EU Council

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, yesterday British forces concluded their combat mission in Afghanistan. I know that the thoughts of the whole House will be with the friends and families of every one of the 453 British soldiers who lost their lives in this long campaign. We will never forget their sacrifice for us. When al-Qaeda attacked the twin towers in 2001 it planned that attack from Afghanistan, operating freely under the Taliban regime. Our incredible service men and women have driven al-Qaeda out and they have built up and trained the Afghan forces, none of which even existed in 2001, so that the Afghans can take control of their own security. I said when I became Prime Minister that I would bring our combat troops home. Today, they are coming home and we should be incredibly proud of all that they have done to keep our country safe.

With permission, I would like to make a Statement on last week’s European Council. Before turning to the issue of our contributions to the EU, let me first update the House on three significant agreements where the UK played an important role: on Ebola, on climate change and on the situation in Ukraine.

First, on Ebola, the world is facing one of the worst public health emergencies in a generation. Playing our part in halting the rise of this terrible disease is not just about meeting our moral obligations; it is also the single most effective way of preventing Ebola infecting people here in the United Kingdom. That is why Britain has been making such a major contribution to the international response, pledging more than £205 million, and sending troops and health workers to West Africa. However, it also means that Britain must use its influence to get other countries to step up their contributions, too.

Before the Council I wrote to all my fellow leaders, urging that we significantly step up our collective response. At the meeting, member states agreed to my proposal to more than double the EU effort by pledging more than €1 billion in assistance. The Council also agreed to increase the deployment of medical and support staff in the region and for member states to guarantee proper care for our courageous health workers.

Secondly, it is vital that Europe plays its part if we are to secure a global deal on climate change in Paris next year. One of the problems we have faced in the past is that instead of just setting a binding target on carbon emissions, the EU has set binding national targets on things such as renewables and energy efficiency. These diktats over how each country should reach its commitments can pile up costs on our industries, consumers and families who do not want to pay any more on their energy bills than they have to. They also create an unnecessary trade-off between cutting carbon emissions and promoting economic growth. At this Council, we have chosen a different path. We have reached a landmark commitment to deliver at least 40% reductions in greenhouse gases by 2030. We rejected any new binding national targets for renewables or energy efficiency, giving us full flexibility over how we reduce our carbon, allowing us to do so at the lowest possible costs for consumers and businesses. This is another example of where British leadership has helped the EU to step up and meet its international obligations, while at the same time protecting our national interest by keeping energy bills down for businesses and Britain’s hard-working families.

The Council also discussed the situation in Ukraine and relations with Russia. We welcomed the Minsk agreement between Kiev, Moscow and the separatists. However, the Council was also clear that much more must be done to implement that agreement before the EU should consider lifting any of the sanctions put in place in response to the conflict and in response to Russia’s actions. The Council welcomed the parliamentary elections that took place in Ukraine yesterday. It made clear that it would not recognise the outcome of any elections organised by the separatists outside the framework of Ukrainian law.

Let me turn to the issue over the UK’s contributions to the EU. I want to be clear with the House how the demand for the UK to repay money has come about and why the scale and timing of this demand is unacceptable. In an organisation like the EU, if your economy grows a little faster or a little slower, then there can be adjustments every year to the amount you pay. In some years the UK adjustment has been negative, as it was in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. In some years we contribute a little bit more. This happens every year. When the UK is growing at 3% a year, and many European economies are growing much more slowly, it would not be surprising to find Britain being asked to pay a little bit more this year. What has never happened is for €2 billion to be demanded. This represents around 20% of our net contribution to the EU last year. Member states collectively are being asked to pay almost four times the highest gross figure requested in recent years.

It is simply not acceptable for the EU to make these kinds of demands, and to do so through a fast-tracked process lasting barely a month. Two billion euros is bigger than many countries’ entire gross contributions. It cannot just be nodded through by the EU bureaucracy as some kind of technical adjustment. It is British taxpayers’ money and it is not small change—it is a vast sum. So this has to be examined in detail and discussed properly. That is why I interrupted the Council meeting on Friday to seek an urgent resolution to this issue. I was supported by the Prime Ministers of Italy, Holland, Malta, Greece, and others. The Council agreed that there would be an urgent discussion with Finance Ministers to resolve this issue going forwards.

It is not just about the scale of the money being demanded; it is also the timetable. The Commission admits that it does not actually need this—indeed, the President of the Commission was not even aware of it on Thursday evening. So there is no pressing need for the money to be paid. There are fundamental questions over the fairness of these payments. For example, the proposal is for funds to be taken from the UK to correct historic contributions to the EU budget dating back to 2002 and to be redistributed based on the current share of gross national income to countries which only joined the EU in 2004 and 2007. It is not just Britain that would lose out. It is perverse that a country such as Greece, at the heart of the crisis in the eurozone, is being asked to find money to pay back to countries like Germany. The revised gross national income statistics on which these adjustments are based are also not yet finalised. The numbers are a ‘provisional estimate’ and the EU-wide process to quality-assure the figures will not conclude until well into 2015. So Britain will not be paying €2 billion to anyone on 1 December, and we reject this scale of payment. We will be challenging this in every way possible. We want to check on the way that the statistics were arrived at and the methodology that was used. We will crawl through this in exhaustive detail.

The events at last week’s Council will not—to use some British understatement—have enhanced the reputation of the European Union in the United Kingdom. As the Italian Prime Minister put it, ‘Even the EU’s founding fathers would turn to Euroscepticism when faced with some of the things that you’ve seen see here’. The European Union has to change. It has to regain trust. That starts by understanding and respecting the fact that these payments and adjustments are about the hard-earned taxes of its citizens. This is just one of the many challenges in our long campaign to reform the European Union. It is vital that we stick to the task. We have already cut the EU budget, got Britain out of the bail-out schemes, vetoed a treaty that was not in our national interest, made vital progress on cutting red tape and completing the single market, and we are leading the push for what will be the biggest bilateral trade deal in history, between the EU and the US.

None of this is easy. Progress is hard-won. It requires perseverance and hard work. We will carry on defending our national interest and fighting with all we have to reform the EU over the coming years. At the end of 2017, it will not be the Brussels bureaucracy or the politicians of any party who will decide whether we remain in the European Union or not. If I am Prime Minister, it will be the British people who make that decision through an in/out referendum. Others who aspire to this office and who refuse to give the British people their say should explain themselves to this House and the country. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for her comments in response to mine on Afghanistan and Ukraine.

In starting my response to the points that she has made, it is important for me to make it clear that the Prime Minister played a leading role in Brussels last week on climate change and Ebola, two very important matters on the agenda at the Council meeting. He achieved very good results that were good for Europe and for the United Kingdom; they felt right and they felt fair. This is in stark contrast to the way in which the previous Government approached some of the negotiations on matters such as climate change in the past. The same cannot be said, though, in terms of it being right or fair, when we consider what happened on the EU budget surcharge.

Taking the questions that the noble Baroness put to me, and starting with climate change, the target of at least a 40% reduction in carbon emissions has been described as ambitious, but it is a very sensible one. The way that we are approaching this, in not having the subtargets as binding agreements on member states, is very important. However, we are now in the best possible position to push our international partners, such as America and China, to bring forward ambitious climate pledges to reach a global deal next year.

On Ebola, the noble Baroness was right to say that the Prime Minister succeeded in ensuring that we attracted a financial commitment from member states, so Europe as a whole now will be contributing €1 billion to fighting Ebola. However, it is not just about the money; we also got a commitment that other European member states will help with their healthcare workers and ensure that they travel to affected countries. This is something that we need to continue to apply pressure on and ensure that we all do our fair share in ensuring that Ebola is properly tackled out there in west Africa.

As far as the budget is concerned and the points that she made about the surcharge, I do not think that it is right to focus on who knew what and when. What people really care about is how much is being demanded and the fact that this amount is unprecedented in the level that is being sought by the EU. It is true to say that there is a process every year that is standard in calculating these contributions, but it has never led to the kind of demand that we have seen on this occasion. Importantly, with regard to the level that the UK is being asked to contribute, no member state will know what amount it is being required to contribute in terms of its net contribution until it is clear what amount the EU is going to return, having identified what the countries’ gross contributions are. It is the net contribution that is key in this context, and it is that net contribution that the Prime Minister has made clear is absolutely unacceptable. He has made it clear that the way in which the European Commission has behaved in going about this process is not right, and that is something that we will ensure is properly addressed in the way in which the Prime Minister has described today.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we now have 20 minutes for questions on the Statement. I remind noble Lords that it is not a short debate. Noble Lords are asked to keep their questions short so as to enable others to follow.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that it is quite acceptable for the EU to want to recalculate the basis for calculating gross national income? However, why does this tax have to become retrospective? Can she explain to us why this has to be a retrospective exercise? Why is it not just being taken forward from here, if we get the agreement of Ministers, with the tax applying in the future, not the past?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend has highlighted one of the issues that we have to explore in greater detail in the process of talks that will start in the emergency discussions between Finance Ministers later next week.

[Lord Tomlinson (Lab)]

My Lords, I think we can all agree that the figures that have been produced need to be pored over in the greatest detail and justified, if they are justifiable. However, we have all read in recent days and weeks about the domestic changes that we have made to the calculation of GNI. I ask the Minister —as the Government seem to have been quite coy about this—whether, in the recalculation of GNI, we have included two service industries that have not been included previously, one of which is the illegal drugs trade and the other prostitution. If that is the case, what was their contribution to the increase in GNI and are we in fact the victims of our own success in boasting about the growth of GNI?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There is a lot of talk going on at the moment and many suggestions are being made. People are trying to complicate yet further something that is already incredibly complex. As the Prime Minister has been emphatic in saying, this is a standard process that happens on an annual basis. The UK expects to play its part in this process in the way it has done in the past. What has not happened before, but has happened this time, is this kind of demand being made at this sort of level. We need to understand the detail before we can go any further forward on this matter.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the Prime Minister’s remarks on the drawdown from Afghanistan in offering our deepest support for the 453 men and women who gave their lives in that cause. I also say to the Minister that we must not forget the many thousands who have been injured and maimed and who continue to live. We must remember our obligation to them as well.

On the EU budget contribution, does the Minister agree that since these reservations, voiced by Eurostat, go back to 2002—indeed, I understand that there were six reservations—they would have been known about by the Labour Government in all the years since 2002, and that the statistics that needed to be looked at have not come out of the blue for either side? Will she tell the House whether the emergency Finance Ministers’ meeting on 7 November will hold bilateral discussions with the other eight states that are similarly affected in order to build a consensus that this cannot go down the route which the Prime Minister is resisting and which they are trying to make him take? Will she also tell the House whether I am right to say that the amount sought is 0.01% of GNI?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to remind the House that in the context of Afghanistan we must also remember those Armed Forces personnel who were very badly injured through their service on our behalf in that country. I am grateful to her for reminding us of that.

On her point about bilateral conversations on 7 November, I do not have the detail about the way in which the meeting and the conversations are going to be constructed that day. However, it is important for us to be clear that other member states are affected by this and that they feel as strongly as we do. The Italian Prime Minister has it made clear, as he said when he was talking about the demands put on some member states by the surcharge, that this is not a figure but a lethal weapon. On my noble friend’s specific point, I may have to write to her if I am not able to give her an answer during the course of answering the Statement.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Will the Minister confirm that the GNP funding stream was invented here in London, was introduced 20 years ago and has worked extraordinarily well for this country in comparison to the old VAT-based stream? Will she also confirm that the reason the sums are large is that the refund to those who have overpaid is a multi-year refund, covering up to 20 years? Furthermore, will she confirm that for the United Kingdom to refuse to contribute to those who have overpaid would be illegal, unreasonable, unwise and unjust?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I said in an earlier response, the Prime Minister is clear that this demand, and the scale of it, have come out of the blue without any proper preliminary discussions. We now have to consider it very carefully and in great detail, and that is what we are going to do.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, in all the hullabaloo about yet another £1.7 billion of our taxpayers’ money going down the drain in Brussels, I notice that the Statement fails to mention a brilliant new spending spree to which the Council agreed—a mere €300 billion over 2015 to 2017. However, the Council conclusions mention it on page 10, where it is referred to as the,

“Strategic Agenda for the Union in Times of Change”.

Can the Minister tell us what the UK’s share will be of this new €300 billion and when we will pay it? Presumably we are looking at about another €30 billion or so over the next two years. Can she also tell us whether the Prime Minister was a party to this further lunacy or whether he was outvoted?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The package to which the noble Lord refers is the new investment package that the new Commission is proposing for the eurozone. Clearly, if it is the eurozone, that does not include the United Kingdom.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, is not the real and deeper lesson of this whole budgetary saga that the European Union administration is struggling to cope with a 20th century, highly centralised EU model in 21st century conditions that are completely different and in which these heavily centralised provisions no longer operate or are even necessary? Are the Minister and the Prime Minister not right to focus on the need for fundamental reform, such as many people throughout Europe, as well as many Governments, are calling for, and on winning the allies to build up a course for a better European Union that will fit 21st century conditions?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right. That is what the Prime Minister is seeking to do and he is attracting a great deal of support from other member states in reforming the European Union, because it is clear that that is what needs to happen.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister is putting it about that there is nothing he could have said or done about this until he knew the full details, which happened only on Thursday, and the Minister has been trying to defend him on that basis. However, is that not complete and obvious nonsense? It has been known for many months that these negotiations were continuing between Eurostat and the ONS. Anybody half awake would have known that, even if the recorded growth discrepancies in any one year were fairly small, resolving the whole matter by a single payment could amount to paying a very considerable cash sum. All that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister had to do was simply to follow carefully, via the ONS, how the discussions were proceeding to see whether that danger was materialising. They monumentally failed to do that: they took their eyes completely off the ball and have no one but themselves to blame for the surprise that they found on Thursday and Friday.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I know that the noble Lord follows European matters quite closely but, from what he has just said, he is clearly not familiar with this process, which happens every year. Each country puts forward the calculations of its own measures and then the Commission has to look at each country’s submissions alongside one another. It then proposes what will be refunded in the light of that. No nation state will know the net payment until the last minute. That is why all of the nation states that were affected by this dramatic increase were as surprised as Mr Cameron.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

Will the Minister not agree that it is sad that we should be welcoming, as I welcome, the three points on which the Council made great progress with British leadership—climate change, Ukraine and Ebola—but yet again we are caught up in one of these kerfuffles? Would the noble Baroness not accept that, frankly, to suggest that the Prime Minister only heard about this from the British Permanent Representative in the car on the morning of the meeting, when the matter had been notified by the Commission about 11 months ago and had been agreed with various emanations of the British Government in the summer, is not credible? There was a slip-up somewhere and the Prime Minister was not properly briefed; that is surely the truth of the matter.

Given the point of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, about the great benefit to this country of the switch from TVA to gross national income calculations from the time of the Edinburgh European Council in the 1990s onwards, would it not be helpful to the House if the noble Baroness were to let us have the Treasury calculation of just how much Britain has benefited over the years from having a GNI calculation? It is surely also important to recognise that the EU is not the only organisation that works in this way. The United Nations assessed contributions are based on GNI calculations; no doubt our GNI contribution will go up a bit as a result of the success of the Government’s policies. This is the normal way in which these organisations work. Should we not be a bit calmer about it?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have tried to make it clear, both in the Prime Minister’s Statement that I have repeated and in the responses I have given to points made today, that the Prime Minister has been very active in taking a leading role in Europe, both on the specific agenda items that I have talked about and in saying that we believe, as do others, that the European Union needs to reform. The Prime Minister is absolutely clear that there are real benefits to this country from being in Europe and he has spoken loudly about those benefits.

However, the situation in which we find ourselves with the budget on this occasion cannot be as the noble Lord describes. Why are other European leaders also surprised to find themselves in receipt of a big bill, as the UK was last week? I will see whether there are any specific further data that I can share in response to the noble Lord’s point, but I say to him that people in this country see the benefit of Britain’s place in Europe. They see that it has an important place in achieving some important international objectives, whether about Ebola or climate change. However, those successes and important advances do not come at any price. The way in which the European Union sometimes behaves and operates means that it lets itself down in the eyes of the people who have to fund its membership.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, describes as a “kerfuffle” is about £1.7 billion? We have not got any money. We are borrowing money in order to pay our bills. Surely the point is that the European Union is spending too much. It simply cannot issue continuing demands as it has and argue that that fits some formula or other. Will my noble friend note that the Opposition have singularly failed to indicate whether they would pay this money or not? The truth is that they are a pushover as far as this is concerned. Is my right honourable friend the Prime Minister not right to try to get the European Union to put its house in order and live within its means, as everyone else has to do?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right on every point. I would add that we should remember that it is not clear for what purpose the European Union needs this extra money, and that this is an organisation whose accounts have been qualified for many years.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, the big peanuts in this—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I pursue the point of my noble friend Lord Tomlinson because I was a bit puzzled by the answer. To what extent has the increase in GNI been caused by estimates for drugs and prostitution? Is this the first time that we have done that, and how large were those figures? Above all, were they accurate? Are we not, in fact, making it difficult for ourselves by adding in such figures in such a way that we are then being hit on the head by Brussels?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is focusing on the wrong thing. What is vital is that we have been presented with a massive bill which is wholly unacceptable and have been given a wholly unacceptable timeframe in which to pay it.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

I think that the noble Lord has already had a go. Is it not the case that the agreement on climate change, happily, does not amount to a row of beans? The official conclusions say that,

“all Member States will participate in this effort, balancing considerations of fairness and solidarity”.

In other words, there is no target for any individual member state, and I commend the Government for having made it clear that energy policy is the responsibility of member states, not of the European Union as a whole, so it does not mean anything.

Is not the fundamental question of the contributions a problem? While the late Lady Thatcher succeeded in securing a substantial improvement in the net contribution which we paid, not only was that net improvement insufficient to do us justice but the previous Labour Government also gave a large part of it away in exchange for a promise of reform of the common agricultural policy, which has not happened. This is why the issue is so sensitive. We already pay more than our fair share into the European Union budget.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right to point out that the previous Government gave away our rebate, to the tune of £2 billion. That has really affected the demands that Europe makes on our budget.

On my noble friend’s point about climate change, I certainly disagree with his description of what has been agreed in Europe on emissions reduction targets of 40%, but I say to him and the House that the way in which we have reached that agreement is different from the way in which previous Governments did so. We have made sure that we are able to retain flexibility in this country and are able to deliver on these targets in a very cost-effective way.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept that there are a number of people besides myself in this House who would like a clearer answer to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who has great experience and knowledge of these matters? I would be grateful if she could look at them in Hansard tomorrow and put answers of some type in the Library. They are important. I know that they are complex, and I am not necessarily saying that she ought to have the answers at her fingertips, but I would like to hear them.

Finally, as long as the Prime Minister keeps giving into and appeasing those in his party who want to take us out of Europe, sooner or later they will push him into a corner, where he will have to abandon that appeasement. Frankly, he needs to stand up and fight for whatever it is that he believes in.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, as I have already said, I will see what it is possible for me to provide by way of a written answer. As to the noble Lord’s broader point, I restate that the Prime Minister is absolutely committed to securing good reforms in Europe. He is approaching this in a very constructive way because he wants to see a Europe that works properly for the people of Europe. That is what he will succeed in achieving. When he has done that he will hold a referendum in 2017 in which people will have the final say.

Business of the House

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the debates on the Motions in the names of Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Monks set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

Iraq

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That this House takes note of developments in Iraq.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, in debating the Motion before your Lordships today, I will set out the Government’s position on developments in Iraq. The question before the House of Commons today, and the debate for us to contribute to, is how we keep the British people safe from the threat posed by ISIL and, in particular, what role our Armed Forces should play in the international coalition to dismantle and ultimately destroy what President Obama has rightly called “this network of death”.

There is no more serious issue than asking our Armed Forces to put themselves in harm’s way to protect our country. I will set out today why the Government believe that that is necessary. If we are to do this, there is a series of questions that must be answered. Is this in our national interest? In particular, is there a direct threat to the British people? Is there a comprehensive plan for dealing with this threat? Is the military element necessary? Is it necessary for us to take part in military action? Is it legal for us to take part? Will we be doing so with the support of local partners? Will doing this add up to a moral justification for putting the lives of British service men and women on the line? Above all, do we have a clear idea of what a successful outcome will look like, and are we convinced that our strategy can take us there? I will address each of these questions head on.

First, on our national interest, is there a threat to the British people? The simple answer to that question is yes. ISIL has already murdered one British hostage and is threatening the lives of two more. The first ISIL-inspired terrorist acts in Europe have already taken place, with the attack on the Jewish Museum of Belgium in Brussels. Security services have disrupted six other known plots in Europe, as well as foiling a terrorist attack in Australia aimed at civilians, including British and American tourists.

ISIL is a terrorist organisation unlike those with which we have dealt before. The brutality is staggering: beheadings, crucifixions, the gouging out of eyes, the use of rape as a weapon and the slaughter of children. All these things belong to the dark ages, but it is not just the brutality. ISIL is backed by billions of dollars and has captured an arsenal of the most modern weapons. In the space of a few months, ISIL has taken control of territory greater than the size of Britain, and is making millions selling oil to the Assad regime. It has already attacked Lebanon and boasts of its designs right up to the Turkish border. This is not a threat on the far side of the world. Left unchecked, we will face a terrorist caliphate on the shores of the Mediterranean and bordering a NATO member, with a declared and proven determination to attack our country and our people. This is not the stuff of fantasy. It is happening in front of us and we need to face up to it.

Is there a clear, comprehensive plan? The answer, again, is yes. It starts at home, with tough, uncompromising action to prevent attacks and hunt down those who are planning them. We are introducing new powers. These include strengthening our ability to seize passports and to stop suspects travelling, stripping British nationality from dual-nationals and ensuring that airlines comply with our no-fly list. In all this, we are being clear about the cause of the terrorist threat we face. As the Prime Minister has said, that means defeating the poisonous ideology of extremism by tackling all forms of extremism, not just non-violent extremism, so we are banning preachers of hate, proscribing organisations that incite terrorism and stopping people inciting hatred in our schools, universities and prisons.

Of course, some will say, “Any action you take will further radicalise young people”. That is a counsel of despair. The threat of radicalisation is already here. Young people are leaving our country to fight with these extremists. We must take action at home, but we must also have a comprehensive strategy to defeat these extremists abroad. This involves using all the resources at our disposal: humanitarian efforts, which Britain is already leading to help those displaced by ISIL’s onslaught; diplomatic efforts, to engage the widest possible coalition of countries in the region as part of this international effort; and, at the United Nations, leading the process of condemning ISIL, disputing the flows of finance to ISIL and forging a global consensus about preventing the movement of foreign fighters.

This strategy also involves political efforts to support the creation of a new and genuinely inclusive Government in Iraq and to bring about a transition of power in Syria that can lead to a new representative and accountable Government in Damascus who can take the fight to ISIL. Yes, there is one part in all this activity in which we believe our military has an indispensable role to play, so I will turn to the question of why.

Why is the military element necessary? A military conflict is already taking place. ISIL has taken territory and is butchering people in Iraq. Iraqi, including Kurdish, security forces are already fighting ISIL. We have to decide whether we will support them. This Government believe that we should. If we are to beat these terrorists, it is vital that the international community does more to build the capability of the legitimate authorities fighting extremists. Along with our European partners, Britain has already been supplying equipment directly to Kurdish forces. We are strengthening the resilience of military forces in neighbouring Lebanon and Jordan, and our Tornado and surveillance aircraft have already been helping with intelligence-gathering and logistics to support American strikes on ISIL in Iraq. However, the Iraqi Government want more direct assistance. Earlier this week, the Iraqi Foreign Minister wrote to the United Nations Security Council requesting military assistance to support his own Government’s actions against ISIL. When the Prime Minister met Prime Minister Abadi in New York on Wednesday, he reiterated that request to him. In Iraq, the real work of destroying ISIL will be for Iraqi security forces, but they need our military help and it is in our interests, and theirs, to give it.

The next question is: does Britain, specifically, need to take part in this international action? Again, the answer is yes. The international coalition needs our help, in particular with the vital work being done in terms of air strikes. Britain has unique assets that no other coalition ally can contribute: the Brimstone precision missile system, which minimises the risk of civilian causalities and which the US does not have; our unique surveillance and intelligence capabilities; and our highly professional forces, which are well used to working with their US counterparts. Those are some of the reasons why President Obama has made it clear to the Prime Minister that America wants Britain to join the air action in Iraq, which has been under way for several weeks now. But it is also our duty to take part. This international operation is about protecting our people, too, and protecting the streets of Britain should not be a task that we are prepared to subcontract entirely to the air forces of our allies.

I turn now to the question of legality. The Attorney-General has given his advice on the action that we propose to take. There is a clear legal base for UK military action to help Iraq defend itself from ISIL. A summary of this legal position is being placed in the Library.

The Iraqi Government have requested our help and given their clear consent for UK military action. There is no question about this. We have the letter from the Iraqi Government to the UN Security Council, to which I have already referred. We have the public statements from Prime Minister Abadi and President Masoum. We have the personal request made to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the full UN Security Council by Prime Minister Abadi in New York on Wednesday. There is no question but that we have the legal basis for action, founded on the request of the Iraqi Government.

The next question is whether we will be acting with the support of local partners. Again, this is clearly the case. We have a substantial international coalition in place, including Arab nations, committed to confronting and defeating ISIL. Sixty countries are acting in some way to help tackle ISIL. Of those, 10 are Arab states. Five have already taken part in air strikes with the Americans in Syria. Even regional powers such as Iran are publicly condemning the extremists. Yesterday in New York, President Rouhani said that parts of the Middle East are,

“burning in the fire of extremism and radicalism”,

and expressed deep regret that terrorism has become globalised. Of course, our differences with Iran remain. Iran’s support for terrorist organisations, its nuclear programme and the treatment of its people all have to change, and we will not back down on those things. But if Iran’s political leaders are prepared to help secure a more stable and inclusive Iraq and Syria, we should welcome their engagement.

We have a comprehensive strategy for action, with the political, diplomatic, humanitarian and military components that it needs to succeed over time. We have a clear request from the Iraqi Government for assistance; a clear basis in international law for action; a substantial international coalition, including many Arab partners; and the need to act in our own national interest to protect our people. It is morally right that we now move to a new phase of action by asking our Armed Forces to take part in international air strikes against ISIL in Iraq, and we must do so now.

We are very clear about what success would look like. We would see a stable Iraq and, over time, a stable Syria as well; and ISIL will have been degraded and then destroyed as a serious terrorist force. However, we should not expect this to happen quickly. The hallmarks of this campaign will be patience and persistence, not shock and awe. We are not deploying British combat troops but providing air power in support of local forces on the ground. No British or western troops will occupy Iraq, and many other elements will be needed for long-term success: the need for an inclusive Iraqi Government and for the Sunni tribes to rise up against ISIL; and the need for a Syrian Government who represent all their people. Even after ISIL has been dealt with, we should be in no doubt that future Prime Ministers and future British Governments will stand at this Dispatch Box dealing with this issue of Islamist extremism in different forms and in different parts of the world.

ISIL has sprung up quickly, and around the world we see the mayhem caused by other groups: Boko Haram in Nigeria, al-Shabaab in Somalia and al-Qaeda in Yemen. We are dealing here with a generational struggle caused by the perversion of one of the world’s great religions—Islam—but I have no doubt that it is one that this country is more than equal to.

I will say a few words about Syria. Syria is where ISIL has its headquarters and large numbers of its fighters, and where it holds British hostages. People will rightly ask why we are taking military action against ISIL in Iraq but not in Syria. Let me be clear about the Government’s position on this: there is a strong case for the UK joining in international action against ISIL in Syria. ISIL must be defeated in both Iraq and Syria. We support the air strikes being conducted by the United States and five Arab nations against ISIL in Syria but today we are discussing only the action that the UK proposes to take in Iraq. The Government will return to the House of Commons for a separate decision if we propose to take military action against ISIL in Syria.

In this Government’s view, the legal position is clear: there is a legal case for action in Syria, as there is in Iraq. However, the whole House is aware that there are a number of additional complications with regard to Syria. There is no legitimate Government there, a civil war is under way and there are regional and international angles that do not apply in Iraq. So the Government will return to the House of Commons on this issue if they judge it necessary to do so.

To conclude, it is inevitable that the shadow of the United Kingdom’s previous military involvement in Iraq hangs heavy over both Houses of Parliament today. However, the situation we face today is very different. We are acting in response to a direct appeal from the sovereign Government of Iraq to help them deal with a mortal terrorist threat to Iraq and to Britain. We are not acting alone, but as part of an international coalition of 60 countries, many of them from the region and all of them committed to rolling back ISIL, however long and difficult the task may be. This is not 2003 and we must not use past mistakes as an excuse for indifference or inaction.

We will play our part in destroying these evil extremists. We will support our Muslim friends around the world as they reclaim their religion. Once again, our inspirational Armed Forces will put themselves in harm’s way to keep our people safe. I pay tribute to their extraordinary bravery and service. I commend the Motion to the House. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I beg the noble Lord’s pardon, but it might be in everyone’s interest if we were sure that the loudspeaker had stopped so that we can hear the noble Lord’s contribution. I wonder whether it has stopped; I cannot hear it at moment. We are safe to continue.

[Lord Hylton]

Well, my Lords, I conclude by saying that positive ideas will be crucial during the containment phase to rebuild Iraq, Syria and Palestine anew. Corruption and old-style dictatorships have no answers to those problems.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:

Standing Order 10 (Hereditary peers by-elections)

In paragraph (1), after “death” insert “, or resignation or expulsion from the House under the House of Lords Reform Act 2014,”.

In paragraphs (2) and (3): after "death" insert "or resignation or expulsion".

Motion agreed.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That Standing Order 10(6) (Hereditary peers: by-elections), which requires that by-elections take place within three months of a vacancy occurring, be dispensed with to allow the by-election following the death of Lord Methuen to take place on 21 October 2014.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House for some clarification? As we apparently have the ability to delay the by-election of an hereditary Peer for some weeks, does that mean we could delay it for some years, or indeed indefinitely? If so, ought we not to do so?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

I think the noble Lord is clear about what we are doing. We are making a change to provide for a logistical matter so that the by-election can be held when the House returns in the autumn.

Motion agreed.

Leader of the House of Lords

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 28th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with almost all that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has just said. It would be most unfortunate if we were not to deliver a unanimous view on this matter. The only difficulty I have with the precise terms of the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has pointed out, the options for the Prime Minister might take a little time. Therefore, if she was prepared to say “as soon as possible” as the conclusion, I think all of us could wholeheartedly agree with her.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for providing the opportunity for us to have this debate this evening. She is, it goes without saying, a distinguished Member of this House, and I have listened carefully to her and, indeed, to all noble Lords who have spoken tonight. I am very grateful to all noble Lords for the supportive comments that have been made about me personally. I am also grateful to the Constitution Committee under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton which, contrary to how some of us have sought to portray it, has set out, in my view, a helpful and factual report that has been constructive in explaining how the relevant legislation has come into play on this occasion. The legislation that we are talking about is, of course, the Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975.

I am the Leader of this House. While noble Lords may be concerned about my ministerial rank, nothing changes that simple fact. Nothing has changed in practice about how I represent this House within government, and I will do the job of Leader in exactly the same way as all my predecessors. Even though nothing has changed in practice, the Prime Minister has made clear that he shares the House’s view, expressed passionately again tonight, that the Leader of the House of Lords should,

“as a general rule, always be a full member of the Cabinet”.

He has confirmed that he sees the current situation as a purely temporary one that he will want to rectify at the earliest opportunity, and that he will certainly do so immediately after the general election if he is returned as Prime Minister and no opportunity has arisen to do so before then. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said that if the Opposition are elected, they too would change the situation at that time.

The principle at the heart of the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, that this House should be properly represented within government at the highest level—that is to say, in Cabinet—is therefore not in dispute. We are all agreed on that point. The question we are debating tonight is how and when this temporary situation might be corrected and what problems, if any, this temporary situation creates.

A significant problem that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and some others have identified is a risk, which was also identified by the Constitution Committee, that my status might detract from my authority in an intangible way and affect my ability to represent this House in the Cabinet. I will respond to that point as directly as I can. As I said during our short debate soon after my appointment, judge me on what I do and how I do it. My effectiveness in the job will rest on the quality of my arguments and my ability to put forward my case. If my arguments are no good and I cannot present a good case, it will not matter whether I am a full member of the Cabinet.

Noble Lords already have evidence that I can deliver without status and regardless of rank. I led one of the most contentious pieces of legislation in this Parliament through your Lordships’ House when I was no more senior than any Whip. In so doing, I hope I demonstrated that successful negotiation with other Ministers and senior civil servants is not all about rank.

David Cameron is the second Prime Minister and the third party leader with whom I have worked closely. I have never in my professional career shied away from giving unpalatable advice or expressing an opinion that those on the receiving end did not want to hear. I will continue to do that where I believe it is necessary for me to do so. If noble Lords do not believe me, they may speak to any of my former male bosses. Some of them are also members of your Lordships’ House.

I am an independent woman and a single lady. Noble Lords might want to think of me as the Beyoncé of your Lordships’ House. I none the less recognise that this is ultimately not about me. I understand the serious concern expressed about diminishing the standing of this House of Parliament. This House has already shown that it need not be affected by this temporary situation. In the days after my appointment, this House debated the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, on assisted dying. The following day the Telegraph commented:

“Yesterday’s discussion in the House of Lords was an example of Parliament at its finest”.

The Times headlined a similar editorial with two words: “Model Parliament”. All that said, the situation is temporary and the PM is committed to rectifying it by May next year at the latest if he is re-elected. The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, talked, however, of the Prime Minister having careless disregard in the matter of my appointment. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, also raised the constitutional concern.

It is important for me to remind noble Lords that it was the previous Government who removed the certainty of a full Cabinet member being in the House of Lords when they removed the Lord Chancellor from this House. The comparison by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, of this current, temporary situation to a permanent change is not one that I can accept. That change, the change of removing the Lord Chancellor from this House, has a profound impact. Indeed, the Constitution Committee’s report says:

“At the time of the 1975 Act it would have been assumed that at least the Lord Chancellor would always be a peer in the Cabinet”.

That change has had a profound impact on the membership of the Cabinet in terms of its representation from your Lordships’ House.

I turn now to some of the potential solutions that noble Lords have put forward tonight. I refer specifically to that which my noble friend Lord MacGregor made.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

In terms of that, may I ask the noble Baroness a question? If she is in this strange sort of intermediate stage of not being a Cabinet Minister yet being in the Cabinet, if there is a collection of voices, does she have a vote?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think that the way in which Cabinet conducts itself in recent years is for there to be a debate, and for the Prime Minister to conclude what has been agreed on the basis of that discussion. I understand it has been a long time since there has been a formal vote in the Cabinet, but I am not a full member of the Cabinet, and I would not have a formal vote. As I stress again to the noble Lord, it is many years—some might suggest decades—since a formal vote has been conducted in the way that he suggests.

I will return to the potential solutions that other noble Lords have put forward tonight. I refer explicitly to that which my noble friend Lord MacGregor raised, which is a proposal to amend the Ministerial and other Salaries Act to increase the number of paid Cabinet Ministers. The Constitution Committee also noted that the Act could be amended to provide that one of the 21 salaries must be paid to a Member of the House of Lords to prevent this happening again. I will, of course, convey the strength of the House’s view on this matter to the Prime Minister, and I will discuss this with him and with other colleagues. None the less, we should acknowledge that if we decided to amend legislation to create another full Cabinet post or to prevent a repeat of this situation, that would take time to implement. I therefore believe that the key point to consider is whether there is a way to address this situation better than the one the Prime Minister has already committed to carrying out. I know that the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Armstrong, were both explicit about another member of government giving up their place or their pay. That proposal is not necessary when the Prime Minister has been very clear that this situation is temporary.

China: United Kingdom Trade

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davidson of Glen Clova (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, there is time for both noble Lords to be able to ask a question.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

My Lords, according to a report on 17 June in the Times, the Business Minister, Michael Fallon, said that human rights must not stop trade with China. Does the Minister agree that that statement demeans the very concept of human rights?

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, this is the first time the House has met since the tragic loss of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 last Thursday and I think that it is right to make a Statement about this and the ongoing crisis in Israel and Gaza. Flight MH17 was travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down by a surface-to-air missile over eastern Ukraine. All 298 people on board were killed. It includes 10 of our own citizens, as many as 80 children and victims from nine other countries, including 193 Dutch citizens. It also includes members of an Australian family who had lost relatives on Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 earlier this year.

From Adelaide to Amsterdam, from Kuala Lumpur to Newcastle, we are seeing heart-wrenching scenes of grief as communities come together to remember their loved ones. I am sure the whole House will join me in sending our deepest condolences to the friends and families of everyone affected. Alongside sympathy for the victims, there is also anger. There is anger that this could happen at all; there is anger that the murder of innocent men, women and children has been compounded by sickening reports of looting of victims’ possessions and interference with the evidence; and there is rightly anger that a conflict that could have been curtailed by Moscow has instead been fomented by Moscow. This has to change now.

In the last few days I have spoken to Presidents Obama and Hollande, Chancellor Merkel, and the Prime Ministers of the Netherlands, Malaysia, Poland and Australia. We are all agreed on what must happen. First, those with influence on the separatists must ensure that they allow the bodies of the victims to be repatriated and provide uninhibited access to the crash site to enable a proper international investigation of what happened to flight MH17. Secondly, President Putin must use his influence to end the conflict in Ukraine by halting supplies and training for the separatists. Thirdly, we must establish proper long-term relationships between Ukraine and Russia, between Ukraine and the European Union, and above all between Russia and the European Union, NATO and the wider west. Let me take each of these points in turn.

The first priority remains ensuring proper access to the crash site to repatriate the bodies and investigate what happened. The UK has sent air accident investigators and a police-led victim identification team to help with the international effort. The Ukrainian Ministry of Emergency Situations has now searched an area of 32 square kilometres around the crash site and recovered 272 bodies. The work has been made more difficult by the presence of armed separatists. The bodies sitting on a refrigerated train have still not been allowed to leave. The pictures of victims’ personal belongings being gone through are a further sickening violation of this already tragic scene.

It is welcome that international experts have been able to visit the site, but this should not have taken four days, and even now they are still not getting the unimpeded access that they need. I spoke to President Putin last night and made it clear that there can be no more bluster or obfuscation. We expect him to help right now by using his influence with the pro-Russian separatists to secure full access for international investigators and to support the repatriation of the bodies, by handing them over to the appropriate authorities and ensuring they are treated with dignity.

Families want information and answers and we must make sure we get them. The UK and Australia have tabled a joint resolution at the United Nations Security Council demanding proper access in support of a credible international investigation, and we expect this resolution to be voted on this evening. Secondly, I also made it clear to President Putin that we expect Russia to end its support for the separatists and their attempts to further destabilise Ukraine. No one is saying that President Putin intended flight MH17 to be shot down—it is unlikely that even the separatists wanted this to happen—but we should be absolutely clear about what caused this terrible tragedy to happen.

The context for this tragedy is Russia’s attempt to destabilise a sovereign state, violate its territorial integrity and arm and train thuggish militias. Over the past month there has been an increasing amount of heavy weaponry crossing the border from Russia to separatist fighters in Ukraine. There is evidence that Russia has been providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in south-west Russia, including training on air defence systems. Seconds before flight MH17 dropped out of contact, a surface-to-air missile launch was detected from a separatist-controlled area in south-eastern Ukraine. According to expert analysis, an SA-11 is the most likely missile type.

In an intercepted conversation, a known separatist leader was overheard claiming that a separatist faction had downed an aircraft. Another separatist leader claimed on Twitter to have shot down an aircraft at about the same time, while a video on social media over the weekend showed an SA-11 missile system, missing at least one missile, travelling back towards Russia. Those who argue that the Ukrainians could be responsible need to explain all of this. In addition, there is no evidence that Ukrainian forces have fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict and no Ukrainian air defence systems appear to have been within range of the crash. By contrast, pro-Russian separatist fighters have downed more than a dozen Ukrainian aircraft over the past few months, including two transport aircraft, so the picture is becoming clearer and the weight of evidence is pointing in one direction: MH17 was shot down by an SA-11 missile fired by separatists.

Thirdly, this is a defining moment for Russia. The world is watching and President Putin faces a clear choice in how he decides to respond to this appalling tragedy. I hope that he will use this moment to find a path out of this festering and dangerous crisis by ending Russia’s support for the separatists. If he does not change his approach to Ukraine in this way, then Europe and the west must fundamentally change our approach to Russia. Those of us in Europe should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries. We should not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent. For too long, there has been reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine. It is time to make our power, influence and resources felt.

Over the weekend, I agreed with Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande that we should push our partners in the European Union to consider a new range of hard-hitting economic sanctions against Russia. We should take the first step at the Foreign Ministers’ meeting in Brussels tomorrow. If Russia does not change course, then we must be clear that Europe must keep increasing pressure. Russia cannot expect to continue enjoying access to European markets, capital, knowledge and technical expertise while she fuels conflict in one of Europe’s neighbours. We must do what is necessary to stand up to Russia and put an end to the conflict in Ukraine before any more innocent lives are lost.

Let me now turn to the ongoing crisis in Israel and Gaza. The crisis was triggered by Hamas raining hundreds of rockets on Israeli cities, indiscriminately targeting civilians in contravention of all humanitarian law and norms. In the last fortnight, Hamas has fired 1,850 rockets at Israeli cities. This unprecedented barrage continues to this moment, with Hamas rejecting all proposals for a ceasefire, including those put forward by the Egyptian Government.

I have been clear throughout this crisis that Israel has the right to defend itself. Those criticising Israel’s response must ask themselves how they would expect their own Government to react if hundreds of rockets were raining down on British cities today. But I share the grave concern of many in the international community about the heavy toll of civilian casualties. The figures are very disturbing. Over 500 people have now reportedly been killed in Gaza and over 3,000 people injured. The UN estimates that over 83,000 people have been displaced so far. Israel has also faced loss of life, with 18 soldiers and two civilians killed, including 13 soldiers yesterday alone.

I spoke to Prime Minister Netanyahu again about this crisis last night. I repeated our recognition of Israel’s right to take proportionate action to defend itself and our condemnation of Hamas’s refusal to end its rocket attacks, despite all international efforts to broker a ceasefire. But I urged him do everything to avoid civilian casualties, exercise restraint and help find ways to bring this situation to an end. Prime Minister Netanyahu made clear that Israel had been ready to accept each of these ceasefire proposals and had unilaterally implemented a temporary ceasefire in the hope that Hamas would follow suit. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has spoken to President Abbas to welcome his support for a ceasefire and underline our wish to see the Palestinian Authority back in Gaza.

The UN Security Council met in a special session last night and issued a call for an immediate ceasefire. The council expressed serious concern about rising casualties and called for respect for international humanitarian law and the protection of civilians. We strongly endorse that call. It is vital that Hamas recognises the need to enter serious negotiations to end this crisis. In particular, we urge Hamas to engage with the ceasefire proposals put forward by the Egyptian Government. It is only by securing a ceasefire that the space can be created to address the underlying issues and return to the long and painstaking task of building the lasting and secure peace that we all want to see. I commend this Statement to the House”.

That concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I welcome the response of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, to this Statement and for her support. I think it is fair to say that we both speak for the whole House in sending our heartfelt condolences to the families of the victims of the appalling incident in Ukraine. At moments such as this, both Houses of Parliament, the Government and the Opposition speak with one voice to ensure that the deceased are treated with respect and dignity. Above all else it is a matter of human decency that recovery officials in eastern Ukraine are allowed to get on with the task of repatriating the bodies of the deceased and of investigating the crash site fully and unhindered.

I turn now to the noble Baroness’s questions. She asked whether we would identify a senior Minister to co-ordinate support for families. I can confirm that Mark Simmonds, who is the relevant Minister of State in the Foreign Office, is that person. The Prime Minister also said this afternoon, in another place, that he would also want to discuss directly with the families how best we can take care of their needs and concerns.

The noble Baroness asked whether there should be an emergency meeting of the European Council Heads of Government. The Prime Minister has not ruled out such a meeting but tomorrow evening the meeting of European Foreign Ministers takes place, and it is in that forum that we should set out the tough measures necessary to show that Europe is very firm and resolute in its requirements from Russia.

The noble Baroness also asked about specific travel advice for those planning to go abroad. Eurocontrol is the organisation that sets parameters for where aeroplanes can or cannot fly, while we give advice about individual countries where citizens should or should not travel to. This information is set out on the Foreign Office website, where it is regularly updated.

The noble Baroness asked about sanctions. Clearly, I agree with her that this is a moment of reckoning for Europe and I hope the European Council will not be found wanting. Regarding specific steps that should be taken, we already have what we describe as tier 2 sanctions, some of which are already in place, and the Prime Minister has said that more can be done, which might include naming individuals and increasing the number of asset freezes and travel bans. When the Prime Minister was at the European Council last week, he suggested that this could be broadened to include cronies and oligarchs around President Putin and other leaders—even those without a direct link to Ukraine and Crimea. He made some progress on that and hopes to make more.

The Prime Minister also said this afternoon that it is time to go into tier 3 sanctions, which might extend, for example, to stopping future military sales by any European country going ahead. We have already stopped sales from Britain. There are a number of other suggestions about airlines and banks, particularly ones connected with Crimea, that have not yet been acted on. There are, therefore, a whole set of things which should be set in train and a very clear message sent.

I turn now to the points the noble Baroness made about Gaza. It is most important to stress from the start that the loss of any innocent civilian life is a tragedy and I wholeheartedly endorse her comments about that. The first priority must be a ceasefire and an end to the bloodshed on both sides. I agree that we should not look at this—I think she described it thus—as a ledger of casualties. It is, rather, a deeply human tragedy and what is happening in Gaza is heartbreaking. In the longer term—beyond an immediate ceasefire—we want an end to this cycle of violence once and for all. That would make the Israelis secure and ease the suffering of ordinary people inside Gaza.

The noble Baroness referred to the comments of Ban Ki-moon. We have to be absolutely clear that the quickest way for the situation to be brought to an end is for Hamas to stop the rocket attacks on Israel. I agree that we need to make progress towards a two-state solution but that will not happen while there is no ceasefire and Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel. That is the root cause of this and it needs to change—and change quickly—to bring peace to the Middle East.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, I extend my sympathy to the Governments, people and families affected by the MH17 tragedy. The Prime Minister is absolutely right to insist that the UN Security Council demands proper access in support of a credible international investigation. He is also right to insist on hardening the economic sanctions. The question I put to my noble friend the Minister is: what would be the impact on the British economy of this measure and could we count on the wholehearted support of the EU, in particular Germany?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The most important thing is for the sanctions put in place to have a direct effect on Russia. The existing sanctions have already had some impact—Russia’s economy has shrunk as a result. As far as the future is concerned, and how any additional sanctions might affect the UK economy, we should recognise that our success is based on our security. That also applies to Europe more widely, so in looking at possible further steps we need to make sure that, as member countries of the European Union, we apply measures fairly in terms of their impact. We must, however, not lose sight of the fact that security is a very important part of our success.

[Lord Warner (Lab)]

Can the Minister please give us some figures on the Israeli casualties arising from the 1,850 rockets? Will she also acknowledge that there is a slight disjunct in this Statement between the robustness in the Government’s response on Russia and their response on Israel? Will she recall that Israel is becoming a serial offender in this area? Israel, under Operation Cast Lead, killed hugely larger numbers of Palestinians in its response to rockets fired over. It is a repeat of what happened there. Those of us who went to Gaza and saw what the Israeli forces had done in Gaza to civilians—not to Hamas militants—as a result of Operation Cast Lead are now seeing this repeated. Will the Government not consider taking the kind of robust resolution to the United Nations that they are doing with Russia, in relation to the disproportionate action taken by Israel?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is important for me to say that this conflict is taking a terrible toll. Along with the rest of the Government, I am deeply concerned at the high number of civilian casualties and the humanitarian impact of the conflict. The people of Israel have the right to live without constant fear for their security and the people of Gaza have the right to live safely and in peace. The most important thing is that we bring this current conflict to an end and that steps are taken to make this ceasefire durable so that it is not repeated. That is the only way in which we can ensure the safety and security of all people in the region and make steps towards a longer two-state solution.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that there is something distasteful about this concentration on numbers and proportionality? In recent months, some 2,000 Palestinians have been killed in Syria without, I gather, much notice being taken in this House. The reason for the civilian casualties in Gaza appears to be that Hamas hides its weapons and rockets in schools, mosques and hospitals and is prepared to use civilians as a shield. One simply cannot therefore make a parallel between the two. If a country has to defend itself, I cannot imagine what the answer is to proportionality when the entire population of Israel is only 6 million, including 1 million Arabs. I hope that the noble Baroness will encourage the Government to complain to UNWRA about the rockets hidden in schools and to the Red Cross about the use of civilians as human shields.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I said when I repeated the Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place, we have been absolutely clear in our remarks to Israel about the needs for its response to be proportionate and to minimise any civilian casualties. The most important thing that we are trying to encourage is an end to this bloodshed on all sides, and we continue to press for an urgent agreement to that end.

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry]

My Lords, perhaps I may return us to the tragic event of the downing of flight MH17 to join others in expressing deep and profound condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of those who died. In particular, I express the deep sympathies of those of us who spend quite a lot of our time caring for those who are bereaved and, in so doing, I pay tribute to the Protestant, Anglican, Old Catholic and Roman Catholic ministers who have been trying to care for the stricken families at Schiphol Airport. They have a very demanding task.

As we have heard, the bereaved are suffering from a deep and dreadful trauma. The deaths were sudden and led, of course, to shock on the part of those bereaved. They were inflicted by violence, leading to anger. They took place in foreign lands where, as we know, the bodies are out of reach—not only that but lying around in the heat, in body bags, in full view of the world’s media. Now, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, powerfully explained, they are being disregarded and disrespected. It is a psychological, pastoral and spiritual nightmare of unspeakable proportions. My question is simply: will the Government continue to use appropriate means to ensure that the bodies are treated with dignity in this period and, of course, returned with urgency?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Our first priority over the last few days has been applying pressure to Russia to use what influence it has to ensure that what occurs is exactly what the right reverend Prelate asked for. While this has not yet been confirmed, I hear that there are now reports that the refrigerated train has left Torez and is now en route to Kharkiv. That is exactly the kind of progress we need to see continue so that people are able to grieve, while knowing that their families and friends are being treated properly and being looked after by the people who they would want to be doing so.

[Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. At the beginning of this crisis in Gaza, my right honourable friend William Hague called for an immediate ceasefire and a fundamental transformation of the situation in Gaza. Can my noble friend the Leader of the House say whether the Government are talking to Qatar to see whether it might be best placed to broker a ceasefire, following yesterday’s talks in Doha? Regarding the long-term fundamental transformation of Gaza, does she agree that economically active people seek peace and that all Palestinians should be free to trade, travel, hope and dream, and lead ordinary lives?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Foreign Secretary is in contact with a range of countries in the region to try to progress the situation there. My noble friend is absolutely right that we need to ensure a durable ceasefire, so that all people who are desperately affected by this current situation find some peace and security as soon as possible.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, my first question is about the part of the Statement dealing with MH17. During the course of the weekend there were widespread reports that the black box had been removed from the wreckage of the aircraft, so that investigators—independent people—could not look at it. Do the Government have any independent evidence to indicate whether the black box has indeed been taken away already?

On Gaza, perhaps I may return to the question raised by my noble friend Lord Warner and referred to from the Cross Benches about proportionality. Proportionality is important in international law, so can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House tell us whether the Government believe that it is proportionate for Israel to have taken 500 lives and made 83,000 people homeless as a result of its recent action? Do the Government believe, since the Prime Minister raised this question with Mr Netanyahu, that his response has indeed been proportionate?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, I cannot stress enough how much the international community is united in its call for a swift, transparent and credible investigation into the incident in Ukraine. We understand that there were two black boxes on board the aircraft and are aware of reports that one of those black boxes has now been found. We urge that this should be passed on to the International Civil Aviation Organization at the earliest opportunity. It is so important that all the proper and relevant authorities are able to do their work in response to this situation.

As to the noble Baroness’s question about Gaza and Israel, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, he was clear during his call last night to Prime Minister Netanyahu that he should do everything to avoid civilian casualties, exercise restraint and help find ways to bring that situation to an end.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, while I join my noble friend in offering the deepest condolences to all those who have suffered from this appalling outrage with the Malaysian airliner, there was one sentence in her Statement that I found difficult to accept. It was when the Statement said:

“It is unlikely that even the separatists wanted this to happen”.

This is a disaster for everybody concerned and it has obviously made the position of President Putin even more difficult than it was before. The separatists are now pilloried right across the world and, if they are responsible for this, have done their own cause enormous damage as well.

This has happened against a background of bombing of this area by the Ukrainian air force and of the separatists shooting down some aircraft in self-defence. It is important to recognise the situation in which this has happened. I say in passing that I find it extraordinary that the European organisation responsible for flight safety gave airlines permission to fly over this area. Having said that, two weeks ago, while on their way to the World Cup, Angela Merkel and President Putin called for Ukraine and the separatists to stop fighting and start talking. That is the background against which this has happened. There must be a cessation of violence and an opportunity must be given for an independent inspection of what has happened. Efforts must be made at the earliest possible opportunity to get constructive talks on the tragedy that has followed this episode of violence.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the Statement says, even the separatists did not want to target a commercial airliner: that is the point we are trying to get at. It is not a question of evidence being gathered to show that there was that intent; it is about the aircraft that they were focusing on. As regards my noble friend’s point about the fly zone above this area, it is important to note that the controls that were in place extended to a specific height, and that this commercial airliner was above the height determined to be safe. However, those controls have now been extended and there is a complete lockdown of the whole area at any height. My noble friend rightly said that the fighting needs to stop and talking needs to start. We are very clear that Russia needs to take steps to de-escalate the action in Ukraine. We need to ensure movement to bring security to Ukraine very soon.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

The shooting down of MH17 was clearly an unexpected atrocity. However, we must not be surprised at that because atrocities happen every day in civil wars, as we see in Syria and Iraq and saw in Bosnia. I am afraid that these irregulars will behave in a very inhumane way: that is what happens in civil wars. There is no doubt whatever that Putin has been caught on the back foot. He has been caught out in this situation for the second time. The first time was the revolution in Kiev, where he was very badly caught out. We must think very carefully about how the Russians perceive this. They conflate NATO, the EU and America and see them all as a threat. We never gave any credit whatever to the fact that Crimea has a special status. There is no love lost between me and Putin, but does the Minister really believe that forcing him even further into a corner will help the settlement within Ukraine? Would it not be far better to aim to stop all fighting and have a conference whereby we can leave Russia primarily to broker some sort of agreement because, in the end, the Minister must agree, it is only with the Russians that we can get peace in this region?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The UK has been at the forefront of calling for a ceasefire, for the fighting to stop and for Russia to de-escalate the situation. However, because of the aggression that Russia has shown, we believe that it is vital that we also show strength in response to that, and that we are clear about the sanctions that are necessary to try to resolve this situation.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, will my noble friend please explain what is meant on page 6 of the Statement, where the Prime Minister says:

“Those criticising Israel’s response must ask themselves how would they expect their own Government to react if hundreds of rockets were raining down on British cities today”?

Will she tell me—perhaps in writing if she cannot tell me now—what is meant by drawing an analogy between what might happen in British cities with what is happening between Israel and Palestine, particularly what is happening in Gaza this week? I respectfully say to her that, even at the height of the Northern Ireland Troubles, this was not an analogous situation, and any idea that it is disregards the history of the Middle East over 100 years. Finally, will she also say—in writing if she cannot do so now—whether she recognises the importance of proportionality and distinction in international humanitarian law?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Prime Minister’s Statement is very clear in the terms that he is using. We are absolutely clear that the loss of any civilian life is an absolute tragedy. We are also clear that the first step to bringing about peace is for Hamas to stop firing rockets at Israel. As I said when I repeated the Statement, Israel has taken steps to introduce a temporary ceasefire that was not reciprocated by Hamas. Clearly, the Government are looking to ensure that all sides in this argument work together to bring forward peace. That is what we want to see happen as soon as possible.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

Given that the EU Foreign Ministers will meet tomorrow, has the Minister any good reason to expect that they will reach a unanimous decision that will be effective?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As regards what has happened over the past few days, there was a meeting last week of the European Council where it was agreed that further steps were necessary in terms of strengthening sanctions. That decision was taken before the tragic incident on Thursday. We have been talking to our European partners throughout the weekend and have had extensive discussions. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will work very hard to ensure that there is clarity tomorrow and that further steps are taken in accordance with what I have already said we believe is necessary—to force Russia to withdraw and de-escalate.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, on the—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, on Russia, I welcome the Prime Minister’s suggestion that it is time to make our power, influence and resources felt. May I make a practical and proportionate suggestion that one measure would be to suspend all civil air flights to and from Russia? Ideally, this would cover the whole EU and the USA. Although, Mr Putin would, of course, find methods to fly people in and out of Russia, it would be at a heavy cost, both economically and in terms of Russia’s status in the world.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I take note of the proposal put forward by my noble friend. I do not believe that that is one of the specific steps that we are currently considering but I am happy to talk further to him about his idea.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness reply by not reading the reply to a question she has not heard? She seems to be reading all these answers. Will she answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Warner earlier about why there is such a big difference between the way that Israel is being treated in the crisis that it has created by occupying the West Bank of the Jordan and the far more vigorous treatment being meted out to the Russians when they have not even invaded a country?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have been very clear in responding to the points raised in the course of this Statement. In respect of Gaza, there are three situations that need to be dealt with. The first concerns an immediate ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, and stopping the fighting and bloodshed that are occurring there. Then we need a durable ceasefire to ensure that this kind of situation is not repeated; all parties involved in that need to play their part. Clearly that is the only way of our then moving towards the longer-term situation of ensuring that the Middle East peace process has some prospect of succeeding.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

Will my noble friend confirm that of the more than 500 civilians killed in Gaza, more than 100 were children? Will she therefore give the figure, which has been repeatedly asked for, for the number of Israeli citizens killed by Hamas rockets so that we can understand what the word “disproportionate” means? Will she accept from me, as someone who visited Gaza in the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead, that that amount of carnage and mayhem manifestly did not stop the rockets coming into Israel then, and nor will this? That is surely the point. There is no substitute for the painstaking talks of the kind in which John Kerry was engaged to get Hamas to stop violence against Israel and to get Israel to cease its settlements in the West Bank.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The number of Israeli civilians killed and injured by Gaza rockets amount to two killed and 13 treated for shrapnel-related injuries; 13 Israeli soldiers have been killed during the ground operation. But as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said in her response to my Statement, this is not about comparing numbers. All loss of life is a real tragedy. It is important that we acknowledge that the rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel are indiscriminate. Clearly, we want Israel to respond proportionately and minimise the loss of civilian life. More than anything, we want this situation to stop and the bloodshed to end. That is possible only when both sides cease fire. Certainly, the most important first step in that would be for Hamas to stop firing its rockets.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

On Ukraine, is it not reprehensible that the tragedy of MH17 is being used for so much international political rhetoric? Would it not be better to have some tact and diplomacy? We have heard that the Prime Minister had a 30-minute conversation with Mr Putin. We have heard what financial sanctions were proposed, but presumably during the 30-minute telephone call Mr Putin had something to say. Will the Minister tell us exactly what he said and whether he confirmed that he wished to have an international investigation into the downing of MH17?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The current calls for Russia to de-escalate and the sanctions that we are putting in place are in response to Russian activity in Ukraine, which predates last week’s incident. It would be wrong of the noble Lord to suggest that all our efforts being made now are only on the back of the terrible crime committed on Thursday. What happened on Thursday has focused minds, but it has not led to the start of our demands for Russia to take all the necessary steps to withdraw from its aggression in Ukraine.

As for what President Putin said in response to my right honourable friend, I do not have details of that. I can say to the noble Lord that clearly the conversation that the Prime Minister had with President Putin has had some influence. Thankfully and finally, we are starting to see some co-operation from the separatists in Ukraine to help ensure that the bodies there are treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve, that the right authorities are properly able to do their job, and that we can get to the bottom of just what happened.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, building upon the wise words of my noble friend a moment ago and on the extremely sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord West, does my noble friend accept that if we are not sensible we shall drift into another cold war from which no one will benefit? Could we not ask the Secretary-General of the United Nations to summon a special conference of all the parties to address the Ukrainian situation: to ensure the territorial integrity of Ukraine, a proper recognition of the legitimate interests of Russia, and an end to this drift—as I say—into a new cold war?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to raise the United Nations. I repeat what I have already said: the UK is playing a leading role to secure UN action. There is a meeting of the UN tonight. There is an Australian-led draft resolution, which the United Kingdom very much supports. Along with Australia, we have accelerated discussions on this, which welcomes a Ukrainian-led investigation, containing strong language on access to, and dignity in dealing with, the bodies and incorporating tougher UK language from the draft press statement.

[Lord Williams of Baglan (CB)]

My Lords, in the course of a week we have seen two terrible tragedies claiming hundreds of innocent lives. Other noble Lords have suggested that behind both crises, whether in the Middle East or in Ukraine, we need to see a more proactive diplomacy that is not limited to 30-minute telephone conversations or meetings of the EU Council, but one that resembles diplomacy of the past that confronted international crises. In the dark days of the Cold War, high-level western envoys went to Moscow to meet Kruschev or Brezhnev to address the great crises of the day and try to find solutions. We are not doing that in the case of either Ukraine or the Middle East. Of course it is awful that lives been lost in both cases, but we need to find a diplomacy that meets these crises.

In the case of the Middle East, diplomacy has collapsed. Perhaps it is no accident that events in Gaza follow on six weeks after the collapse of the Middle East peace process. We saw the resignation of the American envoy, Martin Indyk, because of the unwillingness of the Government of Prime Minister Netanyahu to come to an agreement with President Abbas. This is the background to this crisis and this Government must join with others in looking for diplomatic ways forward. Prime Minister Netanyahu’s Government have avoided political solutions. We must impress on him the need for those.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

For the United Kingdom, my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are engaged in diplomatic talks and processes, and I assure all noble Lords that these will continue and that all our energies will be applied to achieving the kind of resolutions that we think are important for all parts of the world where there is conflict.

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, the time is up for the Statement.

Royal Mail Sale

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Time!

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

I am sorry that we have reached the 30 minutes for Question Time and, even though it is me who is at the Dispatch Box next time, I think that it is time that we moved on.

Leader of the House: Cabinet Membership

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Stowell of Beeston)]

My Lords, I will attend Friday’s Cabinet, as my noble friend and predecessor Lord Hill would have done, and will be able to participate fully in Cabinet discussions just as he would have done.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I am sure that I speak for the whole House in congratulating my noble friend on her appointment, and I am sure that she will do a brilliant job as the Leader of the House. The Companion to the Standing Orders, in paragraph 4.03, on page 61, says:

“The Leader of the House is appointed by the Prime Minister, is a member of the Cabinet, and is responsible for the conduct of government business in the Lords”.

It says so because it is vital that the Leader of the House has the authority of a Cabinet Minister, especially given the large volume of legislation that comes from the other place undebated and unconsidered. She needs the authority to be able to say to other Cabinet Ministers, “This will not wash”, and to say to the Prime Minister, “I think you need to think again”.

Can my noble friend reassure me that the Prime Minister will bring the situation into line with our Standing Orders and with the guidance in the Companion? Is she really happy with a situation where, for the first time in the history of this House and of Cabinet government, there is no Cabinet Minister in this House? What sort of signal does that send to the Civil Service and others about the authority of this place in its important duty of revising legislation?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a number of important points. Clearly he is right to question whether the Leader of the House of Lords is fully equipped to do that job. I am absolutely confident that the Prime Minister has given me the authority I need to represent your Lordships in Cabinet. A few months ago, in answer to a Question on another topic, I said that sometimes I liked to think of myself as an action woman. I like to get things done. I do not need status in order to get things done. I have the authority I need and I shall be judged on the work that I do.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have no doubt that the noble Baroness can get things done. This is not about her status; it is about something much more profound. When I heard about this yesterday, I simply did not believe that it could be true. When it was confirmed later in the day, I was deeply dismayed that the Prime Minister could treat this House with such contempt. The men previously appointed to this post by the Prime Minister sat at the Cabinet table as full members. When it is in government, my own party will reverse this. I shall refer the issue to the Constitution Committee and I hope that it will ask the Prime Minister to give evidence.

I have a number of questions but for the moment I will confine myself to this. Other than for a party chair, what are the precedents for a political party paying part of the salary of a Cabinet Minister? Given that the Leader is the Leader of the whole House and not just of the Conservative Benches, surely this is both improper and unethical.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would emphasise to the noble Baroness and to all noble Lords that I shall sit around the same Cabinet table and participate fully in its discussions in exactly the same way as all my predecessors did. It will be a great privilege to do so. As to her question about the salary that the post attracts, I can assure the House that careful consideration is being given to the propriety of any arrangement.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, what is at stake here is not the status of my noble friend but the status of this House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can tell my noble friend that I believe that we have a duty to uphold the reputation of the House as a serious and distinguished institution that serves the public interest. That is what we will be judged on and that is what I intend to do. I hope that I have the support of all noble Lords in fulfilling that responsibility.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, does the Leader accept that she commands the full support of the House? There is no doubt about that. Lest there be any doubt, she should understand that the Cross-Bench Members of this House join with all other noble Lords in saying we believe that it is most important that the Leader of this House is a full member of the Cabinet.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. As I have already said, I understand why noble Lords are raising this issue. However, if I were concerned that the status I have been given as Leader were in any way diluted and would affect the practical way in which I shall conduct myself in fulfilling my responsibilities, I would clearly question it. I do not believe that it does.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I believe that we have not heard from the Lib Dem Benches.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the important aspect of this appointment is that the status of a full member of the Cabinet enjoyed by the former Leader, the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford, is in no way diminished by the present appointment? Would she give a categorical assurance that this will be so?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I say to my noble friend that, in all practical ways, I will contribute to Cabinet in exactly the same way as my predecessor. That is what the Prime Minister asked me to do.

[Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab)]

My Lords, I first join with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, in saying that this Question has nothing to do with the ability or the integrity of the noble Baroness. These issues concern the status of this House. Does not history tell us that since 1902 the Leader of this House has been a full member of the Cabinet? What has happened is not that the noble Baroness has done anything wrong; it is that the Prime Minister has diminished the standing and rank of this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Some historians might question whether there has ever been a Leader of the Lords who was not a full member of the Cabinet. Some documentation I have seen suggests that one of my most distinguished predecessors, my noble friend Lord Carrington, was not a full member of the Cabinet when he was Leader of your Lordships’ House. I refer back to my point that the most important issue, in the context of the status of this House, is how we all conduct our responsibilities.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, it may be true about the time when my noble friend Lord Carrington was Leader of the House, but at least two other Cabinet Ministers at that time were from the House of Lords. Is my noble friend aware that there is no constitutional or formal limit on the size of the Cabinet? The only limit arises on paid members of the Cabinet under the 1975 Act. Therefore, it ought to be possible to arrive at a solution that enables the Cabinet to be large enough to provide what the whole House thinks should happen: that the Leader is a member of the Cabinet.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can assure my noble friend that all options have been carefully explored. The decision the Prime Minister has made is the right one given the constraints under which he has to operate. I share his view on that matter.

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness accept from all of us that she has our wholehearted support? However, can she not understand that this is a matter of constitutional importance? When she stands at the Dispatch Box she represents the whole of this House. When she says, on behalf of the Prime Minister, that she understands his position, will she not accept that no one else in this House does? Will she convey to him, in the strongest possible way, that it is this House’s view that he has committed what amounts to a constitutional outrage that this House does not accept?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I believe that, in making his appointments yesterday, the Prime Minister ensured that we have a Government well equipped to serve the people of this country. I have made the point about the status of the Leader of this House. Clearly, I understand the very strong views that have been expressed during the supplementary questions to this Question. However, for my part, I want to focus on how I do my job and what I do.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I realise that a Private Member’s Bill is now due to be introduced, but this is a self-regulating House and there are two or three more noble Lords who wish to put a supplementary question to the Leader of the House. I have the greatest sympathy for the noble Baroness but I ask whether, in this self-regulating House, those Members who still have a question to put to her can do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I respectfully put to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House that the Act which limits the number of Cabinet members to 23 essentially creates a first and second division. The first division comprises ex officio members of the Cabinet, and that is a special status. In the 300-year life of the Cabinet as we know it, there has never before been a situation when at least one Member of the Lords, and probably more than one Member, was not an ex officio member. Has the Prime Minister done this out of oversight or out of a deliberate policy in relation to this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister clearly has to operate in accordance with the legislation that prescribes how many Cabinet posts can attract a salary. He has made his decisions on his appointments, as he is at liberty to do, and I believe that he has made those decisions properly. I understand that noble Lords want to keep debating this matter but, as there is very little more for me to offer beyond what I have said so far today, I can only repeat what I said: some important points have been made but I am quite clear that the status that the Prime Minister has afforded me accords me to do my job appropriately.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall that when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, he had not just my noble friend Lady Royall as a full member of the Cabinet but my noble friends Lord Mandelson and Lord Adonis as well—there were three full members of the Cabinet. The noble Baroness is Leader of this House. Surely she recognises the view of this House. Why can she not go back to the Prime Minister and say, “This is the view of the House”, and then come and tell us whether the Prime Minister will reconsider his decision in the light of the views of this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the Prime Minister in the previous Government was responsible for the appointments that he made and I am not going to comment on them. However, the one thing that I will say to the noble Lord is that it was the previous Government who decided to make a very substantial constitutional change to this House, leading to the removal of the Lord Chancellor from this House. As I have said, many points have been made in this debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords for what they have said.