Personal Independence Payments
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, we have heard from several Peers from the Labour Benches on this Question and we have not yet heard from a Liberal Democrat Member.
Lord German
My Lords, the loss of a Motability car can mean the loss of independence for a disabled person. Is my noble friend confident that the personal independence payment assessors are prompting claimants as to whether they can walk more than 20 metres safely to an acceptable standard repeatedly and in a reasonable time, which are the crucial criteria put into statute by this House? Unless these criteria are followed, thousands of disabled people will not be eligible for a Motability car and those being retested may lose their car and their independence.
Select Committee Reports: Government Responses
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Lord Lexden
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to improve the quality and timeliness of their responses to reports from Select Committees of this House.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, departments aim to provide considered responses to Select Committee reports within two months of their publication, as set out in the Osmotherly rules. Where delays occur or where a committee is dissatisfied with the quality of the response it has received, I stand ready to assist in taking up individual cases with my colleagues in government.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Would my noble friend accept that, in the interests of the House as a whole, the Government might strengthen their commitment to their own undertaking, included in the handbook,
“to respond in writing to the reports of select committees, if possible, within two months of publication”?
Is she aware that, when responses arrive late, they are not always accompanied by the serious explanation of the delay that politeness demands? Finally, as regards the variable quality of the responses, may I invite my noble friend to read the short, rather perfunctory response to the Constitution Committee’s very substantial report on the constitutional implications of coalition government, for which the committee waited nearly 10 months?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I certainly understand the frustration expressed by my noble friend with the Government’s response on this occasion. I am pleased that the Minister for the Constitution apologised, quite rightly, to the committee for the prolonged delay. On that particular report, because it covered and inquired into the inner workings of coalition government, I do not think it is that surprising that the Government wanted to give it careful consideration before responding. However, I disagree with my noble friend’s description of the Government’s response. I know that the committee was disappointed with some specific aspects and has written further to the Minister concerned, but I think that the report, as a whole, was adequate. Certainly the delay that was experienced in the context of this report is not systemic in the Government’s responses to Select Committee reports.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, is not any response to a coalition government fairly simple: that we do not want another one?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I think we are all going to fight the election to win.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, the Minister is no doubt aware that a regular scorecard is now published on failures to fulfil the scrutiny procedures of the European Union. There is a scorecard of scrutiny overrides allocated by department. Would she consider carefully whether a similar regular scorecard could be published on reports of this House, with the identification of the government departments that are in arrears? This scorecard approach gently brings pressure to bear on people in a way that has been quite useful.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The noble Lord raises an interesting point. One of the things that I have been looking at in preparing to respond to this Question is whether records are even kept in the House itself as to how timely the Government respond to reports. We would benefit if we could improve record-keeping.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest, in that the report from the committee that I had the privilege of chairing on the Inquiries Act has been outstanding since 11 March 2014. However, there is a good reason for that, as we were not happy with the response. We did not feel that it was good enough. We thought it could be significantly improved upon. The Question starts on the basis of quality and timeliness, but would my noble friend agree that quality is the most important thing here? Timeliness is a wonderful thing, but the quality of the report is what we really want.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend makes an important point. I believe that the quality of government responses to reports is the most important thing. I also say to the House that the written responses to Select Committee reports are not the only way that we should judge how the Government are responding to inquiries undertaken by Select Committees. If you look, for instance, at the Mental Capacity Act inquiry, which was another post-legislative scrutiny report, that committee made some very important recommendations that the Department of Health has responded to and acted on. Some changes that are important to the people affected are now taking place.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I notice that one of the responses that we are waiting for is on a report of the Communications Committee on broadcast general election debates, which was published on 13 May last year. Are we still awaiting the government response? The election is only a few weeks away, so I would have thought it would be timely for us to have a debate—or is the Prime Minister frit?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I think the noble Lord is stretching the point here. The report he highlighted as one that has not yet been responded to has not been raised with me. If the relevant committee wanted to raise that as a concern with me then clearly I would raise it with my colleagues in government.
Lord Inglewood (Con)
My Lords, as chairman of the Communications Committee, might I point out to the noble Lord opposite that the report he referred to specifically said it was not looking for a response from government? However, earlier today I made a request through the clerk that we should have a debate on this report.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am glad for my noble friend’s clarification that the committee had produced a report that did not require a response from the Government, and I look forward to discussing further his request for a debate.
Lord Walton of Detchant (CB)
My Lords, would the Minister accept that the Select Committee structure is one of the great strengths of this House? I served for many years on the Science and Technology Select Committee and had the privilege of chairing several sub-committee inquiries. One of those, relating to research in the NHS, led to the Culyer report, then to the establishment of the National Institute for Health Research and now has led on to the development of the massive Crick centre for research in the centre of London. Can the Minister give us any inkling as to the extent to which Select Committee reports in this House have led to major changes in government policy over the last few years?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As the noble Lord knows from the exchange he and I had last week in the debate about the effectiveness of this House, I acknowledged then his strong point that the work of Select Committees in this House is an incredibly important part of our work here. On the Science and Technology Committee, during this Parliament there has been some action by the Government in response to implementing long-term science capital investment, which was a recommendation that came out of that committee.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, can my noble friend indicate whether she might have a look at the experience of the other place and consider whether the authority of our Select Committees might be greatly enhanced if the chairman were elected.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend raises an interesting point, but I do not think that it has been raised particularly extensively by other noble Lords. Probably, one of the reasons for that is because we are all very clear in this House that all the chairmen of our Select Committees, regardless of which part of the House they are from, act very independently.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the debate around this Question has been slightly confused? We appear to be discussing, on the one hand, whether the Government have responded to a Select Committee report and, on the other, whether that committee report and the response have been debated in this House. For the benefit of those of us who have forgotten, can the noble Baroness explain to the House the procedure whereby, once the Government have responded, a Select Committee report comes forward for debate?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The decision on when to hold a debate about a Select Committee report is taken very much as part of a discussion between the Whips’ Office and the Committee Office. Some Select Committees decide to hold their debates before they have had a response from the Government and some decide that they want to wait until after the Government have responded. There is no hard and fast rule on that.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend, as Leader of this House, tell her Cabinet colleagues that we feel that many of them do not take this House seriously enough and do not pay enough attention to what this House says either in reports or on the Floor of the House?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I would like to think that, in the responses that I have already given to some of the questions today, I have demonstrated that the Government have taken the reports from Select Committees very seriously. There has been action as a result of them. So far as concerns my colleagues in government giving evidence to committees, last year alone nine Cabinet Ministers gave evidence to Select Committees of this House, including the Chancellor, the Home Secretary, the Justice Secretary, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Scotland Secretary, the Transport Secretary and the Environment Secretary. Tomorrow the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary together will give evidence to a Select Committee here. We take this House very seriously, and we are right to do so because the work of the Select Committees is excellent, as is demonstrated all the time.
Business of the House
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Baroness Massey of Darwen and Lord Turnberg set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.
House of Lords
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to be able to respond to today’s debate and that the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, has given us this opportunity. We have had some very wise contributions from all sides of the House today, and I have listened carefully to all noble Lords who have spoken.
I shall briefly refer to two absent noble Lords. The first one I refer to in the interests of the coalition. Noble Lords have referred to the absence on the speakers list of any Members on the Liberal Democrat Benches. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was due to speak, but at the last minute a personal matter required him to have to scratch from today’s debate. It is important that that is noted.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I absolutely accept that if the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, had something else to keep him from coming, he should be excused and there is no criticism of him for that, but there are 101 other Liberal Democrats.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I do not want to get into any more debate on the Liberal Democrat Benches’ representation; I just wanted to make that point.
My noble friend Lord Wakeham was also very keen to contribute to the debate today, but he is unwell. I know that he would have made a very important contribution had he been here.
At the heart of all the contributions that have been made to this debate is a shared goal: to make this House the best, most effective Chamber possible. Of course I understand the position put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and some others: that our size affects our ability to be effective and may risk our reputation. However, whether or how to reduce the number of Peers attending the House each day is not where I want to start my contribution to the debate.
I want us not just to be effective but to be seen to be the most relevant British institution operating in our world today. In my eyes, regardless of debates about the composition of this House and its future, we exist today as an unelected House with an important job to do. It has been evident from today’s contributions that we all want this House to do that job as best we can. To achieve our goal, I believe that we should be driven by our purpose as a House. That was a point that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and my noble friend Lord Wei made. My definition of purpose is not just what we exist to do—I think that we all agree that we are a revising Chamber seeking to help to make good laws and inform public policy. My definition of purpose also includes the answer to the question: why is that important? For me, the answer to that is this: it is to give people confidence in the laws that we are all required to live by. Giving the people we serve confidence in the laws that Parliament makes is what informs my views and my contribution to the debate today.
In the context of today’s debate, the main thing I would highlight that I think that we should not change, because it is a valuable part of our fulfilling our purpose, is the part-time nature of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, and my noble friend Lord Cope mentioned that. For me, “part time” means that we have a duty to come to this House when we have something to contribute because of our expertise and outside experience, especially on legislation. However, the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, was right to emphasise the important work of the Select Committees, too. I would put legislation at the top of the list of our important work, but Select Committees are a valuable part of what we do here as well.
Because Members are not expected to attend every sitting, it is open to us—that is, noble Lords other than those of us who are a member of the Government or on the Front Bench—to pursue other interests, activities and professions alongside our work in the House. That allows us to draw upon some of the most accomplished individuals in this country and bring a wide range of expertise, experiences and perspectives to our debates. Those insights, and those strong and independent voices, come from all around this House. My noble friend Lord Forsyth said this and is himself evidence of it: those of us who sit on the political Benches, as well as the Cross Benches and the Bishops’ Benches, bring an independent mind, experience and expertise to the work of this House.
The noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, paid tribute to experts such as those from the medical profession who are Members of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, made a similar point but it is important for us to remember that the Cross Benches are not the only places where we find expertise in this House. I add that the kinds of expertise and experience which we often point to as the best examples of the membership of this House are not the only kinds which are valuable. During the Recess I had the great pleasure of listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, speak on the “Jeremy Vine” programme on Radio 2. She was explaining to the listeners how she, as a former deputy secretary of the Transport and General Workers’ Union, made sure that she remained up-to-date in her knowledge of the manufacturing sector by going out to visit lots of factories for her own contribution to the work of this House. My point is that we have in this House experts and people with valuable experience who are working hard to maintain the relevance of that experience. Whatever changes we consider when we look at the way in which we operate, it is important to be careful that these features of our membership are protected and encouraged because they are what makes us different and a valued part of the parliamentary process.
To be clear, as my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord MacGregor said, I, too, think that we need to keep refreshing our experience and expertise with new Members. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, referred to the moment of wonder when he was first appointed to this House and seemed to suggest that, in recent years, it was being lost a little from your Lordships’ House. I reassure him and all noble Lords that the people who are joining our House now are just as filled with excitement about their own opportunity to make a contribution to our work as the noble Lord would have been at the time when he joined. I have the great pleasure of meeting a lot of the new Members just before they arrive—certainly, the ones who sit on my Benches—and I continue to talk to them.
For me, the real issue is not about the absolute numbers of Members eligible to participate in our work but, as the noble Lord, Lord Williams, suggests in his Motion, about attendance. However, like my noble friends Lord Tugendhat and Lord Cormack, and other noble Lords, even on that matter I do not believe that it is strictly about numbers either. It is about how we make sure that Members play their part at the right time. Although each party and group rightly has its own requirements for attendance, which is proper and goes to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, what is really important is whether each of us can say that we have done our bit—that we have used our valid experience and expertise at the right time, in the public interest, to help us as a House to fulfil our purpose.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The Minister has stressed the concept—I find this completely new; it was not given to me when I was appointed—that this is a part-time job. It may be possible to be a part-timer if the rest of your work is in London, but if you come from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen or Carlisle how can you do something up there and come down here day in and day out? It is an entirely London-centred concept. I hope that she will rethink this, and go back to whoever advised her on it and say that it is just a lot of nonsense.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I disagree with the noble Lord about that. I think that this is a part-time House.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
When I say “right time”, I mean that it does not have to be all the time. Some of the rarest contributors can be the most valuable Members of this House if they exercise self-restraint, a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland.
I am not going to comment on each proposal put forward today and I am certainly not going to rule anything out before there is an opportunity for proper consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, urged me to take this matter seriously and I do, but I also say to noble Lords that we must guard against sounding too defeatist in the way that we speak about this House and the number of Peers who attend. Some noble Lords have used what I thought was rather colourful language, which I would not deploy myself, to describe this House. Right now we are doing a good job. We remain a strong and considered revising Chamber, one where a noble Lord, whether a Minister or a member of the Back Benches, will always have to make a compelling case to win an argument and the support of the House. The Opposition waste no opportunity to highlight that the Government have been defeated over 100 times during this Parliament, so I was a little surprised at the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, represented what has happened over the past few years. The other point that is worth making is that in terms of the effectiveness of the contributions made by noble Lords in our debates—
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Would the Minister not agree that coalition government changes the dynamic of the second Chamber? We can trade statistics but there is no doubt about it: the Government are winning more votes than the previous one did, and that is clearly because the two government parties together have a large majority over the Opposition. That was not the case under the previous Government. It makes a difference.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
We do not have a majority because there are Cross-Benchers in this House, as the noble Lord knows well. The point that I was going to add was that we should not measure the effect of the contributions made in this House just by government defeats. A huge number of government amendments are made to legislation as a result of dialogue with noble Lords during the passage of legislation.
Clearly we cannot keep growing indefinitely, and that is one of the reasons why we have introduced a massive change in this Parliament: Peers are now able to retire permanently. That change reinforces our ability to give the public confidence in the laws that Parliament makes. Just as we should expect Members to contribute on occasions when they are especially well placed to do so, so we are now able to support noble Lords who wish to retire when they feel that that is no longer the case for them. Some noble Lords have argued against an age limit; some, like my noble friend Lord Naseby, have spoken in support of one. Consideration about retirement is not just a matter of age; it is also a matter of contribution, a point made by those speaking today.
I am not here to prescribe how or whether a contribution can be specified, because retirement is a deeply personal decision. We were all moved by Lord Jenkin’s valedictory speech, and I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, quoted from it today. However, if we focus on the purpose of the House of Lords and are committed to increasing our effectiveness as an unelected Chamber, we should be able to support each other in deciding when it is time to retire.
I turn to some of the points that noble Lords made about the need for restraint in new appointments. As has been acknowledged, the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, focuses on attendance, not appointments. That said, the Prime Minister has indeed exercised his prerogative power to recommend appointments in a restrained way. I dispute what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, said, not least because my noble friend Lord Strathclyde asked me to confirm whether there are only 34 more Members on the four main Benches than there were in 2007. That is incorrect. In the light of the retirement of Lord Jenkin, today the number is 33. It has gone down.
The idea of a moratorium on appointments was put forward by some noble Lords. As I have already said, and this has been supported by noble Lords today, it is right that there continue to be new appointments to this House so that we may bring fresh views and perspectives to our work. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, referred to vote share and the coalition agreement. That was in the coalition agreement. It is and has always been a general aim, not a mathematical equation, but it is worth pointing out that during this Parliament the Prime Minister has appointed 47 Labour Peers as well as Conservative and Liberal Democrat Peers.
Some noble Lords raised questions about the pressures on our practices, procedures and resources. Of course we should try to mitigate them. On specific matters of procedure and practice, I set out my views in some detail during the short debate last month led by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, so I shall not repeat them, except to say that I disagree with him about the role of the Lord Speaker. I believe that it is important that we properly respect and uphold our self-regulating nature because it is again about being different from the Commons, and the fact that we are different adds value to what happens in the parliamentary process.
I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, has spoken to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, who has indicated that he is willing to provide the undertaking that the noble Lord is seeking, namely that that committee should consider the issue he has raised with a view to reporting back to the House. I think that that is an appropriate next step as part of an ongoing discussion. My noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord MacGregor, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and others suggested an options paper by the Clerk to inform the discussion of the Procedure Committee. A range of ideas has been put forward today by my noble friends Lord Jopling, Lord MacGregor and Lord Wei, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and others, so there is quite a lot to feed in to any discussion that may take place in the Procedure Committee. I would like that discussion to be informed by our purpose of ensuring that there is public confidence in the laws of the land and in what Parliament decides and to consider how we can be clear about what we expect from each other in contributing to that purpose.
I want to be specific in response to any suggestion that taxpayers’ money might be made available to encourage Members to retire. That remains very much a red line for me. That is not something that I want to support at all, for the reasons that other noble Lords have given today. The noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, asked about mechanisms, and the noble Lord, Lord Williams, was clear when he said that any mechanisms that we consider will be voluntary.
My noble friend Lord Cope is right that our powers to self-regulate go far, but they do not override Her Majesty the Queen’s power in the Life Peerages Act to create peerages for life with rights to sit and vote or the Prime Minister’s right to put forward to Her Majesty recommendations for appointments. However, while I am on the matter of regulation, I can respond to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, who asked about legislation to accelerate the appointment of women Bishops. A government Bill on that had its First Reading in the Commons just before Christmas, so that is proceeding.
Lord Clark of Windermere
My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to my question about voluntary mechanisms. We do not have the power to stop Members coming to the House, but do we have the power to stop them receiving allowances for overnight stays and for travel?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
We have, but we would have to agree on that—it would have to be put to the House to decide, not the Procedure Committee on its own.
I will rapidly conclude. As for the idea of a constitutional convention—which was put forward by several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes, Lord Maxton and Lord Luce, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and my noble friend Lord Cormack—I refer all noble Lords back to the answers I gave when I repeated the Statement on devolution just before Christmas. We have not ruled out a constitutional convention, but certainly the Conservative part of the coalition thinks that other, more immediate issues should be addressed first.
Overall, this has been a very interesting debate which continues an important conversation. However we move forward, this is our core purpose, which we must keep at the forefront of our minds. If we do that, we can retain what is best about this place and make the right changes so that we increase our effectiveness and are the most relevant British institution, serving the public and national interest today.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, will the Procedure Committee—to which the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, are being submitted—report before the end of this Parliament?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am sorry; I was just looking at a note that has been passed to me. I think the noble Lord asked whether there would be a report from the Procedure Committee before the end of this Parliament. That is a matter for that committee. I will correct one thing that I said a moment ago in response to the noble Lord who asked me about allowances. That is a matter for the House Committee, not the Procedure Committee. Apart from that, my point was correct: that would ultimately have to come to the Floor of the House in any case.
Lord Williams of Elvel
Can the noble Baroness please clarify the question of when she thinks the Procedure Committee should report? Either it should report before the end of this Parliament, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said, or it goes into the Greek kalends. Which is the preferred alternative?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I do not have a preferred alternative. We have demonstrated today, as I said before, that we all care about this House and our ability to do our job very well. A huge number of proposals are coming forward from noble Lords about how we can do our job even better than we do it now. We should make decisions about that in a considered and proper way. To rush any decisions about changes would not be the best way for us to fulfil our ultimate and shared goal.
Implications of Devolution for England
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the Command Paper on the implications of devolution for England, which the Government are publishing today. The House will recall that on 19 September my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced the establishment of a commission, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, to take forward the commitments to further devolution in Scotland made by all three UK pro-union parties during the referendum campaign.
On 27 November, after the publication of the Smith commission’s report, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland announced to the House that draft legislation to implement its recommendations would be prepared by 25 January and presented in a Bill to Parliament following the general election. The Prime Minister also said that a new and fair settlement for Scotland must be accompanied by an equivalent settlement for all parts of the United Kingdom. This is a fundamental issue of fairness for all the people of the United Kingdom. Just as the people of Scotland will have more power over their affairs, so it follows that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland must have the opportunity to have a bigger say over theirs.
The Wales Bill has completed its final stages in Parliament, and the Secretary of State for Wales is leading a cross-party process to move towards a fair and lasting devolution settlement for Wales. The Northern Ireland Secretary is hosting talks on a number of issues, including reforms to make the devolved institutions work more effectively. Depending on progress, in particular putting the Executive’s finances on a sustainable long-term footing, the Government stand ready to introduce legislation to devolve corporation tax, with a view to seeing it on the statute book during this Parliament.
Today’s Command Paper covers proposals on decentralisation within England and proposals on English votes on English laws. It sets out the position of each of the coalition parties, just as the Command Paper on Scotland did for the three parties. We invited the Labour Party to submit its own proposals for publication, but it declined to do so.
The Scottish Secretary has been able to work in Scotland on a cross-party basis. The talks held by the Secretary of State for Wales have been on a cross-party basis. It is only on matters concerning England that the leadership of the Opposition is hostile to cross-party talks. However, the contribution to our thinking by leaders of local authorities, including from the Labour Party, has been welcome and constructive.
There has been a significant shift in where power resides in the United Kingdom in recent years. Since 2010 the Government have undertaken the most radical programme of decentralisation within England in a generation. In addition to the significant new powers for local communities, there are now five combined authorities, 15 directly elected local authority mayors, a metro mayor in London, and plans for a metro mayor to be elected for Greater Manchester in 2017. The Regional Growth Fund, growth deals and the Growing Places Fund have been made available to all local areas. This summer the Government set out plans to create a ‘northern powerhouse’ and consulted on Northern Futures. Taken together with what we are doing on science and transport infrastructure, this Government have the most ambitious and substantial plan for the north of England of any Government in decades.
Both the parties of the coalition wish to continue this major progress towards decentralisation of power in England, and their ideas are set out in the Command Paper. The Liberal Democrat Party called in the Command Paper for a process of ‘devolution on demand’ to be delivered through an English devolution enabling Bill, under which areas would be able to demand powers from Westminster and Whitehall from a menu of options. This would include many powers devolved to the Welsh Assembly, although the exact powers available would be subject to cross-government confirmation, and the UK Government would retain a list of reserved powers. In order to claim powers, a given area would need to demonstrate that it met tests around geography, population, competence, local democratic mandate, a fair electoral system and a transparent and accountable governance structure.
For our part, the Conservative Party wishes in the next Parliament to continue with the empowerment of neighbourhoods and parishes in England, as well as to see the type of arrangements being created for Greater Manchester agreed elsewhere. This includes a large further increase in neighbourhood planning, greater local accountability and use of direct democracy, such as local referendums on local issues. In addition, Conservatives want to work with local enterprise partnerships and councils to promote jobs and growth, to help local authorities join up different public services, and to work with local business to support jobs and improve quality of life locally. We strongly believe that localism must not be a way of imposing new taxation, and we believe that the Westminster Parliament is and should remain the English lawmaking body.
Decentralisation within England cannot on its own create fairness for England as a whole on policies decided at the UK level but which apply only in England. On the crucial question of the implications for England of devolution in the rest of the UK, fairness for all the people of the UK now requires this issue to be addressed decisively.
Devolution to other parts of the United Kingdom has created the situation in which MPs representing constituencies outside England may vote on legislation which does not affect their constituents, while English MPs are not able to influence these policies in other nations where they are devolved. Both coalition parties believe that this so-called West Lothian question needs to be addressed, and have put forward their proposals in the Command Paper.
The Liberal Democrat Party believes that English MPs at Westminster should have a stronger voice and a veto over English-only issues. Its preferred method of addressing this would be for there to be votes for Westminster elections using the single transferable vote. However, accepting that there is currently no cross- party consensus for this—which is certainly true—they instead propose that the composition of those serving on any new stage, for example a ‘Grand Committee of English MPs’, should reflect the votes of the electorate in England. The Liberal Democrats also believe that measures which unambiguously affect England only, and which are not devolved below the Westminster level, should be subject to a new parliamentary stage before Third Reading or equivalent, composed of MPs proportionately representing the votes cast in England to allow them to scrutinise proposals and employ a veto if they so wish.
The Conservative Party believes that equalised constituency sizes remains necessary to fairness for all voters. We have set out three options for resolving the West Lothian question in the Command Paper. All of them represent a stronger and more binding version of ‘English votes for English laws’ than the work of the McKay commission, but all rest on the guiding principle set out by McKay, that,
‘decisions at the United Kingdom level with a separate and distinct effect for England (or for England-and-Wales) should normally be taken only with the consent of a majority of MPs for constituencies in England (or England-and-Wales)’.
The first option is to reform consideration of Bills at all stages, and was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, in 2000. All stages of legislation relating only to England, or only to England and Wales, would be determined by MPs from England or from England and Wales. The key advantage of this proposal is its simplicity and the absence of any need for any new stages in the legislative process.
The second option is to reform the amending stages of Bills, as proposed by my right honourable friend the Member for Rushcliffe in 2008. Under this proposal, all amending stages of legislation relating only to England, or only to England and Wales, would be determined by MPs from England and Wales. Committees would be in proportion to party strength in those countries. The key advantage of this proposal is that it allows MPs from England, or from England and Wales, to have the decisive say over the content of legislation while not excluding other MPs from other stages and not introducing any new stages to the legislative process.
The third and final option is to introduce a reformed Committee stage and legislative consent Motion, providing an effective veto. Under this option, the Committee stage of legislation relating only to England, or only to England and Wales, would be considered only by MPs from those parts of the United Kingdom. Report stage would be taken as normal by all MPs. An English Grand Committee would then vote after Report stage but prior to Third Reading on a legislative consent Motion. English or English and Welsh MPs would therefore be able to grant their consent to or veto a Bill, or relevant parts of it. Such decisions would have the same status as those of the Scottish Parliament on devolved matters. The key advantage of this proposal is that it would give English, or English and Welsh MPs, a crucial say over the content of legislation and a secure veto over its passing, while not excluding other MPs from its consideration in the full House of Commons. The Conservatives and Liberal Democrats both invite comment and views on all the options in the Command Paper.
For hundreds of years, the constitutional arrangements of the UK have evolved successfully through taking account of the needs in each century and decade for the giving or withholding of consent. The pursuit of devolution in recent years has been based on the importance of establishing the consent of parts of the UK for the policies particular to them. The next stage of our constitutional evolution must involve that principle of consent being applied to all parts of the United Kingdom.
Whichever of these options is ultimately decided on must be clear and effective in producing fairness for the whole United Kingdom. The Government encourage debate so that this matter can be fully considered and resolved, for the long-term strength of the UK. It is an issue that too many people have avoided for too long, and that can no longer be put aside”.
That concludes the Statement.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for her response to the Statement. We want to approach this whole issue of devolution in a way that enables us to share some common ground. We were pleased that that was possible in Scotland and that all the pro-union parties worked together. All the parties—the Conservatives, the Lib Dems and the Labour Party—are committed to meet the commitment set out by the Smith commission.
As was made clear in the Statement that I repeated, we were very keen to have the Labour Party contribute to our Command Paper, which we published today, so that we could continue that cross-party approach. Therefore, it is a little surprising that the noble Baroness referred to our “behind closed doors” approach, given that the leadership of the Labour Party were invited to contribute to the process, but so far they have sadly declined to do so. However, that is not the case with many Labour leaders of local authorities in all parts of England. My right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons has met Labour leaders of local authorities from Birmingham, Cardiff, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Sheffield and Liverpool over the past few weeks to talk to them and to hear what they have to say on further devolution within England following the Scottish referendum.
The noble Baroness referred to her party’s proposals to extend greater powers to cities and towns. We have done a tremendous amount during the lifetime of this Parliament to extend greater authority and autonomy to all parts of England. England is far more decentralised now than it has been previously, and is far more decentralised than Scotland and Wales.
The noble Baroness spoke about the McKay commission’s report and its proposals for English votes for English laws. As she rightly said, the McKay commission made several proposals, and the Labour Party is putting forward one of those as its preferred option. That is clearly worthy of consideration. However, since the McKay commission did its work, greater powers have been devolved to Scotland. Therefore, it is our view that we need to consider the current situation, which has led to both parties in the coalition putting forward something which goes beyond what is proposed by the McKay commission.
The noble Baroness mentioned a constitutional convention. The Command Paper sets out the arguments for a constitutional convention and the Government remain open to receiving ideas on it. However, the establishment of a constitutional convention cannot be used as an excuse for delaying what needs to be done now.
The noble Baroness also referred to reforms to the upper House. There was an opportunity earlier on in this Parliament for reforms to the upper House. Members of the opposition party—and, indeed, Members from other Benches in the other House—decided that that Bill should not come forward. Reform of the House of Lords should not be linked to something that is urgent, needs to be done now and addresses a fairness issue to do with English votes for English laws.
No one is arguing that the work of the Smith commission should be delayed for a constitutional convention. No one is suggesting that the work of the Silk commission should be delayed for a constitutional convention. Similarly, a resolution on English votes for English laws cannot be delayed for a constitutional convention. The issue of English votes for English laws must be resolved. There are some options now for resolving it; and it is right that we debate those options.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
Could I make it clear that we want the McKay commission’s proposals to be put forward into a constitutional convention? This is not the be-all and end-all, and we see what the noble Baroness and her party are doing as being strictly for political advantage. In terms of the constitutional convention, this is not the long grass. We want a time- limited constitutional convention that would look at all these things, not in a piecemeal way but in a proper and dignified way for the future constitution of our country.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am a little bit baffled. A lot is happening in terms of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the Opposition are not arguing that those changes should be delayed for a constitutional convention. Arising from the result of the Scottish referendum is the need for us to address an important issue, which is about English votes for English laws. That can be addressed quickly and there are some options for consideration. It comes off the back of several reports on the issue of English votes for English laws over many years. This is not about ruling out a constitutional convention or any other bigger issues that might arise in due course; but the issue of English votes for English laws needs to be addressed right now. It can be addressed and it should not be delayed.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, we now have 20 minutes of questions. I remind noble Lords that we should have brief interventions and questions to enable the largest number of people to contribute.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, as the Statement reported, the Liberal Democrats made a positive contribution to the Command Paper before us, setting out clearly our plans to strengthen devolution within England, so that, for example, the people of Yorkshire and Cornwall could have proper assemblies with proper local legislative and fiscal powers, akin to those now available in Wales. Does my noble friend agree that the first priority should be decentralising and devolving power out of this building, and out of Whitehall, and then having a constitutional convention that could look at how different representative bodies in the UK could interact with each other in those new circumstances and with the UK Parliament? Only then will the true, consequent remaining extent of the “English question” be clear. In other words, does she not agree that we should devolve power radically within England first, and worry about rearranging the Westminster deckchairs later?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
This coalition Government have done a huge amount to decentralise within England. Much has been changed during our time in office. The key difference between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats in terms of further decentralisation is that we, the Conservatives, support giving far more accountability and authority to people wherever they live, but what we do not support is the delegation of lawmaking out of Parliament. We believe that there should be one place for lawmaking in England—and that is Parliament.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, I respectfully invite Her Majesty’s Government not to panic in this matter. There are some 120 Members from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, leaving some 530 Members from English constituencies. Therefore, first, does the noble Baroness agree that there is no immediate danger of English interests being mercilessly swept aside constitutionally? Secondly, will she undertake not to take any steps to create either an English Parliament or an English Parliament within a Parliament unless and until a full, detailed and mature study of the constitutional position has been conducted, thus avoiding some of the ludicrous matters which were brought before the House in the last four years?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
We have no plans for an English Parliament. That is not contained in the Command Paper before us. We have options for addressing the very important issue of English votes for English laws, which has become more pronounced now that more powers have been devolved to Scotland. Clearly I listen very carefully to any advice that I receive from the noble Lord, but this matter has been around for a very long time. There has been a huge amount of thinking on it and we have now got to the point where we have some clear options, one of which we should implement.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, will the noble Baroness answer one simple question? Why cannot a constitutional convention now be set up to look at matters in a coherent way instead of the piecemeal way set out in the White Paper?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I just do not accept the argument that the noble Lord puts forward. The point is that a huge amount of change is under way in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a single urgent issue in England that needs addressing. This is not about ruling out a constitutional convention in the future, but that should not delay us in addressing something that needs to be addressed straight away.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that these proposals, together with the proposals for further devolution in Scotland, are regarded by many people outside this place as having been conceived in panic, delivered in haste and furthered by political expediency? Will she not therefore reconsider the Government’s view that there should not be a constitutional convention to look at this matter on the basis of consensus between the parties, which is the basis upon which we should make constitutional changes? The only beneficiaries of this approach have been the nationalists, who are surging in the polls, and this is not a moment to divide the unionists.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I shall try to make this as clear as I can. We are not ruling out a constitutional convention at all. There are clearly matters that some people would like to see addressed in a constitutional convention. We are saying that, in the light of greater devolution to Scotland, there is a need for us to address the issue of English votes for English laws. This is not being rushed into; Parliament has been looking at it for a very long time. We have some clear options, which we are inviting people to debate. We feel that that should happen without delay and that bigger issues beyond that should not be a reason to delay getting on with something that is very important to the people of England.
Lord Soley
The Minister does not understand the force of the argument for a constitutional convention, which is that by going on with this piecemeal approach, the Government are playing into the hands of the separatists. I want to see the United Kingdom stay together but this is not the way to do it. We need a constitutional convention and we need it soon in order to deal with relationships between and within the four parts of the United Kingdom. Working things out on the back of a fag packet plays into the hands of nationalists.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I understand the noble Lord very clearly and I hope that he understands me. I am saying to him that I disagree because a lot of change has already happened and is happening. No side of this House or of the other place is calling for those changes to be delayed for a constitutional convention. The Labour Party has been a part of the changes which have been made and which are going through in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a specific issue that we want to see addressed in England. We absolutely do not rule out a constitutional convention where other matters can be considered. I can see why it is important and that is why we are not ruling it out.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
My Lords, when legislation is approved in the other place from which Members of Parliament from Scotland and Northern Ireland are excluded and that legislation then proceeds to your Lordships’ House, will Northern Ireland Peers and Scottish Peers also be excluded?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
No, they will not. No one in this House represents an area of the United Kingdom. We are all United Kingdom Peers; we do not have representative responsibilities, so the change in the Commons will not affect the way in which we do our business.
Lord Elis-Thomas
My Lords, I am very happy for you to return to England as soon as possible. I have one simple question for the Government. It seems from some references in the Leader of the House’s Statement in the other place that he is inventing a new polity—a place called England and Wales. What is the constitutional basis of this place, if it ever existed in history, which I doubt, being a sort of cultural historian? Since devolution, it is very clear that every piece of legislation which appears before this House, or indeed within the devolved Parliaments, is defined according to its competence and its territorial application. Therefore, there is no place called England and Wales. Legislation is either for the United Kingdom, for England, for Northern Ireland or for Scotland. The Government must be clear about that. I do not wish to go back to the Tudor period.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I do not think that anybody is asking the noble Lord to go back to the Tudor period. As set out in the Command Paper, there are various points of detail that will clearly be discussed further before any changes are implemented in the way that the other place operates. A Bill, when it comes to this House, will be dealt with in exactly the same way as it is now.
Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)
My Lords, there are many matters of constitutional importance on which consultation should take place. Certainly I favour consultation whenever possible. It has to be said that 15 years of constitutional devolution have led to an extremely unsettled position in terms of the integrity of the United Kingdom, possibly because there was not wide consultation and asymmetrical measures were being introduced. There is a burning need to rebalance the constitution of the United Kingdom; we cannot go on as we are. I welcome the proposals that have come forward from my noble friend and the fact that a range of options is included. That opens the case for further consultation, and I hope that the Labour Party will take part in that consultation. There is absolutely no reason why it should not. This matter stands on its own, and it is important to rebalance, in the interests of England and of the United Kingdom, the way in which we govern ourselves. I particularly welcome the reference to an English Grand Committee. I assure my noble friend that the changes we made to the Scottish Grand Committee in the 1990s demonstrated the almost infinite flexibility of such a body. It could play an important part in the future of government within England and, indeed, within the United Kingdom.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am very grateful to my noble friend for all the points that he has made and for his ongoing constructive contribution to this process.
The Countess of Mar (CB)
If I may correct the noble Baroness, there are in fact five Peers of Scotland in this House, all of whom are hereditary Peers, and I happen to be one of them.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The noble Countess is absolutely right. I was not trying to suggest that there are no such Peers here in this House. The point I was making was that Peers do not represent a particular part of the country. We are all Peers representing the public and the national interest at large.
Lord Richard
My Lords, with great respect to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, what she is saying is that English laws should be made by English votes only in the House of Commons, and that once they come up to this House, which is also a legislative Chamber, anybody—whether they are Scots, Welsh, English or Northern Irish—is entitled to express a view and vote on issues that may not affect them. What is the logic in that?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, we in this House are contributing to legislation now on an equal footing regardless of where we are from. We do not represent a particular part of the country. I come from Beeston and am very proud of that, but I do not represent Beeston. I am here as a United Kingdom Peer, as is the case for all of us.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
Would my noble friend pay particular attention to the intervention of my noble friend Lord Lang, who I think spoke extremely wise words on this matter? I thought that the most striking point of the Statement was the extraordinary contrast between the long list of Labour leaders of major boroughs and major cities in this country who take an entirely different view, as far as I can see, from the unfortunate position of the Opposition.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am very grateful to my noble friend for that point because he is quite right. It was very welcome to see just how many Labour leaders of local authorities within England wanted to contribute to this process. We are grateful to them and we hope that the Labour leadership will take its lead from them.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, does the Leader of the House accept that for many of us there is a difference between the current Government’s decentralisation programme, where Labour leaders of local authorities are working with the Government of the day, and genuine devolution? I nail my personal colours to the mast of regional devolution in England. I do not believe that the people of the north-west of England, where I live—I accept that I do not represent them—should have their health policies determined by the predominance not only of the Westminster Parliament but of London and the south-east. We have different problems; we need devolution. I want to see a proper examination of that before something is cobbled together as a matter of urgency. What has changed for the Conservative Party that it wants instant action now?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
It is open to the noble Baroness to put forward her ideas for matters that should be considered as part of a constitutional convention; that has not been ruled out. However, it is worth reminding your Lordships that regional devolution by way of regional assemblies was tried before and was not successful; it was not welcomed by people in regions. However, we have ensured throughout this Parliament that we have given greater authority and control to all parts of England than had happened before, and we want to see more of that.
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD)
My Lords, the truth is that we are now three-quarters of the way to a federal system in the United Kingdom, and it is urgent that the matter is resolved now, by whatever means, rather than at a point of crisis, when a decision may be taken to impose on England something which is deeply unpopular in England and for which England has not voted but for which a majority has been created through a United Kingdom vote, when those other members of our federal United Kingdom would not have the same imposed on them as a result of devolution. We may have walked there by a long and winding path, but this matter now needs to be resolved—and it is better that it should be resolved thoughtfully than in a crisis.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
Well, I do not recognise the description of our current situation that the noble Lord is giving. We know that lots of changes have happened. The particular issue that we feel is necessary for us to address has been around for a long time. A lot of thinking has been put into this over many years. We now have some simple options before us, but, as I keep saying, that does not rule out a constitutional convention on bigger issues, if that is what people feel is necessary.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)
Does the Minister have any worries that this way of proceeding will add to the raggedness of our constitutional settlement and lead to asymmetric forms of devolution, and confuses devolution and delegation? This is an area where many of us fear to tread without great care. Surely, from the start, a constitutional convention, discussion, collaboration and cross-party agreement are all needed.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am grateful to the noble Baroness and I know how distinguished she is in terms of her very thoughtful approach to matters of great importance. But I can only say to her what I have said to other noble Lords. We are not ruling out the possibility of the kind of approach that she is promoting, but we do not believe that doing that should delay us from addressing a fundamental issue of fairness that now exists which we feel that it is very important to address.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, is the Leader aware that the Prime Minister’s pledge on the morning after the referendum about English votes for English laws, and the proposals in this White Paper, are in fact an answer to the SNP’s prayers and will reinforce it considerably? Will the Leader also explain why in chapter 2 of the document Decentralisation and Localism in England: Achievements to Date, there is no mention of the singular achievement of the Government in imposing the biggest ever cuts on local government funding to the extent that even Conservative councils believe that by the end of this decade they will be able to provide only statutory services—if them alone?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As the noble Lord knows, what we have done in this Parliament and through this Government is given greater power to local authorities in terms of control of their own finances. They are now in a much greater position than they were before to make the kind of steps that are about real change in their approach to providing services for local authorities.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, would not my noble friend accept that with three months left of this Parliament and a general election, with all the frenetic atmosphere that goes with it, this is no time to rush a constitutional settlement? The constitution is not the possession of any party: it is the responsibility of us all. I urge my noble friend, while I agree with my noble friend Lord Lang that it is good that there are options in this paper, not to attempt to rush pell-mell before the general election. In the calm—I trust—atmosphere that will follow, we have to try to reach a solution where we do not have two classes of Member of Parliament at the other end of the corridor.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, my noble friend was a Member of the other place and I was not, but there are already two classes of MPs in the other place. We have at the moment MPs for Scottish constituencies who are not able to vote on matters that affect their constituents, but they are able to vote on matters that affect people in England. We feel that this is a fundamental matter of fairness. It is not something that we are rushing into. This issue has been around for a long time. Five reports have been published on how to address this very important matter over the past 15 years. In the past few weeks, we have done some further thinking and put forward some options. I urge all noble Lords interested in this to come forward with their views—but this is something that it is now right to address.
Business of the House
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 16 December to allow the Taxation of Pensions Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.
Syria: Refugees
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords—order, order—we have not heard from the Liberal Democrat Benches so it is the turn of my noble friend Lady Falkner.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, we are coming to the fourth anniversary of this conflict. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, the Minister said that the Government do not believe in keeping the Assad regime in place—
Business of the House
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 9 December to enable the Motions standing in the name of Lord Lipsey to be taken before the Second Reading of the Childcare Payments Bill.
Business of the House
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 9 December to allow the Childcare Payments Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I do not want to detain the House, but may I ask my noble friend if there will be another opportunity to debate the Autumn Statement? Does she really think that it is acceptable for speeches to be limited to five minutes on such an important subject?
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston)
My Lords, yesterday we repeated the Autumn Statement and had an opportunity for questions to my noble friend on that Statement, and now we have the debate today. We have had frequent debates on the economy, and I would expect to see that continue. I am not in a position to confirm when there will be another debate, but I am pleased to see that there is a great deal of enthusiasm for today’s debate. I wish everyone participating in it a very successful debate.
Business of the House
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the debate on the motion in the name of Viscount Younger of Leckie set down for today shall be limited to 3 hours and that in the name of Lord Moynihan to 2 hours.