European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I have had many opportunities to comment on Brexit in respect of Wales, the UK and the implications for our European partners, so today I wish to outline some concerns I have as a constituency MP that lead me to say that I will oppose the Prime Minister’s deal when I have the opportunity to vote on it.

Arfon is part of the West Wales and The Valleys region. We have a low GDP; it is on a par with that of Spain, Portugal and parts of former communist eastern Europe. As such, we receive EU cohesion funding and other European money, such as Interreg funding to promote links, for example, with Ireland. Agriculture is a significant part of the local economy and, again, it depends on some EU funding. The EU has had these regional and cohesion policies in place for many years, but there is much concern locally about the complete lack of detail as to the arrangements for the shared prosperity fund, which is going to replace the EU funding. That concern is sharpened further by an appreciation that time is very short. Bangor University and Ysbyty Gwynedd, the local district hospital, depend on having EU staff. Bangor University has also recruited many students of EU origin and has excellent EU research links. The university has received significant sums from EU sources.

Arfon also has a number of private sector employers who are headquartered in the EU27. Crucially for our own local economy, we have small exporting businesses, ranging from craft and music businesses to specialised exporters of live plants and a specialised steel forging company that produces equipment for the climbing world. It has already been considering what to do as a result of Brexit and is setting up a distribution centre, not in Llanberis in the heart of Snowdonia, but in the Netherlands—it is taking that step now.

EU employees at the university are worried about the potential future effects, both personally, and in respect of their work, careers and research interests. Terming them as “bargaining chips” and, outrageously, as “queue jumpers”, has only added to their worry and indeed their anger. Many EU staff came to the university because of particular aspects of their academic work in which Bangor excels. They worry that paths and possibilities will not be open to them in future.

We also have links with Ireland. Some time ago, I attended a scientific colloquium in Bangor and a member of staff from University College Cork said about Brexit: “The problem is, you see, Hywel, that the fish don’t know where the international boundary lines are. Bloody stupid fish.” Only, I do not think he was referring to fish at all.

Like other parts of the NHS, Ysbyty Gwynedd has difficulty recruiting staff, and EU staff work there, too.

Arfon is one of the most intensely Welsh speaking areas of Wales, with around 70% of adults speaking Welsh and 85% of young people speaking Welsh because of bilingual education. The Welsh language has received financial support from EU sources. Furthermore, it is intangible but important that the normality of EU multilingualism, at not only official but societal and cultural levels, is a significant source of confidence for the future of the Welsh language. Many of us feel Welsh and European as well, with nothing in the middle. Arfon is also a major centre of Welsh-language television production, with programmes produced not only by the BBC but, more significantly, by private sector producers that work closely with EU partners.

Those are just some of the real concerns about Arfon’s future outside the EU. Those concerns are reflected strongly in local political results. In the 2015 general election, every seat in Wales swung to the UK Independence party, save for Arfon, which swung strongly to Plaid Cymru. In the referendum on exiting the EU, and like most Welsh constituencies with similar socioeconomic characteristics, Arfon voted strongly in favour of remaining, by a margin of 60 to 40.

There is much else I could say, but I have restricted myself to a few examples of why, on the basis of purely constituency matters, I will certainly oppose the Government’s deal. Those constituency matters are strong enough in and of themselves for me to do that.

Leaving the EU: Economic Analysis

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mel Stride]

What matters now is that we support this deal, to support the economy. The analysis clearly shows that compared with the other options, particularly no deal, it is by far preferable, in terms of the economics and the impact on the economy, to support this deal.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Every assessment that the Government have published this morning shows Wales being worse off. I will not burden the Minister with yet another question about a people’s vote, but can he confirm from the Dispatch Box that in the entirely hypothetical case that we were to stay in the European Union, Wales would be not worse off but better off?

[Mel Stride]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman’s question is predicated on a train that has left the station, because we are leaving the European Union on 29 March—we are going to honour the will of the British people as expressed in June 2016—but I can reassure him that of the various scenarios that these papers review, this Government’s hard-won deal with the European Union is by far the best of all the alternatives for his constituents.

Leaving the EU: Customs Arrangements

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2018 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered customs arrangements after the UK leaves the EU.

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr Streeter. I am particularly grateful to have been selected to lead this debate. I led a debate on the European Free Trade Association and the European economic area in February, which I believe has brought that argument and some of the arguments around it to the fore. I see this debate as very much part of an evolving evaluation of the necessary arrangements that our country will need to put in place to secure free trade with the European Union and the rest of the world post March 2019.

This debate on customs arrangements follows and builds on what I was saying in February, because in my view, EEA-EFTA takes us some way towards achieving the aim of frictionless trade with the European Union post-Brexit, but without the satisfactory customs arrangements there will still be barriers to prevent our achieving that. That has been demonstrated to anyone who has spoken to the Norwegians and the Swedes, the Americans and the Canadians, and the Swiss. Anyone who suggests that those borders operate frictionlessly at the moment would be under a misapprehension.

I recognise, as I said to one or two colleagues as I wandered in, that today’s debate takes place in a vacuum. On Friday, the Government announced their ambition, which I welcome, for an EU-UK free trade area for goods, with a common rulebook and a labour mobility framework. The vacuum on the other side is that we are yet to see the much-awaited White Paper. I hope the Minister will confirm, despite all the rumours that have been swilling around this morning, that the White Paper will be published on Thursday.

I want to concentrate on those customs arrangements. Much of the debate about our post-Brexit customs arrangements has been about style over substance. Whether it is “the” or “a” customs union, max fac, new customs partnership or a facilitated customs arrangement, frankly, I do not care what it is called. As far as I am concerned, it can be called anything you like. The test must be whether the customs arrangements that we put in place protect jobs and businesses, avoid a hard border in Ireland, allow for frictionless trade and reflect the realities of the ports of our country. That is why I have always supported the Prime Minister’s customs plan as stated in the Lancaster House speech, in which, I remind colleagues, she said:

“Whether that means we must reach a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the Customs Union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, I hold no preconceived position. I have an open mind on how we do it. It is not the means that matter, but the ends.”

That is clearly true. It is not the means that matter, but the end.

The risks facing businesses, if we do not get this right, are clear. First, and overwhelmingly, in terms of customs, there is “rules of origin” risk and the requirements that places on trade. Those are most significant for exporters, if we do not come up with a satisfactory solution. The rules of origin requirements prove the country of origin for a product and they are essential for qualifying for lower tariffs. They are established to ensure that a finished good, and anything going into it from the supply chain, comes from the area that it is stated to have come from. Only then will it qualify to move across the border, and qualify for the tariff regime that is established for it. They are also needed to ensure that tariffs are not avoided by shipping goods through a country with a lower tariff, which could undermine the tariff regime.

When it comes to exporting food, proving origin can be quite simple: it is either grown in a country or it is not; but when it comes to the export of cars, for example, it is extraordinarily complex. The composition of each nut and bolt needs to be assessed, to ensure that enough of the car’s origin allows it to qualify for the lower tariffs. That affects not only the car industry, but pretty much any industry with a complex supply chain.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

That is even more the case with aircraft wings. The Airbus plants in north-east Wales have a central part in the Welsh economy. Components cross EU internal borders several times before finally being assembled. The danger is extreme to our local economy, as well as our participation in the wider project.

[Stephen Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman is completely right and he guesses my next point. I was about to say that rules of origin should not be underestimated or lightly dismissed with the usual line that these issues were not a problem before we joined the EU, or by the extraordinary assertion—heard last week—that manufacturers would somehow be able to get cheaper components from somewhere else in the world. To return to my fabled car, in the 1970s, before we joined the European Union—or the European Economic Community, as it was then—a car made in the west midlands had its supply chain solely from that area. Now, as the hon. Gentleman is rightly pointing out about aircraft wings—it is true for cars, too—that supply chain has sources all over Europe and will usually see multiple cross-border movements before it is completed.

The suggestion that cheaper components could be sourced from anywhere else in the world betrays a fundamental lack of knowledge of the integrated nature of manufacturing in the 21st-century world. The response to someone making those assertions can only be, “Get real!” Moreover, the significance of this burden is shown by the previous Government’s balance of competence review into the EU, which highlighted that the costs associated with rules of origin ranged from 4% to 15% of the value of trade. That is why the chief executive of the Chemical Industries Association told the House of Lords Committee that rules of origin add a “substantial level of bureaucracy” as

“the cost of providing the technical proof that a chemical or any other manufactured product originates from the EU or the UK, bearing in mind that”—

particularly for chemicals—

“there could be several stages of synthesis involved”,

would

“clearly outweigh the benefit of duty-free”

or tariff-free sales.

Currently, exporters need to fill out one form, at most, for VAT purposes. If we do not come to a satisfactory arrangement, exporters would need to fill out more paperwork. Furthermore, the UK could use access to the EU databases and the e-customs systems, which make this processing even easier.

[Stephen Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the example that she gives—the car industry. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has given us clear evidence on this, as well, in terms of the extra bureaucracy. It estimates that 180,000 exporters will now need to make a customs declaration for the first time, having not needed to do so previously. That is in addition to the 141,000 exporters that currently make a declaration for trade outside the EU. That extra bureaucracy is roughly in the small amount of £4 billion a year. Anyone who thinks that is a price worth paying, with the cost being put on industry, should think again.

Some have said that this is a price worth paying to pursue free trade agreements with new markets—markets that will bring us huge new rewards—but the supply chains that will be impacted by these new barriers cannot simply be removed from the EU market and integrated into a new market. They have taken decades to build up and are facilitated by free trade in the EU. By most conventional expectations, it would take further decades for EU exporters to embed themselves in new markets and new supply chains.

The extra requirements would also require physical infrastructure at borders to deal with customs processes. Currently, few checks are required on EU goods at ports, so ports have customs infrastructure in place to deal with non-EU imports only. Given that less than 1% of the lorries arriving through the port of Dover or the channel tunnel require customs checks, there is very little infrastructure, and there is no reason for there to be more.

That is also true on the other side. When representatives from the port of Calais came to speak to the Treasury Committee, they made the point that they have so far made no investment in infrastructure. Whether they will be able to deal with the new customs arrangements by the end of the implementation period without more infrastructure being put in place, or indeed without substantial delays at the port, is not only open to question, but evidence to the Select Committee proved it to be so.

The port of Dover estimates that even a two-minute delay in customs processing would lead to a 17-mile queue from Dover. Even short delays would have an impact on the just-in-time production lines that my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) mentioned, with costs compounding each time a component crosses from the EU to the UK or vice versa. As I said earlier, in the car process, that usually happens between three and four times.

[Hywel Williams]

A great deal of attention has been paid to Dover and Calais and the east-west, north-south routes, but much less has been paid to the Dublin-Holyhead route, although Holyhead is the second-busiest roll-on roll-off port in the United Kingdom. In the Exiting the European Union Committee, when I asked the now former Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), what consideration had been given to Holyhead, he said that none had been given. That was some time ago. I asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he had last visited Holyhead, and he said it was in April 2017. Does the hon. Gentleman share my despair that that route has not received the attention that it requires?

[Stephen Hammond]

Again the hon. Gentleman guesses what I was about to say next. I was using the ports of Dover and Calais as examples of ports across the United Kingdom. Of course, it would also require restrictions and a border infrastructure to be in place between the two ports he mentions.

Over the last few years, some people have called that project fear, but the reality is that we are facing risks to our economy and to people’s jobs. In the last two weeks, businesses such as Airbus and Jaguar Land Rover have been increasingly vocal about these events and the risks. A recent Institute of Directors poll found that business leaders want a post-Brexit customs arrangement that avoids the new customs processes and maximises EU market access by minimising regulatory divergence. Warnings from big employers and investors in the UK should not be ignored, and certainly not by a Government who are committed to protecting jobs and enhancing employment opportunities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman is clearly a learned man and I take his view that the great Shakespearean themes are perception and reality, and reality becomes perception and the other way round. But that is not true of course, and it is for those of us who are in this place to stand up and base our decisions on evidence, and to speak the truth. So it is absolutely clear to me that, as we need to protect jobs and businesses, and if we are ready to protect them as they are now, we do not need to sacrifice them for potential gains, if those gains look small and potentially unrealisable.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. On the point that he has just made, Michel Barnier gave evidence to the Brexit Committee last year and he said that there is a cultural difference here. He said, “Your side seems to think that this process is, ‘You give us a bit of that and we’ll give you bit of this’, whereas on the European Union’s side it is a matter of fitting our mutual desire for the most favourable terms into the rules that have been agreed by the UK Government over many years”, and until that difference in cultural perception changes we are not going to get very far.

[Stephen Hammond]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point; I hear him and I will look carefully at the Select Committee’s report on that point.

In concluding, I will make a few remarks to the Minister. I hope that he will be able to outline how the Government’s proposals will overcome the costly non-tariff barriers that I spent some time outlining and took a number of interventions about earlier. I also hope that he can reassure us about the steps the Government will take to ensure that the new customs arrangements will be fully ready and tested by the end of the implementation period. I would obviously like to be assured that the Government, and in particular the Department for Transport, have a plan to ensure that our ports and ports on the EU side will be ready for any changes.

Governments should always put the creation and protection of jobs and livelihoods first. While we are leaving the EU, we should not sacrifice people’s livelihoods. That is not what people voted for; whatever they voted for, they certainly did not vote for that. Therefore, it is important to listen to the voice of business.

As I have said, I drafted this speech on Friday and it has gone through one or two reiterations since, on the basis of what has happened, and it will probably go through another one when I see things on Thursday. Nevertheless, I welcome Friday’s agreement. Clearly, we should welcome the fact that it aims to remove the need for tariffs, customs checks and controls. It will be called a facilitated customs arrangement. I understand that the White Paper was going to be published on Thursday; perhaps the Minister might care to give us some detail on how a facilitated customs arrangement is intended to work.

I have taken a number of interventions because this is an extraordinarily important subject. It goes to the essence of what we need to put in place before we leave the European Union and why. Many of us would say that these issues should have been sorted a long time ago, but we are making a good start now. I hope that this debate will contribute to people’s understanding of some of the issues that this country’s businesses will face as we leave the European Union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I do not believe there will be food rotting at the ports. I am more of an optimist about the future. Forgive me for saying it, but I always see the glass as half full rather than half empty. I look positively for the way to achieve our goals. I read the same press report as the hon. Gentleman, but we need to focus on where we are.

The Prime Minister has set out her stall clearly. I am a confirmed Brexiteer—it is not a secret, and hon. Members will know it. I feel that we would be better out of the EU, and I want to be out of it. The Prime Minister has made it clear where we are going; but I feel we need an agreement with the EU, to move forward. I hope that the Prime Minister can achieve that and I support her in trying to do it; but I am a single voice in the Democratic Unionist party. There are 10 of us, with a collective voice, and the 10 of us together will support the policy we agree on. I suppose that at this moment we may not be altogether sure what the Prime Minister’s policy is; but I hang on to the assurance that she gave me yesterday about fishing. I want to hang on to her other assurances as well.

I understand that the divorce settlement is onerous and acrimonious, but there is a way forward and we must find it. How are we, in the Republic of Ireland and in Northern Ireland, to achieve it? Last year I spoke at Irishfest in Wisconsin. It was a very good event. The Culture Minister of the Republic of Ireland spoke about Brexit from the Republic’s perspective, and I spoke about it from the Northern Ireland perspective. When the debate was over there was not that much difference between what we were trying to achieve. It meant we both had a mind to find a way forward. I want the border as it is. Administratively there must be a way we can get that.

We must also be ever conscious and mindful of the security and safety of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. As is true anywhere, the Government have a responsibility for the safety of every citizen. How are they to go about that? It will be done in the same way as the Garda Síochána, the Police Service of Northern Ireland—and before that the Royal Ulster Constabulary—MI5, MI6, and all the other bodies involved have done that work over the years. That is quite easy. Vehicle number registration is something that perhaps we have not done much with. The agri-food sector is very important for my constituency and it can be considered as an example, administratively; milk products cross the border three times and that happens easily because we are in the EU. However, we will be out of the EU on 31 March, so we must look towards that time.

[Hywel Williams]

The Exiting the European Union Committee visited south Armagh at the end of last year and of course the border we saw then is the one that the hon. Gentleman wants. Everyone we spoke to in the north and the south wants it—that is, virtually no border. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is also desirable to have a similar border between Dublin and Holyhead?

[Jim Shannon]

I am sure that the Government will respond in relation to the arrangements that are already in place. I do not have the knowledge of Holyhead and what is going on there to comment; but I am fully aware of what happens in south Armagh and in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and I think I speak with some authority about that.

I want to be careful about the time, Mr Streeter; am I allowed some leniency as to extra time?

Leaving the EU: Higher Education in Wales

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2018 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the effect of leaving the EU on the higher education sector in Wales.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher.

Higher education is now devolved; Brexit, though, is not. As we have seen in the last few days, there are some people—just some in Wales—who are delighted to reverse the progress of devolution achieved with so much effort over the last 19 years of our Assembly’s life, delighted to relinquish power and responsibility, and happy to enfeeble our Assembly on the pretext of easing Brexit into the world. After the fine words of resistance, after the pledged solidarity with Scotland, they are glad to compromise on behalf of the Welsh nation without a fight. I am reminded of Idris Davies’ poems in The Angry Summer, particularly number 48, referring to the breaking of the triple alliance in 1921, “The Telephones are Ringing”. Perhaps some hon. Members were there at the time, or perhaps not. A few lines will suffice:

“The telephones are ringing

And treachery’s in the air.

The sleek one,

The expert at compromise

Is bowing in Whitehall.

And lackey to fox to parrot cries:

‘The nation must be saved.’

What is the nation, gentleman,

Who are the nation, my lords?”

When the smoke and the noise of Brexit have cleared, the actions of some people in Wales in yielding our powers to London will be seen clearly for what they are. Yes, the telephones are ringing and treachery is in the air.

This debate is doubly timely, being about Brexit and devolution, two of the major problems that have plagued the mainstream parties here for many years. This Government, with such great finesse, have brought down on their own feeble shoulders both problems simultaneously. Plaid Cymru has been consistent on devolution, of course, and on the EU as well. We were in favour of remaining and then in favour of continued membership of the customs union and the single market. I am gratified to see other parties now moving crab-like in our direction. That would be a real compromise, which would avoid many of the predicaments that now face us, particularly in respect of higher education.

This is the first debate specifically on Brexit and higher education in Wales. There is a danger that issues that are important in themselves, even vital to the future of our country, become obscured and forgotten in the morass of mind-numbing detail around Brexit.

In a debate in this Chamber sometime last autumn I asked the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), when he was merely a Wales Office Minister and had not been translated to greater things, what had happened to all the legislating we used to do on the economy, justice, benefits and pensions before we became obsessed with the fate of European Union regulations about the size and shape of fish fingers. His reply was that that was a good question. He said little else. Higher education is one of the vital issues to our country that may be overshadowed.

I have argued in this place that a thriving university sector, teaching, researching and applying that research, is central to the intellectual, moral and economic health of Wales. That has long been recognised. When we were last independent, a mere 600 years ago, the Pennal letter, sent by Owain Glyndŵr to the King of France in 1406, outlined, among other matters, his three key policies, one of which was to establish two universities, one in the north and one in the south. That was the time when great universities were being established throughout our continent, from Padua to Oxford and beyond. I sometimes wistfully imagine what our future would have been had that great ambition been fulfilled. As it was we were detained by other, less noble matters until the 19th century. Nevertheless, the long struggle to establish our universities with the support of working people throughout Wales—quarry families, colliers and others—shows clearly the value that we, as a Welsh society, place on education.

Enough of the history; let us turn to something that this Government really do understand—hard cash. Higher education contributed about £1.4 billion to the Welsh economy in 2017. Indirectly, it powered about a further £1.4 billion through related industries. In part, that was facilitated by the European Union through funding grants or loans to Welsh institutions and through the student mobility and research collaboration that freedom of movement enabled. In the rest of the UK, the private sector provides 45% of total research funding. In Wales, that drops to about 10%, which highlights the fragility of our economy and the greater importance of European money to Welsh institutions.

I will make some specific points about structural funds, research and collaboration, EU students and EU staff. First, we get money from structural and investment funds in Wales partly because of our poor economic performance over decades and to ensure social cohesion. Those moneys address the shortfall in innovation funding and in private investment in research and development in Wales.

Swansea University hugely expanded its Bay campus with £95 million of EU funding. The Cardiff University brain research imaging centre was opened using £4.5 million of EU funding. In my constituency, Bangor University secured £5 million of EU funding to help to create the centre for environmental biotechnology. All those projects were funded through Europe, and all are essential to the prosperity of our university sector. It is essential that that funding scheme, or an equivalent, continues undisturbed.

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Before he moves on, I add that the Aberystwyth innovation and enterprise campus has also benefited from the European regional development fund.

[Hywel Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a telling point, which could be repeated for the seven universities throughout Wales. To a greater or lesser extent, they all depend on European money. It is essential that that funding stream continues undisturbed, because research, and particularly scientific research, does not follow the fads and fashions of what today’s politicians see as all-important or what tomorrow’s politicians ignore as old hat.

After we leave the EU, decisions on the allocation of those moneys should be taken by the Welsh Government. Any replacement funds should ensure that money is directed on the basis of need, as well as being place-based and Wales-specific. It is essential that money does not go disproportionately to the south, or rather to the south-east and London. We know full well what happens when funding allocations are not protected: the loudest voices, which are closest to the centre, drown out the rest. A simple example comes from a Labour Minister in the Welsh Assembly, who said, when talking about rail infrastructure in Wales, that Wales has 5% of the population, 11% of the rail network and 1.5% of the network infrastructure investment. The voices from Wales are weak; those from the south-east are strong. That is why the money must be protected.

I am not convinced that the UK Government had those basic principles of meeting need or protecting funding in mind when they designed their legendary UK shared prosperity fund. Perhaps the Minister can shed some light on that.

[Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)]

I have asked 12 questions about the shared prosperity fund, what the Government have decided and how they will operate it, and I have not had a single answer yet. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be good to hear today from the Minister exactly how it will work?

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Lady makes the point that I was going to make next. In fact, when I asked a similar question in the Select Committee on Exiting the European Union, the answer persuaded me that I might have been better off researching unicorns.

Last week, in that Committee, I questioned Dr Main of the Campaign for Science and Engineering and Professor Brook of the Association for Innovation, Research and Technology Organisations—people who should know their business—about the shared prosperity fund. They both confirmed that they had not heard much about it since it was announced, so it is a fund in name only. We do know that it is under the remit of the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, which I think is significant, because that Ministry is England-only, which speaks for itself.

On research and collaboration in Wales, there has been historical under-investment in research infrastructure compared with the rest of the UK, and a lower level of science, technology, engineering and maths activity. A recent Royal Society report said that Wales has the lowest percentage of research infrastructure in Great Britain. It has benefited greatly from EU funding, however. In 2016-17, Welsh higher education institutions received about 19% of their research income from EU sources, compared with about 15% for other UK higher education institutions. We depend more heavily on them. In particular, Welsh higher education institutions received money from such programmes as Erasmus and Horizon 2020. In 2014-15, the total EU research grants and contracts income for Wales was approximately £46 million, which represented about 21% of the total research grants and contracts income in Wales for that year. Again, universities and the higher education sector in general in Wales have a greater dependence on those sources.

Horizon 2020 has a budget of about €70 billion for the period between 2014 and 2020. The Welsh higher education sector has been successful in winning funds from that highly competitive programme. Universities have accounted for nearly two thirds of the Welsh participation in Horizon 2020 so far. When the money is there we compete successfully, and universities do disproportionately better.

Interestingly, on Monday, the Prime Minister said that she wants us to be part of any future such schemes—the successor schemes of Erasmus and Horizon 2020. More surprisingly, she said that she was willing for us to pay, but that we should have a “suitable level of influence”. That exemplifies the unreal nature of the Government’s thinking. Those are EU programmes. We are leaving the EU. We will become a third country. In respect of Horizon 2020 and Erasmus, Times Higher Education has said that associate countries are not in the European Council or the European Parliament, and they have no say in the research budgets. The fantasy is that we will somehow leave, but stay in—that we will benefit and be able to fix the rules—but we will be a third country. At some point, the Government will collide with reality, and the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Now and again I get angry emails from frustrated Brexiteers, usually late at night, which say, “We’re leaving. Get on with it.” I only wish that the Government here would get on with it. Uncertainty is the most obvious feature of Brexit, for higher education as for everyone else, and that goes for people who are in favour of leaving and those who are in favour of remaining.

An alternative might be that the Welsh Government take charge, if they can be shaken awake on the matter. After all, Quebec, which is a province of Canada on the other side of the Atlantic, takes part in Erasmus+, so why not Wales? Needless to say, the Scottish Government are way ahead of us already, and are using their offices in Brussels, Berlin, Paris and Dublin to lead the charge. I am not sure whether we have an office anywhere apart from Cardiff these days.

Another strong pillar of our HE sector are the thousands of EU students who study in Wales and bring academic, economic and cultural benefits to our universities and our communities. That is particularly obvious in Bangor, where the population almost doubles and a large proportion of the students are from EU countries and other foreign countries. They bring enormous benefits. The latest figures for 2016-17 show that more than 6,000 EU national students were at HE providers in Wales, but applications are down. Perhaps the Minister can confirm the Institute of Welsh Affairs’ figure that there has been a drop of 8% this year.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that we are already seeing a financial impact of Brexit on our universities, in the reduction of the number of EU students? The excellent University of South Wales in my constituency had to propose laying off fully 5% of its staff last year, explicitly citing Brexit and the reduction in the number of EU students as the reason.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very telling point—the effects are with us already, even though we are still in.

There are also effects that are not so apparent in facts and figures, which are to do with the morale of lecturers and students from abroad and perhaps even their commitment to their work, in the face of offers that they might get from universities outside Wales and outside the UK. That effect is beginning to make itself apparent. In fact, it is one of the early signs of the impending Brexit vote hangover.

The Welsh Labour Government should give EU students who are starting courses in Wales now or in the near future some guarantees—for example on fees, loans and grants—to reassure them that Wales welcomes them to study and to contribute. The Welsh Labour Government should do that, but whether they will is yet another Welsh Labour mystery.

I come to the last pillar for today’s debate—staff from the EU who have chosen to research and teach in Wales. We have universities and individual departments of outstanding quality. That is no accident. We have built on our strengths, and EU staff and staff from other countries have been attracted here because of those strengths. The latest information I have shows that there are 1,355 staff from the EU at Welsh universities. They need to be reassured that they have a future with us, working at the forefront of their fields and building Wales’s future.

I have some brief questions for the Minister. What representations have the Welsh Government made regarding the design and implementation of the UK shared prosperity fund? I think we would all be glad to hear something about that. What representations have the Welsh Government made regarding Wales’s future participation in Horizon 2020 and Erasmus+? What discussions have Welsh Office Ministers had with the Home Secretary about immigration arrangements for EU students who might want to study in Wales? What assurances can the Minister give me that universities in Wales will still be able to attract and retain talented academics from the EU? Lastly and perhaps most importantly, will he give a guarantee that Wales will receive “not a penny less” after we leave the EU? He will recognise those words, as they were a promise by the Leave campaign.

We have great strength in our universities. We would be foolish in the extreme to allow a political vote, or a petty, clueless, split and confused Government here in London and a somewhat indifferent, somnolent one in Wales, to drag them down.

Customs and Borders

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

I have huge respect for the hon. Lady’s views on this, and I agree. We have to show some responsibility. This is not something on which we can simply trade political slogans or vote for an abstract. We have to be very honest and real about the consequences. The removal of the security and economic checks at that border and the growing economic integration between Northern Ireland and the Republic, as well as with the rest of the United Kingdom, are an important part of ending a conflict in which so many people have died. We have a huge responsibility to future generations who will not forgive us if we just rip all that up and throw it away because we did not face the facts.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Yvette Cooper]

May I make some progress first?

Three specific objections to a customs union tend to be presented. First, people say that we do not need a customs union because there are alternatives, usually based on new technology. Secondly, they argue that we will be better off outside the customs union, and that being outside is a price worth paying for the benefits that we will enjoy as a result. Thirdly, they make an emotional appeal, claiming that it is somehow at the heart of our sovereignty or the Brexit vote. I disagree with all three counter-arguments, and I will deal with each of them briefly.

Let me deal first with the claim that a customs union is not needed and we can solve everything with new technology instead. So far the Government have put forward two alternatives: a customs partnership and “max fac”, which seems to be the latest name for a streamlined arrangement described as “maximum facilitation”. The customs partnership—to be honest, I had to struggle to get my head around it—seems to involve our collecting EU tariffs at the border, tracking products, and then paying some of the money to the EU. I understand that both the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and Brussels have agreed that it is unworkable. It is quite a triumph for the Government to have come up with a proposal whose unworkability has managed to unite Brussels and the Brexit Secretary and those whom he defends.

The alternative is speeded-up customs arrangements at the border. The idea is that all the customs forms would be filled in online, customs checks would be carried out at the trader’s own premises rather than at the border, and there would be cameras and automated number plate recognition. An extreme version of that was proposed by the Financial Secretary, who compared it with the congestion charge between the Islington and Camden borders.

Let me be clear: I think we could do a great deal more with new technology at our borders. In the interests of trade, we should be improving the technology, and the use of technology, at our borders and at borders throughout Europe and the world. However, there is still a limit to how far we can go. First, it will take a long time and a lot of investment to roll out many elements of the technology. Secondly, in the case of the congestion charge, the cameras identify only the cars, not what was in them, so cameras do not solve all the problems involving checks. Thirdly, we would have to rely on the willingness of France, Belgium, Ireland and other countries to provide the same level of investment in the technology at the same pace.

The proposal also assumes a higher level of tolerance of smuggling and evasion of tariffs. The Prime Minister, for example, has suggested that in Northern Ireland 80% of trade—the micro, small and medium-sized businesses—could be exempt from all checks. That level of exemption would require agreement with other countries. There is also the question of how enforcement would take place to ensure that there was no systematic evasion of tariffs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Yvette Cooper]

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the concern relates to what happens around the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, and the introduction of new infrastructure at that border, especially such symbolic infrastructure, and especially anything that would increase the sense of there being targets for dissident organisations. We do not want them to become more active and have more to focus on.

[Hywel Williams]

When the Exiting the European Union Committee visited South Armagh a couple of months ago, everyone we met, from Sinn Féin councillors to the deputy chief constable, agreed that there should be no infrastructure on the border, for the very reason that the right hon. Lady outlined.

[Yvette Cooper]

It is significant that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee concluded last month that there were no technical solutions anywhere in the world “beyond the aspirational” that would remove the need for physical infrastructure at the border.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kate Hoey]

Of course Sinn Féin would love a border poll, but as the hon. Lady knows, there are regulations about when a border poll can be held, and there has to be a certain ratio of contentment before that can happen. It is almost as if we are being blackmailed by Sinn Féin and those who have been responsible for violence in the past. It is as if we have to shape our whole economic policy and future according to whether some dissidents will start to do dreadful things again. That is not how we should tackle it. We should take those people on and put them in jail, and we should make sure that decent, ordinary people can go about their lives without being attacked and threatened by the idea that if we do not do Brexit in a particular way, terrorism will start again.

[Hywel Williams]

At the recent meeting of the Brexit Committee in Northern Ireland, the Deputy Chief Constable said that he was absolutely against a physical border post. Was he blackmailing us?

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Two great problems have plagued Governments in this place for over 200 years —the Irish question and the European question. It takes a Government of some genius to bring those two questions down on their head simultaneously. I have been waiting a long time to say that.

I welcome this opportunity to confirm that my party’s policy is, and always has been, to stay in the customs union. We are a pro-European party—not blindly so, because we have long-standing criticisms of the European Union, but we have always been in favour of co-operating with people who share our views and our values. But that is all for a wider debate. Today I want to concentrate my remarks on the relationship with Ireland.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hywel Williams]

I will give way once.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am very grateful. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that generations to come may well look back at this moment and find it utterly incomprehensible that we could even have been considering sacrificing the Good Friday agreement on the altar of this ideologically driven Brexit? Five former Northern Ireland Secretaries have said a hard border threatens the very existence of the Good Friday agreement. Does he agree that that would be unforgivably reckless and careless?

[Hywel Williams]

As I said in an intervention, I have recently been to South Armagh with the Select Committee. I could scarcely spot the difference between the north and the south. The only difference was that the tarmac was slightly different, with the better tarmac being on the southern side. That is a light remark, but it does make the point that the Good Friday agreement has brought peace almost entirely to the island of Ireland. We gamble with that at our peril, and we will not be forgiven if it is lost. That is certainly the point made by my Irish friends. I should declare an interest: if I want to visit an easy-going and entertaining European capital, Dublin is a good deal closer to me than Cardiff or London, for that matter. My Irish friends tell me how much they value that link, and that is what I want to talk about.

I have been cautioned by Democratic Unionist party colleagues not to embroil myself in their domestic matters, but this is particularly relevant to north Wales and my Arfon constituency. There is an east-west element to the question of the border, as well as the north-south element between Northern Ireland and the Republic, as the Brexit Secretary acknowledged yesterday when he appeared before the Exiting the European Union Committee. The north-south element gets the attention, but the trade between the UK and Ireland, and specifically for me the relationship between Wales and Ireland, is hugely important and larger.

The east-west trade between Irish and Welsh ports is much more significant than the north-south trade, though it does not have the same political significance, because of the historical and tragic troubles they have had in the north of Ireland. The Secretary of State noted that the east-west trade is not only between the Republic and the UK, as there is also significant trade between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom via the Republic. It is a complex relationship.

We have heard a great deal about the potential problems in Dover, should there be border checks, of potential tailbacks all the way to London, with perishable goods spoiling and costs to business. The same could be said for Holyhead, though possibly at a slightly less intense level. I know that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) has pushed that matter very hard indeed and is always ready to make the point. I am glad to support him this afternoon. The same point could also be made about the link with Fishguard in south-west Wales.

The lack of attention to the Wales-Ireland link is significant for not only our local economies in the north-west but the Welsh economy in general. The problems are quite obvious. In Holyhead, there is absolutely no room at the port for the expansion required to deal with any sort of customs checks. That is a practical problem. The A55, which crosses north Wales, is not a good road in many ways. It has no hard shoulder and no crash barriers in many places. It is a designated Euroroute between Dublin and Moscow, and on to the Urals. There are only two roundabouts on that route between Dublin and Moscow, both of which are in north Wales: one in Llanfairfechan and one in Penmaenmawr. Indeed, we also have two very bad bridges over the Menai strait. Those sorts of practical problems really worry me when time is so short.

The Government and the European Union have provided us with A, B and C options, with A being a comprehensive deal, B being a particular deal for Northern Ireland and C being the rejected backstop of Northern Ireland staying within the customs union. The UK rejects the C option, and the A option of a comprehensive deal is very much favoured. The Secretary of State said yesterday that he reckoned there was a 90% chance of achieving a comprehensive deal—option A—with the European Union, but that leaves us with a 10% chance of option B. I worry that if we have a particular fix for the Northern Ireland problem, we will then need a particular fix for customs between the north and the south. As one former Taoiseach said, that might entail turning a blind eye.

I cannot see how we can have two competing customs regimes between two countries or two economic blocs. I asked the Secretary of State yesterday if he could name a pair of countries that have competing customs arrangements between them. He did not answer, and neither could Pascal Lamy when he was before us some time ago. For all those reasons, I think the customs union is the option to choose.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Diolch, Mr Hanson, am roi’r cyfle i mi gyfrannu i’r ddadl hanesyddol hon drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dyma’r tro cyntaf i ni ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg yma yn San Steffan—nid yw hyn wedi digwydd o’r blaen—a dyna pam mae’n ddadl hanesyddol.

Yn siarad yn bersonnol, mae’n arwyddocaol fy mod i’n gallu cyfrannu yn Gymraeg. Pan ges i fy ethol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ym Mae Caerdydd yn 1999, doeddwn i ddim yn gallu siarad gair o Gymraeg. Ers hynny, rydw i wedi gwnuud fy ngorau i ddysgu’r iaith—iaith y nefoedd. Roedd bob un o’m hynafiaid yn siarad Cymraeg fel iaith gyntaf. Roedd fy rhieni yn siarad Cymraeg fel iaith gyntaf, ond wedi iddynt briodi symudasant i ran o Sir Drefaldwyn lle doedd neb yn siarad Cymraeg. Yn fwy arwyddocaol, roedd pobl yn gweld yr iaith fel iaith o fethiant—doedd neb ar y pryd eisiau siarad Cymraeg. Mae pethau wedi newid heddiw, ond mae lot o pobl wedi anghofio beth oedd y sefyllfa amser maith yn ôl.

Ni chlywais fy nhad na’m mam yn siarad Cymraeg o gwbl, felly ni allai fy mhump chwaer na fi siarad gair o Gymraeg. Nid oeddwn i’n medru gwneud tan i mi ddod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad. Ar ôl cael fy ethol i’r Cynulliad, lle mae llawer o Gymraeg yn cael ei siarad, gan gynnwys yn y Siambr, penderfynais fy mod i am ddysgu’r iaith. Gallwch weld felly, Mr Hanson, pam mae’r ddadl hanesyddol hon mor bwysig i fi yn bersonnol, yn ogystal â bod yn hanesoddol o ran San Steffan.

Mae’r ddadl Uwch Bwyllgor Cymreig yma yn rhoi’r cyfle i ni ystyried y Gyllideb a beth mae’n olygu i Gymru. Yn fy mharn i—rwy’n gwybod na fydd pawb yn cytuno â hyn—mae wedi bod yn newyddion da iawn i Gymru. Cynuddodd y Gyllideb yr arian ar gael i Lywodraeth Cymru wario ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Cynuddodd y grym gwario gan £1.2 biliwn bob blwyddyn, sy’n arwyddocaol iawn. Roedd grym gwario wedi codi £1.2 biliwn bob blwyddyn, ac mae hynny’n arwyddocaol. Pan oeddwn yn Aelod yn y Cynulliad, roedd llawer o drafod am y fformiwla Barnett a’r Barnett floor hefyd. Galw am fwy o arian i Gymru, mwy o rym gwario.

Ar y pryd, roedd pobl yn gweld yr Athro Gerry Holtham fel arbenigwr a bob tro roeddem yn siarad am y Gyllideb yn y Cynulliad, roedd people yn dyfynnu’r Athro Holtham. Nawr, ar ôl cytuno fframwaith cyllid gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, mae’r Athro Holtham wedi disgrifio’r sefyllfa fel a very fair settlement. Mae pethau wedi symud ymlaen lot. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd wedi croesawu’r fframwaith cyllid. Maen nhw’n dweud nawr am long-term fair funding i Gymru. Mae hwn wedi digwydd o dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol. Rwyf yn falch iawn i glywed pethau fel hyn.

Pwynt arall sydd yn bwysig i mi: yn y Gyllideb roedd y Canghellor yn sôn am gryfhau’r economi ymhob rhan o Gymru. Siaradodd am y Cardiff city deal, y Swansea city deal, am y north Wales growth deal, ac hefyd, am y tro cyntaf, siaradodd am mid Wales growth deal. Mae hyn yn bwysig dros ben; yn hynod o bwysig i mi. Mae’n rhy gynnar i wybod yn union beth mae mid Wales growth deal yn golygu. Mae’n bwysig iawn bod pobl leol yn y canolbarth yn rhoi syniadau. Dyma pam rwyf yn siarad gyda phobl yn sir Faldwyn a thu allan i sir Faldwyn hefyd, yn y canolbarth, a phob corff yn y lle, i gynnig syniadau.

Rwyf wedi bod yn siarad gyda’r Aelod dros Geredigion. Gobeithio byddwn yn gallu cymryd mantais o ymchwil amaethyddol ac amgylcheddol ym Mhrifysgol Aberystwyth a hefyd, gweithio gyda smallholdings ym Mhowys.

(Translation). Thank you, Mr Hanson, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this historic debate through the medium of Welsh. It is the first time we have been able to use the Welsh language in Westminster. It has not happened before, which is why the debate is historic.

Personally speaking, it is significant for me, too, to be able to make my contribution in Welsh. When I was elected to the National Assembly for Wales in Cardiff bay in 1999, I could not speak a word of Welsh. However, since then, I have done my very best to learn the language—the language of heaven. All of my ancestors were first-language Welsh speakers. My parents also spoke Welsh as a first language, but after getting married they moved to a part of Montgomeryshire where nobody spoke Welsh. More significantly, the Welsh language was seen as a failed language; nobody wanted to speak the Welsh language. Things have changed now, but many people have forgotten the situation of many years ago.

I did not hear my father or mother speak Welsh at all, so my five sisters and I could not speak a word of Welsh. I could not do so until I became an Assembly Member. Having been elected to the Assembly, where a great deal of Welsh is spoken, including in the Chamber, I decided that I needed to learn the Welsh language. So, as you can see, Mr Hanson, this historic debate is particularly important to me on a personal level, as well as being historic in terms of events in Westminster.

This Welsh Grand Committee debate gives us an opportunity to consider the Budget and its implications for Wales. In my view—I know that not everyone will agree—it has been very good news for Wales. The Budget increased the funding available to the Welsh Government to spend on public services in Wales. The spending power increased by £12 billion, which is significant. When I was an Assembly Member there was a great deal of debate about the Barnett formula and the Barnett floor, too. There were demands for more funding and more spending powers for Wales.

At the time, Professor Gerry Holtham was seen as an expert on all of these issues, and every time we discussed the Budget in the National Assembly people would quote Professor Holtham. Now, having agreed a financial framework with the Welsh Government, Professor Holtham has described the situation as a very fair settlement, so things have moved on a great deal, and the Welsh Government have also welcomed the financial framework. They see it as long-term fair funding for Wales, and that has happened under a Conservative Government. I am particularly pleased to hear such comments.

The other point that is important to me is that in the Budget the Chancellor spoke about strengthening the economy in all parts of Wales. He spoke about the Cardiff city deal and the city deal in Swansea. He also talked about the north Wales growth deal and, for the first time, he mentioned a mid-Wales growth deal, which is hugely important for me. It is too early to know exactly what a mid-Wales growth deal will mean, but it is important that local people in mid-Wales bring their ideas forward. When I speak to people in my constituency and outside my constituency in mid-Wales, I will encourage everyone and all the organisations involved to bring forward their ideas, and hopefully we will be able to take advantage.

I have spoken to the hon. Member for Ceredigion. I hope we will be able to take full advantage of the environmental and agricultural research undertaken at Aberystwyth University and also work with the smallholdings in Powys.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Mae yna lawer iawn o bobl yn y gogledd eisiau cymryd rhan yn y ddêl ar gyfer twf. Roeddwn mewn cyfarfod diweddar gyda’r brifysgol ym Mangor. Mae ganddynt syniadau da iawn ond fawr o syniad sut i ymgeisio. Mae’r manylion ar sut ddylai’r cynllun yma weithio yn brin iawn. Onid yw hynny’n neges i’r Llywodraeth y dylsant ddarparu’r wybodaeth yma rwan am fod syniadau da allan yno yn barod i fynd?

(Translation) A great many people in north Wales also want to take part in the growth deal. However, having had a recent meeting with Bangor University, where there are very good ideas, I know that it does not really know how to apply the details, which are scarce, of how the deal will work. That is a message for the Government that they should provide that information now, because there are good ideas out there ready to go.

[Glyn Davies]

Fel ddywedais i, yn y canolbarth, mae’n amser cynnar iawn. Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom ni i gynnig syniadau. Rwyf yn credu bydd Ysgrifennydd Cymru yn barod i dderbyn syniadau. Mae’n gyfle i gryfhau’r economi yng ngogledd Cymru ac yn y canolbarth. Mae’n bwysig hefyd i gryfhau’r cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth rhwng y canolbarth a chanolbarth Lloegr. Mae’n bwysig cysylltu gyda’r farchnad yng nghanolbarth Lloegr. Mae’r Newtown bypass yn agor eleni; mae hyn yn bwysig. Mae pont newydd yn symud ymlaen ym Machynlleth, dros y Dyfi.

Y cam nesaf yw cael ffordd newydd rhwng Trallwng a ffin Lloegr yn sir Amwythig. Mae’n bwysig cael cysylltiad rhwng y canolbarth a Lloegr. Mae’r farchnad yn bwysig i ni ac rwyf eisiau gweld y growth deal yn y canolbarth yn canolbwyntio ar hynny. Hefyd, wythnos nesaf, mae £7 miliwn yn mynd i fewn i’r rheilffordd rhwng y Drenewydd ac Aberystwyth. Mae lot yn digwydd. Mae cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth yn bwysig iawn os ydym am weld y canolbarth yn symud ymlaen.

Mae prosiect Pumlumon yn bwysig hefyd. Dydy pobl ddim yn gwybod lot am y prosiect, ond y cynllun yw i dalu ffermwyr â dros 100,000 erw—rhaid i mi edrych i weld os ydw i’n dweud yr un peth yn Gymraeg—i stopio llifogydd yn Lloegr. Mae hyn yn bwysig iawn a bydd yn dda i ffermwyr yn y canolbarth. Bydd yn help mawr i arbed gwario miliynau i stopio llifogydd yn Lloegr. Mae growth deal yn y canolbarth yn beth da ar gyfer hyn. Mae camlas Mynwy yn bwysig, yn mynd dros y ffin, a gobeithio gall y buddsoddiad ynddo fod yn rhan o’r mid-Wales growth deal hefyd.

Rwyf wedi bod yn Aelod yn y Cynulliad ac yn Aelod yma yn San Steffan, ac rwy’n deall bod angen i’r ddwy Lywodraeth weithio gyda’i gilydd i gael yr elw mwyaf. Mae hyn yn digwydd a dyma pam rwy’n optimistig ac yn credu bydd hyn yn parhau trwy berthynas bositif. Dwi ddim yn darllen beth sydd yn y cyfryngau. Mae’r ddwy Lywodraeth yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd ac mae hyn yn bwysig.

I orffen, rwyf eisiau mynd yn ôl at yr iaith Gymraeg a sut mae gwleidyddiaeth a materion cyhoeddus yn cael eu darlledu yng Nghymru. Dylai beth sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru—yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—gael mwy o sylw yn y cyfryngau yng Nghymru. Rydym ni i gyd yma yn dibynnu ar ddarlledu yng Nghymru i gysylltu â phobl Cymru i ddweud wrthyn nhw beth rydym ni’n gwneud yma. Rwy’n dibynnu ar y BBC, S4C a ITV i wneud hyn.

Roedd yn grêt gweld Radio Cymru 2 yn dechrau mis diwethaf. Mae’n bwysig iawn i Gymru a dwi’n llongyfarch Betsan Powys ar ei gwaith. Heddiw, rwyf eisiau dweud fy mod yn siomedig ar ôl clywed bod “O’r Senedd” yn gorffen—mae pawb yn adnabod y rhaglen—a dydw i ddim yn gwybod beth sydd yn dod yn ei lle. Dydw i ddim yn meddwl mai rhaglen sy’n delio â gwleidyddiaeth sy’n dod yn ei lle. Rwyf hefyd yn cofio “CF99”. Os rydym am gysylltu â phobl Cymru, mae rhaglenni fel “O’r Senedd” yn bwysig iawn i ni. Dydw i ddim eisiau gweld yn lle “O’r Senedd” rhyw fath o adloniant; rwyf eisiau gweld y cyfryngau yng Nghymru yn delio â gwleidyddiaeth yma yn San Steffan mewn ffordd ddifrifol. Yr unig ffordd rydym ni yn gallu cysylltu gyda’r bobl yng Nghymru yw trwy’r cyfryngau. Gobeithio, yn lle “O’r Senedd”, bydd rhyw fath o raglen sy’n delio â’r pynciau pwysig i Gymru mewn ffordd ddifrifol.

(Translation) As I said, in mid-Wales it is at a very early stage. There is a responsibility on all of us to bring forward ideas. I think the Secretary of State for Wales is willing to take on board these ideas, and that is where we are at the moment. I see an opportunity to strengthen the economy of north and mid-Wales. I also believe it is important to strengthen the transport links between mid-Wales and the midlands. It is hugely important that we can link up with the markets in the midlands. The Newtown bypass will open this year. That is important, and the new bridge over the Dyfi in Machynlleth is making progress.

The next step is to have a new road between Welshpool and the border with England in Shrewsbury. It is important to have those connections with England. The market is hugely important to us, and I want to see the growth deal in mid Wales focusing on that issue. Also, next week, £7 million will be invested in the railway between Newtown and Aberystwyth.

Also, next week, £7 million will be invested in the railway between Newtown and Aberystwyth. There is a great deal happening. Transport links are hugely important if mid-Wales is to make progress.

The Pumlumon project is also important. I do not know too much about it yet, but as I understand it the plan is to pay farmers—those with 100,000 acres, I think, but I will have to check that figure—to stop run-off from their land. That is hugely important. It will be positive for farmers in mid-Wales, and it will be of huge assistance in saving millions of pounds on flood prevention work in England. The mid-Wales growth deal is very positive. The Montgomery canal is also important, and I hope that investment in that is part of the mid-Wales growth deal, too.

Having been a Member of the Assembly and a Member here in Westminster, I have come to understand that the two Governments must work together if we are to achieve maximum benefit. I think that is happening, so I am optimistic. I think a positive relationship can develop between the Governments. I do not read about what is happening in the media. The Governments are working together, and that is hugely important.

To conclude, I want to move back to the issue of the Welsh language and how politics and public affairs are covered in Wales. What happens in Wales—and in the National Assembly—should get more coverage in the media in Wales. We are all reliant on broadcasters in Wales to connect with the people of Wales and inform them about what is happening here. That is hugely important. I think of the role of the BBC, S4C and ITV in delivering those messages.

It was wonderful to see Radio Cymru 2, a second Welsh-language radio channel, established last month. That is hugely important for Wales, and I congratulate Betsan Powys for the work that she has done. However, I was a little disappointed to hear that the S4C programme “O’r Senedd” is to cease broadcasting. I am not sure what is going to replace it, but I do not think that it will be a programme dealing with politics. I remember when “CF99” was on S4C. If we are to connect with the people of Wales, programmes such as “O’r Senedd” are hugely important. I raise that point because I do not want to see some sort of entertainment provided in place of “O’r Senedd”. I want to see the media in Wales cover politics here in Westminster and at the Assembly seriously. The only way that we can connect to the people of Wales is through the media. I hope that “O’r Senedd” will be replaced by some sort of programme that covers the important issues of the day for Wales.

[Hywel Williams]

Rwy’n falch eithriadol o’r cyfle yma i siarad yn y ddadl hanesyddol hon. Fel pawb arall, rwy’n falch iawn o’r diwedd i gael siarad Cymraeg yn y Tŷ hwn yn Llundain. Cefais y cyfle i siarad Cymraeg o’r blaen, pan aeth yr Uwch Bwyllgor i Wrecsam dro yn ôl, ond mae siarad yr iaith yn San Steffan yn gam arwyddocaol pellach, wrth i’r awdurdodau yma yn Llundain ddygymod o’r diwedd â’r ffaith mai nid gwladwriaeth uniaith ydy’r Deyrnas Gyfunol.

Yn wir, yn gynyddol daw unieithrwydd cyhoeddus yn eithriad yng Nghymru, dwi’n credu. Heblaw am y dadleuon amlwg i mi fel unigolyn fod medru siarad Cymraeg, a hawl fy etholwyr i gael eu cynrychioli drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae elfen gref iawn o synnwyr cyffredin o blaid symud at sefyllfa lle mae cyfrwng ein trafodaethau ni yma yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod natur ieithyddol ein gwlad ni yn wahanol. Dylem adlewyrchu sut mae pethau yng Nghymru, ac mae medru siarad Cymraeg yn rhan o hynny.

Fy mwriad prynhawn yma ydy siarad yn fyr am gynigion y Canghellor ynghylch credyd cynhwyshol, ac yn wir—bydd Aelodau Llywodraeth yn falch iawn i glywed hyn—i groesawu’r newidadau hynny, cyn belled ag y maent yn mynd. Tydi nhw ddim yn mynd hanner digon pell i mi a, fel llawer o bobl sy’n cymryd diddordeb yn y maes yma, buaswn yn licio gweld y newidiadau yn mynd yn bellach. Tydi’r newidiadau ddim yn mynd hanner digon pell i bobl a fydd yn hawlio’r fudd-dal yn y dyfodol, wrth i gredyd cynhwysol ddod i fewn. A tydi nhw ddim yn mynd hanner pell i mi fel rhywun sydd yn cynrychioli pobl ac yn pwyso ar yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau am welliannau a newidiau.

Mae’r pryderon am y drefn newydd eisioes yn ddigon clir. Ar 9 Hydref y llynedd, yn nghwestiynnau’r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau, gofynnais i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, a oedd newydd gael ei benodi ar y pryd, pa gynnydd a wnaed wrth ddod â chredyd cynhwysol i fewn a lle oeddem ni arni hi. Bydd rhai Aelodau yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, bod peilot wedi cael ei redeg ers tro yn ardal Shotton a bod hynny’n cynrychioli tua 5% o’r boblogaeth sydd ar hyn o bryd yn medru hawlio credyd cynhwysol. Ateb yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol oedd bod y fudd-dal newydd yn dod i fwcwl yn unol â’r cynllun, ac rŷm ni’n gweld y cynllun hwnnw yn dod i fewn rwan.

Dywedais wedyn fod cryn gefnogaeth i egwyddorion credyd cynhwysol. Rwy’n credu bod yna gytundeb ar draws y Tŷ bod yr egwyddorion—sicrhau incwm a sicrhau bod pobl yn medru mynd i’r gwaith yn haws o lawer—yn dda iawn, ond yn ôl neb llai na Syr John Major, nodweddion dwyn credyd cynhwysol i fewn hyd yn hyn yw

“gweithredu bler, anhegwch cymdeithasol a diffug trugaredd”.

Efallai bod ei eiriau gwreiddiol yn y Saesneg yn taro’n galetach:

“operationally messy, socially unfair and unforgiving”.

Gofynnais i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol felly, fel cwestiwn atodol, i ohurio dwyn y cynllyn i fewn yn ei grynswth. Os na fedrai wneud hynny, roedd yna gwpwl o bethau roeddwn i eisiau iddo eu gwneud, sef dileu’r cyfnod aros gan wythnos a thalu’r budd-dal pob pythefnos yn hytrach na phob mis. Bydd Aelodau yn gyfarwydd â’r problemau a all godi hefo trio cyllido am fis ar swm gymharol fach. Wrth gwrs, mi oedd yna gyfnod aros lle roedd pobl yn disgwyl am wythnos heb gael budd-dal.

Bydd Aelodau yn gyfarwydd â dadl y Bonheddwr gwir anrhydeddus dros Chingford a Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), sef awdur y drefn yma. Dywedodd y dylai credyd cynhwysol adlewyrchu’r byd gwaith: mae rhan fwyaf o bobl yn cael eu talu’n fisol, felly dylai’r fudd-dal fod yn fisol hefyd er mwyn eu paratoi i fynd i swydd. Wrth gwrs, mae hyn yn anwybyddu’r ffaith fod llawer yn debygol o fod ar gredyd cynhwysol am gyfnodau amhenodol—cyfnodau hir iawn—heb obaith am waith. Yn fwyaf sylfaenol, mae hyn yn anwybyddu anawsterau garw didoli symiau bach o incwm dros fis cyfan yn hytrach na dros wythnos neu pythefnos.

Dro yn ôl, rhedais surgery i gynghori pobl oedd yn gorfod ymdopi efo’r treth llofftydd—y taliad am lofft ychwanegol. Rhoddodd un ddynes restr o’i gwariant i mi. Roedd £1 ar waelod y rhestr. Gofynnais, “Be’ ’di’r bunt yna?” Atebodd, “Wel, ’dwi’n gorfod cerdded lawr i’r dre i siopa, ac unwaith pob pythefnos, ’dwi ddim yn cerdded yn ôl, ’dwi’n mynd ar y bys.” Dyna beth oedd y bunt. Mae pobl ar arian wythnosnol yn medru ymdopi yn rhyfeddol o fanwl hefo’r hyn o arian sydd ganddynt, yn bennaf wrth gwrs am nad oes gennyn nhw ddewis.

Ni chytunodd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i’m cais i ohirio cyflwyno’r budd-dal, ond dywedodd rhywbeth arwyddocaol: y byddid yn gwneud newidiadau pan ac os fydd angen, fesul tipyn. Roedd hynny’n rhywbeth reit bositif iddo ddweud: nad oedd popeth yn gwbl sefydlog, ac y gellir gweud newidiadau. A dyma ni—mae rhai newidiadau yn y Gyllideb, er rhai bychain ac annigonol ydyn nhw. Er hynny, mae nhw i’w croesawu.

Felly beth yw’r newidiadau? Daw y cyfnod disgwyl am fudd-dal i lawr o chwech wythnos i bump—o 42 diwrnod i 35. Fel bydd rhai Aelodau yn gwybod, telir y budd-dal yn fisol, ond rhaid disgwyl pythefnos ychwanegol ar y dechrau. Mae hyn wedi achosi problemau sylweddol yn barod. Natur y chwech wythnos oedd: pedair wythnos i wirio’r incwm—gan fod pobl am gael eu talu yn fisol, rhaid cael manylion incwm am fis—wedyn wythnos i brosesu ac wythnos i ddisgwyl. Mae’r wythnos i ddisgwyl wedi mynd. Roedd y rhan fwyaf ohonom sydd yn cymryd diddordeb yn y maes yma yn gwybod nad oedd yr wythnos ddisgwyl yn golygu fawr o ddim byd yn ymarferol.

(Translation) I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this historic debate. Like everyone else, I am also very pleased finally to be able to speak Welsh here in Westminster. I have had the opportunity to speak Welsh before, when the Grand Committee went to Wrexham a while ago, but being able to speak Welsh in Westminster is a further significant step forward, as the authorities here in London finally come to terms with the fact that the United Kingdom is not a monolingual state.

In fact, monolingualism in Wales will become the exception. Apart from the obvious arguments that stop me as a Welsh speaker being able to speak Welsh, it also restricts the ability of my constituents to be represented through the medium of Welsh. There is a strong common sense element in favour of moving to a position where the medium of our discussions here reflects the fact that the linguistic nature of our country is diverse. We should be reflecting the situation in Wales, and speaking Welsh should be a part of that.

My intention this afternoon is to speak briefly about the Chancellor’s proposals on universal credit and—Government Members will be pleased to hear this—to welcome the proposed changes in so far as they go, although I would say that they do not go far enough. I think the same would be true of many people who take an interest in this area, who would like to see the changes go further. It is certainly not far enough for the people who will be claiming the benefit in the future, as universal credit comes in. It does not go far enough for me, as someone who represents people and presses on the Department for Work and Pensions for improvements in this regard.

The concerns about the new system are clear enough. On 9 October last year, in DWP questions, I asked the then Secretary of State, who was new at the time, having just been appointed, what progress he had made in bringing in universal credit and where we had reached. As some hon. Members will know, a pilot had been run in the area of Shotton. That represented about 5% of the population who can now claim universal credit. The response of the Secretary of State was that the new benefit was about to come in as expected, and we see the scheme coming into force now.

I then said that there was quite a bit of support for the principle behind universal credit. I think that there is agreement across the House that the principle of universal credit is a very good one, ensuring that people have an income and can go into work much more easily. The agreement on universal credit is in place, but none other than Sir John Major said, with regard to this matter, that the way that universal credit had been brought in up until now was chaotic and showed a lack of mercy. It perhaps comes across better in his own words:

“operationally messy, socially unfair and unforgiving”.

I therefore asked, as my supplementary question, for the scheme to be postponed as a whole. If that were not possible there were a couple of things that I wished the Department to do: to bring the waiting period down a week and to pay the benefit every fortnight instead of every month. Hon. Members will be aware of the problems that may arise from trying to budget for a month on a comparatively small sum. Of course, there was a waiting period where people could wait for a week without receiving any benefits.

Members will be familiar, of course, with the argument of the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), who was the author of the system. He said that universal credit should reflect the working world: the majority of people are paid monthly, so the benefit should also be paid on a monthly basis, and that would prepare people for the world of work and getting a job. That ignores the fact that many people are likely to be on universal credit for periods that may not be defined, without any hope of getting work. More fundamentally, I believe that it ignores the difficulties of dealing with small sums over a month, rather than a week or a fortnight.

Some time ago, I ran a surgery to advise people who were dealing with the bedroom tax. A woman who came in with a list of expenditure that had £1 at the bottom. I asked, “What’s that £1 for?”, and she said, “Well, I have to walk down to town to shop. Once a fortnight, I don’t walk back. I take the bus.” That is what it was for. People on a weekly budget cope remarkably well, mainly because they have no other choice.

The Secretary of State did not agree with my proposal to delay or postpone bringing the benefit in, but he said something significant: changes will be made when necessary, as necessary and step by step. It was positive of him to say that the benefit is not entirely set in stone and that changes can be made. Now there are welcome changes in the Budget, although they are quite small and insufficient.

Those changes reduce the waiting period from six weeks to five weeks—that is, from 42 days to 35. Some hon. Members will know that the benefit is paid monthly, but that people have to wait an additional fortnight at the beginning, which has already caused significant problems. Those six weeks include four weeks to check income, because people are paid monthly so the details of their monthly income are needed, then a week for processing time and a week of waiting. That week of waiting has gone.

Most of us who take an interest in this subject know that that week of waiting meant very little and had no practical purpose.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt pwysig, ond ’dwi’n siŵr ei fod yn gwybod bod unrhyw un gyda anawsterau ariannol yn gallu benthyg arian o’r Adran i sicrhau nad ydynt yn cael problemau. [Ymyrraeth.]

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but I am sure he is aware that anyone with financial problems can borrow money from the Department to ensure that those problems are overcome. [Interruption.]

[Hywel Williams]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt da iawn, a byddaf yn sôn am hynny gyda hyn. Mae’n bosib cael taliad, ond fel dywedodd fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus dros Dwyfor Meirionnydd o’i chadair, benthyciad yw hwnnw, nid taliad.

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I will come to that in a moment, but I might as well say now that it is possible to have a payment beforehand, but that is a loan rather than a payment, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd said from a sedentary position.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

That change puts people into debt straightaway. The Government have not addressed the flaws in the system. The Trussell Trust says that in areas where universal credit has been rolled out for six months or more, there has been a 30% increase in people taking up food parcels. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that those statistics lay bare the link between welfare reform and emergency help?

[Hywel Williams]

Mae’r Foneddiges anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt arbennig o dda. Mae’r Trussell Trust, a mudiadau eraill wrth gwrs, yn rhedeg banciau bwyd trwy Gymru gyfan, ac maen nhw wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol. Mae gennym ni rhai da iawn yng Nghaernarfon ac ym Mangor, a ’dwi wedi bod yna yn eu gweld nifer o weithiau. Gyda llaw, fy marn i am fanciau bwyd yw bod o’n dda i’w cael nhw, ond yn gywilydd bod gennym eu hangen. Fel dywedodd y Foneddiges anrhydeddus, mae cael benthyciad ar y dechrau yn golygu bod yna ddyled yn syth bin. Tydi hynny ddim yn safbwynt da i gychwyn gyrfa fel hawliwr credyd cynhwysol. Nes ymlaen, wna’i sôn am ymchwil sydd wedi cael ei wneud yn Sir Fflint ynglŷn â lle mae’r problemau efo credyd cynhwysol. Bydd hyn yn ddadlennol.

O’r hyn roeddwn i’n deall, prif bwrpas yr wythnos o ddisgwyl oedd arbed arian. Doedd dim pwrpas arall iddi. ’Dwi’n eithriadol o falch o weld y cyfnod yna yn mynd, ond gallasai’r Canghellor fod wedi gwneud llawer mwy, er enghraifft, torri’r cyfnod prosesu hefyd, fel bod rhywun yn cael yr arian mwy neu lai’n syth bin ar ddiwedd y pedair wythnos pan mae’r incwm wedi’i wirio.

Newid arall ydy, fel y sioniodd yr Aelod anrhydeddus dros Fynwy, y bydd taliad ymlaen llaw ar gael o dan rhai amgylchiadau o fewn pump diwrnod o wneud y cais. Yn fuan iawn, bydd rhywun yn dod i sylweddoli efallai nad yw’r credyd cynhwysol ddim yn ddigon a bydd rhywun yn medru gwneud cais am bres ychwanegol. Gobeithio bydd pobl ddim yn mynd heb ddim. Ond er hynny, fel ddywedodd yr Aelod anrhydeddus dros Ddwyrain Casnewydd, mae hyn yn rhoi rhywun i fewn i ddyled. Y newid arall positif a gyhoeddodd y Canghellor oedd bod y cyfnod talu’n ôl yn 12 mis yn hytrach na chwech. Ond benthyciad ydy hwn. Newid bychan ond un i’w groesawu. A dyna ni yn y bôn, hyd y gwela i, o’r Gyllideb. Nid y cyfnod disgwyl ydy’r brif broblem efo credyd cynhwysol, na chwaith y taliadau ymlaen llaw.

Hoffwn siarad ychydig bach am y pethau y byddwn i a Phlaid Cymru yn hoffi gweld yn cael eu newid ynglŷn â’r budd-dal, fel rhyw rhestr siopa i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a’r Canghellor at y dyfodol. Mae credyd cynwhysol yn arbennig o bwysig i Gymru, gyda chynifer o bobl yn medru ei hawlio. Ac i fod yn blaen—waeth i ni fod yn blaen ddim—mae hynny am fod gennym ni gymaint o bobl sy’n dlawd ac ar gyflogau isel. Dyna pam rydym yn medru hawlio gymaint o’r arian yma ar gyfradd uwch na’r Alban a Lloegr.

Bydd y cyfanswm o bobl sy’n medru hawlio credyd cynhwysol yng Nghymru yn cynrychioli tua 400,000 o aelwydydd. Mae hyn yn gyfran enfawr o’r bobl sydd yn byw yn ein gwlad, yn arbennig o gofio mai cartrefi ac aelwydydd yw’r 400,000, ac mae’r teuluoedd sy’n byw yno—y plant a’r gŵr neu’r wraig—yn ychwanegol i hynny. Felly, bydd y nifer absoliwt o bobl fydd yn dibynnu i ryw raddau ar gredyd cynhwysol yn sylweddol eto. Oherwydd hynny, byddai diwygio pellach o fudd eithriadol i ni yng Nghymru, yn arbennig o gofio fod pobl ar incymau is yn tueddi i wario’n lleol ac mae’r bunt sy’n cael ei gwario’n lleol yn mynd ymhellach o lawer yn yr economi lleol hefyd. Felly, nid mater absoliwt o gael incwm ychwanegol yw hyn, ond hefyd rhoi hwb i’r economi lleol.

(Translation) The hon. Lady makes an exceptionally good point. The Trussell Trust and other organisations run food banks throughout Wales. The number of food banks has increased substantially—we have two very good ones in Caernarfon and Bangor, which I have visited many times. It is good to have them, but it is shameful that we need them. I will try to assist them. As the hon. Lady said, receiving a loan at the beginning means that debt is immediately accrued, which is not a great position for someone receiving benefits to start from.

The problems in Flintshire are illustrative of the problems with universal credit. From my understanding, the main purpose of the additional week of waiting was to save money, so I am glad that it has been removed. The Chancellor could have done much more, however, such as trying to cut down on the processing time so that people get the money almost immediately after the four weeks in which income has been checked.

The other proposed change is that the payment beforehand, which the hon. Member for Monmouth mentioned, will be available five days before. Very soon, people will come to see that universal credit may not be sufficient, and it will be possible to apply for further funding. I hope people will not lose out or go without anything as a result because, as the hon. Member for Newport East said, that can lead to debt. The other positive change that the Chancellor introduced was to make the repayment period 12 months, rather than six. I welcome that change, although it is very small. I do not think the waiting time or the advance payments are the biggest problem with universal credit.

I would like to talk about some of the things that I and Plaid Cymru would like to see in relation to the benefit—a sort of shopping list for the Secretary of State and the Chancellor to look at in the future. Universal credit is extremely important for Wales, because we have so many people who can claim it. To be plain—we might as well speak plainly—that is because we have so many people who are poor and on low incomes, which is why we claim the benefit at a higher rate than England and Scotland.

About 400,000 households can claim universal credit in Wales, which is a huge number, particularly when we bear in mind that there are other members of those families, including children, so a huge number of people are to some extent dependent on universal credit. Further reform would be extremely beneficial for us in Wales, particularly bearing in mind that people on lower incomes tend to spend their money locally. A pound that is spent locally goes much further in the local economy. This is about not simply getting additional income, but boosting the local economy.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am following what the hon. Gentleman is saying very closely. Is he aware of a study commissioned by the University of Cambridge and University College London, which found that austerity killed 45,000 people between 2010 and 2014, and that a further 152,000 people will die because of austerity between 2018 and 2020? It describes austerity as economic murder. Does he agree that Wales is particularly vulnerable to the impact of that inhumane policy?

[The Chair]

Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Arfon, may I remind Members that, when they stand to speak or intervene, they must turn down the volume of their headsets? Otherwise, we all hear the noise that we are currently experiencing in our headsets.

[Hywel Williams]

Diolch i’r Aelod anrhydeddus dros Orllewin Abertawe am y pwynt hwnnw. Doeddwn i ddim yn ymwybodol o’r ymchwil arbennig yna. Rydym yn sôn fan hyn am bobl sydd reit ar ymyl y dibyn yn aml: pobl cyn agosed â phosib i fod mewn tlodi absoliwt, ynghyd â phobl sydd ar incymau isel sydd mewn gwaith ac yn ceisio mynd i fewn i’r gwaith. Mae’r ffigyrau hynny’n frawychus.

Mae dipyn mwy o ymchwil yn dod i’r fei ynglŷn â hyn. Dwi wedi bod â diddordeb ynddo ers blynyddoedd lawer, yn bennaf oherwydd fy mod yn ymwybodol bod llawer o bobl yn fy etholaeth eisiau hawlio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond bod y ddarpariaeth ddim yna. Wnai sôn am hynny mewn munud. Mae fwy o ymchwil yn dod i’r fei rwan, gan gynnwys, Mr Hanson, o’ch ardal chi, gan Gyngor ar Bopeth Flintshire Citizens’ Advice. Buaswn yn cymeradwyo’r adroddiad “Our local experience of Universal Credit Full Service” i’r Aelodau anrhydeddus yn yr ystafell ac i unrhyw un sydd yn gwrando. Mae yna adroddiad misol—mae hwn o fis Hydref, mae un arall gen i fan hyn o fis Tachwedd y llynedd. Maen nhw’n cyhoeddi ffigyrau a ffeithiau digon diddorol. Bydd yr Aelodau anrhydeddus yn cofio, wrth gwrs, fod credyd cynhwysol wedi cael ei redeg fel peilot yn Shotton, felly mae ganddynt ddeunydd crai ar gyfer eu hymchwil sydd ddim ar gael mewn llefydd eraill. Mae ffeithiau dadlennol yno; roeddwn yn sbio arnynt rwan, tra’r oedd yr Aelod anrhydeddus dros Drefaldwyn yn siarad. Mae tri-chwarter y bobl a ddaeth atynt am gyngor yn ferched. Mae yna rhaniad gender eithaf sylweddol yn y fan yna.

Fel gwybodaeth i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a’i Gyfaill gwir anrhydeddus, y Canghellor, mae’r problemau oedd yn codi yn sir y Fflint yn codi allan o bethau fel camgymeriadau gan yr adran ei hun—roedd rheina’n frith; hawlio ar-lein yn broblemus yn arbennig i bobl heb sgiliau llythrennedd; gorfod disgwyl ar y ffôn yn ddiddiwedd; budd-dal tai ddim ar gael ar amser neu ddim yn cael ei dalu o gwbl; a’r cyfnod aros yn wrthgymhelliad â phobl yn dweud na allent ddisgwyl am chwech wythnos i gael yr arian. Yn fwyaf arwyddocaol, i ddweud y gwir, mae rhan fwyaf y problemau’n codi o gwmpas y cais cyntaf, gyda phobl yn ceisio gwneud cais ac yn methu neu yn cael camgymeriadau wrth wneud.

Does dim gwybodaeth fan hyn, gyda llaw, ynglŷn â hawlio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Roedd y peilot oedd yn cael ei rhedeg yn Shotton, lle nad oes cymaint o bobl yn siarad Cymraeg, ond dwi’n siwr y daw hyn i’r amlwg wrth i’r system gael ei weithredu trwy Gymru gyfan. Pan es i Shotton i weld y system gyfrifiadurol sydd ganddynt—mae hyn eto yn bwynt i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a’i gyfeillion yn y Cabinet—doedd y system ddim wedi ei chynllunio efo dwyieithrwydd yn y golwg. Hynny yw, system trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg a chais i foltio’r Gymraeg arni oedd bryd hynny o leiaf. Oherwydd hynny, roedd yna broblemau garw efo’r feddalwedd—does dim amheuaeth am hynny. Dwi yn ofni y gwelwn ni ragor o broblemau efo hynny. Buasai’n dda gweld y Llywodraeth yn gweithredu ymhellach na’r Canghellor y tro hwn.

Hoffwn orffen trwy nodi ychydig o newidiadau buddiol, fel rhyw rhestr siopa at y dyfodol, i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a’i Gyfaill gwir anrhydeddus, y Canghellor. Mae yna fân-doriadau wedi bod i gredyd cynhwysol yn barod ers iddo ddod i fewn. Mae yna rywfaint o dorri fan hyn a fan draw, rhyw dameidiau bach sydd yn mynd yn fwy ac, erbyn hyn, mae e’n £3 biliwn yn is o ran gwariant. Mae’n swm sylweddol iawn o ystyried bod y £3 biliwn yna, yn y bôn, yn dod o bocedi hawlwyr sydd ar incwm digon isel i hawlio, digon isel fel mae. Fel canran o’r boblogaeth, maen nhw’n colli £3 biliwn. Hefyd, ar hyn o bryd, mae hawliwr yn colli 63c o bob punt ychwanegol o incwm. Felly, os ydy rhywun yn gweithio fymryn yn galetach a chael punt ychwanegol o incwm, maen nhw’n colli 63c o fudd-dal. Dyma’r tapr.

Pan nes i ddechrau cymryd diddordeb yn y maes hwn bron i 30 mlynedd yn ôl erbyn hyn, pan oedd y Social Security Act 1986 yn dod i fewn, bryd hynny roedd y tapr yn fwy na phunt am bunt. Bydd rhai Aelodau yn cofio hynny: rhywun yn ennill £1 ac yn colli £1.20 oherwydd daeth budd-dal tai i fewn. Diolch byth, mae e lawr i 63c yn y bunt rwan, yn hytrach na 65c yn lled-ddiweddar. Mae’n parhau i fod yn llawer rhy uchel yn fy marn i ac mae’n wrthgymhelliad sylweddol i weithio mwy ac ennill mwy. Rydym yn sôn o hyd yn y lle yma am waith fel ffordd allan o dlodi. Wel, dyma ni: gwrthgymhelliad pendant. Dwn i’m beth tasai’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn dweud pe tasen i’n cynnig trethi incwm uwch ar 63% yn hytrach na 40%. Mae’n wrthgymhelliad. Mae fel bod y ddadl gwrthgymhelliad yn gweithio pan yn sôn am bobl sy’n ennill llawer iawn o bres—peidio a threthi. Ond dydy o ddim yn gweithio efo pobl sydd ar ryw ychydig; mae eisiau gwneud yn siwr eu bod yn gweithio’n galetach felly peidiwch a rhoi gormod yn eu pocedi. Dylid cymryd camau buan a sylweddol i leihau y tapr a medrwn ni edrych—gobeithio—ar y Canghellor i ystyried hynny.

O ran y rhestr yma, bydd rhai o’r Aelodau anrhydeddus yn gwybod bod gofal plant yn faich enfawr ar rieni pan maen nhw’n mynd yn ôl i waith. Mae gen i a fy ngwraig brofiad uniongyrchol diweddar o hyn. Diolch byth nad ydym ni’n hawlio credyd cynhwysol, oherwydd o dan y system yna mae’n rhaid talu am ofal plant ac yna hawlio yn ôl. Hynny yw, mae’n rhaid i rywun ffeindio’r pres i dalu efallai cannoedd—dros £1,000 efallai—am ofal plant llawn am ddau o blant, ac yna hawlio’r arian yn ôl. Mae hynna yn sicr yn rhoi pobl mewn dyled unwaith eto. Felly, byddai talu costau gofal plant ymlaen yn hytrach nag yn ôl yn newid bach na fyddai’n costio llawer i’r Llywodraeth. Mater o dalu’n gynt ydy o, nid mater o dalu’n ychwanegol. Cymeradwyaf hynny fel newid buddiol.

Yn olaf ar y rhestr mae’r lwfans gwaith, sy’n caniatau i rhai pobl ennill rhywfaint—gallant ennill hyn a hyn—heb effeithio ar eu budd-dâl. Ers talwm, pan ddechreuais gymryd diddordeb yn y mater, roedd yn cael ei alw’n “therapeutic earnings”. Dyna ydy’r pwynt: caniatáu i rywun fentro i’r gwaith ac ennill rhywfaint heb effeithio ar y fudd-dâl. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r lwfans werth £397 y mis—bron £400—cyn i neb weld lleihau yn eu budd-dâl nhw. Ond cyn i’r newidadau ddod i fewn yn Ebrill 2016, roedd y ddarpariaeth yma ar gael nid yn unig i bobl anabl a rhieni, fel sy’n wir ar hyn o bryd, ond i bawb—roedd gan unrhywun y cymhelliant bach yna i fentro. Roedd rhai pobl yn medru ennill cymaint â £734 y mis, sydd bron dwyaith cymaint, ond nid yw hynny ar gael bellach. Byddai codi uchafswm y lwfans gwaith a’i estyn yn ôl i bob unigolyn, gan roi iddynt y cymhelliad i fynd at waith, yn gam positif iawn, yn arbenning pan fod un aelod o gwpwl yn gweithio. Efallai byddai hynny yn rhoi cymhelliad i’r ail aelod o’r cwpwl fynd i’r gwaith hefyd.

Cyfeiriais ar y cychwyn at synnwyr cyffredin o ran yr iaith Gymraeg. Ers hynny, rwyf wedi cyfeirio at dim ond cyfran fach o’r hyn fyddai Plaid Cymru am newid o ran y drefn budd-daliadau. Mae yna lawer iawn mwy hoffem wneud, ond mae hynny tu hwnt i sgôp y ddadl yma. Nid yn lleiaf, hoffem ddatganoli rhedeg y gyfundrefn a symud y cyfrifoldeb am nawdd cymdeithasol o ddydd i ddydd o’r lle yma i Gaerydd. Y rheswm dros hynny, wrth gwrs, yw ei fod yn ymarferol ac yn synnwyr cyffredin i roi datblygu’r economi, darparu addysg a hyfforddiant, gwasanaethu i bobl anabl, a phob math o bethau eraill, o dan yr un to â darparu incwm. Maent yn ffitio hefo’i gilydd yn dda iawn, ac mae hynny’n digwydd mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol. Cam cymharol syml—ac un gweinyddol yn y bôn—byddai symud y cyfrifoldeb am redeg y system o ddydd i ddydd o fan hyn i Gaerdydd. Ond, hyd at rŵan o leia, mae’n ymddangos bod yr enghraifft bach yma o synnwyr cyffredin y tu hwnt i ddirnadaeth y Llywodraeth yma ar hyn o bryd.

(Translation) I thank the hon. Member for Swansea West for that point. I was not aware of that research. We are talking about people who are right at the edge and are close to absolute poverty, and about those who are working on low incomes or are seeking to enter the field of employment. Those figures are frankly terrifying.

Further research is emerging on this issue. I have had an interest in it for many years, mainly because many people in my constituency try to claim through the medium of Welsh, and the provision is not available. I will talk about that issue later. More research is emerging, including from Citizens Advice Flintshire in your constituency, Mr Hanson. I commend its report entitled “Our local experience of Universal Credit Full Service” to hon. Members in the room and anyone who is listening. It is a monthly report. This is from October, and I have one available from last November. It publishes interesting figures and information. Hon. Members will remember that universal credit was run as a pilot in Shotton, so Citizens Advice Flintshire has material for its reports that is not available elsewhere. Some of the figures and information are very illuminating; Some of the figures and information are very illuminating; I was looking at them as the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire was speaking. Three quarters of those who came for advice were women, which suggests quite a substantial gender gap.

For the information of the Secretary of State and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor, let me briefly run through the problems in Flintshire, some of which arose because of mistakes by the Department. Claiming was problematic, particularly for people with literacy problems, who had to wait on the phone endlessly; housing benefit was not paid on time or not paid at all; and the waiting period was too long—many people could not wait six weeks for the money. Most significantly, most people’s problems arose in their first application, when they tried to make a claim but failed or found difficulties.

No information is given about the right to claim through the medium of Welsh. The pilot scheme was in Shotton, where not so very many people speak Welsh, but I am sure that that problem will become more evident as the system is rolled out throughout Wales. When I went to Shotton to see the scheme in operation—this is a point for the Secretary of State and his Cabinet colleagues—I could see that the computer system had not been designed with bilingualism in mind. It seemed that it worked through the medium of English and that Welsh was bolted on, so there were severe problems with the software—there is no doubt about that. I fear that we will see further problems. It would be good to see the Government taking action and going further than the Chancellor did.

May I conclude by noting some changes that would be beneficial? I have a shopping list for the Secretary of State and the Chancellor. Since the introduction of universal credit, there have been a few small cuts to it here and there, but they are becoming larger. Some £3 billion less is being spent—a significant sum, when we consider that essentially it comes out of the pockets of those who are on low enough incomes to be claimants. That segment of the population is losing £3 billion. Additionally, a claimant who works hard to receive a further £1 of income will lose 63p of benefit as a result of the taper.

I first took an interest in the subject more than 30 years ago when the Social Security Act 1986 was passed. The taper was more than 100% at the time: as hon. Members will remember, people would lose £1.20 in benefit for every extra £1 they earned, because of the introduction of housing benefit. That taper has recently gone down from 65p to 63p in the £1, but in my view it is still much too high, because it is a significant disincentive to earn more. We often talk about work as a way out of poverty, but the taper is a definite disincentive. I do not know what the Secretary of State would say if I suggested taxing income at 63p rather than 40p in the £1; it seems that talking about disincentives works as an argument against taxing people who earn a great deal of money, but not as an argument against stopping people on lower incomes trying to earn more. I hope the Chancellor will reconsider the taper.

This is not the final point on my shopping list, but as some hon. Members will know, childcare is a large burden on parents when they return to work. My wife and I have direct recent experience of this. I am so very grateful that we do not claim universal credit, because under that system people have to pay for the childcare and then claim it back. People have to find perhaps over £1,000 for full-time childcare and then they can claim that money back. That will certainly put people into debt. Paying childcare costs forward, rather than claiming them back, would be a step forward. It would not cost much more to the Government; it is just a matter of paying more quickly rather than paying any additional sums. I would commend that as a beneficial change.

Finally on this shopping list is the work allowance, which allows some people to gain some money without having it affect their benefit. Some hon. Members will have interest in this, in terms of therapeutic earnings allowing someone to enter the workforce and then to earn a certain amount of money without it having an impact on the benefit. The allowance is £397—nearly £400—before anyone sees a reduction in their benefit, but before the changes in April 2016, this provision was available not only for disabled people and parents, as is the case currently, but everyone. Anyone could gain that incentive to step forward. Some people could earn as much as £734 a month, which is almost twice as much as now, but that is no longer available. Increasing the allowance would affect all individuals. It would incentivise them to get into work. It would be a very positive step, particularly when one half of a couple is working. It would give the second member of that couple an incentive to work as well.

I referred to common sense at the beginning, in terms of the Welsh language. Since then I have referred to only a small percentage of what Plaid Cymru would want to change in the benefits system. I could have said much more, but it is beyond the scope of this debate. However, not least is the devolution of funding the system: moving the responsibility for the day-to-day benefits system from here to Cardiff. That makes practical common sense, so that the economy can be developed, skills and training provided and services provided for disabled people. All those and other things can be done under the same roof as providing an income. All these things fit together very well. They are done in other parts of the United Kingdom. A simple, and basically an administrative, step would be to move the responsibility for running the system on a day-to-day basis from here to Cardiff. It is a small step, but it seems to be beyond this Government at present.

[Several hon. Members rose—]