Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That this House takes note of the report from the Leader’s Group on Governance, Governance of Domestic Committees in the House of Lords (HL Paper 81).
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, last March, just before Parliament dissolved for the general election, I appointed a Leader’s group to consider governance arrangements in the House of Lords. I am very glad that it was not my last act as Leader. The group, chaired by my noble friend Lady Shephard, published its report in January this year. On behalf of the whole House, I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend and the other members of her group, all of whom brought an invaluable range of experience—of government, Parliament, business and beyond—to the task. I am pleased to see many of them in their places today.
As a House, we often—some noble Lords might say too often—debate our procedures, practices and composition, but how we take decisions on the services we provide to Members and the money we spend we look at far less. Indeed, the last significant changes in that regard were made well over a decade ago when the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, set out the domestic committee structures in place today. Yet, in my first few months as Leader of the House, I sensed a growing appetite for us to seize the opportunity to examine our present structures.
In speaking to colleagues on the House Committee and to those who serve on other committees, as well as to colleagues across the House, the same questions kept coming up: whether our domestic committee structures were accountable or transparent enough, and whether it was sufficiently clear where decisions were ultimately being made. As those concerns grew, so we became united about the need to take a proper look at those decision-making processes and at how our domestic committees fit together to deliver the accountability and transparency required of any successful organisation.
Those were specific questions, able to be looked at in a focused way, and there was the shared desire to act upon them no matter who was in government after May. I was very confident about a Conservative Government returning after the general election but I was pleased that there was a unanimous view that, whoever was in power, this was an important task. That is why I set up the Leader’s Group, with a remit drawn tightly around our domestic committees, confident that there would be the consensus to make progress with the resulting report, whoever the Leader was to whom it eventually reported. I am pleased to say that the group has set out a clear-sighted package of reforms, which I hope we can all get behind.
Just as the remit of the group was focused, I hope that this debate can be too. The group brought forward a specific set of recommendations to address a specific set of issues, and I want today to be an opportunity for noble Lords to discuss those recommendations and to set the course for the way forward.
For the benefit of those less familiar with our domestic committee structures, I should perhaps run through the present arrangements. These have the House Committee at the apex, as the body responsible for financial matters and setting strategic direction. It guides the work of the various domestic committees—Administration and Works, Refreshment, Information and Works of Art—as well as the House of Lords administration.
At this point I want to place on record my sincere thanks to, and respect for, all noble Lords who serve on those committees. The structure they operate within, in theory, aims to separate the strategic from the logistical, leaving to the subordinate bodies the nuts and bolts of keeping the House running. But my noble friend’s group found that in practice it does not work like that as often as it should. I am sure she will expand on that further in her remarks but, in outline, the group found a lack of clarity in the decision-making process between the committees. It found that responsibilities among the committees are blurred, with too many committees covering similar areas; in some cases the roles of committee members are unclear and there is not enough communication between the committees and the House as a whole. In short, the group outlined the need for more—more accountability, more effectiveness and more transparency—reflecting many of the same concerns that had been raised in setting up the review. It set out an effective blueprint, looking at structures, memberships and ways of working, to address those issues.
As to structures, the group’s report calls for more clarity on remits and roles. In place of the present House Committee would be a newly refocused, although as yet untitled, senior committee, established to take a strategic, high-level approach at the head of the decision-making hierarchy. In place of the present cluster of domestic committees there would be only two: a services committee, dealing with administration, works, catering, retail and information services, and a finance committee to commission, examine and make recommendations on financial matters to the senior committee. These would be established as supporting committees, meaning that, instead of unclear responsibilities, there would be explicit delegations of powers and terms of reference, as well as the ability to refer strategic matters upwards. This would give clarity to staff and members, enabling them to take the decisions needed to drive forward priorities.
With the broad roles of these new finance and services committees, it is proposed that each has its own separate Back-Bench chair, both ultimately reporting to the Lord Speaker who would, as now, chair the senior committee. This in turn would allow the role of the Chairman of Committees to focus on the core proceedings of the House, deputising for the Lord Speaker on all matters and chairing the Procedure, Privileges, Selection and Liaison Committees. The Lord Chairman would remain a key link between the various strands of our work internally and, as such, would be a pivotal member of the senior committee. To reflect this reconfiguration, the report recommends that the Chairman should adopt a new title: senior deputy speaker. While I understand the case for this, and it may emerge as a day-to-day title, the House might like to note that to change it formally would require primary legislation.
The group also suggests two further adaptations to structures to make the Audit Committee a formal sub-committee of the senior committee and to redesignate the Works of Art Committee as an advisory panel reporting to the Lord Speaker, to reflect its specific and distinct role. Both, I believe, would add coherence to the structure overall.
On the second theme of membership, the group calls for a more focused approach. That means smaller committees of 10 members rather than 12 in most cases, with Front Bench representatives able to give clear political direction but with Back-Benchers at their heart, including the new chairs of the services and finance committees, so that committees can draw upon dedicated and expert memberships. Interestingly, and for me importantly, the report also suggests the introduction of non-executive members on the senior committee, shining more light and bringing greater accountability to the decisions we make. Together with the broader structural reforms, I believe that these changes would set the stage for a new approach.
However, to take advantage of those changes the report also identifies a third, essential theme: a need to reform ways of working. That applies first and foremost to encouraging a collegiate approach among members of the committees, as well as among members and staff, but it applies also to ensuring that members take seriously their responsibility to keep their parties and groups, and the House as a whole, informed about their work on these committees, as well as to working closely with the other place. These behavioural changes will be just as important as those we make to our structures. Ultimately, a governance regime can be effective only if the people operating within it really want it to be.
As we begin the debate today, that is the key message. To fulfil our core purpose we must be able to give the public confidence in how we operate. That applies just as much to how we take decisions internally as it does to our core work as a revising Chamber. The group’s report sets out a positive vision that works with the grain of our present approach, offering the potential for better engagement between members serving on domestic committees and the wider House, a more strategic approach to taking decisions, and a more effective framework for members and staff to work together to make changes for the better.
As I conclude, I thought I might set out where we go next. In reading the report, I was struck in particular by paragraph 62. It was emphatic that lying behind each of the examples of good governance the group saw was a clear commitment from all involved to making things work. For me, a crucial first step was for us to consider the recommendations properly. That is why, when this report was first published earlier this year, I wanted to ensure there was time for noble Lords to study it in detail and for it to be considered in party groups and the usual channels so that concerns might be brought forward. That way, when we brought the report forward to the House for discussion, we could be confident that its recommendations would command broad support.
I am extremely grateful to my counterparts from the other parties and groups for their support in that process and for joining me in supporting the recommendations that the group has outlined. I hope that other noble Lords share that enthusiasm today. Should they do so, we can move to the implementing phase. I will deal with the exact process that would follow in my concluding remarks, but noble Lords can be assured that the other party leaders and office holders, the Convener and the existing committees will be consulted. It will be during that phase that we can consider all the fine details. It will be then that we have the opportunity to take account of issues that are raised this afternoon and elsewhere, and where the House will be invited to endorse the implementing proposals we bring forward. In the mean time, I look forward to hearing more from all those taking part today and to my noble friend’s contribution, in which she will give more detail of the work of her group.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am very grateful for all the contributions today. It has been an excellent debate; I found it interesting as well as informative. I noted the loud chorus of “Hear, hear” after my noble friend Lady Shephard concluded her contribution. That is a reflection of the respect we all have for her work as chair of this group and for the group as a whole in taking on this challenge, giving it proper, careful consideration and coming forward with a very thoughtful report and set of recommendations. We have been able to see from today’s debate that there is broad support for what has been recommended, for moving forward and for making progress.
As in all organisations, the question of how we should structure our decision-making is an on-going process; it is not something where you ever arrive at the exact point when you say, “That’s that then—that’s done”. As the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, said, governance is a process of evolution. If we are to remain modern and relevant, we have to take account of changing experiences and circumstances on matters such as this.
My noble friend Lady Fookes recommended that we keep a watching brief on how these changes are implemented. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, suggested that, as part of the implementation phase, we should consider how we look at how things are going post implementation. I am happy for that to be part of the next stage. It is probably best not to prescribe how we do that, but I acknowledge that it should be part of our work.
As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, acknowledged, there is no perfect model of governance. However, what strikes me from today’s debate is how much the group has captured the concerns of noble Lords about the way decision-making happens in this House and has set out a coherent way to tackle those concerns. As the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, said, it was striking that, in the group’s consultation process, nobody argued for the current structure to be maintained. Although I am sure there are noble Lords who may have wanted the group’s remit to be set wider, the fact that the remit was narrow, and it was able to do its work in a way which has attracted consensus, is another good example of incremental reform being a model for progress. This is a lesson which I continue to learn.
On timing, I hope we are able to put in place the changes that we have been discussing today early on in the next Session. We can concentrate on the implementation phase in the period between now and the autumn and look at the detailed issues that have been raised in the course of the debate and which we need to consider further. I will talk about the implementation process and then try to respond to some of the specific queries that have been raised this afternoon.
Several noble Lords asked exactly how all this would unfold in practice and how we would consider these issues before they are finalised. Having consulted with the House authorities and with the Clerk of the Parliaments, I think that it would be most straightforward to do most of the detailed implementation through the House and Procedure Committees, the recommendations of which would ultimately come to the House for approval. We will keep this under review as we go, but the way I am expecting things to unfold is that, rather than another single resolution coming before the House, the specifics that will need to change in order to bring some of this stuff to life will feature in reports from the relevant committees, which will then get approved by the House. Thanks to the provisions of Standing Order 64, we can continue with the committees that currently exist, as presently constituted, into the new Session. Further discussions will continue alongside those formal processes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned the usual channels. In light of some of the comments this afternoon, I am a bit nervous about talking about the usual channels. Some things lend themselves best to the usual channels, but I readily acknowledge that they are not the only channel of communication. I hope also that in the weeks ahead we will continue to be able to take advantage of my noble friend’s expertise from the work she has done and that of others in the group—and, indeed, members of the existing committees—in considering the way to move forward.
What the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, said about the Information Committee’s decision to consider the outstanding issues that would need to roll over to the new structure is a very important part of the transition period. I do not think that the schedule she has set for her committee is in any way out of step with the next stage of this process. I very much welcome that initiative.
Indeed, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, for her excellent chairmanship of the Information Committee. I echo all the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made in her tribute to her. I assure her personally that the decision of the Information Committee on iPads and iPhones had my full support. She has nothing to fear in terms of the decisions that have been made previously being relevant to our proposals for changes in governance.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, raised some very detailed questions about the phasing and sequencing of some of the decisions—what committees should be set up first and so on. Again, this is something that we can take away and consider carefully. He made some important points.
A range of points were raised today. I will do my best to respond to most of them. If I fail and any noble Lord wishes to discuss any of this further with me outside the Chamber, I will be more than happy to do so.
I will make a couple of brief points about joint working between this House and the other place. It is worth reflecting on the fact that 64% of expenditure is already joint between the two Houses. That is something that we should be very pleased about, actually. It is far higher than both Houses get credit for. It is something that we want to see continue to increase. Noble Lords may like to know that there is already a big review going on to look at where there is scope for more joint working and what services would be most suitable for a next stage.
As noble Lords will understand, it is easier for some services to implement joint working than others. I note what my noble friend Lord Fowler said about the Library. I do not think that that will be in the next phase but that does not mean that it will not or should not be something for us to consider down the line. I note also what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said about legal services but, again, that is not something that is about to happen soon.
I pay tribute to the Lord Speaker with regard to joint working between the House Committee and the commission of the other place. She has already established some joint meetings of both those bodies and has been very much behind our efforts to improve co-ordination and collaboration between both Houses.
Finally on this topic, I acknowledge, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and others, that the restoration and renewal Joint Committee, which I have the great privilege of co-chairing with the Leader of the House of Commons, is a really good example of a Joint Committee of both Houses where the membership is equal and we are working together, recognising that the issue before us is one that we have to address together and cannot address separately.
Moving on to some of what I might describe as the points of detail that arose in the debate, I shall respond first to the points raised on the remits of the new committees and the relationships between them. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised the question of whether it would be clear under this new structure which decisions would sit with the senior committee and which would sit with the junior committees, or sub-committees, and my noble friend Lord Cope made similar points. I think that they both referred to some specific committees, such as the services and finance committees. I understand the concerns raised, but this is where the preliminary discussions that will take place in the House Committee, and will then have to be followed through once the new senior committee is established, are the crucial part of this change. It is about getting that clarity of remit right from the start and having the proper delegation of powers from that senior committee to the sub-committee so that, once those committees are in place, the people on them know what their responsibilities are, what they are accountable for and what the House expects from them. There were points made well about this by all noble Lords who raised them, and we need to take serious account of them in the next phase.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, raised a specific question about who would speak for the senior committee. There were other points raised as well about the role of the Chairman of Committees. Who will speak for the senior committee can, again, be discussed in the next phase, but it would be perfectly reasonable for us to assume that the person in the new post of the senior deputy speaker would be the one who would speak for the senior committee. I do not consider what is proposed in the report to be any kind of diminution of the responsibility of the Chairman of Committees—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said this, too. I see this role as being a very senior Member of this House. Yes, it will be someone whose responsibility is more focused, but we should see that as a positive step forward and not in any way a relegation of seniority.
Because of that, I note what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said about the salary of the new senior deputy speaker post. I am happy for us to consider that, but I do not think that it would be something I would necessarily advocate, because that role will continue to be very substantial and significant. As for the title of the role, the point I was making in my opening remarks is that, whatever new title we might decide to give it—whether that is senior deputy speaker or deputy Lord Speaker—we would not be able to remove the Chairman of Committees officially from that role without a change to primary legislation. However, we can of course use whatever title we choose to.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, raised an important question about the Audit Committee and whether its chair should also be a member of the senior committee. That is another important and wise suggestion, which I think we should reflect on further.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, asked about the number of non-executive directors on the senior committee and whether that should be increased. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I think it is important that we do not consider the non-executive directors as the only people who would bring expertise to the senior committee. In that regard, I would see their contribution as slightly different to that which one would normally expect non-executive directors to make to a board. I also make the point that the senior committee is one with a supervisory function, so that the Members of this House on that committee will not themselves be the executive; the executive is the administration. The noble Earl also raised an interesting point about board evaluation. That, again, is something we can consider in next steps.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, raised questions about members of the administration being full members of the group. My noble friend’s group did reflect on this carefully but did not recommend it. However, it is important that the members of staff and officers of the House who attend these committees feel able to make a full contribution to the discussions and are not in any way seen as somehow being prevented from playing their full part in them.
Other concerns were raised about the potential effects of the changes. The noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, is an excellent chairman of this House’s Works of Art Committee, and I was very grateful to her for giving us all an insight into the responsibilities of the committee. The work of that group is important and should, and will, continue. I do not think that the proposal in the Leader’s Group report for it to sit as an advisory panel to the Lord Speaker does anything to detract from the important work that it does, but again we can reflect on the relationship between the Lord Speaker and that panel, and how that works in practice, in the next stage.
Noble Lords, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and my noble friend Lady Fookes, commented on the continuing role of the Information Committee. I would again come back to what I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Although that committee currently has a very important remit and set of responsibilities, the new structure envisaged in the proposals from the Leader’s Group means that these committees will not necessarily just replicate all the work that was there before but will have a different focus and approach. They will try and look at these things at a more strategic level and avoid some of the duplication. One of the most telling examples for me as a member of the House Committee where I felt that some of the distinctions between responsibilities were not quite right was a matter which had gone through the Information Committee at great length but then became a matter that the House Committee felt it needed to get involved in.
As I say, the arguments and concerns that noble Lords have raised in this debate will be instrumental and informative as we design the remits, the delegation of powers and the memorandums of understanding. We have to get this right in the first place and be clear as to what these different committees will be responsible for.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Is the noble Baroness not referring to the issue of equipment for Members generally? There was a lot of concern in the House about this. There will be less opportunity within this new structure for the widest possible consideration of all the concerns that exist on this and other issues. I do not really think that the structure that the noble Baroness is referring to will deal with these concerns.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I understand the point that the noble Lord is making, and it is one that we have to be mindful of, but I do not think it means that what is being proposed as an alternative route for our decision-making is somehow not appropriate. What is being put forward here, and what has attracted widespread support today, is about clarity and making sure that we do not again in future find ourselves in a situation where different committees are looking at decisions that have been made by other committees and trying to reopen them and unpick them.
My noble friend Lady Fookes mentioned the workload, time commitment and different responsibilities and demands that may be placed on members of the new services committees versus those laid on members of existing committees. Again, we need to reflect on that, but I would argue that we should be clearer with potential members of the committees what the responsibilities are and, I hope, attract volunteers for this work who will be willing to take on the necessary time commitment.
Some noble Lords felt that we should remove some key elements of the package put forward by my noble friend’s group or add significantly to it. I caution against that, because it could jeopardise the progress that we have made, slow the momentum that has built up in recent months and make it difficult for us to implement. I know that there is now support for us to progress.
My noble friend Lord Cormack asked about electing members of Select Committees and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, talked about electing the Chairman of Committees and the chairmen of the European committees. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, talked about the administration and staff structures. The first of those was considered by my noble friend’s group, and it was clear in its recommendation that the members and posts of those committees should continue to be appointed. As has been reflected in the discussion today, the respective leaderships of the groups should pay particular attention to the responsibilities and skills required for them to be effective once they are in place.
I conclude by saying that I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions and to the group for setting out the path towards a more effective decision-making framework which can make pragmatic but important reforms to our internal processes. I stress again that structural changes on their own are not enough; a governance system is only as good as the people who operate within it. There needs to be a shared purpose and commitment from all those involved, and there must be a common goal and real desire to change behaviours as well as inputs. I think that we have seen that today in our discussion.
If we want the new framework to be effective and for us to embed real change, we must all be committed to making it work. Seeing the shared sense of purpose on all Benches today has given me real hope for the future in that regard. As I said, we will consider some specific points of detail very carefully, but I look forward to working with all noble Lords and making swift progress from here. I commend the Motion.