Specified Agreement on Driving Disqualifications Regulations 2017
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 9 March be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, this statutory instrument is being made to reintroduce an agreement to allow for the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Noble Lords may recall that our previous arrangement on this matter under the 1998 European Convention on Driving Disqualifications ceased to apply in the UK from 1 December 2014, when the UK exercised its right to opt out of various EU police and criminal justice matters under the treaty of Lisbon.
The United Kingdom has one of the best road safety records in the world, and this co-operation between the Administrations of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will improve it further. This measure is particularly important for the people of Northern Ireland, who share a 310 mile-long border with Ireland, where around 15,000 people cross at 300 crossing points on a daily basis, travelling between the two. Last year, traffic accidents caused 68 people to needlessly lose their lives in Northern Ireland.
In summary, if a British or Northern Irish driver receives an instant disqualification from driving while travelling in the Republic of Ireland—say, for example, for drink-driving or for causing a serious injury to another road user—the disqualification can follow the individual back home. The same is true for Irish drivers disqualified here in Britain or in Northern Ireland.
The treaty that my officials have negotiated with the Irish is almost identical to the now defunct European Convention on Driving Disqualifications—but with one important difference. The convention gave rise to a loophole in its wording, whereby some drivers could escape a ban following them home by falsely claiming normal residence in the country where the offence occurred. We have amended the wording accordingly, to close this loophole. This will ensure that those unscrupulous individuals trying to escape punishment can no longer do so.
The mutual recognition process is straightforward. When a British or Northern Irish court determines that a driver is to be disqualified, and that driver is normally resident in Ireland—the driver can be the holder of any particular driving licence, whether Irish, EU or another—the driver will be able to appeal the decision. If an appeal is either heard and rejected, or not filed, the DVLA will write to the Road Safety Authority in Ireland and inform it that a driver resident in Ireland has been disqualified. It is then that the case is referred to the Irish courts, and judges there can elect to uphold the ban. Again, the same is true of British and Northern Irish drivers disqualified in Ireland.
These measures are not to be considered as a double punishment. Drivers have the right of appeal against the initial ban, and indeed against the ban applying in the country of normal residence. But a driver who commits an offence serious enough to merit instant disqualification needs to be taken off the road both in the UK and Ireland for the appropriate duration. If the Irish court imposes the additional punishment of being forced to resit a driving test or taking an extended driving test, we in Great Britain and Northern Ireland will similarly impose such additional punishments. Any driving disqualifications arising from the totting up of penalty points are not covered in this series of measures. However, Ireland and Northern Ireland are continuing to engage on a bilateral basis, through discussions in the North/South Ministerial Council, for the mutual recognition of penalty points.
The agreement on the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications between the UK and Ireland will not be affected by the United Kingdom’s decision to leave the European Union. Indeed, as the Prime Minister herself stated on 30 January following a meeting with the Taoiseach, for the people of Ireland and Northern Ireland the ability to move freely across the border is an essential part of daily life. That is why the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister have both been clear that there will be no return to the borders of the past. Maintaining the common travel area and excellent economic links with Ireland will be important priorities for the UK in the talks ahead. I look forward to the brief debate this afternoon.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
I note that the Minister referred to the “brief debate” this afternoon. I take it that that is a statement of hope on his part—although, judging by the numbers in the Chamber at the moment, perhaps we have both misjudged the situation and the debate on the Specified Agreement on Driving Disqualifications Regulations 2011 really is packing in noble Lords. I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose of these regulations, which we support, and the background to them—but I have one or two queries that I would like to raise.
The Explanatory Note indicates that mutual recognition of driving disqualification between the UK and Ireland was previously in operation between January 2010 and December 2014, pursuant to the European Convention on Driving Disqualifications. It indicates that, following the Lisbon treaty, we opted out of the convention from December 2014 as part of a block opt-out under the treaty. It states that the purpose of this instrument is to specify a bilateral agreement dated 30 October 2015 between the UK and Ireland on the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications imposed by either state for certain specified road traffic offences, which, as I understand it, and indeed as the Minister has confirmed, do not include disqualifications arising from the totting-up process. Now that the Minister has confirmed that that is the case in relation to the totting-up process, I invite him to say a little more about why.
In the Commons the government Minister said that Northern Ireland and Ireland were engaged in bilateral discussions through the North/South Ministerial Council about the mutual recognition of penalty points, but added that it was still work in progress. Is this such a big problem that it still cannot be resolved some 18 months after the bilateral agreement dated 3 October 2015, even accepting that penalty points are assessed in a different way in Ireland? Frankly, how much longer is it going to take?
However, the main point I want to clarify is the length of time for which there has been no mutual recognition of driving disqualification between the UK and Ireland. On the understanding that the previous arrangements ceased on 1 December 2014, I simply want to clarify—although I think I know the answer—that they were not then reinstated through the signing of the bilateral agreement dated 30 October 2015, and that the impact of that agreement is being brought into effect by these regulations only some 18 months later and some two and half years after they ceased to apply. That appears to be the situation, and I think it is what the Minister has indicated.
If indeed these arrangements have not applied for that lengthy two-and-a-half-year period, why has it taken so long? Presumably, the Government had decided well in advance of the 1 December 2014 opt-out date that they would be making the block opt-out from the Lisbon treaty, and surely steps that would at least have reduced this apparently lengthy gap could have been put in train much earlier. I would like an explanation from the Government of why this whole process could not have been expedited more quickly. It does not look as though it has been given very high priority even though it relates to road safety, and even though the opt-out led to a weakening of legislative powers on road safety for which there was no supporting evidence or justification on road safety grounds.
What happened to the mutual recognitions on disqualifications then in force under the convention when we opted out? Did they remain in force, or did they then no longer have any legal standing? What is the Government's estimate of the number of people who could have been disqualified under the mutual recognition arrangements had these not apparently been brought to an end in 2014 with the opt-out, in respect of whom who it has not been possible since then to apply the mutual recognition arrangements because they have no longer been applicable since the opt-out? In particular, how many people to date have we had who have been able to drive in the United Kingdom who would not have been able to do so if we had not opted out of the convention on the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications? How many of those people have subsequently committed road traffic offences in the United Kingdom?
If the Minister thinks that I am asking for somewhat obscure information, I am certainly not; this is about road safety and potentially about people who should not be driving around on the roads in the United Kingdom. I ask for this specific information particularly in the light of paragraph 7.2 of the Government’s own Explanatory Memorandum, which accepts that it,
“is important to the UK for reasons of road safety to ensure that drivers so disqualified in Ireland cannot drive on UK roads”.
It appears that they have been able to drive on UK roads for the last two and a half years.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, maybe I was a bit presumptuous in my opening remarks, but from the response from your Lordships’ Chamber perhaps I was right that this would be a short debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his support for this measure. He has raised a number of important points. I would not for a moment suggest that his points at this time, or indeed any that he raises with me at the Dispatch Box, are not important. I of course align myself totally with his sentiments about the importance of road safety.
I shall take some of the issues that the noble Lord has raised in turn. First, on the question of why it has taken since 2014 to do this, and with regard to the European convention itself, the 1998 convention ceased to apply in the EU in December 2016. With regard to the mutual recognition between ourselves and Ireland, the only way that we could introduce these arrangements was via the treaty. The Irish constitution itself forbids agreements of this nature to be made by items such as an MoU, for example, or similar informal instruments. Such matters therefore take time to be agreed. I believe the provisions from the Irish side were carried within a wider Bill that was subsequently passed by the Irish Parliament.
On the issue of penalty points not being included, there are different methods of calculating points between the UK and Ireland. To give some practical examples, they are legally incompatible, and the UK counts one way and the Irish count the other. As to actual enforcement, different points are applied to different defences. If I may, I will get the Northern Ireland Office to write further about specific arrangements between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
On the numbers of drivers, I can tell the noble Lord that about a hundred people per year from Ireland were banned under these measures in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and about an equal number were banned under these measures in Ireland.
I think I have answered most if not all the questions that the noble Lord asked. I emphasise to him once again, as he raised the importance of this issue, that here we are on the last day of term, so to speak, and the Government are putting this forward again. That underlines the importance that we attach to ensuring these provisions can be made and translated into statute.
Lord Rosser
Did the disqualifications in force under the mutual recognition arrangements at the time of the opt-out in December 2014 continue to apply, or did they no longer have any legal status following the opt-out? Could the Minister, whatever the reasons may be, confirm that it has been a two-and-a-half year period during which people have been driving around on the roads in the UK who would not have been able to do so if that opt-out had not been made in 2014?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As I said, the convention continued and ceased to apply in the EU in December 2016. On the specific issue raised by the noble Lord about the number of people who may or may not have been driving through any intervening period, I will get that information to him in writing. I emphasise once again that the reason why there has been a delay, as he sees it, between 2014 and the date that we are now putting forward is that we were respecting the other side of the discussion, the Irish side, in ensuring that it could go through its appropriate due process to ensure that it could implement this legislation.
Transport: Pedicabs
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Couttie
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the commitment made by the Secretary of State for Transport on 26 May 2016 to regulate pedicab drivers, when the necessary legislation will be brought forward.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Government agree that the Mayor of London should have the power to regulate pedicabs, and have been working with Westminster City Council and Transport for London over the detail of a proposed regulatory system. Of course, it will be for a future Government to determine if and when the necessary legislation could be introduced.
Baroness Couttie (Con)
I thank my noble friend the Minister for his response and am encouraged by his words. Pedicabs in London are not subject to any safety checks and not covered by insurance. Drivers do not have criminal record checks and do not even need driving licences. Pedicabs regularly flout traffic regulations; for example, driving up one-way streets the wrong way or congregating in large numbers outside theatres and other tourist attractions, blocking bus lanes and access for emergency vehicles, and creating tremendous congestion. Their fares are unregulated and we have had some highly publicised examples of exorbitant fares levied on unwary passengers. There are a lot of examples of antisocial behaviour as well. Would the Minister agree that regulation needs to be brought in as soon as is practical when a new Parliament comes in?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend articulated the reasons why regulation is required in this area. Of course, she speaks from great local experience in this respect. As I already said, while this is a matter for a future Government to determine, I and the current Government have said on record that we would look towards the earliest opportunity to legislate in this respect. It remains my personal view that we should seek to regulate this industry for the reasons my noble friend stated.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, as well as the safety issues involved, there are a number of reported cases where tourists in particular have been charged extortionate amounts of money. Does the Minister accept that this is bad for the reputation of London and of Britain, and can he give us a categorical assurance that, if this Government are returned after the general election, there will be legislation in the coming year—as promised last year but that promise was broken?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
It would perhaps be presumptuous of me at the Dispatch Box to say what Government will be returned on 8 June. I have already made my position and that of the current Government clear: we would look to legislate at the earliest opportunity. The noble Baroness raises an important point about the image of London in the view of tourists who are not aware, perhaps, whether they are getting into a regulated vehicle or of the price that will be charged. I am acutely aware of the challenges the noble Baroness poses. As I said, I am certainly keen to see this area regulated at the earliest opportunity, but it is a matter for a future Government.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
I would like to explore this a little more with the Minister. I agree with the comments made so far about the problem that needs to be addressed. However, my recollection is that in May last year the Government announced that they would regulate the industry. Unless the Minister tells me I have this wrong, I thought they said then that legislation would come forward later in the year—2016. Clearly, it did not. Is this a particularly complex area to deal with? Is that why legislation did not come forward in 2016? Is it proving more difficult than thought, or is there some other reason why nothing was done within the timescale that, as far as I know, the Government originally suggested?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The Government explored various legislative vehicles, such as the opportunity for a sponsored Private Member’s Bill. As I said earlier, without pre-empting what may have happened or will happen in coming months, it is important to recognise that there were opportunities. Certain legislative vehicles in the current timetable could have been used to legislate in this respect. It remains the case—I have given a personal commitment and that of the current Government to this—that this is an important area to legislate in. We will continue to do so at the earliest opportunity if a Conservative Government are re-elected on 8 June.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, coming from a family of black cab drivers, I endorse every single word said by the noble Baroness, Lady Couttie. I press this Government or whichever Government are elected in a few weeks’ time that this should be top of the agenda for the new Transport Secretary to deal with on day one.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure that those who aspire to hold that position have taken note of the noble Lord’s comments.
Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
Can my noble friend the Minister advise us whether the Government plan to make any economic assessment of the impact of the imposition of bicycle lanes on London businesses, particularly small businesses and mobile tradesmen such as stonemasons, who effectively have had to stop serving London businesses?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As my noble friend is aware, cycle lanes are primarily a responsibility of the Mayor of London. I know that views have been expressed in this House and elsewhere, and I am sure those will be taken into account if reviews are carried out of cycle lanes and their operation in London.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
Can my noble friend assure the House that the pledge he has made to legislate on this matter will not become a manifesto commitment?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, I am not going to pre-judge the commitments in a manifesto. I have made as clear as I can at this juncture the intention of the current Government and my personal view in this respect, as someone who oversees legislation and indeed the operation and co-ordination of such activity in London with the Mayor of London. Whoever the Government are, I am sure they will continue to work with the Mayor of London in ensuring that we regulate this industry in the years to come.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, the confusion and despair that are seen as a result of this makes one think of mutinies. Of course, there was a mutiny 228 years ago tomorrow on the “Bounty”. The Royal Navy sent out 40 ships to find the mutineers. I think today we would have difficulty doing that—would they have to be pedalled to get there? Does the Minister agree that we need more ships—ideally, driven?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Pedalling in boats—that is something we have all done, perhaps, on the Serpentine in Hyde Park and elsewhere. My day would not be complete without a history lesson from the noble Lord. As ever, I greatly appreciate that.
Transport: Disabled Parking in London
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Shinkwin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with central London boroughs about disseminating best practice in the provision of parking spaces, specifically for disabled people who live and work in central London.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, no such discussions have taken place. It is the role of local authorities to manage their networks efficiently and determine their own policies for balancing the specific needs of their particular communities. However, local authorities are required to have due regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, advance equality of opportunity and foster good relations under Section 149(1) of the Equality Act 2010.
Lord Shinkwin (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. Exactly a month ago, I mentioned the problems I was having with parking in Lambeth, as recorded at column 446 of Hansard for 27 March. Since then the car that was being left in the disabled bay near where I live, sometimes for three weeks in a row and always with a blue badge on display, has been moved. So clearly someone at Lambeth Council is reading Lords Hansard because the young man I saw, who walked away from the car in question without any apparent disability, had clearly been tipped off by someone in the council not to park in the disabled bay. Blue badge misuse is a serious offence, yet Lambeth Council says that in this case there is no evidence—even though I have been advised that the blue badge in question was issued by Lambeth Council not to a young man but to a 59 year-old woman. On behalf of all those disabled people who genuinely rely on their blue badge and do not have the privilege of standing up and asking a Question in your Lordships’ House, will the Minister urge all local authorities to prioritise tackling blue badge fraud, including when it involves their own staff?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank my noble friend. First, I am sure all your Lordships are very pleased to learn that Camden Council is following our proceedings very closely.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I apologise—Lambeth. I am sure Camden is as well. The issue which the noble Lord raised specifically about Lambeth is an important and serious one. Abuse of the blue badge scheme is taken very seriously, and although enforcement is a matter for local authorities, as noble Lords may well be aware, it is a criminal offence to misuse a blue badge when parking, and offenders may be prosecuted and fined up to £1,000. I would also say to my noble friend that in 2013, the Department for Transport introduced new legislation to enable on-street civil enforcement officers to seize badges that are being misused. Previously, only the police could do this. On the point he makes about sharing good practice, I understand that there are a series of roadshows, in which the department is involved with local authorities, intended precisely to share best practice and to end this abuse.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)
My Lords, the powers of local authorities were clarified just a few years ago, as the noble Lord mentioned, in a Bill that I had the honour of taking through your Lordships’ House. Is that bearing fruit? Does the noble Lord have any figures to say whether it has produced more prosecutions of fraudulent blue badge holders?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Baroness is right to raise this. The number of prosecutions is still low compared to the reports that are received, partly because of the need to produce evidence. I was involved in local government for 10 years and had responsibility at a local level for this. Part of it is education: a lot of people sometimes park inadvertently and think it is okay for a few minutes. The other, more serious, issue is the blatant abuse of parking places by fraudulent blue badge holders, an area where there also needs to be greater education. The roadshows, which are sharing best practice, will help to address the issue of enforcement more effectively.
Lord Geddes (Con)
Can my noble friend advise the House how often checks are made of the abuse of blue badges?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As my noble friend will know, blue badges and disabled parking bays are assessed as part of any traffic enforcement that takes place in a local authority. To my knowledge, no specific initiatives are undertaken to check on this, but general enforcement of traffic management rules at a local level is conducted regularly as part of traffic enforcement in each local area.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister referred to the responsibility of local authorities to enforce the blue badge scheme. Is there not a difficulty when blue badges issued by one local authority are used incorrectly in another local authority? Do we not have to have better enforcement procedures to make sure that blue badges are not abused?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with the noble Lord, who raises a vital point. That is why looking at how we work across the board and sharing good practice will address some of the issues. Again, I stress the point that part of this is about education, information and dissemination, but those involved in traffic enforcement should know what the specific rules are in order to ensure that effective enforcement can be carried out.
Lord Laming (CB)
My Lords, could I invite the Minister to extend his comments to another aspect that affects people with disabilities of all kinds, which is parking on or obstructing pavements? This has become an increasing problem for people with mobility problems of one kind or another. When looking at this problem, could the Minister also bear in mind the need to keep pavements clear for people?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, the noble Lord raises an important point. Outside London, and indeed in certain boroughs of London, pavement parking is permitted. It causes a big issue in terms of access—and not just, dare I say it, for the disabled. I still have reasonably young children, one still in a pushchair, and this is a problem for young families attempting to get through. The noble Lord makes a very valid suggestion and we will certainly ensure that it is part of the discussion.
Bus Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ExcerptsTuesday 25th April 2017
(7 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, it will also be convenient at this time to speak to Amendments 2 to 4, Amendment 6, Amendments 12 and 13, Amendments 15 to 19 and Amendments 21 to 23. These amendments cover a range of issues demonstrating the variety of important topics debated during the passage of this Bill through both Houses. I know that all noble Lords will agree that bus passengers should be at the heart of this Bill. Its provisions will enable improvements to bus services where they are needed, and help grow passenger numbers. By working together, local authorities and operators can tackle key transport issues such as pollution and congestion. They can support local businesses and help drive the local economy.
I recognise that congestion in particular can have a major impact on local bus services. This brings me on to Amendment 1, which relates to powers to enforce moving traffic offences. The other place debated the changes made to the Bill by this House, which confer powers to enforce moving traffic offences such as those in yellow box junctions on authorities that have established an advance quality partnership scheme. However, it was recognised that Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 already provides the Secretary of State with the ability to confer powers to enforce moving traffic offences on authorities. It was also further acknowledged that local authorities already had the ability to address issues of congestion, be that through using new infrastructure measures or technological solutions or by enforcing moving traffic offences in bus lanes. Additionally, through franchising and partnership schemes local authorities and bus operators will be able to further work together to address local congestion in a more targeted way.
A key concern remains that such powers could be misused to generate revenue for local authorities rather than for traffic management purposes. Instead, we shall be encouraging local authorities and bus operators to use the powers in the Bill to develop local solutions to local congestion pinch points.
Amendments 2, 6 and 15 respond to what I know were well-intentioned moves by this House to seek the greater use of low-emission buses. We are all in agreement that we should encourage these sorts of behaviours. Following early discussions in this House, the Government set it out explicitly in the Bill that emissions standards may be included as part of both franchising and partnership schemes. However, I believe that the Bill needs to strike the right balance between giving authorities the right tools for the job and being overly prescriptive about how improvements are to be achieved. There is a real danger that requiring all new buses used to deliver services as part of a partnership or franchising scheme that come into service after 1 April 2019 to be low emission would simply mean that bus schemes could become prohibitively expensive, with the real risk of authorities being unlikely to pursue these schemes at all. This could lead to less bus use and, with that, worse environmental outcomes than would have been achieved without these provisions. I hope that my further explanation as to why we have taken the approach that we have to these subjects will mean that noble Lords can support the current Motion.
I turn now to Amendments 16 to 18 on the open data provisions. There has been a positive welcome to Clause 18, which will facilitate the provision to passengers of information about timetables, fares, routes and tickets, and live information. Since the Bill was last in this place, my officials have held workshops to develop further the practical delivery of these provisions. Stakeholders have stressed the importance of two existing datasets that are currently maintained by local authorities which accurately and uniquely describe and locate all bus stops in a common format. These datasets are vital to the production of meaningful journey-planning information for passengers. However, they are currently maintained by local authorities on a voluntary basis. These amendments simply ensure that if it becomes necessary, regulations could be made that require local transport authorities to provide information other than in the context of franchising, and information about stopping places to be provided by local transport authorities or operators.
I turn now to those who work for local bus companies. In this House we quite rightly had a great deal of debate about the importance of consultation in relation to bus partnership and franchising schemes and who must be consulted. The Government accepted and were happy to include Transport Focus and the national park authorities as statutory consultees. Special thanks must go to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who is not in his place this afternoon, for his passionate advocacy of the latter’s importance.
We also introduced amendments to require authorities to consult employee representatives about proposed franchising schemes. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, provided helpful input to our thinking on this matter. I completely understand the need for employee representatives to be consulted on franchising schemes, as those proposals could have a direct impact on bus industry employees in such an area. Following a debate in the other place, it was agreed that some of the potential duplications in the Bill relating to the consultation of employee representatives and trade unions on franchising schemes should be clarified. This is reflected in Amendments 12 and 13. It was also felt that authorities should have greater freedom on who to consult in relation to the advanced quality partnership schemes than had been provided for in the Lords text. This is reflected in Amendments 3 and 4. The Bill, therefore, now provides for an authority to be required to consult employee representatives on franchising schemes, and it may choose to do so for partnership schemes should it consider that appropriate.
Finally, this group contains Amendments 19 and 21 to 23, which address housekeeping matters and remove the privilege amendment. The latter is a procedural technicality. I hope noble Lords feel that I have given the variety of topics justice here and will agree to support the Motion to approve these Commons amendments.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, throughout its passage, the Liberal Democrats have supported the principles behind the Bill and we believe that it is a long overdue response to a fairly chaotic situation with bus services in many parts of the country outside London. Indeed, while we have been debating the Bill, the number of bus services and miles covered by those services throughout England outside London has reduced significantly as the number of local authorities’ subsidised routes has reduced and some bus companies have ceased to function. There is a desperate need to do something and we agree with the general tenor of the Bill.
We would have wished to make the Bill more radical, as I have made clear on a number of occasions. We would have wanted more devolution and powers to local authorities, more action to assist disabled passengers, more measures to protect the environment and the health of our citizens and more consultation. Indeed, some of our amendments were accepted and have remained in the Bill throughout the Commons process, but not all of them. I am disappointed that so many were removed.
However, we are grateful that in this group there are government amendments to clarify the role and independence of auditors. The first amendment in the group was put forward by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw in relation to giving local authorities powers over moving traffic offences. The Minister said just now that the Government feared that local authorities would use that power simply to make money. That is a fairly flimsy excuse for rejecting the idea because it would be so easy for the Government to produce an amendment that restricted local authorities’ ability to do that. That could have been dealt with within the regulations that will flow from the Bill or within the Bill itself.
In relation to the Minister’s comments on emissions and the speed with which we can replace bus fleets, London is of course well under way with the process, as are several other local authorities and cities. The technology is there. The alternative fuels are there. It is the Government’s role to at least push businesses into operating in the most environmentally friendly way. On bus emissions, of course there is the pressing issue of the health of our citizens. The Government are only too aware, despite their failure yesterday to produce a plan to address this issue, of the need for urgent action on this. Not only am I disappointed that the Government failed to meet the legal timetable for producing a response on air quality in general, I am disappointed that they have taken the view on this particular Bill that there does not need to be a stronger government steer on the issue of emissions from bus services.
I support the Government’s changes on the provision of data. That is very important. Evidence shows that many people are deterred from becoming bus passengers because of a lack of knowledge and information about where the bus stops and how they pay for a ticket. How one pays for a ticket can vary from one local authority area to another. That kind of information can be so easily supplied and the Government have rightly emphasised that in the Bill. We support that.
Having said all that, we are grateful for the hearing the Minister gave us and for the way many organisations involved in bus services across Britain engaged in the process of the Bill so we could use and harness their knowledge and expertise, which has helped. My final point is that we shall not seek to oppose the changes made in the Commons, but we accept them with some sadness.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I intend to speak relatively briefly on this group of amendments. The Opposition have generally supported the overall aims of the Bill. We have welcomed it and see it as an important step towards increasing the number of bus journeys, particularly outside London where there has been a collapse in the number of journeys in recent years. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, we would have liked the Bill to have gone further, but equally we accept that we have made welcome progress on it; as I say, we support its overall aims. Like other noble Lords, we generally accept the changes on data. The deletion of provisions in respect of emissions is regrettable. Air quality is now a very big issue in terms of people’s health. The number of deaths which can be attributed to poor air quality is something we should all be concerned about and I think that the Government have taken a retrograde step.
My noble friend Lord Whitty mentioned consultation of employees. That is very important and again it is a shame that the Government have largely deleted or watered down the provisions in that regard. Whether the Government like it or not, the bus industry is heavily unionised, which has generally been of benefit to it. The unions work well with the various bus companies and seek to provide a public service. I do not see any benefit in what the Government have done. As my noble friend suggested, I suspect that other forces in the Commons are at work here who do not quite see it that way. What the Government have done is a mistake. I will come on to other things I regret when we consider further amendments.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords for participating in this short debate and for the broad support for the Bill. Indeed, that was quite clear during its passage through your Lordships’ House. Particularly on the issue of data sharing, I thank both the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their evident welcome for data sharing, which we all believe is a positive step forward. On the issue of emissions, I suggest that this is not a low priority given that quite specific reference is made to it in the provisions in the Bill. Indeed, local authorities can specify this element in any proposals they make when procuring bus services.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, talked about me being cut down at the knees. When you stand at only about five feet six you are quite protective of your knees anyway so any further cutting down is not welcome. I assure the noble Lord that the sentiments of your Lordships’ House were fully expressed and I challenge the assumption that employee representatives are not being consulted. On the contrary, they will be. I suggest to the noble Lord that trade unions are an important employee representative. Of course, trade unions fall within the scope of what an employee representative body is, so in that sense I disagree with him. In saying all that, I again welcome the contributions that were made during the passage of the Bill and the broad support for the proposed Commons amendments.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House agrees with the Commons in their Amendments 2 to 4.
“But each of paragraphs (b) to (f) has effect only if the Secretary of State by regulations so provides.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 7 to 11. Bus franchising has received a great deal of attention both in your Lordships’ House and in the other place, as well as across the country. In particular, there has been discussion about which local authorities in England should be able to access the franchising powers within the Bill.
It was felt in your Lordships’ House that in the spirit of fairness, all local authorities should have automatic access to these powers regardless of whether a local authority is serious in its intent to franchise and without any consideration of its suitability to take franchising forward. Moving to franchising is a serious step and should not be undertaken lightly. That is why Amendments 5 and 7 are so important. During the debate in the other place, there was significant concern that the ability of any local authority to move to franchising at any time would lead to operators across England thinking twice about their investment decisions, thus reducing the quality and attractiveness of local bus services. Given this risk, it was agreed that automatic access to franchising powers should be available only to mayoral combined authorities.
I am sure that noble Lords who wish to see franchising happen want it to be successful, as indeed we all do. We want to ensure that franchising powers can be made available to authorities which have the ability, powers and, most importantly, the financial capacity to make a success of franchising where that franchising will benefit passengers. Combined authorities with mayors, when established, will provide clear, centralised decision-making for transport across a relatively wide local area, such as a city region. However, let me stress that other areas should also be able to access franchising powers where they are well placed to make franchising a success and have a clear plan to benefit passengers. These amendments enable other authorities to apply to the Secretary of State to access the powers.
Let me be clear: the Secretary of State will not take the final decision on whether franchising proceeds in those areas. That will be a local decision. The Bill sets out clearly the process that any authority needs to follow before the mayor or a named individual such as a council leader can take the decision to move to franchising. This refresh of bus franchising powers honours our devolution deal commitments. Included in this process is the development of an assessment of the proposed franchising scheme—essentially a business case. Within this assessment, the authority would need to consider value for money and the affordability of the proposal.
Amendments 8 to 11 clarify further the independence of the auditor—a point we covered briefly in the previous debate—that a franchising authority is required to use to produce a report on certain aspects of its proposed scheme. This report must set out whether, in the opinion of the auditor, the authority has relied on information of sufficient quality in its assessment as well as whether its analysis is of sufficient quality.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, as this group of amendments refers to mayoral combined authorities I should probably remind the House of my declaration of interests. I am a locally elected councillor and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
Generally, these are wider issues in respect of local authorities and combined authorities but we have now brought them into the Bill. I accept that it is through another department, but there is an obsession in government with mayors and it needs to be dealt with. I have never yet had it explained to me clearly why, to get these powers, you have to have such a mayor. I still do not understand why, although we keep asking. I am sure we will get something today, but I am not sure whether the Government are clear why they have to have this: you may be a combined authority, but unless you have a mayor, you cannot have these franchising powers. We are still not clear on that, and they will have to deal with their obsession with mayors at some point.
This makes a wider point about the question of the devolution of local government in England, which is, to say the least, now very confused. I remember that in an earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, who is not in his place at the moment—I am sorry, he is in his place—explained that there would now be four tiers of local government in Cambridgeshire. That seems to me at least one or two tiers too many. I accept that that goes wider than the issue of mayors in these authorities today, but it will have to be dealt with.
Franchising is the way forward. It has been enormously successful in London. I am delighted that these authorities with mayors can get these franchising powers and I hope that other authorities, if they come together to apply for them, will be successful. But at some point the Government will have to look at the much wider issue of what bus services they want in England. I think they will have to go further down this route; equally, I accept that they have made a move in the right direction here.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I once again thank all noble Lords for their contributions during this brief debate. Perhaps I may briefly pick up on a few points.
First, the noble Lord, Lord Snape, raised the specific issue of congestion and said that the Bill perhaps still does not address this. I disagree with him. The new types of partnership and franchising powers give authorities new ways to work with operators to improve journeys for passengers.
On the issue of the independent auditor, I accept the fact that the Government’s position differs from when we introduced the Bill—that point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, among others. As a Minister, I feel that it is sometimes odd—I am sure I am not alone in this, whether among Ministers from a previous Administration or the current one—first, that Ministers are told that they do not listen. Then, having listened and reflected, if we make a change which perhaps reflects the feelings of Members, as it did on this occasion in your Lordships’ House, we are told that we are taking a contrary position to what we had originally after we have listened. I suppose there is a lesson for all in that. It is important that what is said, discussed and debated in your Lordships’ House is reflected in the discussions we have in government, and I am pleased to say that the very discussions and debates we had in your Lordships’ House are reflected in the amendments that the Government have made in respect of the independent auditor.
I understand the point my noble friend Lord Attlee makes about the need for the auditor to be independent. As ever, we will fully consider his helpful advice as part of the guidance. I thank noble Lords for their broad agreement on this issue.
My final point is addressed to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. This is not an obsession with mayors or mayoral authorities. As I have said before during the passage of the Bill, the route to franchising is open to all authorities which can make a justifiable business case. We have previously detailed the criteria required, and that remains the case.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House agrees with the Commons in their Amendments 6 to 13.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House agrees with the Commons in their Amendment 14.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, Amendments 14 and 20 reinstate the original provisions of the Bill which prohibit local authorities establishing companies for the purpose of operating local bus services. The role of municipal bus companies has received a good deal of debate in your Lordships’ House and the other place. There are a few fundamental points worth making. First, we all agree that there are some very good municipal bus companies, such as Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport. They deliver a high standard of service, and I expect they will continue to do so. Let me assure noble Lords that their ability to operate will not be affected by this provision.
However, very few municipal bus companies remain, with many having been sold to some of our more successful private bus companies—for example, in February, Thamesdown Transport in Swindon was bought by the Go-Ahead Group after many years of making a loss—so I do not think this amendment is likely to impact on the plans of many, if any, local authorities. The Bill is all about improving services for passengers, and authorities should now start thinking about utilising the knowledge and skills of existing bus companies to get the best results. This amendment ensures that we get the balance right between local authority influence and private sector delivery in order to ensure both are incentivised to deliver the best services for the benefit of passengers.
I hope that noble Lords will understand that, because of the importance of this balance to the overall Bill, our view remains that passengers will see most benefit where the commissioning and provision of bus services are kept separate, and we do not think that authorities should be able to set up new bus companies. I hope that noble Lords will agree these amendments will enable the important business of the implementation of the measures contained in this Bill, which we all acknowledge to be important, to begin so benefits to bus services and, more importantly, bus passengers can start to be delivered on the ground. I beg to move.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, although it is not the subject of the Bill, as it operates in Wales, I shall say a word about Cardiff Bus. It is a municipal bus company with a good record. I still do not understand how it is so important to the Government to remove this power, which has been in the local authority armoury for decades. As the Minister has just pointed out, it has not been used as a general issue at all.
I am also confused as to why these examples of really good bus companies run by local authorities at arm’s length are not a template for possible future development. It is blindingly clear at the moment that local authority finances in Britain are so poor that authorities are not going to be using this power in the near future in some kind of aggrandisement. There is not going to be a mass use of this power by local authorities wanting to build up vast transport empires. It is simply not on the cards.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I very much agree that, as we have heard, the amendments in this group are just about party-political dogma, and it is a shame that the Government have reversed the decision we made in this House some time ago. I was disappointed but, again, maybe not surprised. There never was going to be a stampede of local authorities charging off to create municipal bus companies. It was never going to happen and I never really understood why the Government were so obsessed with this particular clause in what generally was, and is, a very good Bill—we welcome the Bill but I just never really understood that.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, I agree that there are some very good municipal bus companies, such as Nottingham City Transport, Ipswich Buses and many others, and I accept that this amendment will not affect them in any way whatever. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, made the point about what a local authority maybe could do to deal with a problem, even if for a very short period of time, and it is disappointing that that will now not be possible. That is a great shame, particularly in rural areas. For that reason, I think the Government have made a terrible mistake here and I wish they were not going to do this, but clearly they will not listen on this occasion. It is most regrettable.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, I again thank both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their contributions. I accept of course that there was great strength of feeling on this issue as it passed through your Lordships’ House, but clearly, when you have a Bill with wide application, there will be areas of disagreement between government and opposition parties. On this issue, as I have already stated, the Government have acknowledged and indeed accepted the important role that existing municipal bus companies play, and that will continue to be the case. However, this Bill is designed to enable bus operators and authorities to work constructively together to deliver better services for passengers, and it is the Government’s belief that the creation of further municipal bus companies would actually significantly stifle competition, particularly in terms of private sector investment in buses. Although we accept noble Lords’ sentiments on this, the Government maintain their position.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House agrees with the Commons in their Amendments 15 to 23.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I take this opportunity once again to thank all noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, alongside my noble friend Lord Younger for their support during the passage of the Bill. I thank other noble Lords too; while we may not have agreed on everything, I think we agree on the principle of the importance of getting the Bill through because it is important for improving bus services for passengers across the piece. I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 15 to 23.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, before we do, I would equally like to say that I have very much enjoyed working with the Minister on this Bill. Generally it is very good. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Younger, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the Bill team. Generally we are happy. As I say, I have enjoyed working with the Minister; he has been very courteous at all times during the passage of the Bill.
Merchant Shipping (Homosexual Conduct) Bill
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ExcerptsThursday 6th April 2017
(7 years, 7 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Scott for bringing forth this Bill on this important issue—the contributions during this short debate have illustrated that poignantly. My noble friend set out in detail why it is right that we should progress. I am grateful also to my noble friend Lord Black and the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Rosser, for their contributions.
Although the Bill has limited practical effects, as all noble Lords have acknowledged, and does not change the rights and responsibilities of any person today, it has deeply symbolic importance. As was said by my ministerial colleague on Second Reading in the other place,
“the laws that we pass in this place and that form our statute book represent”—
in a very real sense—
“the established morals and values of our country. It is right therefore that when the statute book contains wording that is inconsistent with those values we should change that wording. For that reason, the Government are happy to state now, formally, that we support this measure”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/1/17; col. 1236.]
Noble Lords will also understand that when the Government decide to support a Private Member’s Bill, they undertake an analysis of whether it is compatible with the rights enshrined in the Human Rights Act. I am happy to confirm for the record that, in my view, the provisions of this Bill are totally compatible with those rights.
My noble friend Lady Scott has spelled out the proceedings that took the Bill out of the other place and bring it before us today. I do not intend to detain the House further in that respect. However, it is interesting to note in respect of the Wiltshire connection that the Bill was taken through the other place by my honourable friend John Glen, who is the MP for Salisbury, and that it was Viscount Cranborne—now the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury—who took the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act through this House in 1994. I am glad to see the continuing interest of the good people of Salisbury in this issue.
I want to take a few minutes to explain briefly the history behind the provisions that the Bill seeks to remove. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 was a significant milestone in the development of LGBT rights in the United Kingdom. The Act is the last UK Act to have a whole part entitled simply, “Homosexuality”. As the noble Lord recounted earlier, it was responsible for reducing the age of homosexual consent from 21 to 18. It also removed some of the last remaining criminal liability for acts of homosexual sex. Sex between adults of the same sex was generally decriminalised by Section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 1967, but that Act maintained criminal liability for homosexual sex that was contrary to military discipline or occurred on board a merchant ship. That liability was removed in the 1994 Act by Section 146(1), (2) and (3), for England, Wales and Scotland, and by Section 147(1) and (2) for Northern Ireland. However, the sections that we are dealing with today, Sections 146(4) and 147(3), were added during the passage of the Bill following amendments made by a Member of your Lordships’ House—a point already acknowledged by noble Lords.
Of course, time has moved on. We heard a poignant history of how this House, the other House and society have moved on. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, recounted the history of how the rights of individuals have increasingly been protected. It is right that we move forward in line with history and in line with society today.
As I mentioned earlier, the sections in question are of no current effect. Moreover, any attempt to discharge a member of the UK Merchant Navy from their employment on the basis of their sexuality would now be unlawful by reason of equality legislation. My noble friend Lord Black mentioned Alan Turing. I remember from this very Dispatch Box responding to the Private Member’s Bill in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, who is not in his place. I recognise his efforts in that respect as we move forward in the right vein. Today, we shall do so again.
Sections have become shorter as time has gone on. Sections 146(4) and 147(3) of the Act have been progressively repealed, most recently by the Armed Forces Act 2016, which removed all references to Armed Forces. The Government could not do anything about provisions relating to the Merchant Navy in 2016 because, despite the name, the Merchant Navy is not part of the Armed Forces. Such an amendment could not be made out of scope. Nevertheless, the Government committed that they would address this point as soon as possible. At this juncture, I can only congratulate my noble friend on beating the Government to it.
We have reached a stage where the provisions in the 1994 Act refer only to the Merchant Navy and they are in any event defunct. Despite that, the policy behind the current statutory wording is unambiguous. It amounts to a statement that homosexual conduct per se is incompatible with employment on merchant vessels. Getting rid of that statement is a wholly laudable aim and I applaud my noble friend and all noble Lords here for supporting it today. It may be true that this measure is symbolic, but as my noble friend Lady Scott has made clear, there are very good reasons to support symbolic measures, including because they give clarity and tidy up the statute book, but also because, as I said at the start of my speech, the laws that are in force in the United Kingdom in 2017 should reflect the values of our great country in 2017. The Bill will do exactly that, and for that reason I hope that it can make rapid progress today and receive the support that it truly deserves.
Lord Swinfen (Con)
I quite understand that the Bill will apply to British ships in British waters and elsewhere in the world, but what is the position with foreign-flagged ships that happen to be in British waters when the homosexual act takes place? Their foreign laws may not apply in the same way that ours do.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I acknowledge my noble friend’s point. Of course, ships are reflective of the flag under which they are registered. In terms of specifics and in terms of territories, when they are in Britain they should reflect the laws of our land, especially laws relating to British territorial waters and British land. I will write to my noble friend on the issue and share that with all noble Lords.
HS2 and CH2M
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to hold an inquiry into the proposed contractual arrangements between HS2 and CH2M.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Government will not be holding an inquiry, as this is a matter for HS2 Ltd. HS2 Ltd has undertaken a thorough review in light of the queries raised. Decisions on any further steps are a matter for the board of HS2 Ltd and may include increased scrutiny of compliance by bidders with HS2’s requirements with respect to conflicts of interest, particularly for HS2’s higher-value or higher-risk procurements.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I fear that that Answer sounds a touch complacent on the Government’s part. This is a depressing indictment of HS2’s working practices. In view of a number of problems recently at HS2, is the Minister still confident that the first phase of HS2 will be completed within budget and on time? Can he confirm that the Government are still fully committed to phases 2a and 2b?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I cannot agree with the premise of the noble Baroness’s initial comments. When issues came to the fore, HS2’s due processes were followed and CH2M took a decision which I think we all regard as the right one at that time. The Government are absolutely committed to HS2 in all its stages—she referred particularly to stages 2a and 2b. We remain on course also to deliver on the hybrid Bill by 2019.
Lord Framlingham (Con)
My Lords, given the deep and growing concern about this ridiculously expensive and unnecessary project, will the Minister commit today to making sure that it is subject to the most scrupulous transparency so that we can all see, as it progresses, just how expensive, how complicated and how ridiculous it is?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I acknowledge that my noble friend has not been the biggest fan of this project. As I am sure noble Lords will acknowledge, this underwent full scrutiny during the passage of the Bill in both the House of Commons and in particular in your Lordships’ House. My noble friend referred to transparency. I am sure that he will acknowledge that many elements of the business contracts awarded are of a confidential nature and that it would be totally inappropriate to require that they were all fully transparent.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, why have the Government allowed this potential conflict of interest to fester for so many months? The two senior civil servants in the department left last week. I still have not had an answer to evidence that I submitted to the noble Lord and other Ministers that the cost of phase 1 will be about double what the Government say it is. Are the Government, HS2 and the Minister’s officials really committed to getting the governance right, the costs right and the programme right, or is this the start of rats leaving a sinking ship, which I hope it is not?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
To continue with transport analogies, HS2 remains on track, so there are no sinking ships. The noble Lord referred to two senior civil servants within the DfT. One is the Permanent Secretary, who has a new role at the Home Office; I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate that there is a long recruitment process. The other was the director-general of HS2, who is taking up a post at Oxford University. We wish them both well in their new roles.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, might the Minister turn his attention to Crossrail? It is a major infrastructure project. There are many such infrastructure projects, including HS2. The Crossrail management team has stayed the same all the way through the project and it looks as if it is going to be delivered as it was planned. Other infrastructure schemes have suffered changes of personnel and changes of consultant throughout their life. Will the Government look at making the people who start projects stay with them so that we can judge their performance?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Let me assure the noble Lord on the subject of Crossrail. The fact that it is delivering on time, the management is in place and it is on budget has nothing to do with the fact that I am the Crossrail Minister. On the point he raises about large infrastructure projects, of course he is right: we want a sustained level of continuity in management for all large infrastructure projects. That is an important part of the delivery of all projects and I note his concern in that respect.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
As I understand it, in January of this year it was announced that the European managing director of the global engineering company CH2M, which is mentioned in this Question, would be the new chief executive of HS2. Last month in a Written Answer, the Minister said that there were 84 CH2M people located in HS2 Ltd offices, with 37 CH2M staff on secondment to HS2. In view of this, how many of the other bidders had similarly close connections of this kind with HS2 at the time decisions were made on which bid should be accepted for the phase 2b development contract? Can the Minister confirm—I think he has half said it, but I am not entirely sure—that the Government are satisfied, in the light of what I have said, that the procurement process up to the time that HS2 said in February that CH2M would become its phase 2 development partner was run in accordance with and in the spirit of the laid-down guidelines, standards and requirements with which HS2 is presumably expected by the Government to comply?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The short answer to the second part of the noble Lord’s question is yes. In terms of the specifics—the other bidders and the numbers involved—I will write to him.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
Does that mean that we will be told whether Bechtel had people inside HS2 as well?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure that the noble Lord raises that question as he is aware of other bidders. Again, I am sure he will respect the confidentiality of the allocation and award of the DP contract, which has still to be made. As I said, I will take back the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and ensure that other noble Lords who are interested are accorded a reply.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, is it right that the business case for HS2 was based on it being extended to Scotland? When is that going to happen?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As the noble Lord is aware, Scotland will benefit. Indeed, the first phase and phases 2a and 2b will be of net benefit, so I can assure him that when he travels from London to Scotland he will arrive in good time; indeed, quickly.
Diesel Vehicles
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 7 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Environment Secretary and the Transport Secretary will consult on a revised air quality plan later this month. Both departments are working across government and with local authorities to tackle air quality problems in our cities and towns. Since 2011, the Government have committed more than £2 billion to increase the uptake of ultra-low emissions vehicles and support greener transport schemes, with a further £290 million committed in 2016.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that diesel emissions from vehicles contribute to the early death of 30,000 people in the UK and 9,000 people in London and seriously endanger the health of children? Do we have to leave it to the Mayor of London to show any leadership in this?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is right to point out the health issues which arise from emissions, particularly of nitrogen dioxide from diesel vehicles. The noble Lord mentioned the Mayor of London and I acknowledge the efforts that the mayor is making in this respect. However, I am sure that the noble Lord would agree that this requires a partnership across government, within London and with local authorities to ensure that we get the results we all desire.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, unless you are buying a purely electric car, from 1 April this year, if you buy a new car, you will end up paying more car tax for a low-emission car than under the old car tax system and less for a highly polluting car than under the old system. Can the Minister explain how that will incentivise people to buy low-emission vehicles?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Baroness drives an electric car and is well placed to ask that question. The Government are focused on ensuring a sustainable revenue stream for English roads raised through vehicle excise duties. Under the new system, after the first year all new cars will pay the same but no existing cars will pay any more tax. Also under the new system there will be strong incentives in the first year, again, to buy the cleanest vehicles.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that after the introduction of speed bumps in Hyde Park the rate of pollution went up tremendously because of the delays they caused to traffic? Is it not now incumbent on whoever is responsible for traffic lights in London to ensure that they are phased to use the best timing? I say this because a horrible bicycle lane has been introduced in Bayswater Road and although it has been hell while it was being constructed, traffic is now moving at least reasonably well; but when you get near to Marble Arch, all traffic is stuck and the huge pile-back is worse than the bike lane ever was because the phasing of the lights needs to be adjusted. Will the Minister ask the people responsible for traffic lights to consider adjusting the timing?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Given my noble friend’s knowledge of London roads, she is well suited to be adviser to the Mayor of London. She makes the salient point that we need to ensure that any road schemes are integrated and that any changes that are implemented are sustainable for the long term in addressing the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, in his Question.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
My Lords, one of the problems I have with this Government is that they show no leadership on issues that are national scandals. Air pollution is not only killing thousands of people every year, it is reducing children’s lung capacity so that in the future they will have endless respiratory problems. Why do the Government not see that the health of the people is their biggest concern?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I do not agree with the noble Baroness, and perhaps I may put this into context. I have already talked about a total of £2 billion spent since 2011, with £116 million invested in green bus technology. We have also talked about the £5 million investment by Transport for London in 900 buses, along with £14.1 million for the clean bus technology fund, £8 million for the clean vehicle technology fund and £100 million for Highways England. Those are some of the examples of how the Government are putting money towards schemes across the country for transport support. I accept that we are currently facing challenges on health, but at the same time we are pursuing sustainable transport solutions.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the modern diesel engines being produced at Dagenham among other places are so much better than the old ones that the very best thing the owner of an old diesel car can do to avoid poisoning our children is to buy a new car?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That is why the Government are incentivising new cars in our tax regime, in road tax. On diesel, what we need to consider carefully—and history is a source of great learning on this—is that although change might sound appropriate and the right thing to do at the time, we need to ensure that whatever changes and schemes the Government put money behind are sustainable over the long term.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
The Minister has referred more than once to the fact that the Government are looking at the issue which has been raised by my noble friend Lord Dubs but he has not said what action they propose to take to reduce the number of diesel vehicles. I am still not entirely clear whether the Government envisage taking further action or not. The Minister has referred to what the Government have already done, but are they looking at taking further action? If so, by when will we know what that action is likely to be?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, to continue on the sustainable theme, I am inclined to say “shortly”, but I will not do so. As the noble Lord is aware—I have already alluded to it—the Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, supported by the Secretary of State for Transport, will publish the new air quality plan later this month. That is to be a consultation and will provide the time and the opportunity to consider the issues. I encourage all noble Lords to contribute to the consultation to ensure that when the final plan is published in the summer, it reflects the concerns that have rightly been raised in your Lordships’ House.
Lord Cormack (Con)
If my noble friend accepts, as he did earlier, that gridlock can lead to extra pollution, does he not accept that the proliferation of cycle lanes has made an enormous contribution to gridlock, stagnation and therefore pollution?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend again makes a forceful point and I am sure that the Mayor of London, among others, will take note of it.
Aviation: Large Electronic Device Ban
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the reasons for their decision to ban large electronic devices from aircraft cabins on flights from certain countries.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the safety and security of the travelling public will always be our primary concern, and this Government will not hesitate in putting in place any measures that we believe are necessary, effective and proportionate. The whole House will recognise that we face a constantly evolving threat from terrorism and we must respond accordingly to ensure the protection of the public against those who would do us harm.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I agree wholeheartedly with the Minister that the security and safety of our people must be our priority, so I am concerned about the shortcomings of this decision. As we discovered so tragically here last week, terrorism can emerge from the most unlikely places, so why have only six countries been selected for this ban and how can it work if it does not apply to all flights, wherever their origin? I believe Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Australia and New Zealand have already decided not to implement a ban. How can it work across the world if not every country is co-operating?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, the events of last week were a stark reminder to us all of the nature of the challenge we face. Indeed, there was a Question on this very subject scheduled for that day, which we could not take. On the specifics of the noble Baroness’s question, how our European partners act is very much a matter for their respective Governments. We have acted in accordance with what we believe is the best interests of the United Kingdom, and Her Majesty’s Government will continue to act in that manner.
Viscount Ridley (Con)
Can my noble friend explain why a laptop in the cabin is dangerous if a laptop in the hold is not?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend asks a specific question on the new measures which have been implemented. I am sure that he will respect the fact that I cannot go into the specific detail behind the reasons why we have taken these measures. However, we keep all aviation security measures under constant review and have acted in accordance with that review. On the matter of laptops now being pressed into the hold, the CAA is also issuing specific advice to carriers dealing with that.
Baroness Corston (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister must know that the success of this policy decision depends on airports in other countries. How confident is he about that?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I assure the noble Baroness— indeed, the whole House—that the Government have acted from the very top. There has been engagement at ministerial level. I have engaged with several host countries, as has the Secretary of State and other Ministers, including the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Foreign Affairs responsible for some of those countries. We have also dealt directly with the airlines from some of those host countries as well as British carriers, and I can assure all Members of your Lordships’ House that all are co-operating fully.
Lord Pannick (CB)
Can the Minister explain what is the point of this decision if, as will be the case, these devices can be flown to Brussels or Paris and then flown to London?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
It will apply to transiting passengers as well, if the flight is scheduled for London. As I said in response to a previous question, if those flights are going to other European capitals from the countries that we have listed, that is very much a matter for those European Governments.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, a recent change in airline policy means that on many occasions, if there is a stopover flight, you cannot check your hold luggage through to your final destination. What is to stop someone concealing a laptop bomb in their hold luggage in one of the six countries affected by the ban and then, when they collect their bags at the stopover airport, taking that laptop bomb and putting it in their hand luggage in a country where the laptop ban does not apply?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
If a person is coming through on transfer, the same rules will apply to them. Let me be absolutely clear that this is a measure that we have taken for six countries, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware. Anyone transferring through to any UK airport will be subject to the same restrictions.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, using an iPhone, you can turn on your central heating from some distance. Surely the same could be done with a bomb. Why are not iPhones included in the ban?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As I already said, I will not comment on the specifics of the reasoning for this action. We monitor all issues of security and evolving threats and will continue to do so.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister did not deal with a previous question. I ask him for an assurance that he personally, as Aviation Minister, is satisfied with the reasons he has been given why the electronic devices in question present a threat if carried in the cabin of the aircraft but not if they are carried in the hold. Can he give us his personal assurance that he is satisfied with the reasons that he has been given, as Aviation Minister, why in one scenario there is a danger and in the other there is not? I will pursue another question that has already been asked, and ask for very firm assurances: can the Minister confirm that the Government are satisfied with the security arrangements and standards at the airports in the six countries concerned from which the inbound flights to the UK affected by the new arrangements are departing? Can he provide that unequivocal assurance?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, on the noble Lord’s specific questions about providing assurances, our intelligence agencies, which are some of the best among the world, provide the advice on the evolving security threat that we monitor. As for giving a personal assurance as the Aviation Minister responsible, of course we look to our security and intelligence agencies. This is an evolving threat and we continue to monitor it and, based on that, we have put in additional security measures. On the second question, of course I can also give the noble Lord the assurance that on the additional security measures, as I have said, we are working specifically with the carriers, British and foreign. I have spoken to them directly myself. Officials are working with them and, equally and most importantly, we are working with those countries and airports that have been identified and continue to receive full co-operation to ensure that those embarking on a visit to those countries, and indeed returning from those countries, are safe and secure.
Lord Dykes
Does not the Minister realise that the implication of all the previous questions—including the Question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—is that this policy will not work unless it becomes universal, because the public internationally have to be reassured that flying is going to be safe in future? These devices are getting more and more sophisticated and a universal ban will be necessary in the end, so that people can resume using their smartphones and tablets when they land but not while planes are in the air.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Let me again assure the noble Lord and the whole House that Her Majesty’s Government act in the best interests of our citizens. We do not take these issues lightly, as all previous Governments have not, and we have acted in exactly the same manner. We will continue to put the interests of the UK travelling public first. As to a universal ban, as I have said already this is a matter for individual Governments, but of course we talk to our European partners. This is very much a matter for each sovereign Government to make in accordance with how they see fit.
Lord Marlesford
In view of what my noble friend has been saying about being satisfied with airport security in some of these countries, and given that Egypt has been put on that list, will he now accelerate the resumption of flights to Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt by British carriers—German carriers are allowing it? It is wrecking the Egyptian tourist industry, which is doing huge damage to the Egyptian economy, when Egypt is one of the countries that is very much on our side and is trying to inject an element of real stability and prosperity into the Middle East.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend raises the specific issue of Sharm el-Sheikh. As he will be aware, Her Majesty’s Government—indeed, officials from my department—work specifically with the Egyptians on the ground. Yes, indeed, measures have been improved in Sharm el-Sheikh, but I remind him and your Lordships’ House that even though the tragic events on the Metrojet flight were well over a year and a half ago, in October 2015, we have not yet seen the final report from either the Egyptians or the Russians relating to that incident.
Shipping: Safety
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effectiveness of the international safety regulations and procedures laid down in the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea to ensure the safe evacuation of ships carrying more than 5,000 passengers and crew.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, assessments of the safety regime for shipping are undertaken by the International Maritime Organization’s Maritime Safety Committee. The particular issue of large passenger ship evacuation was the subject of significant additional work following the loss of the “Costa Concordia”, and regulations relating to passenger safety drills were subsequently adopted internationally.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but if something happens to a cruise ship of, say, 10,000 people—passengers and crew—in the middle of the Atlantic, Antarctic or the Arctic, where ships go more these days, and there is a need for an evacuation even if the ship remains upright, and people are able to get into life rafts without panicking, what happens then? He did not answer the Question about whether there had been any full-scale trials of such a scenario. Will he urge the IMO to get on and do a trial such as this to see what happens? My fear is that there will be wholesale panic.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure I speak for everyone in your Lordships’ House when I say that we hope that such an occasion does not occur. Importantly, to get to the crux of what the noble Lord is asking, the UK has been not just working very closely with the IMO—the organisation that leads activities in this field—but showing leadership to improve the importance of safety. SOLAS chapter 3 in particular makes provision for passenger vessels to undertake drills on a weekly basis—and, following the “Costa Concordia” accident, passengers must undertake safety drills to familiarise themselves directly with evacuation procedures to address the sort of scenario the noble Lord illustrates.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
Does the Minister know whether consideration has been given to language issues? There will be people of all nationalities on these ships. Communications between the crew and passengers are vital. Do these form a part of any tests that take place?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
In light of representations that we ourselves have made, the noble Lord is right to raise the issue of languages, because many who travel may not be familiar with some languages. In that regard the IMO is looking to introduce specific measures to ensure that evacuation drills and emergency procedures reflect the languages of the people who are travelling.
Lord Greenway (CB)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that 19 ships capable of carrying more than 4,000 passengers are on order at the moment for delivery by 2020? The noble Lord on the Liberal Democrat Benches asked about crew. Is it not vital that crew training is given absolute priority in view of the problems that he mentioned with languages? In the “Costa Concordia” accident, I gather that the crew could not understand emergency instructions in the official language of the ship.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord raises an important point. I partly addressed it in my previous answer, but he is of course right. When we look across modes of travel, we see that in aviation, for example, all evacuation and emergency procedures on a flight heading for a particular destination in a particular country are explained in a particular language. I suggest that there is a bigger challenge for cruise ships, which often stop at different destinations—but language and crew training related to it are nevertheless important.
Lord Cormack (Con)
What is the attraction of taking a cruise with 4,999 of your closest friends?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Unlike the noble Lord, I cannot claim to have 4,999 close friends. There are many noble friends in your Lordships’ House, but, even if we went on a cruise together, I am not sure that we would quite reach that standard.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, can I clarify the Government’s position on this question? Bearing in mind the increasing number of British citizens who go on cruises, can the Minister—I do not think that he has done it so far—give an assurance that the Government are satisfied that the existing safety of life at sea regulations on evacuation in an emergency and the associated crew training and practice drill procedures reflect the reality of today of much larger cruise liners than before carrying many thousands of passengers and crew?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I can give that assurance. We are working on several streams; first, looking at adapting existing fleets in accordance with the challenges and the way in which the industry operates; secondly, looking at crew training; and, thirdly, ensuring that emergency and evacuation procedures reflect the language of those travelling on those ships. So, yes, we are satisfied, but one can never be overly prepared for such emergencies. When such incidents happen, the real test will be of the stability of the ship, the operation of the safety regulations and how well crew members are versed in them, and how well educated and informed are the travelling public. Work is going on to improve that. I suggest to the noble Lord that it should be an ever-evolving exercise, so we look to embrace the latest technologies and address the concerns which noble Lords are right to raise.
Lord Boyce (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a past chairman of the RNLI. The International Maritime Rescue Federation has been looking at the vexed subject of how one retrieves hundreds if not thousands of people from a ship which has been evacuated on to the sea. Has it made any sensible progress and is it still working well with the IMO?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble and gallant Lord is right to raise this issue. My understanding is that work has been done to ensure the survivability of ships for a longer time and that, if an evacuation is necessary, it can be conducted. In the case of the “Costa Concordia”, the ship was stable for up to an hour. Had the crew and captain been equipped in an appropriate manner, perhaps more lives could have been saved. Another area that we are looking at is the stability of ships, to allow them to return to port safely without the need for evacuation. The noble and gallant Lord asked how the two organisations were working together. I shall write to him on that.
Lord Geddes (Con)
My Lords, has consideration been given to a minimum thickness of hull for these vast cruise ships, particularly those going to Antarctica?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, given the technical nature of that question, I will write to my noble friend. I assure him that on all types of ships, including the roll-on, roll-off ferries widely used by the travelling public, the issue of safety is extremely important. It is important to consider the nature, building and construction of ships—but, as we have said, we must also inform the travelling public on safety procedures and ensure that the crew, too, is well informed.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, the training of officers and men is crucially important and British seamen are probably the best in the world. However, we have a huge shortage. In the Falklands, 73 merchant ships were called up, all using British crew. Have the Government ascertained the minimum number of merchant seamen this nation requires for crisis and emergency?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
On a maritime Question, I knew I was missing something—and now I know what that was. I will write to the noble Lord in that respect.
Great Western Main Line: Electrification
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the final cost and timetable for completing the electrification of the Great Western Main Line.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, in the recent National Audit Office report, the total estimated cost of the Great Western route modernisation programme was £5.58 billion. The timetable for the remaining elements is due to be part of the planning process for Control Period 6. The Government welcome the Public Accounts Committee’s recommendation to reassess the case for electrification by section and fund schemes only where worthwhile benefits for passengers could not be achieved otherwise at lower cost.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I hear the Minister clearly. I believe he is telling us in clear terms that the Government do not intend to complete the electrification of the Great Western Railway to Swansea. If that is the case, please will he confirm that this afternoon?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thought I was pretty clear, but obviously not clear enough for the noble Baroness. I said that some parts of the electrification have been deferred to Control Period 6, as she is aware. The Government will review the spending on that to ensure the electrification on all remaining parts that have been deferred is in the interests of customers. The Cardiff to Swansea route that the noble Baroness specifically mentioned will be subject to the next control period—CP6.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, the electrification of the east coast main line route was completed in 1990. We are expecting a massive investment by Virgin Trains East Coast by 2020. At the moment, the line frequently fails. Does the noble Lord have a timetable and an idea of the investment that is required, and when Network Rail might carry out the investment required to ensure that the investment that Virgin Trains is making will be worth it?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
We acknowledge the investment that rail companies are making in rail services across the board. As regards my noble friend’s specific question, she may well be aware that Sir Peter Hendy was appointed to Network Rail specifically to look at the rollout of the electrification programme, which prioritised certain key investments. The investments that are not made in CP5 will be part of the consideration for the next control period.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, coming back to GWR, the Minister will be aware that we in south-west Wales are very concerned about any decision, on infrastructure or otherwise, that might harm perceptions regarding the isolation of areas west of Cardiff. We were promised a fixed completion date to Swansea. Can he now undertake that he will try to expedite that and give a fixed completion date for rail electrification as far as Swansea?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of Swansea but I believe I have already addressed that. It will be considered as part of the CP6 expenditure. However, to put this into context, £2.8 billion is specifically allocated to the electrification of the Great Western line. We are talking about 170 bridges, 1,500 sets of foundations, 14,000 overhead lines, 1,500 pieces of signalling equipment and 17 tunnels. Notwithstanding that, the Government are making investments, as I am sure the noble Lord acknowledges. The rollout of new rolling stock, which will start to be applied to the line from the end of this year, will ensure better and more efficient customer service across the whole network.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, the Great Western railway electrification scheme was designed in the Department for Transport; it was specified there and the trains were ordered there. However, the new trains and the new system will not provide a faster or better service than was the case 40 years ago, when I was general manager at Paddington. In future, will the Government look very carefully at whether there are better design and procurement methods to ensure that we get a scheme that delivers benefits to passengers and saves the taxpayer money?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I do not agree with the noble Lord’s premise. I believe that the new rolling stock that I referred to will bring passenger benefits. As I am sure he knows from his experience in and vast knowledge of the area, the IEP fleet, which is coming into service on the whole route, will run in both diesel and electric modes. That will provide flexibility in the delivery and appropriate scheduling of the electrification programme, which I accept is challenging.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
My Lords, although any initiative that allows faster travel to Wales is to be welcomed, and we already have excellent road, rail and air links to south Wales, does the Minister agree that even greater commercial and cultural benefits might be gained by improving road and rail travel from north to south Wales?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with my noble friend. As I am sure she is aware, Wales will benefit to the tune of £2 billion from rail modernisation. For her information, together with the Welsh Government we have allocated a further £125 million to update the initiative around the Valley Lines.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this project started off at £800 million and has now gone up to over £2 billion, £3 billion or maybe £4 billion, and that the same team responsible for the pricing has been pricing phase 1 of HS2? As he will know—I put it to him at the Committee stage of the HS2 Bill—those costs will now be, in my estimation, £54 billion and not £24 billion. Is it not about time that we got a grip on costs?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
We had several meetings away from this Chamber about the costs of HS2. As the noble Lord is fully aware, the experts who are working on the modelling and pricing of HS2 are meeting notable experts whom he himself put forward, and it will be interesting to await the outcome of that meeting.
Earl Attlee (Con)
My Lords, do the difficulties with electrification not show the benefits of building a new line such as HS2?
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, while it is vital that the electrification goes as far as Swansea and indeed beyond, there is an equally pressing case for electrification of the north Wales line through to Holyhead? Does he accept that that is important not only in respect of the local benefits from Crewe to Holyhead but in respect of the main line link through to Ireland, which has increasing importance in the wake of Brexit? What will the Government do to expedite that electrification?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord raises a specific issue away from the line in the Question. It is important to recognise that the Government’s approach is that, where it will be of benefit to the customer and the consumer, electrification will be prioritised, and the Hendy review reflects that very objective.