Chairman of Committees
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the noble Lord, Lord Laming, be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of the House for this Session.
Queen’s Speech
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, first, it is a real pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, in supporting the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Indeed, I am sure I speak for the whole House in congratulating her on her first State Opening as Leader of the Opposition. Before I go any further, and on behalf of all noble Lords, I join my noble friend Lord King in extending our thanks to Black Rod and all the staff of your Lordships’ House. They have, once again, made this State Opening—the 61st by Her Majesty, in her 90th birthday year—a resounding success.
That might also be the verdict on last week’s lesser-known ceremony of Prorogation, with its Norman French about-turns by the clerks, and synchronised doffing from a crack team of noble Lords. Synchronised doffing is not as easy as it sounds. While I would not like to cast aspersions on the efforts of previous teams, I cannot overlook the glowing reviews from last Thursday: “The best doffing we’ve seen for years”, said one TV commentator; “Superb doffing”, said another; and, my favourite, “We’ve never seen doffing like this before”. Though I thought that it was a bit uncharitable when one media correspondent described it as:
“All the camp incomprehensibility of Eurovision with none of the songs”.
More seriously, the Lord Speaker, the other party leaders, the Convenor and I regularly work together in the best interests of your Lordships’ House. I should of course add the noble Lord, Lord Laming, to that group. We all owe him a debt of gratitude for accepting the Lord Chairman of Committees’ responsibilities in rather unexpected circumstances last summer and for discharging them with such good grace.
My noble friend Lord King is quite right: I did not know what he was going to say in his speech, but I knew that I could rely on him to inform and entertain. It is a great pleasure to congratulate him on his speech, but I just say two things to him: I wish that I were 101 pounds and I would like to put on record that I am not 60 inches, I am 61 inches.
My noble friend and I have crossed paths on several occasions over the years, first at the Ministry of Defence, when he was Secretary of State and I was a civil servant, and later when I became a Whip in your Lordships’ House and he was a member of my flock. My noble friend has always been known for his wisdom and courtesy but it is, perhaps, fair to say that his reputation with the ladies took a hit after his infamous encounter with my other noble friend Lady Trumpington. I have to say that I noted that my noble friend Lady Goldie referred admiringly to his profile, although I do not know whether other noble Lords noticed that. What was most striking when watching the footage of his encounter with my noble friend Lady Trumpington again is not the two-fingered salute itself, but the fact that my noble friend, having had such a response from my noble friend Lady Trumpington, simply ploughed on obliviously.
Fortunately there is another Lady T whose attention he caught for all the right reasons earlier in his career. When Baroness Thatcher made him Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, she was clear as to why he was the right person for the job. “Tom”, she said, “Ulster needs a dose of your manly good sense”. What marks my noble friend out above all is his inner steel. In addition to his time in Northern Ireland he was our Defence Secretary during the first Gulf War and the first chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee. He has seen and lived through many of the great threats this nation has faced, even surviving a terrorist attempt on his own life. That makes his central call today for vigilance in the face of the many threats before us all the more authoritative and it is exactly why the Government have placed our national security at the heart of our programme. Indeed, with the perspective and experience my noble friend brings to his contributions, he really does showcase this House at its best.
We also heard a wonderful speech from my noble friend Lady Goldie. As she said, in the past couple of weeks there has been a remarkable turnaround north of the border; an incredible achievement for Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Conservatives. Ruth won her own Edinburgh Central seat all the way from fourth place, something the Liberal Democrat Members of this House I believe may have noted and taken heart from, especially as the noble and learned Lord describes them as optimistic. But any great project needs solid foundations, and recent Tory successes in Scotland are very much built upon the hard work of my noble friend Lady Goldie as Ruth’s immediate predecessor. My noble friend has now stood down from her seat in Holyrood and will be able to devote more time to her work here. Their loss is our gain, and it means that noble Lords can get to know my noble friend Lady Goldie and the quick wit behind her formidable demeanour rather better.
I am sure that sketch writers everywhere were a bit dismayed today that she did not encounter Prince Philip while he was in the building because legend has it that Prince Philip got short shrift one time when he asked my noble friend if she was wearing tartan knickers. But to be fair, I think that the reporting at the time of that encounter was unfair to His Royal Highness because, having learned of my noble friend’s fondness for what has been described to me as wild swimming off the west coast of Scotland, it seems that His Royal Highness had got the measure of my noble friend Lady Goldie. She is well known for her one-liners and I would not even want to try to share with noble Lords today what she said when she was sat astride a Harley-Davidson. But like my noble friend Lord King, she allies good humour with keen good sense, and today she spoke powerfully on the union, bringing real authority to the subject as a pivotal figure on the Smith commission. As she says, the referendum showed a settled will for us to remain united, but it was the start and not the end of the job at hand. To secure our United Kingdom, we must and we will continue to bring growth, jobs and success to all our nations and regions.
I will come on shortly to the programme that Her Majesty laid out this morning, but before doing so I want to look back on the Session just gone. Last May, there were those who asked what this Government could achieve with a small majority of 12 in the other place and no majority in this House. The answer, and contrary to what has been suggested this afternoon, is a lot. In the course of the past 12 months we have passed 23 Acts into law, delivering on a wide range of the commitments on which we stood at the last general election. We cut tax for 31 million working people, established a national living wage, doubled free childcare for working parents and made it possible for housing association tenants to own their own homes. What is more, we legislated for a referendum on our membership of the European Union, meaning that next month, for the first time in a generation, the people of this country will get to have their say. I hope, as a member of this Government, that they will vote for us to remain part of a reformed EU.
The last Session was an important milestone for this House as well, because even though we are an unelected House, general elections have an impact here too. The Liberal Democrats returned to the opposition Benches, the Labour Party elected new leaders in both Houses—although they are very different from each other—and a majority Conservative Government were outnumbered by the two opposition parties in the Lords for the first time.
For many of the Bills this Government brought forward, such as the EU referendum, welfare reform and trade union Bills, there was apprehension about how this House would approach its scrutiny role. Yet in each of those cases, we made changes through dialogue not endless rounds of ping-pong with the other place. That approach is when this House is at its most effective, because this House improves legislation. Every Minister will agree that their Bill is better for the scrutiny it receives here. Our scrutiny serves an important purpose: to hold the Government to account and to help give the public confidence in the laws Parliament makes.
Upholding our role as a revising Chamber is hugely important to me. But if we want to be legitimate as an unelected House, we have to be mindful of the limits of that role. I believe it must always be for the elected House to have the final say. Our conventions are important because they help to protect that balance. Yes, the Government rely on those conventions to secure their business, but the House and Parliament as a whole also rely on them in order to protect our scrutiny function and our purpose.
There are three very clear themes at the heart of this Session’s programme: delivering security for working people, strengthening our national defences and increasing opportunities for the most disadvantaged. Our first task must always be to ensure that the British economy and British families are secure. To bring the public finances under control, to spread prosperity across our country and to give our police, security and intelligence agencies the powers they need to keep us safe—that is what our programme will do.
However, just as we must keep the people of this country safe and secure, so we must give them a chance to get on in life, because our society cannot be strong and cohesive as long as there are millions of people who feel that doing their best is not respected or not worth the effort. People’s opportunities are still too often shaped by where they started in life and the environment they grew up in. As a society, we have too often put people from certain backgrounds on the track only to certain kinds of jobs.
We have too many talented people unaware of how much they are capable of or what they can achieve. We want that to change. We are determined to give people, whatever their background, the tools—the character, the knowledge and the confidence—to unlock their potential. As someone who has travelled an unconventional path, and as a champion of those who might be starting from a similar place, I could not be prouder to serve in a Government who have made this a priority.
Looking at specific Bills, I am delighted that one of the three starting its passage in this House, the children and social work Bill, is linked to that life chances agenda, helping more young people to get a better start in life. Other Bills shortly to start in your Lordships’ House are the bus services Bill and the cultural property Bill. In addition, we are due to receive two Bills that will carry over from the previous Session: the Investigatory Powers Bill and the Policing and Crime Bill.
I am proud to lead this House into the Session ahead. The work we do is important and we have a vital part to play. Above all, our scrutiny is about helping to give people confidence in the laws Parliament makes. It is that purpose we must all defend and promote.
I look forward to the rest of our debate on the Address and I am delighted to say I support the Motion to Adjourn.
Prorogation: Her Majesty's Speech
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, by virtue of Her Majesty’s Commission which has now been read, we do, in Her Majesty’s name, and in obedience to Her Majesty’s Commands, prorogue this Parliament to the 18th day of May, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Wednesday, the 18th day of May.
Royal Commission
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, it not being convenient for Her Majesty personally to be present here this day, she has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared for proroguing this present Parliament.
EU Referendum: Voter Registration
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, I think the House had already resolved that it was the turn of my noble friend Lord Forsyth.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Can my noble friend confirm that there are in fact 33 countries participating in the Erasmus programme and only 28 countries in the European Union?
Economy: High Street Trade
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)
My Lords, there can be only one of us standing up at any one time. Thank you. We have not heard from the Cross Benches. After hearing from them I suggest that we go to my noble friend Lord Grade.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, I have been a non-executive director of Booker, the FTSE 250 company, for eight and a half years. When I started our internet sales were £50 million. Today, out of a turnover of £5 billion, they are £1 billion. Surely the answer is to help the high street to take advantage of the internet age. What are the Government doing to help retailers to take advantage of the internet, whether on payments, winning customers or dealing with their suppliers and the supply chain?
House of Lords: Domestic Committees
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That this House takes note of the report from the Leader’s Group on Governance, Governance of Domestic Committees in the House of Lords (HL Paper 81).
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, last March, just before Parliament dissolved for the general election, I appointed a Leader’s group to consider governance arrangements in the House of Lords. I am very glad that it was not my last act as Leader. The group, chaired by my noble friend Lady Shephard, published its report in January this year. On behalf of the whole House, I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend and the other members of her group, all of whom brought an invaluable range of experience—of government, Parliament, business and beyond—to the task. I am pleased to see many of them in their places today.
As a House, we often—some noble Lords might say too often—debate our procedures, practices and composition, but how we take decisions on the services we provide to Members and the money we spend we look at far less. Indeed, the last significant changes in that regard were made well over a decade ago when the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, set out the domestic committee structures in place today. Yet, in my first few months as Leader of the House, I sensed a growing appetite for us to seize the opportunity to examine our present structures.
In speaking to colleagues on the House Committee and to those who serve on other committees, as well as to colleagues across the House, the same questions kept coming up: whether our domestic committee structures were accountable or transparent enough, and whether it was sufficiently clear where decisions were ultimately being made. As those concerns grew, so we became united about the need to take a proper look at those decision-making processes and at how our domestic committees fit together to deliver the accountability and transparency required of any successful organisation.
Those were specific questions, able to be looked at in a focused way, and there was the shared desire to act upon them no matter who was in government after May. I was very confident about a Conservative Government returning after the general election but I was pleased that there was a unanimous view that, whoever was in power, this was an important task. That is why I set up the Leader’s Group, with a remit drawn tightly around our domestic committees, confident that there would be the consensus to make progress with the resulting report, whoever the Leader was to whom it eventually reported. I am pleased to say that the group has set out a clear-sighted package of reforms, which I hope we can all get behind.
Just as the remit of the group was focused, I hope that this debate can be too. The group brought forward a specific set of recommendations to address a specific set of issues, and I want today to be an opportunity for noble Lords to discuss those recommendations and to set the course for the way forward.
For the benefit of those less familiar with our domestic committee structures, I should perhaps run through the present arrangements. These have the House Committee at the apex, as the body responsible for financial matters and setting strategic direction. It guides the work of the various domestic committees—Administration and Works, Refreshment, Information and Works of Art—as well as the House of Lords administration.
At this point I want to place on record my sincere thanks to, and respect for, all noble Lords who serve on those committees. The structure they operate within, in theory, aims to separate the strategic from the logistical, leaving to the subordinate bodies the nuts and bolts of keeping the House running. But my noble friend’s group found that in practice it does not work like that as often as it should. I am sure she will expand on that further in her remarks but, in outline, the group found a lack of clarity in the decision-making process between the committees. It found that responsibilities among the committees are blurred, with too many committees covering similar areas; in some cases the roles of committee members are unclear and there is not enough communication between the committees and the House as a whole. In short, the group outlined the need for more—more accountability, more effectiveness and more transparency—reflecting many of the same concerns that had been raised in setting up the review. It set out an effective blueprint, looking at structures, memberships and ways of working, to address those issues.
As to structures, the group’s report calls for more clarity on remits and roles. In place of the present House Committee would be a newly refocused, although as yet untitled, senior committee, established to take a strategic, high-level approach at the head of the decision-making hierarchy. In place of the present cluster of domestic committees there would be only two: a services committee, dealing with administration, works, catering, retail and information services, and a finance committee to commission, examine and make recommendations on financial matters to the senior committee. These would be established as supporting committees, meaning that, instead of unclear responsibilities, there would be explicit delegations of powers and terms of reference, as well as the ability to refer strategic matters upwards. This would give clarity to staff and members, enabling them to take the decisions needed to drive forward priorities.
With the broad roles of these new finance and services committees, it is proposed that each has its own separate Back-Bench chair, both ultimately reporting to the Lord Speaker who would, as now, chair the senior committee. This in turn would allow the role of the Chairman of Committees to focus on the core proceedings of the House, deputising for the Lord Speaker on all matters and chairing the Procedure, Privileges, Selection and Liaison Committees. The Lord Chairman would remain a key link between the various strands of our work internally and, as such, would be a pivotal member of the senior committee. To reflect this reconfiguration, the report recommends that the Chairman should adopt a new title: senior deputy speaker. While I understand the case for this, and it may emerge as a day-to-day title, the House might like to note that to change it formally would require primary legislation.
The group also suggests two further adaptations to structures to make the Audit Committee a formal sub-committee of the senior committee and to redesignate the Works of Art Committee as an advisory panel reporting to the Lord Speaker, to reflect its specific and distinct role. Both, I believe, would add coherence to the structure overall.
On the second theme of membership, the group calls for a more focused approach. That means smaller committees of 10 members rather than 12 in most cases, with Front Bench representatives able to give clear political direction but with Back-Benchers at their heart, including the new chairs of the services and finance committees, so that committees can draw upon dedicated and expert memberships. Interestingly, and for me importantly, the report also suggests the introduction of non-executive members on the senior committee, shining more light and bringing greater accountability to the decisions we make. Together with the broader structural reforms, I believe that these changes would set the stage for a new approach.
However, to take advantage of those changes the report also identifies a third, essential theme: a need to reform ways of working. That applies first and foremost to encouraging a collegiate approach among members of the committees, as well as among members and staff, but it applies also to ensuring that members take seriously their responsibility to keep their parties and groups, and the House as a whole, informed about their work on these committees, as well as to working closely with the other place. These behavioural changes will be just as important as those we make to our structures. Ultimately, a governance regime can be effective only if the people operating within it really want it to be.
As we begin the debate today, that is the key message. To fulfil our core purpose we must be able to give the public confidence in how we operate. That applies just as much to how we take decisions internally as it does to our core work as a revising Chamber. The group’s report sets out a positive vision that works with the grain of our present approach, offering the potential for better engagement between members serving on domestic committees and the wider House, a more strategic approach to taking decisions, and a more effective framework for members and staff to work together to make changes for the better.
As I conclude, I thought I might set out where we go next. In reading the report, I was struck in particular by paragraph 62. It was emphatic that lying behind each of the examples of good governance the group saw was a clear commitment from all involved to making things work. For me, a crucial first step was for us to consider the recommendations properly. That is why, when this report was first published earlier this year, I wanted to ensure there was time for noble Lords to study it in detail and for it to be considered in party groups and the usual channels so that concerns might be brought forward. That way, when we brought the report forward to the House for discussion, we could be confident that its recommendations would command broad support.
I am extremely grateful to my counterparts from the other parties and groups for their support in that process and for joining me in supporting the recommendations that the group has outlined. I hope that other noble Lords share that enthusiasm today. Should they do so, we can move to the implementing phase. I will deal with the exact process that would follow in my concluding remarks, but noble Lords can be assured that the other party leaders and office holders, the Convener and the existing committees will be consulted. It will be during that phase that we can consider all the fine details. It will be then that we have the opportunity to take account of issues that are raised this afternoon and elsewhere, and where the House will be invited to endorse the implementing proposals we bring forward. In the mean time, I look forward to hearing more from all those taking part today and to my noble friend’s contribution, in which she will give more detail of the work of her group.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am very grateful for all the contributions today. It has been an excellent debate; I found it interesting as well as informative. I noted the loud chorus of “Hear, hear” after my noble friend Lady Shephard concluded her contribution. That is a reflection of the respect we all have for her work as chair of this group and for the group as a whole in taking on this challenge, giving it proper, careful consideration and coming forward with a very thoughtful report and set of recommendations. We have been able to see from today’s debate that there is broad support for what has been recommended, for moving forward and for making progress.
As in all organisations, the question of how we should structure our decision-making is an on-going process; it is not something where you ever arrive at the exact point when you say, “That’s that then—that’s done”. As the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, said, governance is a process of evolution. If we are to remain modern and relevant, we have to take account of changing experiences and circumstances on matters such as this.
My noble friend Lady Fookes recommended that we keep a watching brief on how these changes are implemented. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, suggested that, as part of the implementation phase, we should consider how we look at how things are going post implementation. I am happy for that to be part of the next stage. It is probably best not to prescribe how we do that, but I acknowledge that it should be part of our work.
As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, acknowledged, there is no perfect model of governance. However, what strikes me from today’s debate is how much the group has captured the concerns of noble Lords about the way decision-making happens in this House and has set out a coherent way to tackle those concerns. As the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, said, it was striking that, in the group’s consultation process, nobody argued for the current structure to be maintained. Although I am sure there are noble Lords who may have wanted the group’s remit to be set wider, the fact that the remit was narrow, and it was able to do its work in a way which has attracted consensus, is another good example of incremental reform being a model for progress. This is a lesson which I continue to learn.
On timing, I hope we are able to put in place the changes that we have been discussing today early on in the next Session. We can concentrate on the implementation phase in the period between now and the autumn and look at the detailed issues that have been raised in the course of the debate and which we need to consider further. I will talk about the implementation process and then try to respond to some of the specific queries that have been raised this afternoon.
Several noble Lords asked exactly how all this would unfold in practice and how we would consider these issues before they are finalised. Having consulted with the House authorities and with the Clerk of the Parliaments, I think that it would be most straightforward to do most of the detailed implementation through the House and Procedure Committees, the recommendations of which would ultimately come to the House for approval. We will keep this under review as we go, but the way I am expecting things to unfold is that, rather than another single resolution coming before the House, the specifics that will need to change in order to bring some of this stuff to life will feature in reports from the relevant committees, which will then get approved by the House. Thanks to the provisions of Standing Order 64, we can continue with the committees that currently exist, as presently constituted, into the new Session. Further discussions will continue alongside those formal processes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned the usual channels. In light of some of the comments this afternoon, I am a bit nervous about talking about the usual channels. Some things lend themselves best to the usual channels, but I readily acknowledge that they are not the only channel of communication. I hope also that in the weeks ahead we will continue to be able to take advantage of my noble friend’s expertise from the work she has done and that of others in the group—and, indeed, members of the existing committees—in considering the way to move forward.
What the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, said about the Information Committee’s decision to consider the outstanding issues that would need to roll over to the new structure is a very important part of the transition period. I do not think that the schedule she has set for her committee is in any way out of step with the next stage of this process. I very much welcome that initiative.
Indeed, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, for her excellent chairmanship of the Information Committee. I echo all the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made in her tribute to her. I assure her personally that the decision of the Information Committee on iPads and iPhones had my full support. She has nothing to fear in terms of the decisions that have been made previously being relevant to our proposals for changes in governance.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, raised some very detailed questions about the phasing and sequencing of some of the decisions—what committees should be set up first and so on. Again, this is something that we can take away and consider carefully. He made some important points.
A range of points were raised today. I will do my best to respond to most of them. If I fail and any noble Lord wishes to discuss any of this further with me outside the Chamber, I will be more than happy to do so.
I will make a couple of brief points about joint working between this House and the other place. It is worth reflecting on the fact that 64% of expenditure is already joint between the two Houses. That is something that we should be very pleased about, actually. It is far higher than both Houses get credit for. It is something that we want to see continue to increase. Noble Lords may like to know that there is already a big review going on to look at where there is scope for more joint working and what services would be most suitable for a next stage.
As noble Lords will understand, it is easier for some services to implement joint working than others. I note what my noble friend Lord Fowler said about the Library. I do not think that that will be in the next phase but that does not mean that it will not or should not be something for us to consider down the line. I note also what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said about legal services but, again, that is not something that is about to happen soon.
I pay tribute to the Lord Speaker with regard to joint working between the House Committee and the commission of the other place. She has already established some joint meetings of both those bodies and has been very much behind our efforts to improve co-ordination and collaboration between both Houses.
Finally on this topic, I acknowledge, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and others, that the restoration and renewal Joint Committee, which I have the great privilege of co-chairing with the Leader of the House of Commons, is a really good example of a Joint Committee of both Houses where the membership is equal and we are working together, recognising that the issue before us is one that we have to address together and cannot address separately.
Moving on to some of what I might describe as the points of detail that arose in the debate, I shall respond first to the points raised on the remits of the new committees and the relationships between them. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised the question of whether it would be clear under this new structure which decisions would sit with the senior committee and which would sit with the junior committees, or sub-committees, and my noble friend Lord Cope made similar points. I think that they both referred to some specific committees, such as the services and finance committees. I understand the concerns raised, but this is where the preliminary discussions that will take place in the House Committee, and will then have to be followed through once the new senior committee is established, are the crucial part of this change. It is about getting that clarity of remit right from the start and having the proper delegation of powers from that senior committee to the sub-committee so that, once those committees are in place, the people on them know what their responsibilities are, what they are accountable for and what the House expects from them. There were points made well about this by all noble Lords who raised them, and we need to take serious account of them in the next phase.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, raised a specific question about who would speak for the senior committee. There were other points raised as well about the role of the Chairman of Committees. Who will speak for the senior committee can, again, be discussed in the next phase, but it would be perfectly reasonable for us to assume that the person in the new post of the senior deputy speaker would be the one who would speak for the senior committee. I do not consider what is proposed in the report to be any kind of diminution of the responsibility of the Chairman of Committees—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said this, too. I see this role as being a very senior Member of this House. Yes, it will be someone whose responsibility is more focused, but we should see that as a positive step forward and not in any way a relegation of seniority.
Because of that, I note what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said about the salary of the new senior deputy speaker post. I am happy for us to consider that, but I do not think that it would be something I would necessarily advocate, because that role will continue to be very substantial and significant. As for the title of the role, the point I was making in my opening remarks is that, whatever new title we might decide to give it—whether that is senior deputy speaker or deputy Lord Speaker—we would not be able to remove the Chairman of Committees officially from that role without a change to primary legislation. However, we can of course use whatever title we choose to.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, raised an important question about the Audit Committee and whether its chair should also be a member of the senior committee. That is another important and wise suggestion, which I think we should reflect on further.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, asked about the number of non-executive directors on the senior committee and whether that should be increased. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I think it is important that we do not consider the non-executive directors as the only people who would bring expertise to the senior committee. In that regard, I would see their contribution as slightly different to that which one would normally expect non-executive directors to make to a board. I also make the point that the senior committee is one with a supervisory function, so that the Members of this House on that committee will not themselves be the executive; the executive is the administration. The noble Earl also raised an interesting point about board evaluation. That, again, is something we can consider in next steps.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, raised questions about members of the administration being full members of the group. My noble friend’s group did reflect on this carefully but did not recommend it. However, it is important that the members of staff and officers of the House who attend these committees feel able to make a full contribution to the discussions and are not in any way seen as somehow being prevented from playing their full part in them.
Other concerns were raised about the potential effects of the changes. The noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, is an excellent chairman of this House’s Works of Art Committee, and I was very grateful to her for giving us all an insight into the responsibilities of the committee. The work of that group is important and should, and will, continue. I do not think that the proposal in the Leader’s Group report for it to sit as an advisory panel to the Lord Speaker does anything to detract from the important work that it does, but again we can reflect on the relationship between the Lord Speaker and that panel, and how that works in practice, in the next stage.
Noble Lords, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and my noble friend Lady Fookes, commented on the continuing role of the Information Committee. I would again come back to what I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Although that committee currently has a very important remit and set of responsibilities, the new structure envisaged in the proposals from the Leader’s Group means that these committees will not necessarily just replicate all the work that was there before but will have a different focus and approach. They will try and look at these things at a more strategic level and avoid some of the duplication. One of the most telling examples for me as a member of the House Committee where I felt that some of the distinctions between responsibilities were not quite right was a matter which had gone through the Information Committee at great length but then became a matter that the House Committee felt it needed to get involved in.
As I say, the arguments and concerns that noble Lords have raised in this debate will be instrumental and informative as we design the remits, the delegation of powers and the memorandums of understanding. We have to get this right in the first place and be clear as to what these different committees will be responsible for.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Is the noble Baroness not referring to the issue of equipment for Members generally? There was a lot of concern in the House about this. There will be less opportunity within this new structure for the widest possible consideration of all the concerns that exist on this and other issues. I do not really think that the structure that the noble Baroness is referring to will deal with these concerns.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I understand the point that the noble Lord is making, and it is one that we have to be mindful of, but I do not think it means that what is being proposed as an alternative route for our decision-making is somehow not appropriate. What is being put forward here, and what has attracted widespread support today, is about clarity and making sure that we do not again in future find ourselves in a situation where different committees are looking at decisions that have been made by other committees and trying to reopen them and unpick them.
My noble friend Lady Fookes mentioned the workload, time commitment and different responsibilities and demands that may be placed on members of the new services committees versus those laid on members of existing committees. Again, we need to reflect on that, but I would argue that we should be clearer with potential members of the committees what the responsibilities are and, I hope, attract volunteers for this work who will be willing to take on the necessary time commitment.
Some noble Lords felt that we should remove some key elements of the package put forward by my noble friend’s group or add significantly to it. I caution against that, because it could jeopardise the progress that we have made, slow the momentum that has built up in recent months and make it difficult for us to implement. I know that there is now support for us to progress.
My noble friend Lord Cormack asked about electing members of Select Committees and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, talked about electing the Chairman of Committees and the chairmen of the European committees. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, talked about the administration and staff structures. The first of those was considered by my noble friend’s group, and it was clear in its recommendation that the members and posts of those committees should continue to be appointed. As has been reflected in the discussion today, the respective leaderships of the groups should pay particular attention to the responsibilities and skills required for them to be effective once they are in place.
I conclude by saying that I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions and to the group for setting out the path towards a more effective decision-making framework which can make pragmatic but important reforms to our internal processes. I stress again that structural changes on their own are not enough; a governance system is only as good as the people who operate within it. There needs to be a shared purpose and commitment from all those involved, and there must be a common goal and real desire to change behaviours as well as inputs. I think that we have seen that today in our discussion.
If we want the new framework to be effective and for us to embed real change, we must all be committed to making it work. Seeing the shared sense of purpose on all Benches today has given me real hope for the future in that regard. As I said, we will consider some specific points of detail very carefully, but I look forward to working with all noble Lords and making swift progress from here. I commend the Motion.
Apprenticeships
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, I think that it is the turn of the Cross Benches and then we need to move on.
Lord Aberdare
My Lords, Carolyn Fairbairn, the director-general of the employers’ organisation, the CBI, said last week that a radical rethink of the plans for the apprenticeship levy is needed if the Government are to meet their target of 3 million new apprenticeships, and that they need to be trialled before a full rollout. What is the Minister’s response to these concerns?
Regional Museums
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, it is the turn of either the Cross Benches or the Bishops, and I would imagine that the House will want to hear from the Bishops before we go to the Cross Benches and then back to the Labour Benches.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, if the rhetoric about the northern powerhouse is to have any reality behind it, it has to include access to culture and cultural developments. In the light of that, will the Minister give an assurance that the sword of Damocles hanging over the National Media Museum in Bradford might at last be lifted? Sometimes up there it feels as if London is saying, “Out, damned spot!”.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, we are getting frisky today. The House is calling to hear from my noble friend Lord Sterling.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow
My Lords, for 20 years I had the honour to be heavily involved in the National Maritime Museum, which is now Royal Museums Greenwich, and was chairman for 10 years. Many of us felt that the big 12 in this country are so rich with their works of art and everything we have on that side. Our collections are marvellous. We discussed many times that, to really help the regional museums, the big 12 should use much of their collections which are below decks, to use an expression, and not above—nearly 90%—for exhibitions to go right round the country. That would have a huge effect on places, not just educationally and locally, but for tourism, which is a very important factor for the future. Will the Minister please look into that to see whether it can be encouraged and helped?
Young People: Mentoring
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, I am going to make an executive decision: we will move on to the next Question.