Older People: Their Place and Contribution in Society

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Friday 14th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, this has been a hugely enlightening debate in which all Members of this House are infinitely more qualified to take part than me. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions.

I could not pass up the honour of answering the historic final debate in this House of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury as the Archbishop of Canterbury. I, like others, hope that he will continue to make a contribution in the House, perhaps in a different guise. I thank him for the momentous role that he has played not only in this House but in the Church of England, in interfaith relations and in British society. He has been thoughtful, brave and challenging, and has always managed to remain relevant to today’s challenges. I add my voice to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, to the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, and to the warm words of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock.

This debate could not be in a more relevant time or place, in a year when we are marking 60 years of service by one of Britain’s greatest ever older people, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth. When we refer to great women, I am sure that the House will join me in saying to the most reverend Primate that colleagues value not only his contribution but also the amazing contribution of his wife Jane. As we all know, no great man can ever succeed without a great woman behind him.

As we heard today, the changing demography of the UK means that the contribution of older people in society is more important than ever. Much was made earlier this week of the changing make-up of Britain, revealed in the census results. One of the biggest changes to our country that is often overlooked is the rising number of older people. Every year about 650,000 people turn 65. That means that there are more people over the age of 60 than there are under the age of 18, and it means that pensioners make up almost one-fifth of our total population. There are 1.4 million people over the age of 85 living in Britain today, and 12,000 of those are Britons over the age of 100. Of those, 10 are super-centenarians: people who have reached the age of 110.

Our oldest living resident, Grace Jones of Bermondsey, celebrated her 113th birthday earlier this month. That is something that we can all call—using the words of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood—a very good innings. Long may it continue. The proportion of older people in Britain is set to rise even more dramatically, mainly due to a drop in fertility rates, advances in healthcare, and the fact that all those baby boomers from the 1960s are starting to reach retirement. It is estimated that by 2050 the number of Britons over 65 will have doubled to reach 19 million.

We owe a great debt to the older members of our society—family members, friends, colleagues and neighbours—who have shaped the world that we live in today. Some of them lived through the Great War, remember the roaring ’20s and the depression, fought fascism and saved Europe from tyranny, rebuilt Britain after the war and created the welfare state, came to Britain for a better life from other countries and spent the swinging ’60s campaigning for the equalities that we enjoy today. Our older people take a long view. They have seen booms, they have seen busts. They have seen politicians come and they have seen them go. The point is that society has so much to learn from them, which is why we should encourage more intergenerational interaction.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, had some interesting suggestions on how high tech could play a role. More conventional intergenerational interaction is something that my department already supports. For example, there is a project known as the Mitzvah Mummies, which I visited earlier this month, where mothers and their babies visit retirement homes—so simple yet so beneficial, alleviating the loneliness that is, sadly, part of the lives of so many older people. This was referred to so poignantly by the noble Lords, Lord Glasman and Lord Crisp. The Department for Work and Pensions, too, supports this interaction—for example, by introducing grandparent credits to support those who care for their grandchildren with their pension contributions. Our Government recognise the importance of generations past by learning about British history. That is something that the Education Secretary is proving with his national curriculum. So we appreciate how valuable the people are who have lived through and shaped our history.

Older people have not just shaped our past; they make an enormous contribution today, in particular to our economy. The number of people of state pension age and above in employment has nearly doubled in the past two decades. According to one survey, the over 65s, through taxes, spending power, social care and volunteering, make a net contribution of £40 billion to the economy. The Government have scrapped the default retirement age, which was forcing people from their jobs just because they had hit 65. I could not put it better than my noble friend Lady Bottomley, who mentioned serious businesses opting for age and wisdom over youth. We are making difficult but necessary changes to the state pension age. Much evidence shows that working longer is good for the economy, for society and for the individuals. Keeping more people in work helps the economy to grow. If everyone worked a year longer, annual GDP could increase by £13 billion. In fact, one report has predicted that the country will continue to experience an increase in demand for older employees and an increase in the supply of those willing to work.

With an average age of 69, this House is a fine example of the contribution of older people to public life. Indeed, my first memorable experience in your Lordships' House was meeting my noble friend Lady Trumpington. I tried to intervene on a Question, as did my noble friend. Because of the youth in my legs, I got to my feet slightly quicker and took the question. I apologised afterwards and was, rightly, solidly told off by my noble friend because I forgot that she comes here with great expertise and I should have been more respectful of her and of this House. I realised very quickly that Members of this House are not just Members; many of them are institutions in their own right.

In 2010-11 this House spent 400 hours examining Bills. We considered 47 Bills and 2,499 changes and made 610 changes. We asked 7,546 Questions, many of which I seem to answer these days. We have former Foreign Secretaries; Olympic heroes; scientific geniuses; business gurus; faith leaders; and even wartime code-breakers. We have years of collective experience and expertise, which is what helps this House play its key role in checking and challenging the decisions and actions of this or any Government, ensuring that the laws of this country are rigorously tested to be fit for purpose. The downside for me is that I can never find anybody to whom I can complain about feeling tired, cold, overworked or in need of rest without being reminded that, by virtue of my age, I am not yet eligible to make such complaints.

We must also consider the unpaid contribution made by older people in Britain. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, was right to say that their contribution cannot be measured just in monetary terms. That point was reiterated by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, also made that point powerfully. Every year older volunteers spend an average of more than 100 hours informally volunteering and more than 55 hours in formal volunteering roles. This is worth £10 billion to the UK economy. In 2010-11, one in three people aged 75 and over were involved in some form of civic participation, including petitioning and participating in consultations and local meetings. In the same period, one in four people aged between 65 and 74 undertook some form of formal volunteering such as organising events, raising funds, leading a local group and visiting people. In fact, compared with other age groups, more older people visited others as part of their volunteering effort. This is invaluable when you think of the loneliness and isolation that can blight the older generation, as has been referred to by many noble Lords today.

A report by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation found that older people make significant contributions to the capacity of the organisations they assist through their voluntary work by bringing to them years of experience and expertise together with commitment and loyalty. I take on board the further schemes and initiatives referred to by my noble friend Lord Wei. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich spoke about the care provided for older people. However, the other side of the coin is the way in which so much care is provided by older people. About 960,000 people aged 65 and above provide unpaid care for a partner, family or other members of their extended circles. A fifth of all carers aged over 75 provide 50 or more hours of informal care each week.

Recent research has estimated that older carers in the UK are providing up to £4 billion-worth of unpaid volunteering and up to £50 billion worth of unpaid family care. That case was made powerfully by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. Grandparents Plus estimates that 25,000 grandparents over the age of 65 are raising 30,000 grandchildren in the UK and that if the children they are caring for were in independent care it would cost £1.4 billion in care costs alone each year. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, made a passionate speech about the contribution made by grandparents and, indeed, godparents. On a personal note, when I was appointed to your Lordships’ House, I was a single parent with a child in Yorkshire. Had it not been for my parents, I simply could not have taken on my role here. So, far from being just recipients of money, older people are also the creators of wealth.

Given the crucial place and contribution of older people, it is vital that society offers them support when they deserve it. We have heard too many stories of poor treatment of older people in hospitals and care homes. On 1 October this year, the ban on age discrimination in the provision of goods, facilities and services came into effect and will be an important means of improving the experience of older people in health and social care. My noble friend Lady O’Cathain rightly raised real concerns around dementia. We know that dementia is a nettle we need to grasp, which is why we have a champion group leading work on dementia-friendly communities where people will come together to reduce misunderstanding about dementia and improve the ability of people with dementia to remain independent and have choice and control over their lives.

Older people are the core customers of the health and care system. We need to ensure that their needs are met by, so far as is possible, keeping them well and out of hospital, providing high-quality, dignified and compassionate care, helping them to regain their independence after a period of support and providing advice and choice around end-of-life care. Those principles were mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, in her wide-ranging speech. The thing is, if we get it right for them, we get it right for everybody, including our minority ethnic elders. The challenges they face were expertly detailed by my noble friend Lord Dholakia and the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin. Those with specialist needs were referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and my noble friend Lady Barker spoke about older people from the OLGBT communities. She asked a number of questions in relation to diversity of provision. I have received a reply but it is not one with which I am satisfied, and I will therefore reply in more detail in writing.

The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, referred to the grey vote. I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on the electoral importance of older people and the fact that they are a generation whose politics can change in later life. My noble friend Lord Cormack referred to compulsory retirement for members of the clergy and the Supreme Court. It is a matter on which I will have to write to him, but I should ask him and others to bear in mind that there are those of us at the other end of the scale, of my generation and below, who yearn even to think about the possibility of choosing to retire at the age of 65 or 70.

The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, raised the issue of the specific vulnerabilities of age faced by prisoners. He reminded us why a person, a Minister or a single commissioner is unlikely to resolve the diversity issue or a range of issues faced by older people in prison and why those needs need to be mainstreamed. I will take those issues back to colleagues.

I note the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, in relation to services for older people. However, in difficult times, I hope that they will acknowledge what the Government are doing for older people by protecting key benefits, including free eye tests, free prescriptions, free off-peak bus travel, free television licences for those aged over 75, and winter fuel payments.

The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, raised a number of points that I shall try to answer. In relation to raising the pension age, people are living longer and healthier lives, and they therefore need to retire at a time when it is right for them. From 1 October 2011, the Government abolished the default retirement age. I agree with the noble Lord on combating ageism against older women. It is interesting that those of us who are women are usually seen as not as good when we are younger and not as strong or resilient when we are older, but we seem to outlive the men. In relation to expanding work opportunities for older people, I agree that there is no evidence that increasing the employment of older people reduces job opportunities or wage rates for younger people. Evidence suggests that older and younger workers are not competing for the same jobs; they tend to have different skill sets and different work experiences. In relation to the marathon runner, there is hope for us all to get fit. I also say to the noble Lord that I do not know when he anticipates retiring, if at all, but if he does, he has a potential further role as a stand-up comic.

Noble Lords asked me about the Government’s position on Dilnot. The Government are providing an extra £7.2 billion over the spending review period to protect access to services that support vulnerable people. Regarding Dilnot, the Government are still in consultation on the funding but looking to resolve that issue over the course of the next spending review.

I believe the mark of a good society is how well it treats its older people. Respecting our elders is inherently British. We must bust those myths and stereotypes about older members of society, who are not a homogenous group but whose ages span five decades from 60 to 113. As I have said, older people are not just recipients, they are contributors. They are not just helped by volunteers, they are the volunteers. They are not just the cared-for, they are the carers. This growing proportion of our population should not be seen as an issue but as an asset.

Perhaps I may take a moment at the end of my speech for some personal reflections. I recently went on holiday with my parents. As we were walking back one evening, having had a meal, my father was struggling to walk. His age is about the average age of Members of this House, and therefore, in many people’s eyes, he is not an older person. However, as he was struggling to walk, I remember reaching out to steady him and giving him my hand, and I remembered the way in which my parents must have on many occasions steadied me as I learnt to walk. I remember feeling quite sad, being aware that he was getting old and being concerned about how long he would be there for me. I realised then that, although I possibly no longer had his hand to steady me, I did have his wisdom. It was at that moment that I realised that in families, as the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, we must focus less on what older people can do physically and more on what they can do in so many other spheres. It gave me great comfort that there was so much more that I could continue to take from my parents.

Israel: Arab Citizens

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for securing this important debate. I welcome his personal experience and interest in the issues surrounding Israel’s Arab citizens and his proposals as to how Arab citizens might enjoy more equal and active citizenship. I acknowledge the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, about language and definition of identity. He speaks with great expertise, and I hope that he will forgive me if my FCO terminology does not quite meet those standards. In recent weeks the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and I have much discussed some permutation of this debate across the Dispatch Box. She has always been serious, measured and constructive and, for that, I thank her.

The promotion and protection of human rights is at the heart of UK foreign policy. How a country treats its minorities is an important test of a country’s democracy and respect for human rights and the rule of law. This is equally true for Israel. Indeed, it will become even more important for Israel as the proportions of the Arab Israeli and ultra-orthodox communities increase over time. Israel, as a state party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, has an international obligation to ensure equal social and political rights for all citizens, irrespective of religion and race. Israel’s declaration of independence calls for the establishment of a Jewish state with equal social and political rights for all citizens irrespective of religion and race. However, successive Israeli Governments have acknowledged that Israel has not fully met its commitments with particular regard to the Israeli minority. The report by Justice Theodore Or in 2003 concluded that government handling of the Arab sector had been neglectful and discriminatory and made numerous recommendations as to how this could be addressed.

As we have heard, significant concerns remain about the situation of the Arab Israeli community. It is widely acknowledged to suffer discrimination, particularly at work and in government spending on housing and education, as well as in educational attainment. For instance, despite Israel’s impressive economic performance in recent years, current indicators suggest that the economic situation of Israeli Arabs is static or worsening. According to the OECD, 50% of Israeli Arabs live in poverty. The lack of town plans and planning permission for Israeli Arab towns is one of the main causes of inequality and of the failure of Israel’s Arab citizens to fulfil their economic potential. In many areas with a large Israeli Arab population, town plans either do not exist or are out of date and do not reflect population growth. In the absence of plans, new building cannot be approved, but faced with existing overcrowding and the expanding need for housing, Israeli Arab communities build without approval, which leaves them vulnerable to prosecution and demolition of the new structures. As such, no new Arab city has been built since the establishment of the State of Israel.

In the 10 years since the Or report was published there have been several positive changes, some of which were referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. For example, there has been an increase in non-Jewish police recruitment, from 0.1% to 8.9%; better police liaison with Israeli Arab municipalities and community leaders; and an end to the use of live fire as a means of crowd control. However, as the right reverend Prelate said, disappointingly few of the institutional recommendations put forward in the Or commission’s report to address the socio-economic causes of Israeli Arab frustration have been adopted. We continue to urge the Israeli Government to implement the recommendations made by the commission; specifically, to address the economic disparities and unequal access to land and housing.

These are issues which matter to the United Kingdom. One of the strategic goals of the British Embassy in Tel Aviv is to help Israel become more cohesive and inclusive, in particular through ensuring the place of Arab Israelis and protecting Israeli civil society. The embassy is consistently monitoring events and reactions in the communities and attaches great importance to their concerns. Nothing should be done to prejudice Israel’s non-Jewish citizens or to discriminate against people on the basis of their race or religion. We are deeply disturbed by instances of anti-Arab rhetoric or violence.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has taken important steps to support the socio-economic integration of Israel’s Arab citizens. We allocated £250,000 in 2011-12 to the Arab community to support various projects that aim to redress some of the marginalisation. This year we funded Tsofen, a non-profit organisation, to strengthen the high-tech sector in Nazareth. Tsofen, founded in 2008 by Arab and Jewish high-tech and community leaders, aims to advance the economic and social equality of Arab citizens of Israel by accelerating their entry into the high-tech industry and helping Israel’s high-tech industry to locate successfully in Arab towns.

We have also supported a project delivered by the Arab Center for Alternative Planning to help empower Arab municipalities to deal with the reform in planning legislation. This non-governmental organisation works towards equality and the integration of Israel’s Arab citizens into public life activities, while preserving their cultural identity. The centre has now been formally recognised by Israel’s Interior Minister and has the legal right to intervene in official planning procedures as an independent legal entity. The project’s activities have significantly increased the knowledge and interests of engineers, planners and mayors of the Arab municipalities.

We are also extremely grateful for the supportive work of the UK Task Force on Issues Relating to Arab Citizens of Israel. As the noble Lord, Lord Janner, described, the UK task force was set up in 2009 under the joint leadership of the United Jewish Israel Appeal and the Pears Foundation with the aim of supporting an inclusive Israeli society. Its commitment to facilitating new partnerships to advance the integration and opportunities of Israel’s Arab minority is entirely positive; I pay tribute to the particular role played by the noble Lord in this work. I will also take back the work that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to—specifically, by Hand in Hand—and look at whether HMG could look to take some of that forward.

The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised the issue of the Bedouin minority in the Negev, one of the most discriminated groups within Israeli society. Estimated at approximately 170,000 people, the Bedouin in the Negev comprise 12% of the Arab citizens of Israel. Between 1968 and 1989, half of this population was transferred into several Israeli-built townships in the north-east of the Negev. The rest remain in unrecognised villages built spontaneously by the Bedouin, without basic services such as electricity and running water. Unable to secure planning permission for such villages, whole communities have been issued with demolition orders.

In 2007, the Israeli Government voted to create the Goldberg commission to address the Bedouin issue. In 2011, the Goldberg commission issued its report and made several key recommendations which, if implemented, could go some way to addressing the long-running land dispute between the state and the Bedouin. These included: the recognition of most of the Bedouin villages; allowing the majority of the homes to go through a legalising process; and establishing a committee to hear and settle traditional land claims. We remain concerned that those recommendations have not yet been implemented and that the situation of the unrecognised Bedouin villages and houses remains largely unchanged, with demolitions still occurring.

We note that, following the Goldberg report, the Israeli Government put forward the so-called Prawer plan, which was intended to implement those recommendations and led to significant concern and controversy—the noble Baroness referred to that. There is an ongoing consultation process between the Government and Bedouin representatives; we understand that there is still some way to go before proposals are finalised. During his visit to Israel last month, the Minister for the Middle East raised our concerns on implementing the Prawer plan for the Bedouin of the Negev, again with Benny Begin, the Minister responsible for the Bedouin community. This is an issue which Mr Burt and the British ambassador have raised on a number of occasions with the Israeli Government. We continue to encourage the Israeli Government and Bedouin communities to engage in further dialogue to find a lasting and satisfactory solution to this long-standing issue of unrecognised Bedouin villages.

These issues cannot, of course, be separated from the wider context of the Middle East peace process. The UK has long been clear that we support a negotiated settlement leading to a safe Israel, living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state. This should be based on 1967 borders, with agreed land swaps, Jerusalem as the shared capital of both states and a just, fair and agreed settlement for refugees. That is the only way to secure a sustainable end to the conflict and it has wide support in this House and across the world. We welcome the fact that Palestine is now a non-member observer state at the United Nations, but sadly the situation on the ground remains the same. The UK will work urgently with the US and EU to call for a new initiative to restart the peace process.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, made specific calls for a move towards potential sanctions. He spoke of the potential lack of initiative on the part of the US. While I accept and understand the noble Lord’s frustrations, I am sure that he will accept that it will be difficult to deliver and move forward with a two-state solution without the co-operation of the United States. The noble Lord, Lord Singh, raised the issue of criminal justice and detainees. The treatment of Palestinian prisoners forms part of our ongoing dialogue with Israel, including the issue of child detainees. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office funded a visit and report by a team of respected British lawyers, which included the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland. We have passed the independent report to the Israeli authorities and urged them to take forward the recommendations, including an end to shackling, night-time arrest of children and introducing audio-visual recordings of interrogations. These issues were again raised by the Attorney-General during his last visit to Israel in November.

My noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood spoke passionately and with great expertise and I agree that a settlement in the Middle East is in our interest. Instability there continues to have a destabilising effect on the region and the wider world. My noble friend Lord Palmer sought to bring an alternative view to the debate. He made an important contribution and I agree when he says that inequality must be tackled wherever and whenever it occurs. That point was also made by the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld. However, I am not sure that the reference by my noble friend Lord Palmer to the reasons for underachievement in communities in the United Kingdom bears any real comparison to the reasons for lower life chances among minorities in Israel. Indeed, my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece outlined the equality of opportunity that she as a member of a minority was afforded by the United Kingdom. She raised the important point that inequality is not intentionally perpetuated in the United Kingdom by policy decisions. I am sure that all noble Lords will understand my discomfort with the argument that serious discrimination elsewhere should be cited as a reason for justifying discrimination anywhere. The “it’s worse elsewhere” argument does not impress the Government much, because we will tackle inequality and discrimination of minorities wherever and whenever it arises.

To conclude, I thank noble Lords again for their participation in this thought-provoking debate. The situation of Israel’s Arab population is an important one, for Israel and for the region, with implications for Israel’s democracy and its relations with its neighbours. In line with the Government’s firm commitment to human rights, we will continue to support efforts, including by the Israeli Government and civil society, to address the problems of Israel’s Arab population and to build relations between the two communities.

North Korea

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice. I declare a non-pecuniary interest as the chairman of the All-Party Group on North Korea.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, we condemn North Korea’s satellite launch. This test of its ballistic missile technology is in clear violation of UN Security Council Resolutions 1718 and 1874. This provocative act will only serve to increase regional tensions and undermine prospects for peace in the peninsula. The UK is urgently consulting with the UN Security Council and we have urged North Korea to return to constructive international negotiations.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response. Is not this highly provocative act, coming a week before South Korea’s elections, an attempt to undermine any attempts at peaceful moves for reconciliation and progress? It is also a wicked waste of resources, estimated at some $800 million. That is enough to feed the entire population of North Korea for a year, in a country where malnutrition and starvation are commonplace. Will the Minister tell the House whether the Government have called in the North Korean ambassador and, if so, what will they say to him? Does she welcome China’s statement this morning, in advance of the Security Council meeting, that,

“Pyongyang should … abide by relevant UN Security Council resolutions … which demands the DPRK not to conduct ‘any launch using ballistic missile technology’ and urges it to ‘suspend all activities related to its ballistic missile programme’”?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with the noble Lord. I think that the timing of this testing is indeed important and relevant, so soon after the US elections and the transfer of power in China and just before the elections in Japan and South Korea. We are looking at the timing of this matter in some detail. I also agree with the noble Lord that for a country with extreme poverty to be using resources on developing what we feel to be further nuclear missile technology is not an appropriate use of funds.

I can confirm that the North Korean ambassador to the UK was called to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office today—indeed, possibly as we speak, he is in a meeting with the Permanent Under-Secretary.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that in a country where there is so much human suffering, it would behove North Korea rather more to make a priority of alleviating suffering, as well as seeking dialogue and reconciliation, and that this provocative act, as she described it, damages both those targets? Will she ensure that we do not lose sight of the human rights violations in a country where the United Nations estimates that 200,000 people are held in prison camps?

[Baroness Warsi]

The right reverend Prelate is right. In a country where both resource and energy could be spent on so much, whether on alleviating poverty or on human rights, this does not appear to be an act which is in the interests of its own people.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for raising the Question today, because we share the concern that this missile test will be destabilising regionally and for the world, and may well provide the grounds for a regional arms race and proliferation.

There have been reports today that part of the missile project has been conducted jointly with Iran. Have the Government any further information on that? Will the process that we will go through on the Security Council resolutions have the same characteristics as were announced about an hour and a quarter ago by the United States: that there should be a full head of steam behind the approach to the United Nations, potentially calling for similar sanctions to those in force on Iran?

[Baroness Warsi]

I can confirm, my Lords, that discussions are ongoing as to how the United Nations Security Council proceeds in this matter: whether it is by way of a further resolution or a presidential statement; whether further sanctions could be applied; and the nature of those sanctions. On the noble Lord’s question about Iran, I do not have any further information at this stage, but if it is something that I can write to him about, I will.

[Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, this has been the third serious provocation in less than four years by North Korea. The noble Baroness referred to the potential of the UN Security Council meeting. Will she assure the House that in the conversations that will be had with China with respect to potential Security Council sanctions against North Korea, the energy dependence of North Korea on China will be discussed, and that China will be pressed not to continue to provide oil to North Korea?

[Baroness Warsi]

I will certainly take on the views of my noble friend.

[Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank]

My Lords, having been to North Korea reasonably recently and had less than satisfactory conversations with politicians and the military there, I think that we ought to realise that the one thing that unites North Korea is hatred of the United States. We should do everything that we possibly can to try to get the United States to have a better dialogue with North Korea. Wherever you go in North Korea they remember the Korean War—the monuments are all around the country. It is taught to children from the very first year they go to school. I hope that we can try to influence the Americans to understand this, and they could make a big difference. The Korean War was 60 years ago.

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble and gallant Lord clearly speaks from experience in relation to his own visit and his own dialogue. I can only speak on behalf of our Government. Even in very difficult circumstances we felt it was appropriate to continue our dialogue and our discussions in whatever opportunities present through our embassy in North Korea.

[Lord Soley]

Can the Minister tell us a little more about the way we are trying to draw China into a longer and deeper discussion about how we deal with North Korea? China has an enormous problem on its own border, not just because of the military side but also because of starving refugees trying to get across that border. Surely a large part of this must be our attempt to get China more fully engaged in a longer-term proposal as this regime is one of the most awful and most dangerous in the world.

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with the noble Lord that China has to be part of the solution in relation to North Korea. The noble Lord will be aware that it is part of the six-nation discussions, which of course also include the United States, Russia and Japan.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the only long-term solution to the untold misery of the people of North Korea, and the ending of the serious menace that that state poses to regional and indeed world peace, is its absorption into South Korea? Does she agree that the Chinese would not necessarily be averse to that solution?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Warsi]

I think that the future of North Korea goes beyond the remit of this immediate Question.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, it is good news that the ambassador of North Korea has been called in. I have not heard many people mentioning South Korea—the Republic of Korea—in this exchange. Are Her Majesty’s Government speaking to the South Koreans to urge them not to try to take any kind of unilateral action and that whatever they do, it should be done through the United Nations?

[Baroness Warsi]

As the noble Lord will appreciate, this was a Private Notice Question. I am not sure if any discussions have taken place immediately, certainly within the past 24 hours, on the specific point that the noble Lord raises. We are, however, in general discussions with the South Koreans on this matter and, as I said earlier, they form part of the six-nation dialogue.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords—

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

Is it not the wish of the Government now to consult with America and China on how to deal with this situation? We cannot deal with it single-handed.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend is right. This is not a matter which the UK would seek to deal with in any way single-handedly.

UK-Israel Life Sciences Council

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Deech]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council is an excellent example of the opportunities for successful collaboration between our two countries. Since its launch in 2011, funding has been raised for five major research projects in regenerative medicine as part of the British-Israel research and academic exchange programme.

[Baroness Deech]

I welcome the Minister’s reply. She is aware, I imagine, that this work could produce great advances in stem cell and regenerative medicine, which may make a major difference in the treatment of diabetes, Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis. Does she therefore agree that this sort of work, and the search for cures, should rise above politics? Will she condemn the politicisation of academic exchange—for example, boycotts of scientific work—which could have so much potential for cures in this country?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, regenerative medicine, such as stem cell treatments, has the potential to play an increasingly vital role in delivering the next generation of healthcare, offering treatments or possible cures for areas of unmet medical need. Where there are areas of expertise, both in this country and in Israel—or in any other country around the world—it is important for that collaborative work to continue. When we are collaborating with countries that we consider to be friends and there are disagreements, we still have those discussions, for it is important that this work continues.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, does not the pre-eminence of Israel in this and so many other fields, and also the academic freedom enjoyed by universities in Israel, make nonsense of any attempts by our academics to boycott their counterparts in Israel? Will the Minister, as the noble Baroness suggested, roundly condemn any such attempts at a boycott?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the UK Government have made their position on boycotts clear. We do not hesitate to express disagreement with Israel whenever we feel it is necessary, but we also enjoy a close and productive relationship with Israel. It is this very relationship that allows us to have the frank discussions that are often necessary between friends. We believe that imposing boycotts would lessen that influence, not increase it.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that joint business initiatives between Palestinians and Israelis could play a valuable role in encouraging diplomatic engagement between both peoples? What role does the Minister consider that the Government can play in supporting such efforts, very much within what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has said about the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council’s work?

[Baroness Warsi]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council is a group of top scientists from both countries and includes Members of your Lordships’ House as well as, I think, four Nobel Prize winners. I think that all noble Lords would agree that we are at a very delicate stage in the Middle East peace process. As I have said from this Dispatch Box on many occasions in the past few weeks, 2013 will be a critical year. It is therefore important that we use whatever avenues we have to strengthen those diplomatic relations to achieve a peaceful resolution to a two-state solution in the Middle East.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that I would have no difficulty in answering my noble friend’s Question? I oppose fundamentally any boycotting of co-operation between academics and researchers in this country and those in Israel. However, does she not also agree that when the Government of Israel pay absolutely no respect to the views of the British Government on crucial issues of international policy, such as the legality of settlements, that is bound to have an effect on government-to-government relations, even if it should not have an effect on co-operation between scientists and academics?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am a firm believer that when matters are most difficult to discuss, that is the time to strengthen relationships further. We have never managed to resolve any matter by walking away from relationships. It is because we have strong relationships with Israel on a variety of issues that we can be so robust in our engagement. I hope noble Lords will agree that we have been robust in that engagement in the past week. Noble Lords will be aware that on Monday the Israeli ambassador was called in by the Minister for the Middle East to express our grave concerns about illegal settlements and the comments made by the Israeli Government.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, the medical field is a rich source of interaction not only between the UK and Israel but also, and perhaps more importantly, between Israel and the Palestinians. When I go round hospitals in Israel I see many Palestinian patients from both Gaza and the West Bank. Is the Minister aware of this?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Warsi]

It is not something that I am directly aware of, but I am grateful for the noble Lord’s information.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

If academic effort ought to be collaborative across international frontiers, and that is surely right, why do Education Ministers so frequently speak of British universities being in competition with universities elsewhere in the world?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am sure that noble Lords will agree that British universities are some of the best in the world. We therefore have to praise our competitiveness and competitive edge. Whenever I and my ministerial colleagues are in places around the world we say that we are in direct competition with other academic institutions, because we are trying to encourage citizens of those countries to choose Britain as a destination for study.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, the Minister said that the Israeli ambassador was called in to the Foreign Office about the seizure of Palestinian land by Israel. What was his response?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, that is probably slightly beyond the Question on the Order Paper. However, I can inform the noble Lord that the Minister made very clear to the Israeli ambassador Britain’s real concerns about the comments made about further settlements. I think that the ambassador was left with no doubt about the British Government’s strength of feeling on this matter.

[Lord Dykes]

Further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the main reasons why the Israeli Government—much to the disappointment of many Israeli citizens—repeatedly ignore the representations made by the UK and other western Governments on their action in the Occupied Territories is that the United States has exercised more than 30 vetoes since 1967 to stop Israel following international law? What do the UK Government think of American veto-itis in this matter?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government have made it clear that real progress has to be made next year, and that progress cannot be made without the US taking a lead. It has to get behind the initiative for next year. As I have said before from this Dispatch Box, this is a president in his second term, where it is right that he should prioritise these matters.

Ugandan Asians

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Popat on securing this debate and on his moving and personal speech. The noble Lord clearly embodies the Motion he is moving as he highlights the contribution of the Ugandan Asian community. Perhaps I may start where he finished. I say thank you to the noble Lord, Lord Popat, for allowing me an opportunity to respond on behalf of the Government to such a timely debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for an informative and enlightening contribution, teaching me much that I did not know. Few people alive in Britain 40 years ago will forget the scenes of thousands of Ugandan Asians being uprooted from their homes and arriving in Britain. In August 1972, 60,000 people were given just 90 days to leave their homes, their businesses and their country after a senseless decree by a brutal dictator, Idi Amin.

Looking back at that fateful time, we know that the UK acted swiftly. Amin announced on 4 August 1972 that there would be no room in Uganda for British Asians. Preparations began immediately in the UK for receiving those Ugandan Asians who had British passports. By 18 September the first 193 British Asians from Uganda had arrived at Stansted Airport. By 17 November more than 27,000 Ugandan Asians had arrived in the UK. In the first year—1972-73—a total of 38,500 Ugandans Asians came to Britain. I learnt about this event as history. It has been fascinating today in your Lordships’ House to hear of it as an event that so many noble Lords lived through.

My noble friend Lord Popat touched on the huge efforts to bring thousands of people to this country in that short period. He also mentioned the kindness that they were met with on arrival—of the charities waiting at Stansted and those who supported them, put them up and helped them get back on their feet. It was fascinating to hear from my noble friend Lord Dykes about his role as a local MP at that time, and it was interesting to hear from my noble friend Lord Popat about the late Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath’s photograph proudly hanging in the living rooms of Ugandan Asians. I wonder how many recent Prime Ministers can imagine that their image hangs on people’s walls and is held in such esteem.

I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack for his contribution both today and at the time, when he supported a Prime Minister who was, as he said, “doing the right thing”. While many Ugandan Asians were forced to leave everything behind, Amin could not force them to relinquish their strength, their skills and their flair as entrepreneurs. They brought them here in abundance and we see the evidence every day. These qualities were referred to by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood.

Just three months after the refugees had begun arriving, 1,000 employers had offered jobs to the newcomers. By 2002 it was estimated that Ugandan Asians had created 30,000 jobs in Leicester, which was one of the main cities where they settled in the early 1970s. In fact, Ugandan Asians now make up about 11% of employers in the city. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, referred to Leicester as “God’s own city”. I come from Yorkshire, which—I have it on good authority—is God’s own county, so I may not be able to agree with the noble Lord in his assessment of Leicester. However, we can both agree that the positives of Leicester, created both for and by Ugandan Asians, far outweigh what may have been some early mistakes.

Today we see Ugandan Asians making their mark in every corner of society: in politics with my noble friend Lord Popat and the honourable Members in the other place Shailesh Vara and Priti Patel, who was the first Asian woman elected for the Conservatives and whose parents came from Uganda; in journalism with the likes of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and Rupal Rajani; in sport with Mohamed Asif Din playing cricket for Warwickshire; in public services with Tarique Ghaffur becoming Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police; and of course in business with entrepreneurs such as Zul Virani of Cygnet Properties & Leisure plc, Rumi Verjee, chairman of Thomas Goode & Co, who established Domino’s Pizza in the UK, Naseem and Moez Karsan of Jordans Cereals, Rupin Vadera, CEO of First International Group, and many others, including Jaffer Kapasi, to whom my noble friend Lord Sheikh referred.

In 1997, recognising the vitality lost to Uganda, the President invited the Ugandan Asians to return home. While some families did, most chose to remain in Britain as integrated British Ugandan Asians—one of this country’s greatest success stories. Their story is a lesson to us today about the successes of integration. I recently spoke about the barriers that stop people integrating. I highlighted how much Britons miss out on by failing to utilise the talents of the ethnic communities. The figure was estimated at £8.6 billion a year, but I believe it could be a lot higher. I argued that ethnic minority communities were vital to our future. My noble friend Lady Thatcher once said that,

“a new resilience derived from diversity can only strengthen Britain”.

Today we are in a global race and Britain has a secret weapon: the races from around the globe that make up our diverse nation. These people have ingenuity, resilience, determination and links and networks around the world. As my fellow Minister Don Foster said in his speech in another place earlier today, the Government are committed to promoting and supporting successful integration, and to unleashing all that untapped talent by giving everyone the opportunities they deserve.

So what is the Government’s approach to integration? Our aim is robustly to promote British values such as democracy, the rule of law, equality of opportunity and treatment, freedom of speech and the rights of all men and women to live free from persecution of any kind—values that are clearly apparent in the Ugandan Asian community. It is these values that make it possible for people to live and work together, bridge boundaries between communities and play a full role in society. When there are also opportunities to succeed and a strong sense of personal and social responsibility to the society that has made success possible, the result is a strong community.

We must ensure that all sectors of our diverse society are contributing to the economic vitality of our nation. We want to create the conditions for everyone to play a full part in national and local life. I have said before that the things that stop people getting on are the same things that stop people getting on with each other. The noble Lord, Lord Singh, spoke of integration as being a two-way street. I agree, but we must also tackle the barriers to integration, and afford everyone the opportunities and values that we all take for granted.

The noble Lord, Lord Janner, gave a reflective account of what he understood by integration—to hold on to religion, culture and where you came from but adapt to the place where you now are and consider to be home. We recognise that integration is a local issue and the Government’s role in this approach is to facilitate and set the tone. I want to give you a flavour of the 30 or so projects we are supporting.

People of faith—Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and others—are called by their religious beliefs to serve their communities and neighbourhoods, and as a Government we are committed to promoting and celebrating this record of service. We also want to help link up the social action undertaken by different faiths to maximise the impact on those in need. So this year, to celebrate the Queen’s 60 years of service to the country, we facilitated the Year of Service programme, with each faith in turn hosting a day or days of volunteering and inviting people of other faiths to join in. Around 500 projects around the country have been part of the Year of Service and I pay tribute to all those who have taken part. We are looking for ways to harness this enthusiasm and help ensure that there are further opportunities for faith-based volunteering in future.

Separately, we continue to work with the Church Urban Fund on the Near Neighbours programme, taking advantage of the existing infrastructure and experience of the Church of England. We have invested £5 million over three years to support local projects in four areas of high deprivation, which bring people of different faiths together to improve understanding and improve neighbourhoods. So far, more than 300 local projects have received grants of up to £5,000 and there are also training programmes for community activities and faith leaders.

We recognise that English language skills are fundamental to people’s ability to participate in our society, to break down barriers and do all the everyday things that we take for granted. We have already provided more than £8 million to 35 ESOL providers—mainly further education colleges—in 19 areas of England with the highest demand for English language training, and we plan to do more to support those who most need to improve their English skills.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, referred to the issue of students. Let me be clear: there is no limit on students coming into this country. If you are a genuine student wanting to study a genuine course in a genuine university, this country is open to any such applications. The noble Lord also asked about the Asian cuisine sector. I can inform him that we are taking forward the Asian cuisine policy specifically to encourage home-grown culinary talent. We are offering support through the Department for Communities and Local Government and BIS to support training and scholarships to bring bright young people from all communities together to support this industry.

The noble Lord makes an important point, but I am sure that he would also agree that we sometimes find that the people coming to work in the communities where this demand is needed are the same communities where there are the highest levels of youth unemployment. It is therefore absolutely right that we invest in our own young people to take up these opportunities.

I am delighted to see so many events taking place to recognise the contribution of our Ugandan Asian communities. The India Overseas Trust and the British Uganda Asians Core Committee have arranged a number of commemoration events that have been taking place since September in London and Leicester. There was a speech by Shri Praful Patel in east London on 13 October and a thanksgiving event in Leicester on 16 October. Many further events are planned for the full year up to September 2013, as well as an exhibition organised by the New Greenham Arts Centre. I would urge noble Lords to participate.

I end my remarks by praising my noble friend Lord Popat for securing this debate. He has given us the chance to reflect on the enormous contribution of his community—our community—which turned dispossession into opportunity and tragedy into success; a community whom we proudly call the British Ugandan Asians.

Syria: Chemical Weapons

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, we share President Obama’s deep concerns about Syria’s chemical weapons. Any use of chemical or biological weapons would be abhorrent and universally condemned. Any use of chemical or biological weapons would make us reconsider our calculations and revisit our approach to Syria. We continue to work closely with our international partners, including the United States, to monitor closely developments relating to Syrian chemical weapons. We continue to urge the Syrian regime not to use these weapons and to ensure that they are secured.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Today the Secretary-General of NATO has echoed President Obama’s view that any use by Syria of chemical weapons would be completely unacceptable. Can the Minister tell us what discussions Her Majesty’s Government are having on this issue with the United States of America and within NATO, and will she confirm media reports that Foreign Ministers meeting today in Brussels are discussing the deployment of Patriot missiles into Turkey?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, a number of discussions are ongoing in relation to both the NATO formats and other bilateral and multilateral formats as well. As I reported to the House about a month ago, we are discussing a number of options in relation to Syria. We have always made it clear that we need to do more. The noble Baroness is aware of the challenges that we have had at the United Nations Security Council in this matter. However, in light of this recent information which has come to light, we are keeping our discussions under constant review.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, whatever the origins of the present problems in Syria, does the Minister agree that that country is now involved in a very dangerous civil war between Sunnis and Shias and that it would be disastrous for the British Government to become militarily involved in any way?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, we have always indicated that we must do all that we can to bring the fighting and bloodshed to an end. The noble Lord will be aware from my previous Answers that we have worked closely with the opposition, who have now formed a formal opposition, the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, whom we have now formally recognised. We continue to support the opposition in trying to bring this bloodshed to an end.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, Russia is the main supplier of weapons to Syria and the main protector of Syria in international fora. What evidence is there, if any, that Russia takes this matter seriously? Do the Government accept that evidence, and is there any evidence that Russia is seeking to restrain the Assad regime from the use of chemical weapons?

[Baroness Warsi]

We know that Russia shares our concerns about the use of chemical and biological weapons. We use all opportunities that we have in discussions with our Russian counterparts and, indeed, this matter was again raised in discussions that I had with the Russian ambassador only a few weeks ago. As for our concerns about where Russia has failed to act, specifically at the United Nations Security Council, the views of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister were very clear when he spoke at the United Nations.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, the Minister will recognise that if Patriot missiles are to be deployed, it must be solely for the purpose of ensuring the protection of Turkish citizens and the military situation in Turkey, and as the noble Lord, Lord Wright, has said, it must in no way become the thin end of the wedge, with our becoming militarily involved in that area. Does my noble friend welcome the fact that, as I understand it, President Putin is currently with Prime Minister Erdogan in order to discuss their relationship, and so that President Erdogan can give him a better understanding of Turkey’s position? We will see what Turkey can do to persuade the Russians of the importance of recognising the seriousness of the situation in Syria. It would be very welcome if Russia could be discouraged from giving too much support to the present regime.

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with much of what the noble Lord has said; he comes to this issue with great expertise. Turkey is an important ally, and in relation to the humanitarian effort and support for the refugees it has been on the front line of this conflict.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, Jihad Makdissi, the Syrian Foreign Ministry’s senior spokesman, said in July 2012 that chemical weapons would not be used against the civilian population. That statement is wholly unconvincing: Syria is one of six states that have not signed the chemical weapons convention; its biological weapons research is proceeding; and, of course, it was another Baathist regime which thought nothing of using chemical weapons against its own people. Indeed, some remains are being exhumed this week in a forensic effort at Halabja. Is NATO’s Secretary-General Rasmussen perfectly reasonable to argue that the use of chemical weapons is completely unacceptable and that it is right, if necessary, to seek the protection of Patriot missiles for Turkey? Is it not right to seek peace in the region, of course, but also to be prepared realistically for further atrocities by President Assad?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is right: it was earlier this year that the Syrian regime first accepted that it had these weapons. However, we treat with caution what has been said by spokespeople on behalf of the regime. The noble Lord may also be aware of reports this morning that Jihad Makdissi may have left the country. Of course, if it is true, we welcome that. There is some suggestion that he has defected from the regime, but it also raises concerns about assurances that he may have given in the past and about the current intentions of the Syrian regime.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, at the start of this difficulty I urged Her Majesty’s Government to focus less on identifying another side to give military support to and more on giving support to our allies in Turkey who are on the front line of this problem and are very familiar with it. One of the difficulties particularly about giving weapons to the opposition is that it deepens division and exacerbates the conflict. Many people from Syria have been fleeing into Turkey and there are many tens of thousands of refugees. Even the talk about chemical weapons will ensure that those numbers increase to a flood. I do not suggest that Turkey cannot economically cope with these refugees, but it has been made clear to me by the Turkish Government that they would welcome an input from Her Majesty’s Government in the form of political support in the difficulties Turkey faces in dealing with massive numbers of refugees. Is it possible that Her Majesty’s Government have already been discussing this; or if not, is it something that they will take up urgently?

[Baroness Warsi]

I can assure my noble friend that we are in discussions with Turkey not only on these matters but, indeed, about the financial support that DfID has been giving on the border and the expertise and political support that we have given to Turkey in this matter. Although I hear the points that my noble friend makes about supporting our allies in the region, it is also important that a solution for Syria is brought about by the people of Syria. It is right that when the people of Syria come together in the form of an opposition we recognise it. I can, however, assure my noble friend that we are not supplying any weapons to the opposition.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, this information comes to us as a result of surveillance by the American intelligence services. Can my noble friend tell us whether that surveillance has also confirmed that Syria is already using cluster munitions in this war? As cluster munitions continue to claim casualties for decades after their use, the casualties inflicted are far larger in number among the civilian population than among the forces engaged in combat, and the largest proportion of those casualties are children. Although chemical weapons are also horrid, they exact their price, move on and evaporate. In view of that, can we not also take as much notice of that horrible event as well?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point. Weapons of any kind—conventional, chemical or biological—can cause the destruction to which my noble friend refers. Chemical and biological weapons, as the noble Lord said earlier, are to be deplored.

Iran

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wood of Anfield]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what legal advice they have received on whether a pre-emptive military strike on Iran would violate international law.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the Government do not believe that military action against Iran is the right course of action at this time, although no option is off the table. We believe that the twin-track approach of engagement with Iran and pressure through sanctions is the best way to resolve the nuclear issue. We do not comment on legal advice and will not speculate about the legality of various scenarios.

[Lord Wood of Anfield]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. I have asked this Question because of a report in the Guardian which suggests that the Attorney General’s Office has argued internally in government that providing assistance to forces that could be involved in a pre-emptive strike would be a clear breach of international law. Will the Minister clarify the Government’s understanding of the principles that should inform any decision about assisting forces in a pre-emptive strike on another country?

[Baroness Warsi]

I can inform your Lordships’ House that we are not advocating military action against Iran. We continue to believe that the twin-track process of pressure and engagement offers the best hope of resolving the Iranian nuclear issue. In relation to legal advice, the noble Lord will be aware that it is not practice to inform this House or notify parliamentarians of specific legal advice, if any, that we may be obtaining.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords, leaving aside the legal considerations, given that a pre-emptive all-out strike on Iran would almost certainly be militarily unsuccessful, unite Iranian opinion behind the leadership and scupper any diplomatic talks, would not such a move be militarily inept, politically unsuccessful and diplomatically disastrous?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, my noble friend comes to these matters with great experience and expertise, and it is important that voices such as his are heard. However, I can assure him, as I can assure the House, that there is no plan whatever to take military action against Iran, although of course all options are on the table. We fundamentally believe that the best way to deal with this matter is through pressure and engagement, and that is the process that we have adopted.

[Baroness Deech]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that there is something that is perhaps slightly upside down about this Question and that what we should be worrying about is the legality of the preparation of nuclear weapons by Iran? No country should have to face the choice between obliteration and self-defence.

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Baroness raises an important point. We have concerns and it is because of those concerns that there have been successive United Nations resolutions on this matter over a number of years. It is why the international community wants Iran to be much more transparent and why we continue to engage and push for that transparency. We would all like to come to a negotiated solution.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, in her reply to my noble friend Lord Wood, she said that a pre-emptive was not justified “at this time”? Can she tell us when she envisages that such a strike might be justified?

[Baroness Warsi]

As I said at the outset, all options are on the table. It would be inappropriate for me to speculate on what scenarios may come forward in the future, and of course it would depend very much on the scenario we faced at the time. However, I can be clear that the Government are certainly mindful of their legal obligations within international law.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Does the Minister not agree that there would be no doubt whatever about the legal situation if Iran developed nuclear weapons? It would be illegal under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which was signed and ratified. However, rather than having the argument this afternoon about the legalities, is not the top priority, with the new American Administration, to revive the second of the two tracks—not the sanctions track, which must be kept up, but the track to talk to the Iranian regime? Would it not be worthwhile for the Government to take the view with the United States Administration that they should have some kind of bilateral contact with the Iranians before matters get to the point where they cannot be retrieved?

[Baroness Warsi]

Discussions about these matters are ongoing in a number of different ways. The noble Lord will be aware that the E3+3—Russia, China, the US and ourselves, France and Germany—have had four meetings since the beginning of this year; I think since February. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, is in the process of taking forward a further meeting, possibly before Christmas. We are absolutely committed to negotiating our way out of this matter.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Does the noble Baroness agree that, while the centuries-old legal principles in respect of pre-emptive strikes remain valid, they have been transformed in practice by the speed of warning and response in the nuclear age? Although we, along with much of the security establishment in Israel, may be highly critical of a possible strike, should we not at least acknowledge the dilemma of the Israeli Government, who are faced with President Ahmadinejad, who has said he intends to destroy Israel and may very well soon have the capability to do just that?

[Baroness Warsi]

Iran’s development of military nuclear power is a matter of concern for many more countries than just Israel. It is why we have United Nations Security Council resolutions in relation to this matter and it is why we have tried to negotiate with Iran over a number of years. It is important to continue those negotiations and discussions. These are concerns that we in this country have too.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

Does the Minister agree that only a few weeks ago Mr Soltanieh, the Iranian ambassador to the IAEA, specifically indicated that Iran was now open to the possibility of bilateral discussions with the United States, and that President Obama has reflected this in his recent views expressed within the United States? Finally, according to recent polling by the Knowledge Forum, a clear majority in the United States is now clearly in favour of discussions and diplomatic relations between the United States and Iran, beginning as soon as possible.

[Baroness Warsi]

Of course, we raise this matter in discussions with the United States but it has to be for the United States to take these discussions forward with Iran if it feels that that is the right way forward. As we do with a number of countries, we encourage it to take all opportunities to have these discussions. The findings of the poll that my noble friend refers to very much reflect the opinion of all of us in this House, and indeed the public, that the better way to resolve this matter is not through military action.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, are there any circumstances whatever where a first strike with nuclear weapons could be morally justifiable?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not enough of a military expert to start making these decisions. I do not think that this is a matter for moral judgment; it will be based on any scenario that presents itself at the time, and it would be wrong for me or the Government to speculate at this stage.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, should there not be the same kind of sanctions against all countries who have nuclear weapons? Is it not the case that these sanctions hurt the poor in Iran while the elite are totally unaffected?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point. When we look at sanctions, we are extremely aware of the need to have appropriate exemptions in place that cover humanitarian assistance, including medicines. It is important to remember that what we are concerned about is the development of nuclear weapons. We have concerns about the regime but not about the Iranian people. They are not the people we want to suffer as a result of these sanctions.

European Council: December Meeting

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their priorities for the December meeting of the European Council.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the December European Council will cover economic policy, including economic and monetary union and banking union, as well as defence enlargement and foreign policy. The UK will seek to ensure the integrity of the single market in relation to banking union and economic and monetary union. We will press for further progress on growth and work to ensure that the defence strategy reflects UK priorities. Enlargement is dependent on the December General Affairs Council.

[Lord Liddle]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. Why have the British Government adopted a completely different approach to a banking union from that of a fellow euro-out, Sweden, which is run, we are told, by David Cameron’s favourite conservative European Prime Minister? Sweden has engaged with the negotiations on a banking union, whereas Britain appears to be trying to reintroduce, for the first time since the introduction of the single market, some kind of veto on financial services legislation. Does the noble Baroness think that that strategy is likely to meet with more success than it did in the negotiations on the fiscal treaty last December, or are the Government once again shouting from the sidelines to try to appease the unappeasable?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government’s strategy on this matter is one that reflects the best interests of Britain. I am sure that noble Lords on the other side of the House agree that it is important that when the Prime Minister goes to Europe, he acts in the best interests of this country and negotiates on the basis of that strategy. The UK does not use the euro, and we have been clear that the UK will not be part of any banking union or fall under the jurisdiction of the ECB. However, that does not mean that we do not continue to push for further liberalisation of the single market.

[Lord Roper]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the priorities of our right honourable friend the Prime Minister should be to ensure that any discussions or negotiations about institutional changes should take place at the level of the 27, even if they concern the eurozone, in order to maintain the integrity of the single market?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an extremely important point, and the Government are with him on this matter. We are not part of the euro, but it is important that structures are not put in place that allow the euro countries to effectively exercise a block vote and therefore make decisions that could impact on us within the single market.

[Lord Soley]

Although the economic issues just discussed are probably the most important, can the Government also look at the way in which these international companies use the different tax regimes within the European Union to avoid their responsibilities in individual countries, and also perhaps at the semi-monopolistic practices of such companies? It is fairly easy—indeed, one might say pleasant—to boycott Starbucks, but Google and Amazon are a lot more difficult and are semi-monopolistic. It is something the EU should take a look at.

[Baroness Warsi]

The question goes beyond the immediate Question but I am sure the noble Lord will agree that the Government have been deeply committed to making sure that those who should pay tax do pay tax. We have invested more in HMRC to make sure that those who should pay tax in this country do pay tax in this country.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Should the Government not tell the European Union that they are in favour of a much looser arrangement between the countries of the European Union, and less centralisation? While the Prime Minister is over there, perhaps he could also have a word with the Prime Minister of Poland, who seems to imagine that the average cost of the EU budget paid by British people is only £35 a year, whereas it is actually £156.

[Baroness Warsi]

I will certainly feed that fact back in. I agree with the noble Lord about less centralisation. Of course we believe in power being nearest to those who are affected by those decisions. However, I think the noble Lord would agree with me that in relation to the European Union, we want a trade area but it is also important to be part of the group that makes the rules in relation to that trade area.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, will the Minister take the opportunity to ask the Prime Minister to raise at the European Council the way in which three private companies—the credit rating agencies based in the United States—have such an undue and malign influence over the economy not just of the United Kingdom but the whole of Europe? I hope she will take some advice from her Treasury colleague on this. It is about time that we took collective action so that we in Europe are not dominated by these American private companies.

[Baroness Warsi]

The EU is engaged in ongoing discussions on work in relation to better regulation of those very institutions.

Palestine: United Nations General Assembly Resolution

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to respond for the Government to this debate, brought by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about the discussions that we have had with the Palestinian leadership in light of the Palestinian resolution at the UN General Assembly last week. It is an important and timely debate and I welcome it. I know the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a matter of great interest to the House and, as always, involves great emotion and sincerity of views on all sides. Achieving a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of this Government’s top international priorities.

The UK has long been clear that we support a negotiated settlement, leading to a safe and secure Israel living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state, based on the 1967 borders with agreed land swaps, with Jerusalem as a shared capital of both states and with a just, fair and agreed settlement for refugees. That is the only way to secure a sustainable end to the conflict, and it has wide support in this House and across the world.

However, there has been a dangerous impasse in the peace process over the past two years, as referred to by my noble friend Lord Alderdice. The pace of settlement building has increased, and we have seen new and concerning reports of this in recent days. Continued rocket attacks on Israel and continued settlement building have resulted in frustration and insecurity deepening on both sides and the parties have not been able to agree a return to talks.

We are grateful to Egypt, the United States and the UN Secretary-General for their role in bringing about a ceasefire in Gaza last month. We now need to build on this to bring about a lasting peace, including, as my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury said, the opening up of the blockade in Gaza for trade as well as for aid; and, of course, also an end to the smuggling of weapons. The crisis in Gaza and tragic loss of Palestinian and Israeli life show why the region and the world cannot afford a vacuum in the peace process.

The frustration felt by many ordinary Palestinians about the lack of progress in the peace process is wholly understandable. We condemn illegal settlement activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, because it threatens the very viability of the peace process and a two-state solution that we all support. After many decades, the Palestinians still do not have the state they aspire to. That is why we have consistently asked Israel to make a more decisive offer to Palestinians than in the recent past, and have also called on Palestinians not to set preconditions for negotiations.

We agree with my noble friend Lord Palmer that the parties must get back to the negotiating table. Only today, our consul-general in Jerusalem conveyed this view to the chief Palestinian negotiator. The only way to resolve the dangerous impasse in the peace process is a rapid return to credible talks. This is the Government’s guiding principle, and it was this concern that determined the Government’s approach to the Palestinian resolution at the UN General Assembly last Thursday. Nevertheless, we respect the course of action chosen by President Abbas. There is no doubt that he is a courageous man of peace. Let me be clear: we want to see a Palestinian state and look forward to the day when its people can enjoy the same rights and dignity as those of any other nation. That is why we stress the urgency of negotiations leading to a two-state solution.

Noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater, raised questions and concerns about the assurances that the Government sought from President Abbas and the position we took in relation to the vote. The Government, I suppose, judged that these assurances would help facilitate a return to negotiations. However, our priority now is to try to restart those negotiations. We call on all parties to show the political will necessary to achieve this. We will redouble our efforts to restart the peace process and continue our strong support for the two-state solution. As I have said to this House on many occasions, and indeed only recently, 2013 will be a crucial year for the Middle East peace process. We have urged Israel to avoid reacting to the resolution in a way that undermines the peace process and a return to negotiations. The Foreign Secretary spoke to the Israeli Foreign Minister on Friday and the Israeli Defence Minister on Saturday. He made clear that we would not support a reaction that sidelined President Abbas or risked the collapse of the Palestinian Authority.

We are therefore extremely concerned by the decision of the Israeli Cabinet to approve the building of 3,000 new housing units in illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. This Government, along with our European partners, have consistently made clear that settlements are illegal under international law and undermine trust between the parties. If implemented, these plans would alter the situation on the ground on such a scale that it would make the two-state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, increasingly difficult to achieve, if not impossible. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford was right to raise settlements as a pivotal issue. Such plans undermine Israel’s international reputation and create doubts about its stated commitment to achieving peace with the Palestinians. We need urgent efforts by the parties and by the international community to achieve a return to negotiations, not actions that will make that harder.

In all the conversations that the UK has had with Palestinian negotiators, and those that the Deputy Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have had with President Abbas in the past week, relations have been excellent. That deep friendship will continue. The financial and political support that the UK gives, with very strong cross-party support, to the Palestinian Authority, which is among the foremost in the world, is understood well by the Palestinian Authority and will, of course, continue. We want the Palestinian Authority to succeed and we believe that President Abbas is the best interlocutor that Israel will have to bring about peace. We continue to be in regular contact with the Palestinian Authority, and officials in our consulate-general in Jerusalem had meetings in Ramallah today to reinforce the UK’s firm commitment to and support for the Palestinian Authority. My right honourable friend Mr Burt is planning, possibly this evening or tomorrow, to speak to the Palestinian chief negotiator.

We have been clear that we deplore the recent decision of the Israeli Government to build 3,000 new housing units and to unfreeze development in the E1 block, and the confiscation of this month’s clearance revenues. This threatens the viability of the two-state solution. On Saturday, the Foreign Secretary publicly called on the Israeli Government to reverse this decision. In common with steps taken by other European partners, including France, the Israeli ambassador to London was formally summoned to the Foreign Office this morning by my right honourable friend the Minister for the Middle East, who set out the depth of the UK’s concerns about the recent Israeli decision.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked what representations had been made to Israel on the confiscation of customs revenues. The Minister for the Middle East conveyed our serious concerns about this decision to the Israeli ambassador this morning. The national security adviser, Sir Kim Darroch, reinforced this concern to his Israeli counterpart when they spoke this afternoon. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, also raised the question of what consultations we have had with the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton. We have had a number of consultations with key international partners since Friday, including with the office of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and with the US Administration. We note the strong statements of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and Secretary of State Clinton on these issues.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice raised important points based on greater experience. I am grateful for his contribution and also for the tone of his contribution. It is of course right that a regional initiative is important. Egypt’s success in relation to the Gaza ceasefire is just one great example of this, but I am sure my noble friend will agree with me that the US must now step up to the mark, as real progress will be made only with its positive involvement.

The noble Lord, Lord Janner, is right when he says that the future has to be agreed through diplomacy, not rockets. The recent conflict in Gaza left 160 Palestinians and six Israelis dead. That is not the way forward. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, raised important issues, noting that in order to lay the foundations for future agreement, we must understand history. I agree that an even-handedness in this matter is as much in the interests of Israel as of the Palestinian people. The noble Lord, Lord Williams of Baglan, also raised the issue of settlements. I hope he feels that I have dealt with that already.

Palestine is now a non-member observer state at the United Nations but, sadly, the situation on the ground remains the same. The only way to give the Palestinian people the state they deserve, and the Israeli people the security they are entitled to, is through a negotiated two-state solution. That requires both parties to return to negotiations, Israel to stop illegal settlement building and Palestinian factions to reconcile with each other.

The past month has highlighted the fragility of the situation in the Middle East and the coming year will prove crucial if peace is to be achieved. Urgency is required to ensure that we grasp the opportunities that will be presented. We encourage the US, with the strong and active support of the UK, the EU and the international community, to show decisive leadership and do all it can in the coming weeks and months to drive the process forward.

If progress on negotiations is not made next year, the two-state solution could become impossible to achieve. That is why the Foreign Secretary has said to the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, that such an effort would need to be more intense than anything seen since the Oslo peace accords. We are ready to throw our support behind this to find a solution to the conflict before it is too late.

BBC: World Service

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government by how much the BBC World Service budget has been reduced in the current financial year; and what plans they have for funding the World Service in the future.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the budget for the BBC World Service for the 2011-12 financial year was just over £255 million. It was reduced by £11 million to £244.2 million for the current financial year and will reduce by a further £4 million to £240 million in the financial year 2013-14. From April 2014, the BBC World Service will be funded from the licence fee instead of from FCO grant in aid.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but at a time of phenomenal uncertainty in the world can it really make sense to cut the BBC World service by 16%, leading to the loss of 32 language services and 650 jobs and an estimated fall in audiences of some 30 million people? In particular, should we not think again before savagely reducing medium-wave transmissions to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and Israel at a moment when the region is in total crisis and the voice of reason is in such short supply? In this 80th anniversary year of the BBC World Service, surely it is a moment to celebrate its extraordinary achievements in upholding human rights, democracy and the rule of law rather than so short-sightedly diminishing this country’s influence right across the globe.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord raises a number of important issues. First, I assure him that it was decided to cut only five languages as overall languages in the comprehensive spending review. As regards the specific countries to which the noble Lord referred, I am sure he will be comforted by the fact that additional funding of £2.2 million per annum was put forward specifically to ensure that funding was maintained for the BBC Arabic Service, a language which I am sure the noble Lord will agree is exceedingly important in light of current events.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, has the National Security Council looked at the balance in terms of soft and hard power and the importance of the BBC World Service, bearing in mind that for a minute amount of money this absolute jewel in our soft power crown is being damaged so badly? All of us who have been involved with these issues around the world over many years realise that this is really damaging.

[Baroness Warsi]

Again, the noble Lord raises an important issue. I am not sure whether it has been discussed at the National Security Council, but I can check that and write to him. I completely agree with him that the BBC World Service is, and remains, an important part of our soft power. Indeed, YouGov has recently said that the UK ranks extremely highly in relation to soft power. We are known as a soft power superpower. However, I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that at times priorities have to be assessed and that these changes in priorities have been made at various times. Indeed, under the previous Labour Government in 2005, it was announced that the Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Greek, Hungarian, Kazakh, Polish, Slovak, Slovene and Thai language radio services would end.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that, while a balance has to be struck between financial viability and high-quality independent and impartial journalism, the balance must ensure that broadcasting to the most sensitive areas of the world, such as China and autocratic regimes in the Middle East, where the public do not have access to impartial information, must remain a priority? Can she assure the House that after 2014 the Foreign Secretary will retain his role in setting the strategic objectives of the BBC World Service?

[Baroness Warsi]

Yes, I can assure my noble friend, and indeed the House, that the Foreign Secretary will still have oversight post-2014. He will retain his current role of agreeing objectives, priorities and targets. Specific approval will be required from the Foreign Secretary to open or close a specific language service. I completely agree that it is important to ensure that we continue to use this soft power mechanism, but I am sure that my noble friend will also agree that more and more people are looking to BBC world news and television and looking online to obtain this information.

[Baroness Coussins]

My Lords—

[Lord Soley]

Does the Minister accept that China and Russia in particular are rapidly on the rise with international services—Russia is now one of the fastest growing—and that if we do not emphasise the BBC and put the funds into it, particularly in the Middle East area, then frankly we are putting at risk not just our reputation but, more importantly, the dissemination of accurate views about crucially important events world wide?

[Baroness Warsi]

There are a number of ways in which the UK can continue to exercise its soft power; the BBC World Service is one of them. I am sure, however, that the House will also agree that extending our embassies and our consulates and having extra staff—extending our diplomatic network—are all part and parcel of ensuring that we continue to play an influential role in the world.

[Baroness Coussins]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Glenarthur]

My Lords, while sharing many of the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, raised, my noble friend mentioned the internet. Can she say to what extent the internet has provided an increasing advantage of opportunity for people all over the world to listen to the very valuable product of the World Service?

[Baroness Warsi]

I cannot provide my noble friend with specifics, but he is aware that, certainly in relation to the Arab uprising and the Arab spring, the internet played a vital role, both in relation to accessing traditional services such as radio, but also in relation to the blogosphere in the way in which campaigns were run and the Arab spring came about.

[Baroness Bakewell]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Coussins]

My Lords, the Minister said that only five foreign language services had been cut, but I understand that all radio broadcasting in seven languages has been cut as a result of the financial constraints. Is the Minister satisfied that the commercial sponsorship being sought—so that some of this at least can be restored, especially in Arabic and Russian—is on track and that, if it is successful, commercial factors will not compromise the independence and impartiality of the World Service?

[Baroness Warsi]

Every indication from the BBC Trust shows that this is a service to which the BBC is committed. We are confident that the BBC licence fee will continue to support the BBC World Service, but I will write to the noble Baroness in relation to the specific point on languages.

[Baroness Bakewell]

My Lords—

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, the decisions that were taken in 2005 about reducing the number of eastern European language broadcasts, largely because there had been a great development in the democratic media in many of those countries, released money for the Farsi language service and for the 24-hour Arab service. I am very familiar with the decisions taken at that time. Would the noble Baroness agree that the cutting of those services, to the extent that they are being cut—and we should be under no delusion: they are being cut back—is going in the opposite direction of identifying where there are problems and addressing them?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord may well be comforted by the fact that, despite these budget reductions in the current financial climate, the FCO has been able to maintain the World Service’s share of the overall FCO budget at, or at about, the level that it was in 2007-08.