Airports: Passenger Numbers

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 15th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister must have noticed considerable activity by airport interests in putting their case before the public. When the Minister travels by Tube, as I am sure he does, in recent weeks he must have left this House and walked past advertisements raising that issue. What reply do the Government give to those important interests? Is it the same lame reply of long delays that we get in this House?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident that the Airports Commission is well able to see past an advertising campaign.

Cyclists: Safety

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, of course cyclists should obey the Highway Code, but the Question with which we started reflected on the fact that deaths and serious injuries for cyclists have increased during the past three years. Several months ago, the Times newspaper launched a campaign on cities fit for cycling and established eight points which have been largely endorsed by the cycling organisations. Are the Government supportive of those points and, if so, what action on them have they taken?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we are generally supportive of the Times campaign; I have the list of all its suggestions here and we are measuring our performance against them. Not every single one can be adopted, but we are trying as hard as we can to reduce the casualties.

Airports: London

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Airports Commission will look at all sites including Maplin Sands or the Thames Estuary airport, and will then come up with a shortlist of which options need to be looked at in greater detail.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister has shown great sagacity in indicating that there may be a change in government. His answers thus far have indicated that one of the two parties that form the coalition votes on one great negative—namely, no to the third runway at Heathrow—and intends to present itself before the next election with absolutely no advance in policy whatever.

[Earl Attlee]

It was the party opposite that came up with a policy for a third runway at Heathrow with no consensus and therefore it did not survive a change in government.

Railways: Crossrail

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that we will need to see a full business case for the revised scheme, and we hope to receive this from Transport for London in the next few weeks. We also need to see a convincing proposition for how the scheme could be funded and DfT officials are exploring options with TfL. I agree with the noble Lord about property benefits but it is difficult to capture them.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will appreciate the progress which has been made on Crossrail and the Minister will know this has been met through a publicly funded system. Why on earth did the Government not follow this process on Thameslink? The severely critical report published today by the National Audit Office states that reliance on a complex mix of public and private finance means that the trains for this project may not be delivered on time.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the NAO report, due to be published today, has been agreed by the department. The report is broadly positive. We welcome the scrutiny of the NAO and are pleased that it has recognised the good progress we have made in delivering the first stage of the infrastructure part of the programme on time and under budget.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether consideration has been given to extending the management by Directly Operated Railways of the east coast main line franchise.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government carefully considered a number of issues before announcing the franchising programme schedule on 26 March. This schedule sees the commencement of a new franchise on the intercity east coast in February 2015. This will return the franchise to the private sector after an extended period of public control, putting in place a long-term partner for the significant investment that the Government will make in the east coast main line in future years.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have two questions. Will the noble Earl confirm that his ministerial colleague in the other place got it wrong when he stated that the publicly operated east coast main line returned a lower figure to the Treasury than the privately operated west coast? The 2011-12 figures show the opposite: £156 million was returned to the Treasury from Virgin on the west coast and £177 million was returned from the publicly operated east coast service, so my second question is this: what, apart from political dogma, inspires the Government to propose ending the east coast‘s successful operation?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first question, the short answer is no. During the three years to 2012, the Treasury received £411 million and £450 million from the east coast and west coast rail franchises respectively. This is completely separate from the money that the DfT paid to Virgin Trains as part of the revenue-based risk-sharing mechanism, which by its nature is variable, so the statement that my right honourable friend made is factually accurate. The bottom line is that the plans that we have set out will drive improvements to rail services and put passengers at the heart of a revitalised rail franchising system. It is also important to remember that rail franchises are not directly comparable.

It was never intended for the east coast main line to remain in the public sector. Indeed, when the then Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, explained in this House in July 2009 the decision to bring the line into public control, he said:

“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely”.—[Official Report, 1/7/09; col. 232.]

Daylight Saving

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw. The statistics have pointed this way for a considerable period. However, surely it would be inopportune for the Government to consider legislation on this matter at present, knowing full well that a significant body of opinion in Scotland is very hostile to the measure and it would look as though this Parliament were seeking to pre-empt the important issues of the referendum.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The difficulty in Scotland, if we went for single/double summer time is that it would be getting light at 10 o’clock in the morning in some places. Time is a devolved matter for Scotland and for Northern Ireland, but the Government are clear that there should be one time zone throughout the United Kingdom.

Transport: Bus Services

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister regaled the House with a list of optimistic policies that the Government were pursuing with regard to buses. However, if the grant and support for local buses are reduced by 20%, how on earth are any of these policies going to make a real difference? Will he recognise that there is absolutely no point in the Prime Minister guaranteeing the bus pass for pensioners if there are no buses for them to travel on?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am a little disappointed. I thought that the noble Lord would have given me a much better run for my money. I accept that there has to be a 20% cut in the bus service operators grant. It is painful. My honourable friend Mr Norman Baker would have liked not to have done it—I am sure he would have fought hard to avoid it—but the best way of reducing the budget is to make small cuts everywhere, and we have had to make a small cut in the bus service operators grant. However, the effect on the bus service mileage has not been as much as one might expect.

Roads: New and Young Drivers

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 18th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, probationary plates are one of the things that we are considering in order to deal with that sort of problem, possibly linked with other measures—for instance, not allowing young or new drivers to carry young passengers.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, of course we are happy to support any measure that improves the safety record of young drivers. However, that does not mean that we support the pricing of young drivers off our roads. The increase in insurance for young drivers last year was 53%. How do we expect young people, particularly in rural areas, to be able to get to jobs, apprenticeships or even education institutions if they cannot afford to run a car?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. Some of the measures we are thinking of have a cost and could have an adverse impact, perhaps meaning that young drivers do not bother with a driving licence at all. Therefore, we have to be very careful about what measures we put in place. As to the noble Lord’s substantive point about the cost of insurance, we are well aware of this. At a previous encounter, I said that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State was shortly to have a meeting with the insurance industry. We intend to hold a further meeting with the motor insurance industry on 25 March, following the successful summits held last year aimed at tackling the high cost of premiums, especially for young drivers.

Republic of Ireland: Aids to Navigation

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 25th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree that there has been surprising co-operation between the Republic of Ireland and the UK Government over many years. It is important to understand that the general lighthouse authorities will continue to co-operate around the coasts of the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will of course welcome the optimistic and accurate position which the noble Earl has reflected. However, the urgency of the situation ought not to be underestimated. General shipping costs are going up 11% this year on these dues. For shorter crossings and ferries, they are going up by 43%. People have ways of avoiding these costs, such as by putting into other ports if costs continue to escalate. I therefore hope that, in the time before the full Irish payments come in, increases in costs are kept to an absolute minimum.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, throughout this process, all GLAs have managed to reduce their operating costs, which is a great benefit to the shipping industry. We will shortly determine the light dues for 2013-14, but there is already a commitment from the Government that in cash terms they will not go up. One of the beauties of light dues is that they are quite a difficult tax to avoid. It is pretty obvious when you take a big ship into a harbour.

Railways: Fares

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I know how much my noble friend supports HS2. The business case for HS2 is not predicated on premium fares.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am surprised that the Minister takes a patronising attitude to what the public understand. The public understand fare increases quite clearly. The National Audit Office warned that if excessive fare increases occurred they would merely be reflected in higher profits for the train operating companies. The Prime Minister said that fares should not go up by more than 1% above inflation—in other words, 4.2%. How does the Minister justify fare increases of 9%?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, a fare increase of 9% can arise where you have the RPI plus one, plus the flexibility that is necessary in order that train operating companies can adjust their fares to suit changing conditions. For instance, let us suppose there was a new shopping centre in an adjacent town. It might be desirable to adjust the pricing structure to reflect that. If there were no flexibility, train operators would not be able to adjust their price structure but would have to stick with an old system.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is quite right in his analysis of a possible solution. Indeed, that is what happens. A committee called HADACAB determines whether we need to cancel some flights in advance in order to provide capacity to do things such as keep the runway clear. In addition, in future, as a result of the Civil Aviation Act 2012, the Civil Aviation Authority will be able to set resilience conditions on the operator’s licence, but that will not be until April 2014.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am so sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was unable to ask this Question. That would have given me the opportunity to agree with him twice in consecutive days, which would be some kind of record as far as he and I are concerned.

As the Minister is so well briefed as to tell us what other European airports suffered delays, will he put in the Library an analysis of these problems, because north American airports, which have vastly more problems with snow than the UK, seem to keep planes flying through a great deal of it? It would be interesting to have a real, proper comparison.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the way I would explain the situation with regard to my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lady Browning is: out of the frying pan and into the fire.

As the noble Lord will understand, the meteorological conditions in north America are very different from those at Heathrow. It is interesting to note, however, that airports such as Zurich, Geneva and Basle also experienced cancellations.

Helicopter Flights: Central London

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, when we have a disaster such as this we need to look at the technical aspects and listen to the advice from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch and the Civil Aviation Authority. As to the planning system, that is a rather different question; we have debated planning quite a lot recently in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, one feature of the response to the crash was the speed and efficiency with which the emergency services dealt with the accident. Is the Minister aware that the fire appliance that arrived there early came from Clapham fire station, which, under the mayor’s proposals, is due for closure? Will the inquiry examine that point? Does not this crash indicate how dangerous it is to cut back on our essential emergency services?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch to choose whether or not to comment on this matter. Provision of fire cover in London is a matter for the mayor under the legislation introduced by the party opposite.

Airports: Capacity

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I understand that there are some difficulties with the runway orientation of Northolt airfield. I am sure that that is a factor that the Airports Commission will take into consideration.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, in his opening response the noble Earl referred to the fact that a consensus was necessary to make progress over the considerable period of time needed to expand airport capacity. Although he quoted 86% for the south-east airports, we know that Heathrow is at over 99% utilisation and has no scope at all for development. The Opposition have offered to the Government for more than a year now the opportunity to establish a consensus by joint talks. Could the noble Earl at least persuade his ministerial colleagues that these should take place, and that they would be aided by a somewhat earlier timetable for the commission’s report? Why is it having to report after the general election when the urgency of the situation is apparent to everyone?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes a strong point. The Airports Commission will report with its initial findings by the end of the year. I would be delighted to talk to the noble Lord privately when we get that initial report. But it takes time to do the job properly.

Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Committee) Order 2013

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords—

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am somewhat surprised that the Minister did not think that there would be a view from the opposition Front Bench on this issue, particularly given the Government’s record in handling this matter. Speeches from both sides of the House have clearly stated the advantages of preserving volunteers and their work, the spirit that they bring to that work and their achievements, which are on record. When they swept this particular element of largely volunteer work and constructive work by communities, the Government were seeking to establish the great society.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am grateful to my noble friend, but he will forgive me if I feel that the challenges that we ought to put down today are not to former members of the Cabinet but to Ministers who speak in this House on behalf of members of the Cabinet still exercising power at present. The Minister should recognise that the contributions today have shown how necessary it was for him to make the shift that has been made regarding the original intention of abolition, and not to care little about what happens subsequently. It is quite clear that the Government have understood that necessary work needs to go on, but my noble friend Lord Faulkner has identified where they are still falling short of giving a guarantee that this work will be carried out as thoroughly as it has been done in the past. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give some clear answers to my noble friend, because the anxieties of the House are manifest.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the kind words from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. Noble Lords supporting him seemed to be a bit more strident than the noble Lord himself. As your Lordships will be aware, I am also very keen on the preservation of our country’s transport heritage, particularly road transport vehicles. Sadly, I do not have enough time to get involved with railway preservation. However, no one should underestimate the sterling work of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. You can have thousands of volunteers on the ground, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, but you need the support of people such as the noble Lord to skilfully interface with central government.

In moving his amendment, the noble Lord talked about the scope of the order. The noble Lord will know that Ministers gave very careful consideration to these matters but, for the reasons outlined in my opening remarks, it was not possible to accede to his request. However, we recognise that the structure of the rail industry has changed in recent years, and indeed a number of respondents to the consultation indicated that they should be included in the scope of the designation powers.

Wider changes to the way in which the designation process operates, which would require changes to the 1996 Act, would also be beyond the scope of what can be done in relation to the RHC under the Public Bodies Act. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport will carry out a review within three years, after the designation function has transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum, in order to establish whether further bodies, or classes of bodies, should be included within the scope of the 1996 Act and whether the burden on bodies, as a result of the exercise of the designation function, can be reduced.

The noble Lord referred to the problem of well meaning members of the public and the benefits of having the RHC, or an equivalent, to determine these designation matters. I agree entirely. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, with whom I have never debated before, spoke about the work and the need for the designation function. He is quite right—that is why I was able to persuade my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to retain the designation function.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, made a great speech but seemed to have missed the point that his noble friend had saved the designation function. It will carry on, as requested by my noble friend Lord Cormack. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what the difference was between the RHC and the Science Museum Group. It is not just about the costs but about improving efficiency and effectiveness.

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, will feel free to withdraw his amendment and that the House will agree my order.

Cycling: Infrastructure

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, following on from the previous question, is the Minister not concerned that the accident rate for cyclists is increasing alarmingly, especially in London? Cyclists have a particular problem in coping with large roundabouts where there are no regulated lanes. Several of the deaths have occurred at such roundabouts. Why do the Government not take up the programme that the Times has launched, “Cities fit for cycling”, in which it says that in order to get dedicated cycle lanes and improve our safety record we need £100 million a year spent on cycling?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we are paying close attention to the Times campaign for the very reasons that the noble Lord points out. This is of course a Question about the Highways Agency, which has a range of local network management schemes to make improvements where cycle routes cross the strategic route network or there are segregation problems.

Roads: Roadworks

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not convinced that there is the problem that the noble Lord describes. With the permit system, the contractor has to tell the local authority when the work should be completed. If it is not completed on time, the local authority can impose overrun charges. However, I will take this up with my officials and make sure that there is not an unresolved problem.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, something is wrong in the state of Denmark and on the roads of Britain, too. The noble Earl has identified the virtues of the legislation passed in 1999 and 2004. Utilities are meant to notify, and to be subject to penalties, if they do not complete the work in time. However, statistics show that road congestion due to roadworks is costing £2 billion a year. What on earth is going wrong with enforcement in this area?

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his measured and eloquent explanation of the purpose and effect of his amendments in this group. The noble Lord touched on London airports and I am grateful for his wise decision to adhere to the subject of the Bill in his various amendments and resist the temptation to table an amendment about Heathrow airport. However, I have some difficulty with his amendments.

I urge noble Lords to consider the merits of the amendments that the Government have tabled to address the specific concern of the impact of the airport economic regulatory regime on the environment. Amendments 2 and 8 seek to amend the Government’s amendments, which themselves add an environmental supplementary duty for the CAA and the Secretary of State in respect of their airport economic regulatory functions. The Government have broadly proposed a duty such that the CAA and the Secretary of State have regard to,

“the desirability of each holder of a licence … being able to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects”.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, if he reads my initial comments I think it will answer the question that he was posing. If it does not and there is more I can add, I will obviously write to noble Lords but I am confident in my position.

The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, seek to change the wording slightly so that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard to the “need to secure that” a licence holder is,

“able to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects”.

I am grateful to the noble Lords for tabling these amendments as it provides the opportunity to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate their environmental impacts and those of activities associated with them, where to do so furthers the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport operation services.

It is crucial that airport operators, whether or not they are subject to economic regulation, should be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. This is, without doubt, something this Government support. There was a concern frequently raised in the House of Commons, as well as in Grand Committee. However, it is crucial that obligations should not be put on some airports but not on others, depending on their economic regulatory status. Our position is that a licensed airport operator should not be unable to recover through the regulatory settlement costs arising from undertaking environmental investment where an unregulated competitive airport would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes. After all, the overall aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would occur in a competitive market.

Therefore, it is my belief that environmental investment that is in passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services should be capable of being included in an airports regulatory settlement. In answer to the detailed question asked by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, I would prefer to write to him, but I suspect that my answer will hinge on the point that this part of the Bill is concerned with the regulation of airports, not of airlines and aircraft. If noble Lords want to check up, they should carefully read my letter. In answer to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, we believe that the government amendments are clear. I hope that noble Lords will agree that Amendment 1 goes to the heart of their concerns and that these further changes are unnecessary. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I apologise to the House if I was rather long-winded in the introduction, but as I was slow to start, I therefore hope to be succinct to finish. The debate has clarified, even if I did not succeed in doing so, exactly the issue at stake. Let me make it absolutely clear that we are not asking for the CAA, as an economic regulator, to have any other powers that other economic regulators, such as Ofwat or Ofgas, enjoy. We are merely pressing the Government to show proper concern for the environment. I praised the Minister for the extent to which he has moved down that path, but I am as dissatisfied as other Members of the House with the word desirability because, in legislative terms, that does not look like an expression of the will to get things done. There is no point in enjoining the CAA to do things, encouraging it to do so or hoping that it will; it is a serious body with serious functions to carry out, and it will do what is established in statute for it to do. We need to be precise about—

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is very insistent and persuasive. He is clearly convinced that his amendments will improve the Bill. My Bill team manager will probably kill me, but I can accept Amendment 2 and Amendment 8, which is consequential on Amendment 2. Both these amendments amend Amendment 1, but I would like to make it clear that only Amendment 8 is consequential.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am astonishingly grateful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, is nothing if not persistent in his position with regard to GBA. We of course listened very carefully to what he had to say in Committee. I must say that it is an interesting situation where the Minister is not prepared to countenance amendments which would have given the responsibility to the CAA, but he will accept amendments that would take it a notch higher to the Secretary of State. I imagine that the Minister will have a rejoinder to that.

It would help the House if we were given a perspective on the dimensions of GBA and its impact on airports. The only figure that we have had quoted this afternoon in terms of capacity was when the Minister adumbrated that Heathrow is very close to 98% or 99% capacity, a figure that chills all of us when we think about the demands on the airport. I do not know what percentage of that is GBA and I would be grateful if the Minister, when he discusses this, would give us some perspective on this issue.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Rotherwick for tabling these amendments and I admire his dedication to general aviation. General and business aviation are both important parts of the broader aviation industry. My noble friend is entirely free to regroup his amendments, but I have to apologise to the House if I do not quite manage to match my remarks to his amendments, although I am confident that, taken together, my remarks will cover most of my noble friend’s points.

I understand that the intention of my noble friend is to provide for a general and business aviation champion at the Department for Transport. However, having carefully considered the impact of these amendments, I cannot accept them as I do not believe that they deliver this intention.

As your Lordships are aware, the clear focus of Chapter 1 is on the economic regulation of a few major airports, presently Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. At these large international airports there is very little general and business aviation activity. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, asked me for some numbers so it may be helpful to illustrate this with data from the Civil Aviation Authority. In June of this year, general aviation represented less than 1% of total aircraft movements at Heathrow; at Gatwick, less than 2%; Stansted had more, at 8%. The overwhelming majority of flights from these three airports are commercial air transport. Furthermore, when we consider the relatively small number of people involved in a general aviation flight, as opposed to a commercial flight, the actual percentage in terms of people affected is far smaller.

That is not to say that general aviation should be ignored. I ask noble Lords to consider Clause 69, which defines “air transport service” as,

“a service for the carriage by air of passengers or cargo”.

Thus, business aviation, and indeed most flights with multiple occupants using a regulated airport, are already covered in the Bill. As such, there is no need to make a specific reference to general and business aviation.

Although I appreciate my noble friend’s desire to see the interests of general and business aviation represented, we must look at the broader picture. Heathrow is the busiest airport in Europe. Gatwick and Stansted together account for a third of aircraft movements in the whole of the London area. These are immensely busy airports. Realistically, we must prioritise the tens of thousands of commercial airliners landing at these airports every month. As your Lordships will appreciate, it has always been a clear policy aim of this Bill to put passengers and cargo owners first in the regulation of our major airports. The Bill delivers this through clear and concise duties, focused on passengers and owners of cargo, for both the Secretary of State and the CAA. The amendments proposed here would ultimately undermine this aim while, as I have demonstrated, delivering limited benefit to those it focuses on.

My noble friend Lord Rotherwick asked about EC resolution 2008/2134. The Government welcome the resolution and are broadly supportive. Moreover, in its present form the resolution represents a high-level direction of policy. We await concrete proposals from the Commission and are keen to see movement soon. At present the resolution is not legally binding and as a caveat I must add that many of its recommendations are not directly appropriate to the UK because the vast majority of our airfields are in private ownership, as I am sure my noble friend recognises. However, this is not the right vehicle to address these concerns.

My noble friend’s Amendment 6 concerns a change to the Secretary of State’s duties. I must point out that the Secretary of State has comparatively few functions in Part 1 of this Bill. As your Lordships are aware, this is very much a conscious decision of the Government to remove central government involvement from the regulatory process. The Secretary of State’s role is limited to just three distinct functions to which these duties apply: first, some of the Secretary of State’s regulation-making powers in Chapters 1 and 3 of the Bill; secondly, the issuing of guidance to the CAA which the CAA must have regard to; and finally, notifying the CAA of the international obligations of the United Kingdom.

I acknowledge the intent of Amendment 11 in obliging the preparation and publishing of a statement of policy, but the limited nature of the Secretary of State’s role means that requisite consultation before the exercise of certain powers should meet this point. A statutory requirement in this context would be disproportionate.

I am sure that if my noble friend had had more time he would have sought equivalent amendments to the CAA’s general duties. Clearly, amending the Secretary of State’s duties without making corresponding amendments to the CAA’s duties could create undesirable consequences; for example, there may be conflicts where the Secretary of State issues guidance to the CAA.

Regardless of whether or not the amendments achieve what my noble friend intends them to achieve, I reiterate the Government’s position that this is not the right vehicle to address my noble friend’s concerns. For all airports where demand is higher than capacity for finite take-off and landing slots, this is generally reflected in the landing fees charged. In a competitive market, an airport operator is likely to prefer to receive flights with large numbers of passengers over those with fewer passengers where this enhances its profits. This is a further policy reason not to pay special regard to general and business aviation.

However, the Government recognise the valuable contribution of the general and business aviation sector. The CAA’s Strategic Review of General Aviation in 2006 estimated its contribution to the UK economy at £1.4 billion per annum. I know that my noble friend is very concerned about the retention of small airfields. I recently fulfilled an undertaking to meet with my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Transport about this important issue, and I impressed upon him the need to ensure that at some point in the future we do not wake up and find that we have too few airfields and that they are difficult to replace.

The vast majority of general and business aviation activity takes place from small airfields across the country. Chapter 1 of this Bill will not regulate the activities of these aerodromes unless they become dominant, which we believe to be extremely unlikely. I value the intentions behind these amendments, but I believe that they are not the most appropriate method of expressing them. I therefore ask that my noble friend considers withdrawing his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 17 I shall also speak to the other three amendments in this group, which broadly encompasses the issues of passenger welfare. Amendment 17 would ensure that a licence includes an obligation on the licence holder to publish annual surveys on passenger satisfaction. This would be of considerable advantage to the industry: it would encourage improved performance at airports, and it would certainly give members of the travelling public some information on the relative performance of airports. It would therefore give a basis for what we all would want to see: improvement in passenger welfare at significant airports.

We have not the slightest doubt that there is considerable pressure from the public to improve welfare at airports. That is why the Select Committee on Transport in the other place emphasised that licences should be structured so as to address passenger satisfaction. One dimension of the issue which I am sure will occasion no surprise at all for regular air travellers is the issue of satisfaction with baggage handling. We all know the distress which is caused when baggage goes astray. I remember the time that I arrived in southern Africa and discovered that my baggage had been taken off the aircraft in Kenya, just a little way away. It contained everything that I intended to employ on the trip apart from my travelling clothes. The embarrassment was considerable. Of course, we know endless stories of the difficulties that passengers have had with baggage.

There needs to be a stimulus to improve performance. A requirement on the airport to indentify its efforts in these respects is important. It is not just a question of lost baggage—we all know the inordinate delay that can also occur. Experienced travellers always allow a certain amount of additional time for the retrieval of baggage. However, when one goes to a really efficient airport which delivers the baggage almost as soon as one can get to the retrieval hall, there is a distinct comparison with those airports that seem to have endless waits before the baggage appears.

I believe that improvement is going on in our major airports. On one occasion I came back from China via Paris because I could not get a direct flight to London. I arrived at London Stansted to find that my baggage was waiting virtually as I stepped off the aircraft and went into the hall. That is such a rare experience that I felt obliged to write to the authorities at Stansted to congratulate them on that achievement and to express the hope that it would be repeated on all future occasions—some luck.

These amendments are designed to improve what we all recognise needs to be improved with the handling of airports. The other dimension of which we are all too well aware is that airports have to take some responsibility for stranded passengers. We all recall—mercifully, the memory is ebbing away a little as each month goes by—almost two years ago when for a considerable time Heathrow had thousands of passengers stranded without any help or support of any kind and through no immediate fault of the airport in terms of the climatic conditions. However, it was subsequently identified that the problems lay with the treatment of the aircraft on the ground and the de-icing aspect. We know that there has been heavy investment to improve the situation following that event and that Heathrow should be congratulated on taking that action.

We need to keep up a standard of expectation that reduces the consequences of delay on passengers who otherwise, as has happened in the past, are left in the most unpleasant circumstances and bereft of any indication of what they are meant to do or how they should cope with their circumstances. Even if they could take action themselves, they have no information on which to work.

For all those reasons, passenger welfare is an important part of this Bill. Our amendments are designed to strengthen the Bill in respect of that important feature. I beg to move.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amusing and thorough explanation of the reasons behind his amendments. I absolutely agree with him that the issue of lost baggage is extremely important. He observed that some airports are better than others.

If your Lordships will bear with me, I should like, first, to speak to Amendments 17, 18 and 19 to Clause 18, on licence conditions, and, secondly, to Amendment 57 to Clause 83, on the provision of information for the benefit of passengers and cargo owners. I can appreciate why the noble Lord wishes to discuss these amendments in a group as they all concern the undoubtedly important matter of passenger welfare but I also believe that there is good reason for speaking to them individually so that particular aspects of the amendments may be considered in full.

I am aware that amendments similar to Amendments 17, 18 and 19 were debated in the other place and I am grateful to have the opportunity to return to them today. I do not think that it can be denied that this Bill already recognises the importance of passengers and their interests. Indeed, this is enshrined in the primary duty which states that the CAA must carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services in the provision of airport operation services.

As users of air transport services, passengers will clearly be at the heart of the CAA’s considerations. There can be no doubt that passengers desire and deserve efficient baggage handling services when they travel by air or that, when faced with delays, they are not left without advice and help where appropriate.

The experience of recent years has also demonstrated how vital it is that all airports prepare effectively for potential disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about the disruption from snow a couple of years ago. When I visited Gatwick and saw the lines of gleaming snow-clearing machinery and they told me how quickly they could clear the runways, I was quite confident that the last winter would be a mild one—and that is what happened.

What is clear is that the aviation sector as a whole needs to have effective means to deal with passenger welfare during disruption of services. However, one key purpose of the Bill is to provide the CAA as an independent regulator with the discretion and flexibility to deliver targeted and proportionate licences, containing conditions which it considers requisite after undertaking appropriate consultation. So while I can very much understand and empathise with the sentiment behind noble Lords’ amendments, I am unable to recommend putting them into the Bill.

These three amendments seek to include a requirement in Clause 18 that the CAA should be required to include specified matters in licence conditions. Under the clause, the CAA is empowered to impose licence conditions consistent with its Clause 1 duties, which go beyond matters related to the abuse of substantial market power. Therefore, the CAA will have the power to include licence conditions addressing the matters raised in these amendments when to do so furthers the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport operation services. Obviously, losing baggage clearly comes into that. However, what should be included in a licence will always be fact specific and will change over time. Therefore, I do not believe that introducing provisions as to express conditions would be appropriate.

Clause 18 provides the CAA with flexibility regarding if and how licence conditions should be included. If we were to use this Bill to set in stone certain points in licences, this would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities. I do not think it appropriate that government should determine what present and future passengers are most concerned about or what obligations should be included by the CAA in specific licences. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing needs and concerns of passengers. If we were to accept these amendments, this would oblige the CAA to give greater weight to these factors than other matters that might become equally or more important to passengers in future.

I would also seek to reassure noble Lords that they can be confident that the CAA would use the new licensing powers under the Bill to focus on matters such as operational resilience and passenger welfare in the event of extreme disruption. At the request of the Department for Transport, the CAA in January this year published an indicative licence which includes provisions on operational resilience. The proposals contained in condition 7 of this indicative licence would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and to use its best endeavours to minimise detriment to passengers arising from disruption. It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on, and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan, setting out how it will secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder is then obliged to comply with commitments it has made in its resilience plan. In drafting this indicative licence, the CAA sought initial views from industry. Once the Bill is enacted, the CAA will begin to consult on proposed licence conditions for each airport that will be subject to regulation. This process will involve consideration of the extent to which it is necessary or expedient to include conditions in the licence regarding operational resilience and other matters such as passenger welfare.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I can move this amendment with some brevity. We have discussed the issue before, and I think that I can anticipate that the Government will have a constructive response. The issue is well known. For Sikhs in this country, security at airports can prove a great embarrassment if there is a request for them to have their turbans examined or if interference occurs with their headwear. It is not just Sikhs who have this anxiety, but we are more conscious of the Sikh position because of their numbers in this country, and because we had some practice on the issue of how to adjust the law to the particular religious position of Sikhs when we debated the compulsory wearing of motorcycle helmets back in the 1960s. The issue is serious. It was particularly serious because it appeared that the European Community regulations insisted that airports should conduct the kind of search that was causing real difficulty. I understand that there may have been some advancement on that front with regard to technology in relation to the searching of headgear. I am merely presenting this amendment to give the Minister an opportunity to give some reassurance.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I fully agree with the noble Lord that we all want to ensure that passengers are treated with respect and dignity at all points during their journey through the airport, irrespective of creed. I hope that I can reassure noble Lords by explaining that what this amendment is designed to achieve is already covered by the Bill.

Airports are required by European and domestic rules to undertake security checks on all passengers and it is the responsibility of airports to ensure that their customers are treated with respect and dignity. Clause 80 of the Bill inserts new Sections 21H and 21I into the Aviation Security Act 1982. New Section 21I requires the CAA to provide such aviation security advice and assistance to the persons listed in subsection (3) of that new section, including, for example, the,

“managers of aerodromes in the United Kingdom”,

as the CAA considers appropriate.

In giving such advice and assistance the CAA has to have regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies—which, broadly, are the protection of civil aviation against acts of violence. Therefore, if the CAA considered it appropriate, having regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies, it could provide advice and assistance about maintaining the dignity of passengers wearing religious clothing when subject to security checks. I know that some passengers may worry about security checks and feel uncomfortable at being subjected to security searches. That may be a problem more generally as well.

However, noble Lords will understand that such searches are essential if security is to be maintained in the face of a real and continuing threat from terrorist groups that seek to do us harm. In his opening comments the noble Lord recognised that problem.

Noble Lords will know, I am sure, that each passenger departing from a UK airport undergoes standard security processes irrespective of their age, gender or ethnic background. These checks ensure that they are not carrying articles prohibited from the security-restricted area or on to the aircraft.

Security staff are trained to recognise that some passengers may have particular concerns about being searched, particularly about searches of some religious clothing, for example those from the Sikh community who wear turbans. A problem emerged in April 2010 when new EU rules came into force on headgear searches which required a physical hand search to be carried out in relation to turbans. Physical contact with the turban causes hurt and offence to Sikhs. My right honourable friend the former Secretary of State for Transport acted swiftly and advised airports to continue with the method used prior to April 2010, which mainly involved hand-held metal detectors, while consideration was given to how best to resolve the concerns expressed by the Sikh community.

After intensive work, a pilot project was put together in a very short time and with the assistance of members of the Sikh community. At the 31 UK airports participating in the trial, through which approximately 93% of all passengers travel, security staff use explosive-trace detection equipment combined with hand-held metal detection equipment to screen the headgear of those passengers and staff that either activate the walk-through metal detector or are chosen at random for a security search.

The UK has submitted three reports on the trial to the European Commission and has made various presentations explaining our test methodology and trial results. This method of searching headgear will continue to be used at participating UK airports as a continuing EC-approved trial while the necessary changes to EC regulation are made.

Progress has been made, which I hope will reassure the noble Lord, and I expect that that progress will continue. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, after raising this very important issue, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that I have never detected any prejudice in the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham.

Your Lordships will recall that during a debate in Grand Committee on 4 July I offered noble Lords a briefing on the Government’s plans in this area. That briefing took place on 11 October, and I hope that noble Lords found it informative. It is much better to be briefed by the experts in the subject rather than to be briefed by the Minister whose duty it is to articulate the policy behind the subject and, most importantly, to accept collective responsibility for that policy. The Government’s priority at all times is to ensure high levels of aviation security in the UK. The proposed new approach is intended to give operators greater flexibility and responsibility to design security processes that deliver specified security outcomes, with greater emphasis placed on the needs of the passengers. It is consistency of outcome that is important, not consistency of process.

A similar approach has been taken in aviation safety regulation. Modernisation would be achieved by introducing the use of security management systems—SeMS—by industry and a regulatory regime that is more outcome-focused and risk-based, the so-called OFRB. SeMS is a systematic approach to managing security aimed at embedding security in the day-to-day activities of the organisation. Therefore, in the summer we started a pilot at London City Airport in which the operator will develop the SeMS approach and in so doing create an enhanced internal security culture. Once this and further pilots have been concluded and we are satisfied that the SeMS framework is sufficiently robust we shall look to roll it out generally across the industry. This will provide a sound basis for the design and development of the OFRB regime.

The proposed reforms represent a significant change in the approach to the regulation of aviation security both for the industry and the regulator. We have therefore decided to take an incremental approach to reform to ensure that the UK’s high level of aviation security is ensured at all times. This incremental approach also aligns well with the Government’s intention to embed in industry a culture of continuous improvement of the UK’s aviation security regime, as has been the case for aviation safety. Industry has expressed strong support for moving away from the current highly centralised and prescriptive regime, but recognises that the proposed reforms will take some time to develop and implement.

On 26 June, the DfT published its response to a consultation on reforming the regulatory regime for aviation security. Responses to the consultation brought out that the move to a full OFRB regime needs to be undertaken gradually. Industry will need time to adjust to the new oversight approach rather than the current direct-and-inspect method of regulation. Many organisations have commented that the full benefits of OFRB, in particular flexibility for operators in the design of security processes, require changes to the highly prescriptive European legislation which specifies the common basic standards for aviation security. We will be using the SeMS pilots to build the evidence base necessary to engage with our European partners and to make the case for change.

Accordingly, the move to OFRB will not be a single big change but a continuing one. This is also necessary as there are some 1,000 industry entities in the UK that are directed to implement aviation security measures, and it would not be feasible, or sensible, for them all to move to OFRB at once. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that Parliament needs to be clear about what is happening. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will continue to keep Parliament informed as we develop, pilot and implement the new regime over the coming years. I hope that the House will support the aims of this reform and be assured that the Government are taking an evolutionary approach in order to ensure that the high levels of aviation security are maintained at all times. I am sure that that is what the House would want. With that comfort, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I very much respect the Minister’s expression of caution on how the new scheme is to be rolled out. I quite understand that it will be done in a slow rollout, as the success of one section can be built on by the next. This matter is of great concern to Parliament, but I am not sure of the process by which Members will be able to appraise the issue. We all know the difficulties surrounding security matters—after all, security leads to some very significant institutions in the state, and we all appreciate that limited knowledge is made available. Parliament has to be reassured about this because the scheme is of such importance. Of course I shall withdraw the amendment but I warn the Minister that Ministers and the officials concerned will have their work cut out to present the issues in a way that enables parliamentarians to form an effective judgment on the success of the development. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we began our deliberations today with the Minister making a response which greatly cheered the Opposition. I was going to return that sentiment by indicating how much I appreciated this government amendment. However, the Minister’s life, of course, never runs smooth. Questions have been addressed to him about the role of the CAA in an important area and he must address his mind to them.

Having accepted that he must tackle those issues in his reply, the Opposition very much welcome the government amendment. We had substantive discussions in Committee about these issues. The Minister said that he would take the issues away and come back with some proposal. This is an excellent proposal, which will guarantee that the efficiency of the CAA will be subject to scrutiny and—more than scrutiny—to prompting, whether it be from the Secretary of State, or the Secretary of State after prompting from Members of the Cross Benches in this House.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I respond to the noble Countess’s point about cabin air quality. First, I have full confidence in the advice that officials have given me, and everything that they have done has been in accordance with my intent. However, I agree that it was unfortunate that official letters from officials were not personally addressed to the addressees. I accept that point.

The noble Countess and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will recognise that they have raised issues slightly wide of the amendment. However, I will write to them. I have already answered Questions for Written Answer on the health and safety issue, but I will gladly repeat that information in a letter to the noble Countess.

Disabled People: Blue Badge Scheme

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I should make it clear that the blue badge scheme has no effect off road on private land. However, supermarkets are bound by the provisions of the Equality Act and need to provide disabled parking bays. I am quite confident that a supermarket will take into consideration that a blue badge is on display and I would imagine that most responsible supermarkets would do their best to avoid abuse of disabled parking spaces because it is a morally bankrupt thing to do.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister has adduced two reasons for why there may be improvements to the blue badge scheme. The first is that it may reduce fraud, which we would all welcome. The second, which I think much of the House would be very doubtful about, is that doctors have been too lenient in the past and that it is best if they are kept at some distance from the issue. In that case, what estimate has the department made of the reduction that is likely to occur in the number of blue badges issued?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in future, the number of blue badges to be issued will depend on the results of the consultation and on what decision Ministers make. Our problem is that the passported benefit is from the personal independence payment rather than the higher rate mobility component of the disability living allowance. That is going to be a different system. It is bound to produce a variation but we do not know exactly what that variation will be. Another difficulty is that the data sets are quite poor, so it is difficult to assess what the outcome will be.

Government: Cars

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the reason for that was in one of the very first answers I gave—that the motor industry supply chain is very much international. Another point to remember about government procurement is that we are bound by the European procurement rules, which restrict our course of action. However, we are 50:50 British and foreign in the fleet.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, an undoubtedly British car is the London taxi, which is symbolic of everything London stands for in terms of transport. The company Manganese Bronze is in very serious trouble, to the extent that 400 taxis have been withdrawn because of steering difficulties and the firm is not able to manufacture any others. This is extremely serious as far as the London taxi service is concerned, which is of course valued by very large numbers of people. Has the department begun thinking about the answers to those problems?

Isles of Scilly: Helicopter Services

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we could make a public service obligation if the market failed. The market has not yet failed. In addition, there would have to be a competitive bidding process. We do not want to interfere at this point because we want to see whether there will be a commercial solution to the problem.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister has given some encouraging news about the increase in services, but he will appreciate that the House is still greatly exercised about communication with the Scilly Isles, particularly during winter. If we find that the Scilly Isles are effectively cut off for a number of days in winter, I hope that the Minister will return to this issue and take some action.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker takes these matters very seriously and is on the case.

Railways: Franchises

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I wish to ask the Question of which my noble friend the shadow Leader of the House has given private notice.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, I refer to the answer that I gave the House yesterday. The Secretary of State has asked Sam Laidlaw to look into the west coast procurement process with the support of independent advice. This review is due to provide findings by the end of October and it would be premature to speculate on them. A second review will examine the implications for the wider franchising programme. Both reviews will be published reports. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, yesterday, if there are any questions about the thoroughness and integrity of Sam Laidlaw’s inquiry, I shall be happy to debate these when his findings are made public. It is in the interests of the taxpayer that the review is conducted swiftly and thoroughly, and I have every confidence that the Laidlaw review will uncover exactly what went wrong and why.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the question asked by my noble friend Lord Adonis yesterday, to which the Minister referred, indicated that these reviews are being carried out by officials in the department that is in the middle of this debacle, and they will inevitably involve the conduct of senior officials, including probably the Permanent Secretary, and Ministers. Therefore, how can they be carried out effectively by junior Ministers? Furthermore, how can the Minister justify the point that was addressed to him in another question yesterday? Ministers received warning of flaws in the franchise process on 10 August, a month before both the Secretary of State and the Minister of State were somewhat surprisingly reallocated to departments far away from transport.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked how Sam Laidlaw and Richard Brown can perform their duties. The answer is that they will do so with integrity, and I am sure that the noble Lord is not suggesting that they are unable to do that. He also suggested that officials have acted in bad faith. I can assure the House that there is no evidence whatever of officials having acted in bad faith. It is a serious mistake but there is no evidence of bad faith.

Railways: Franchises

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 9th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is a little early for me to answer in that much detail, but the process for the western region is being paused. However, the difficulty, of course, is with the west coast main line franchise.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House should congratulate the noble Earl on being one of two junior Ministers in the department who have survived. Is it not the case that the other Ministers who presided over this debacle scuttled just before the news broke, thereby denying the absolutely fundamental principle of parliamentary democracy that the buck stops with Ministers?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that was a good try. We will have to see what the reports come out with.

Energy: Biofuels

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not know what research has been commissioned but I would like to inform the House of one of the difficulties with biofuels, which is some of the complex effects of indirect land use change. For instance, if you start using tallow as a biofuel then the use of certain types of tallow could increase the demand for palm oil, which could have effects on land use change far away from the United Kingdom. It is a complicated area. There is research into understanding this, but I am not sure what research the Government are directly commissioning.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, will the Government consider doing what several other European Governments are doing and separate bioethanol and biodiesel in the RTF obligation, thereby offering the possibility of avoiding exactly the problem he identified regarding what might suit large traders and significant commerce as well as the small businesses providing this very important service at a more local level?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the danger, which we are drifting into, is providing state support for small businesses. We must provide the regime with the incentive from the renewable transport fuel obligation, but we must be careful not to provide state aid to certain types of businesses.

Crime: Drink-driving

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the only thing that my department is concerned about is saving lives by having an effective policy. That means correctly allocating resources and addressing the most serious problem, which is persistent unregulated drinkers who consistently flout the law and drive with very high blood-alcohol levels.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the noble Lord has referred to the report of Sir Peter North. He stated that he thought that, if the limit were lowered from 80 milligrams to 50 milligrams, 168 deaths a year would be saved by such action. Surely, that is a compelling argument for the Government to consider.

Earl Attlee: My Lords, it would not be if it diverted police resources from the much more serious problem of those who pay no regard whatever to the law.

Aviation: Policy

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can confirm that I have received numerous e-mails on this particular subject, and I will be very surprised indeed if the noble Countess does not pursue the matter vigorously on Report. I am looking forward to the debate.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is not the Government’s policy since coming to office one just of dither and delay? They have taken one decision—to abandon the third runway proposal at Heathrow—but have taken no other constructive position at all. Is it not about time that the Government stopped looking for the long grass, or the long Recess, in which to run for cover on this issue, and for the Minister to say that by next spring—three years after this Government came to power—they might have some proposals to put before the nation? It is quite scandalous.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is not quite right to say that we have done nothing about Heathrow. First, we introduced the operational freedoms that will make it easier for Heathrow to recover from any disruption during the day without having any more unscheduled night flights. In addition, we have just announced the western rail access to Heathrow, so the argument that we have done nothing is not a good one.

Railways: Electrification

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would hope that the party opposite, if in power, would have carried on with the process of giving us a railway system that is fit for the people of the United Kingdom

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the “party opposite”, of course, produced the plans and had commitments for half the money which is to be expended on these proposals by this Government, expenditure which did not take place immediately after the election because the Government themselves induced the delay. Of course, we welcome the Government’s intention to make progress on electrification. Although the noble Earl referred in glowing terms to the HS2 project, we also note that there is no commitment in these proposals to the expenditure for HS2 and we wonder whether in fact the Government are running a little scared of their Back-Benchers, as they have been recently in the other House.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure noble Lords that the Government are not running scared of their Back-Benchers in respect of HS2. I would also remind the noble Lord that we are currently in CP4, which was devised by the previous Administration. The announcement is for CP5.

Olympic Games 2012: Traffic

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suggest that that is an extremely unwise course of action. The policing of the Olympic lanes—the Games lanes—is similar to bus lanes. If the noble Lord thinks he can use a bus lane with impunity then he can try the Olympic lanes, but it is not something that I would recommend.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I find myself agreeing with the Minister that, of course, London has to offer a welcome to visitors from all over the world to these Games. The lanes are essential to the smooth running of the Games. Of course, there is already sufficient confusion and long tailbacks have been established on some routes and the lanes are not even in action yet. We must make every effort to make things clear to the public. Would the Minister strengthen the point that he made a moment ago that no privileged access to the ZiL lanes, apart from for Olympic officials, will be permitted and certainly not for Ministers of the Crown?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that Ministers of the Crown do not have any privileges in regard to the use of the Games lanes, with the exception of when advised to use them by the security services, and that will apply to very few Ministers indeed.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 9th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

There is no appropriate time like the present, so I will withdraw the amendment after I have given a few words of thanks, first, to those Members of the Committee who support the clear need for innovation. I also think that we needed reassurance from the Minister that the Bill provides sufficient powers and incentives to ensure that the limited part that the CAA can play in its role with regard to the industry is played as fully as possible against the very challenging objectives that we all need to meet through change, particularly those in aircraft engine design. However, I was extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, for indicating that there are other aspects of technology that could be of great significance to the industry, to which the Minister also paid due regard.

I accept entirely what my noble friend Lord Soley said about government incentives for the development of new technologies in motor cars, and the licence system is a very effective weapon in those terms. But, as I understand it, neither the vehicles that airports use for towing things around nor their emissions are in any way subject to licence. Therefore, no incentive can be placed on the industry as regards those traction engines for a fresh, new design through the way in which they are licensed. I hope that the Minister has taken on board that we need some imaginative strategies. In fact, he has taken it on board because he is going to tell me about it.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has suggested that ground vehicles at airports are not subject to regulations. I expect that I will be writing to him to point out that even non-road vehicles have limits on their emissions. There are complex and quite tough regulations to ensure that any ground vehicle reduces its emissions as much as possible. Even a vehicle that is not an on-road vehicle is still subject to regulations on emissions. I think that my letter will go into that.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am grateful for that reassurance but it raises an obvious question. Some airports have taken this issue very seriously already but others have not. I therefore ask the Minister not to tell me how these machines can be improved but rather what is the incentive, compulsion or challenge given to those airports which are not improving to ensure that they do so in the future. That is the nub of this issue with regard to emissions on the ground and at airports.

Without any doubt, the biggest challenge is to the aircraft manufacturing industry. As the Minister indicated in his response, we are not negligible players in these terms and already have had one or two interesting innovations in which we have shown ourselves to be world beating. With this amendment, I was merely seeking to get reassurance from the Minister that he took these issues seriously and that the Bill empowers people sufficiently to give their spur to this development in any way that they can, while always bearing in mind the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, that all new technology is more expensive than that which it replaces if it is going to do a more challenging job unless we have real breakthroughs in terms of design, which from time to time in certain areas occur. In the past, the aviation industry has not failed us in that respect, but the challenges ahead are obviously very intensive. With the Minister’s largely constructive reply, I am happy to withdraw the amendment, as this is a timely moment to do so.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have only one brief comment to make, one which I never thought I would make in Parliament or elsewhere. Oh the joys of Opposition for the Minister to reply.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, before turning to the detail of the points made, I must emphasise the importance of the clause that the amendment would alter. My noble friend Lord Trefgarne mentioned the congestion charge. I have been caught by it but I never dared to appeal. I just paid up. That might be because I knew that I was wrong.

The noble Lord talked about the higher success rate if you bring your lawyer. It may be that the appellant brings his lawyer because he is certain that he is right, so not surprisingly he wins his case. The noble Lord also asked about the appeal process. If someone who has been issued a fixed penalty notice is unhappy about that, he can take it to court in exactly the same way as a motorist can take a matter to court—like the McCaffrey case.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I hear what the noble Countess says, and I heard that case deployed at the time when we met previously on this issue. Overall, though, my experience is that, whatever risks to livelihood, people have the greatest concern about threats to their long-term health and it is therefore not the case that they conceal these issues. The issue with the asbestos problem was not that people were concealing the impact; what was not being substantiated sufficiently was cause and effect, which is exactly the issue here.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. On the first amendment tabled by the noble Countess, airline pilots and crew members are already protected in this area by Part IVA of the Employment Rights Act 1996, which was inserted by Sections 1 to 2 of the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, both as workers who can make a protected disclosure to their employer and as individuals who can make one to the CAA. The CAA is a prescribed person for the purposes of that Act, which means that it can receive “protected disclosures” or whistleblowing from the civil aviation industry.

As for awareness of these rights, the CAA has a published statement on its website in relation to its whistleblowing policy which makes it clear that it will investigate all complaints in an appropriate manner, endeavouring to maintain confidentiality at all times.

I add for the sake of completeness that, as well as the protection afforded by the Act, the CAA has long established processes in place for incident-reporting and to safeguard confidentiality. The chief of these is the mandatory occurrence reporting scheme established in 1976. Consequently, the noble Countess’s amendment refers to protections already in place and is unnecessary.

The second amendment proposed by the noble Countess is also unnecessary. However, it also has an important and possibly unintended consequence which makes it unacceptable. The amendment would substitute the existing provision in Section 60 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 with the wording that it proposes. This would be a backward step because it would cause the removal of the power which enables an Air Navigation Order to contain provisions,

“for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft”.

That power has already been used.

The duty on the Secretary of State of,

“organising, carrying out and encouraging measures for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft”,

now in Section 1(1A) of the 1982 Act, as inserted by Section 8(2) of the Civil Aviation Act 2006, was a widely welcomed reform. The existing Section 60 power is part of delivering that general duty. We do not want to lose that. I suspect that the noble Countess does not want to lose that either, but the effect, perhaps unintentional, of this amendment would be to remove the relevant subsection of Section 60. That is why I regard it as a backward step and why it is opposed by the Government.

There is also a second objection to this amendment. The matters listed in it are a mixture of UK legislation, European legislation and European Aviation Safety Agency technical specifications. They are already enforced by the appropriate regulators in relation to the protections that they give, including safety, technical integrity of aircraft and working conditions for those in the aviation industry.

The principal enforcement agencies are the Civil Aviation Authority and the Health and Safety Executive, and there is a memorandum of understanding, referred to by the noble Countess, between these two bodies setting out their respective responsibilities for enforcing occupational health and safety in relation to public transport aircraft while on the ground and in the air. It was drawn up by the two organisations with the aim of avoiding duplication of effort in the areas of overlapping mutual interest. There is therefore no need specifically to provide for the enforcement of these in an ANO.

The noble Countess suggested that the CAA was complacent. This is far from being the case. Successive UK Governments have investigated the matter thoroughly. The UK has an excellent safety record in aviation which we would not wish to lose by being complacent. Allegations of ill-health caused by cabin air have not been upheld by research. The main research study, published by Cranfield University in May last year, found no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines.

However, I am well aware that the noble Countess has very strong views about the standards and guidelines. Levels observed in the flights that formed part of the study were comparable to those typically experienced in domestic settings. The department has now formally referred the published research studies to the Committee on Toxicity, the independent adviser to the Government on matters concerning the toxicity of chemicals, for it to consider the matter.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that the Commission is in a listening mode, because otherwise it could be storing up problems for itself in future.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response, which was encouraging. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, will recognise that, given the advanced years of many of us, we have great difficulty going through airport security without the implied suggestion that we have a submachine gun in our belt. When our belt has been taken off, the gun must be somewhere else. Having had a hip replacement a few years ago, I go through agonies at airport control. We all have to pay that price. I do not think that any of us doubt that airport security is of the greatest significance, and we all realise that some privations are attendant on it. However, some practices need to be looked at very carefully.

The Minister is assiduous in writing to us when he feels that he has not made a point absolutely explicit in a reply. I do not think that he needs to write to us on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis. Privacy will not solve the problem. The issue is not that something is being done in public; it is that someone is touching the turban. Therefore, if the same security process is followed in private as in public, the offence will be exactly the same.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I absolutely accept the point about touching the turban, but there may be some other perfectly reasonable reason why a passenger does not want to be searched in public. They may want to explain a medical condition, for instance, that it would be too embarrassing to discuss in public, but as soon as they went into a private room they would be able to explain the circumstances and have a thorough search.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, of course I know that the practice occurs; it is essential where people have enormous sensitivities that ought to be respected. However, the amendment is about Sikhs. I am merely indicating that for a Sikh, an offence conducted in private is no less an offence than if it were done in the public arena. Therefore, the issue is how we maintain our security and check the Sikh population effectively when they travel, without giving extreme offence by touching the turban.

I am grateful that the Minister indicated that we are making progress on tests that will obviate the need to touch the turban, so I hope that the problem will soon be resolved. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

I welcome these amendments, which enable us to consider an outcomes-focused, risk-based regime. I hope in responding to them to be able to allay the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. However, I am not convinced that the amendment is related to the previous one, which concerned the important matter of DfT staff being looked after on transfer. They are separate issues.

The DfT has consulted on proposals to modernise the regulatory regime for aviation security. They are designed to promote innovation and efficiency, to ensure the best possible passenger experience and to bring the regime into line with better-regulation principles. The Government’s priority at all times is to ensure high levels of aviation security in the UK. We simply cannot afford a failure.

The proposed new approach is intended to give operators greater flexibility and responsibility to design security processes that deliver specified security outcomes, with greater emphasis placed on the needs of their passengers. A similar approach has been taken in aviation safety regulation.

Modernisation would be achieved by introducing the use of security management systems, or SeMS, by industry and a regulatory regime that is more outcomes-focused and risk-based—the so-called OFRB. SeMS is a systematic approach to managing and embedding security in the day-to-day activities of an organisation. We are starting with a series of pilots in which industry operators will develop the SeMS approach and, in so doing, create an enhanced internal security culture. Once these pilots have been concluded and we are satisfied that the SeMS framework is sufficiently robust, we shall look to roll it out generally across the industry. This will provide a sound basis for the design and development of the OFRB regime.

The proposed reforms represent a significant change in the approach to the regulation of aviation security both for the industry and the regulator. We have therefore decided to take an incremental approach to reform to ensure that the UK’s high level of aviation security is maintained at all times. This incremental approach also aligns well with the Government’s intention to embed in industry a culture of continuous improvement of the UK’s aviation security regime, as has been the case for aviation safety.

Many organisations have commented that the full benefits of OFRB—in particular, flexibility for operators in the design of security processes—require changes to the highly prescriptive European legislation, which specifies common basic standards for aviation security. We will use the SeMS pilots to build the evidence base necessary to engage with our European partners and to make the case for change. This will take some time.

I say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that the move to OFRB will not be a single big change but a continuing one—it will not be sprung on stakeholders. This is also necessary because some 1,000 industry entities in the UK are directed to implement aviation security measures, and it would not be feasible or sensible for them all to move to OFRB at once.

The Secretary of State intends to take forward the reformed approach to aviation security regulation under powers in Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 by giving directions to industry operators, such as airports. In passing Part 2 of the 1982 Act, Parliament has granted the Secretary of State a power to give directions to industry for the purpose of protecting civil aviation against acts of violence. Successive Transport Secretaries, irrespective of party, have made aviation security directions that they consider necessary to protect the security of civil aviation. The Secretary of State’s direction-making powers set out in Part 2 of the 1982 Act do not require the approval of Parliament before they can come into force.

Introducing a new layer of legislative approval for the introduction of an OFRB aviation security regime could risk damaging our ability to respond swiftly to implement necessary changes to aviation security in the face of continuing and evolving threats. These amendments would mean that if the response to a new threat affected the framework of the outcomes-focused, risk-based regime, an order would be required that would be subject to the approval of both Houses. This would inevitably take time, even with the most efficient business managers in charge of Parliament’s agenda. Your Lordships will know that it is sometimes necessary to make changes very quickly to respond to new threats, in some cases within a matter of hours.

For example, swift action, including an immediate ban on liquids, had to be taken in response to the liquid bomb plot. The plot was uncovered during the Summer Recess, and if it had been necessary to recall Parliament and have these matters debated by both Houses, it would have been impossible to respond effectively. I am sure that your Lordships will recall the printer bomb plot in October 2010, when it was necessary to place emergency restrictions on air cargo. If my right honourable friend the former Secretary of State had not been able to act quickly to ban certain consignments, we could have been left exposed to similar attacks.

Noble Lords will have seen the Written Ministerial Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State on the 26 June about the reform of the aviation security regulatory regime and the Government’s response to the preceding consultation. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will continue to keep Parliament informed as we develop, pilot and implement the new regime over the coming years. However, I hope the Committee will agree that Amendments 54 and 75 would not only be impractical but could have a damaging impact on our ability to keep passengers secure. Therefore, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw or not to move the amendments.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have a bone of contention with the Minister. I am not prepared to accept what he said about the new measures necessary to deal with the threat of the liquid bombs. Clearly effective action was taken and we all know the constraints. I can even remember the size of the cardboard box that Heathrow kindly provided for me to ensure that the baggage that I was taking to the cabin could be measured accurately. It was the least precise device that I have ever seen. Nevertheless, you cannot expect technology to appear at every point in an airport. I am not prepared to have that emergency response to a clearly individual, defined threat compared with a whole schematic change to the concept of airport security.

After all, it is the Minister who is dressing up the scheme in excellent technical language. It is he who has to take responsibility for the fact that the scheme arrived on the scene somewhat late and was not subject to scrutiny before it appeared in the legislation. It is the Minister who has to bear the responsibility for the fact that the most apparent thing to the industry about the scheme was that the costs were being transferred. We all know the driver for that, so he will not mind if there is an element of suspicion in the Committee that the issue that drives the scheme is the transfer of costs rather than the more successful implementation of a security regime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

I would not want to leave the noble Lord upset. However, first, I remind the Committee that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State retains responsibility for aviation security. None of this changes that. In addition, I would like to remind the Committee of one thing. If we were to adopt the noble Lord’s amendment, it could have unintended consequences. We might think that it would be fine; but when we wanted to change something quickly, we would come up against that most ancient law, the law of unintended consequences. We need to be extremely cautious, therefore, before we think about tying the hands of the Secretary of State and removing that flexibility that she has to give the necessary directions in respect of aviation security.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I would be the last person to want to see a reduction in the Secretary of State’s powers in this very important area, and I am not suggesting that Parliament will set out to destroy the security scheme for the aviation industry. Responsible Members of Parliament would do no such thing, of course. What we are looking for is a clearer evaluation than that presently to hand of the merits of this approach, apart from cost savings for the department. The industry will accept this grudgingly, because the costs are put upon it. It may be entirely proper that it should bear the cost. However, one would have thought that this would be presented to the industry with greater consultation than it has had.

As for Parliament, it is clear that we are all taking a great deal from the Minister on faith. I have no doubt that the concept is excellent, if it is ever clearly explained to me. However, the Minister has not taken the opportunity on this occasion to explain its merits over what we have at the present time. If he had said, “Of course, I can’t do that, because that would imply that I am giving some comparative analysis that would give information to hostile elements”, I would probably have taken that in my stride, but he did not say that.

[Earl Attlee]

Certainly not—that would be a weak argument. I can suggest, however, that if the noble Lord would like, I can organise a briefing between him and the officials who are handling this issue. We can go into it in greater detail and ensure that both of us are happy about it.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister is generous with letters that whizz round after Committee proceedings, and he is always generous in his replies, although they do not always meet the exact points. I am probably obliged to take him up on his offer of what will be an enormously illuminating occasion. However, I am not clear whether it will be of any use to other Members of the Committee, or to other Members of either House of Parliament, to know that the opposition spokesman will be a bit wiser in a few days than he is at present. The noble Lord might think that that suffices, but I do not. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister is certainly correct in saying that the extension of the ATOL scheme contained in the Bill has won the support of both sides in the other House. We also indicated at Second Reading how much we approved of this extension of the ATOL scheme. We thoroughly endorse the main objective which the Minister is seeking to achieve and are delighted to see it in the Bill. I take it that the categories that are extended will receive the ATOL certificate in the same way as all others that are part of the scheme, so that consumers will know they are contained within the scheme under the new arrangements of Amendments 63A and 63B. I am making that assumption—if the Minister nods his assent, I am reassured on that front. That is excellent news.

On the other question, I understand the point that there is no attempt to greatly extend the boundary of the scheme while seeking to preserve protection in those specific cases. I hope that that boundary is easily maintained, because that is what is being put in the legislation. We all know that there are two categories of disappointed people. There are those who did not participate in the ATOL scheme and were never therefore covered, who are utterly dismayed when things go badly wrong. There is no event in one’s normal life much worse than a holiday going badly wrong. However, if anything, it is worse to think that you are covered when you are not. As long as there is clarity at the boundary about that, I am entirely satisfied with the amendments and am delighted to see them being proposed.

[Earl Attlee]

I thank the noble Lord for his support for my amendments. I beg to move.

Transport: Road Traffic

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about what we can achieve with technology. It is particularly important for the Highways Agency to be able to measure where congestion is and then to use its variable message signs to advise motorists to seek another route. In addition, although satnav navigation systems are in their infancy, we are starting to get the full benefit from them.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that during this past year the Mayor of London has pursued a smoothing traffic flow priority, which prioritises motorists over safety? Is he further aware that pedestrian deaths are up by 33% during this period and cyclist deaths by more than 21%? I express the hope that, in answering this question, the Minister’s brief will be more secure than it was last week when he answered a question of mine on fares to and from the Scilly Isles.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident about the accuracy of this brief, but regret that during our discussions last Monday I stated that the return fare on the “Scillonian III” for Scilly Isles residents was £20.50. However, this is in fact the single fare and there may be other qualifications. I am very sorry about this, since it made my position appear stronger than it really was, to the detriment of the noble Lord’s.

The noble Lord asked me detailed questions about the management of traffic in London. He will appreciate that that is a matter for the mayor. It is disappointing that overall fatalities have increased slightly, the reasons for which we have not yet examined fully.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 2nd July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions but I am afraid that I must oppose the amendment and support the Question that these important clauses stand part of the Bill.

Inter-terminal competition may be some time off and the Bill makes no provisions about timing. However, it is important that we future-proof the legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, talked about disruption and consternation. Clearly, this would not be in the interests of passengers, and the CAA would therefore not allow such competition because it would be in conflict with its primary duty to the passengers and owners of cargo.

The noble Lord said that different airlines have different needs. He is, of course, quite right. Some airlines want to run a premium service and others want to be no-frills. However, the CAA will have to strike the balance between those differing requirements as well as replicate the effect of competition.

The Bill does not, in general, require inter-terminal competition but does accommodate the possibility. Promoting competition between terminals under the Bill would not happen if the cost implications of doing so meant that it would not benefit the passengers, again under the CAA’s primary duty. In the circumstances postulated, there is no question that the CAA would seek to require inter-terminal competition. If, however, an airport chose, say, to lease a terminal to a third party, the Bill would remain in service, and I will come back to that in a moment.

Clause 10 empowers the CAA to determine, by applying the criteria set out in Clause 9, including in cases where one or more separate entities have some form of management control over that area. Clause 11 contains provisions for the publication of operator determinations made under Clause 10 by the CAA. Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make operator determination in advance, on the basis of circumstances that may not yet have arisen.

The amendments to Clause 12 seek to remove the CAA’s powers to carry out an advance operator determination. However, before I get on to why the amendments are not desirable, I wish to reassure your Lordships on why “standard” operator determinations under Clauses 9, 10 and 11 are a necessary part of the legislation. These clauses are important for regulatory certainty, enabling a person to know whether they are the operator of an airport area for the purposes of Part 1. Otherwise, in difficult cases it will be uncertain who the operator is and who is not, and therefore who is and who is not subject to economic regulation. This means that they cannot be clear as to their legal obligations, and neither they nor their financial backers can know with certainty whether they will be subject to economic regulation.

The clause is not focused solely on the possible future scenario where intra-airport competition can be introduced. For example, it could apply where a whole airport was leased and some management functions were split between lessor and lessee. However, noble Lords have rightly pointed out that these clauses are important for ensuring that the Bill allows for the regulatory regime to work in a scenario where there are multiple operators of different airport areas at one airport—in other words, where there is inter-terminal competition. Inter-terminal competition is more likely to lead to more complex ownership arrangements.

I have already mentioned that it was a recommendation of the Competition Commission in its BAA Airports Market Investigation report of 2008 to allow for the regulatory regime to function where inter-terminal competition is present. The present legislation, the Airports Act 1986, does not allow for this possibility. If we, the Government, had not made these provisions, no doubt noble Lords would suggest that we should have done so, praying in aid the Competition Commission’s recommendations. It is important to note that these clauses do not empower the CAA to introduce inter-terminal competition; they merely ensure that if inter-terminal competition becomes a reality, the regulatory regime can accommodate the scenario.

Clause 10 empowers the CAA to make binding operator determinations on the basis of the circumstances at the time the determination is made. However, this is considered insufficient where a person wants to know whether they will comprise the “operator” in the event that they take some control over an airport area. Against this background, to allow for greater regulatory and commercial certainty, Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make advance determinations—that is, determinations on the basis of circumstances that have not yet arisen. This would include a determination that, if a lease were executed with specified terms, the lessee would or would not comprise the operator.

The first amendment would deprive the CAA of the power to make an advance operator determination. The Government cannot agree to this because it would increase regulatory uncertainty and possibly stultify commercial transactions. I therefore urge noble Lords to withdraw their opposition to the clauses.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister made the best fist that he could of a fairly weak argument. Of course, I recognise the merits of the clauses, in that he made it clear that it is important to define the operator and to know whom we are talking about. Who could possibly gainsay that proposition?

In objecting to the clause, I am not objecting to the sense that lies behind the elements within the clause to which the Minister addressed some of his remarks. I indicated that in opposing the clause I recognised this to be a fairly blunderbuss approach and that we have not refined our opposition in amendments—something that we may do in due course, perhaps on Report. However, I say to the Minister that in this general debate anxieties have been expressed across the Committee, and he has not allayed those anxieties at all, apart from—

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am delighted that the noble Lord had his anxieties allayed. They are obviously not as acute as those on this side of the Committee. In particular, if the noble Lord is all in favour of inter-terminal competition, perhaps he will ask the Minister to identify just where this is a raging success that we would want to encourage. The only specific example that we have so far is subject to considerable criticism. As the noble Lord indicated, airport operators are accurately defined in the legislation; I will not gainsay the necessity of that. None of them speaks well of future-proofing what they regard as a disadvantageous element of the Bill, which will introduce the possibility of inter-terminal competition. In particular, by putting it in the Bill in the way that they have, the Government limit parliamentary debate to secondary legislation. We know the limitations of that.

However, I seek to identify that this concept is a significant departure from how any British airport is run at present, and from how any successful airport is run elsewhere. Unless the Minister produces some evidence of how competition works to the benefit of the passenger—which he signally failed to do in his earlier contribution—the Committee will recognise that, far from my anxieties being allayed, they are more pronounced. Of course, I recognise that objecting to a clause standing part—or three clauses in this case, which is the first time that I have engaged in such an extensive operation—is something from which I shall have to resile fairly promptly. However, I do so to air a significant aspect of this debate. I say to the Minister that we are so dissatisfied with the response at this stage that he must assume that we will take this issue further on Report.

[Earl Attlee]

I am curious about the noble Lord’s attitude to the Competition Commission’s recommendation that we should provide for inter-terminal competition. Does he support that view or not?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Of course, I recognise the role of the Competition Commission and we applaud a great deal of its work. However, when it makes recommendations, one must also consider the industry’s likely response to the proposal that is being put forward. All I say is that the noble Earl has not identified any aspect of British industry that considers this to be an intelligent and sensible development. Nor is he able to identify any example from elsewhere in the world where this form of competition has redounded to the benefit of the consumer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

We will see what happens in the next reshuffle.

My honourable friend the Immigration Minister is reviewing what additional data may be published by the Home Office and shared with port operators. Meanwhile, the border force has responded to recent problems in a number of ways. It is tackling short-term peaks with a pool of trained staff, working with airports and airlines to ensure that they provide more accurate passenger manifests and flight schedules so that the border force can flexibly deploy staff at the right times and places, creating a new central control room for the border force at Heathrow that uses mobile teams for rapid deployment, and implementing new rostering and shift patterns. The border force is also working with Gatwick and Heathrow airports to improve passenger flows, using more specific measures such as e-gates and other biometric checks.

There can be no doubt that passengers want efficient baggage-handling services when they travel by air. The experience of recent years has also demonstrated how vital it is that airports prepare effectively for potential disruption. It is clear that the aviation sector as a whole needs to have effective means of dealing with passenger welfare during disruption of services. While I can therefore understand and agree with the sentiment behind these amendments and what noble Lords have said, I cannot recommend accepting them into the Bill. The text of the Bill already provides the most effective means of protecting passenger interests in relation to the matters raised.

Clause 18 and the licensing regime as a whole will give the CAA the flexibility to tailor licence conditions to the specific circumstances facing individual airports with substantial market power. This flexibility is an important means of minimising the distortions associated with regulatory intervention and ensuring that action taken by the CAA is proportionate. However, we also believe that giving the independent expert regulator flexibility and discretion in deciding the content of the licence is the most effective way to protect the interests of present and future passengers. If Parliament chooses to use this legislation to hard-code certain points in licences, it would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities. As the Minister of State said in Committee in the House of Commons, amendments such as these would make the licence system unbalanced because passengers care about a whole range of different issues. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing concerns of passengers. In 2005, who would have thought that volcanic ash would have been a major problem later on?

If we were to adopt these amendments, they would oblige the CAA to give greater weight to these factors than other matters that might become equally or more important to passengers in the future. This danger was recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. Your Lordships can be very confident that the CAA will already use the new licensing powers proposed in the Bill to focus on, for example, operational resilience and passenger welfare in the event of extreme disruption—not least because of the CAA’s Clause 1 duties, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, recognised. And why it would it not do so?

As we have discussed in Committee, in response to a request for advice from the Secretary of State, the CAA published an indicative licence in January to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of the Bill, and a copy has been sent to the House of Commons Library. At the request of the Department for Transport, the draft licence includes provisions on operational resilience. The proposals in condition 7 would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and use its best endeavours to minimise detriment to passengers arising from disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned disruption due to winter. When I visited Gatwick Airport before the most recent winter and saw all the new equipment in place, I was absolutely confident that the winter would be very mild.

It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it would secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder will then be obliged to comply with the commitments it has made in its resilience plan. The CAA sought initial views from industry in drafting the indicative licence. However, since Parliament has not yet concluded its consideration of the Bill, the CAA has not yet started to consult on proposed licence conditions for each airport that will be subject to regulation.

If the system proposed in the Bill is implemented, the CAA will consider the extent to which it is necessary or expedient to include conditions in a licence for operational resilience and other matters such as passenger welfare. The CAA expects that activities that might be expected to be part of the new licence regime would include taking into account other obligations on service quality standards, and the success of codes of conduct and voluntary arrangements being adopted by industry. Against this background we believe that putting specific requirements in the Bill on issues such as baggage handling and operational resilience could prove to be a disproportionate response that would place an unnecessary restriction on the CAA’s flexibility to develop proportionate and effective ways to address passenger concerns—and might even lead it to address the wrong ones.

In summary, the Bill provides the CAA—the body with the relevant operational expertise—after appropriate consultation, with the flexibility to determine appropriate and effective licence conditions. The amendments in this group could undermine our goal of giving the specialist regulator a flexible toolkit to protect the passenger. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who introduced significant points, to which the Minister paid due regard—about as much regard as he paid to the points that I made in my opening speech. If through the amendments in this group I had sought to introduce microscopic instructions to the CAA on what it ought to do that would limit its capacity to fulfil its duties, I would quite understand the thrust of the Minister’s response. However, the first of the three amendments to which I addressed my remarks requires publication of an annual survey. This is not desperately specific but merely indicates that it would be a very good idea if the licence holder—the airport authority—gave some account to the general public of the effectiveness of its operation.

The second amendment suggests that the licence holder should develop passenger welfare plans. That is not specific; it merely indicates that it should be incumbent on the licence holder to fulfil the obligation that apparently underpins the Bill, which is to provide a better service to passengers. The third amendment merely suggests that support is necessary and should be provided for stranded passengers at airports. There is no Member of this Committee—including the Minister—who does not agree that action must be taken in this area. The Minister went so far as to indicate that strenuous efforts had been made to ensure that the numbers of such stranded passengers would decrease. I am not sure that Gatwick has the equipment to affect the climate and make our winters milder, but I know exactly what he meant. It now has the equipment to keep aircraft manoeuvring and able to fly, whereas over the winter that caused so much distress the airports did not have that.

We are merely asking for provision to be made for stranded passengers—an objective that the Minister says he shares—and I cannot think that the actions of the Civil Aviation Authority are cabined, confined or constrained by including these amendments in the provision on how the licence is granted. However, at this stage, I accept that the Minister is not as warm about these amendments as he is about the forecast for future winters, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware that a similarly worded amendment was tabled in Committee in the House of Commons, but that related to Clause 83, on provision of:

“Information for the benefit of users of air transport services”.

The stated aim of that amendment was to close a perceived gap in the information that will be published under that clause on what passengers can expect to experience when departing or arriving at an airport, especially in relation to how long they should expect to wait to have their passport checked. The Government supported the broad intention of that amendment. Giving consumers more information on the quality of service provided by airports and airlines will help to maximise the benefits that markets deliver to passengers. However, the Minister of State ultimately resisted the amendment on the basis that the Bill already enables the CAA to require the collection and publication of information on check-in, baggage handling and security queues. He further explained that the UK border force, the authority responsible for border controls relating to arriving and departing passengers and goods, is responsible to Ministers and Parliament, and said that this is a more effective and appropriate means to hold the UK border force to account than giving the CAA power to oversee its activities.

The amendment today goes further than the previous one by seeking to prevent users from buying preferential access to check-in, security, immigration control and baggage reclaim processes. In considering the amendment, the Committee should note the distinction between check-in and baggage reclaim processes, and aviation security and border-control processes—the latter being subject to exacting standards enshrined in legislation. For example, airports are required, pursuant to international standards and EU and domestic regulatory requirements, to ensure that all passengers undergo security screening to specified levels. This is subject to monitoring and enforcement through security inspections and tests by the regulator. Legislation also requires full travel document checks to be conducted on all passengers, including all British citizens, arriving at the UK border. As the Minister of State made clear in the House of Commons, the security of our borders and the checks that need to be undertaken to protect us from those who would enter our country to do us harm are treated with paramount importance.

I am aware that the BAA runs a VIP suite scheme at Heathrow. The UK border force does not charge BAA or the VIPs any money for the provision of this service, nor does the BAA cover any border force costs. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, with full details of the number of years that these arrangements have been in place. As long as standards of security and immigration are maintained at all times and in respect of all passengers, the Government do not wish to prevent the market offering access to these services, which are tailored to the needs of passengers. However, there is no question of reduced security, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Davies.

Your Lordships will no doubt be aware that a number of airlines offer faster check-in services to premium travellers who are willing to pay a premium for the service. The Government do not wish to prevent passengers benefiting from such products. If the concern is that the purchase of preferential access to check-in or baggage control processes would be an impediment to competition, the Bill already provides the CAA with the necessary powers to address that.

In summary, aviation security and immigration processes at UK airports must comply with exacting standards that are enshrined in legislation. There is no scope for passengers to pay to avoid these processes. The Government believe that the amendment goes too far in attempting to prevent the market offering access to these and other services that are tailored to the specific needs of users. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing the amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response, although I still believe that he is failing to recognise the context in which we find ourselves. That answer might have sufficed a decade ago, but as he knows only too well, we are operating a very stringent security regime at our airports. We all know the privations that occur from time to time. We know that people have to queue for hours on end because of the necessary requirements. The Government say that it is about security and the market has the right to provide preferential treatment for some. It seems to me that the concept of security is an obligation for every citizen. I do not see why there are favoured circumstances for a few, nor do I think it is conducive to the implementation of the security requirements if people believe that there is an inherent unfairness. The noble Earl made no reference whatever to that. Of course I recognise that no payment has been made by the airport to the Home Office with regard to this. However, if people are being transferred from heavily pressed desks to facilitate entry for those who have paid a premium, one should not be at all surprised that the difficulties occurring at airports are growing acutely. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but the Minister may come to rue the day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is a minor and technical amendment and as such I do not expect it to be controversial. It seeks to make the drafting in sub-paragraph (2)(a) of paragraph 22 of Schedule 2 consistent with the rest of that paragraph. It corrects the omission of the words “information or evidence” from the phrase “matter, information or evidence”. This phrase can be found elsewhere in paragraph 22. So this amendment makes sub-paragraph (2)(a) consistent with the other provisions in paragraph 22 of Schedule 2, which delineates the circumstances in which the Competition Commission may allow new matters, information or evidence to be adduced in appeals brought before it. Paragraph 22 of Schedule 2 generally prohibits the Competition Commission from considering any matter, information or evidence in an appeal that was not in the appeal before the Civil Aviation Authority.

However, in common with other appellate jurisdictions, there are limited circumstances where, in the interests of justice, this general rule needs to be capable of being displaced. It is necessary for the power to displace this rule so as to be co-extensive with the scope of the general prohibition. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister. Try as I might, I can find nothing controversial in his amendment.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister’s worst nightmare must have been fulfilled from this opening debate—namely, because the Committee has, quite appropriately, addressed itself to what the amendment says about surface transport, and of course that then gives a wide range of exciting prospects on how we could improve surface transport. I will put my three penn’orth in if I may. Manchester Airport is very eager that the metro should be part of its facilities. It is some distance away at present. The airport is certainly prepared to face a proportion of the costs. We have heard the anxieties and proposals for the necessary improvement to surface transport to our airports expressed in very cogent terms. The danger is that that will open up a very wide-ranging discussion, as we have heard.

The Minister may have the obvious consolation, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I identified, that most of these issues cannot possibly be covered by an extension to the remit of the CAA. We are largely talking about transport projects of the greatest significance, linking our major centres of population to our airports through improvements, which are certainly necessary to all the London airports. Apart from Birmingham, which already boasts excellent rail communication and has great expectations for HS2, all airports recognise that the ease with which people can arrive at them is absolutely critical to the experience and choice of travelling by air. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, I doubt that this substantial range of transport issues is meant to be laid at the door of the CAA. I imagine that the Minister, while commenting constructively, as I hope he will, in response to Members of the Committee on ideas for improving connections, will say that this is not a matter with which we can directly charge the CAA.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as we have heard today, surface transport access is a very important concern for our major airports—not just regulated ones but non-regulated airports, too. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for enabling us to debate this topic today.

My noble friend is certainly correct to say that without good transport access, it will not be possible for our airports to maintain their strong position compared to their European counterparts, and that we must ensure that people using our airports have access to a range of options for getting to and from them. That is why the Government have put a heavy emphasis on the importance of high-quality public transport to our airports. It is one of the reasons why Thameslink will deliver considerable improvements to access at Gatwick. It is why HS2 and Crossrail will, in the future, deliver important improvements at Heathrow, and it is why the upgrade of London Underground will further enhance access to Heathrow.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw touched on the problems of the Gatwick Express. When I visited Gatwick Airport, the management certainly made that point to me very strongly.

Your Lordships will also be aware that the Government are seeking to invest in improving access to non-regulated airports through regional growth funding, including, for example, by upgrading junction 10A of the M1 near Luton and through realigning and tunnelling a section of the A45 to facilitate the extension of Birmingham Airport’s runway. The Government recognise the vital contributions that regional airports make to local economies and that regional connectivity is important, as explained by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw.

The amendments seek to expand the scope of CAA’s primary duty for its airport economic regulation functions to meet this point. Specifically, the primary duty is expanded by putting the provision of surface access links on an equal footing with airport operation services. Given the importance of surface access, I sympathise with the thinking behind this amendment. It is important that regulated airports can invest in surface transport access in so far as their unregulated counterparts would be able to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that explanation. I have a couple of very simple and quick questions. I assume that when he says there is an issue about being subject to price control, he is talking about baggage handling, car parking and things like that rather than the price of slots, which I think he said is outside everything. I would be grateful for his confirmation of that.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister will, no doubt, give an answer to that in just a moment. I am grateful to him for these amendments. As he said, there was considerable anxiety in the other place when discussing the concept of the dominant market. I am still trying to get my head round the position in respect of baggage at Heathrow being a dominant market, but will take the Minister’s word for that. I certainly accept the other extreme he put forward: all the airports in the south-east. We appreciate that, with these amendments, the Minister has helped to reassure us over the anxieties that were expressed in the other place. We all appreciate that it is not easy to get to this definition and that considerable efforts have been made. At first, I thought the cross-reference to the European Commission looked a bit like overkill, but the Minister is making sure he has belt and braces with regard to this, in response to the challenges that were made in the other place. I am quite sure my colleagues there will join me in thanking him for these amendments and accepting that they go a considerable way to allaying past anxieties and help the Bill.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is right that it is not the price of slots. The price of slots has an economic value, but it is not regulated.

Transport: Isles of Scilly Ferry Link

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, wondered how far my brief would stretch. Unfortunately, it does not stretch as far as the condition of the Merchant Navy.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, surely the Minister has already recognised that the viability of the service depends on the tourist trade and that the people who live on the Scilly Isles—on very low incomes—are paying the tourist price for the vessels, namely £90. As my noble friend indicated, that is more than four times the amount that you would expect to pay to make a similar journey in Scotland. Is it not time that the Government looked at this very seriously? There are clear potential threats to the existing services, which in any case do not meet the islanders’ need.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident that there will be a service in the short term. The noble Lord asked about the cost of a ticket for the ferry. I understand that a day return is £35 and a period return costs £85 to £95. However a Scilly Isles resident’s return is £20.50, so they do get a discount.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we are not dithering about a third runway at Heathrow. Coalition policy is that there will not be a third runway at Heathrow.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister may or may not be dithering about Heathrow, but the Government have certainly dithered on the aviation Bill when environmental issues have cropped up in relation to airports. Will he take note of the fact that we will use the opportunities provided by the aviation Bill to examine thoroughly the Government’s position on these important environmental matters? I am very pleased today to see how many people, right across the House, are concerned.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that I shall listen very carefully to noble Lords’ input on the aviation Bill as it passes through the House.

Roads: Private Investment

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not quite sure about the exact proposal that my noble friend puts forward, but we are looking at all options and I will be grateful for any input from noble Lords into possible models.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it may well be the case that the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, authorised an effective improvement to the roads, but I am concerned that the Minister effectively told the House that pretty well everything could be covered by this initiative. For example, would it be possible that there would be designated lanes for those who paid a road toll, so that we had the equivalent of first-class passengers on rail operating on our roads? Or would it mean that a mere resurfacing of the road, or just the addition of a junction, would effectively mean that the road had been upgraded and therefore could be subject to one of these initiatives?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made just the same points as I made to my officials. The key question is: is it additional capacity or is it merely an enhancement? If it is additional capacity, we would consider tolling it, but if it was just an enhancement, perhaps that would not justify tolling. The noble Lord puts his finger on an extremely important point.

Transport: Automatic Number Plate Recognition

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, ANPR technology can be fixed or mobile. Both technologies are used where appropriate. However, if you want to use ANPR technology for a prosecution, the equipment has to be Home Office approved, and there are some issues there.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

We note that the Minister has been closely involved with the police and has been helping them with any inquiries which they make, and I am very glad to see him back in his place today. Will he address his mind to the fact that the cost of motor insurance, which, after all, encourages those of a less respectable bent to try to avoid it, went up by 14 per cent last year? For young people getting their first car, if it is of a fairly clapped-out variety, insurance could be twice the cost of their vehicle. What are the Government going to do about that?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is absolutely and precisely right, as usual. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is shortly to chair a working group looking at the cost of motor insurance for young people.

Olympic Games 2012: Disruption to Businesses

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an extremely important point. It is quite clear to me that those planning for the Olympics have carefully studied the experience of other nations when they have put their Games on, which is one reason why I think that we are on track to deliver an excellent set of Games.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it is of course enormously important that transport in London is sustained sufficiently for normal businesses to be able to operate. However, the Minister will know of one form of business that will already be adversely affected—black cabs, which will not be able to go into these privileged lanes. So, that is one business that is facing a real challenge. Can the Minister assure us that government Ministers and others who have privileged transport will not trespass into these lanes, which we recognise are in response to the requirements of the Olympic authorities and already attract the unfortunate epithet of the Zil lanes, after the privileged form of transport in Moscow? I can think of nothing more offensive to the ordinary Londoner than to see that these lanes which are reserved for athletes to fulfil their Olympic obligations are being patronised by government Ministers.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if I may say so, that was an ingenious question from the spokesman for the Opposition. However, noble Lords will recall that the bid plans were approved by the previous Administration. On a particular point about the Olympic route network and the Games lanes, the Games lanes will be put in place only where there are two lanes, and only for as long as necessary.

Railways: Level Crossings

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to draw attention to this serious risk, which is why Network Rail pays so much attention to it. It is important to understand that we have far and away the best record on this matter in Europe, with the exception of Ireland, which is only slightly better. In this control period Network Rail will close around 556 crossings. I imagine that many of these are footpath or farm crossings. However, providing just a footbridge costs £750,000. It is very hard to construct a robust business case given the very low chance of an accident occurring at any particular crossing. Network Rail is trying to reduce the cost of these bridges. It is important to understand that where the risk is known to be higher, a crossing system with increased protection will already have been installed.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, after the court judgment against Network Rail in February over deaths that occurred on a level crossing, the executives donated their bonuses to a charity to promote level crossing safety. Is the safety of our railways to be dependent on such quixotic gestures, or should the people responsible for the safety of the railways make sure they do a proper job?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the biggest problem with level crossing safety is the behaviour of pedestrians, particularly when they get distracted. All four fatalities that occurred last year were behaviour-related and almost exclusively involved a distraction problem. The best thing that Network Rail can do is to educate people, so that sounds like rather a good strategy on its part.

Roads: Motorists and Cyclists

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Glentoran for introducing this important subject for debate and for the clear way in which he did so. There are two camps in this debate; however, there is no doubt that all noble Lords are concerned about the safety of all vulnerable road users, so that cyclists are safe and that they do not endanger others.

The commendable Cities Fit for Cycling campaign has been spearheaded by the Times newspaper. Its campaign is in response to the tragic accident involving Mary Bowers. I understand that not only was she such a good reporter that she was on the staff of the Times but that she has undertaken highly commendable aid work in Africa. I am sure that we all hope and pray that she can make a recovery.

My noble friend referred to the mayor’s cycling strategy, which is entirely consistent with the coalition Government’s policies. All road accidents are tragedies that strike hard and without warning, so the Government, like our predecessor, are working hard to make highways safer for everyone. In answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Craigavon, since at least 1997 the UK Government have been strongly pro-cycling. For instance, many cyclist fatalities involve large vehicles, so to make cycling safer in our cities and towns we have recently given councils in England the power to install Trixi mirrors at junctions so that HGV drivers can see more at blind spots.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, raised the issue of visibility and sensors. We are leading discussions at a European level to further improve standards for HGVs to help to reduce accidents caused by poor visibility. We also welcome initiatives such as the Exchanging Places events, at which you can sit in a lorry cab and watch for a police cyclist riding up on the left of the vehicle. This gives you an idea of what the lorry driver can see.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, also asked about side guards on HGVs. Most HGVs already have to have side guards, but the noble Lord will be aware that there are some exemptions, particularly construction vehicles, and they have been disproportionately involved in these tragic accidents. Over time, we should see fewer new vehicles without side guards. New European rules that are currently being phased in are stricter than existing GB rules and should reduce the current fairly long list of exemptions from the fitment of side guards, as well as limit exemptions to vehicles where fitting side guards is difficult or impossible.

We are also considering how to make motorists more aware of the needs of cyclists and are looking at how to incorporate more cyclist awareness in the driver certificate of professional competence for drivers of large vehicles.

The noble Viscount, Lord Craigavon, advised caution on 20 mile per hour speed limits. Reducing traffic speeds can make our roads safer for everyone and make streets more pleasant places for both cyclists and pedestrians. We are supportive of local authorities adopting a 20 mile per hour speed limit, particularly in residential areas, and have relaxed regulations to enable these to be introduced with less bureaucracy. It is for local authorities to determine their suitability for introduction.

We have also committed £11 million per year for the remainder of this Parliament for Bikeability training to help a new generation of cyclists to gain the skills they need to cycle safely. Bikeability is not just for children; it is for adults too, and some local authorities provide free or subsidised training.

My noble friend Lord Glentoran talked about driver testing. We are committed to further improving the safety of young drivers. Young people ought to learn how to handle risks before taking the driving test. We want a driver training and testing system that ensures that learner drivers have the knowledge, skills and, most importantly, the attitude to be safe and responsible on our roads before a full licence is granted and that encourages continued training afterwards.

I am also well aware that your Lordships are very concerned that all users of the highway should abide by traffic laws. Indeed, I have recently answered Oral Questions about cyclists riding on pavements and going through red lights. Cyclists injure other road users less frequently than do motorists. However, it is important for cyclists to comply with road traffic laws for their own and others’ safety and to help to build respect between the different groups of people using our roads. I fully understand the points made by my noble friend Lady Sharples and the noble Lord, Lord Wills. The noble Lord talked about the problem of the underreporting of accidents. It can be difficult to measure cycling accidents, particularly cyclist-only accidents.

The offences of careless and dangerous driving are applicable to drivers of motor vehicles. For cyclists, there is a similar legal framework, including offences of dangerous cycling, careless and inconsiderate cycling, and cycling under the influence of drink or drugs. Noble Lords will be aware that enforcement in relation to cycling offences is an operational matter for the police. They have at their disposal a variety of sanctions, including the use of fixed penalty notices for some offences, such as cycling on the pavement. Fixed penalty notices can be issued to people aged over 16. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Wills, the most effective deterrent is the probability of sanctions being applied rather than their levels. There is also the problem of some cyclists being ignorant of the law.

The police acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle on some roads. This is one reason why, at times, they use their discretion and enforce the offence of cycling on the pavement using verbal warnings. Police and crime commissioners, being elected later this year, will set the strategic direction and accountability for local policing. They can represent public concerns, for example about roads policing, and instigate change locally.

Cycling has many benefits, as pointed out by my noble friend Lord Taverne and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott of Foscote. Research suggests that for each life lost through a cycling accident, approximately 20 lives will be extended by the health benefits of cycling. As well as the health benefits, cyclists offer other benefits when they replace vehicle trips, and these include reducing carbon emissions, improving air quality, and reducing congestion. My noble friend Lord Taverne has done the House a great service by explaining the benefits so well.

Last September, my colleague Norman Baker chaired the inaugural Cycling Stakeholder Forum. The forum was set up to gather together expert stakeholders who share our goal of increasing cycling. The group is currently looking at the links with health and how to tackle both the real and perceived risks of cycling. I believe that the next meeting is due on 20 March.

The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, talked about shared spaces. New guidance to help local authorities to design high-quality shared space schemes was published by the Transport Minister Norman Baker last year. The local transport note on shared space has been developed to assist local authorities that want to put in place well designed shared space schemes. The guidance places particular emphasis on engagement with the local community and on inclusive design, where the needs of a diverse range of people, including people with disabilities, are properly considered at all stages of the development process.

On top of the integrated transport block funding, we are also providing £560 million to local authorities through the local sustainable transport fund to support packages of measures that deliver economic growth and cut carbon: 38 out of the 39 successful bids announced last July included a cycling element. The Government will announce decisions on tranche 2 and large project bids later this year. Last month the Government announced a further £15 million of funding for new cycle infrastructure: £7 million will go to improving facilities at stations for cyclists and £8 million will go to Sustrans to provide better local links by creating new off-road cycle paths or shared-use paths.

My noble friend Lord Glentoran talked about insurance, as did my noble friend Lady Sharples. The Government have no plans to make insurance compulsory for cyclists. We encourage all cyclists to take out some form of insurance, and many do through cycling organisations, such as CTC, which provide it with membership, or through their household insurance. The absence of insurance does not prevent a cyclist from being liable for their actions. The police, and ultimately the courts, will take into account all the circumstances of any incident and judge accordingly.

My noble friend Lord Glentoran mentioned the need for high-visibility clothing. We want to encourage all cyclists to wear high-visibility clothing to help them to stay safe while riding and to make them more conspicuous to other road users. However, to make it a legal requirement would, in certain circumstances, discourage cyclists and many noble Lords have recognised the dangers.

My noble friend Lady Sharples talked about helmets. We want to encourage cyclists, especially children, to wear helmets to protect them if they have a collision. However, we believe that it should be a matter of individual choice, rather than a matter of imposing additional regulations that will be difficult to enforce and, again, could discourage cycling.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and others raised the issue of strict liability. In English civil law, the principle of civil liability in motor insurance is predicated on the establishment of fault. In order to prove fault, it is necessary to prove that the defendant’s actions caused the accident and were either negligent or intentional. We have had the benefit of advice from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott of Foscote, which has saved me the effort of straying outside my area of expertise.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene, because I realise the constraints of time. He will know that in Holland and Denmark, which have been cited in this debate, the presumption of responsibility for the accident lies with the powered vehicle. That issue was raised by several noble Lords and I sought to emphasise it, too. Have the Government considered that matter?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have considered it, but it would be a little odd to have a completely different legal system just for cycles. There are serious complexities here that in my opinion are insurmountable.

The noble Viscount, Lord Craigavon, talked about advanced stop lines. There appears to be some misunderstanding about the law. It is essential that all motorists read the Highway Code to avoid inadvertently committing an offence and therefore being prosecuted by the police.

If I have missed any vital point, I will of course write to noble Lords. In conclusion, I can assure the House that we are committed both to promoting cycling and to improving road safety for all road users, including cyclists.

Railways: Great Western Franchise

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that officials take all relevant considerations into account, but I cannot comment on my noble friend’s particular point.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, no doubt rail passengers will look with some hope—which we expect to be fulfilled—for the improvement of a service that has been the subject of considerable criticism and dismay among passengers right along the line. Will the Minister confirm that the terms of the franchise will allow fares to be increased by 8 per cent in 2013-14, and possibly thereafter?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not aware of the noble Lord’s particular point, but we cannot operate a railway system for free; it has to be paid for, and paid for by fares.

Roads: Traffic Lights

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is absolutely right in all respects.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am normally in favour of the British public moving leftwards with the greatest possible facility but on this occasion I agree with the Minister. Very serious accidents have recently been caused by large vehicles turning left and hitting either cyclists or pedestrians because their visibility was restricted. As the Minister has indicated, the fact that our junctions are so much more difficult than the grid system in the United States creates an additional danger and disadvantage.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the noble Lord’s observations.

Transport Infrastructure: North-east England

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first of all, the schemes on the A1 north of Morpeth are not ready to go, because they have been abandoned since 2006. However, my noble friend is absolutely right when she describes the dangers of a single carriageway, and I asked my officials precisely those questions. Interestingly, though, the accident rate for this section of the A1 was 154 per billion vehicle miles. This compares with 306 accidents per billion vehicle miles on all rural A-class roads within England. The rate for the A1, therefore, is approximately half that for rural A-class roads nationally.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister will appreciate that very significant improvements were effected to the A1 south of Newcastle with the removal of some dangerous right-hand turns and roundabouts and effective control of traffic. All these improvements, however, are a considerable way south of Northumbria and Newcastle. Is there not a case for appreciating that the A1 now does need attention to the points further north, and that in fact he should look at that scheme further?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I re-emphasise that there is not a scheme at present that we can look at. The previous Administration also found, when they carefully analysed the situation, that there was not a business case for spending £10 per man, woman and child to dual all the way from Morpeth to Berwick-upon-Tweed.

Railways: Train Design

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 12th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has strayed a little from the Question, but I am confident that there is good news and I will write to him with further details.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will recognise that the Government have had a somewhat torrid time with the carriage supply since the Siemens contract. However, would the Government take a constructive approach in these terms: can we not reduce the number of designs of carriages in order that suppliers work to a much more restricted form of contract and thereby provide much more cheaply the carriages that we all know we need?

[Earl Attlee]

On the noble Lord’s first point about the Siemens contract, he will understand that we operated the procurement process set up by the previous Administration. We look forward to the NAO investigation that will probably take place after the contract award in order not to interfere with the process. The noble Lord’s second point is an extremely good one. We have too many types of rolling stock. One difficulty is that the rolling stock has a 30-year life cycle and it is quite easy to end up with a large number of areas, but the noble Lord is absolutely right.

Company Cars

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if a company car driver has an accident, I suspect that it would affect their no-claims bonus because they would have to declare their accident to the insurance company, but I am not absolutely certain on that point.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister will be all too well aware—he indicated this in his Answer—that the issue of car emissions is important for the health of our environment. Will he look again, and encourage his colleagues in the Treasury to look again, at whether we are giving sufficient encouragement to companies to provide greener cars for their people than they do at present?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident that with the CO₂ emissions regime we already encourage cars to be as green and economical as possible. However, the noble Lord will also be aware that we are encouraging the use of electric vehicles, which are exempt from fuel duty and have numerous other taxation benefits.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is quite right. The operational freedoms trial is in two phases: the current phase, and another phase largely over the Olympics period. One of the benefits of the operational freedoms trial is to reduce unscheduled night flights. I will have to write to my noble friend on the detail of her rather more searching questions.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House must be dismayed at the Minister’s negative response to this very important issue. After all, aviation is one of the important parts of the economy that is capable of growth, yet we are getting nothing but negative responses from the Government. Will the Minister at least acknowledge that we on the opposition Front Bench have offered to meet Ministers to see how we can plan a future for aviation that is considerably more productive than the Government’s present position, which is largely one of stalling and negativism?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is difficult to avoid being negative when the answer is, “No third runway at Heathrow”. However, we look forward to any contribution Her Majesty’s Opposition make to the future aviation policy framework. The Government want aviation to grow, but to do so it must play its part in delivering our environmental goals and protecting the quality of life of local communities. We are developing a sustainable framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impacts.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. There is a further difficulty with the public service obligation, which is that one can be imposed only if there is a difficulty with services to London as a whole, as a region. If there is a problem with services to London as a hub airport, that would not justify imposing a public service obligation, so at the moment it is difficult to have the effect that the noble Lord seeks.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House should have taken solace from the fact that the Minister has added to his very negative response in his first Answer by indicating that the Government can act if it proves to be necessary. Will he recognise that of course the interests of Northern Ireland are very much involved in this issue, but that it is not just Northern Ireland and Belfast? Edinburgh, too, has its anxieties about this situation. Is he aware that Willie Walsh, the egregious head of IAG, in welcoming the potential opportunities from this purchase, stated that in fact the great business opportunities, of course, lay with using these slots for long-haul aircraft, not for serving parts of the United Kingdom?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can definitely feel the heat from your Lordships. The sale of these slots to BA will increase the share of BA’s parent, IAG, of all Heathrow airport slots from 44 per cent to around 53 per cent, although IAG points out that even after the acquisition of BMI’s slots, its percentage of Heathrow slots would still be smaller than Lufthansa’s 60 per cent slot holding at Frankfurt.

Shipping: Towing Vessels

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes an extremely important point and his analysis is correct. However, although the Dover Strait is an area of higher likelihood because of the concentration of ships in the area, experience indicates that the consequences of a grounding are likely to be lower because the seabed is flat and sandy rather than rocky. Regarding his point about the motorway pile-up, the coastguard, with automatic monitoring of ship movements, will be aware immediately a ship stops moving and can warn other ships of the difficulties.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is it not the case that the Government are not prepared to pay the relatively modest insurance policy to guarantee that we have adequate towing tug capacity in British waters? If a major disaster occurs, we will be dependent upon Rotterdam or other foreign ports to produce the necessary towing and tug equipment. Is that not a dereliction of duty on the part of the Government?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about Rotterdam. Rotterdam and the Dutch have great experience in salvage operations. There are lots of tugs operating out of there. If we withdrew the funding, which we have, from the Falmouth tug, someone will probably station a tug in Falmouth in order to pick up the market. Currently, however, we are distorting the market by paying out large sums of taxpayers’ money to no good effect.

Saudi Arabia: Driving Licences

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has asked me quite a detailed question, and I am afraid that I shall have to write to her.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, as the Arab spring is showing some buds even in Saudi Arabia, with regard to the participation of women on the Consultative Council, could the Government at least indicate to the Saudi Government that, from our experience, women are safer drivers than men?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that when we talk to the Saudi Arabian Government, we make that point.

Biodiesel

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. RTFCs were traded at a nil value but that was because of an error in the drafting of the original RTFO by the previous Government. That problem has been rectified and will not recur.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister is reading his brief excellently today to the great advantage of the House. I appreciate the fact that this Question probably should be directed rather more at Her Majesty’s Treasury than the Department for Transport. But the noble Earl failed to answer the crucial point made by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. What is the Government’s response to the clear signal that many companies which are benefiting from this position at present and are pursuing the policies, which we would all endorse with regard to this sustainable fuel, are indicating that they will drop out from this position and return to fossil fuels unless the Government take a different view?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I answer for Her Majesty's Government and not for any particular department. This policy is following the perfectly sensible trajectory set by the previous Government.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not think it is an either/or decision.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

What is the Government’s transport policy really meant to contribute to economic growth? On rail, it seems a question of asking passengers to pay more; on roads they cut the funding that subsidises the cameras that keep our roads safe; and on aviation they have taken the negative decision against the third runway. What exactly are the Government’s plans for the aviation industry to make a contribution to economic growth?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we will have to wait and see when the aviation policy framework document is published next year as a draft.

Diplomatic Missions: Unpaid Congestion Charges and Parking Fines

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the situation is simple: we believe that the Government of the United States should pay these congestion charges and parking fines as they occur. It does not really matter how far out the congestion charge zone goes, these fines and charges are due.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister is right: sagas last a long time, and so has this particular abuse—for it is an abuse of our hospitality when charges are not paid by foreign embassies. Why does the Minister not talk to his Foreign Office colleagues and suggest that Foreign Office staff from this country working overseas will not pay any charges until we reach the sum that is owed to us by those delegations that refuse to pay legitimate charges?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord will recognise that diplomacy is a very delicate matter and that such a course of action would be extremely ill advised.

Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, on behalf of Her Majesty's Opposition, I give my full support to the Bill. It will be appreciated that all Private Bills take a fair amount of time to pass through the House, and this one certainly has. It is very good that we have reached this point of fruition today. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is reassured on the points that he raised. I am not quite sure that I can go quite so far as him in defining Transport for London as a benign institution; I hope he will acknowledge that he was reflecting from a very narrow perspective. He will know that many of us have considerable anxieties about the operations of Transport for London, and consequently “benign” is not the first adjective that comes to mind for some. Nevertheless, we certainly wish the Bill well and warmly congratulate the noble Baroness on taking it through the House at this stage.

My noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe ought really to have been at this Dispatch Box at this moment. In fact, I sought all my powers of persuasion in arguing that it should be him, because he was in at the very origins of the Bill a number of years ago when it was considered in this House. However, he is in the dizzy position these days of shadow Deputy Chief Whip, and I hold such people in such high respect that I do exactly what I am told. That is why I am addressing the House on the Bill.

I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised one or two points on which reassurance will be given in the wind-up. However, certainly in broad terms, this is an enabling Bill as far as Transport for London is concerned. We are in favour of measures that give enabling powers of this kind, provided that the necessary safeguards are in place. I am pleased to see on various parts of the coalition Benches enthusiasm for the structure of congestion charges, which gives one hope that a rather more constructive approach will be taken towards certain aspects of congestion charging in the future. This Bill gives Transport for London the powers necessary to advance the cause of Londoners in crucial areas, and we are very pleased to welcome it.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it has been more than two years since Parliament last considered this Private Bill. This is therefore the first time that the Bill has been considered by the coalition Government and this Parliament.

Our capital city's transport network is large and complex, and it should come as no surprise that the promoters of this Bill occasionally encounter challenges that prompt them to seek specific powers further to those already on the statute book. This Government recognise the critical role that transport has to play in supporting London’s economy and with it the nation’s prosperity. We are continuing to invest in London's infrastructure, with Crossrail, the Tube upgrades and Thameslink all under way.

The Government are content for this Bill to pass to the other place, where it can be further scrutinised. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for putting forward the Bill and for the clear way in which she explained it.

Olympic Games 2012: Courier Industry

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is nearly right. On 9 February 2011, responsibility for the 2012 Games travel demand management, Olympic and Paralympic route networks and road freight management programmes in London transferred to TfL.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords—

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that licensed black taxis should be allowed to use the Olympic lanes during the Games? If they do not do so, a lot of them will have to put their business on hold for the six weeks of the Games.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not absolutely sure of the answer to the noble Baroness’s question, but I am quite sure that TfL has taken this into consideration. Very few routes will be unavailable to cars.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the trouble with giving way is that one’s question is then addressed by the previous speaker. Could I just offer to the Minister a word of encouragement and warning? I am hot-foot back from the Olympic site this morning. Everyone who goes there is enormously encouraged by the preparations for the Games, which I am certain will be hugely successful when they occur. But perhaps I may give the Minister this word of warning: I had the misfortune many years ago to introduce the London bus lanes and left out the interests of the black cab trade. I still bear the scars to this very day, so I warn him lest he bear such scars.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, part of the reason why we are in such a good position with the Games is the good planning put in place by the previous Administration. With regard to the use of black cabs, noble Lords will understand that the primary route for getting to the Games should be public transport—buses, the underground and railway systems.

Railways: Cardiff Valley Lines

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there are numerous possible electrification schemes and we have to go for those that offer the best business case. At the moment, there is not a good business case for electrifying the line all the way to Swansea; there are much more attractive schemes elsewhere. We cannot do everything all at once.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, no one is asking the Minister to do everything all at once. He will recognise that it will be a considerable time before any of this electrification programme takes place, so will he take seriously the possibility that the Ebbw Vale line may well develop in such a way as to merit inclusion in the projected electrification of the valley lines? There is no doubt about the economic necessity of improved transport links between the valley towns and Cardiff.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Lord says, but it is important to understand that when there are relatively few diesel trains running, the savings that you can obtain by electrification are relatively small. At some point, the demand on the Ebbw Vale line may be sufficient to justify electrification.

Transport: Penzance and Isles of Scilly Ferry Service

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as I said in my initial Answer, we are committed to continuing the shipping link. One of the reasons for doing so is those employment opportunities on the Isles of Scilly that rely on that link.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we very much welcome the Minister’s response and the positive attitude of the Government, but he must appreciate the urgency of the position. The danger is that this summer’s trade—both passenger and freight—will be severely affected. This degree of urgency requires the Government to be a little clearer about how they will support funding. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, mentioned a moment ago, if this affected Scottish islands we have not the slightest doubt that action would have been taken.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord will appreciate that the Scottish shipping operations are much more complicated than the service to the Isles of Scilly.

Airports: London

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, most of the study relates to commercial aviation, not general aviation. The noble Lord will be aware that a future airspace strategy study is under way, which will improve the planning of flights from the continent to UK airports. It will also impact on general aviation, but I hope not in a negative way.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, does the Minister hope that his watchword—that this Government do not project or provide—runs right across Government? Does it extend to other Governments? Does he think, for instance, with regard to airports, that the Dutch, French and Spanish Governments are taking the same negative approach to the question of air traffic?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we do not take a negative approach to the aviation industry at all, but we have maxed out the capacity of the population around Heathrow Airport to tolerate further expansion. We also need to constrain aviation-related emissions.

Railways: Light Rail Vehicles

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend has made an important and interesting point. However, one of the advantages of a light rail scheme is that the maintenance load on the track is considerably reduced because of the lower axle loads of the light rail vehicles.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, given the number of places in the country where a light rail solution to transport needs would be most welcome, does the noble Earl accept that the issue of ride quality is fairly marginal, given that we are talking about the short distances to be covered? I hope that he will show some enthusiasm for making progress in this respect and not wait on the report of the McNulty study.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I made it clear in my initial responses that there would not be a second runway at Gatwick.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows, as do his colleagues, that Heathrow is operating at 97 per cent capacity. He also knows that, at the general election, his party was committed to blocking a third runway, which of course has effects on Heathrow’s future capacity. Today he has said that we have a South East Airports Taskforce. Is that the best response that the Government can make after years of policy formulation in this area?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think that I have made our policy clear. We cannot carry on increasing the number of airport runways in London and the south-east without adverse environmental effects.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 31st January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right; we touched on this last week as well. There are two reviews. One was commissioned by BAA. The other will come from the South East Airports taskforce. No doubt both reviews will consider that very important point and come back with suggestions on how we can avoid the problems in future.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, last week the noble Lord indicated that these reviews were taking place, but did not indicate the degree of urgency. It is 31 January and there is still plenty of winter to come. When will these reports be published and when will any action based on them be taken?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the reports will come in due course. However, if there are any lessons to be taken on board immediately, we will listen and take action on those points.

Airlines: Snow and Ice

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 27th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that the output from the two reviews will achieve the effect that my noble friend desires.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will be reassured that the Government are taking some action in this area, because action is certainly needed. We are all aware of the great significance of Heathrow in terms of passenger and freight traffic and its importance to tourism in this country. When the reputation of Heathrow suffers, so does the whole country. Will the Minister take particular interest in the level of communication with passengers when there are difficulties because there is no doubt that people suffered unduly at Heathrow as they had no idea what was going on day after day after day? It is important that the airport addresses this.

Disabled People: Transport

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 20th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend said there was some point in having training for drivers. Training for drivers is vital, as I am sure she would agree. The last time that we discussed the issue, I pointed out that there are costs associated with leaving unused spaces on buses for wheelchairs and mobility scooters. We must be careful not to take out too many seats from buses while ensuring that we make proper provision for disabled travellers.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister is making the right noises, but in government actions speak louder than words. Why did the Government not carry out a full impact assessment on the regulations in order that progress could be made as rapidly as possible?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, when officials negotiate in Brussels, they do the best job that they can for the United Kingdom. They ensure that we do not accept unnecessary burdens on the UK transport industry while protecting the vital rights of disabled travellers.

Transport: Mobility Scooters

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister will recognise the progress that we have made in recent years in terms of the availability of public transport to users of wheelchairs and other means of locomotion. However, does he appreciate that we are anxious that this looks as if it is grinding to a halt, in particular against the background of new equipment, some of which is heavier than we have been used to in the past? Does he recognise that normal users of bus and train services take on very commodious vehicles such as pushchairs which are of huge size, and therefore it ill behoves us to let down those who are disabled?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord touched on the weight of wheelchairs. One issue is that modern class 3 mobility scooters that can be used on a public road are so heavy that they could cause a problem with access ramps. That is why we need to work to agree standards covering which mobility scooters can go on which modes of public transport.

Aviation: Hand-luggage Restrictions

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not prepared to promote regulation by central government. It is for the airline industry to come up with consistent standards and we are not going to regulate on this. The noble Baroness touched on the position of orchestras. However, orchestras do not have this problem because they have significant buying power and sometimes hire the whole aircraft. The real problem lies with individual musicians, perhaps going to a show in southern Europe on their own, as they have very little buying power or clout.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, leaving it to the industry looks to be a somewhat forlorn hope. After all, the Minister has just illustrated that an airline can disagree with itself on how it treats musicians according to whether they are going out or coming back. We know how long it takes for regulations to be drafted, let alone appear before the House, but if the Government at least indicated that they were prepared to take some action in this area, surely that would be a stimulus to the industry to tackle what is obviously an acute problem.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if an airline disagrees with itself then it will acquire some very bad publicity. We have seen that in the press on several occasions recently as regards not only musical instruments but other problems associated with check-in as well.

Maritime and Coastguard Agency

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, unfortunately I am not briefed on that. It is a very good point and I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is the Minister briefed on his obvious point? This is the second question where we have had a response from the Front Bench which is driven by the necessity for cuts and not for protection of the quality of the service. Will he address himself to that question?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the necessity for the cuts arises from the party opposite.

Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, neither have I, but I am going to speak at slightly greater length than the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, if only to congratulate the Minister on the lucid way in which he presented the order. He deserves a larger audience when the Government are for once doing good things. I commend him on what he is doing and I am sorry that he has a limited response here today. He has wholehearted support on my part and, so far as I can detect from the brief remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, he has 100 per cent from him too.

I appreciate the particular and gentle way in which the Minister indicated that there had been an error with regard to motorcycles in 2009. I am glad that that has been corrected, not least because those in the motorbike community sometimes feel that they are hard pressed even to the point of being victimised because they travel on two wheels. We all know from the incidence of accidents that it is a more hazardous form of travel. Therefore, at times motor cyclists are prone to considerable criticism for the accident rate, particularly since, as we know, a very small number are guilty of offending against speed limits in ways that cannot possibly be condoned. I am therefore glad that, on this occasion, we are indicating that fair is fair and making sure that the minor error that occurred in 2009 is put right.

We particularly commend that part of the order dealing with seat belts. There is no doubt that in the range of legislation that has helped to reduce fatalities and injuries over the years, seat-belt legislation takes pride of place. It has been of enormous significance. That is why successive Governments have extended its range and salience. We are entirely in favour of this order, which increases the deposit as far as seat belts are concerned.

I am interested in the noble Earl’s point about registration numbers. Perhaps he will correct what may be my somewhat dated perspective; can he make it absolutely clear whether number plate law obtains to the same specifications across the European Community? He emphasised the aspect to do with foreign vehicles and he is absolutely right that number plate recognition is an important part of law enforcement. I believe, for instance, that at present several countries do not expect motor bikes to have front number plates. I recall—this is where I am slightly hesitant because I may be a little dated—when Italian front number plates, particularly on fast Alfa Romeos, were of a microscopic quality, so even those with the keenest eyesight had difficulty in recognising them. I am not sure that the new technology is up to that. Can the Minister therefore offer that element of reassurance on number plates? Is there a degree of standardisation, and does that which obtains as far as the British motorist is concerned apply also to foreign motorists when they bring cars into this country and may be guilty of traffic offences?

I know we have tightened up on this matter but there is always the tendency for people to select a number plate that has an affectionate dimension to it. Therefore, the characters are produced in ways that mean they may not always be entirely recognisable. I saw one the other day that I was certain was the driver’s favourite nickname for his girlfriend. You had to get pretty close to the car—I do not know about the girlfriend—before you could easily recognise the number plate. I am just seeking reassurance on that score.

The noble Earl should recognise that we very much approve of the order and realise that it is under the affirmative procedure. That is why we are debating it today. If not, we would have been content for the order to go through.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their response to the order. As I explained at the outset, this is one of three related statutory instruments. The other two have been laid before the House under the negative resolution procedure.

I was surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, did not have a good go at me about foreign lorries; I had a lovely speech ready to roll but I did not need to use it.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his contribution. He raised a number of points. This order builds on the work of the Road Safety Act, which the noble Lord himself piloted through your Lordships’ House. I remember our debates on that. The noble Lord talked about seat belts. I cannot sit in a moving car fitted with seat belts without fitting them. I would feel so uncomfortable. It is a mystery to me why anyone would want to travel in a motor vehicle without wearing a seat belt, but they do. We do as much as we possibly can to stop people from doing that. I went out with the Metropolitan Police, and one of the things that they were paying attention to was motorists driving without wearing a seat belt.

The noble Lord talked about number plates. He is right that there is a wide range of styles of number plates. VOSA is particularly concerned about foreign goods vehicles. I believe that VOSA can read foreign number plates with its automatic number plate reading equipment. That is important because VOSA targets its efforts against certain operators and certain vehicles when it knows that they are rogue operators. The fixed penalties might seem to be quite small in relation to the operation of a goods vehicle. However, every fixed penalty offence will be recorded on the VOSA database. If the vehicle is detected again, it will be stopped to try to ensure that it is operating in compliance with the law.

The financial penalty deposit scheme helps to provide our enforcement authorities with an effective enforcement mechanism for dealing with alleged road traffic offenders who would otherwise be extremely difficult to pursue. The scheme needs minor housekeeping changes from time to time to keep it in line with the fixed penalty scheme so that UK resident offenders and offenders who have no satisfactory address in the UK can be dealt with in an equivalent way. Such minor changes are being proposed under this order and I believe that most motorists would understand and support these amendments irrespective of whether they are UK residents or non-UK residents. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.

Roads: Long and Heavy Vehicles

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. The damage to the road goes up in proportion to the fourth power of the axle weight, but we have no intention of altering the permitted axle weights either. However, the type of vehicle we are looking at will require different axle arrangements on the rear of the vehicle.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I quite appreciate the Minister approaching this issue with some care, because he will know the anxieties of the general public about the questions over the damage which heavy lorries do to our roads and the pollution that they create. However, is there any reason why he should delay the charging of heavy goods vehicles, given that at present he is all too well aware of the unfairness of foreign lorries coming into this country and using our roads without cost?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we discussed lorry road-user charging recently at Question Time. We are working on it and will announce on it in due course.

Transport: Bus Stops

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 22nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not aware of what the Essex police have done, but I am fully aware that parking on pavements, especially when it is unexpected and there are no traffic signs allowing for such parking, is particularly dangerous to people with impaired vision.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it is all right for the Minister to say at the Dispatch Box that he will encourage local authorities and the police to be more active, but the Government have plans to reduce significantly the resources available to the police and to cut local authority budgets by 30 per cent. Will he also address the question of whether the Highway Code is entirely clear about the obligations of motorists with regard to parking at bus stops?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my officials take great interest and care in drafting replies to all Parliamentary Questions. During their research, it was discovered that there is an error in rule 240 of the Highway Code: it does not list bus stop clearways as somewhere you must stop. However, at the next printing that error will be corrected.

Roads: Charging

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 18th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes an extremely good point. It is one of the obvious options to look at.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, what is the Minister’s explanation for the length of time that is being taken over the introduction of the scheme? The Government courted the heavy goods vehicle industry in this country by saying in their manifesto that they intended to introduce a scheme. The coalition agreement and the business plan of the department stated that the scheme would be introduced, and yet we are now looking at a delay of at least four years before a scheme is introduced. Why is this, and will the Minister also rule out a charge that must be paid not just by foreign heavy goods vehicle operators but also by home-based hauliers?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on the noble Lord's substantive point, we are anxious to avoid making the mistakes of the previous Government, who spent £60 million of public money on a satellite lorry road-user charging scheme that achieved absolutely nothing.

Railways: North-west

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 18th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government support proposals for the Todmorden curve and are providing help and advice to local authorities working with Network Rail and the train operator to develop a proposal that has a business case and can be funded through local and regional sources. On the general point about reopening lines, we would be happy to work with a local authority promoter which sought to establish whether reopening a line was the best way to meet local transport needs. However, I emphasise the need for a good business case.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, did the Minister notice that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, as a loyal supporter of the coalition, failed to mention the very great investment indeed made by the last Labour Government in the west coast main line, which has raised the performance of the train service to the level it has reached today? Does he also accept that while we welcome his statement today about electrification in the north-west, he knows that the shortage of rolling stock is an acute issue, and that this relates to investment decisions on Thameslink in southern England? The two are related because of surplus rail stock that is destined to go to the north-west. Will he confirm that he will take that on board, because there is not much point in producing an infrastructure if you do not have the rolling stock to roll on it?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord made several points, many of which were correct. I want to make it quite clear where we are on electrification. In 2009, it was announced that the following lines in the north-west would be electrified: Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss, which we plan to complete by 2013; Liverpool to Wigan North Western by 2014; Manchester to Bolton and Preston by 2016; and Preston to Blackpool North by 2015. That is what we are planning to do.

Roads: Cyclists

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is most important that every one reads the Highway Code from time to time, in order that they understand their obligations as road users.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I ride a bike—in fact, I was riding one this morning—so I declare that interest, but, in balance, I also drive a car. Let us get the issue of bike problems into some kind of perspective. What percentage of the road accidents in which our fellow citizens died last year were due to lawbreaking by cyclists, and why are the Government abolishing Cycling England, which seeks to train cyclists?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we will have to wait for the comprehensive spending review later next week to answer that question.

Parking and Traffic Offences

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 6th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

Again, this is a Question about parking charges, but such matters are under review.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Will the Minister reconsider the inadequate answer that he gave to my noble friend a moment ago? This Question is about traffic offences and congestion charges are part of traffic offences. My noble friend asked about the vast sums of money owed by certain diplomatic missions for their offences with regard to congestion charges in London. We want a better answer from the Minister.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept the noble Lord’s point. We will exercise pressure on diplomatic missions when they are not paying their fines or congestion charges. However, the noble Lord will understand that it is a difficult problem, which is why the previous Government found it just as difficult as we will find it in future.

Roads: Speed Cameras

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if we are to continue the downward trend in road traffic accidents, it is vital that we monitor the accident rate and its causes and contributory factors, whether that is speed that, if not illegal, is excessive or whether it is just plain exceeding the speed limit.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is it not the case that the local authorities are anticipating cutbacks in resources as well? Will the Minister take responsibility for the statement on his department’s website that,

“Without safety cameras to reduce speeding and make … roads safer, around 100 more people would be killed each year”?

Is the Minister going to deny that?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we are discontinuing funding for new cameras, but local authorities may install new cameras if they wish. It is up to local authorities to make decisions to suit local conditions.

Government: Ministerial Cars

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the answer remains the same. On security grounds, former Prime Ministers and Ministers may continue to have the use of an allocated car and driver.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is the reduction in the use of ministerial cars a reflection of the priorities of the Government in cutting public expenditure or is it a reflection of the fact that more than half the Cabinet are wealthy enough to be able to afford their own cars and drivers?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, whether the Cabinet is wealthy or not is immaterial. The objective is to reduce the government deficit and we will do that any way we can, including by reducing expenditure on the Government’s car fleet.

Railways: Crossrail

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has great experience in these matters and I will draw his comments to the attention of my ministerial colleagues.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, will the noble Lord forgive me if I look upon the word “scope” as a somewhat weasel word in this context? If he is interpreting the position as one in which the length of trains and the length of stations are not to be changed, and the range of Crossrail—the areas which it will serve—is not to be changed, where on earth are the economies to come from?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the economies will come from best-value engineering solutions. For instance, the noble Lord will be aware that innovative engineering solutions were used for the station box at Canary Wharf station. That is a good example of where economies can be made. In 1997, Crossrail was but a faint blip on my radar. I pay tribute to noble Lords opposite for their work on Crossrail, particularly brokering the funding package and obtaining parliamentary approval for the Crossrail Act 2008. We support the project and will run with it.

Railways: Network Rail

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government have a commitment to review the structure of Network Rail, and we will do so.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, whatever the deficiencies of Network Rail, which the noble Earl says he is going to address, will he acknowledge that he is blessed to deal with Network Rail in comparison with his Labour predecessors in 1997, who had to deal with the botched Conservative privatisation of rail and the notorious Railtrack?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, when I was in opposition I could never get to the bottom of why the party opposite created the Strategic Rail Authority and then abolished it.

Transport: Savings

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hope to encourage the usual channels to give us a major transport debate, when I will be in a position to answer all the noble Lord’s questions.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Earl to the Front Bench and congratulate him on his appointment. There was a time when the name Attlee brought transports of delight to this side of the House, so I look forward with optimism to the future. Will he confirm that in striving for a greener economy, it ill behoves the Government to cut the number of new carriages to be made available to Thameslink and the carriages that would therefore become available to the hard-pressed north-west railway system? Does he recognise that cutting back on rail transport will produce discomfort for passengers and do nothing to reduce carbon?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I understand the noble Lord’s concern and will write to him on the detail. However, he will recognise that ring-fencing or protecting expenditure in one area only increases the reductions required elsewhere.