Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 10th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

I support this Bill as a necessity, without any particular enthusiasm, and I echo and endorse entirely what my hon. Friend the Minister said in exhorting political parties to get back into Stormont to deliver for people. I also echo the point made by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), about the importance of learning from the process of talks and leadership that got us to the Good Friday agreement. We cannot sit like latter-day Mr Micawbers, waiting for something to turn up; we have to try to make the weather. I suggest to my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench that if conversations are not already being had with Dublin as one of the two capital co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement, they should re-inject some energy, pull people in and find out precisely what the issues are and what, if anything, can be done to address them and rebuild trust, in order to get back to serving the people of Northern Ireland through directly elected politicians.

Over this coronation weekend, I learned from our vicar in Blandford Forum a new Henry Ford quote—it was new to me, although possibly not to anybody else. Henry Ford once said that if he had asked the population at the time what they wanted, they would not have said a motor car; they would have said that they wanted a faster horse. Sometimes, we as politicians have to make the weather, and show leadership and shape the debate, rather than merely echo what the base has to say. That requires the vision, the courage and the bravery that we saw from that political class in the mid-1990s, running through to the Good Friday agreement. I am an optimist, and I believe that that spirit of delivery in public service still exists. It is not beyond the wit of this place and the political parties in Northern Ireland to resurrect it and to see Stormont come back.

I think we all recognise that for too long, bold and brave policy initiatives in Northern Ireland have been slightly less to the fore. There has been a tendency to ask for additional moneys from the Treasury, and the Treasury coughing up and providing it through some avenue or another. Everybody is conscious of the unique history of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom, and therefore of the additional needs for public expenditure and intervention that are required, which are different from any other part of the UK. However, as we, hopefully, move forward—we discussed this at the Select Committee this morning, and Sir David Sterling certainly echoed this point—in order to deliver step changes of improvement for those who use public services, a greater reliance on match funding from the Treasury needs to be looked at. That means that local politicians in Northern Ireland deliver new streams of money, either through revenue or expenditure savings, and the Treasury provides new money. To just continually provide new money with no concomitant reform from Belfast does not serve any particular purpose, and arguably raises too many questions in the minds of English voters as to why they are not getting a greater share of the public purse than, for example, those in Northern Ireland, because they too readily and easily forget the difficult history.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee will remember that back in January, he and I argued the toss on issues of how Northern Ireland is financed. Since then, I appreciate that he took a letter from me. He understood exactly where I was coming from on the structural improvements required for the funding of Northern Ireland and launched an inquiry in that regard. I appreciate those efforts, but I regret that even today he is talking about coughing up on a regular basis more and more money from the Treasury, when he knows from the Fiscal Council that this is not a separate discussion about reform, though that is necessary and important for the delivery of public services. Northern Ireland is structurally underfunded by this Parliament, and it has been for years, with a compounding impact on the ability to deliver public services. Rather than pitch us against his constituents in England, would it not be better for him to reflect on the structural underfunding, the resolve to get Northern Ireland to a more sustainable place with public finances and the need to use a comparator such as Wales, which went through exactly the same process 15 years ago, culminating in a financial uplift 10 years ago?

[Simon Hoare]

Let me answer that point first. The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly valid point, and I am grateful to him for being the genesis for the Committee’s current inquiry, which is proving incredibly useful. He is right to talk about the disparity, and perhaps the phrase “coughing up” might not have been the most elegant I could have used, but he knows me well enough to know that elegance is not one of my greatest strengths. I can almost feel a second letter of “I agree with you” coming from him. He will be pleased to know that the one he sent me some months ago adorns the wall of the downstairs loo, as a rare thing of him agreeing with something that I said in this place in a debate on Northern Ireland.

In all seriousness—this is a point we discussed upstairs in Committee—constituents in England, Wales and Scotland are paying for things that residents of Northern Ireland currently are not paying for. While he is right to point to some of the structural imbalances, it does need to be a two-way street. There should not be an opportunity for the continuance of water and other things being outwith the charging mechanisms while expecting additional resource from Treasury to meet that gap. If he has looked at the reports of the Fiscal Council, he will see clearly the amount of money that could be generated by introducing charges.

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[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I appreciate being called earlier than I had anticipated, Mr Deputy Speaker. We had a brief conversation earlier, and despite what you said, the prospect of another four and a half hours of debate is probably too tantalising to ignore. Although normally I do not speak for long, I may take the opportunity to speak a little longer this afternoon. [Interruption.] I jest.

Like others, I lament the fact that we are debating this Bill this afternoon and dealing with a Northern Ireland Office that, yet again, I am sorry to say, is missing a crucial opportunity. It is a Northern Ireland Office that has lost any sense of strategic direction; it has lost the ability to engage, understand and resolve some of the pressures that we have in Northern Ireland. I lament the fact that the relationships from which we benefited over the last few decades no longer exist, and I lament, more than anything else, the fact that, while the Bill has been described this afternoon as legislation that closes a constitutional gap—or continues a governance gap—that opportunity has been 100% missed.

It did not need to be this way. The Northern Ireland Office had been actively engaged with the Northern Ireland civil service over the last three or four months, and had drafted provisions for the Bill that would have given the Secretary of State step-in powers and the opportunity to assist with some of the difficult decisions that are facing our Northern Ireland public service Departments. However, the NIO actively chose to leave those provisions out of the Bill. I know that this is not a Committee stage, but because new clause 5 has not been selected, I will say now that we tabled it to highlight the point that the choices that now rest with permanent secretaries in Northern Ireland are unfathomable. The opportunity was there for political direction on the taking of decisions when political direction was required, but those in the Northern Ireland Office have chosen not to take it. They will continue to say what they have said over the last few months—“It is not for us to make political choices”—but that is a political choice that they have made.

When the Government raised the rates in Northern Ireland this year, while still talking about revenue raising and the need for more finance to come from Northern Ireland, they made a political choice. They increased the burden on homeowners, domestic ratepayers, by 6%, and excluded businesses by freezing their regional rate. They made a political choice. When they talk about revenue raising, they know that some £1.5 billion to £1.7 billion a year is raised from revenue. If every domestic and non-domestic ratepayer in Northern Ireland paid 50% on top of their bills that are due next week, that would still not cover the shortfall that faces Northern Ireland Departments as a result of the budget given to them by the NIO.

When that budget was delivered last week, it was delivered in the explicit knowledge of the decisions that permanent secretaries would have to make, but cannot make. Everyone in the Chamber is aware of the legislative preclusions that prevent them from making those decisions. Members know the impact of the Buick and JR80 judgments. They know that the permanent secretaries cannot do that. They had indicated in advance to the Northern Ireland Office—to the Secretary of State and the Minister of State—that the budget that they were handed would mean they would have to take decisions that would conflict fundamentally with the statutory obligations and duties that they have to undertake. They cannot do it.

While the flexibility on the £279 million is useful in one sense, it is hugely dangerous in another, given the damage that it will do through the breach of parity in public pay awards between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Anything that is agreed in the forthcoming weeks and months in England will benefit public workers in England but not those in Northern Ireland, and that gap will grow. The flexibility is useful, but given the direct knowledge of the underspend and the challenging decisions that will have to be taken, it is outrageous that that is the sort of offer that our Departments have received.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

I agree with much of what the hon. Member is saying about the failure of the Northern Ireland Office to address the governance gap, but does he not think it is a little bit difficult for people to hear him say such things when his party has the power to address all the concerns he has been raising if they return to the Executive? While he is right to criticise the Government, surely he should also exercise some self-reflection on the role of his own party, because all those ills could be cured by him and his colleagues tomorrow.

[Gavin Robinson]

I find it amazing that the hon. Gentleman has made that point. He knows it is the biggest falsehood that is being peddled today, and it was addressed earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). If the Executive were up and running tomorrow, the fundamental damage being caused by the budget and the fundamental choices having to be made would still be there, but the resource would not. Departments are saying today that there is an £800 million shortfall in their ability to deliver, and that they will now have to take decisions that conflict with their statutory obligations, and that same choice will be there tomorrow unless the Government say that they will reflect on the systematic and systemic underfunding of the Northern Ireland budget, and will recognise that the Barnett formula must be assessed on the basis of need. Unless that happens, the choices that are there today will be the choices that are there tomorrow.

Let me spell it out. What do we know from the Department of Justice? It is hundreds of millions of pounds short of what it needs. The police alone do not have enough money to cover last year’s shortfall, let alone an additional £35 million shortfall this year. Where can they make the cuts? They can make them through headcount and non-pay. On headcount, we know that devolution was restored in 2020 under the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which recognised that policing numbers needed to reach 7,500. In March this year the figure was 6,700, and it is projected to be 6,400 in March next year. That is the sort of choice that is available today to a permanent secretary, and would be available tomorrow to a restored Government.

Earlier today, the Minister of State was answering questions about the cost of living crisis, but yesterday we heard from the Department for Communities about the extent of its shortfall. A third of the social homes that were planned to be built this year cannot be built: 2,000 were projected, and 1,400 will be delivered. No money is available for the new health assessments associated with benefits, and there is not enough money to progress the assessment of benefit applications. That is what has been delivered by the NIO: choices that are there today and would still be there tomorrow if there were a return to devolution.

Then there is the enormous shortfall in the Department for Infrastructure, where the permanent secretary is highlighting her statutory obligations and the money she does not have in order to meet them. So what are her choices? To stop gritting the roads? To stop treating waste water? How often do we hear about the importance of climate issues and looking after our environment? But that is one of the choices available to the permanent secretary in the Department for Infrastructure. Another is to turn off the street lights. I do not think that the Secretary of State or the Minister of State or the NIO is interested in streetlights. The only thing in which they seem to be interested at present is gaslights, because the politics of all this has been about gaslighting people in Northern Ireland. What is psychologically questioning our understanding of how finances work, and telling us that we are overfunded when we know that we are structurally underfunded—standing in this Chamber and saying, “Oh, but Northern Ireland gets 121% of what people in England get”, when we know that that is less than what Northern Ireland needs—if it is not gaslighting? That is the diet that we have had over the past number of months, and it seems certain that that is the diet that we are going to continue to get.

The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council has been explicit. When I talked about the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council in this Chamber in January and last year, whoosh, it went straight over people’s heads. It meant nothing. I know that sometimes the figures in these documents are boring, but they are crucially important in terms of the ability to deliver public services for everyone in Northern Ireland.

I represent a constituency that has some incredibly affluent areas, but it also has some incredibly deprived areas where social deprivation is a real thing. Wards in my constituency feature in the top 10 most deprived wards in Northern Ireland. In the Mount ward, at the bottom of my constituency, just off the Newtownards Road, 25% of children are leaving primary school without basic literacy and numeracy skills. Forget the 11-plus—they are going on to secondary school without the basic ability to read, write and count. What has this budget delivered? It has delivered an end to the extended schools programme and an end to free books for babies. Just a few months ago, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee visited EastSide Learning in my constituency. The chairman cheekily asked, “I see those books—the spines haven’t been broken. Does anyone read them?” He was informed that they were brand new books, but the Department of Education is not going to be able to give brand new books to children in my constituency any more. It is outrageous.

The Pathway funding, which is about ensuring the social, emotional and cognitive development of young children before they get to nursery and primary school, is not going to be there. The Department of Education has said that from June there is no money available for such vital developmental early years intervention. Whether it is the Dee Street and the Ballymacarrett youth centre or the Bloomfield Community Association youth centre, all of these interventions matter. The public services that are delivered in Northern Ireland matter, and this budget fundamentally constrains the opportunity to provide for the needs of those children and our constituents right across Northern Ireland. The opportunity was there, and it should be there, to make a difference.

I want to make this point with as much power as I can: we can debate and talk every day of the week about the pressures that exist with the Northern Ireland protocol, the Windsor framework and the impediments to the return to devolution. Whether people agree with me on those issues or they ignore those issues, that is fine; we will continue to work for resolution. But the point needs to be understood that we cannot and will not have sustainable government in Northern Ireland if we do not have sustainable finances alongside a return to devolution.

The idea that any elected representative is going to stand up in government to stand over the dismal budget that has been provided is for the birds; it is not going to happen. I want to see Northern Ireland work. I want to see Northern Ireland as a place where all communities within our Province are at peace with one another and enjoy the benefits of the country that we have the privilege to live in. These issues need to be resolved and that can happen only when the finance is there to deliver positively for those people.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution to the debate and I fully support what he has said about a needs-based approach. Indeed, I think of the work of the Atlas Women’s Centre in Lisburn, in my constituency, which has used Pathway funding to help some of our youngest children to develop the skills they need for mainstream education. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that in seeking to change the way that our public services are funded, it is essential that in Northern Ireland we also recognise the need for the reform of those public services and that part of what we need from Treasury is investment for reform?

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[Gavin Robinson]

The truth is that the shortfall from last year and the shortfall in this financial year need to be covered—that is the short term. The medium term needs to be about getting reform agreed, and the long term needs to be about sorting out how Northern Ireland is funded and providing a stable way for doing so.

There are huge opportunities. Some people like to dismiss it and some people do not want to listen to it, but the last thing we want to see is a return to devolution where the foundations are unstable. We want sustainable government in Northern Ireland. We want the ability to deliver proudly positive public services for the people of Northern Ireland, and we want to resolve the issues that have created the impediment thus far. There is nothing new in that. Sometimes it takes quite a while for people to hear and listen.

We are getting there. I am sorry that we are having to go through another Bill like this and that opportunities are being missed to deal with delivery for the people in Northern Ireland, through one way or another. We want to protect public services. We want to protect the street lights and end the gaslights. It would be nice to have a debate on these issues where we could talk practically and factually about what the impediments are, which all of us work to resolve.

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[Mr Baker]

With the leave of the House, I rise to close the debate, and I thank all those who have participated in it. Once again, we have seen that on the main substance of the Bill there is wide agreement. There is agreement that it is necessary but regrettable, as we continue to seek to avoid the governance gap.

I will now seek to respond to as many points as I can. The shadow Secretary of State raised the issue of some difficult decisions being too much for officials. We recognise that the Bill is an interim arrangement. It clarifies the powers that civil servants need in order to maintain public services in the absence of an Executive. We recognise that civil servants will be uncomfortable taking some of the difficult decisions that are needed. Indeed, it is possible that they will feel unable to take them, but that, of course, is why we need the Executive back. I am aware that we are sounding like a stuck record, but getting the Executive back is what we are seeking to do.

Before I go any further, I will just say to the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) that I know the Prime Minister would want me to say that he is fully committed to the return of devolution, but that is a point to which I shall return later.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, asked about advice. He raised a great point and I am happy to clarify that it is our intention that the options developed for budget sustainability will be shared with the new Executive, and we hope that the new Executive will act swiftly to implement such measures. Further to various points that he made in relation to direct rule, I am absolutely clear that the Bill does not give us any powers to implement measures. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend—it is just the powers of the Secretary of State to direct that there should be advice and consultations, which would fall away.

The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson), who speaks for the SNP, made a speech to which I listened very carefully. I am happy to say that, on this occasion, I did not spot any areas where I disagreed with him, but I shall have to revisit Hansard. I am grateful to him for the manner in which he has approached this debate, and I can assure him that it made a pleasant change.

A number of Members have talked about the budget. I know that if the moment comes that we are forced to bring forward a budget Bill, we will no doubt touch on all of the issues in detail, but I hope the House will forgive me if I do not go into any further detail on that this afternoon. What I will say is that we will have to bring forward a Bill if there is not an Executive, which I and the Secretary of State will regret should that be necessary.

On the issue of funding, the Government have, for many years, recognised the unique challenges that Northern Ireland faces. We have provided about £7 billion in additional funding to Northern Ireland since 2014, on top of the Barnett-based block grant and the Northern Ireland budget. Per person, that is around 20% higher than the equivalent UK Government spending in the rest of the UK. I am well aware of the Fiscal Council’s report, which suggests that, on a needs basis, it should be even higher, but I have to say that 20% extra would go a long way in Wycombe—the streets are not all paved with gold there.

[Gavin Robinson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I will, if the hon. Gentleman will let me finish my point.

We do need the Executive back, and not because we believe all the problems will go away—far from it—but because we need the problems to be addressed by Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. I am very clear that the road ahead will be long and hard for those Ministers.

[Gavin Robinson]

Does the Minister accept that, within the next two years, the upward trajectory for the budget in England is 6%, but the trajectory in Northern Ireland is 3.6%? Per household, that equates to £2,000 less in Northern Ireland than for his constituents in Wycombe.

[Mr Baker]

I am confident that the hon. Gentleman has done his homework, but I hope he will forgive me for saying that I will not confirm the figures when I do not have them immediately in front of me in the terms that he has put them. As I mentioned in oral questions earlier today, for all of us in this House, and indeed in all the devolved institutions, we do need to engage with the fiscal projections of the Office for Budget Responsibility. There is no doubt in my mind that, for the rest of our political careers and far beyond, there will be a problem with meeting the many demands of age-related spending. All of us will need to rise to that challenge, as it will need, in particular, healthcare reform. The Bengoa report is long since overdue in implementation. I also talked earlier about healthcare.

A total of £600,000 a day is spent maintaining a divided education system. It cannot be right just on a cost basis, never mind all of the social divisions that it leads to. That conversation needs to be had. I have made that position clear. The Government’s position is very clear: we are in favour of integrated education. I know that there will be a spectrum of views on this, but when it comes to funding, we are all clear that the problems that are faced will endure. We are clear that there will need to be a conversation about the Barnett formula—I am aware of the Barnett squeeze—but none of these things will be anything like plausible to solve, in a way that will be acceptable to all sections of the community, until the Executive is restored.

Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Committee of the whole House & 3rd reading
Wednesday 10th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Claire Hanna]

I rise to speak to amendment 6 in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), and to make brief comments on a couple of other amendments.

We absolutely echo and share the frustrations of others that we are doing yet another of these Bills in this place. I am struggling to think of a single such Bill—certainly in the three and a half years that we have been here—that was neither a cause nor an effect of Stormont dysfunction, which occupies rather too much time here and limits our potential. We understand the need for interim decision making, but the Bill risks going too far in bypassing Assembly scrutiny. Our amendments aim to address that by guarding against the potential use of graduated responses or the other fairly unedifying stunts that we have seen when the Assembly is being used as a political tool or weapon, and against the cynical use of such Bills to do things that damage public services in the name of reform, as a way to avoid responsibility and scrutiny.

The DUP’s new clause 1(3) instances the possibility of the Assembly functioning in some way alongside these new powers in the absence of an Executive. I want to be absolutely clear: there is, as others have said, no alternative in the here and now to devolution under the Good Friday institutions. People are ready to suspend their disbelief one more time and go back in to make that work, but a graduated response allowing these powers to be deployed to do all the grisly stuff through indirect rule, and turning it into some soap opera where everybody is hopping up and down and opposing the changes, will not be appropriate.

We cannot set up civil servants to instigate and drive controversial issues only to get them out of the way before everyone goes back in. We absolutely need reform in public services, but we need it to be done with scrutiny, not just as a mask for austerity. It needs to be done in a way that builds public trust so that people say, “Yes, you may lose service A, but you will gain service B and C”. Amendment 6 would support and evidence some of those necessary reforms by designing in a role for the Fiscal Council—a body that we have been hugely supportive of—as well as for the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commissions as consultees. Those bodies are truly creatures of the Good Friday agreement. They are there for a reason and they should have a role in this as well, to give them a locus and so that, as I say, it is not used in a cynical way.

I want to address briefly the contradictions in the messaging we are getting about sustainable finances. There is, rightly, a serious public conversation going on about the sustainability of Stormont’s finances and structures. It is absolutely right to tackle the lack of responsibility-taking in our region, which in its century of existence has never enjoyed good governance. It is appropriate that we do that in a genuinely transformative way.

I also want to address the contradiction in what has been said about sustainable services in the light of the punishing and severe budget we face. What is more sustainable to invest in than children and young people, their health, education, future and resilience? The proposed cuts to the extended schools programme, Bright Start mental health support, pathway funds, education authority schools and youth services—alongside the loss of European social funding for Women’s Centre, which provides childcare and many other forms of family support—are the furthest thing from being sustainable. St Malachy’s youth club in the market area of my constituency does a mind-blowing array of interventions with young people, including homework support, citizenship, fitness, nutrition and lawfulness, making them good citizens and getting them ready for the world and the jobs out there. What is sustainable about its finances being cut by over a third, which will undermine all of its work with those young people? We have put off hard decisions for too long, but it is really important that this Bill is not used as a mask for the same austerity that we have had for over a decade, which does not change outcomes and limits the potential of our young people and of our economy, because they are its future.

I want to address a couple of other amendments. Amendment 1 is a vital intervention by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who has, crucially, been vigilant on the ticking timebomb of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, which has the potential not only to deepen and widen the implications of any sea border for goods and for rights, but to dramatically undermine economic sectors and actors on this island. We have absolutely no interest in doing that, so I hope that the reports that there has been change of direction on that very damaging Bill—like others, we wish to hear about those reports in the appropriate place and to have the opportunity to scrutinise them—are correct.

Finally, I support amendment 4, tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), which is prudent and sensible in addressing the cost of division. It is time to get on. There is endemic division in our schools and communities. It is time to get past pointing at it and to start the process of reform, transformation and giving people a feasible way to live shared and integrated lives.

[Gavin Robinson]

I rise to speak to amendment 5, tabled by my party leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), our Chief Whip, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), and other colleagues. I hope that the Minister of State has considered it positively, and I look forward to hearing that the Secretary of State agrees with it. He will know that it does not any way undermine the substance of his Bill, but that it will be hugely important in assisting him in gathering information as part of his consultation exercise, as we navigate and chart our course through the myriad issues discussed this afternoon relating to dangers to public finances.

I do not think that anyone in the Chamber will disagree that I have probably said enough. The long and short of my aspiration is that the Minister of State, given all the pleasant support he has received from us to date, will look favourably on amendment 5.

[Stephen Farry]

I cannot promise to be quite as brief as my colleague, the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), but I will try. Essentially, I want to speak to those amendments that stand in my name: amendments 2, 3 and 4, which are all focused on the issue of financial sustainability. We recognise the line that the Government have put into the Bill, and I seek to encourage the Minister to take it forward in a substantive way.

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[Mr Steve Baker]

I very much appreciate the contribution everyone has made. Everybody who has spoken in today’s debate is very much seized of the issues and very well informed. They have made their points with great force.

The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) raises the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, so I will turn first to amendments 4 and 5 on relative need and needs-based spending. Provisions in the Bill already allow the UK Government to work with the Northern Ireland civil service on fiscal sustainability for the benefit of people across Northern Ireland, so neither amendment is strictly needed. I do not think it would be right for me to commit the Secretary of State to a particular piece of advice or consultation, but we have of course heard the debate—I listened extremely closely to it—and we are all fully committed to the sustainability of the finances, and to treating people justly and fairly.

[Gavin Robinson]

The Minister knows that the DUP tabled amendment 5 and there is a decision to be taken on whether to press it, or amendment 4 tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), to a Division. If the Minister does not wish to commit the Secretary of State to accepting our amendment or to commissioning advice on the basis of the work of the Fiscal Council, it would be very useful if he would at least commit the Secretary of State to engaging with me and colleagues on this issue, so that when advice is commissioned and he is consulting, we can incorporate this as part of the advice he seeks.

[Mr Baker]

Yes, of course. We would be delighted to engage with the hon. Gentleman. We have already said, in relation to commissioning advice and the draft guidance, that we are very happy to engage with Members of all parties, and I am grateful to him for that intervention.

On amendment 6, on the Executive Committee, we believe—with apologies—that it would be unworkable. The decision-making provisions apply only to functions exercised in the absence of Ministers, so once Ministers have been appointed, they can no longer have any practical effect.

Northern Ireland

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. That is why we need a solution that enables the United Kingdom Government and this Parliament to regulate the entirety of the United Kingdom internal market. That is the solution. I am not saying that where Northern Ireland businesses trade with the European Union, EU standards and rules should not apply; I am saying that we can allow for that. What I do not accept is a situation where every business in my constituency must comply with EU rules even if they do not sell a single widget to the European Union. That is wrong, because it harms our place in the internal market of the United Kingdom.

The Stormont brake seeks to address the democratic deficit that I have mentioned, and to an extent, it provides a role for Stormont to pull that brake where changes to EU law occur, but I note that it does not give us any ability to deal with existing EU laws that impact on all manufacturing in Northern Ireland—laws that have been applied without our consent. To that extent, the brake cannot apply. It applies to amendments to EU law or changes new EU laws that are introduced.

I also note that in the proposed arrangements, it is available to the EU to take retaliatory action in the event that the UK Government apply a veto to a new EU law. That is a matter of concern to us in Northern Ireland, because retaliatory action could come in a number of forms. It could include the suspension of arrangements in the green lane, which would impact our ability to bring goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. We need to be clear that it is wrong for the EU to be able to intervene at that level in the free flow of goods from one part of the United Kingdom to the other. I highlight that issue as a real matter of concern to us.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I will.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Before you take this intervention, Sir Jeffrey, I remind you that you have now been speaking for nine minutes. Once you have resumed your seat, I will introduce a three-minute time limit to get as many Members in as possible. Please be cognisant of that.

[Gavin Robinson]

My right hon. Friend will know about the exchange that the Secretary of State and I had yesterday in the European Scrutiny Committee, where he was invited to indicate that the “exceptional circumstances” in paragraph 18 in the schedule to the Stormont brake regulations would preclude a material consideration being the EU retaliatory action to which my right hon. Friend has referred. The Secretary of State was quick to agree with that interpretation. May I ask, through my right hon. Friend, whether the Secretary of State will consider reaffirming the commitment that he gave yesterday? It features in paragraph 14; it does not feature in paragraph 16. Just to be clear: the Secretary of State would not be allowed to consider the threat of retaliatory action as “exceptional circumstances” when exercising a veto.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I welcome what the Secretary of State said yesterday: that we must not allow the threat of EU retaliatory action to influence Ministers in exercising their powers under the Stormont brake. I also welcome the clear commitment the Prime Minister gave to me recently: that the application of the Stormont brake is entirely a matter for the United Kingdom. It is a strand 1 issue under the terms of the Belfast agreement and does not involve a role for the Irish Government in relation to these matters. That is a very important principle for us.

The Prime Minister has indicated to me that in this process the wishes of Stormont will be respected, but I have made it clear that in exercising the Stormont brake we are simply applying in our terms the potential of a veto by the United Kingdom Government on one aspect of EU law. This does not deal with all of the problem, and that is the difficulty we have. The continued application of EU law in Northern Ireland is what creates the problem in our ability to trade within the internal market of the United Kingdom.

It is important that the Government of the United Kingdom take stock of where we are now. I understand that the Foreign Secretary is to attend the UK-EU Joint Committee on Friday to sign off the Windsor framework, and that today’s indicative vote in this House will be used as the justification for doing so. Surely though, our shared objective, as espoused earlier by the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), is to see the political institutions in Northern Ireland restored; we need therefore to continue to engage with the Government to get this right.

My party is committed to doing that. We are committed to continuing to work with the Secretary of State and with the Prime Minister, but that has to be about delivering on the commitment given to protect Northern Ireland’s place within the internal market of the United Kingdom, and to ensure that where EU law is applied to facilitate cross-border trade, it does not impede our ability to trade with the rest of our own country in the internal market of our own country. That is the bottom line for us, and until that is resolved, I cannot give the Government a commitment to restore the political institutions. It is what I want to do, but we need to get this right. I want Stormont to be restored on a sustainable and stable basis, where there is cross-community consent and consensus, but that does not exist at the moment. We need that consensus to be restored.

For our part, we will continue to work intensively to solve these issues, doing so in the knowledge that what has already been achieved was achieved because we were not prepared to accept the undermining of Northern Ireland’s place within the Union of the United Kingdom—the economic Union of the United Kingdom. That is what we stand for. That is what we will fight for. We want to get it right, and we will work with the Government to achieve that.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Committee stage & 3rd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

I congratulate the family once again, and I assure them of our thoughts and prayers in the days, weeks and months ahead as Dáithí continues on his medical journey and as he moves towards getting his new heart.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

Anyone with experience of Northern Ireland issues will recognise what happens when they come to this Chamber. Joy is rarely associated with Northern Ireland issues when they come to the House of Commons, but Dáithí Mac Gabhann and his family have brought joy to this Chamber today. Nothing is broader than his smile from the Gallery, and it has warmed us all.

Much was said on Second Reading about the amendments, and about the politics of the amendments. I have no intention of delving into the politics but, when it was suggested that this could happen here, it was a strong aspiration but it was not guaranteed. Political parties are often accused of not working together, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) and the hon. Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for North Down (Stephen Farry) sat down together and drafted new clause 1. As local parties, they knew the goal. Just as the family never engaged in politics and never lost sight of the prize, local representatives tabled their own amendments.

When I engaged with the Secretary of State late last week on his aspiration not only to support an amendment but to table his own amendments to make it happen quicker, there was nothing we could say in response other than, “Thank you, and please proceed.” He has, and I am grateful to him for doing so. We entirely accept the exceptionalism he has injected into the debate. We know he will not do this on a regular basis, nor are we asking him to, but today, for this issue, for Dáithí and for the issue of organ donation, that has been incredibly important. So I thank the Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley and the hon. Members for North Down and for Foyle. I also thank Fearghal McKinney and Denise McAnena from the British Heart Foundation. I do not think Denise has been motioned, but she does the hard work in Northern Ireland for the British Heart Foundation. Wherever she is listening, I congratulate her on her efforts. I am glad that, despite all the challenges, the Speaker’s Office and the Government have accepted that this measure is important and within scope, and that the amendments could proceed today.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Extent, commencement and short title

Amendments made: 3, page 2, line 15, leave out “This Act extends” and insert

“Section 1 and this section extend”

This amendment is consequential on NC2.

Amendment 4, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Section (Organ and tissue donation in Northern Ireland: procedure for regulations defining permitted material) extends to Northern Ireland only.”

This amendment is consequential on NC2.

Amendment 5, page 2, line 17, after “Formation” insert

“and Organ and Tissue Donation”.—(Chris Heaton-Harris.)

This amendment is consequential on NC2.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 2

Organ and tissue donation in Northern Ireland: procedure for regulations defining permitted material

“(1) Section 52(4B) of the Human Tissue Act 2004 (draft affirmative procedure for regulations defining permitted material for the purposes of deemed consent to transplantation of human tissue in Northern Ireland) does not apply during the relevant period.

(2) Regulations made under section 3(9A) of that Act during the relevant period are subject to negative resolution within the meaning given by section 41(6) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 (c. 33 (N.I.)).

(3) In this section, the “relevant period” means the period—

(a) beginning when this Act is passed, and

(b) ending with the next day on which the Presiding Officer and deputies are in post having been elected under section 39(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”—(Chris Heaton-Harris.)

This new clause would amend the procedure for making regulations under subsection (9A) of section 3 of the Human Tissue Act 2004 while no Presiding Officer and deputies are in post so that they are subject only to negative resolution by the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

Title

Amendment made: 6, line 5, at end insert

“and to amend the procedure for making regulations defining permitted material for transplantation in Northern Ireland under section 3 of the Human Tissue Act 2004 in the period until the Presiding Officer and deputies of the Assembly are elected.”.—(Chris Heaton-Harris.)

This amendment is consequential on NC2.

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.

Bill, as amended, reported.

Third Reading

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Yes, 100%. The fact that people have not been able to meet face to face and build those relationships over a period is probably one of the hangovers of covid. The hon. Lady is entirely correct, although there is a different group of people I would rather see sitting in Stormont at this time, and I very much hope that that will be the case in the not too distant future.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State is right to say that Northern Ireland will succeed when our local politicians work together. We have done so in the past, and we have overcome much greater difficulties than this in the past. However, this issue is not about us; it is about what has been imposed upon us. Does the Secretary of State recognise that while all of us in Northern Ireland, collectively, will serve our people, it has been the case for too long in London that the personalities may change but the playbook does not? Too many consider Northern Ireland politics to be but a game, although for us—for all of us, across communities—it is too important to be treated as a political game. I say that in the aspiration and hope that the Secretary of State recognises that what we have had for the past few years is not good enough, and that the determination to crack the protocol and the impositions that are plaguing all communities in Northern Ireland will resolve those issues.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I hope the hon. Gentleman does not mind if I gently push back. I have yet to meet anyone in Government who thinks that the politics of Northern Ireland, and the people of Northern Ireland, are anything to do with a game. This Government take their responsibilities for every part of the Union, including and especially Northern Ireland, unbelievably seriously, and I hope we will be able to demonstrate that, with the hon. Gentleman, in the coming days and weeks.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Robinson]

I know that if I had attempted to discuss my new clause in Committee, I would have been asked to sit down, but I want the Minster to take away the sense of feeling in the debate about the precarious sustainability of Northern Ireland’s finances in the longer term. I also recognise that the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) has indicated his willingness to engage on the issue.

Some information provided by the Minister demonstrates the danger of falling into the trap of seeing inflation rises and saying, “Yes, we can say it is the most money Northern Ireland has ever had in this year and any previous year”; if the gap continues to narrow and public services get to the stage where they simply cannot function, there has to be a recognition that there is a better way of doing things and financing our public services.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is customary to say that it is a great pleasure to follow the previous speaker—in this case the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood)—so may I thank him for the comments that he made about Dáithí’s law, which makes that convention easier to abide by? I agree with him wholeheartedly, and I thank him for his sincere remarks about our former colleague Alex Easton, the independent Assembly Member for North Down. In such harrowing and tragic circumstances, those remarks will be appreciated by him and by all those around him.

I do not think that there is any need to delve into some of the squabbling of the past 10 minutes, but I place on record my appreciation for the comments of the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle). He rightly identified the huge failure on the part of the Government to deal with or grasp the issues presented to them in the six months following the September 2021 speech at La Mon in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) outlined clearly, in intelligible terms that anyone could understand, how the protocol was fraying the strands of the Belfast agreement. The more those strands fray, the more likely it is that they will snap.

We should not need a history lesson in this Chamber to know that in New Decade, New Approach an agreement was struck that dealt not only with police officer numbers, but with the fact that Northern Ireland had been removed from the United Kingdom’s internal market. A commitment was given to restore Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom’s internal market. If that commitment had been delivered, we would not be where we are today. If the warning that the shadow Secretary of State has highlighted had been heeded at that stage, steps would have been taken to ensure that we did not end up where we are today.

I had to smile when the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), said that we get fed up with him. He then had more to say, but I agreed too early, so I apologise for that. However, he has stood at the vanguard of those who have dismissed and demeaned the legitimate political concerns that have been raised—not post the Northern Ireland protocol, but during its passage through this House and in all the tumultuous years that led up to that point. It was clear as day: we did not support it in October and November 2019, and we did not support it when we came back in January and February 2020.

It is clear as day that when Northern Ireland is removed from its integral place within the United Kingdom, without the consent of people in Northern Ireland; when a situation is created in which Northern Ireland Assembly Members are no longer able to vote, speak or shape laws that attach to trade; when a huge cost is placed on consumers across Northern Ireland and product choice and availability is removed; when there is an attempt to subvent that at a cost of £358 million over the past two years, or some £460,000 a day, for the trader support service in order to ameliorate the bureaucratic requirements associated with the protocol, with grace periods in place; and when people have the temerity to talk about a cost of living crisis, without recognising the huge costs placed on consumers and businesses in Northern Ireland because of decisions taken by this House, there is a problem.

I am extraordinarily sorry to say that this is the second time that as Members of Parliament here we are having to set a Budget for the people of Northern Ireland. That should not be the case. The issues should have been grappled with much earlier. The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee indicated that civil servants cannot make decisions, but we passed the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022 in this House last year. Section 3 of that Act makes it very clear that civil servants are empowered to make a decision even when it has not been put to the Executive, if

“it is in the public interest”.

Am I suggesting that that is an ideal situation? No. Am I suggesting that it could not be better? No. Would we like to be in Stormont, shaping our own destiny? Absolutely we would, but we should not suggest, as has been suggested, that decisions of public importance on life-and-death issues—decisions that are in the public interest—should not or cannot be taken. They can.

That is why I have raised with the Minister of State, on a number of occasions, an issue around Grenfell cladding, as but one example. The hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) will know that she benefited from Grenfell moneys in her constituency because a building there had an ACM cladding system. In my constituency, buildings have non-ACM cladding, for which the Executive have not yet created a scheme. I am not talking about money that the Executive need to get from Whitehall—they already have it. In March 2020, I got letter from the Finance Minister saying that the money had been reallocated because we did not have a scheme, and yet in one complex alone in my constituency there are 474 apartment owners who know that their building is made from materials that need to be remediated. They also know that, two years ago, the Executive got money from Whitehall to remediate that building. They cannot sell their properties. They cannot get an EWS1 form. They cannot borrow against their properties. They are stuck until the scheme is delivered. We are talking about remediating cladding that is a fire safety issue.

[Mr Steve Baker]

The hon. Member makes his point with great force on behalf of his many constituents. Since last week, when we met and discussed the subject and I wrote to him, my officials have confirmed with Northern Ireland civil servants that a scheme is under development. I know that he will continue to champion his constituents on this issue and I will continue to be in touch with the Northern Ireland civil service on this point. Obviously, we do need to see progress on that.

[Gavin Robinson]

I thank the Minister. I appreciated the correspondence, which he copied to colleagues as well, and I appreciate him looking at this. The scheme that was referred to his officials has been under development for well over 12 months now. The scheme envisages a Whitehall Department—it will remain nameless—which is already administering the scheme in England, administering the scheme on our behalf in Northern Ireland as well. Yet, even though we passed legislation in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022 last autumn, officials are still suggesting that, when the scheme is developed, they cannot do anything because they need the Executive to agree it. I was grateful for the clarity in that legislation last autumn that that is not the case and that it need not be the case. It is in the public interest that officials should advance that in the absence of functioning institutions at Stormont.

I raise that as just one discrete issue to highlight how things must move on. Policies must progress. When money has been attributed by Westminster to Northern Ireland for that specific purpose, when the Executive have accepted that there needs to be a scheme, and when there is a blatant need for people who are trapped in their homes or for fear of fire safety issues, it needs to happen.

I mentioned that this is the second time that we have considered a Budget Bill in this place. I want us to cast our minds back to the last process. In that, the Treasury started off with the new regional rate for Northern Ireland at something extraordinarily ridiculous like 18%. I see that one official who was scarred by that process has returned for a second go. However, 18% was absurd. We had to engage significantly with the Treasury on that. In those discussions with the then right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, now Lord Hammond, it was clear—this is the importance for this debate—that we cannot just keep on with the same funding system for Northern Ireland. I invite the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to have an inquiry on that specific point.

There is absolutely no point in either today setting a Budget and thinking things will get better tomorrow or establishing an Executive and believing that it will all be okay. The Northern Ireland funding system does not work. The Northern Ireland funding system will only get worse. The Minister enjoyed saying that Northern Ireland gets a 21% premium above his constituents in Wycombe, but if we are honest about the figures, his constituents are outbid by a 30% premium for households in London, 20% for those in the north-east of England and 20% for those in the north-west of England. All those individuals do better in funding per household than the affluent south-east of England.

Northern Ireland has a disproportionately larger public sector, even though it has a smaller population, because there needs to be a critical mass to provide services. We have higher levels of deprivation; the hon. Member for Foyle mentioned it, and parts of my constituency, west Belfast and other urban environments are in exactly the same position. Rural deprivation is also disproportionately higher than in other parts of the United Kingdom. That all goes back to the Barnett formula from 1979; the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee should grasp the issue. When we engaged with the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, there was a recognition of that, but if someone were to ask the Treasury today whether there is a problem with how Northern Ireland is funded, it does not seem to have any legacy knowledge of that discussion.

Importantly, it was agreed in New Decade, New Approach that a Northern Ireland Fiscal Council would be established to consider how Northern Ireland is funded and the sustainability of our funding system. That has been established and it has published incisive reports that are ignored. If they are not ignored, they are picked up only because people are interested in newsworthy items about Brexit or about the potential for water charges. People are missing the core element of those reports, which is the recognition that, if we do not systematically change how Northern Ireland is funded, the situation will only get worse.

In January 2023, the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council considered the long-term projections for the Northern Ireland block grant. It was 29% of the premium that we received in the 1970s and it has fallen sharply since.

[Simon Hoare]

If the hon. Member would like to set out in a short email or letter to the Committee the scope of the inquiry that he envisages and the reasons that underpin it, I will take that to Committee colleagues in the not-too-distant future and see what, if any, progress we can make on it, because he makes a valid point.

[Gavin Robinson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

It is what is known as the Barnett squeeze: it started off at 29%, it was 25% in 2002 with the Northern Ireland Executive, and it is currently sitting at 21%. Over the next 50 years, it will be 6%. That 6% higher sounds great, but it is not when we assess the relative need of people in Northern Ireland and the disproportionately higher level of public services. The pay parity issue in 2019 and 2020, when nurses went on strike for the first time in the UK in Northern Ireland, illustrates the point entirely: pay awards were being agreed in England, but the funding was not being sent to Northern Ireland to pay nurses the money that they deserve.

In September, the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council was as clear as it could be when it said that, by 2030, Northern Ireland will have public spending below relative need. The tensions we hear about today, and the pain we experience in individual aspects of public services, indicate that we are quickly getting to the point where we cannot provide the public services that people in Northern Ireland need at the funding levels that we have. In the next spending cycle from 2022 to 2025, Northern Ireland will see a 3.6% increase in spending, but in England, there will be a 6% increase. The squeeze will get worse.

I say all that not to be boring—I do not like economics; I do not find it that interesting—but because it is crucial. In Northern Ireland, the headlines will be, “Parliament rushes through a Budget Bill.” The Bill is a snapshot in time that crystallises what has happened over the last 10 months, determines what will happen for the rest of the financial year and sets out projections for the next six months. It misses the fundamental point, however, that unless there is a total and earnest recalibration of how Northern Ireland is funded, the situation can and will only get worse. With or without an Executive, and with or without a protocol, this will only get worse, and public services in Northern Ireland will stall. They will stall and get to a point where it is irretrievable. As an elected representative who believes in raising issues that are of huge importance to the people I have the privilege of representing, I cannot let this evening pass without raising those fundamental issues.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) on this matter. At the outset of my speech, I also refer to the very kind comments made about our colleague Alex Easton. In the course of today’s events, he has sent a little text message thanking colleagues for their kind messages. The unbreakable heartache he must be going through will be unfathomable to most, and we leave him in the care and grace of his God and saviour at this time.

Turning to the less solemn issue of the Budget in Northern Ireland, which this House is passing, I chided the Minister earlier that no doubt he would say that, if we had a functioning Executive up and running in Northern Ireland, the Budget at Westminster would not be necessary and everything would be much better. Legislating for the Northern Ireland Budget Bill at Westminster is of course a mark of the failure of the Government to create the conditions to help restore the Executive. The Democratic Unionist party cannot do that on its own, despite the childish comments from some that, if the DUP just got over the protocol, this thing would be sorted out. If it were that easy, most of us agree it would have been sorted out, but it is not, because there is a problem here that has to be addressed.

It is now two years since the protocol came into effect and the Government have still failed to fix the problem of the protocol. I remember the first debate in the House back in the new year, in January, after the protocol had come into effect. I said then that within a week it was clear that the operation of the protocol would be an unmitigated disaster for Northern Ireland and we should move immediately to trigger article 16. I was told that that was premature and, “Don’t be silly, that cannot be the case.”

It has taken two years for the penny to drop. Among the architects of the protocol, even Leo Varadkar in recent days has indicated his regrets at signing up to it. Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern was in the House at the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee today and again said that this matter has to be resolved. Thankfully, the chorus has started to change. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East is right to single out the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), for, I think for the first time from the Dispatch Box, making it clear that Unionists have actually got a point here, and sooner or later that point has to be addressed.

Six months after I gave my comments in 2020, in a Command Paper, the Government accepted that the

“combination of serious economic and societal difficulties, along with the obvious diversion of trade, would justify”

triggering article 16. That was 18 months ago. We are in what is called the can-kicking phase of the protocol’s existence, with the can just being kicked down the road and nothing actually being done, when all the evidence clearly suggests things should have been done years ago. They were flagged up. There was no excuse not to do them—they were flagged up and should have been done years ago.

A further year on, with no substantive action having been taken and following the understandable and inevitable collapse of the Northern Ireland Executive, the Government introduced the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, claiming the legal justification of necessity. In international law, the doctrine of necessity requires “grave and imminent” peril, yet a further six months and more have passed and the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill appears to be stalled in the other House.

I know the Secretary of State and the Minister of State, and indeed others, want the DUP to put hope over bitter experience and take this Government on trust and restore the Executive before the protocol has been fixed, but the Minister of State will know that it is not going to happen. I have referred to his comments on 23 October when he set the standard; it is a very good and high standard and it has to be met. The Government have got to deal with Unionist demands on the protocol. Those are not just my words but the Minister’s words, and I appreciate his echoing them. There is no point in the Government’s complaining about legislation for a Northern Ireland Budget in this House given that they have failed to address the problems of the protocol over the past two years, when they have had ample opportunity to do so. I hope they will address them now.

I do not criticise the Government for legislating on this matter. I want His Majesty's Government to govern. I do not want them to manage; I do not want them to hold the ring until something better comes along. There will be things with which I disagree and there will be things that I oppose, but it is the Government’s job to govern for our region of the United Kingdom when devolution is not in operation. I therefore do not criticise the Bill on that point of principle, but I believe it has taken far too long for the Government to act, and as a result the public sector finances in Northern Ireland have continued to deteriorate. We need to address that as a matter of urgency.

The options do not get any better if the inevitable is delayed. The time and the personal political credibility of the Government were wasted when they were playing around saying that there would be another election. That was the time for them to act immediately. They should have acted when the leader of my party pulled the First Minister out of government, but it is not a matter of 20 days or so but a year since that happened. The Government have had a year in which to do something about this, not just since the election but well in advance of it. A great deal of time was wasted over that year when the Government were not grappling with the issue.

As my colleagues have already pointed out, devolution of itself does not generate money, with the exception of the rate take. It is important to guard against the idea that an Executive would be an answer to many of the serious challenges faced by public finances. That is not abrogating responsibility; it is a statement of fact. We should not pretend that the Executive is a solution to all our problems. The mere fact that devolution does not produce money is one indication of that. Ironically, spending in Northern Ireland will probably be higher this year in the absence of an Executive—because the Secretary of State was able to secure flexibility from the Treasury—than it would have been if the Executive had been in place. This comes at the cost of next year’s Budget, which I think will be a worry for many people.

There are three points that I want to leave with the Minister. First, the Budget does not deliver on NDNA commitments. As some of my colleagues have already observed, NDNA spelt out the need for a sufficient increase in resources to allow the number of police officers to rise to 7,500, but the Budget does absolutely nothing to achieve that. In passing the cultural legislation, the Government placed reliance on the purported implementation of the NDNA agreement, but the Budget flies in the face of that approach when it comes to policing, which is something that will affect everyone in Northern Ireland.

Secondly, the Budget fails the children of Northern Ireland. It is one thing to set a challenging Budget at the beginning of a financial year, but it is quite inappropriate to impose damaging and undeliverable cuts in the final months. I think that all Northern Ireland Members—and, I hope, the Government—have received copies of a letter that was sent jointly and uniquely, for the first time, by the chief executive of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, the chief executive of the Controlled Schools’ Support Council, a chief executive in the Irish sector, the chief executive of the Catholic Schools’ Trustee Service, the chief executive of the Governing Bodies Association Northern Ireland, the chief executive of the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education, and the chairperson of the Transferor Representatives Council. That letter spells out very clearly that the authors

“question the lack of parity”

between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. They ask:

“Why is the education of a young person in NI valued less than those in England, Scotland and Wales?”

My right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) went into that in some depth. He has significant knowledge, having for a long period headed the section that set the exams in Northern Ireland. I am delighted for Scottish kids. They get the equivalent of £7,600 per pupil. In Wales it is about £6,600, and here in England it is £6,700. Northern Ireland gets £6,400. There is a significant decrease in the moneys available to help children in Northern Ireland, and that crisis is not addressed by the Budget that this House and this Government are presenting to us this evening.

[Gavin Robinson]

To add to that, I outlined the difficulties of the squeeze over the next three financial years, which will see £2,000 taken from the spend of every household in Northern Ireland. That is almost 10% in public spending off every household in Northern Ireland over the next three years.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank my hon. Friend for putting that on the record. It is clear that this Budget and the squeeze that he identified—set by this House—leaves the Northern Ireland education system facing a funding crisis that will affect every child and young person, not just this year and next year but for years to come.

The third point I want to leave with the Minister is that this Budget makes next year’s Budget even more difficult. I touched on that in my earlier comments on being able to get money out of the Treasury. Though it was not highlighted in the Secretary of State’s November statement, this Budget is balanced only by robbing from next year’s Budget. That will make it even more difficult for any new Executive to agree a Budget, given the cost of living crisis and wage pressures. In the absence of reforms or additional funding, it is difficult to see how next year’s Budget will be credible at all.

At the outset of his comments the Minister thanked the various permanent secretaries in Northern Ireland for taking on a very difficult task. It should be pointed out that the various permanent secretaries in Northern Ireland have described this Budget as grotesque. They are not happy being left to carry the can. We find ourselves in a constitutional netherworld where the Secretary of State dips in and out of devolved responsibilities formally and informally in a manner that is frankly unacceptable. That has been referred to by former senior civil servants as an affront to the democratic process.

Although Parliament has the right to legislate for Northern Ireland in the devolved field, it is only in very narrow and carefully defined circumstances that it has the power to take executive decisions. We have seen the Government taking legal powers to intervene in areas such as abortion law and the implementation of the protocol, but not to tackle hospital waiting lists or Dáithí’s law, as raised by the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), to allow Northern Ireland’s new organ donation laws to take effect.

Many will question the political morality of the choices that the Government have made and the right to do that, but it is equally unacceptable, in the absence of direct rule, for the Minister to make Northern Ireland civil servants answerable to him. Direct rule is a legitimate choice for the Government to make in the absence of devolution. It is not a choice that we are asking them to make, but indirect rule where the Secretary of State seeks to wield power without taking responsibility is not acceptable. It puts civil servants in an intolerable position. They are expected to make the cuts but do not have the authority to bring forward the reforms. I go back to my first point to the Minister: govern, do not manage. That is the job and that is what should be done. I hope that the Government will act now. There is an old saying that if you break it, you fix it.

By signing up to the protocol, the Government broke the institutions first created by the Belfast agreement. Rather than asking Unionists in Northern Ireland to do the politically impossible, the Government should face up to their own responsibilities. The Budget will pass this House tonight, but very soon the constitutional no man’s land must come to an end. Either the Government should fix the protocol so that new arrangements can be supported by Unionists as well as nationalists, or they should take responsibility for decision making in Northern Ireland in a way in which they can be held accountable properly and thoroughly by this House.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Steve Baker]

In speaking in favour of clause 1 standing part of the Bill, I do not propose to go through the Bill clause by clause and elaborate on its purpose, because the Secretary of State has not long done that during the debate on Second Reading. I also sense that Members have already spoken to the content of many of the amendments, so I propose to conclude my initial remarks now and then come back to the amendments in detail at the end of the debate.

[Gavin Robinson]

I wish to speak to the amendments in my name and those of my party colleagues. I have a sense from the way in which some colleagues have gathered that they are interested in an accelerated conclusion to proceedings, but I know that nobody would want to deny us the opportunity to talk to important matters that affect the Province and governance in Northern Ireland.

I suspect that the conclusion to our consideration of amendment 13 will be positive and allow Members to retire gracefully from the Chamber. Until we get there, however, it is important to say that I hope that Members were able to discern on Second Reading that there is agreement across the parties on the content of a whole range of amendments—some in scope, some out of scope —tabled for Committee. A number of the amendments are remarkably similar in intent and import. Whether we are Members of the Social Democratic and Labour party, the Alliance party or the Democratic Unionist party, there is common ground to be had among all of us in this Committee stage and in other areas that fell outside consideration. If there is any encouragement to be taken from these proceedings, that should be it.

Amendment 13 is important, given that what we have in governance at the moment is suboptimal. There are ways in which we can enhance the governance oversight and democratic accountability of decisions taken through this Bill. We are asking that the Northern Ireland Office consider incorporating and involving Members of Parliament and Members of the Legislative Assembly in the decisions taken and in notifying us accordingly. That is the import of amendment 13.

[Mr Baker]

rose—

[Gavin Robinson]

I know that the Minister has considered amendment 13 and that he has published helpful guidance, which he may wish to address now.

[Mr Baker]

Yes, we published the guidance as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was making his opening remarks. I draw the House’s attention to paragraph 15 of the draft guidance, which says that records should be kept of decisions that have been taken by officials. It goes on to say:

“A monthly summary report of decisions taken using the Guidance should be prepared by NI Departments and shared with the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will promptly make these reports available to Parliament.”

We will be very happy to append “and MLAs”, and I hope that the guidance, as we aim to amend it, meets the aims and intentions of the hon. Gentleman’s amendment.

[Gavin Robinson]

We are almost there. I am very grateful to the Minister for that clarification. Clearly, the guidance says that the reports will be made available to Parliament. In our normal understanding, that would mean laying those reports in our Library. If we are incorporating MLAs, I think it would also be appropriate for relevant MPs who have expressed an interest in the passage of this Bill and who are from Northern Ireland to be able to get access to those reports. That means making them available in the Libraries of the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and to the Northern Ireland Assembly and relevant representatives.

[Mr Baker]

Absolutely no problem. We will implement that as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

[Gavin Robinson]

Dame Rosie, you can see that there is a willingness and desire to move things along. I am very grateful to the Minister and to the Secretary of State for their engagement. That is a helpful clarification on the guidance.

As I mentioned tangentially during an intervention I made on Second Reading, a number of amendments that were tabled fell outside the scope of the Bill, but I hope that the Northern Ireland Office will engage with us and colleagues across the House pragmatically over the next few weeks, because these issues are not going to go away and need to be resolved.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the Chair of the Northern Ireland Committee.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

The trial is certainly being watched assiduously by my officials and me. However, this Bill is about the restoration of the Executive in Northern Ireland—something that is very important indeed. Unfortunately, the time has come for the Government, and indeed for hon. and right hon. Members in this House, to take action in response to the governance gap that has emerged in Northern Ireland, and that is what this Bill seeks to do.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State outlines his disappointment that we do not have functioning devolution in Northern Ireland and I share that disappointment, but he knows acutely why the Government are not functioning in Northern Ireland. Instead of sharing his disappointment, can he tell us why, in the three weeks since the duty to call an election—or the past 10 months—there has been no fundamental, sincere or considered progress on resolving the Northern Ireland protocol?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I am afraid that it is unfair of the hon. Gentleman to say that. He and this Government are absolutely not commenting day-to-day about the talks between this Government and the European Commission. As both the Foreign Secretary and I have set out at the Dispatch Box, we will continue not to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

The right hon. Gentleman makes his point with great clarity and force, but I think he encourages me to stray a little too far from the Bill on this occasion. If I recall correctly, I have replied to him on the question of veterinary medicines—whether through a parliamentary answer or a letter, I forget. I think I have signed off a reply, but I will check.

Officials are continuing to hold technical talks, but the reality is that there is still some distance between us, even though some of our technical solutions are relatively close. I say to Members on the Labour Front Bench that we need to continue to show resolve. Anyone watching this debate will see that a great degree of consensus has broken out on all sides. My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset, the Chairman of the Select Committee, referred to our bromance, and although I have to tell him that he is not actually my type, people might like to observe the good will that exists in all parts of the House. We all want to get the protocol resolved so that we no longer have to talk about it, get the Executive up and running and move on to providing the good government that the people of Northern Ireland deserve.

Before moving on to other contributions, I want to join Labour Members in thanking the PSNI, particularly in the difficult circumstances it has recently faced.

With great respect to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, I do not think that his visiting Belfast and holding multi-party talks will be a silver bullet. We can see plainly what the obstacle is to the formation of the Executive, and we need to focus our efforts on the European Union. I should just say that the Prime Minister’s attendance at the British-Irish Council in Blackpool was the first such attendance by a Prime Minister since 2007, and I am grateful that he had the opportunity to meet the Taoiseach.

The Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset, made a point about the normalisation of politics, which elicited an interesting response from the leader of the DUP, the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. We have to be extremely clear that we are always going to uphold all three strands of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and the right hon. Gentleman set out clearly that that involves the consent of all communities. During my short experience of being in Northern Ireland, I have heard from the public there—and from a number of Members here, including the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna)—that people are clearly in the market for normal political government that concentrates on public services, and that there is a desperate need for that. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee for making that point.

The role of the Irish Government was brought up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). I want to be absolutely clear that we are not considering joint authority, nor will we. We have kept the Irish Government apprised of our plans to maintain public services in Northern Ireland in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers. The Irish Government share our commitment to devolution and the Good Friday agreement. We are pleased that we have begun to transform our friendship and relationship with Ireland, and we will continue to do so.

A number of Members, and particularly the hon. Members for North Down (Stephen Farry) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon), raised the position that officials will find themselves in. We recognise that civil servants should not ideally be put in a position where they need to take political decisions themselves, but we simply cannot bring forward this further extension without taking measures to ensure that some decisions can be taken in the meantime. We believe that the Bill provides Northern Ireland’s civil servants with the clarity they require in order to take the limited but necessary decisions to maintain the delivery of public services during this period.

[Gavin Robinson]

I want to raise an important amendment that was tabled but not selected for consideration in Committee, on the Grenfell remediation scheme for non-aluminium composite material cladding. The money was distributed and then reallocated in Northern Ireland because the scheme was not in place. There are ongoing discussions with Whitehall. This is a public safety issue and, given that there was a fire in Belfast’s Obel Tower just two days ago, it needs urgent attention. Can we remove party politics and, if we are not going to get traction with this Bill, at least have a commitment from the Minister and the Secretary of State that they will turn their urgent attention to this?

[Mr Baker]

The hon. Gentleman knows that the Government care very much about this issue, as he does. This is a good moment to say the Bill is absolutely not taking powers for this Government to direct what happens in Northern Ireland on any particular policy, which is a good reason to come on to the issue raised by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), whom I congratulate on her victory in providing abortion in Northern Ireland. Before the Bill completes its passage through the other House, we will have commissioned services in Northern Ireland, but the Bill does not give Ministers of this Government the power to direct what is delivered by the Northern Ireland Department of Health, which will find that it is compelled to commission abortion services, but many of the questions she raises will be properly decided in Northern Ireland. That still relies on the Executive reforming to get the work done. We will commission services and, of course, the Secretary of State and I will continue to take a close interest in how those commitments are carried through and delivered.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) raised the issue of Sinn Féin MPs, and he talked about a figure of £10 million, which I do not recognise, so I would be grateful if he provided a breakdown so that I can consider what he said. Sinn Féin MPs are not paid salaries, because they do not take their seats. If we were to treat MLAs similarly, we would presumably reduce their salaries to zero, which is not our intent. We will have an evidence base when the Secretary of State makes his determination, and that evidence base is not likely to recommend the complete removal of salaries. We have chosen, for good, technical reasons, not to connect our measures to pensions. Of course, other measures, such as allowances, will continue.

Northern Ireland Elections

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I think the right hon. Gentleman will be pleased with the pace and sincerity with which negotiations and talks will continue in the coming weeks.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment that there will be no consideration of joint authority. May I mildly castigate the Northern Ireland Office for the 48-hour hiatus when it left that question hanging two weeks ago, with no clarification given? It is a welcome commitment given on the Floor of the House today. If he is extending that commitment into considering the three-stranded approach within the Belfast agreement, was he as bemused as I was to see the Taoiseach of the Irish Republic last Monday indicate that any reforms would have to involve and be predicated upon the agreement of the Irish Republic? The Secretary of State knows that is a breach of strand 1. Does he accept that to facilitate the Irish Government having such a role would represent the joint authority he has just ruled out?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

It is kind of the hon. Gentleman to admonish my Department. I think he will find—this is a problem that politicians have—that I did stand outside the Northern Ireland Department and knock back joint authority within a few hours of it being mooted, but I had also said a couple of other things that seemed to catch the public’s eye rather than that. Our focus is on ensuring that the institutions in Northern Ireland are able to deliver on the priorities of its people, which means that our first priority must be restoring the Executive. The people of Northern Ireland deserve a stable and accountable devolved Government and we will continue to work tirelessly to secure that objective. I hear what he says about other commentators. He will understand that there is a massive international focus on what is going on in Northern Ireland. I, like him, intend to ensure that all strands of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement continue to be agreed to.