this context, recognising that Grenfell Tower is fairly close to the north of the borough, so one should not look only at north Kensington? It is close to other boroughs and north of the Harrow road and clearly there are areas ripe for development north of the canal, so what does local rehousing mean in this context? Is it agreed that families with children in school seem to have a higher right than individuals who may be more mobile?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, very much for his usual characteristic, constructive approach in seeking to address this as representatives across the board. On locality, we have said that we will rehouse affected families from Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk in either the borough of Kensington and Chelsea or in an adjoining borough, so we have widened the issue in the way he suggests. However, I come back to the point that families are able to say that a particular home is not suitable. They will no doubt want to take their children’s education into consideration. We have also sought to provide a means of concentrating on bereaved families as the first set of families we want to rehouse. However, we are obviously taking into account as many of the factors that the noble Lord raised as possible to make sure that we deal with needs as they arise.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, in an otherwise comprehensive reply to the Front Benches, I did not detect—I am sorry if I missed it—a reply to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about a broader review of social housing, to which the Prime Minister made reference in her July Statement. Can the Minister say more about that?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord. I think he is right: I missed it. It was in my notes to cover. I certainly can confirm that Sir Martin Moore-Bick did not seek to make that issue part of the inquiry for the very valid reason that it is only right as regards the tenants, the bereaved families and the people of the estate that we focus pretty much laser-like on the block. However, the Prime Minister has said that we will look at the position in relation to social housing and review it. The Housing Minister wants to look at that and will talk to organisations and tenants about it. As noble Lords can understand, at the moment he is under immense time and emotional pressure in dealing with this issue but it is very much in the in-tray. However, it is slightly separate from the specific issue of Grenfell Tower.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I follow the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. I do not want this point to be considered a complaint on my part about the correct approach taken by the Government that requests and demands in relation to housing should be satisfied, that people’s needs are understood and that there are very special needs in this circumstance. Are the Government or the local authority keeping data on the reasons for rejecting offers of housing, as I think that might feed into further consideration of demands and requirements for social housing? I was struck by the very localised views of a number of the displaced tenants who see their own community as very narrow. They do not want to go over the border to Westminster, even though geographically it is very close, as they feel that it is a very different community.

My second question is about the different issue of the inquiry. There is much strong feeling locally about the need for diversity among those who, as locals see it, are in charge of the inquiry. I heard Sir Martin Moore-Bick make the point very clearly and correctly that there was no panel at the point when he was accused of having a panel which was not representative. Can the noble Lord tell the House about any progress on the composition of the inquiry, perhaps on a panel or assessors to assist the chair?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness for those two questions. I assume, although I do not know, that the royal borough is retaining data about the reasons for turning down offers. I will certainly raise that with it. That is a constructive suggestion; I am sure that records are being kept. As we know, some common reasons for refusing offers are that people want to move only once rather than twice and fear the trauma associated with moving. One can understand people wanting to take time over this but I will look at that issue because those comments are absolutely right. In relation to the public inquiry and the diversity issue, that is a matter for Sir Martin Moore-Bick, but certainly we are very open to assessors and would go so far as to encourage that. I do not want to steal any thunder from the public inquiry and indeed I do not know what he will have to say about that issue but I am sure that something will be said at the first preliminary meeting on 14 September, a week on Thursday.

[Lord Faulks (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, I must declare an interest as a resident of the borough. I have a connection with the council in that my wife is a councillor and was a cabinet member with responsibility for schools at the time of this appalling fire. I welcome what the noble Lord said about rehousing and how immensely complex this process is. He rightly says that this should not be a question of simply getting numbers for the Dispatch Box but making sure that all individuals have their needs satisfactorily addressed. Those needs will be complex and very different. This process is going to be extremely expensive, of course. Perhaps my noble friend can tell the House whether the Government are assisting in any way and in what respect with the extremely significant cost of rehousing.

Secondly, can the Minister confirm that despite the unfortunate criticism of the appointment and the suitability of Sir Martin for discharging the duty, he has the full confidence of the Government? Those who are familiar with his work have every reason to believe that he will perform his job with extreme diligence and reach a satisfactory outcome.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend, and will perhaps deal with the second question first because it has a more straightforward response. Sir Martin Moore-Bick has the total support of the Government. He is already tackling these issues at pace and we have every reason to suppose that he is the right man for the job. We look forward to the work that he is going to put in on this immensely challenging inquiry.

My noble friend referred to the complex process of rehousing and the costs. Much of this, such as hotel accommodation, will be picked up under the Bellwin formula. As I indicated, the Government are looking at specific requests made by local authorities in relation to the issue more widely. A lot of the cost for Kensington and Chelsea will be picked up by the Bellwin formula.

I think it is right to say a corner has been turned and progress is being made on what is a horrendous situation. I think people are now understandably looking to the future although, obviously, in very difficult circumstances.

Brexit: UK-Irish Relations

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, in addition to the best wishes expressed by other noble Lords, I wish the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, a very speedy recovery and return. We very much miss his wisdom and good humour. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, I hope that he will be back very shortly.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jay, very much indeed for his presentation of the case expressed in a very thoughtful paper. I apologise to him and to others who have expressed very reasonable chastisement, including the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord Carlile, the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, and my noble friend Lord Lexden. Part of the delay can be explained by the very difficult political situation—elections and so on—but that does not excuse it. I totally accept that and apologise on behalf of the Government.

I set out the Government’s commitment to maintaining and strengthening the unique relationship between the United Kingdom and Ireland, which has been expressed by so many Peers in this debate. We are indissolubly tied by centuries of history, geography and trade—and, as many noble Lords have said, familial ties. The present very close relationship is something that the Government welcome, cherish and want to nurture. I did not recognise one or two descriptions of poor relations with the Irish Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar. That is not recognised by the Government; the Prime Minister has a very good working relationship with him, and they met very early after his appointment. I think that his first meeting with a leader from another member state was with the Prime Minister, and she has been very clear that she wants to see the relationship between the United Kingdom and Ireland deepen and strengthen after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. Furthermore, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland maintains a regular dialogue with the Irish Government, and particularly with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Simon Coveney, as well as with Frances Fitzgerald, the deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Justice and Equality. Of course, discussions are held at official level as well. There is a very warm relationship, and we share many objectives in this area. In particular, there is really not a cigarette paper between us on the desire for a frictionless, seamless, invisible border, which we have at the moment.

I turn to express some general thoughts about the Government’s approach and the recent position paper on the Northern Ireland and Ireland situation, published on 16 August, to which many noble Lords have referred—some even in a complimentary way, expressing agreement with the objectives and four key priorities that we set out in the papers, upholding the Belfast agreement in all its parts. In that context, I welcome and acknowledge with thanks the massive role played by the noble Lord, Lord Hain—I thank him for his kind comments—and the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, in relation to their ability to bring parties together in Northern Ireland in a lasting way. That has been tremendously important and remains very much valued in Northern Ireland.

We want to ensure protection for citizenship rights established under the Belfast agreement. Like the Government in Ireland, we stand resolutely behind the Belfast agreement in all its respects, without question. We want to maintain the common travel area and associated rights, and to avoid a hard border for the movement of goods. We want to preserve north-south and east-west co-operation, including on energy. I hope to say something on that later, if I have time.

That is the bedrock of where we are in relation to the Belfast agreement and it is central to ongoing good UK/Irish relations. This was referred to by many noble Lords during the debate, including my noble friend Lord Suri and the noble Lords, Lord Davies, Lord Carlile, Lord Hannay, Lord Cotter and Lord Dubs. I associate myself with some points made by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, about dispensing with logic and looking at what can be done in a unique situation. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, also referred to the need for flexibility and imagination in bringing this to a happy conclusion. I make no apology for repeating that our constructive relationship with Ireland, also referred to by my noble friend Lord Lexden, is central to how we feel.

Many noble Lords who have particular experience of this, including the noble Lords, Lord Murphy, Lord Hain and Lord Whitty, spoke of our responsibility to get the political parties in Northern Ireland—which share the responsibility—back in a working Assembly. I agree that this has to be central. All possibilities as to how we can help to bring that about are looked at by the Government on a regular, daily basis. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has said, the Secretary of State is at the moment heavily involved in seeking to bring together the parties in Northern Ireland. They must look to their responsibilities on this key issue, which is more lasting than some of the others which seem to be holding up progress. Getting all the political parties, not just the two major ones, involved is of overwhelming importance and is central to what we seek to do. My noble friends Lord Trimble and Lord Empey and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, also referred to the intricate nature of these discussions and the importance attaching to them.

One or two noble Lords, perhaps including the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, referred to the progress made on citizenship rights. Noble Lords may be unaware that even Michel Barnier, who is not normally associated with loosely using the word “progress”, is on the record as saying that the Brexit discussions on the Northern Ireland/Ireland situation have been fruitful. It was always recognised that the discussion on customs arrangements would take longer. There are clearly more involved areas here and intricate discussions need to be gone into. That will take time, but we should not lose sight of the fact that all the parties involved—the other 27 EU member states; Ireland; the UK Government; and the political parties in Northern Ireland, which I regret do not currently have the voice that we need them to have—share the same goal. There is no material difference in what we want and that is a pretty good starting point to have. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that we have a pragmatic approach here which is likely to succeed. We have a shared interest with Ireland and Northern Ireland. My noble friend Lord Howell made the point that 90% of goods going to Europe go through England and Wales. We have perhaps not acknowledged the role of Wales and we should: an awful lot goes through Holyhead and Fishguard. That is significant and important and will not be lost on the remaining member states of the EU. There is work to be done there and a positive, pragmatic approach, which the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, touched on, is important.

Many noble Lords referred to the importance of preserving the frictionless, invisible border that we have at the moment. The noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord Kilclooney, referred to the fact that they live very close to it, so they speak with great personal experience. Two things were brought home to me some years ago after the Belfast agreement when I was staying with friends in Enniskillen that influenced my approach to this issue, and I think this is shared by other government Ministers. One was when I said to the person with whom I was staying in Enniskillen, as we were going into a pub there—I probably put my foot straight in it—“Is this a Protestant pub or a Catholic pub?”. She turned to me, her eyes filled with tears and she said, “It doesn’t matter anymore”. That is what all of us seek to preserve in Northern Ireland. The other point that was brought home to me on the same visit was when we were going south from Enniskillen into County Cavan and I asked, “Have we crossed the border yet?”. She said, “I don’t know. We will only know when we get to a petrol filling station and see whether the prices are in euros or sterling”. That is something we have to preserve. It certainly influences my approach and, I think, that of the Government as we know just how important this is.

I do not seek to minimise the fact, and neither do the Government, that there is a lot more to be done on this issue. Nobody is saying that we are home and dry on it. We are not remotely home and dry on it, but we have made progress and that is not a bad position to be in.

I certainly have loads to learn in this role, but this point came home to me again in the summer when I was in Clogher, which for the uninitiated is a village in County Tyrone which has a massively important agricultural show in the summer. People come to the show from across the border, which almost does not exist, as well as from the local community. When you speak to them, you do not know initially whether they are from the south or the north. They say, “It is vital that we maintain the present position whereby people can come here from across the whole of Ireland”. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, mentioned the importance of the agri-food sector. The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Whitty, talked about how agriculture is central to this sector. The Government are very conscious that there are discussions to be had to ensure that we get this right and preserve the position as near as possible to how it is now. That is certainly not without challenges.

I will ensure that this very good debate is sent to the DExEU Ministers so that they can pick up the extremely effective points that have been made. That is important. I will write to noble Lords, picking up points that have been made during the debate. Some specific issues were addressed to me which I will pick up in the circular letter. I will take away the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Carlile, so that they get a more meaningful response than I am able to give from the Dispatch Box this evening.

The overriding point to which I come back was made by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs—namely, that we need to set high ambitions. Logic does not necessarily determine this. It did not necessarily determine the success of the Belfast agreement. We need to be ambitious and seek to do what may now seem close to impossible. We need to ensure that we do two things. I can understand the very strong feelings of many noble Lords about Brexit—I campaigned strongly to remain, so I know where they are coming from on that—but we have to move this on and decide how we cope with the fact that we are coming out of the EU. How do we square the circle on this and seek to preserve, as closely as we possibly can, the border as it is now with all the ramifications that has for excellent north-south relations? Those relations have improved immeasurably in our lifetimes but certainly in the last 10 and 20 years: indeed, they are scarcely recognisable. We need to ensure that the economies of both the north and the south are protected as well as that of the rest of the UK. That is something—which, as I say, is a really good starting point—that all parties want to preserve.

If it has not come across that this is really central to the Government, let me restate that, as the Prime Minister early on did make it clear, this is central to what the Government want: not just to protect Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom, though that is important, but to protect southern Ireland. She recognised then that there was a particular interest in protecting Ireland, and we do owe responsibilities to our nearest neighbours and close allies, so that is something that is also desirable. The Irish border is not a pawn—I think that word was used, perhaps in the context of a question. It is vital to us; it is a prime priority. We do need to seek a bespoke deal of the sort that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs was hinting at, with flare, flexibility and imagination, as was touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, in his excellent introduction.

I thank noble Lords for their participation in what, I think, has been a very good debate, not without emotion, which I fully understand. I undertake to write to pick up the points that I have not been able to cover in any detail in this response. I assure noble Lords that this debate, which has been an excellent one, will be passed to DExEU Ministers for their consideration.

[Lord Empey]

If my noble friend is writing to noble Lords, will he give an assurance that he will address the issue of who speaks for Northern Ireland, and what input there is going to be as we go through the Brexit negotiations? This is a matter which I raised, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and a number of other noble Lords. Who is going to feed in that response, and will the Minister undertake to address that?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that. Without going through all the things that I have not touched on, and giving separate details of what I will set out in the letter, that is an important point and I recognised that he made it. In short, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State, in the vacuum that exists with the absence of an Assembly and power-sharing Executive, will be doing that. That does not detract from the fact that we are working hard to make sure that the power-sharing Executive are brought back as soon as possible. In the meantime, work is being done at official level and at ministerial level from the Westminster Government.

Grenfell Tower and Fire Safety: Update

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to repeat a Statement made by the Secretary of State for the Department for Communities and Local Government in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Five weeks have now passed since the tragedy at Grenfell Tower. Nothing that has happened in those five weeks will have diminished the grief of those who lost loved ones. Nothing will have negated the trauma of those who lost their homes. But across the public sector, in local and central government, in the emergency services, in hospitals, in schools and more, dedicated public servants have been doing all they can to deal with the aftermath and help the community to recover.

Over the past five weeks, the Government have endeavoured to keep the House up to date with those developments. This is the third Oral Statement I have made on the subject. The House has also heard from the Prime Minister and the Housing Minister, who also answered questions in Westminster Hall before Parliament formally returned. There has been a full debate in the Commons, four Written Statements, and a number of letters sent to all Members. My aim today is to provide an update before the House rises and another opportunity for honourable Members to ask questions, and I would also like to let the House know exactly what action we will be taking over the summer.

The police continue to list 80 people as either dead or missing presumed dead; 39 victims have so far been formally identified, with 39 inquests opened by the coroner and adjourned pending the public inquiry and police investigation. Two adults remain in hospital. I know that some local residents remain concerned that the number of people in the tower on the night has been underestimated. I would continue to urge anyone with further information to come forward. We have been very clear that we do not mind if those affected were subletting or have immigration issues. All we care about is getting to the truth.

Turning to the rehoming programme, everyone who lost their home in Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk has been made at least one offer of good-quality, fully-furnished temporary accommodation in the local area. As of 10 o’clock this morning, 35 of these have been accepted and 10 families have moved in. Those numbers are slightly down on the figures that were published recently as some people have changed their minds, as they are perfectly entitled to do. Where residents have turned down an offer, we are finding suitable alternatives to offer them. Where residents are not yet ready to engage with the process, do not want to make a decision right now, or would rather wait for a permanent home to be offered, we will respect that. At DCLG questions this week, the quality of the accommodation being offered was raised. I would like to repeat the Housing Minister’s offer to the Opposition Front Bench to visit some of these homes so they can inspect them for themselves. I do not believe they have yet taken up that offer, but it still stands. In the longer term, we are continuing to seek out and secure suitable permanent accommodation. The first such homes for Grenfell families will be ready within days, and specialist teams are ready to start matching them to families and start making offers.

On the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea recovery task force, at the town hall, we are continuing preparations for the return of control of the recovery effort from Gold Command to Kensington and Chelsea Council. I have spoken at length with the new leader of the council and been very clear that Gold will not hand over the reins until it is clear that the council is ready and able to cope. We saw last night the very raw anger that some in the community still feel towards the council. It is entirely understandable. As the Prime Minister herself has said, the initial response from the local authority was simply not good enough. There is not a lot of trust there, not a lot of confidence, and that is why, once Kensington and Chelsea Council takes over the recovery operation, it will do so under the supervision of the independent Grenfell recovery task force. It is important to stress that the role of the task force is not to investigate the causes of the fire or to apportion blame—that is for the public inquiry and the police investigation—rather, it is there to provide advice and support and see to it that the council does the job that is required of it. We are in the process of finalising the task force membership and I hope to make an announcement soon. I can confirm that the handover from Gold to Kensington and Chelsea will not happen until the task force is up and running.

Away from Kensington, the fire safety testing programme continues. We now believe that no more than 208 local authority and housing association residential blocks over 80 metres tall have been fitted with aluminium composite material cladding; 189 of these have had cladding samples tested by the Building Research Establishment, been tested by proxy or have already taken their cladding down. None of them has passed the limited combustibility test. Samples from a further 12 towers have been submitted this week and are now being tested. The BRE has yet to see samples from seven towers, all of them managed by housing associations; a month after the tests began, that is simply unacceptable, and I expect to see them all submitting samples without any further delay.

On the advice of the independent Expert Advisory Panel on Building Safety, the BRE is now undertaking system testing that will help establish how combinations of different types of ACM panels with different types of insulation behave in a fire. An explanatory note, setting out the process and the timetable for further advice, will be published shortly. It has taken a short time to design and set up the test, but we expect the first results to be available next week. As soon as results are available, we will share them first with local authorities and housing associations that have confirmed that their properties are clad in the same combination of materials that are used in that test. We will, of course, share them with the local fire and rescue service. The results will provide further information that building owners and their professional advisers can use to take decisions about what, if any, remedial action is required.

Although legal responsibility for fire safety enforcement lies with local authorities, I have the power to direct an authority to consider these test results as part of their duty to keep housing conditions under review. If necessary, I will not hesitate to use this power, which could lead to enforcement action being taken against a landlord if a fire risk is not dealt with. I hope that it will not come to that.

On the public inquiry, Sir Martin Moore-Bick is continuing his preparatory work. I welcome his decision to extend by two weeks the consultation period for the terms of reference. While we are all anxious for the inquiry to get under way, it is important that the remit is appropriate and that everyone affected has an opportunity to share their views.

On updates over the summer, with the House due to rise later today, this is the last Statement that I will be making before the Summer Recess, but work on the recovery effort and testing regime will obviously continue at pace while Parliament is not sitting, and my department will be writing regular letters to all Members to keep them abreast of progress.

Finally, I pay tribute to the many Members on both sides of the House who have assisted with the emergency response and recovery effort so far. Members have provided insight, support, scrutiny and a voice for their constituents, both in public and behind the scenes.

The weeks, months and even years ahead will be unimaginably difficult for those caught up in the fire and those who lost family and friends. There is nothing that any of us can do to bring back those who died or to erase the trauma of that terrible night. But I am sure that the whole House shares my determination to take care of those affected by the fire, to make sure the truth comes out and that justice is done, and to see to it that a tragedy like this never happens again”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I, too, am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for the promise of regular further updates over the summer. We join in the thanks to all the rescue services for their work. This was a devastating but avoidable catastrophe, and we need to get to the truth of what happened and guarantee the highest level of support for the community.

There is clearly a need to find workable terms of reference for the inquiry, but I have concluded that we also need a mechanism for the parallel issues of the supply of affordable housing, how tenants are treated and provision for displaced and affected residents, with the same level of public involvement and the same status and respect. I hope that the Government might agree with that and find a means of doing it.

The Statement confirms that the independent expert advisory panel on building safety, whose work is critical and urgent, is undertaking a new system of testing ACM panels, which is clearly needed. We have heard that the first results are due next week. There has been a catastrophic failure in building control, either in the regulations themselves or in their implementation—or both. We need to know urgently which it is and then implement actions across the country to meet the recommendations made.

I will raise two issues, the first around emergency planning and the second around other towers and testing, both mentioned in the Statement. Two weeks ago, I asked a Written Question of the Minister, to which I got a reply yesterday. My question was whether Her Majesty’s Government,

“plan to audit the emergency plans of local authorities to ensure that they are up-to-date and robust”.

The reply I got yesterday said:

“The Government currently does not plan to audit local authorities’ emergency plans. Local authorities, as category 1 responders under the Civil Contingency Act 2004, are subject to the full set of civil protection duties and are best placed to develop appropriate emergency plans based on local risks and needs”.


Clearly, it did not work in the case of Kensington and Chelsea. Might the Minister look at that again? The Government should not assume that no other local authority has similar problems. There is a responsibility on central government to make sure that local authorities’ emergency plans are in place and robust.

It is clear that the Government have accepted that Kensington and Chelsea cannot yet take over the recovery operation by itself, and that when it does, it will be under the supervision of the independent Grenfell recovery task force. That is the right decision, but I hope that the Government will look carefully at this to ensure that the situation that occurred in Kensington and Chelsea cannot happen elsewhere.

On the issue of other towers and testing, the Statement says that,

“no more than 228 local authority and housing association residential blocks over 18 metres tall have been fitted with aluminium composite material cladding”.

That is a very high number indeed. The first question the Government need to answer speedily is whether or not the material was within building regulations—in other words, large numbers of buildings have been using this material, but should they have done so? Secondly, can the Minister explain why the height of 18 metres is so material? I am two metres tall; 18 metres is nine times my height. I am not clear where this figure has come from and why this material is deemed to be safe on high-rise buildings under 18 metres high, bearing in mind that none of the material in the blocks so far has passed the limited combustibility test that has taken place.

Finally, the Government have made it clear that when the results are available to the new system of testing they will be shared,

“first with local authorities and housing associations”,

which are immediately concerned, and,

“with the local fire and rescue service”.

Towards the end of the Statement it says that the Secretary of State has “the power to direct” a local housing authority,

“to consider these test results as part of their duty to keep housing conditions under review”.

There is then a statement that the power may well be used and enforcement action could be,

“taken against a landlord if a fire risk is not dealt with”.

Of course, that would include all fire risks within a building. I am not sure that what the Statement says is strong enough in law, because it indicates that the local housing authority has the final decision. It is not good enough simply to direct an authority to consider the test results. They should be implementing the test results, and if resource is required to do that, Her Majesty’s Government may well have to find the resource to do it.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for their contributions. I will try to deal with the various points they made. I thank them very much for echoing the thanks to our dedicated public servants across the piece for all they have done and the support that we continue to give them. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, mentioned the fire brigade in particular, and I am happy to say how important its work is and how much we as a Government respect and value what it does. I am grateful to both noble Lords for the continuing support, because this issue unites us and does not divide us.

I will try to deal with some of the points that were raised. First, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke about the quality of accommodation and the issue of rehoming. We have to respect the trauma that these families have been through, which often makes it difficult for them to make a decision, even over a period of weeks, about their accommodation. In many cases they are not certain where they want to settle and we respect that. We have made offers of temporary accommodation to all families. Some have taken those offers up and some have not, but from what I can see I am certainly satisfied that the accommodation has been of an outstanding quality in all cases.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke about the task force and the work of gold command being vital—I absolutely agree with that—and the importance of the council winning back trust. I thank him for what he said about how the leader of the council, Elizabeth Campbell, is trying to win back trust. She is reaching out genuinely to all people who have been victims and to the opposition parties. That is certainly the approach that the Government want and support. The noble Lord talked about outstanding samples that needed testing. The number is actually seven; perhaps the noble Lord’s figure is slightly out of date. It has come tumbling down over the last 48 hours, so seven tower blocks—

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I had a different number.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is right to query that. Until shortly before I came in, the figure was still being updated, but the Secretary of State used the figure seven in the Commons, which is the one that I repeated. Of course, it is still important that we bear down with regard to those seven outstanding tower blocks that have yet to be tested; it is important that the housing associations comply with the request to bring forward their samples.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked about the power to issue directions—I think the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also referred to that—which is under the Housing Act 2004. We have been careful to check what legal powers we have, and those are the powers as stated. The inquiry may want to look at this—I am sure it will—but that is the power as set out. Both noble Lords made a point, understandably and rightly, about updates, and I will certainly ensure that the updates provided to MPs in the Commons are also sent to noble Lords. I will also address in correspondence any points that noble Lords want to raise over the summer, and I will copy it to Peers. If it is felt that it would be appropriate and helpful, and it may well be, I am willing to give an update briefing and answer questions when we come back in September, as happened during the earlier briefing.

On points made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in addition to those I have tried to cover, the supply of affordable housing and permanent housing is important. Kensington and Chelsea will make a statement on this shortly. The council will want to share the housing commitment to residents who lived in Grenfell Tower first with those affected, but it will certainly be available shortly to noble Lords.

System testing has been recommended by the expert panel, and that is being carried forward, starting next week. Once that information has been conveyed to housing associations and local authorities, it will be conveyed more widely.

Regarding the cut-off height of 18 metres, I am not an expert on this but I believe it is used very often in relation to tower blocks. I think that fire and rescue above 18 metres is demonstrably more difficult but, again, I suspect that is something the inquiry will be looking at.

On the terms of reference, the consultation will be open until 28 July—that is, a week tomorrow—to gain as broad a consensus as possible on what should be looked at. Once that has been completed, we will hope to settle the terms of reference very quickly.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the point to which the noble Lord has just referred—the decision to extend the period for agreeing the terms of reference. Anything that can be done to defuse the high state of tension that exists at present is wise. One would like this inquiry to proceed in a relatively calm atmosphere so that the evidence can be listened to without interruption and with proper attention to detail. However, perhaps the noble Lord can inform the House on one or two other matters relating to the preparation of the inquiry.

First, have steps been taken to identify somebody who might be invited to act as counsel to the inquiry? I suspect that that will be an extremely important element in the preparation of the evidence before the inquiry begins. Secondly, has thought been given to where the inquiry might be held, bearing in mind that large numbers of people will want to attend it and the premises will have to be large enough to accommodate them, as well as to provide a secure position for those who wish to attend, for those giving evidence and, indeed, for the judge himself? Thirdly, can we have any insight into the timing, bearing in mind that the point has been made from the very beginning about the need for an interim report to be made available as soon as possible so that the details of the evidence that might lead to steps to prevent a repetition can be brought into the open as soon as possible, and also bearing in mind that the inquiry cannot begin until the evidence has been sufficiently well prepared for the judge to hear it and assess it in the first place?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord very much for that contribution and for the very helpful points about defusing the high state of tension that exists and has existed from early on—for very understandable reasons. I think efforts are being made, with some success, to defuse the tension. The judge leading the inquiry is consulting local residents and residents’ representatives about the terms of reference, and it is right to do so. I am sure that the judge will have views about the timing of the inquiry and where it is to be held, and those will be taken into account. If it is acceptable to the noble and learned Lord, I will write to him on the more detailed and relevant points concerning the conduct of the inquiry.

He is right about an interim report, which I think we would be hoping to see, although, again, ultimately that is for the judge leading the inquiry to determine. Because of the need for urgent action, we set up the independent expert advisory panel under Sir Ken Knight. He has already given a lead, as has the rest of the committee, in relation to, for example, the testing and other important matters. However, the Secretary of State is very well aware of the need for early action on the building regulations and fire safety measures, probably in parallel with the inquiry.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I may follow up a question from my noble and learned friend Lord Hope. Will the interim panel have adequate powers within its terms of reference so that, if some of the questions that have been emerging in the press about, for example, electrical safety, power surges and so on arise, it will be able to request all local authorities to undertake electrical safety reviews in similar blocks? It would be an unimaginable tragedy for a fire of a similar nature to occur while the inquiry was going on. Although one does not wish in any way to pre-empt the finding of the inquiry, there is a need to defuse tension, rather than risk the possibility of the people who have suffered so terribly feeling that their concerns are being put off until the outcome of the inquiry. Therefore, I wonder whether it would be wise for a series of interim reports to be released as and when the overall inquiry felt that that was appropriate and helpful in the interests of safety in the future.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness very much for her, as always, very helpful suggestions. When the Secretary of State presented the Statement to the Commons, electrical safety was raised and he undertook to discuss it with the Secretary of State for BEIS, and I think that that will be helpful. That is a very important point. Of course the inquiry should look at these issues. In addition, the interim panel—it is an advisory panel—will be able to make urgent recommendations. It will be a very open process and we are very keen for the panel to bring up important issues. That has been the approach throughout; certainly it has not been to push issues away. The seriousness of what has happened at Grenfell and its wider implications are recognised across government, as they are across all political parties, as demanding immediate and thoroughgoing action. Therefore, we would welcome any necessary suggestions from the advisory committee.

[Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister give any clarity about what will happen to residents who accept permanent accommodation? I have been told by some community volunteers that residents are concerned that, although they may get help in the first year after moving in, they may not be able to afford the rents after that because they will go up and it will be beyond their ability to pay. This is causing some of the reluctance to accept offers.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question and the opportunity to provide some clarity on that. When permanent accommodation is offered—and, as we will see, it will be—it will be offered on exactly the same terms as the earlier accommodation. We are absolutely clear that it will be on exactly the same terms. Therefore, there is no reason to be concerned on the basis that the noble Baroness has set out.

[Lord Paul (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, a lot of money is being collected by the charities. Is there any way of knowing how it is being distributed and whether it is being distributed fairly?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord very much for his question, which provides me with the opportunity to thank the charities that have provided massive support and have been very involved in the charitable effort, foremost among which are the British Red Cross and the Evening Standard Dispossessed Fund, although many others have also raised an enormous amount of money. I know that the distribution is being co-ordinated by the Charity Commission to make sure that it is done in the most effective way. Financial assistance and donated goods are being distributed. For their part, the Government have been very clear—and I restate it—that whatever is received through charitable giving will have no impact at all on benefits. We want to be absolutely clear about that.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as being involved in the Hazards Forum, which is an organisation of all the engineering institutions dealing with hazards. It has met over several years on different issues. Similarly, there is a scientific organisation which I know about called the Science Council, which could deal with some of the very complex issues involving physics and chemistry. These bodies have not been directly requested to give their input. A scientifically interesting but challenging feature of the whole problem of Grenfell is the quite wide range of scientific and technological issues that have arisen. Equally, given some of the scientific results of more recent tragedies—some people have asked how this compares with the huge King’s Cross fire, which was studied very well and from which practical methods evolved—I feel that parts of the scientific and technical infrastructures could contribute more and I hope that the expert panel will make use of them.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord. He has unequalled expertise in this area. I am sure the judge and the inquiry would welcome input from the bodies mentioned by the noble Lord. Clearly the parallel he mentioned with the King’s Cross fire—and possibly also the Bradford City football ground fire—would have an impact on the inquiry. The Prime Minister early on suggested—this has been echoed since—that we should have, and will take up, a civil disaster impact forum for dealing with this kind of situation. No two awful tragedies are the same but there are clearly lessons that can be learned and passed on in relation to future dreadful incidents.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for not being here for the start of the Minister’s Statement, but I have read it. I noted that he mentioned the tower blocks owned by housing associations that have not submitted to testing. In the other place, the Secretary of State confirmed that these were all freehold buildings and recognised that housing associations, despite many attempts, are having difficulty in getting freeholders to comply. Is there anything the Government can do to persuade the freeholders that, in the interests of the safety of the tenants in these buildings, they should comply? I declare an interest as chair of the National Housing Federation.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness, who I know has great expertise in this area. The position of these seven is, as indicated by the noble Baroness, not straightforward. We remain ready to help, if we can, if there are issues that need resolution. As I say, the number has come tumbling down over the past 48 hours. There were many more housing association properties that had not fulfilled the testing requirement until the past 48 hours. It may be that these will be dealt with in short order but we certainly are in touch to make sure that the number comes down to zero.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the House will allow me some discretion because, like my noble friend, I was not able to be here for the start of the Statement. Can the Minister comment on the potential frustration that could be caused by matters that become sub judice? Will there be a way for issues that emerge to be responded to in public while the inquiry is taking place?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is right to raise a difficulty that often exists in this kind of complex situation. The fact that the inquiry is likely to go on for a considerable time will make it that much greater. We are aware of that difficulty and trying to work within it. Obviously there are ongoing criminal investigations, the public inquiry, which is shortly to start, and the work of the independent expert panel. As a country that believes in the rule of law, we do not want to compromise the position of people who will end up in court as defendants. We have to work within that situation and are aware of it. Certainly the judge’s experience as a judge when he is chairing the inquiry will be helpful in that regard.

Business Rates Hardship Fund

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest, as a member of my family works in the retail trade.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government confirmed local authority allocations for the discretionary relief scheme in April 2017. This enabled councils to press on with implementing their local schemes. We have been clear that we expect authorities to provide this support to hard-pressed businesses without delay. Ministers have written to council leaders clearly setting out this expectation. Some authorities have already issued reduced bills, and we continue to urge other councils to follow suit as quickly as possible.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, is it not a fact that very few councils have implemented this? Here we are, a third of the way through the year, and that is having a huge effect on cash flow. In certain areas, the bailiffs are going in. Against that background, what further action will Her Majesty’s Government take to make sure that this all happens in the next month? Surely, that is not asking too much. After all, if we believe that the high street is vital to our economy, perhaps we should look further and reflect that it is no good for this country to have the highest business rates in Europe. If we are going to have successful small businesses and a successful high street, surely we have to go down the league table in that regard.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right about the importance of the high street. The Chancellor announced £435 million-worth of relief in the Budget and, as I have indicated, allocations have been made to local councils. We are certainly looking to them to implement this; some have set a good example—such as Leeds and Haringey—and we are looking to others to do the same. We will certainly consider what further action we need to take if they do not comply with our instructions.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister explain why the means of claiming small business rates relief is often hidden away in obscure parts of billing authority websites? Furthermore, given the need for an accessible redress system, when will the check, challenge and appeal process for online rating appeals move beyond the beta test stage?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Earl is right about the importance of small business and rural rate relief, and we are very clear about that. As part of the £435 million package we have set out how that is to operate, and we are looking to local councils to implement it—and they are doing do. He is absolutely right also about the importance of the check, challenge and appeal system operated by the Valuation Office Agency, and we are in close contact with it to make sure that that is working effectively.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my interests in the register. Does the Minister agree that it is time to fundamentally reform the business rates system to support our high streets? As more and more online shopping develops, we need a fairer system of business taxation that takes this into account.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right about the importance of ensuring that we have a fair system. We will be looking at possible reforms of the business rates systems during the course of this Parliament. But in the meantime, as the noble Lord has correctly pressed us, it is important that relief schemes are operating as effectively as they should be. That is why I once again appeal to noble Lords to, where necessary, contact their own local authorities and put pressure on them to make sure that the relief that has already been allocated is passed on to businesses.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Could my noble friend put a greater emphasis on this? We need this change now and cannot wait for it, because otherwise the high street will die.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right, and we are going to look at possible reforms to the rating system during this Parliament. In the meantime, the Government have been very clear—in 2016 through a package of £9 billion-worth of relief, and again in 2017, with £435 million-worth of relief—on how we can ensure that assistance goes to businesses on our hard-pressed high streets. Once again, I encourage local authorities to pass that money on.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

Would the Minister confirm that one problem with implementing the business rates relief is with the IT software provided to local councils by private suppliers? Secondly, he will be aware that this grant system is over a four-year funding regime that tapers towards the end of that period. Is he willing for there to be flexibility in the year-on-year funding—in other words, if there is underspend one year to push it over into the next year—so that businesses do not lose out?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a variety of issues. The issue about software relates to just the small business rate relief; it would not apply to the discretionary relief so is not an issue there. My honourable friend the Minister, Marcus Jones, contacted software providers yesterday to indicate that we expect them to ensure that bills are reissued by 21 August. In relation to points made earlier about a further month, I think that is fair. On the issue about the system in relation to the other relief package, clearly it is important that that money is passed on. We seek to ensure that that is done. I will write to her about flexibility, but that seems a fair point within the package. At the moment, the important point is that local authorities have the allocations and they should pass on that money.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Rebuck (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister comment on the cultural consequences of the 275 towns that will lose their bookshops—sometimes their only bookshop?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the discretionary relief scheme is just that: it is discretionary for local authorities to come up with their own criteria. We want them to be innovative. I have great personal sympathy with the point that the noble Baroness made. I am a great user of independent bookshops. One can think of many areas where bookshops are vital to a town, but that is something for the local authority to respond to. They can do that by being creative within their own scheme.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, as the Clock seems to have stopped, I will ask this. While welcoming the relief on business rates, could my noble friend recognise that companies such as Amazon use the high street as a shop window? They themselves pay no or limited tax. Do we not need to look radically at some sort of tax on internet sales so those on the high street can compete fairly?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

As always, my noble friend makes a valid point. I also noticed that the Clock seems to have stopped. That is often the case when I am answering Questions. In relation to his valid point, I restate that we will look during the course of this Parliament at possible reforms to the business rate system.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2017

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 22 June be approved.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, under this order, trials without a jury can take place in Northern Ireland for a further two years from 1 August 2017. Without this order, the current provisions will lapse on 31 July 2017. Although this is the fifth such extension of these provisions, I hope to leave noble Lords in no doubt as to the continued necessity of such provisions for another two years.

Noble Lords will be aware of the lethal threat posed by terrorists in Northern Ireland. Dissident republican terrorist groups continue to plan and mount attacks with the principal aim of killing or maiming those who serve the public in all communities so bravely. Police officers, prison officers and members of the Armed Forces are the main focus of these attacks, but the terrorists’ continued use of explosive devices and other weaponry continues to cause death and injury. Individuals linked to paramilitary organisations also continue to undermine peace and the rule of law in Northern Ireland through the use of violence and intimidation in both republican and loyalist communities.

I assure noble Lords that the Government wish to end the exceptional system of non-jury trials as soon as it is no longer necessary. But this should happen only when the circumstances allow, otherwise we risk allowing violence and intimidation to undermine the criminal justice process in Northern Ireland. Regrettably, although many attacks have been disrupted, the security situation today remains much the same as it was in 2015. The threat from terrorism in Northern Ireland is assessed to be severe. This year alone, four national security attacks have occurred in Northern Ireland, including the wounding of a police officer serving his community. It would be remiss of the Government to dispose of these provisions now given this threat and the impact it may have on the delivery of criminal justice in Northern Ireland, or simply because there are those who think we have had these provisions for long enough.

In the past two years, attacks by dissident republicans and loyalist paramilitaries have put countless innocent lives in danger. Noble Lords will recall the despicable incident on the Crumlin Road in Belfast in January this year, where two police officers who were serving their community came under attack from dissident republicans, leaving one officer badly injured. The forecourt of a busy filling station was sprayed with automatic gunfire, demonstrating the utter disregard these groups show for human life and the harm that they pose to ordinary members of the public. Sadly, this was not an isolated incident: there were four confirmed national security attacks in 2016, and there have been four so far this year, underlining the persistence of the threat we face.

The presence of dissident republicans and paramilitaries in Northern Ireland means that violence and intimidation remain a concern for the wider community. Figures released by the Police Service of Northern Ireland show that there has been an increased number of security-related deaths over the past three years, as well as an increasing trend in the number of paramilitary-style assaults since 2012-13. Threats towards police and public bodies also demonstrate the continued attempts at the intimidation of individuals and communities in Northern Ireland. In 2016-17, there were 137 arrests and 19 charges related to terrorism. Many attacks have been thwarted and disrupted, which is evidence that the work of the PSNI and its partners is having an impact, though the security situation remains serious.

Non-jury trial provisions are available in exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland where a risk to the administration of justice is suspected; for example, jury tampering, whereby intimidation, violence or the threat of violence against members of a jury could result in a perverse conviction or acquittal. The Director of Public Prosecutions may issue a certificate that allows a non-jury trial to be held in relation to any trial on indictment of a defendant, and anyone tried with that defendant, if it meets a defined test which falls within one of the following four conditions: first, the defendant is, or is an associate of, a member of a proscribed organisation, or has at any time been a member of an organisation when it was a proscribed organisation, whose activities are connected with the affairs of Northern Ireland; secondly, the offence was committed on behalf of a proscribed organisation, or that a proscribed organisation was involved with or assisted in the carrying out of the offence; thirdly, an attempt was made to prejudice the investigation or prosecution by, or on behalf of, a proscribed organisation, or that a proscribed organisation was otherwise involved with or assisted in that attempt; or fourthly, the offence was committed, to any extent—directly or indirectly—as a result of, in connection with or in response to religious or political hostility. A case that falls within one of the four conditions will not automatically be tried without a jury, because the DPP must also be satisfied there is a risk that the administration of justice might be impaired if a jury trial were to be held.

Let me be clear: this is not a Diplock court system. There is a clear distinction between this system and the pre-2007 Diplock court arrangements. The Diplock system saw a presumption that all scheduled offences were tried by a judge alone. Today in Northern Ireland there is a clear presumption that a jury trial will take place in all cases—the presumption is reversed.

In line with commitments previously made in Parliament in 2015, prior to the July 2017 expiry date the Secretary of State held a full public consultation on whether or not non-jury trial provisions should be extended. The consultation concluded in February this year, and received a total of 10 responses from a range of interested individuals and groups in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State has also received relevant briefings from security officials in order to understand the underlying threat picture in Northern Ireland. In the light of all the evidence and views before him, the Secretary of State has decided to renew non-jury trial provisions for a further two years and to keep them under regular independent review. As an extra and new measure of assurance, the independent reviewer of the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 will review the non-jury trial system as part of his annual review cycle, the results of which will be made available to the public in his published report.

We must recognise that Northern Ireland is a unique situation, and the non-jury trial provisions in the 2007 Act continue to be an important factor in supporting the effective delivery of the criminal justice process in a very small number of criminal cases. Certain jury trials in Northern Ireland would not be safe from disruption by those involved in paramilitary activity, many of whom make their presence known in Northern Ireland’s close-knit communities, or indeed in the public galleries of the courtrooms.

So far in 2017, the DPP has issued just four certificates for non-jury trials. During 2016, 19 certificates were issued and one was refused. The DPP acts with independence, exercising his discretion in deciding whether to issue a certificate. Noble Lords will also be interested to know that in 2016, just 0.7% of all Crown Court cases in Northern Ireland were conducted without a jury. The figure so far in 2017 is 0.5%. These figures reflect the small but consistent need for non-jury trial provisions.

Noble Lords can rest assured that the Secretary of State has not taken the decision to seek to renew the non-jury trial system lightly. We strongly believe, however, that the system is, on balance, a proportionate and necessary measure in the light of the unique risks facing the criminal justice process in Northern Ireland. The Government’s move to keep the provisions under annual independent review establishes a further safeguard, which I am sure noble Lords will welcome, thus ensuring the system remains fair and effective so that we keep it in place for only as long as is necessary and appropriate. I commend the order to the House.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of what is involved in this order. I am sure the House knows exactly what is at stake. I reiterate at the outset that this is reluctant legislation. We do not want to have to renew it, and neither do the Government. We welcome their assurance that they wish to end this exceptional system in Northern Ireland as soon as it is no longer necessary.

Your Lordships’ House is familiar with the security situation in Northern Ireland. It has been a little over a year since the death of Prison Officer Adrian Ismay after he was injured in a dissident republican bomb attack in Belfast. As the Minister said, in January this year two serving police officers were attacked in a public place with automatic gunfire. Dissident republicans and violent members of paramilitary groups seek to maim, kill and intimidate communities and with it disrupt peace and the rule of law in Northern Ireland. We pay tribute to those police officers, prison officers and members of the Armed Forces who serve the communities and are the main focus of these attacks. These threats affect all communities and, recklessly and without care, put the wider public at risk.

We are assured that decisions on the use of these provisions are taken with appropriate vigilance, with only a very small number of cases having these precautions applied to them. I understand that so far this year they make up 0.5% of Crown Court cases in Northern Ireland; last year, there were 19 relevant cases. I warmly welcome the commitment that the independent reviewer of the 2007 Act will be asked to review the non-jury trial provisions as part of the annual review cycle. This is a positive move which increases oversight of these exceptional measures.

The order unfortunately remains necessary due to the particular realities of the security situation and criminal justice in Northern Ireland. A huge amount of progress has been made, but we have further to travel. It is incredibly important, and remains our hope, that a full, devolved and inclusive Government will be returned in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. Today, for the reasons given, we have no hesitation in supporting the time-limited extension of this order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I, too, commend the Minister for his clarity on this issue. I would like to state clearly that, as far as my party, the DUP, is concerned, we have consistently argued that in any case where there is a significant risk of jury intimidation or a risk of perverse verdicts, it should be heard by a non-jury trial. Equally, offences motivated or aggravated by sectarianism, and crimes involving paramilitary and serious organised crime, including quasi-paramilitary organisations, should also be heard by a judge alone.

There is no doubt that, over the past 30 years and in extremely difficult circumstances, the Diplock court system served Northern Ireland quite well. It helped prevent jury intimidation and avoided perverse verdicts. I hasten to add that it may also have saved lives. Much of the credit must go to the judges who operated the system. They are to be commended and I do so wholeheartedly this evening.

This may be an imperfect way of administering justice, but it is the most satisfactory in the circumstances that prevail in Northern Ireland. My colleagues and I support the Government’s order. We also look forward to the hasty return of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I wish also to clarify to the House that my party, with the biggest mandate in Northern Ireland, is ready to return to the Assembly tomorrow—without any preconditions, without any ifs, ands or buts. We cannot see any reason why the Northern Ireland Assembly is not up and functioning and delivering for the people of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this statutory instrument and thank them for their universal but reluctant support for it—I think that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, summed it up both responsibly and correctly when he talked of the reluctance with which the decision was taken, but said that it was a very necessary decision. I also thank him for the bipartisan approach that has characterised the approach of government and opposition parties on the important issues that confront Northern Ireland. As I have indicated, it is a small number of cases that confront us where a non-jury trial is necessary—it is currently 0.5% of cases—but in my view it is nevertheless the correct approach.

I also thank other noble Lords—the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, Lord Browne of Belmont, Lord Bew and Lord Morrow, and my noble friend Lord Bridgeman —for their support. Perhaps I may deal first with points that have been made across the piece on the return of the power-sharing Executive and then return to some specific issues quite correctly raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and echoed by others.

The return of the power-sharing Executive is absolutely necessary. I find that everybody seems to want it to happen, everyone is willing it to happen, but the two principal parties have not yet gone the final mile necessary. This may be due to a lack of personal chemistry among the leaders. We have seen in the past how the chemistry that has existed between the leaders of the two largest parties has helped them go that extra mile—we saw it with the “Chuckle Brothers” in the early days and then with Peter Robinson—but we have not yet seen it with the “Chuckle Sisters”. I hope that there will be some reflection over the summer and that we will be able to go that extra mile to get to where we need to be. I thank noble Lords for their support in that connection.

I also thank noble Lords for acknowledging that we are doing this reluctantly and keeping it under review. David Seymour, who is doing the independent review of the legislation, will incorporate this into the report so that we are able as soon as possible to end this practice, which I think we all accept is necessary but undesirable.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, once again for his support. He raised a couple of specific issues. The first was the deficiencies of the criminal justice system and the need to increase public confidence. We will respond to that report in due course, but I recognise the need that he reflected there. The second issue that the noble Lord raised, quite correctly, was the importance of confronting paramilitary activity. The noble Lord is aware more than most of the need to tackle that. I thank him for the role that he has played in producing the invaluable report on the way forward.

Noble Lords will be aware—as the noble Lord indicated—that the Executive agreed an action plan for tackling paramilitary activity, criminality and organised crime in July last year. Since the publication of the action plan, work has been progressing to implement those commitments. To date, £9.1 million has been allocated across more than 15 projects, including the establishment of a paramilitaries task force led by the PSNI, which will have support from the NCA and HMRC, to tackle the criminality linked to paramilitaries. I can assure the House that the current situation, with the absence of an Executive at Stormont, has therefore not completely halted this important work; progress continues to be made to push it forward. As the noble Lord will be aware, the fresh start agreement has led to the creation of the Independent Reporting Commission, which will report on progress towards ending paramilitary activity.

That said, there are of course limitations to what can be progressed in the absence of Ministers, in this area as in so many others, and certain issues, including any legislative changes, will not be able to be moved forward until Ministers are in place to take such decisions. That is one more important reason why we need that power-sharing Executive to move things forward in Northern Ireland.

Of course, we will keep matters under review—let us see how they progress over the summer—but it is clear that some important measures will need to be taken if we do not reach a situation where we have a return to a power-sharing Executive. This is just one more of those. So I undertake to keep the House informed as to how we are progressing things should we be in the unhappy position of not having a power-sharing Executive when we come back after the conference season. In the meantime, I again thank noble Lords for their support of this statutory instrument and commend it to the House.

Motion agreed.

Grenfell Tower: Rehousing Update

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, with the permission of the House, I would like to repeat a Statement made in the other place by the Housing Minister. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House on the ongoing work to rehouse the victims of the tragedy at Grenfell Tower.

Three weeks have now passed since the fire. As we all know, it soon became clear that the delivery of the initial response on the ground was simply not good enough. Since then, much has been done to support victims, to see that justice is done, and to ensure that other buildings around the country are safe. Throughout, our first priority has been helping victims who have suffered such an unspeakable trauma. We have been working hard to ensure that they have all the support they need, securing emergency accommodation and making financial and emotional support available as quickly as possible.

The response efforts have been co-ordinated by the Grenfell response team, led by John Barradell. He is being supported by colleagues drawn from London councils, the wider local government sector, the voluntary sector, police, health and fire services, as well as central government. I would like to express my heartfelt thanks to them all for their immense efforts over the last few weeks.

The new leader of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, Elizabeth Campbell, has given a fulsome apology for the inadequate initial response. She has also asked for help from central government to put things right. As the Communities Secretary has set out in a Written Ministerial Statement today, we will be establishing an independent task force to help the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea build its capability so that it can deal with the longer-term challenge of recovery.

The Prime Minister promised that we would make an offer of new temporary housing to all those who have lost their homes as a result of the fire, within three weeks. These are good-quality, fully furnished homes, so that families can move on from emergency accommodation and live, rent free, in a proper home while permanent accommodation, on equal terms, is found; 158 families from Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk have been identified as being in need of such housing.

I can confirm that every family who is ready to talk to the housing team has been offered a temporary home, and that 139 have received offers of accommodation. However, 19 families have not yet been ready to engage in this process, and we need to respect that. Some are still in hospital as a result of their injuries. In some cases, the people on the ground offering these families support have made clear that it would be inappropriate at this time to ask them to make a decision about where they will live. These families have been through unimaginable trauma, and we need to go at the pace that they want to go at. What matters above all else is what the families individually want.

The Grenfell response team has been working with the 139 families currently engaged with the process to match them with appropriate temporary accommodation, and to start to talk to them about their long-term needs. The housing team has identified and secured more than 200 good-quality properties so that residents can have a choice where to live. I know that some have raised concerns about the quality of the accommodation offered. All properties have been inspected by the housing team to ensure that they are in good condition. My right honourable friend the Communities Secretary has personally seen an example of the kind of property on offer, and representatives of local residents groups have also seen and been assured of the quality. If the shadow Minister would find it helpful, I would be very happy to visit some of these properties with him so that he can assure himself of their quality.

All of the properties are local, and are either in Kensington and Chelsea or in a neighbouring borough. This will mean that families can continue to be near their friends and relatives, go to the same GP and send their children to the same school. Fourteen offers of temporary accommodation have been accepted, and three families have already moved in. I expect this number to increase, but we have to respect the pace at which the families want to go. I have personally met over 30 of the families who have been directly affected and, from talking to them, I understand that there are many reasons why some are reluctant to take up these offers. Some might choose to remain in hotels until they have an offer of a permanent tenancy.

We also understand that one of the big issues holding people back is a lack of trust. Some families were told that they were moving into Grenfell Tower on a temporary basis and then, years later, they were still there. Their concerns are entirely understandable—that is trust which we need to work hard to earn. We also have to respect their decision if they do not wish to move out of emergency accommodation before permanent housing is available. We will keep on making offers to families of local homes that we think would be suitable for them, but no one will be forced into a home that they do not want to move into.

I want to respond to a number of reports which have been made, claiming that people are being told to move far from London or that they may be deemed homeless if they do not accept an offer. I want to be absolutely clear: if this is ever suggested to a victim then that is completely unacceptable. I have already stated that if anyone is aware of an individual family who is not receiving the offer we have promised, please tell me, and we will fix this. I repeat that call to the House now.

Let me set out again what the Government have committed to do. Every household that is ready to talk has been offered temporary accommodation. The housing team will continue to work with families to ensure that their individual needs are met. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, everyone whose home was destroyed by the fire will be guaranteed a new home on the same terms as the one they lost. This means paying the same rent, with the same level of security, and in the same area.

When it comes to permanent housing, we have already announced a new block of social housing that will provide 68 new homes in Kensington Row. We are urgently working with a number of developers to secure similar properties either in Kensington and Chelsea or very close to North Kensington, so that families can stay in the same area. These negotiations have not yet concluded, and we need to work closely with the residents to make sure that the sorts of properties we are able to make available will match what they want.

There are also 17 leaseholders who lost their homes and we are working with them to make sure that they do not lose out financially because of the fire. I met with them recently as a group, and we are working with them individually to find the right solution for them.

On my visits to the West Way, hearing the harrowing accounts of survivors has been the most humbling and moving experience of my life. The families I have met have been through unimaginable pain. We will continue to do all we can to get them the help they need. This tragedy should never have happened, and I am determined to do all that we can to make sure that something like this never happens again. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for keeping the House so well informed about the consequences of this disastrous and tragic fire. Although shamefully delayed, I am encouraged that the Government are now recognising the scale of the disaster, which, as the Minister himself has said, was wholly avoidable. It is also positive that the council leader of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea has resigned, as called for last week by several Members of your Lordships’ House. I am pleased that the newly elected leader has acknowledged the council’s failings, which clears the way for others to step in and provide it with the support it obviously needs. The Government have announced how they intend to do that through the task force.

The Grenfell residents who survived the fire have lost their homes through no fault of their own. It is therefore right that the wishes of the residents in seeking new accommodation are paramount, so that they can begin to settle into new homes. They must be given time and support in making their decisions. Many families will wish to remain in the area, which is the one they know, so that their children can continue to attend the same school and families can remain with the local general practitioner. Will this be the case? The Minister seemed to confirm that in the Statement, but it is not clear what kind of distances residents will be expected to travel in order to retain their links, and perhaps will rely on even more given the tragedy they have been through. What is the distance or length of time for travel the Government consider is acceptable to residents from their new accommodation to schools, GPs and so on?

I want also to ask about ongoing mental health support, in particular for all the children who have been through this awful experience. If residents choose to move well away from Grenfell Tower, as I can imagine some may well wish to do, how will support move with those families? It would be awful if people move, perhaps even away from London, but still need support to get through this difficult time. Given the reason for rehousing, is the Minister able to reassure residents that every new unit of accommodation on offer will have been given a thorough fire safety check before anyone is asked to consider moving? It is the kind of reassurance that I would seek if I had been through even part of what the Grenfell residents have experienced.

Finally, I understand that yesterday the Secretary of State at DCLG, when speaking to the Local Government Association, claimed that as a result of the Grenfell Tower fire there was a crisis of trust in local government as a whole. I would say to the Minister that the crisis of trust is in only one council—the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. A comparison that I would draw to his attention is that of the amazing response by Manchester City Council to the terrorist attack earlier this year. Equally in that case, there were many casualties and the need to co-ordinate an instant response. As a country, we will not learn the lessons from this tragedy if the Government or anyone else attempts to put the blame on a single institution. Across government, local government and public services in general, we all need to learn the lessons so that this awful and avoidable tragedy can never be repeated.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, very much for their contributions. I shall first take up the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I agree with him: the response on the ground we have seen from gold command, the local authorities, central government and the emergency services was absolutely awesome, and from voluntary and charitable bodies. There is no doubt of that.

I thank the noble Lord for the welcome of the recovery task force that has been announced, as he rightly said, by Written Ministerial Statement. On the specific issue he raised of the art therapy group, if he has further details of that—it is the first I have heard about it—I would be happy to look at that and to get officials to look at it. He is absolutely right that this should not be happening. At a time like this we need added sensitivity, not a lack of it. I shall certainly follow that up, but as I say, I know nothing of it.

I have not heard that this is the case, but if anyone feels that they are not being dealt with properly regarding some of the housing offers, again, there is the Westway centre, which is staffed by the people I just referred to—local authority members and central government, with assistance from voluntary and charitable bodies. They can go there. There is a victim support unit there. There is a family and friends centre at Holborn. Again, if any noble Lord has any details of anything they would like me to follow up I am happy to do that. I thank him very much indeed for the welcome he gave to Elizabeth Campbell, the incoming leader. I agree that she will want to work with other councillors across the piece. I am sure that is what she will do.

Turning to the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, I once again thank her very much indeed for her positive response. The challenges are daunting across many areas, some of which on housing were specifically dealt with by this Statement, but there are many much wider than that. The wishes of residents relating to temporary accommodation and, indeed, permanent accommodation are paramount. We are trying to meet the needs and wishes of residents because of the massive need for sensitivity. That is what is governing this. That is why the process may take some time because the trauma means people will initially feel they want to go back to where they lived and then, giving it more thought, think that is perhaps the last thing they want to do. Understandably, people do not want to rush a decision on something such as this, hence staying in the emergency accommodation of the hotel. As I think has been indicated—I shall restate it—there is no rental charge for the emergency accommodation or the temporary accommodation. There is no charge on that at all.

The noble Baroness asked about links with GPs and schools where appropriate. Clearly, that is something that will influence the residents concerned. As she indicated, often it may be a question of distance or at least the time travelled, but not always. Someone may be travelling to work or something in a particular area, so it has to be judged by the individuals concerned. Once again, we are taking our leads from the individuals concerned.

The noble Baroness asked about mental health support. Again, that is certainly being provided for bereavement and more widely through the Westway centre. I thank her for her comments about people who may move away to be with relations or who may want to move out of the area completely. It is important that we do not drop the ball in relation to mental health, so I will make sure that point is followed up, as I am sure everybody wants it to be. Fire safety checks are being done on new accommodation offers. I can confirm that; obviously it is central.

On the Secretary of State—my boss—I can say only that he has been working tirelessly on this. He knows the important role of local authorities and the good work they did. The noble Baroness referred to the Manchester terrorist attack. I went up there during the election campaign when the dreadful attack happened. She is absolutely right that it was the best of British public services, voluntary services and individuals all coming forward. I can confirm that that has uniformly been the case. I thank her very much for her point on mental health, which we will certainly follow up.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

While I concur with a great deal of what has been said, has the Minister seen or read the allegations which I have seen that a number of the flats had been unlawfully sublet by their tenants, so the victims were people who were not actually tenants of the local authority? Quite clearly, those people should be fairly and properly treated, but what is to happen to the tenants who had illegally sublet? Surely they will not be holding out their hands for another tenancy to unlawfully sublet.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that there have been allegations of unlawful subletting. The Government have been keen in this situation—I think, correctly—to say that this does not matter at this juncture; what really matters is ensuring that we have proper account of those who have lost their lives or who have gone missing. Therefore, in these circumstances, it is entirely appropriate that we say that no charges will be brought in relation to unlawful subletting—that is not to condone it more widely, but in these special circumstances, the important thing is the loss of life and the learning of lessons so that we can ensure that this does not happen again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Will your Lordships allow me one more question? Many people in that tower will be on UC and will have interview letters stating that if they do not attend those meetings they will face sanctions. Will the Minister again assure the House that for people who have lost all their paperwork, which was their line through to universal credit, housing benefit, disability benefit and so on, sanctions will not apply as they would do if they had not been engaged in this tragedy? I am sure that the Government have good will in this regard, but can we have assurances on these matters in writing, which will make all the difference to the security of income of affected tenants?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises several points. I understand that there is no time limit on discretionary payments being made. I reiterate the point made in the Statement and by the Prime Minister previously that accommodation is being offered on terms at least as generous as those available previously. That means that no bedroom tax would be charged if it applied previously. Charitable payments will not have an effect on benefits, and there will be no sanctions.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement, in which he confirmed that,

“everyone whose home was destroyed by the fire will be guaranteed a new home on the same terms as the one they lost”.

The Statement then goes on to clarify what that means:

“Paying the same rent, with the same level of security and in the same area”.


I suggest to the Minister that there should be a fourth definition: “with at least the equivalent furniture, fittings and decoration at no cost to the tenant”.

I raise this because there are issues around whose insurance policies will pay for furniture and fittings. In my view, that should lie not with the tenant but with the landlord. Even though the Statement overall seems to imply that it includes the substantial cost of furniture and fittings, for the avoidance of doubt the Government should be very clear about this. I just remind the House of my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. I have some sympathy with that point. Indeed, when I read the Statement I made a similar point. I think it is inherent in the Statement but I am happy to confirm that not only should the accommodation be at least as good and with as many bedrooms—I understand that in many cases it will be more—but also the furniture and fittings should be of equivalent standard. Perhaps one could go too far in setting that out but that should encapsulate the point the noble Lord wanted.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

I congratulate my noble friend the Minister on the approach he is taking, and congratulate both Front Benches. In the interests of the people concerned and given the tragedy they faced, the last thing we need is party-political point-scoring. How can we all work together to deal with this appalling tragedy? The one remark I disagree with in each of the previous contributions was when it was said that this must never happen again. There is a real risk that something will happen—not necessarily this; maybe a plane crash. It is quite clear that the organisation in London of individual boroughs is not properly equipped to handle a tragedy of this scale. There is no wonder that Manchester City Council did a better job than Kensington and Chelsea: the resources available are on a vastly different scale. The Minister talked about a task force. There needs to be a permanent organisation so that if tragedy strikes in one of these ways, it can go straight in and do the work. I very much hope that that will be the outcome of this.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that positive contribution, and echo it. I thank noble Lords who have sought to approach this in a genuinely bipartisan way, because it transcends party-political differences. The specific point raised is one that the Prime Minister indicated, so my noble friend is very much on that page. There will be a civil disaster task force to deal with circumstances like this. I certainly echo what my noble friend said.

[Noble Lords]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I do not believe that the Cross Benches have spoken. I echo from these Benches the welcome for the Statement and the determination by the Government to ensure that these families have peace of mind in future. I also echo the concern raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, on the Opposition Benches, that in the longer term we may need exemption from the bedroom tax for these families. They may be moved into larger homes; the Minister said that they might have more bedrooms than previously. I hope the Minister will give careful consideration to those suggestions. I also welcome what the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, said about not seeking to blame one particular individual but looking at how the system itself failed to meet the needs of the people.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that. Clearly, there are issues that will be looked at by the inquiry. Initially, issues will be looked at by the expert panel in relation to this disaster—the immediate action necessary. Then, I anticipate that there will be an interim report for the inquiry, then a fuller report. The noble Earl referred to perhaps even broader issues that we will need to address. I am sure that they will be addressed in due time. Just at the moment, we are focused on the immediate things that must be dealt with in terms of the awful tragedy at Grenfell Tower.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Minister said there were 17 leaseholders; that is, people who will have purchased their property from the local authority. Can he say a little more about their position? I presume that they will either be block insured under a block policy or they will be individually insured in terms of the value of their property. Will they be treated in any way differently from those who were tenants of the local authority?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that perceptive question. Each case is different and each is being looked at individually. I think they will be dealt with mutatis mutandis. Obviously, there are differences because they own the property rather than being social tenants. But in essence it will be dealt with in parallel in exactly the same way.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that the judge who has been appointed to head the inquiry, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, is extremely well qualified to head that inquiry and that criticisms of him are wholly misconceived? Does my noble friend agree that it is to be hoped that everybody affected by this tragedy will work with the inquiry to determine the true causes?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I agree entirely with my noble friend. He is absolutely right. Sir Martin was chosen because he is the appropriate person to take this forward. He has already visited and has been consulting tenant organisations about the terms of reference and the scope of the inquiry. Details about the public inquiry are on the web at grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk. It is there for people to look at and contribute to the scope of the inquiry, I think until a week on Friday: 14 July. If people want to take that up and have a look at it, I am sure that that would be beneficial.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, in the Prime Minister’s Statement on 22 June, she first outlined that the accommodation will be on the same terms as the original accommodation, and we have seen a definition of that today. Unfortunately, I understood “same terms” to be in the personal injury lawyer sense, which is to put the person back into the position they would have been in had none of this happened. People who have been placed in accommodation with more bedrooms should be in the same position—having the same money still in their pocket—as if they were in the house they had been in. Can my noble friend the Minister find a way to short-circuit these processes, as we have done for prosecutions for illegal subletting? People should not have to get discretionary housing payments when they should basically be in the same position as if the fire had never happened. There must be a way to achieve that and get that justice for them, including of course if they have moved further away and they have extra transport costs to get to work. All of that has to be taken into account and we need a speedy, efficient way that is not in bureaucracy and discretion to achieve that as soon as possible.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I quote again from the Statement. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister said that,

“everyone whose home was destroyed by the fire will be guaranteed a new home on the same terms as the one they lost”.

That is what we are intending to do. Beyond that, if the home that they go to is larger than the one they were in previously, they will not be charged extra, as I understand it; I was going through this this morning in the department.

[Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab)]

My Lords, the House will want to welcome the practical steps that are being taken by the authorities, including central government and local authorities, to repair the practical and physical damage. But one of the missing ingredients between the community and the authorities is trust. Undermining that trust is the need to get some authentic and verified numbers about the number of people who perished in the awful fire. Is there any mechanism that can be set in train to get the information, whether it is held by the local authority or the housing association? Until that figure is properly authenticated, there will be mistrust and the healing of the community will take a very long time. The nation has a right to know how many people perished in that awful, tragic fire.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Morris, about the number of people who perished. We sorely want to know that information. It is not just a question of finding out how many people were tenants in the block. As we have indicated, there were people residing there who were not tenants, who were illegally subletting, which is certainly possible, or who were guests. It is entirely possible that people were staying overnight. Sadly, at the top of the block, it is very difficult indeed to identify people who have lost their lives. We are striving to find the number of people who died. I think currently we have identified 90 people who almost certainly perished in the fire. Beyond that, it is difficult, but we are seeking to do that by the measures I have mentioned. The Statement refers explicitly to the issue of trust. I agree that we need to rebuild the trust of the people who lived in Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk and more widely in Kensington and Chelsea, and that is what we are seeking to do in the way that we are approaching this.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, following the question from my noble friend Lord King, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that there are no other local authorities that are equally weak in disaster planning and response? Although this was a terrible tragedy, in terms of managing the disaster, it was not particularly difficult. It was very concentrated geographically. What would have happened if a wide-bodied jet had landed somewhere in west London?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, in the immediate aftermath of this dreadful tragedy we have, as my noble friend will know, contacted other local authorities to ensure that there is not a replica of this situation elsewhere. Everything we have done since then in terms of testing and action has been to ensure that that does not happen. There has been only one case to date, in Camden, where we have had to evacuate blocks, although we have found non-compliant cladding in, I think, 202 cases. My noble friend said that this case was easy to handle but I would dispute that. It might have been geographically concentrated, but the nature of this tragedy was such that it was, and still is, very difficult to address. I have no particular knowledge of detailed plans for the type of disaster he talked about, but the suggestion by my noble friend Lord King and the Prime Minister of some sort of civil action disaster task force is an appropriate one to deal with such awful occasions, which do happen over time—we can think of transport disasters or Hillsborough. Such situations would be helped by having an appropriate body with legacy ideas passed on from one awful disaster to another. It is an idea that is worth pursuing on a non-partisan basis.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, indicated that they would like to accept the invitation extended by my noble friend to see the properties that these unfortunate, tragic people are being offered. Clearly, we do not want to place strains upon those who are working so hard, but could we possibly have a little exhibition in the Robing Room or somewhere else illustrating the sorts of properties that are being offered so that Members of your Lordships’ House and of another place can see these things and the specifications?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, in relation to the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, seeing the properties, I was of course repeating a Statement in which the offer was made by the Minister in the Commons, Alok Sharma, to John Healey MP. That is not to say that I cannot make provision for that, but the most important thing—as I can see from the response of noble Lords opposite, and it is my own feeling—is that we should allow people to get on with the work which they need to do on an urgent basis. I would say the same to my noble friend in relation to any follow-up with the type of housing that is being offered. The first thing that is really important is for the people concerned to get on with their job. I know that civil servants from my department are working tirelessly at weekends and pretty much round the clock, and I would not want to impose any additional burdens on them at this time.

Grenfell Tower Update

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Department for Communities and Local Government. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, I would like to update the House on the Government’s response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy, and our safety inspections of cladding in other buildings. Almost three weeks have passed since the catastrophe that hit Grenfell Tower. Progress has been made to help the survivors and people in surrounding buildings who were affected. Landlords across the country have been taking measures to make their buildings safe. Sir Martin Moore-Bick has been appointed to lead a full public inquiry, and an independent expert panel is now advising my department on any immediate action on fire safety that is required.

The disaster at Grenfell Tower should never have happened. The police investigation and public inquiry will find out why it did. Right now, the immediate priority of the Government is to provide every assistance to those who were affected and take every precaution to avoid another tragedy in buildings with similar cladding. The Grenfell Tower victims’ unit is operating from my department and providing a point of access into government, and staff from across government continue to offer support at the Westway assistance centre and a separate family bereavement centre. More than £2.5 million has been distributed from our £5 million Grenfell Tower residents’ discretionary fund. Each household affected is receiving £5,500 to provide immediate assistance and, so far, payments to 112 households have been made.

There has been much speculation about who was in the Grenfell Tower on the night of the fire, and it is vital that we find out. As I announced yesterday, the Director of Public Prosecutions has been clear that there will be no prosecution of tenants at Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk who may have been illegally subletting their property, so all tenants can be confident about coming forward with information for the authorities. There may have been people living in flats that were illegally sublet, who had no idea about the true status of their tenancy. Now their families want to know if they perished in the fire. These are their sons and daughters, brothers and sisters; they need closure, and it is the least they deserve. But that cannot happen unless we have the information we need, so we are urging anyone with that information to come forward, and do it quickly.

The immediate response to the Grenfell disaster is being co-ordinated by the Grenfell response team, led by John Barradell, who is being supported by colleagues drawn from London Councils, the wider local government sector, the voluntary sector, police, health and fire services, as well as central government. Their expertise and hard work is making a huge difference, but this is only a temporary measure. It is also vital that we put in place long-term support for the longer-term recovery.

It was right that the leader of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea took the decision to resign. I look forward to working with a new leader of the council, and I will look at every option to ensure that everyone affected by this tragedy has the long-term support they need.

The Prime Minister promised that every family who lost their home because of the fire would be offered a good-quality temporary home within three weeks, and the deadline is this Wednesday. I have been monitoring the progress of rehousing, and we will honour that commitment. Every home offered will be appropriate and of good quality. What we will not do is compel anyone to accept an offer of temporary accommodation they do not want. Some families indicated they wanted to remain as close as possible to their former home, but when they received their offer decided it would be easier to deal with their bereavement if they moved further away. Some families decided that, for the same reasons, they would prefer to remain in hotels for the time being. Other households indicated that they would prefer to wait until permanent accommodation becomes available. Every household will receive an offer of temporary accommodation by this Wednesday, but every household will also be given the space to make this transition at their own pace, and in a way that helps them to recover from this tragedy.

The people affected by the disaster at Grenfell Tower need our assistance, and they are receiving it. They also want answers. Sir Martin Moore-Bick has been appointed to lead a full, independent inquiry. He has visited Kensington and met victims and survivors, as well as members of the local community who have done so much to help. After consulting with the community, Sir Martin will then advise on the terms of the inquiry, and we will ensure that there is legal support for victims so that they can play a full part. We must allow that inquiry and the criminal investigation to run their course. Each must have the space to follow the evidence wherever it takes them. We must all be careful not to prejudge or prejudice either of them, but what we can do right now is take sensible precautions to avoid another tragedy.

The Building Research Establishment is continuing to test the combustibility of cladding for councils and housing associations, as well as private landlords. So far, all the samples of cladding tested have failed—that is 181 out of 181. It is obviously extremely disturbing that there are such a large number of buildings with combustible cladding, and the priority now is to make those buildings safe. Where appropriate, mitigating measures cannot be implemented quickly; landlords must then provide alternative accommodation while the remedial work is carried out, which is exactly what happened in the four tower blocks in Camden. Our primary concern has been buildings over 18 metres, or six storeys, where people stay at night. Hospitals, prisons and schools are also being assessed.

We ourselves have asked questions about the testing regime after discovering the 100% failure rate so far. The testing process itself has been looked at abroad by the Research Institutes of Sweden, which have confirmed that they believe that the process is sound. A full explanatory briefing note on the testing process has been made available on GOV.UK. As the note explains, every failed test means that the panels are unlikely to be compliant with the limited combustibility requirement of the building regulations guidance; that has been confirmed by legal advice and the advice of the independent expert panel that was established last week. For use of the panels to be safe, landlords need to be confident that the whole wall system has been tested and shown to be safe. We are not aware of any such system having passed the necessary tests, but I have asked the expert advisory panel to look into this further.

Almost three weeks have passed since the catastrophe that hit Grenfell Tower, but I know I speak for every Member of this House when I say we are still in shock. It was not just the terrible scale of the suffering, it was the fact that it happened in 21st-century Britain, in London’s richest borough. I will continue to direct the full resources of my department to assist the Grenfell response team. I will be working closely with the new leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council to make sure that there are plans for the longer-term recovery in place, and I will return to this House regularly to update honourable Members on progress”.

I commend this Statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Before the noble Lord responds, perhaps I could draw the attention of the House to my interests. I am a councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for that and to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his contribution. I thank them for their general welcome of the progress that is being made. I will try to pick up some of the more detailed points that they made.

First, in relation to the position of Kensington and Chelsea, one has to remember that there is local political accountability. That said, it is important that we recognise that the immediate situation, which may well go on some time in relation to many of these issues, is being handled by gold command, the boroughs involved and central government with assistance from other bodies, to which noble Lords referred. I pay tribute particularly to the help that has been given by the voluntary sector and charities, which has been considerable. It has been trusted by the local community and has been much more responsive and much speedier in terms of an ability to act. That said, many civil servants have worked pretty much round the clock, as well as others from other London boroughs. I also pay tribute to what they are doing. The Secretary of State will want to engage with the new leader of Kensington and Chelsea to see what is happening in terms of political involvement not just from the governing party in Kensington and Chelsea but the other parties to see how we can move this forward. However, what is most important at the moment is that we have effective organisation on the ground dealing with these issues.

I can confirm to the noble Lord that everybody who has sought financial assistance has so far been given it. If others have not sought it, we are encouraging them to come forward. As I have indicated previously, there is sometimes an issue with languages but we have people on the ground who are able to help on the language issue, whether in writing or orally, so that is being handled as well. I should say that getting £2.5 million out—this is in addition to any entitlement to benefits—is not something to be dismissed too lightly. It is significant.

I turn to the inquiry that has been mentioned. This is a judge-led inquiry. The Secretary of State has indicated in the other place that he expects this to have broad terms of reference. Obviously, it needs to focus on the immediate situation in Grenfell Tower, but it also needs to consider the wider lessons that have to be learned. As we go on across many years, many Administrations, and, doubtless, across many parties in local government, there are lessons for us all to learn. Every day we are finding out more. It is important that we pick these up. It is the very least we owe to the people who have suffered and lost their lives in Grenfell Tower that we never let anything remotely like this happen again. So it is important that all those detailed lessons are learned, and that we have broad terms of reference. The judge, Sir Martin, has been in Kensington and is engaging with tenants and tenants’ representations to ensure that we have that input and no doubt get those broad terms of reference.

As regards assistance for other authorities to which the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, referred, whose samples have failed, I am pleased to say that in every case except Camden evacuation has not been involved, so although clearly the situation involves ongoing action it is not as difficult as the position has been in Camden. Obviously, we are reviewing that and seeing what has happened.

The noble Lord also asked about updating. In fairness, we have presented two Statements in a fairly short time. I have had a very good briefing session for Peers, which will be followed up with a detailed letter on some of the points that were raised. Some were answered at the time but some of the more detailed points were not. We will keep that under review, but we of course recognise the obligation to update Members. That is quite right.

I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his warm welcome of the progress that has been made, which was typically generous of him. I think that we have complied with the coroner’s inquest recommendations in relation to Lakanal House, certainly the recommendation regarding sprinklers, which I imagine will be something that the inquiry will want to look at. I note what the noble Lord said about the Building Regulations. I will get officials to look at that again. However, I think the indication was that we were just looking at the position on the Building Regulations where it had been suggested by the coroner’s inquest that we might want to simplify these. I think that we would want to review that in the light of what has happened. I do not think that we would want to pursue that as things stand at the moment.

I hope that I have picked up the points that have been made by noble Lords. However, as always, if I have not picked up anything following the Statement, I will ensure that it is covered in a letter.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend, and indeed the whole Government, defend the integrity and impartiality of the learned judge appointed to conduct this inquiry and deplore the comments made by some that the only person capable of being an impartial judge on this has to be a black woman who has lived in a tower block? We have had too many criticisms of noble judges before. I know that is not a general view, but there were comments in the press this weekend about that. Can my noble friend assure me that the inquiry will look at the advice on staying put? All my life I have laboured under the misapprehension, apparently, that when there is a fire one gets out ASAP. Yet it seems that even when the whole building was ablaze from top to bottom, the emergency services may have been giving advice to stay put. That is all very well when one little flat is on fire, but not when the whole building is ablaze. Will that issue please be looked at as well?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend very much indeed for that contribution. I am happy to endorse what he says about the impartiality of the judge and to deplore the suggestion that has been made that such a situation has to be dealt with by somebody from a particular background. That is totally improper. It is important that we uphold the independence of our judiciary and recognise that Sir Martin will go about his job in that way.

I, too, had seen the point about staying put when there is a fire. Doubtless, that is something which the judge will want to look at within the context of the Grenfell Tower fire but more widely as regards advice when there are fires.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that there are blocks of flats owned by private landlords in all our major cities which are clad in very similar material. When I asked the other day whether the cladding on those privately owned blocks should be tested compulsorily, as is the case with social landlord-owned blocks, the Minister said that,

“it is not compulsory for them to do so, because that is what we have decided”.—[Official Report, 27/6/17; col. 290.]

Many of my colleagues came up to me after I asked that question to say that they could not understand the answer. What is the difference between a privately owned block covered in this cladding as against a social landlord-owned block? Surely the risks are exactly the same? If one should be compulsorily tested, surely it should apply to the other. Can I have a fuller explanation on this occasion?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. In fairness, on that occasion I responded to a supplementary question, perhaps from a sedentary position, so it was a second question. However, I went back afterwards, because I took seriously what the noble Lord said; I know that he always comes forward with serious and properly researched points. After this dreadful fire in social housing, the Government have taken the view that looking at social housing in this country has to be our top priority. That is not to say that we disregard our concern for private blocks, because indeed they have been contacted, and indication has been made to landlords that they are able to avail themselves of the free testing facility, we are encouraging them to do so and we will follow that up. But in terms of priorities, social housing will come first, and then of course we will, rightly, turn to the issue of private housing. As regards resources, we could not offer the same attention to both. It is not that it is more important, but we are focusing on the social housing first.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I declare that I am a resident in Kensington and Chelsea and have stood as both a parliamentary candidate and a council candidate there. The borough has, quite rightly, come up for quite a lot of criticism. Will the Minister tell the House, first, when he expects the interim report to be published, and will he reassure everybody, whether in social or private housing, that should the council be found wanting, even within the scope of the interim report—which will, of course, just be interim—the Government will take those findings extremely seriously and will think about looking at the governance arrangements of the borough?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness. On the interim report of the inquiry—we very much anticipate that there will be such a report—of course the Government will take that very seriously, but we want to ensure that immediate urgent action is taken. I do not want to second-guess what it might say, as that would be totally inappropriate. In raising that issue, the noble Baroness reminds me of a matter raised, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, or the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on insulation—it was the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. The expert panel will want to look at that; it has already had two meetings and it is obviously quite distinct from the inquiry. We set up the expert panel under the leadership of Sir Ken Knight, who has vast experience of fires and so on, and it will come forward with matters that need dealing with even more urgently than the interim report. That might be an appropriate way forward, and that is what we anticipate will happen.

[Baroness Manzoor (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that the vast majority of tenants at Grenfell Tower were from ethnic minorities and of Muslim origin. That starkly highlights the poverty trap that many of these communities find themselves in. Can my noble friend say what longer-term strategy we are introducing so that we can ensure that people from ethnic minority communities are not trapped in this way? That is a wide question, but a more specific question for the short term is: are the Government setting up specialist bereavement and support services for those who have been traumatised in this dreadful and appalling incident?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend for those perceptive points, which are on a broader front than the Grenfell fire situation or fires generally, about the nature of social housing in our country today. First, she will be aware that we are conducting a racial audit within government; I think that this is the first time this has ever happened. It has slipped back by perhaps a couple of months because of the election, but we are looking, across all government departments, at issues such as education, school places and housing allocation to see exactly what the stark figures are. One cannot really argue with the figures, and one would want to ensure that policies are properly framed with regard to those. Secondly, the Casey report is still very much work in progress—that is the report that was made to the Home Secretary and the then Prime Minister on issues of integration—and we will want to take that forward as well in the context of the racial audit. Therefore, my noble friend raises important issues. She asked a second question about bereavement support, which is being done by government departments. We are ensuring that it is in place and being used, and it is important that we do so.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, I have three quick questions about this ghastly tragedy. First, the Secretary of State has promised extra funds for remedial work that councils need to carry out. Am I right to assume that housing associations will be eligible for those extra funds in the same way as councils? Often housing associations now own the blocks that were previously council owned. Secondly, will the funds that go to councils—and, I hope, also to housing associations—for remedial work on other tower blocks elsewhere be new money, or will this money be drawn from the funding set aside for new development? It would be a double tragedy if we lost some of the new homes that we desperately need to see built. Finally, on the governance point, rather specifically about the particular arrangements in Kensington and Chelsea, will the inquiry look at the tenant management organisation’s relationship with the local authority? It is a rather unusual way of working, with the danger—I want to know whether the inquiry will tackle this—of things falling between the tenant management organisation and the council as the owner itself.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much for those pertinent questions. First, on his question about remedial work and whether funds will be made available for local authorities and housing associations, my understanding is that that is the case. I will, once again, cover that in the write-round letter, but I believe it is the case. I believe also that it is new money—our targets on housing remain very much as they were—but, again, I will cover that in the letter. On the governance arrangements, I will ensure that this debate is made available to the judge, Sir Martin, so that he is aware of the discussions here. I would be surprised if that issue did not come up in discussion with tenants’ organisations, which he will be speaking with. However, the point is well made, and I will make sure that it is brought to the attention of the judge, as well as the whole of this debate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I am sorry to come back again but, to be frank, I am dissatisfied with the responses I am getting. Why cannot the private sector fund its own cladding testing arrangements and get on with that job immediately? I am sure it is not beyond the wit of man to generate, create or design the equipment that is used in testing. As I understand it, Ministers are now saying that the many dozens, if not hundreds, of privately owned blocks—I do not know how many—which potentially have had this cladding applied to them, will have to wait, because there are not the facilities. The Minister said that the Government’s priority is to deal with the social landlord sector, which means that private blocks will have to wait to see whether they are tested, unless those test sites are already available. If they are, why cannot it be made compulsory?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the point is one of compulsion. They are available, and there is spare capacity at the moment, as has been indicated—we can do 100 tests a day. So we are encouraging landlords to make use of that facility: they are able to do so; we are encouraging them to do so; and there is evidence that many are doing it. The point is one of compulsion. We are not compelling it at the moment, because—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

We are putting our attention very much on the social housing sector, which, in the light of what has happened, noble Lords will understand.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his helpful Statement on this agonising subject, and I endorse his thanks for all that people are trying to do to improve the situation. As someone who has for many years been either a regulator within government or in business being regulated, I have concluded that in areas such as safety and standards, including fire safety, we need regulations that are balanced, well thought out and cost effective; simply expressed and well communicated to everybody who needs to know what those regulations are; and—this is the important point for today—properly enforced. So often we find that good rules are not enforced and disasters of the tragic sort that we have seen on this occasion ensue. Therefore, I ask my noble friend, and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, will probably be interested in the answer to this question as well: how can we quickly prioritise and improve enforcement of the regulations in this area—that is, fire safety—and indeed of other regulations, such as product safety, which may be important, and how can we do that at speed? That obviously includes the public sector, where there has been a problem in this area, and business, although in my experience business people are very well aware of the serious health and safety responsibilities they have and the liabilities that they can incur. I would like to feel that the Government were thinking about the wider lessons here and about how we might prevent such tragedies happening in this and other areas.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much for her general encapsulation of the principles that should be carried forward in relation to regulations in this field and indeed in many others, as she indicated. I say once again that the judge will no doubt want to look very seriously at the debate on this issue. My noble friend referred to the importance of carrying forward lessons in a timely and urgent way, and that is the purpose of having the expert panel. It will look at these issues urgently, even ahead of the inquiry and the interim report. This is just the sort of issue that the expert panel will want to look at, along with the point about insulation, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, following on from my noble friend’s question, given the difficulties that the London borough has faced, I am not certain that any other borough would have done better in facing such a big and unexpected tragedy. Does my noble friend intend to ask local authorities to submit a plan to central government on how they will tackle major incidents such as this? If this is to be part of the enforcement that my noble friend wanted, there will have to be clear, simple directives so that issues can be checked from central government down to local government and down to the private sector or local authority that manages each block.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of both the expert panel to which I have referred and the inquiry. It is very important that the Government create the framework for what is needed to respond to the dreadful events of the Grenfell Tower fire and to the potential for something similar happening elsewhere. However, it is for the experts to determine what is possible and necessary. Therefore, the expert panel, which has vast experience in these areas, will be looking at this situation and advising the Secretary of State of the action needed in the very short term. The interim report of the inquiry will come forward with short to medium-term issues. The full report, which will consider a far wider range of issues, will then come forward with more detailed decisions and recommendations, which we will want to take forward.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, perhaps I may come back to the interim report of the inquiry. I do not believe that the Minister gave us a timeline. Have the Government not had discussions with the chair about when we might expect to see some of the findings come to light? This is a matter of great anxiety not just in the borough but for everyone who lives in tower blocks.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the point made by the noble Baroness is a fair one but the answer is: not ahead of the terms of reference being decided. Those have to be decided first to determine when an interim report might be appropriate. Of course, such a discussion will take place once we have those terms of reference.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Is my noble friend confident that a new Conservative administration in Kensington and Chelsea will restore the public confidence that is so badly needed? Could there perhaps be a case for a short-lived coalition administration, drawing in representatives of other parties, so that these terrible issues can be tackled on a full, real, cross-party basis?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that helpful suggestion. First, it is important that we get a new leader in place and I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will then want to discuss with the leader how to carry this matter forward. As my noble friend indicated, it is always better that issues such as this, where there is essentially nothing to divide us, are carried forward consensually.