Panama Papers

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 11th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, I would like to make a Statement on the Panama papers.

Dealing with my own circumstances first, yesterday I published all the information in my tax returns not just for the last year, but for the last six years. I have also given additional information about money inherited and given to me by my family, so people can see the sources of income that I have: my salary, the benefit in kind of living in No. 10 Downing Street, the support my wife and I have received in my job as leader of the Conservative Party, the renting out of our home and the interest on the savings I have. Since 2010, I have not owned any shares or investments.

The publication of a Prime Minister’s tax information in this way is unprecedented, but I think it is the right thing to do. But let me be clear: I am not suggesting that this should apply to all MPs. The Chancellor has today published information on his tax return, in a similar way to the shadow Chancellor and the First Minister for Scotland. This begs the question of how far the publication of tax information should go. I think there is a strong case for the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition, and for the Chancellor and the shadow Chancellor, because they are people who are or who wish to be responsible for the nation’s finances.

As for MPs, we already have robust rules on Members’ interests and their declaration, and I believe that is the model that we should continue to follow. We should think carefully before abandoning completely all taxpayer confidentiality in this House, as some have suggested. If this were to come in for MPs, people would also ask for a similar approach for those who ask us questions, those who run large public services or lead local government, or indeed those who edit the news programmes or newspapers. I think this would be a very big step for our country. It certainly should not take place without a long and thoughtful debate, and it is not the approach that I would recommend.

Let me deal specifically with the shares my wife and I held in an investment fund or unit trust called Blairmore Holdings, set up by my late father. The fund was registered with the UK’s Inland Revenue from the beginning. It was properly audited, and an annual return was submitted to the Inland Revenue every year. Its share price was listed in the Financial Times. It was not a family trust; it was a commercial investment fund for any investor to buy units in. UK investors paid all the same taxes as with any other share, including income tax on the dividends every year.

There have been some deeply hurtful and profoundly untrue allegations made against my father, and I want to put the record straight. This investment fund was set up overseas in the first place because it was going to be trading predominantly in dollar securities, so like very many other commercial investment funds, it made sense to be set up inside one of the main centres of dollar trading.

There are thousands of these investment funds and many millions of people in Britain own shares, many of whom hold them through investment funds or unit trusts. Such funds, including those listed outside the UK, are included in the pension funds of local government, most of Britain’s largest companies and, indeed, even some trade unions. Even a quick look shows that the BBC, the Mirror Group, Guardian Newspapers and—to pick one council entirely at random—Islington all have these sorts of overseas investments. To give one further example, Trade Union Fund Managers Ltd, based in Congress House, has a portfolio of more than £50 million of investment in the trade union unit trust, with 3% of its net assets based in Jersey. This is not to criticise what it does; it is to make the point that this is an entirely standard practice, and it is not to avoid tax.

One of the country’s leading tax lawyers, Graham Aaronson, QC, has stated unequivocally that this was,

‘a perfectly normal type of collective investment fund’.

This is the man who led the expert study group that developed the general anti-abuse rule—so much debated and demanded in this House—which Parliament finally enacted in 2013. He also chaired the 1997 examination of tax avoidance by the Tax Law Review Committee. He has said that it would be,

‘quite wrong to describe the establishment of such funds as “tax avoidance”’.

and, further, that,

‘it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that establishing or investing in such funds would involve abusive tax avoidance’.

That is why getting rid of unit trusts and other such investment funds that are listed overseas has not been part of any Labour policy review, any Conservative Party policy review or any sensible proposals for addressing tax evasion or aggressive tax avoidance.

Surely, it is said, investors in these funds benefit from their being set up in jurisdictions with low or no taxes. Again, this is a misunderstanding. Unit trusts exist to make profit not for themselves but for the holders of the units. Those holders pay tax, and if they are UK citizens, they pay full UK taxes.

It is right to tighten the law and change the culture around investment to further outlaw tax evasion and discourage aggressive tax avoidance, but as we do so, we should differentiate between schemes designed to artificially reduce tax and those that are encouraging investment. This is a Government—and this should be a country—who believe in aspiration and wealth creation. We should defend the right of every British citizen to make money lawfully. Aspiration and wealth creation are not somehow dirty words. They are the key engines of growth and prosperity in our country and we must always support those who want to own shares and make investments to support their families.

Some people have asked, ‘If this trust was legitimate, why did you sell your shares in January 2010?’. I sold all the shares in my portfolio that year because I did not want any issues about conflicts of interest—I did not want anyone to be able to suggest that, as Prime Minister, I had any other agendas or vested interests. Selling all my shares was the simplest and clearest way that I could do that.

There are strict rules in this House for the registration of shareholdings. I have followed them in full. The Labour Party has said it will refer me to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. I have already given her the relevant information, and if there is more she believes I should say, I am very happy to say it.

I accept all of the criticisms for not responding more quickly to these issues last week, but, as I have said, I was angry about the way my father’s memory was being traduced. I know he was a hard-working man and a wonderful dad, and I am proud of everything he did to build a business and provide for his family.

On the issue of inheritance tax, there is an established system in this country. I believe that, far from people being embarrassed about passing things to their children—for example, wanting to keep a family home within the family—it is a natural human instinct and something that should be encouraged. As for parents passing money to their children while they are still alive, that is something that the tax rules fully recognise. Many parents want to help their children when they buy their first car, get a deposit for their first home or face the costs of starting a family. It is entirely natural that parents should want to do those things, and, again, something that we should not just defend but proudly support.

Let me turn to the Panama papers and the actions that this Government are taking to deal with tax evasion, aggressive tax avoidance and international corruption more broadly. When we came into office, there were foreigners not paying capital gains tax when selling their UK homes, private equity managers paying a lower rate of tax than the people who cleaned their offices, and rich homebuyers getting away without paying stamp duty because houses were enveloped within companies. We have put an end to all those things. In the last Parliament alone, we made an unprecedented 40 tax changes to close loopholes, raising £12 billion. In this Parliament, we will legislate for more than 25 further measures, forecast to raise £16 billion by 2021. No British Government, Labour or Conservative, have ever taken so much robust action in this area.

Through my chairmanship of the G8 at the summit at Lough Erne in 2013, I put tax, trade and transparency on the global agenda, and sought agreement on a global standard for the automatic exchange of information over who pays taxes and where. Many said it would never happen, but today 129 jurisdictions have committed to implementing the international standard for exchange of tax information on request, and more than 95 jurisdictions have committed to implementing the new global common reporting standard on tax transparency. Under that new standard, we will receive information on accounts of UK taxpayers in all those jurisdictions. In June this year, Britain will become the first country in the G20 to have a public register of beneficial ownership, so everyone can see who really owns and controls each company. This Government are also consulting on requiring foreign companies that own property or bid on public contracts to also provide their beneficial ownership information, and we are happy to offer technical support and assistance to any of the devolved Administrations also considering these measures.

However, as the revelations in the Panama papers have made clear, we need to go even further. We are taking three additional measures to make it harder for people to hide the proceeds of corruption offshore; to make sure that those who smooth the way can no longer get away with it; and to investigate wrongdoing. First, let me deal with our Crown dependencies and our overseas territories that function as financial centres. They have already agreed to exchange taxpayer financial account information automatically, and will begin doing so from this September. That never happened before I became Prime Minister and got them round the Cabinet table and said to them that this must happen. But we need to go further. Today I can tell the House that we have now agreed that they will provide UK law enforcement and tax agencies with full access to information on the beneficial ownership of companies. We have finalised arrangements with all of them, except Anguilla and Guernsey, both of which we believe will follow in the coming days and months. For the first time, UK police and law enforcement will be able to see exactly who really owns and controls every company incorporated in these territories—the Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, Bermuda, the Isle of Man, Jersey, the lot. This is the result of a sustained campaign, building on the progress we made at the G8, and I welcome the commitment of the Governments of those territories to work with us and to implement these arrangements. The House should note that this will place our overseas territories and Crown dependencies well ahead of many other similar jurisdictions but also, crucially, ahead of many of our major international partners, including some states in the United States of America. Next month we will seek to go further still, using our anti-corruption summit to encourage consensus not just on exchanging information but on publishing it and putting it in the public domain, as we are doing here in the UK. We want everyone with a stake in fighting corruption, from law enforcement to civil society and the media, to be able use these data and help us root out and deter wrongdoing.

Next, we will take another major step forward in dealing with those who facilitate corruption. Under current legislation, it is difficult to prosecute a company that assists with tax evasion, but we are going to change that. We will legislate this year for a new criminal offence to apply to corporations that fail to prevent their representatives from criminally facilitating tax evasion. Finally, we are providing initial new funding of up to £10 million for a new cross-agency task force to swiftly analyse all the information that has been made available from Panama and take rapid action. The task force will include analysts, compliance specialists and investigators from across HMRC, the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office and the Financial Conduct Authority.

This Government will continue to lead the international agenda to crack down on tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance. This battle is important and it needs to be combined with the approach that we take in this country. Having low tax rates but taxes that people and businesses pay is how we will tackle these issues and build a strong economy that can fund the public services we need. It is that strong economy, creating jobs and rewarding aspiration, that is the true focus of this Government, and something that would never be safe under the party opposite. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement. As I observed to my noble friend Lady Kramer, if when we went into recess on 23 March we had thought that on the first day back there would be a Statement entitled “Panama Papers”, we would wonder what in the world had been going on. However, they relate to a very important issue because it is at the core of our politics.

It is, I think, agreed on all sides of your Lordships’ House that people in this country should have full confidence in our leaders and that when decisions are made and Budgets are written there is not even the slightest hint of a conflict of interest or personal gain. Regrettably, we are now in a position where not only do people no longer have complete faith in this Government’s decisions but, more fundamentally, trust in politics and in our ability to get things done has been damaged by the events of the past week. It is a poor indictment of our political system that there is now such a great demand to see politicians’ tax affairs and that trust in politics is now so low that there is almost an assumption that a politician is doing wrong, playing the system or is “at it”, and there is the cynicism referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. In the nearly 33 years since I was first elected to the House of Commons, I have known politicians from right across the political spectrum. With very few exceptions, I can say that whatever our differences in political outlook—and some of the differences have been quite fundamental—my experience has been of men and women united in the common purpose of public service. Sadly, that is not always the common perception, so there must be change.

There has been some discussion about the Prime Minister’s personal affairs. Frankly, they are beside the point. Indeed, if this issue triggers an avalanche of published tax returns, and consequent personalisation as they are pored over and individuals are identified, there is a danger that the fundamental point of the weaknesses in the current system will be missed. For, miles removed from the Prime Minister’s personal tax affairs, these Panama papers have shown up dictators stealing from their people from Sudan to Syria, from the family of Mubarak to the friends of Putin, aiding warlords and leaders ripping off developing countries which need the most help. The epicentre of much of this activity would appear to be in a number of British Overseas Territories. At its peak in 2005, it was claimed that there were more than 7,000 somewhat dodgy deals in the British Virgin Islands alone. We have some responsibilities there, so can the Leader of the House guarantee that the Prime Minister will use the options available to him to ensure that those under the UK’s watch can no longer be complicit in helping dictators and other unsavoury characters?

When, not so long ago, the Prime Minister asked British Overseas Territories to reform their activities, particularly in relation to disclosure of beneficial interests in companies registered there, they said no, and he backed down, but today we are told that they will provide UK law enforcement and tax agencies with full access to information on the beneficial ownership of companies. That turnaround is very welcome, but can the noble Baroness tell us whether at the anti-corruption summit this May it is intended to press overseas territories to make available to tax authorities in other countries with a legitimate interest in the information a central list of beneficial ownership in each fund created?

In coalition government, the coalition parties, including the Liberal Democrats, took unprecedented action to clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion, very much at the prompting of my colleague Danny Alexander. I am sure the noble Baroness will like to confirm that we made 42 changes to tax law, closing down loopholes and making strategic changes to deter and prevent tax avoidance. We invested nearly £1 billion in HMRC to make sure that everyone pays their fair share of tax and increased the number of staff working to tackle tax avoidance by 2,500. Will she confirm that we strengthened the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes—DOTAS—regime and introduced a tougher monitoring regime and penalties for high-risk promoters of tax avoidance schemes?

Will she also agree that there is more that can and should be done? Indeed, in March my party leader, Tim Farron, asked my colleague Vince Cable to lead a major review on tax to ensure that people can have faith in the system and to make sure it works in a truly globalised world. I hope that, in a spirit of non-partisanship, when that work is done the Government will be willing to look at it closely. We will of course want to examine closely criminalising those who assist in evasion, which has been announced by the Prime Minister, but can the noble Baroness confirm that that is the same policy that Mr Danny Alexander announced on 19 March 2015, when he unveiled plans to,

“make it a criminal offence for corporates to fail to prevent tax evasion or the facilitation of tax evasion on their watch”?

The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition foreshadowed that question. I am quoting from a press release by Her Majesty’s Treasury. Is this a reannouncement or is there is really something new?

In a similar view, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House look again at some of the other proposals trying to tackle tax evasion that my right honourable friends put forward during the coalition, which were blocked by her party? Does she also recognise that the current anti-abuse rules, while an excellent start, can and should go further? Will the Government strengthen the penalties for participating in repeated avoidance schemes? Does she recognise that the changes the Government are bringing in will not even allow someone to be named unless they have been involved in three separate avoidance schemes, and that this is does not go far enough?

At the weekend, the secretary of the Church of Scotland’s Church and Society Council, the Reverend Martin Johnstone, tweeted:

“I hear #DavidCameron is being discriminated against for being rich. It's tough but easier than being discriminated against for being poor”.

In all this, we must not lose sight of what is really at stake: the need to rebuild faith in our politics by doing what matters, by reaching out and helping people, and by having a politics that works for people and their communities when it is their interests that are at the heart of how things are done. We must not lose this opportunity to change the system, so will the noble Baroness assure the House that the Prime Minister’s announcement today will be the start of a process to strengthen our anti-abuse rules and to rebuild trust in our politics?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as always, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord for their remarks. Before I respond to some of the specific questions that they put to me, I want to re-emphasise a couple of points in the Prime Minister’s Statement. While David Cameron has been Prime Minister of this country, we have done more to tackle tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance than any Government before we came to power. Some of the evidence to illustrate the impact of our action has already been highlighted. We made 40 tax changes to close off loopholes which have brought in £12 billion. We have brought in £2 billion from offshore tax evaders since 2010. One of the points which is worth me highlighting, which has not been fully recognised, is that all this action, whether on tax avoidance or on closing tax loopholes generally, means that the gap between tax owed and tax paid is now at its narrowest point ever. That illustrates how much we believe in making sure that people pay the taxes they owe and that the actions we have taken have had a positive effect.

We have been leading efforts worldwide; it is not just about the things that we have done in this country. Thanks to the work of the UK, more than 90 countries have signed up to the automatic exchange of information. That means that agencies such as HMRC can now pursue avoiders and evaders in ways that they have never been able to before. Our determination to tackle corporate secrecy by shining a light on beneficial owners is going to be game-changing. I get civil servants briefing me on some of these technical matters, and when you start asking questions, you realise just how different things will be when all these measures are in place. I do not think that that has been properly understood and recognised. It is the right thing for us to do.

The anti-corruption summit that the Prime Minister will be hosting next month is the first one ever, and it follows from him taking the lead at the G8 in 2013. The noble and learned Lord is right that while we did a lot when we were in coalition with the Lib Dems, there is more to do and we will continue to pursue this while we are in government because it is absolutely the right thing for us to do.

I turn to the specific questions asked by the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord. I was asked about the new criminal offence. I would not want to say that the Lib Dems in coalition or indeed Danny Alexander should take credit in quite the same universal way that the noble and learned Lord was trying to claim in his remarks, but it is true to say that this is a new criminal offence, previously announced, and a lot of work has been undertaken in consultation to prepare for this legislation. That is a good thing. It is good that it has taken time for this to come through and that it has been widely consulted upon. It is not a knee-jerk reaction to any of the events of the past week; it will be properly thought-through new legislation. It will be part of the Queen’s Speech, and we will hear more about that when we introduce the legislation later this year.

The noble Baroness asked me why further consultation on the legislation was necessary. I do not think we are trying to pursue further consultation. The consultation has happened and we have produced a written response to it. As she would expect, as we finalise legislation—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

This is a Statement and I am responding to questions. If there is more information on this that I can provide afterwards then I will write to the noble Baroness if there is something specific.

The noble Baroness asked about the European Commission and what was described as the Prime Minister blocking something that the European Commission wanted to pursue by way of disclosure of the beneficiaries of trusts. At the time that the Prime Minister wrote his letter, the Government were concerned that what was proposed by the commission, which included all trusts, would distract from action against those areas of most concern, such as shell companies, and in practice these further changes were not achievable. In the subsequent negotiations we were able to secure a sensible way forward that ensures that trusts that generate tax consequences have to report their ownership to HMRC. In layman’s terms, I would say that that means the automatic exchange of information will very much provide the data and the information that are needed for the relevant agencies to pursue tax avoidance and evasion.

The noble Baroness asked about bearer shares. In the same letter to the noble Baroness I will provide further detail on the new legislation if I can, but it is fair to say that there are very few countries now that permit the issuance of bearer shares as a result of the work of the global forum on tax transparency, which we were very much in the lead on.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, asked about some specific issues, most of which I think I have covered. He asked about the collection by Crown dependencies and overseas territories of data that will be available to our law enforcement agencies in this country. We are going to publish our own public register of beneficial ownership. The Crown dependencies and overseas territories will for the first time be collecting the data and making them available to the United Kingdom. I am not able to answer the noble and learned Lord’s specific question except to say to him, as the Prime Minister made clear in his Statement, that what these Crown dependencies and overseas territories are now committed to doing on the collection of data for us on their beneficial ownership—and, I should add, doing it with regard to the automatic exchange of information a year earlier than any of the other countries that have signed up to doing this—is something that many of our partner countries, such as states in the United States of America, do not even collate. The overseas territories and Crown dependencies are going to be collating it. That is a very big step forward, and we will continue to make all the progress that we can to ensure that in this country we go after aggressive tax avoidance. We will pursue every avenue that we possibly can.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, on the question of international corruption, will the Government now abolish the tier 1 visa system, established in its present form by the coalition? It is effectively an arrangement for selling passports to wealthy foreigners with such due diligence as is performed carried out by banks, which the National Crime Agency tells us are laundering billions of dollars every year. For a loan to the Government of as little as £2 million invested in gilts, a so-called international investor can acquire the right to reside in Britain. Is the noble Baroness aware that this is a charter for money laundering while, in the words of the Migration Advisory Committee, bringing “absolutely no gain” to Britain in terms of the kind of international investment that we ought to be seeking? The largest number of tier 1 visas have been granted to wealthy individuals from Russia and China, many of whom have used their money to force up the price of homes in London, with the cascade of misery that follows from that. Will Russia and China be attending the anti-corruption summit in May?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am not able to provide a full guest list of those who are going to be at the anti-corruption summit in May. On the noble Lord’s question about tier 1 visas, that is a matter that I will have to follow up with him in writing: it is not one that I have information on right now. I can say to him that part of the action that this Government have been taking over the past few years and will continue to take is about tackling money laundering. What we are trying to do here is tackle crimes. We want to eradicate corruption. We want to go after the criminals and do everything that we can. If there are avenues open to us that we have not yet pursued, we will be pursuing them with great vigour because that is what we want to achieve. All I can do is reassure the noble Lord that a lot has been done, but clearly there is more. If there is more that we can do, we will not be shy in coming forward with further steps.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness said that the gap in this country between tax due and tax paid is narrower than it has ever been. How does she know? How does she, or anyone, calculate the amount of tax that is due but undeclared and unpaid?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That is something that is an established way of recording. The noble Lord has challenged me, and I feel that I am entering into a zone where I am going to be asked about lots of technical financial matters that I am afraid I am probably not the best person to be able to respond on in detail. If I can provide the noble Lord with further information in writing, I will, but I assure him that this is a statement of fact and, I say to him, one that surely it should be pleasing to hear. We want to ensure that we collect as much tax as we possibly can. If we are collecting more than we have ever done before, that is a good thing.

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry]

My Lords, I am mindful that the OECD has estimated that tax havens may be costing developing countries up to three times the global aid budget. I am also mindful of the role of UK overseas territories and Crown dependencies in the international movement of finance. I very much welcome the Prime Minister’s Statement about transparency and making the exchange of information available to particular agencies, and I also welcome the clarifications that the noble Baroness the Leader of the House gave. Perhaps I may ask for a little clarification on the Prime Minister’s point about taking that further and putting the information in the public domain. Am I right in thinking that, as well as encouraging other countries to do that, there will be a particular focus on the UK overseas territories and Crown dependencies, bearing in mind our responsibilities towards them and with them?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I can tell the right reverend Prelate that the register of beneficial ownership, which will be established in the United Kingdom, will, from June, be available publicly to anybody who wants to access it.

The overseas territories and Crown dependencies have committed to collate the relevant information on beneficial ownership so that our law enforcement agencies are able to access it. That is a step forward and a significant improvement on the current situation. They have not committed to preparing a public register but nor has any other country around the world, so I think we should acknowledge the positive steps that the Crown dependencies and overseas territories are taking. Clearly, we will continue to work with them so that they always look at taking further steps. We will make sure that they are in a strong position by adopting the standards that we would expect of any overseas territory, any Crown dependency or any place associated with the United Kingdom, so that they are chosen as places where those who are respected can invest in a respectful way and so that they, as nations, can prosper from those investments.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has set a precedent by publishing his tax arrangements. I gather that others have followed suit, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right honourable friend the leader of the Opposition. Does the noble Baroness the Leader of this House think that this is a precedent that should extend to Members of your Lordships’ House, as it is clearly going to be an inexorable precedent in the other place?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the Prime Minister made clear in his Statement why he thinks it is appropriate for him and the Chancellor, as those responsible for the nation’s finances, to publish their tax returns. He also explained why he does not believe that that should be extended to other public figures. Your Lordships’ House has very clear rules about us all being UK residents and UK domiciled for tax purposes, and those were brought in just before the 2010 election. There is a very clear and robust requirement in terms of the register of interests. I remind noble Lords that a failure to make a declaration or entry in the register is a very serious matter, and any claims of any of us not doing so properly are pursued rigorously. I would always urge anybody who has any information on any of us that they want to see pursued to submit their complaint to the commissioner. We have that strong regime in place but clearly we must always keep under review how our code of conduct works, how we apply it and how it is administered, and that is a matter of course and of routine. However, the Prime Minister has made clear his views on extending the declaration that he has made today and the publication of income tax returns, and at the moment I do not see us going beyond that.

Aviation: Sustainable Fuel

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rotherwick (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. It is actually the turn of the Liberal Democrats, as we have not heard from them yet on this Question.

[Baroness Randerson]

Does the Minister accept that we need to work with international partners in order to develop the use of sustainable aviation fuels? Does he accept the importance of the European Union as one of our international partners, so it is important for us to remain a member of the European Union?

European Council: March 2016

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on last week’s European Council, which focused on the migration crisis affecting continental Europe. The single biggest cause has of course been the war in Syria and the brutality of the Assad regime. But we have also seen huge growth in the number of people coming to southern Europe from Afghanistan, Pakistan and north Africa, all facilitated by the rapid growth of criminal networks of people-smugglers. More than 8,000 migrants are still arriving in Greece every week and there are signs that the numbers using the central Mediterranean route are on the rise again. So far 10,000 have come this year.

Of course, because of our special status in the European Union, Britain is not part of the Schengen open border arrangements—and we are not going to be joining. We have our own border controls and they apply to everyone trying to enter our country, including EU citizens. So people cannot travel through Greece or Italy onward to continental Europe and into Britain and that will not change. But it is in our national interest to help our European partners to deal effectively with this enormous and destabilising challenge.

We have argued for a consistent and clear approach right from the start: ending the conflict in Syria; supporting the refugees in the region; securing European borders; taking refugees directly from the camps and neighbouring countries but not from Europe; and cracking down on people-smuggling gangs. This approach of focusing on the problem upstream has now been universally accepted in Europe, and at this Council it was taken forward with a comprehensive plan for the first time.

As part of this plan, the Council agreed to stop migrants leaving Turkey in the first place; to intercept those who do leave while they are at sea, turning back their boats; and to return to Turkey those who make it to Greece. There can be no guarantees of success but, if this plan is properly and fully implemented, in my view it will be the best chance to make a difference. For the first time we have a plan that breaks the business model of the people-smugglers by breaking the link between getting in a boat and getting settlement in Europe.

I want to be clear about what Britain is doing—and what we are not doing—as a result of this plan. What we are doing is contributing our expertise and our skilled officials to help with the large-scale operation now under way. The Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship “Mounts Bay” and Border Force vessels are already patrolling the Aegean. British asylum experts and interpreters are already working in Greece to help to process individual cases. At the Council I said that Britain stands ready to do even more to support these efforts. Above all, what is needed—and what we have been pushing for—is a detailed plan to implement this agreement and to ensure that all the offers of support that are coming from around Europe are properly co-ordinated. Our share of the additional money, which will go to helping refugees in Turkey under this agreement, will come from our existing aid budget.

But let me also be clear what we are not doing. First, we are not giving visa-free access to Turks coming to the UK. Schengen countries are planning to give visa-free access to Turks but, because we are not part of Schengen, we are not bound by their decision. We have made our own decision, which is to maintain our own borders, and we will not be giving that visa-free access.

Secondly, visa-free access to Schengen countries will not mean a backdoor route to Britain. As the House knows, visa-free access means only the right to visit. It does not mean a right to work. It does not mean a right to settle. Just because, for instance, British citizens can enjoy visa-free travel for holidays in America, that does not mean that they can work, let alone settle, there. Nor will this give Turkish citizens those rights in the EU.

Thirdly, we will not be taking more refugees as a result of this deal. A number of Syrians who are in camps in Turkey will be resettled into the Schengen countries of the EU but, again, that does not apply to Britain. We have already got our resettlement programme and we are delivering on that. We said that we would resettle 20,000 Syrian refugees over this Parliament, taking them directly from the camps, and that is what we are doing. We promised that 1,000 would be resettled here in time for last Christmas and that is what we delivered.

The other 27 EU countries agreed to two schemes. One was to relocate 160,000 within the EU, but by the time of last December’s Council, only 208 people had been relocated. The second was to have a voluntary resettlement scheme for 22,500 from outside the EU, but by the end of last year just 483 refugees had been resettled throughout the 27 countries.

We said what we would do and we are doing it. Britain has given more money to support Syrians fleeing the war, and the countries hosting them, than any other European country. Indeed, we are doing more than any country in the world other than the United States, spending more than £1 billion so far, with another £1.3 billion pledged. We are fulfilling our moral responsibility as a nation.

Turning to the central Mediterranean, the EU naval operation that we established last summer has had some success, with more than 90 vessels destroyed and more than 50 smugglers arrested. HMS “Enterprise” is taking part and we will continue her deployment throughout the summer.

What is desperately needed is a Government in Libya with whom we can work, so that we can co-operate with the Libyan coastguard, in Libyan waters, to turn back the boats and stop the smugglers there, too. There is now a new Prime Minister and a Government whom we have recognised as the sole legitimate authority in Libya. These are very early days, but we must do what we can to try to make this work. That is why at this Council I brought together leaders from France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Malta to ensure that we are all ready to provide as much support as possible.

Turning to other matters at the Council, I took the opportunity to deal with a long-standing issue that we have had about the VAT rate on sanitary products. We have some EU-wide VAT rules in order to make the single market work, but the system has been far too inflexible and this causes understandable frustration. We said that we would get this changed and that is exactly what we have done. The Council conclusions confirm that the European Commission will produce a proposal in the next few days to allow countries to extend the number of zero rates for VAT, including on sanitary products. This is an important breakthrough. It means that Britain will be able to have a zero rate for sanitary products, meaning the end of the tampon tax. On this basis, the Government will be accepting both the amendments put down to the Finance Bill tomorrow night.

My right honourable friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green spent almost a decade campaigning for welfare reform and improving people’s life chances and he has spent the last six years implementing those policies in government. In that time, we have seen nearly half a million fewer children living in workless households, more than a million fewer people on out-of-work benefits and nearly 2.4 million more people in work. In spite of having to take difficult decisions on the deficit, child poverty, inequality and pensioner poverty are all down. My right honourable friend contributed an enormous amount to the work of this Government and he can be proud of what he achieved.

This Government will continue to give the highest priority to improving the life chances of the poorest in our country. We will continue to reform our schools. We will continue to fund childcare and create jobs. We will carry on cutting taxes for the lowest paid. In the last Parliament, we took 4 million of the lowest-paid people out of income tax altogether and our further rises to the personal allowance will take many more out, too. Combined with this, we will go on with our plans to rebuild sink estates, to help those with mental health conditions, to extend our troubled families programme, to reform our prisons and to tackle discrimination for those whose life chances suffer because of the colour of their skin. In two weeks’ time, we will introduce the first ever national living wage, giving a pay rise to the poorest people in our country. All of this is driven by a deeply held conviction that everyone in Britain should have the chance to make the most of their lives.

Let me add this. None of this would be possible if it was not for the actions of this Government and the work of my right honourable friend the Chancellor in turning our economy around. We can only improve life chances if our economy is secure and strong. Without sound public finances, you end up having to raise taxes or make even deeper cuts in spending. You do not get more opportunity that way; you get less opportunity that way. When that happens, it is working people who suffer, as we saw in Labour’s recession. So we must continue to cut the deficit, control the cost of welfare and live within our means. We must not burden our children and grandchildren with debts that we did not have the courage to pay off ourselves. Securing our economy and extending opportunity, we will continue with this approach in full, because we are a modern, compassionate, one-nation Conservative Government. I commend the Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. Given that much of it was about Turkey, I am sure that she and the House as a whole wish to place on record our condolences to the families of those who have been the victims of recent terrorism atrocities in both Ankara and Istanbul.

Faced with such an immense challenge, it would be unreasonable to doubt the good faith of those who have strived to reach some agreement between the European Union and Turkey over the past few days, but it should not come as a surprise when I say that we on these Benches have serious misgivings about the EU-Turkey deal which has emerged from the European Council meeting. The United Kingdom should be leading by example in the response to the refugee crisis. We should be using a significant influence to fight for an EU-wide response that is fair, just and respect the values that this country holds dear. Credit where credit is due: where this Government have played a leading role, such as in encouraging humanitarian relief in Syria and the region, we have been successful, not least at the Syria donor conference in London last month.

However, when we look at the agreement and the Statement from the Prime Minister, we find it shameful that the United Kingdom is demonstrating such reluctance to stand up for vulnerable refugees who have fled from war and terror. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, gave very clear substance to what those people are facing. Our continued inaction does not do justice to Britain’s history and values.

When one reads the Prime Minister’s Statement, one finds that we will not be taking more refugees as a result of this deal. Put that in a context where people are facing misery and need. One wonders whether this is really a manifestation of compassionate conservatism.

Safe and legal routes are crucial for moving the current process forward. The vast majority of refugees fleeing Syria and Iraq choose to stay in the region, as close to their homes as possible, but for those who cannot survive in the region, routes must be available to apply for asylum not only in the United Kingdom but in other countries as well. On these Benches, we support the measures set out by the United Nations High Commission on Refugees on 4 March: humanitarian admission programmes, private sponsorships, family reunions, student scholarships and labour mobility schemes. Direct resettlement from the region is part of that, and we should be scaling up our resettlement programme. Twenty thousand people over five years is insufficient. The United Kingdom should use its leadership in Europe to encourage other European countries to scale up their own programmes of direct resettlement.

We also need a system in place for those already in Europe, including the estimated 26,000 children who arrived in 2015, 10,000 of whom are now missing. In the vote in the earlier Division, the House made its view very clear on that.

On previous occasions the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and other Ministers have tried to argue that, by accepting those seeking asylum who have travelled the fraught journey to continental Europe, we are only encouraging more people to do so. I have always thought that it was a bit like saying that the Good Samaritan should really have passed by on the other side because, by stopping to help, he was only encouraging more acts of highway robbery on the road between Jericho and Jerusalem. If, as the Statement hopes, the agreement breaks the business model of the people smugglers, what reason is there then for us not taking an equitable share of those who are already in continental Europe?

Clearly, the Dublin system is not currently sufficient to deal with this crisis. Instead, the United Kingdom should encourage the European Union to develop European-wide systems of responsibility for asylum seekers, including setting up a system for asylum requests to be distributed equitably across EU member states which takes account of different demographic projections, such as the high net migration in the United Kingdom, compared to forecast population decreases elsewhere.

Turning to the specifics, many people and well-recognised organisations have expressed concern that the proposals as they stand seek to address only the short-term concerns over European borders. Serious questions were raised after the 7 March proposals were published as to their standing in European Union and international law. Will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House give the House the Government’s assessment of the international legal position in relation to this agreement? Can she give details of how full and proper asylum determination procedure will be carried out in Greece in full compliance with European Union law? The agreement states:

“People who do not have a right to international protection will be immediately returned to Turkey”.

Can the noble Baroness provide more detail on who that covers? What provision is made for families and children, given that children and women now make up 60% of those crossing to Europe? Will those who have the right to international protection be granted asylum only in Greece, or will they be relocated elsewhere?

The one-for-one arrangement appears to apply only to Syrian refugees. What is the position regarding other nationalities, such as Iraqis and Afghans, who are also fleeing conflict areas? Not surprisingly, Greece is having great difficulty processing the number of people through the relocation provisions, so can the noble Baroness give us some detail as to how quickly people will be assessed and indicate what provision the United Kingdom is making for the assessment process?

There appears to be little in the way of concrete proposals to tackle trafficking within Turkey and other launch points, including Libya. Although we would like a full investigation into the cash flows of the smuggling businesses, in the mean time, can the noble Baroness assure the House that the money provided by the European Union to improve humanitarian conditions for refugees in Turkey will be closely monitored and, where possible, be funded through international organisations, including UNHCR, UNICEF and other NGOs?

Finally, the EU-Turkey statement reaffirms a commitment to re-energise the accession process. We have supported Turkey’s application, but I do not think that anyone can be under any illusion that, however important it is, it will be a difficult and probably long process. Can the Leader of the House assure us and confirm that, given some of the actions of the Turkish authorities in recent months, there will be no watering down of the justice and rule-of-law requirements of EU membership?

In conclusion, we have seen in recent days the real colour of this Government on this and other issues. Whether it is in relation to the incredibly vulnerable unaccompanied children and families seeking refuge in Europe or the Chancellor of the Exchequer trying to pay for his bonus for the wealthy by punishing disabled people, it appears that, time and again, this Government’s choices are driven by cynical politics and public image rather than economic necessity or indeed humanitarian concern.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord for their responses. First, I join the noble and learned Lord in his tribute to and concern for the people in Turkey who have suffered at the hands of recent terrorist attacks.

I start by emphasising that a major development came out of the Council meeting last weekend. For the first time, there is now a serious and comprehensive proposal to deal with this very serious migration and refugee crisis in Europe. We, the United Kingdom, played a part in getting the programme in place, and we are proud that we are at the table and doing just that. As has been acknowledged, if it is properly implemented, the deal with Turkey will break the business model of those very wicked people, the people smugglers, by breaking the link between getting in one of their boats and getting resettlement in Europe. The purpose of that is to deter the most desperate people—the noble Baroness is absolutely right—from embarking on a very perilous journey to find refuge. This European Union programme for refugees in Turkey is comprehensive, and builds on the bilateral support that the United Kingdom is already providing to the many Syrian refugees in Turkey. One thing that is important for me to acknowledge, which is in a way a response to some of the points that have been raised by the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord, is the generosity of the people of Turkey in providing that refuge to so many people in their country. What we and the European Union are doing by introducing this programme and providing the financial support for Turkey is for that money to go very much to providing respite, refuge and an alternative, albeit temporary, way of life, until those very desperate people can return to their country.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord asked how we could ensure that this new programme could comply with international and European law. Of course, there is no way that we would sign up to any scheme that was not compliant with international law—and nor would any member of the European Union or the European Union itself. Of that we can be confident. As for the support to those who arrive in Greece and seek refuge and asylum there, the new processing centres or hotspots will include interpreting advice and ensure that they are all treated as individuals, in terms of their cases, as international law requires.

The noble Baroness asked about Turkish travel documents. Clearly, most of the people coming from Turkey are from Syria, but there are people coming through that route from other countries who are not from Syria. For the one-for-one scheme to apply, when a refugee from Syria is returned to Turkey, another refugee has the opportunity to be settled in Europe. Those who use that route who are not from Syria, whether they come from Afghanistan or Pakistan, will be returned to Turkey but not be part of that scheme.

The noble and learned Lord asked how quickly people would be processed. I do not have any further details on how the scheme will be implemented at the moment, except to say that the implementation phase now is under way, which is one of the things that the United Kingdom is contributing to—actually getting that expertise there on the ground, to assist Greece in being able to process people. The noble Baroness asked about support to Greece so that it can handle this situation. That is very much part of this arrangement, and we have contributed additional funds to Greece for that purpose.

We can be confident that this programme is a response to the leadership that our Prime Minister took in Europe to come up with a plan very much targeted at addressing the root cause of the terrible situation and crisis in Europe at the moment. We have to deal with the political situation in Syria, clearly, but we have to support people as far as we can in countries close to their own country and break this terrible, wicked scheme, which criminals are making money out of and which puts so many people at risk.

On the other points that were raised, and on what the noble Baroness said about the tampon tax and VAT on sanitary products, and the story that she relayed from the time of the noble Baroness, Lady Primarolo, in the Treasury, I find that absolutely shocking. I cannot believe that razor blades are considered essential and sanitary wear not. I also find it quite surprising to hear men on the television and in Chambers such as this using the word “tampon”. I still find that in itself quite a revelation, but I am pleased that finally after all this time we have been able to address that unfairness and do something about it.

In response to some of the points that the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord made about recent events, as I said in concluding the Prime Minister’s Statement, I say again that this is a one-nation Conservative Government, and we are very much determined to support everybody in this country. I make it clear to your Lordships’ House how proud I am to be a member of this Government, alongside everybody who sits around that Cabinet table.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

Would it be fair to say that this is a very important moment for the European Union, having for the first time agreed something concrete, if very difficult to implement, in this Statement? It goes to show that, when we are at the table, we can play a positive part in the deliberations of the European Union, as a country, and the result in this case is one that we would not have been able to contribute to if we had not been a part. Therefore, the moral of the story is very clear: whether or not we were part of the problem, we are certainly shaping up as a European Union, together, to be part of the solution.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that it is because we are there at the table that we have been able to be influential in coming up with this comprehensive plan to deal with this very serious situation. Not only is that good, because it makes sure that we can fight for Britain’s interests in coming up with a solution, but also, if we were not at the table, this problem would still exist, and we would not have been able to ensure that in its design we would protect the United Kingdom’s interests as well as supporting these very desperate and poor people who need Europe’s support.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

Can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House explain why, notwithstanding her remarks just now, the Government stubbornly refuse to put their own efforts—their laudable humanitarian aid contribution and rather less admirable resettlement offer—squarely into a European policy framework, and then add a relocation effort under the criteria that my noble and learned friend mentioned? Surely, EU asylum policy is part of the European security agenda, on which the Prime Minister has rightly declared an intention to lead. Why cannot what we are doing be squarely in the European framework?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Because, my Lords, we work in Britain’s overall best interests, and we are seeking to assist Europe in making sure that, in the package as a whole, what Europe does in protecting its borders and supporting people is very much in line with what we believe is the right thing to do, while retaining control of how we support these refugees. That will in future be very much in line with what Europe is doing. It is Europe that is following our lead—but what we are able to do is to retain control ultimately of the number of people who come into this country. That is what the British people want us to do—to be able to influence but to retain control. That is why, to coin a phrase, it is the best of both worlds.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

Could the Minister say whether she thinks that the Turkey deal is realistic? After the assessment of immigration status has been approved—either genuine refugee status or none—those who have been declined could amount in Europe to hundreds of thousands. They will have to return to Turkey, but suppose they just sit there and refuse to go to Turkey with their wives, their children and their sick parents. Will there be forcible repatriation? Whenever we have had to do this in Britain, there has been only a handful of cases a year and they are always very difficult. I should have thought that with hundreds of thousands it is well-nigh impossible.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am sorry that my noble friend is quite pessimistic about the chances of this scheme working. It clearly requires a lot of expert planning to make sure it works properly. It will be regularly reviewed to ensure that it works. One of the main planks of this plan is for Turkey to protect its borders and ensure that people are not leaving there in the first place. The plan is not just about dealing with people once they get to Greece. It is about limiting the number who leave Turkey in the first place and about being very proactive in the water in terms of turning boats back before they have left Turkey’s shores. This is a comprehensive plan, and it has to be executed in a very comprehensive way.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, as the weather improves, the longer sea routes from Libya to Lampedusa, Sicily or Malta will increasingly be used. There may be a new Government, albeit a feeble Government, in Libya, but ISIS controls a substantial part of the coast, including the port of Sirte. How can we possibly hope for progress without the military defeat of ISIS, which plans to send jihadists from Libya to the European mainland? Can there be any serious progress without the military defeat of ISIS in Libya? What plans, if any, have we to do that?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is right to highlight that the root cause of all this is ISIS, or Daesh, and the appalling atrocities that it is performing in that part of the world. There is now a new Prime Minister in place in Libya and a new unity Government have just been established. The Foreign Secretary has already been in touch with the new Prime Minister. We stand ready to assist in Libya, but we will not take any action there without it being in response to a request. Clearly, if there was any extension of any activity in that part of world, the Prime Minister would want to return to the House of Commons. In the mean time, we have increased our presence as part of the NATO regime off the coast of Libya to try to do more to tackle smuggling before people leave the Libyan coast.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I confess my heart sank slightly when the first sentence of the Statement said that this was a migration crisis affecting “continental Europe”. However, since the rest of the Statement said that it is quite clearly a crisis that affects the whole of Europe, I think we can pass that over in silence.

The Government have until now attached and still attach huge importance to taking Syrian refugees only from countries such as Jordan and Lebanon with the co-operation of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. I think it is a bit excessive that they refuse even to contemplate those who reach Europe. Does the Statement mean that from now on they will accept refugees in Turkey who are registered as being genuine refugees? Will our 20,000—I am not seeking to raise the issue of numbers—include refugees taken from camps in Turkey and thus, of course, be helpful to the commitments that the European Union has entered into to help Turkey handle the increased number of refugees it will get when many are returned from Greece?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Yes, my Lords, we will of course take refugees from Turkey. Some of the refugees we have already received as a consequence of the Syrian crisis will be based in Turkey because they will be in some of the camps which are outside Syria on the border with Turkey. I can certainly reassure the noble Lord on that.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon (LD)]

My Lords, following the events of the weekend, I wonder whether the Leader of the House can imagine with what delicious schadenfreude we on these Benches recall Mr Osborne’s comment in the Budget that he had abolished the Liberal Democrats. I bet he is missing us now for we could be relied on in government whereas it is perfectly clear that his shambles of a party cannot.

Turning to refugees, the Government’s case for refusing to assist a single refugee currently fleeing from the Syrian battlefield has been that to do so would encourage more to come. Since by the Government’s own admission the Turkish scheme overcomes that problem, will we play any part in it and, if not, what dishonourable fig leaf of an excuse will they now raise in order not to assist a single refugee coming now from the Syrian battlefield?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I completely reject the way the noble Lord has described what we have done and what we are committed to do. We are supporting refugees from Syria in two very clear ways: first, by providing financial support and aid to those who are based in these camps at a rate unmatched by any country in Europe and second only to the United States. Our resettlement programme, which we put in place last year, has already started to deliver refuge to people who were in camps near Syria to a greater degree than that of those countries in Europe which were party to the relocation scheme. It is working.

If children who have fled from Syria and are in mainland Europe and have claimed asylum have family ties to the United Kingdom, our policy is to assist them in being reunited with their family, but they have to claim asylum in the country they are in. That is the policy, but it also reflects how much support we want to give.

As to the noble Lord’s comments on the Liberal Democrats, the Budget did a huge amount to ensure that we are supporting future generations of this country. We have increased funding for our schools, we have taken yet more low-paid people out of tax, we have frozen fuel duty to help hard-working people and we are helping the poorest to save. We have done all that on our own in government, and we will continue to do that and to deliver our long-term economic plan because that is what people voted for, that is what they want from us and that is what will secure their future and that of everybody in this country.

[Lord Mawhinney (Con)]

My Lords, I suspect I am not the only one in your Lordships’ House who is grateful to the Prime Minister for having reminded us of the decisions of the two previous EU Council meetings and the number of people who were going to be helped as a result of those decisions and for telling us of the paltry number of people who actually have been helped. Given that stark contrast, does my noble friend really believe that the decisions taken this time are in practice going to turn out to be effective, as the other two sets of decisions have apparently not been?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I believe they will be. The proof will be once this is fully implemented. The reason why I believe it will be effective is because this new European programme reflects the programme that we have already adopted, which is seeing better results than that which has been already used in Europe.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I would refute what the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has said about the Budget. All independent commentators say that it will exacerbate intergenerational strife.

In relation to the Statement, I do not think the noble Baroness has answered the question from my noble friend Lady Smith on the number of people who have already been welcomed to this country. I personally welcome the agreement with Turkey, but I am concerned that little or no heed seems to have been given to the situation in Turkey itself in relation to human rights, good governance, free media and the rule of law. Of course I deeply regret the violence that is now taking place in Turkey, but the Turkish Government must always pay heed to their obligations under international law, not just to the refugees, who are hugely important, but also to their own citizens.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness is right. That is why progress will not be made on the part of the deal that includes Turkey’s accession to the EU until Turkey has complied with all the demands laid out for it to meet, and they have been in place for a very long time now. All Europe—including the UK, which has long been a supporter of Turkey’s accession to the EU—recognises that Turkey has a huge amount to do before it would qualify for that membership. On the concerns that the noble Baroness raises about Turkey more generally at this time, yes, there are issues that have been raised, such as freedom of speech or the arresting of journalists, and we have heard about some of them and debated them in this Chamber. Those are all of great concern, but at the same time that does not detract from the generosity that Turkey has shown to the people of Syria. We need Turkey to continue providing that refuge to people. Yes, we need to continue to apply pressure on the matters that concern us regarding human rights, but we must not do so in way that somehow undermines the very positive work that Turkey is doing in support of very desperate people.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, to follow up on the previous question, I read in the press cuttings this morning that a proposal has been brought forward by the Turkish Government that politicians and journalists could also be prosecuted for abetting terrorism if they say anything that even mildly suggests there might be two sides to the story. I speak as a long-standing friend of Turkey, but urge the Government not to lose sight of the increasing authoritarianism that I detect in that country. It is in our interests to firmly remind our friends in Turkey that the properly applied rule of law is an absolute precondition not only for coming into the EU, which is self-evident, but for being a part of the international polity of nations.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to highlight these issues. As he will understand, it is not inconsistent for this Government both to raise concerns about any kind of abuse or human rights issues that exist in Turkey and at the same time to work with that country in order for it to provide the support that we think is essential to the people fleeing Syria.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is an important legal snag that has been overlooked? European legislation requires that those now being dealt with in Greece should have a right of appeal. That is in the reception directive. Will the Government therefore take steps to get that directive amended?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord raises a point of detail that I am sure is being properly addressed in the normal processes. If I have anything I can add to that, I will of course write to him.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Will the noble Baroness explain how the agreement will effectively break the smugglers’ business model, when it appears that it will do little to reduce the underlying demand for those smugglers? Would it not be more effective, and more in line with human rights principles, to introduce safe and legal routes, as mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, including the expansion of family reunion, which we will be debating shortly? Would such an approach not do more to make the smugglers redundant?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

This scheme is all about making those smugglers redundant. We do not want people to think that the only way for them to leave the camps and find refuge in Europe is to get into a boat and pay money to criminal gangs and put their own lives at risk. We want to ensure that in the neighbouring countries, whether Jordan or Turkey, those camps provide a suitable way of life, albeit not at all what anyone would actually want, temporarily for them until they can go back to their own countries. Ultimately we want to see a thriving Syria. We want Syria to be back up and running in the way that it was before this terrible war and outbreak of terrible atrocities took place. If we encourage everyone to come to Europe, that is not going to work.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will know that Turkey does not apply the Geneva convention to non-EU citizens. Do the full rules of the Geneva convention apply to the scheme that has just been agreed and, if not, which protections are not given to those people who are sent back?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I will have to write to the noble Lord about that.

Adult Education: Part-time Attendance

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sharples (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of my noble friend Lady Sharples, then I am sure we will go next to the Labour Benches.

[Baroness Sharples]

Can my noble friend say how many adults learn English on these courses?

Women: Representation

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

As one of those top women, I thought I might as well stand up. It is the turn of the Cross Benches.

[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the speech made by the Chief of the General Staff today to mark International Women’s Day, in which he recommended to Ministers that all appointments in the Army, including close-combat roles, should be open to women? I wonder what Her Majesty’s Government’s response to that recommendation by the Chief of the General Staff will be.

Aircraft: Laser Pointers

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I think that my noble friend Lord Brabazon was first on his feet.

[Lord Brabazon of Tara]

My Lords, is not the problem that the lasers to which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred are in fact not for sale legally in this country? They are powerful, but there is nothing wrong with the not-powerful ones. The problem is that they are bought on the internet. Should we not look at a way of making it illegal to buy them?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think that my noble friend Lord Naseby has given way to my noble friend, who was the chair of the Select Committee that looked into this matter.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

Thank you. The real problem is that although the Government reacted very positively when the Select Committee made its report on drones and an action plan was created, nothing has happened. While nothing is happening here, we may be sure that everything is happening in those other countries that are manufacturing drones. Will the Minister try to get some oomph into this, otherwise we really will be in a sad situation?

Student Loans: Muslim Students

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, on this occasion I think it is the turn of the Lib Dems.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, could I follow up the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Elton, about the passivity of the Government on this issue? The Minister has said on several occasions that they were looking for a suitable vehicle, as if they were waiting for a bus to come round the corner. Can I underline the views that I think the whole House has on this issue? It would be a minor legislative tool but, in terms of the life chances of very many Muslim students, this change could make all the difference to whether they get a proper education or not.

Business of the House

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 8 March to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Motion agreed.

Universities: Freedom of Speech

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

In order for me to assist the House, the Member seeking to ask a question has to try to get in. However, I think that the House wants to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve]

Does the Minister have any views about the most effective means by which university vice-chancellors and councils can alter the climate in which some people confuse the passion of their own disagreement with a licence to silence?

European Council

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the agreement reached in Brussels last week, but first let me say a word about the migration crisis which was also discussed at the European Council. We agreed that we needed to press ahead with strengthening the EU’s external borders to ensure that non-refugees are returned promptly and to back the new mission to disrupt the criminal gangs working between Greece and Turkey who are putting so many people’s lives at risk. I made clear that Britain will continue to contribute, and will step up our contribution, in all these areas.

Turning to Britain’s place in Europe, I have spent the last nine months setting out the four areas where we need reform and meeting all 27 other EU Heads of State and government to reach an agreement that delivers concrete reforms in all four areas. Let me take each in turn.

First, British jobs and British business depend on being able to trade with Europe on a level playing field, so we wanted new protections for our economy to safeguard the pound, to promote our industries—including our financial services industries—to protect British taxpayers from the costs of problems in the eurozone and to ensure that we have a full say over the rules of the single market while remaining outside the eurozone. We got all those things. We have not just permanently protected the pound and our right to keep it but have ensured that we cannot be discriminated against.

Responsibility for supervising the financial stability of the UK will always remain in the hands of the Bank of England. We have ensured that British taxpayers will never be made to bail out countries in the eurozone. We have made sure that the eurozone cannot act as a bloc to undermine the integrity of the free trade single market, and we have guaranteed that British business will never face any discrimination for being outside the eurozone. For example, our financial services firms—our number one services export employing over 1 million people—can never be forced to relocate inside the eurozone if they want to undertake complex trades in euros just because they are based in the UK.

These protections are not just set out in a legally binding agreement; all 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy that is inside the EU but outside the eurozone. We also agreed a new mechanism to enable non-eurozone countries to raise issues of concern, and we won the battle to ensure that this could be triggered by one country alone. Of course, none of these protections would be available if we were to leave the EU.

Secondly, we wanted commitments to make Europe more competitive, creating jobs and making British families more financially secure, and again we got them. Europe will complete the single market in key areas that will really help Britain: in services, making it easier for thousands of UK service-based companies like IT firms to trade in Europe; in capital, so that UK start-ups can access more sources of finance for their businesses, and in energy, allowing new suppliers into our energy market, meaning lower energy bills for families across the country.

We have secured commitments to complete trade and investment agreements with the fastest-growing and most dynamic economies around the world, including the USA, Japan and China, as well as our Commonwealth allies, India, New Zealand and Australia. These deals could add billions of pounds and thousands of jobs to our economy every year, and, of course, they build on the deals we already have with 53 countries around the world through which Britain has benefited from the negotiating muscle that comes from being part of the world’s largest trading bloc.

Country after country have said to me that of course they could sign trade deals with Britain, but they have also said that their priority would be trade deals with the EU. By their nature, these EU deals would be bigger and better, and a deal with Britain would not even be possible until we had settled our position outside the EU. So for those Members who care about signing new trade deals outside the EU, we would be looking at years and years of delay.

Last but by no means least on competitiveness, one of the biggest frustrations for British business is the red tape and bureaucracy, so we agreed that there will now be targets to cut the total burden of EU regulation on business. This builds on the progress we have already made, with the Commission already cutting the number of new initiatives by 80%, and it means that the cost of EU red tape will be going down, not up. Of course, if we were to leave the EU but ultimately achieve a deal with full access to the single market, like Norway, we would still be subject to all the EU’s regulations when selling into Europe, but with no say over the rules. As the former Europe spokesman for the Norwegian Conservative Party said:

‘If you want to run Europe, you must be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join Norway in the European Economic Area’.

Thirdly, we wanted to reduce the very high level of migration from within the EU by preventing the abuse of free movement and preventing our welfare system acting as a magnet for people to come to our country. After the hard work of the Home Secretary we have secured new powers against criminals from other countries, including powers to stop them coming here in the first place and powers to deport them if they are already here. We agreed longer re-entry bans for fraudsters and people who collude in sham marriages and an end to the frankly ridiculous situation where EU nationals can avoid British immigration rules when bringing their families from outside the EU.

This agreement broke new ground, with the European Council agreeing to reverse decisions from the European Court of Justice. We have also secured a breakthrough agreement for Britain to reduce the unnatural draw that our benefits system exerts across Europe. We have already made sure that EU migrants cannot claim the new unemployment benefit, universal credit, while looking for work. Those coming from the EU who have not found work within six months can now be required to leave. At this Council we agreed that EU migrants working in Britain can be prevented from sending child benefit home at UK rates. This will apply first to new claimants and then to existing claimants from the start of 2020. We also established a new emergency brake so that EU migrants will have to wait four years until they have full access to our benefits.

People said it was impossible to achieve real change in this area and that a four-year restriction on benefits was completely out of the question, yet that is what we have done. Once activated, the emergency brake will be in place for seven years. So if it begins next year, it will still be operating in 2024 and there will be people who will not be getting full benefits until 2028. All along we have said that people should not be able to come here and get access to our benefits system straightaway—no more something for nothing—and that is what we have achieved.

I am sure that the discussion about welfare and immigration will be intense, but let me just make this point. No country outside the EU has agreed full access to the single market without accepting paying in to the EU and accepting free movement. In addition, our new safeguards lapse if we vote to leave the EU, so we might end up with free movement but without these new protections.

The fourth area where we wanted to make significant changes was to protect our country from further European political integration and to increase powers for our national Parliament. Ever since we joined, Europe has been on the path to something called ever-closer union. It means a political union. We have never liked it, we never wanted it, and now Britain will be permanently and legally excluded from it. The text says that the treaties will be changed to make clear that, and I quote,

‘the Treaty references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom’.

So, as a result of this negotiation, Britain can never be part of a European superstate.

The Council also agreed that ever-closer union, which has been referred to in previous judgments from the European Court of Justice, does not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the treaties or of EU secondary legislation. People used to talk about a multi-speed Europe. Now we have a clear agreement that not only are different countries able to travel at different speeds but they are ultimately able to head to different destinations too. I would argue that that is a fundamental change in the way this organisation works.

We have also strengthened the role of this House and all national Parliaments. We have already passed a referendum Act to make sure that no powers can be handed to Brussels without the explicit consent of the British people in a referendum. Now, if Brussels comes up with legislation we do not want, we can get together with other parliaments and block it with a red card. We have a new mechanism finally to enforce the principle that, as far as possible, powers should sit here in Westminster, not in Brussels. So every year the EU now has to go through the powers it exercises and work out which are no longer needed and should be returned to nation states.

In recent years we have also seen attempts to bypass our opt-out on justice and home affairs by bringing forward legislation under a different label—for example, attempts to interfere with the way the UK authorities handle fraud were made under the guise of EU budget legislation. The agreements at last week’s Council ensure that this can never happen again.

The reforms we have secured will be legally binding in international law and will be deposited as a treaty at the UN. They cannot be unpicked without the agreement of Britain and every other EU country. As I have said, all 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy outside the eurozone, and our permanent exclusion from ever-closer union.

Our special status means that Britain can have the best of both worlds. We will be in the parts of Europe that work for us, influencing the decisions that affect us, in the driving seat of the world’s biggest single market and with the ability to take action to keep our people safe, but we will be out of the parts of Europe that do not work for us: out of the euro, out of the eurozone bailouts, out of the passport-free, no-borders Schengen area, and permanently and legally protected from ever being part of an ever-closer union.

Of course, there is still more to do. I am the first to say that there are still many ways in which this organisation needs to improve, and the task of reforming Europe does not end with last week’s agreement. But with the special status this settlement gives us, I believe the time has come to fulfil another vital commitment this Government made, and that is to hold a referendum. So, I am today commencing the process set out under our referendum Act to propose that the British people decide our future in Europe through an in/out referendum on Thursday 23 June. The Foreign Secretary has laid in both Houses a report setting out the new settlement that the Government have negotiated. This fulfils the duty to publish information set out in Section 6 of the European Union Referendum Act 2015. As the Cabinet agreed on Saturday, the Government’s position will be to recommend that Britain remains in this reformed European Union.

This is a vital decision for the future of our country. We should also be clear that it is a final decision. An idea has been put forward that if the country votes to leave we could have a second renegotiation and perhaps another referendum. I will not dwell on the irony that some people who want to vote to leave apparently want to use a leave vote to remain. But such an approach also ignores more profound points about democracy, diplomacy and legality. This is a straight democratic decision—staying in or leaving—and no Government can ignore that. Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper. For a Prime Minister to ignore the express will of the British people to leave the EU would not just be wrong, it would be undemocratic. On the diplomacy, the idea that other European countries would be ready to start a second negotiation is for the birds. Many are under pressure for what they have already agreed. Then there is the legality—I want to spell out this point carefully for the House because it is important. If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, and that is to trigger Article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit. The British people would rightly expect that that should start straightaway.

Let me be absolutely clear how this works: it triggers a two-year time period to negotiate the arrangements for exit. At the end of this period if no agreement is in place, then exit is automatic unless every one of the 27 other EU member states agrees to a delay. We should be clear that this process is not an invitation to rejoin; it is a process for leaving. Sadly, I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings, but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order to renew their marriage vows.

I want to explain what would happen if that deal to leave was not done within two years. Our current access to the single market would cease immediately after two years were up, and our current trade agreements with 53 countries around the world would lapse. This cannot be described as anything other than risk, uncertainty and a leap in the dark that could hurt working people in our country for years to come. This is not some theoretical question; this is a real decision about people’s lives. When it comes to people’s jobs, it is simply not enough to say that it will be all right on the night and we will work it out. In the weeks to come we need properly to face up to the economic consequences of a choice to leave.

I believe Britain will be stronger, safer and better off by remaining in a reformed European Union: stronger because we can play a leading role in one of the world’s largest organisations from within, helping to make the big decisions on trade and security that determine our future; safer because we can work with our European partners to fight cross-border crime and terrorism; and better off because British businesses will have full access to the free-trade single market, bringing jobs, investment and lower prices.

There will be much debate about sovereignty—and rightly so. To me what matters most is the power to get things done for our people, for our country, and for our future. Leaving the EU may briefly make us feel more sovereign, but would it actually give us more power, more influence and a greater ability to get things done? No. If we leave the EU, will we have the power to stop our businesses being discriminated against? No. Will we have the power to insist that European countries share with us their border information so we know what terrorists and criminals are doing in Europe? No, we will not. Will we have more influence over the decisions that affect the prosperity and security of British families? No, we will not. We are a great country and whatever choice we make we will still be great, but I believe the choice is between being an even greater Britain inside a reformed EU and a great leap into the unknown. The challenges facing the West today are genuinely threatening: Putin’s aggression in the east; Islamist extremism to the south. In my view this is no time to divide the West. When faced with challenges to our way of life, our values and our freedoms, this is a time for strength in numbers.

I end by saying this: I am not standing for re-election; I have no other agenda than what is best for our country; I am standing here today telling you what I think. My responsibility as Prime Minister is to speak plainly about what I believe is right for our country, and that is what I will do every day for the next four months. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement. At the outset, I declare my registered interest as a member of the board of Britain Stronger in Europe. I say gently to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, that twice in her remarks she talked about four months being a long time. A number of us in your Lordships’ House who are veterans of three and a half years on the Scottish referendum would think four months a relative relief.

Those of us on these Benches very much welcome the Prime Minister’s successful renegotiations in Europe last week. The hard work that he put in, not only last week but in the weeks leading up to it, was very evident and it is fair to say that what he came away with exceeded many people’s initial expectations. We also welcome the willingness of other EU member states to work with the United Kingdom to reach this compromise. That demonstrates the degree of good will towards the United Kingdom from other EU Governments, and their commitment to maintaining British membership. I was delighted yesterday to hear the Prime Minister setting out, at long last, the strategic case for the United Kingdom continuing its membership of the European Union. It was very welcome, too, that the Prime Minister took the opportunity in his Statement to knock on the head the fanciful idea that, in the event of an out vote, there could be a second renegotiation and a second referendum.

The referendum vote in June will be of the utmost significance. It will settle not only Britain’s relations with Europe, but our place in the world. We very much believe that the United Kingdom will derive strength from being seen as a team player and engaged in international affairs. It is an illusion of sovereignty to suggest that, if we come out, we will somehow get sovereignty back. Liberal Democrats are firmly committed to the United Kingdom’s place in the European Union. We are united in our belief that the United Kingdom is better when it is united with our colleagues in Europe. In an uncertain world of challenges and threats, I also believe that Europe is better and stronger for having the United Kingdom in it as a member state.

We have spoken from these Benches on a number of occasions about how we will use the campaign to speak about the positive case for Britain remaining within the EU. In the EU, Britain can thrive. Together, we will be a stronger and more prosperous nation, securing jobs and creating opportunity for our children and grandchildren. We have created together the world’s largest free trade area, we have delivered peace, and we have given the British people the opportunity to live, work and travel freely. History shows that Britain is better when it is united with our European partners. Together, we are stronger in the fight against the global problems that do not stop at borders. We can combat international crime, fight climate change, and together provide hope and opportunity for the future.

It is worth reflecting for a moment on the creation of the European Union and its lasting legacy. After decades of brutal conflict on the continent, European nations came together in co-operation. To this day, neighbours and allies support each other in what remains the world’s most successful project in peace. We remain stronger together in continuing the fight against terrorists who despise our liberal and modern way of life. Will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House take the opportunity to repudiate the alarmist comments made by her colleague, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, when he said that remaining in the EU exposes Britain to a Paris-style terrorist attack? Does she agree that it is only by working in co-operation with our international friends and neighbours that we can combat such threats to our security?

Britain is already stronger and better off trading and working with Europe. We are part of the world’s largest single market, allowing British businesses to grow and prosper. Our people have more opportunities to work, travel and learn than ever before. Staying in the EU gives our children and grandchildren greater prospects, and the best chance to succeed. Does the noble Baroness share my concerns, therefore, at the dramatic fall in sterling today—referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—which we believe was driven in great part by fear of Brexit? Does she agree that the threat of leaving the EU is already costing British businesses and that it would be much worse for British exporters if we were to withdraw from the world’s biggest single market? Can the noble Baroness indicate when we will get the Government’s report on EU membership under Section 7 of the European Referendum Act that Parliament passed towards the end of last year?

This country’s place in the world depends on our getting on well with our neighbours, who share our values and interests. Does the noble Baroness the Leader of the House agree that this referendum is about the kind of country we want to leave to our children and grandchildren, and about how we think of ourselves as a country? Does she agree that issues such as climate change and the natural environment are better tackled when we come together to think about the world we want to leave to future generations?

There has been speculation about a statement or an initiative on sovereignty, which was lacking from the Prime Minister’s Statement today. Before going down that particular road—it may just have been a ruse to try to bring Boris on board—will the noble Baroness reflect that in fact further piecemeal constitutional meddling of that kind may end up with consequences more damaging than the ones they seek to resolve? Will she give the House an indication of the Government’s thinking on that?

Finally, will the noble Baroness confirm that this is, indeed, a once-in-a-generation decision and that there is only one opportunity to show that the United Kingdom is not a country that is isolated and sidelined but one that is open, outward-facing and proud of its place in the international community, and that an out vote means taking the United Kingdom back and an in vote means taking the United Kingdom forward?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for their remarks and their support for what the Prime Minister has negotiated in Europe this weekend.

I shall start by reflecting on the significance of the events at the end of last week. On Friday my right honourable friend the Prime Minister did something that many people had predicted was not possible: he delivered a legally binding, irreversible renegotiation of our relationship with the European Union. In doing so he secured a new settlement, carving out a special status for this country that gives us the best of both worlds and means that we remain in the parts of Europe that work for us—the noble Lords have talked about some of them—around making sure that we are stronger and safer. That most definitely includes security: although we retain our responsibility to national security, we benefit from the co-operation of our partners in Europe in terms of protecting ourselves from terrorism. Through his renegotiation my right honourable friend has secured terms that mean we will be better off because of increasing competitiveness and the securing of the completion of the single market. He has also made sure that we stay out of the parts that are not in our best interests and have frustrated us for too long.

Having secured all that, we now need to get on with our other commitment to deliver to the British people the opportunity that they have long waited for to have their say on whether Britain should remain in or leave the European Union. The noble Baroness made reference to four months and the time between now and the referendum taking place. I note what the noble and learned Lord said about the length of time of the Scottish referendum campaign. I say to noble Lords that the reason why it is four months is that we are reflecting the proper processes and steps that it was agreed in the European Union Referendum Act should take place between now and the referendum happening. That process has started today: the statutory instrument confirming the date has been laid. That will be debated in both Houses and is subject to an affirmative resolution. Today we have also published the White Paper, which meets one of the requirements of the referendum Act regarding the other information that we as a Government are required to produce. That will happen, in line with the Bill, 10 weeks before the referendum takes place. So that is all in train.

With regard to other points raised by the noble Lords, I say to the noble Baroness, who talked about wanting to see the UK remaining a powerful figure within Europe as a result of the referendum, that I agree with her. We are a powerful player in Europe now and that is what we want to remain. She made the point that the European Union would continue to exist even if the United Kingdom voted to leave. She is absolutely right: if this country decided to come out, the European Union would still be there. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said when he was being interviewed yesterday, one of my Cabinet colleagues said on Saturday when we were discussing his renegotiation, “This utopia might sound fantastic but I bet that when you got there, there would still be a European Union”. It is a place that will exist because other people would be members of it even if we were not.

The noble Baroness said it would be important that between now and the referendum taking place the Government continued to govern, and that there are other matters of greater importance to the people of this country. I agree with her about that; we have important business to conduct and will continue to do so.

The noble and learned Lord made reference to the effect on the currency markets. In my view, such an effect between now and the referendum taking place would be about uncertainty: we are now in a state where there is a debate going on and there is some uncertainty about the result of that referendum. What I, the Prime Minister and the Government are arguing is that, by voting to remain in the European Union, we would provide certainty for the future of this country. If this country decides to leave the European Union, it would create a long period of uncertainty.

As to the noble and learned Lord’s question about the sovereignty of Parliament, we have already, in the last few years, protected the sovereignty of this Parliament by passing that Act in 2011, which means that never again can any Prime Minister give away powers to the European Union without coming back to this country and giving the people a say. The very fact that we are having a referendum later this year, in June, is also an act of sovereignty. It also means that the people of this country are in charge of their own destiny. I very much believe and hope that the result of the referendum will see that we remain strong and secure in our future, having the best of both worlds, which means being part of a reformed Europe, but also being in charge of our own destiny and taking advantage of the changes that the Prime Minister has been able to negotiate.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, we are now into an extended period of 40 minutes, which reflects the importance of the Statement made by my noble friend the Leader of the House. We will make the most of that time if noble Lords, with a little bit of self-discipline, restrict themselves to short questions. On top of that, we will be able to go around the House in our usual way.

[Lord Hague of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, now that the negotiations conducted by the Prime Minister can be subject to intense scrutiny and analysis, does my noble friend agree that it is very important that all possible alternative arrangements with the European Union be subject to an equivalent degree of scrutiny and analysis? Is it not the case that, as even many of us who are long-standing critics of the EU have to recognise, there would be a basic choice between leaving the single market in order to escape its requirements, freedom of movement and regulations, and staying in the single market with those same requirements and regulations? Would that not represent a loss of sovereignty rather than the recovery of sovereignty?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I do not think the House will be surprised to hear me say that I very much agree with my noble friend. He is absolutely right: anybody campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union will have to spell out what that means and what they are suggesting the people of this country would be voting for. They need to be specific about the model that is being proposed. If it is a model like Norway, they need to explain to the people of this country that there is no cost-free alternative; that is important for people to understand. There is not another way in which there is no disadvantage. It is quite possible for the United Kingdom to survive and prosper outside of the European Union, but we believe that Britain would remain stronger in the EU, and it is for others to make their case as to what “leave” means.

[Lord Kinnock (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that it is neither pessimistic nor defeatist for us to argue for the United Kingdom to remain in the European Union? It is total commitment to advancing and upholding the stability, security and well-being of our beloved country. It is practical patriotism instead of the risk-riddled leap into the unknown of leaving. Will she therefore dismiss the glib and duplicitous suggestion that voting to leave will somehow compel the European Union to amenably accommodate the economic preferences of the United Kingdom outside the EU? Being pro having cake and pro eating it is an infantile desire, not an adult reality. I hope she will agree that the choice is in or out, not “in, out, shake it all about” and then rashly hope that something helpful will turn up for a country that has abandoned all rights, influence and power by leaving the EU.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that voting to remain in the European Union is very much a patriotic decision. If we cast our vote in that way, we are recognising the power and influence we wield as our country in that European Union, and that we will have both the benefit of being in that Union and—because of what has been renegotiated—greater control of our destiny than we have been able to have up to now. The noble Lord is absolutely right about voting to leave. To vote to leave means to leave, and that will be it: it is about being either in or out.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, in my view the agreement reached by the Prime Minister is both substantive and valuable and I thank him for the efforts he made to achieve that. Can the noble Baroness perhaps cast some light on the views of the Mayor of London, who appears to think that if we vote to remain, that will be a green light for federalism? If that is so, why are all the federalist leader-writers on the continent rending their garments because of the agreement reached last week? Could he perhaps be wrong and, while we are at it, could he just understand that the motto of the European Union is not “E pluribus unum” but “United in diversity”?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think I will leave the noble Lord to get into a battle about Latin with somebody else—I hope he will forgive me, but I will not engage in that. However, I am very grateful to him for recognising that what the Prime Minister achieved in Brussels was substantive and valuable. He is quite right about the reaction in Europe to what the Prime Minister has achieved. Unfortunately, I have only recently been given some quotes so I will not try to read them out, but clearly, the other leaders in Europe have been able to explain to their people that the UK has got itself a new status in Europe, with new terms. They have also acknowledged that, with the exception of the specific carve-out for the United Kingdom on ever closer union, the changes the Prime Minister has negotiated are to the benefit of Europe as a whole—this is not just about a benefit for the UK—and have acknowledged just how hard the Prime Minister pressed them during these negotiations. The noble Baroness referred to the scenes in Europe. I argue that they demonstrated just how difficult it was for the Prime Minister to get this better deal for the UK. On that basis, we can have every confidence in it.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted that the Prime Minister has shifted to making the big, positive, patriotic case for our membership of the European Union; it is perhaps a pity that he has not been making that case over the last decade. Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness, with a slight note of concern, how the Government will avoid the adverse consequences of what I might call the “be careful what you wish for” aspects. One is the special status she just talked about, which is in some respects a semi-detached status. How will we make sure that the UK truly is in the lead on EU policy areas such as security and climate change, where we want to be fully engaged? Secondly, although the red card is unlikely ever to be used, there is a danger that it could be used by national parliaments ganging up against the liberalisation of services in the single market in a protectionist way that would not be in our favour. Lastly, on the sovereignty angle—my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace referred to a constitutional court—if the UK Supreme Court becomes a constitutional court that can override Parliament, how will that increase British parliamentary sovereignty domestically?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness covered a lot of ground and she will forgive me for not dealing with all those points, in order to allow other noble Lords to get in. She suggested that the Prime Minister is only now making the positive case for Britain’s membership of the European Union; I disagree. It is also very important for us to acknowledge that there has been a great deal of frustration among the people of this country about the way Europe has operated for a long time. They have been frustrated at not getting the opportunity to have a referendum. The Prime Minister is being so positive about what he is putting forward to the United Kingdom because he has addressed people’s concerns through his renegotiation and is giving them the opportunity finally to have their say. That is an essential and important part of the message that we need to deliver.

On the noble Baroness’s other points, what is important about ever-closer union and what the Prime Minister was seeking to address in his renegotiation is that we now have the power—which we never had before—not to be involved in things we do not think are in Britain’s interests.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that, however one regards the details of the deal, there can be no doubt that our right honourable friend the Prime Minister has opened up huge new opportunities for the reform of Europe as a whole? As we have reached this point, will she encourage her colleagues in government from now on to put maximum brainpower, energy and imagination into working with the other peoples of Europe to achieve the fundamental reforms the European Union desperately needs in the face of its present crises, and for which most of the people of Europe are yearning?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend makes an important point which the Prime Minister, I and others in government are very conscious of. He is quite right, and as I think I said to him when I repeated the previous Statement, this is not the end but the start of a process of reform. We want Europe to work in the best interests of all its peoples. It started reforming. It started changing. It started reducing some of the regulation and burdens that we know are not in people’s interests, but more needs to be done and we will very much support that.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that, important as the economic arguments are—and I am sure they will take pride of place in the coming months—we must not lose sight of the political and security arguments? Europe is facing challenges in the east from President Putin and in the Mediterranean area and Syria, and there are security problems between the nation states of Europe trying to unite to face those threats, so can she make sure that those arguments are heard? They are profoundly important to the stability of this country and of Europe.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I very much agree with the noble Lord. One of the advantages of being in Europe—and for us to make clear to the people of this country—is that we have led the way in some of the action that has been taken in the last few years to make sure that we are more secure, whether it is issuing sanctions against Putin or increasing the co-operation between member states on sharing information to defeat terrorism. That is a very good and powerful reason for us to remain in the European Union and an argument that we must continue to make.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the present chairman of Vote Leave. Is it not clear that the trivial and inconsequential changes that the Prime Minister has secured—subject to legal challenge, of course—fall far, far short of the fundamental, far-reaching reform which three years ago in his Bloomberg speech he said was necessary? Is it not clear that the referendum on 23 June will be about not whether we wish to remain in a reformed European Union but whether we wish to remain in an unreformed European Union, which, alas, it has proved itself to be? However, there is one thing that I welcome. In his Statement the Prime Minister has admitted—I think for the first time but, if not, it is the first time that I can recall—that the purpose of the European Union is to create full-blooded political union. That is clear in the Statement. However, he says that we shall not be part of it. Maybe we will not be but we will still be shackled to it and will have a quasi-colonial status—that is the closest parallel that I can think of. Is it not the case that the referendum on 23 June will be about whether we wish to be a self-governing, independent democracy?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As my noble friend knows, it always pains me to have to disagree with him, but I disagree in particular with his description of what the Prime Minister secured through his renegotiation in Europe. To describe it as trivial and inconsequential is just not accurate. My noble friend is right in that the Prime Minister acknowledges that the European Union is about political union, but he has secured that we are not a part of that—it is in a legally binding document. It is very clear that we are carved out of it. Furthermore—this point has not had much of an airing—not only do we have a United Kingdom carve-out but the document says:

“The references in the Treaties and their preambles to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe do not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the Treaties or of EU secondary legislation”.

That is an instruction to the European Court of Justice and it will apply not just to us but to everybody else who is a member of the European Union and does not want to be part of a political union.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a board member of Britain Stronger In Europe. Does the noble Baroness agree that there is an overwhelming economic case for us to remain as a member of the European Union? Nowhere is that more the case than in Wales. Over recent years we have seen international companies from Japan, the United States and elsewhere locating there to sell to the European Union. Leaving the Union would destabilise that relationship and undermine our economy.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Yes, I agree with the noble Lord. We have to acknowledge the foreign investment that comes into this country and into Wales, a lot of which is from European Union countries. We benefit tremendously from our trade as part of that single market, and we would put that very severely at risk if we were to leave.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My noble friend has just talked about a legally binding document protecting our interests. How do the Government then deal with the question of the acquis communautaire and the fact that the so-called watertight legislative protection of our rights in the past has never survived challenges in the court? These matters have to be addressed if some credibility is to be given to this so-called legally binding document.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

In the interests of time and the fact that many people want to get in, I shall say to my noble friend Lord Spicer what I said to my noble friend Lord Lawson. The Prime Minister has secured, for the first time ever, a return of powers to a nation state. That has never happened before. He has secured that and we can now take advantage of it—something that we have never been able to do before.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, last week at the Munich security conference the United States Secretary of State, John Kerry, expressed the hope of having a strong United Kingdom within a strong European Union. In the opinion of the noble Baroness, why should the United States attach such significance to our continuing membership of the EU?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It does so because it sees how influential we are in the European Union. It sees that we not only have an impact on the very important international and global issues of the day but bring a lot to what happens in the rest of the European Union. That is why the US wants us to stay.

[Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)]

I speak as a former European Commissioner. It is absolutely essential that we remain in the European Union, expressing our point of view and being able to judge whether something that has been put forward is in our interests. We can say what we like there. To say that we have no influence—an argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson—is absurd. I speak from experience. You have to go through all the institutions of the European Union, not only the Commission, and eventually you end up with a compromise. That is not a dirty word. In my view, it is absolutely essential that 28 countries should perform like that and come to a reasonable decision. To experiment in the way put forward by those who oppose remaining in the EU would be absolutely absurd. In my view, membership of the Union is essential and we should have no doubt about that. We do have a voice.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is important not only that we make the strong case for membership of the European Union that the noble Lord has outlined, but that we stress that we are confident in making that case because of the reforms that the Prime Minister has been able to secure. We must not underestimate people’s frustration with the European Union, and we were not happy with the status quo.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, first, perhaps I may just build on what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, said. Should not the Prime Minister make more of the fact that it means a lot to countries dealing with the United Kingdom that we are part of the European Union? Countries such as India see the UK as a gateway to Europe and I do not think that enough is made of that. Secondly, perhaps I may build on what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said. The Prime Minister talks about the best of both worlds. You can be a Eurosceptic, as I think I am—I hate the way that the European Parliament works and the fact that it has to go to Strasbourg every month, and I hate the gravy train, the waste of money and the fact that nobody I am aware of knows who their MEP is—and still believe that it is the lesser of two evils, rather than the best of both worlds. Does the Minister agree that it is probably better to stay in the European Union because it is the best of both worlds and the lesser of two evils?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Or you might say, “Better the devil you know”. Basically, I agree with the noble Lord: you do not have to be a raging Euro-enthusiast and to have been so for donkey’s years to support staying in the European Union. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, this is patriotic. We believe very much in the power and sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and we believe that by being in Europe we can have, as the Prime Minister described it, the best of both worlds. As to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, about making more of the way in which we are a gateway to the rest of Europe, I agree with him, and the Prime Minister is already making that case. We have four months to go and he will keep making that case. I hope that the noble Lord and others will help us in that task.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Does the Minister recall an interview given some time ago by Jacques Delors in the German newspaper Handelsblatt in which he said this:

“If the British cannot support the trend towards more integration in Europe, we can nevertheless remain friends, but on a different basis. I could imagine a form such as a European economic area or a free-trade agreement”?

Does not that show, without prejudging it, that there is an alternative available, or was Delors just completely wrong?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to say that there is an alternative—of course there is an alternative. That is why there are two choices for the British people: to leave or to remain. The alternative—and it may be something like the Norway model—is not inconceivable, but it would not be without cost and is not something that we should walk blindly into without recognising that it brings with it its own disadvantages. We have to be clear what the alternative is. That is what the next few weeks and months will have to be about in this debate: if there is an alternative, what is it?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, can I follow up on the particular point that has just been raised and the excellent point that was raised by my noble friend Lord Hain? Since the Minister and I are on exactly the same side—enthusiastically, and for the first time ever, I think—can I ask her a favour? Will she go back to the Cabinet and say, “Let us find some way of requiring these people who are against the present arrangement to put forward their alternatives so that we can examine them in detail”? They need to be required to do that so we can see clearly what the alternative is. If the Cabinet can come up with some kind of arrangement for that, I will give it and the Minister three cheers.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is for those who want to campaign to leave to come up with their arguments and the case for that. It is not for me, on the opposite side of the argument, to try to find a mechanism for them to do so; that is their responsibility. We will go through the process of formally designating the leave campaign and, as part of that process, I imagine that the respective group that is successful will be the one that the Electoral Commission feels has covered all the requirements set out for it.

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, I am sure the Leader of the House will agree with me that the most important thing in the next four months will be to put the arguments—all the arguments—as fairly as possible before the British people. All the Front Benches in this House are for staying in and all the Front Benches in the House of Commons are for staying in. This afternoon, the Prime Minister confirmed that he is going to use the whole power of the Civil Service to campaign to stay in. Does the Leader of the House think that that is entirely fair and right, and should it be of some concern to our House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the last point that my noble friend makes, the Government have adopted a position and are not neutral on this. We are arguing to remain in a reformed European Union because we believe that that is in the best interests of the people of this country. But, ultimately, it is for them to decide. Like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, my noble friend is right to say that the people who would advance leaving have to make their case and be clear in their arguments. To be honest, the inclusion in the campaigns of some very significant figures—potentially from this House and from the other place; I do not know how everybody is going to vote—means that there will be a serious debate over the next few weeks. I think that that is a good thing.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I wonder whether we might hear from the noble Lord, Lord Low.

[Lord Low of Dalston (CB)]

My Lords, it would be entirely appropriate for the Government to make the case which they support for remaining in the European Union with all the strength at their command. The case for remaining within the European Union does not stand or fall by the details of the deal that the Prime Minister negotiated in Brussels at the weekend. Nevertheless, it is very clear from the Prime Minister’s Statement, which the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has repeated for us, that the deal tends much more to the substantial and significant, as was depicted by my noble friend Lord Hannay, rather than the trivial and inconsequential, as portrayed by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson. However, it is probably fair to say that the balance of the media comment and their portrayal of the deal has tended towards the trivial and inconsequential. Given that, will the Minister provide an assurance that the Government will spare no effort to get across to the British people the substantial and significant progress that the Prime Minister has made in persuading the European Union to accommodate the British position and that it does not remain within the Westminster bubble, as we have heard it described this afternoon?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly think that the Government have a responsibility to be clear about what they are advancing and to communicate that directly to the people. But I also think that the media play an important part in our democratic process. Noble Lords have been arguing about other people making their case, and it is important as well that, through the media, people get to hear the arguments for and against. I would never stand at this Dispatch Box and criticise the work of the UK media.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will be well aware that there is no doubt whatever that the people of our nation are safer in terms of terrorism and serious organised crime because we are part of the EU. We lead Europol and have the European arrest warrant and all sorts of things. At the grand strategic level of defence, there is no doubt that NATO is most important to us. However, does the noble Baroness agree that Europe is very important to our nation? We have twice saved its bacon in the last 100 years and there is no doubt that, at the moment, there are huge threats. If we left the EU, I think there would be a certain flakiness within it. Does the noble Baroness agree? This is a very bad moment for that to happen. Europe needs us and, if it becomes flaky, the risks from people like Putin and the southern flank would be huge. We need to bear these things in mind.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That is why the Prime Minister has said that perhaps the only person who would cheer if we were to vote to leave would be Putin. Clearly, we do not want to do anything that is going to brighten up his day.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us how this pathetic deal is in any way the fundamental reform of the EU itself that we were promised? For instance, can she tell us how it has reduced the hugely undemocratic powers of the Luxembourg court and the European Commission? The Prime Minister tries to frighten us by talking about leaving the European Union as being a leap in the dark that will, for example, lose us our present access to the single market. Does the Minister accept that Europe sells us very much more than we sell them, that we have 3 million jobs exporting to them but they have 4.5 million jobs exporting to us, and that we are in fact their largest client? Does she accept that they need our free trade very much more than we need theirs? Can she tell us why that trade will not continue, because they will come running after us to have it?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Lord’s description of who benefits most, Europe or us, from the relationship. I shall not take up time rattling through all the statistics, but I say this to the noble Lord: in the end, it is about what is of greater benefit to all of us—to the UK and to the rest of Europe. As a trading bloc, we all benefit from the UK being in the European Union. It is not just about how we benefit in this country—although we do. As for the noble Lord’s questions about sovereignty, I refer him to what I said to my noble friend Lord Lawson. I really do disagree with what he says about that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as we begin four months of campaigning, should we not just gently reflect that the most publicly apparent achievement of eight years of amusing, dynamic, flamboyant leadership in London has been gridlock?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, I do not agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)]

My Lords, is not the greatest achievement of the European Union, to which we have belonged since the 1970s, the fact that we have had 70 years of peace? After the two world wars Britain was financially at a loss. We lost our empire and we lost our ability to spend, and this is the whole purpose of the European Union being saved. If we left the European Union we would destabilise it, and that might lead to a break-up.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord certainly puts a clear case for the European Union and for our remaining in it. Much as I agree with what he has said, there is something that cannot be repeated often enough, particularly for those who are undecided—and we must always remember that a lot of people are unsure of which way to vote. So although the noble Lord is right, we also need to emphasise that the European Union does not work quite as we want it to in all areas. That is why we have been renegotiating the terms, and we are now confident enough to advocate staying in.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a supporter of Vote Leave. Does my noble friend agree with me—she probably does not—that the real threat we face, and the huge frightening leap in the dark, would be if we now remained in Europe? Europe has seen that Britain is a bit of a paper tiger. A few years ago we were saying that we wanted fundamental and far-reaching reform. Then we asked for very little, and I am afraid we settled for a lot less. When Europe comes to implement the next treaty change and the Five Presidents’ Report, and as it heads for being an ever-tighter federalist superstate, will we not be ignored, mocked, sidelined and completely stitched up?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As my noble friend predicted, I do not agree with him. One area that I would point to in order to illustrate my disagreement is what the Prime Minister secured around economic governance. Again, I do not think that it has been properly understood yet how significant the protections that he has secured are—not just for our currency, but for the City of London and our financial services. I assure my noble friend that the other member states, and particularly the French President, were in no way shy about fighting hard to prevent us getting what we wanted, but we secured a good deal for Britain in the end.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Will the Minister convey to the Prime Minister the relief that we on this side of the House feel—indeed, our sincere congratulations—that he is beginning to put such an unequivocal and clear case for our membership of the European Union? Will she urge him, in the months that lie ahead, to put that case to the whole country, including Labour supporters and people of no party affiliation, and not just to conduct a desperate internal debate inside the Conservative Party?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can certainly reassure the noble Lord that the Prime Minister will do exactly what he has just outlined. This is not about the Conservative Party; it is about the future of the United Kingdom. What we are doing here is what we believe is in the best interests of the people of this country.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, if the country votes out on 23 June, should not the first action the Government take be to repeal the European Communities Act 1972? That would enable negotiations to take place under Article 50. Secondly, is the Minister aware that earlier this month the original six leaders of the EEC came out and said that it was absolutely essential for Europe to proceed to ever-closer union, including fiscal union? In those circumstances, if Britain is not to be in that particular club, will we stop talking about being at the heart of Europe?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I have already explained, what the Prime Minister has secured on ever-closer union means is that we, the United Kingdom, can be a member of the European Union in a way that properly reflects what we want from being a member. As the Prime Minister said in his Statement, we never wanted to be part of a political union, and now we have a legally binding agreement, which will be amended in the treaties, to show that we will not be part of an ever-closer union even if other members of the EU decide that is what they want.

[Lord Willetts (Con)]

My Lords, we are rightly told that Britain’s future is as a global trading nation. But often, on trade missions abroad, one would find that other EU member states such as Germany and France had been there before us. So will the Minister confirm that membership of the European Union is not an obstacle to fulfilling those ambitions, and that we should not use our membership as an excuse for failing to tackle problems in our own performance?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend makes an important point. I very much agree with him that we have a responsibility always to get the best for Britain, whether we are acting independently and unilaterally or as part of the European Union, and we should never use the European Union as an excuse for our own inefficiencies or inadequacies.