Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Castlederg was very much in the news this summer. We all need to be very sensitive in dealing with the past, but a party whose Members do not take their seats in this House, Sinn Fein, organised a celebratory parade through Castlederg, at which the speaker was Gerry Kelly, a leading Sinn Fein Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That was seen as deeply hurtful by relatives who lost loved ones in Castlederg.

Yet we are lectured about the need to move forward. We do need to move forward in Northern Ireland, but everybody needs to move forward. Republicans and Sinn Fein—and, indeed, loyalists—cannot have it both ways: they cannot say that they are willing to move forward, but then eulogise the terrorist activities in which they engaged in the past. They cannot make a false distinction between the sordid activities of so-called dissidents today, which they say are intolerable and unacceptable, and exactly the same behaviour 30, 20 or 10 years ago, which they say was perfectly acceptable because it was by the Provisional IRA. It was all unacceptable and totally needless: it was all about inflicting pain and suffering on innocent people.

I understand what the hon. Member for Foyle is seeking to do through new clause 3, but I have concerns about the overall impression left by laying reports before Parliament. Paragraphs (c) and (d) of subsection (4) mention

“apologies that have been given by any Government or public body”.

The only reference to apologies is therefore in relation to Governments or public bodies. I understand what the hon. Gentleman has said, but that points up the difficulty here, because the clear impression that would go out is that nobody is laying reports of apologies for the 1,700 deaths by the Provisional IRA and the hundreds by loyalist paramilitaries. They would not get the same kind of attention or concentration. That issue is very live and raw in Northern Ireland today, and it needs to be addressed.

The proposals therefore have some merits in some respects, but they are flawed for the reasons that I have set out. They should be fed into the Haass process, but the House should not take them forward tonight.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I rise to make a short contribution in support of the new clauses tabled by me and my hon. Friends the Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell).

We want to bring some clarity to the issue of victims and the past. There are various issues that relate to the troubles, as they are euphemistically called, which took place over 30-odd years in Northern Ireland and during which many people right across the community lost their lives. The SDLP wants to underscore the fact that murder was wrong and that those who perpetrated it were wrong to do so and were culpable in doing so. There are issues with the past that relate to victims, flags and emblems. All those matters are rightly being addressed by Richard Haass in the current talks process, which is due to be completed by the end of December. We look forward to those findings.

It is opportune that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle has tabled the new clauses and particularly new clause 1, which relates to patterns and lessons from reports on aspects of the past. One of the critical cases happened in my constituency. I do not highlight it because six men were murdered by loyalists, but simply to illustrate a point. A police inquiry was carried out by the RUC in which the families were not really involved. They were never really asked for their opinions or asked about what happened on that night. They were always searching for the truth. There was a police ombudsman’s report into the police investigation. Both were found wanting. The police ombudsman’s report was contested because it suggested that what happened was tantamount to collusion, but it did not say that.

That report required there to be a further police investigation, which is still ongoing. The police are fact checking what they have put in their voluminous report. The senior police officers who have undertaken the investigation have told me that forensics show that some of the weapons that were used on the night of 18 June 1994 were used in other incidents in which people were killed at around the same time, which was a couple of months before both ceasefires were announced. They cannot provide their comprehensive report into Loughinisland because it relates directly to other deaths, murders, bombings and incidents.

[Naomi Long]

The hon. Lady touches on a point that I had intended to raise with the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). At the end of an Historical Enquiries Team review of a case, it is not necessarily a closed case, but could still be an open case in which new information could lead to prosecution. Is there a risk that publishing detailed reports that imply patterns could prejudice the outcome of future prosecutions? Would that not have to be carefully managed?

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I do not necessarily disagree with her, but I will proceed with the point I am making.

Senior police officers have highlighted the fact that various weapons that were used in the Loughinisland incident were probably used in other incidents. That has precipitated further analysis and fact checking to establish who or what group may have perpetrated that dastardly crime. I am sure that there are patterns of activity in other incidents throughout the 35 years.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Am I right that the hon. Lady suggested that in 1994, the Royal Ulster Constabulary did not discuss what had happened with the victim’s family, or did I mishear? I would be surprised if that had happened.

[Ms Ritchie]

The RUC did not discuss the case adequately and left all six families, some of whom are directly related to me, feeling very unfulfilled. I think that that would be the best way of describing it. If the matter had been adequately addressed at the time and prosecutions had been forthcoming, we might not be in the place we are in now.

To return to new clause 1, there is a clear need for the Secretary of State to

“appoint a person or persons to prepare an analysis of findings, issues, patterns or lessons”.

In the case that I am describing, the police have said that there are patterns and lessons. The best way to deal with such matters is for somebody to document them. I believe that that is true right across the board and right across the community. I am sure that there are many similar incidents.

Given that the Minister was formerly at the Ministry of Defence, perhaps he could provide some elucidation on the Ministry of Defence files that have been held in Derbyshire and which the Historical Enquiries Team alleges it was not aware of until June or July of this year. The contents of those files could have been helpful in bringing prosecutions and in providing elucidation.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I am afraid that I have no knowledge of that and that I now have no responsibility for it either.

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[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the Minister for his helpful intervention. I have received some parliamentary answers on this issue, so it is on the record. However, I am still not satisfied because I know that those files are available. I simply want to know why they were not pursued, given that they might have been helpful in bringing prosecutions. Perhaps he could pursue that with Ministers in the MOD.

In summary, the new clause is eminently sensible at this time. It could inform the debate.

[Lady Hermon]

I wonder whether the hon. Lady will take this opportunity to address a valid point that was made by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). How do she and her colleagues propose that the Secretary of State would appoint the person or persons who would prepare such an analysis? What criteria would be used? Would it be done by a man or a woman? Would the person be an international figure? Who do she and her colleagues have in mind?

[Ms Ritchie]

We would be happy to provide some information on that. It could be an individual, a range of individuals or a range of bodies.

Suffice it to say that we believe that this device is required in order to inform because patterns have emerged in various cases, such as in the weapons that were used, that suggest who might have been involved in carrying out murders. It is good to learn those lessons and to have them documented. The compendium of work by Anne Cadwallader, which was published several weeks ago, suggests that such a device is urgently required.

[Dr McCrea]

I have listened with interest to the speeches that have been made. New clause 1, which was proposed by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), states:

“The Secretary of State may appoint a person or persons to prepare an analysis of findings, issues, patterns or lessons from various reports in particular events of Northern Ireland’s troubled past.”

Let us be honest in saying that the past is a difficult subject. It is rightly called “Northern Ireland’s troubled past”.

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[Mr Lewis]

That is very generous of the hon. Gentleman. Eddie McGrady earned tremendous respect, not only in all parts of this House, but across the divides in Northern Ireland. He genuinely believed in peace and condemned the use of violence at every opportunity. Perhaps most of all, he will be remembered for being a great fighter for social justice and fairness.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) for their tributes. As the successor to Mr McGrady in South Down, I thank them both for their kind remarks, which I will pass on to all our colleagues but most of all to his family, who are grieving. My predecessor was a person of certain distinction and certain political intellect, and somebody whose political representation stretched right across the community.

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[Ms Ritchie]

I welcome the opportunity to speak on Third Reading. We had a good debate on Second Reading and during part of the Committee stage in this Chamber in June, and my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) took the Bill forward in Committee. Tonight we discussed further amendments on Report and now we have the Third Reading debate.

As Member of Parliament for South Down I want to thank all Members on the Front and Back Benches and across various parties for the tribute that they have paid tonight to the former hon. Member for South Down, Eddie McGrady, who passed away last Monday afternoon in Down hospital. I worked for and with Eddie for many years, and I, like other hon. Members here tonight, always found him a man of considerable integrity, hard work, dedication and commitment to all his constituents without fear or favour. He represented the true hallmarks of what a Member of Parliament should be, at a time in Northern Ireland when it was difficult to engage in that particular role because of ongoing violence, ongoing deaths, ongoing threats and the ongoing murder of many of his constituents, some of whom I have already referred to in this debate. He condemned all of those unequivocally, because he always believed that the principle of democracy must reign. He, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and many other party members, participated faithfully in the negotiations on the Good Friday agreement, because we firmly believed that that was the pathway and the direction of travel to the resolution of our conflict, bringing about a final political settlement on the island of Ireland, espousing the relationships between Unionists and nationalists in the north, between the north and south of the island and between Britain and Ireland, which were characterised by the political institutions that were established as a result of the Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

On behalf of my party and my SDLP colleagues in this House, I condemn the terrible and horrendous attack yet again on the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and on her constituency office. Such attacks are an affront to the democratic process and to democracy. Again, I emphasise that this House and all Members adhere to the principle of democracy, and we want that to reign supreme. Those who carry out such acts of violence are reprehensible, and their deeds are reprehensible.

The Bill, with its 29 clauses, is being debated at a time, as the Minister said, when there has been no particular crisis in Northern Ireland. It simply reflects a movement in the democratic process in Northern Ireland. We in the SDLP—my hon. Friends the Members for Foyle, for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) and me—would like to have enhanced the Bill with the inclusion of clauses to deal with the past, which is currently the subject of the Haass talks, bringing back the whole issue of petitions of concern to what they were meant to be under the Good Friday agreement of 1998, and the whole area of statutory duties with regard to good relations. We welcome the greater level of transparency in relation to donations and the Government’s further commitment tonight on that, which was originally brought forward by the hon. Member for Belfast East.

In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and I raised the issues to do with dual mandate. We asked for that area of the dual mandate to be extended to the Lords and Seanad Eireann in the Republic of Ireland, because that would be more comprehensive and would deal with the issue in a much fuller way.

In Committee, I tabled amendments on the length of the Assembly mandate, which has been referred to tonight by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). We believe that the extension of the Assembly term from four to five years is undemocratic, because Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who fought the election in May 2011, those Members who were elected, and those people who voted for all candidates in that election, did so for a four-year term, not a five-year term. I understand the Government’s wish for synchronisation, so that matters concur with what is happening in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, but we in the SDLP are clear that that is a disruption to the democratic process and to the principle of democracy. On Second Reading, I referred to the mystery tour, and why that decision had been taken. When the Secretary of State, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and other organs of political activity in Northern Ireland were supporting a four-year term, why was it automatically changed to a five-year term? So far I have not received a sufficiently adequate answer to that mystery or puzzle. Perhaps the Minister will be able to elucidate that tonight.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that whatever the pros and cons of the delay of the election to the Northern Ireland Assembly, whether or not it is delayed for a year could hardly be categorised as an issue of burning interest among the people in Northern Ireland?

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The people of Northern Ireland fully subscribe to the principles of democracy and, I think, contrary to what he says, would be concerned about that.

In conclusion, although the political process in Northern Ireland has moved on and there is now a concentration on the social, health and economic agenda, we want to see those processes built on. We want to see total delivery for the people of Northern Ireland through the Northern Ireland Assembly. We want to see an Assembly and an Executive that are actually working for the people on all the issues that matter, rather than some of the sterile debates and decisions that have taken place in recent months.

We want the British and Irish Governments to work with the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive on energy, economic development, urban regeneration, jobs and the economy, because we all—I am sure that this applies to all parties from Northern Ireland represented here—want to see delivery for the people in relation to Treasury and fiscal matters. We want to see our tourism protected. In that regard, and in advance of the autumn statement, there is a need for VAT on tourism to complement the level it is at in the Republic of Ireland, because we do not want our tourism industry, our jobs and our economy—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order.

[Ms Ritchie]

In conclusion, after that slight detour— I am back on track, Mr Deputy Speaker—and in relation to the general principles of the Bill, we look forward to a positive solution from the Haass talks on issues relating to flags, emblems, the past and victims, some of which we would have liked to have been addressed by new clauses in the Bill, but I am pleased to have been able to participate this evening.

Northern Ireland

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Donaldson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We hear republicans talk about a truth process and the need for truth, yet when the challenge has been brought to their door, I think, for example, of the Saville inquiry into the events in Londonderry in 1972. When Martin McGuinness, now Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, gave evidence to that inquiry, he refused to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, citing some IRA code that he had signed up to when he joined the Provisional IRA.

Sinn Fein agreed to co-operate with the Smithwick inquiry, which is investigating circumstances surrounding the murders of the two most senior officers of the Royal Ulster Constabulary—Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan—killed by the IRA in south Armagh. Sinn Fein agreed to assist the inquiry with its investigation, and designated two IRA members from south Armagh to meet lawyers representing the Smithwick inquiry. It was a farce. The two IRA members arrived at the meeting; lawyers were present, there was a discussion, and questions were asked. Each time a question was asked that might in some remote way have caused the IRA members to implicate any member of the IRA in any way whatsoever, they left the room, made a phone call, came back in and said, “We cannot answer that question.”

That was a private meeting with lawyers. It was not on the public record or in the public domain, yet even in those circumstances the IRA could not tell the truth about what happened and the circumstances surrounding the murder of the two most senior RUC officers to be killed in the troubles. What hope do we have of getting the truth from Irish republicans when their leadership, when called on to tell the truth, cannot do it, and when those members who have been designated by the leadership to tell the truth also refuse to do so? The problem for me is that when the state is called on to tell the truth, records are brought out, filing cabinets opened, and it is all laid bare.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) for initiating this important debate on dealing with the past. Is he aware of the several hundreds of files lodged in a place in Derbyshire that have not yet been released to the Historical Enquiries Team? Those would bring great benefit to the Police Service of Northern Ireland in investigating many unsolved crimes.

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[Mrs Villiers]

In the Prime Minister’s statement on Bloody Sunday, he reiterated very clearly that the vast majority of those who served in Northern Ireland, whether in the Army or the RUC, served with distinction, integrity, courage and valour. He also said, however, that one does not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible. What happened in Londonderry in 1972 was indefensible. Whether that will lead to criminal prosecutions is a matter for the police and the prosecution authorities in Northern Ireland. It is not a matter for politicians to intervene in. I am sure that great care will be taken in deciding whether it is appropriate for a prosecution to go forward in relation to what happened on that day.

[Ms Ritchie]

I emphasise that murder was and is always wrong, and that terrorism was and is always wrong. In so doing, and to bring some relief to the victims, may I ask the Secretary of State if she would consider immediate discussions with the Secretary of State for Defence to ensure that the files held in Derbyshire are released to the Historical Enquiries Team for its investigation? That would bring relief right across Northern Ireland in terms of all the unsolved cases.

[Mrs Villiers]

I am certainly happy to have a conversation with the Secretary of State for Defence on that matter, which the hon. Lady has raised on a number of occasions. I reiterate, however, that the need for transparency always has to be tempered against the need to protect people who might come under threat if their names were disclosed, and to take account of national security interests.

In her historic speech during her visit to Ireland and Dublin castle in 2011, Her Majesty the Queen spoke of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it. It is impossible to be involved in Northern Ireland and not be aware of the power of the past to affect current events, but we know that with the same kind of leadership and courage shown over recent years, the people of Northern Ireland can build a prosperous and united future together. Working with them, that is what the Government are resolutely determined to achieve.

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[Dr McDonnell]

At this point, may I welcome you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to your place and say what a privilege it is to speak in this Chamber under your chairmanship?

I will respond later to the comment that was just made, because it is a clear example of what is wrong, rather than what is right.

The past is a more intractable and complex issue than flags and parades and it casts a long shadow in Northern Ireland. By far the best and most coherent blueprint for tackling the past is the report of Lord Eames and Denis Bradley. The group jointly chaired by Lord Eames and Denis Bradley carried out an immense amount of work, publishing a report that ran to almost 200 pages and carried more than 30 main recommendations. It is unacceptable that such a balanced and carefully considered document should apparently be forgotten—gathering dust on a shelf somewhere—because of the controversy that attached to one of its recommendations in relation to ex gratia payments. The SDLP believes Eames-Bradley still has much to commend it. All would benefit from giving it the reconsideration it has well-earned and is due, while, of course, bringing additional ideas of their own to the table.

There are many among us who would wish to forget the past, but there are many victims out there whose lives have been wrecked and who cannot move on without closure.

[Ms Ritchie]

Nearly 20 years ago six people from my constituency of South Down were murdered in cold blood at O’Toole’s bar in Loughinisland, and nearly 20 years later the victims and families of those six good men have still not received justice or an answer as to why they were killed, and those who carried out this heinous crime have still not been brought to justice. Does my hon. Friend agree that the PSNI must now complete its investigation, based on the work of the former police ombudsman, so that families have a pathway to justice and truth?

[Dr McDonnell]

I agree with my hon. Friend. [Interruption.] I also agree with others who are whispering from a sedentary position that there are many victims out there whose lives have been wrecked and who cannot move on without closure and without answers. I do not distinguish between people based on what their politics were or what their religion was: innocent victims are innocent victims.

Unfortunately, time and again the past comes back to haunt us. I am told that this evening “Channel 4 News” will bring us some horrible truths about the past in Northern Ireland, and on Friday a book will be published called “Lethal Allies”, chronicling some of the criminal collusions between renegade elements of the security forces and loyalist killers. I am given to believe that, among its revelations, it will throw some light on the horrific murder of a former colleague of mine, Dinny Mullen. Dinny was the father of my friend and colleague, Denise Fox. Dinny was targeted and murdered in his own home because he was an SDLP activist. His crime was that he was the election agent for my colleague, Seamus Mallon, a former Member of this House.

There is a murky past out there, and while I must put on record my view that the vast majority of the members of the RUC—as the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) said earlier—and the security forces, including many who are now Members of this House, served with integrity, honour and distinction, a small number of others acted in the shadows and they dishonoured that honourable vast majority. They acted in a way that was no better than those they were attempting to oppose—the terrorists they were challenging. They acted well outside the law, and lines of accountability were blurred and, indeed, ignored. They acted directly and indirectly in acts of terrorism. The gang that murdered Dinny Mullen went on within a short space of time, and with little challenge by police or security forces, to murder well in excess of 100 people, including members of the Miami show band. We need to get closure on a lot of these issues.

I want to say a few words about the two Government co-guarantors and about an earlier point that was made. The British and Irish Governments, who are co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement, must be bold, decisive and vigilant in standing up to the narrow self-interest of the DUP and Sinn Fein, which the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) referred to. The DUP and Sinn Fein made a savage attack on what was otherwise a very positive and creative planning Bill. They tried to hollow it out and destroy it, and the Minister responsible had no choice but to dismantle it. This was petty party self-interest to destroy the Bill.

The two Governments must remain centrally involved in the Haass process and be prepared to underwrite the comprehensive agreement that I hope we will have, with good will and mutual respect. I compliment Peter Robinson, leader of the DUP, on what he has said in two recent very significant recent speeches. With attitudes such as that, we can achieve a further agreement and achieve peace.

Oral Answers to Questions

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

The hon. Gentleman raises some very grave matters, and I would certainly encourage anyone who has been the victim of abuse to approach the police with that information, and anyone who has knowledge of such cases to do so too. It is obviously crucial that this scourge of society is eliminated and that the voluntary sector, the police and the Government give all the support possible to victims of abuse.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

The Secretary of State rightly recognises the role of the voluntary sector in helping victims, but does she recognise that the ludicrous restrictions in the Government’s lobbying Bill will prevent these very groups from carrying out important advocacy work on behalf of victims and others because the Government say that they will not be allowed to engage with politicians in the year up to a general election? Will she ask her colleagues to reconsider this aspect of the lobbying Bill?

[Mrs Villiers]

I think I can provide the hon. Lady with some reassurance. The lobbying Bill will continue to permit the voluntary sector to campaign on general issues, but if a voluntary organisation seeks to campaign for particular candidates in a general election, it will be asked to account for its finances and spending and will be subject to limits. I think that that is a fair reform.

Northern Ireland

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I hope that the Orange Order is reflecting on the scenes of violence—they do not help any cause. They certainly do not assist the cause of cultural tolerance, and they certainly do not make it easy to resolve the matter next year in a way that is acceptable to all sides.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

In condemning the violence right across Belfast and in other parts of Northern Ireland, and in extending best wishes to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), may I ask the Secretary of State whether she agrees that the responsibility for the violence and disorder lies with the perpetrators rather than the lawful authority of the Parades Commission? Does she further agree that the violence stems from anger, and that that anger stems from rhetoric used by certain members of the loyal orders and certain members of the Unionist parties? Will she, along with me, urge them to desist from making such comments, so that a shared society can be built throughout Northern Ireland?

[Mrs Villiers]

I agree that the people responsible for the violence are the perpetrators: the people chucking petrol bombs and attacking the police in this disgraceful way. It is important that, in the coming days, all of us who care about Northern Ireland seek to calm the situation and that a lead be given by the Orange Order. Northern Ireland’s political leadership has made it clear that it wants the situation calmed and that it condemns the violence, so I hope that the people on the streets will heed that call and realise that the violence is hugely damaging to Northern Ireland and does not support any cause. It is time for the debate about parades to come off the streets and to be channelled into a political process.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nigel Mills]

I bow to the hon. Gentleman’s expertise, but surely he agrees that such people can choose whether to donate a large amount to a party. If my amendment were passed, they could still donate £7,499 every year without their names being published. Surely he agrees that a donation can reach such a level that the donor must accept that it should be subject to transparency, because of the amount of influence that that donor might be exerting. The amendment provides that, in just over 14 months’ time, any donation that exceeds £7,500 will be made public. That would give an individual 14 months in which to make any large donation to a party that he or she wished to make—without the information being published—which would presumably tide the party over.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

This topic is very important to those of us who are involved in the political process in Northern Ireland. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is necessary to balance the security risk against the public good, and that in this instance the public want transparency and accountability in politics?

[Nigel Mills]

Yes. I made that point at the outset. The need for absolute security must be balanced against the need for transparency, and I decided that the level at which the balance tilted towards transparency was £7,500. The hon. Lady might choose a different figure, but there must be a point at which donations are seen to buy influence, and the details should therefore be published.

The leader of the hon. Lady’s party gave some of the most compelling evidence to the Select Committee. He said that his big fear was that if a small business man gave £1,000 to his, and her, party, another party might knock on the door and demand £2,000, because that business man was clearly willing to donate. I think that there is a risk at that level. That is why I did not table an amendment proposing that all donations should be made public, and I think that that is why the Select Committee recommended the £7,500 threshold as well.

Fifteen years after the Good Friday agreement, with all the progress that has been made, can we really justify maintaining the secrecy of all the large political donations to Northern Ireland parties when in the rest of the UK we have the publication of much smaller donations with no trouble? We accept that there is a unique situation in Northern Ireland. The security situation there is clearly different from what those of us representing seats in the mainland face, but for how many more years can we tolerate there not being this transparency in politics in the UK?

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I cannot support amendment 2, but I commend amendment 6, which was tabled by members of my party and presented very eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North. I believe that it presents us with a way forward in the Province.

[Ms Ritchie]

rose—

[The Temporary Chairman (Mr Philip Hollobone)]

The hon. Lady has been very patient, and now her moment has arrived.

[Ms Ritchie]

Thank you, Mr Hollobone. I wish to speak to amendments 7 and 8 and amendment 6.

Given that we are living in a more normal society in Northern Ireland—although the degree of that normality varies, and we have seen it ebb and flow over the last few months—I believe that the anonymity relating to donations could now be lifted, not necessarily next October but perhaps at an earlier date, as suggested by the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills).

I cannot disagree with what I understand to be the intended purpose of the amendments. It is important that, in trying to achieve a greater level of political maturity and in the practice of politics generally, we strive to achieve the highest standards of public life, whether we are serving our constituents or executing our parliamentary duties here at Westminster and in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The public ask us to serve them, and the duty to serve them is in our contract with them when we are elected as members of political parties. The electorate rightly demand from us the highest standards in public office in the execution of that contract, and it is important for the guiding principles of transparency, openness and accountability to constitute not just the pillars on which our fledgling democracy is built, but the rules that govern donations to political parties serving us in public life and wider civic society.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I acknowledge that there may be concern about security issues—concern that was expressed by the leader of our party when he gave evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. There is a need to protect donors, because some of them—and some parties —fear that they may might be at risk from a terrorist or other threat. However, if we have learned anything over the last few months—and over the last few days, when television programmes have contained revelations about alleged political interference in certain bodies—it is the importance of giving some form of resilience and confidence to the public.

In that respect, I do not have any problem in supporting the amendments of the hon. Member for Belfast East, although it will not come as a surprise to learn that I do not support the amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) because like my party colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I believe we live in the island of Ireland. I believe that fervently as a democratic Irish nationalist, but notwithstanding that, I represent a border constituency, and many people at the southern end of it daily travel to places of employment in County Louth. They pay taxes sometimes in both the north of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They also have their children educated in the north, and they buy goods and services in the south and the north. There is that exchange of ideas and people. They view people in County Louth, albeit it is in the south of Ireland—in the Republic of Ireland, a different jurisdiction—as their neighbours and friends. In those circumstances, with that exchange of people and ideas, I cannot support this amendment. I am sure DUP Members will perfectly understand where the parliamentary party of the SDLP is coming from in that respect.

I also believe that we need to see progress on a whole range of matters, however. Mr Haass has been appointed today to chair the all-party talks on flags and emblems and reconciliation. It is important that we move towards that in the next phase of devolution so we can see the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement, including support from the British Government for a Bill of Rights that is dedicated to the needs and requirements of Northern Ireland.

[Lady Hermon]

May we clarify one little point of conflict between the hon. Lady and her colleague, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)? He supported the thrust of the amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), but he suggested that January was a bit too soon and perhaps the tax year would be better. However, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) has just said she supports the amendments of the hon. Member for Belfast East, so is it January, or is it March and the tax year, or has the hon. Member for South Down got further ideas?

[Ms Ritchie]

It was my very clear understanding that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle said that if the hon. Member for Belfast East were to press her amendment to a Division, he, like me, would support her—although I think I might be a Teller in such a Division. We in the SDLP believe that there is a need to move towards greater transparency and accountability. That can be balanced against the political progress we are making in the interests of the public good and, above all, the wider needs of society in Northern Ireland, because the experience of the last few weeks tells us that the public want politics to move in that direction. They want us, while serving them, to exercise our job in the right and proper and accountable manner.

[Stephen Pound]

We have heard a great deal this evening about the threats and dangers that could possibly be attracted to party political donors. It is perhaps salutary to mention that if such threats exist to those who donate to political parties, credit should be given to those who have the courage to participate fully in the democratic process as candidates and elected representatives, and perhaps we in this House do not give enough credit to those who sit with us in this Chamber and who take the most extraordinary risks in conditions that are frequently beyond the imagining of us on this side of the water. Many right hon. and hon. Members sitting here tonight have had very close personal experiences in that regard, so when we talk about the threat to donors let us also salute the courage of those who participate fully in the democratic process.

May I, in these brief remarks, say that I thought that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) showed his fine—I was going to say almost Jesuitical subtlety but he probably would not thank me for that—analysis of the situation when he referred to the need to advance incrementally and organically? It is one thing to legislate, but we cannot legislate for human behaviour; we cannot demand that people’s behaviour and instincts change, and that society and culture change, because a piece of law has been approved in this House. A cultural change, an organic change, has to take place, and that is, of necessity, a slow process; it is an incremental process. None of us disagrees with the desirability of the destination; we all want to be in that place. It is the road map and the route we are talking about today. In the particular circumstances of politics in Northern Ireland, proceeding festina lente—I hope hon. Members will forgive me a spot of Latin—should be our watchword on this occasion. In recognition of that, the proceeding slowly and cautiously option is by far the best one. I look forward to hearing from the Minister, possibly also on the subject of transparency of the Conservative party in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Donaldson]

Indeed. I do not know what affirmation new members of the Irish Senate make, but it is surely a contradiction for people to come to either of the Houses of Parliament here and affirm their allegiance to the United Kingdom, and then to go to the legislature of another country and affirm their allegiance to that country. That is why, on principle, we cannot accept the concept that a Member of the Parliament of another country could also be a member of either a devolved legislature in the United Kingdom or, indeed, of this Parliament.

[Ms Ritchie]

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and I firmly believe in one Member, one Chamber. I declare an interest as a former Member of, and Minister in, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, and also as a former district councillor in Northern Ireland. As such, I know very well that Members must serve only one Chamber if they are to do the job properly and adequately.

The proposal to extend this legislation to the upper chambers, the House of Lords and the Seanad in the Irish Parliament, has my full support. I believe that there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in contending that dual mandates must end while ignoring the practice in respect of other legislative bodies. The current approach is inconsistent, and leaves us with an untidy arrangement.

There was a period during the early years of the Assembly—back in 1998—when dual mandates were an important part of the political system, but given the changes in our political system in Northern Ireland and its evolving maturity over the past 15 years, there is clearly a different political climate as well as a different expectation on the part of the body politic. While I am not convinced that this legislative route is the most appropriate, the direction of travel is clear, and my party supports it.

As we move towards the new system, however, we must ask why we are preserving the practice in some arenas but not in others. Why are we creating this imbalance? I accept that the House of Lords operates differently because it has no constituencies, but the important point—emphasised a few minutes ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle—is that it is a legislative Chamber. If we are legislating to prevent people from being members of two different legislatures, that is exactly what we should do.

[Naomi Long]

Surely part of the rationale for the structure of the House of Lords is the fact that it can serve as a revising Chamber, and scrutinise legislation in a robust way, because its Members are not being lobbied by constituents as we in the House of Commons are when we are dealing with legislation. Could not an electoral mandate expose Members of the House of Lords to that kind of lobbying, and prevent them from acting as we expect a Lord to act?

[Ms Ritchie]

That was a useful intervention, because it illustrated the role of Members of the House of Lords. While they have clear legislative responsibilities, they also do very in-depth work. We can cast our minds back to the work done in respect of the Welfare Reform Bill, and its ping-pong nature, with the Bill going back and forth between us. Lords come from many varied backgrounds, but they do their work. The Lords may not be elected, but they do have legislative responsibilities, which naturally would clash with the responsibilities of an elected Chamber such as the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is the very problem that this measure is meant to address. I would not hold my breath about this House finally taking on the much-needed reform of the House of Lords, but if, and hopefully when, it does, would it be desirable that people can run for election and hold office, namely by having a dual mandate between the Assembly and an elected House of Lords?

It is important that this issue is sorted out now within the terms of the current Bill. I note that that position is supported by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. In so doing, we come to this issue with the premise of one Member, one Chamber. Having had the experience of serving in other Chambers, and knowing the extent and breadth and depth of work and investigative intelligence that is required of Members in all those Chambers, particularly in terms of legislation, we not only support our own amendment—amendment 20—but we also support those of the hon. Member for Belfast East.

[Mr Dodds]

On clause 3 and the ending of the dual mandate between Members of this House and Members of the Assembly, our party made it clear some time ago that we would be bringing this matter to the point that by 2015, as was recommended, dual mandates would be ended. We are working towards that, and it needs to be made very clear in this Committee tonight that this Bill does not end dual mandates; the parties in Northern Ireland are ending dual mandates, and they are doing so for the reasons that have been advanced, which are that we have now moved forward to a position where politics is much more stable, and the Assembly and the Executive are up and running. We are therefore in a very different position from the one we were in only a short time ago, when dual mandates were not only preferable, but essential, for the reasons laid out very clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and because of the leading political figures in this House who were playing the important—the crucial—role of bringing about peace, stability and devolution in Northern Ireland. That would not have worked if there had not been that dual mandate at that time; that is absolutely the case.

There is a tendency sometimes to look at situations from the perspective of today, rather than looking at the context of the time. I want to pay tribute to all Members who held dual mandates at that time. I want to do so not because I was one of those Members who held a dual mandate, but because they put themselves and their families under enormous stress and strain in terms of the work load, but still carried out an immensely powerful job, as was recognised through the votes of the people, who consistently voted for them. Therefore it is only right and proper to pay tribute to those politicians who did that in very difficult circumstances, and who had their pay cut, we must remember—it was not as if they were doing it for two salaries. It was done for the reasons set out, and also because, to return to an earlier discussion, there were very real threats against politicians, and not too many people were prepared to come forward and put their head above the parapet. Every Member in our party, and Members of other parties as well, including the SDLP and the Alliance, suffered very severe threats at that time, and actual attacks on their person, their offices and on people close to them. That was the reality of the situation we lived in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

I have listened carefully to the Minister. Clearly, the contribution from the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has been received warmly because we recognise the part he played as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and as Minister of State before that; he was widely praised for his efforts during his tenure, and we thank him.

There is a view across most of the parties in Northern Ireland, with the exception, I think, of Sinn Fein, that the Assembly is too big and should be reduced in size. Until we can get that cross-community support in the Assembly, we are where we are, but at least the Bill recognises movement, in that it makes this a reserve matter, rather than an excepted matter, and so puts it more within the Assembly’s bailiwick. Our view, in tabling the amendments, was that the more that was done, the better; it shows maturity and demonstrates that the Assembly is developing. It shows that issues such as the make-up of the Executive, how it is appointed and elected, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should all be more within the remit of the Assembly.

I have heard what the Minister has said, and I also heard his earlier comments that he was listening carefully to the matters being raised and would reflect upon them. In that spirit, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7

Extension of term of Assembly

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Ms Ritchie]

I approached clause 7 by way of a probing amendment that was not selected. I sought information on Second Reading about why the mandate of the current Assembly was being extended from a four-year term to a five-year term, given that the people of Northern Ireland voted for parties on the basis of four, not five years.

Many political representatives, including the current Secretary of State and the former Secretary of State, have stated that there is insufficient consensus on extending the term, while the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee compiled evidence that clearly suggested there was insufficient evidence and did not agree with extending the term to five years. I understand that three parties—at the centre, shall we say—supported extending the mandate: the Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Fein and the Alliance party. On the other hand, the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Ulster Unionist party did not.

I believe in democracy. Members were elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly on the basis of four, not five years. That is a very different position from that in Scotland and Wales. In November 2011, when people stood for election and sought mandates in Scotland and Wales, they did so on the basis that those terms would be five years. It was very different in Northern Ireland. I did not get that mystery unlocked on Second Reading, so I now ask the deputy Secretary of State if he will provide me with an explanation; I am sure he will be happy to do so.

[Mr Dodds]

I want briefly to put on record our view, which we also stated on Second Reading.

We believe that the argument for moving the date of the Assembly election is strong, not least because that is what is happening for Scotland and Wales. There is no logical, coherent reason at all to challenge the Government position—that we should also extend the mandate for the Northern Ireland Assembly by one year, to ensure that a Westminster election and an Assembly election are not held on the same day. That is important because they are probably the two most important elections that are held. Council elections are obviously significant, as are elections to the European Parliament, but when we are electing the legislature and the Executive for the Northern Ireland Assembly and also representatives in this House, it is inevitable that one of those elections would dominate the media and the political debate to the exclusion of the other, to a much greater extent than with other elections. For that reason, clause 7 is important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

We debated this matter extensively in the Second Reading debate, during which the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) referred to me as the deputy Secretary of State almost all the way through her contribution. I should have corrected her then, but I shall do so now. I am the Minister of State in the Northern Ireland Office, and I am very proud of that. I have never heard of a deputy Secretary of State. It might well have been corrected by Hansard, but I thought I would mention it anyway. I also fully acknowledge that I am not going to convince the hon. Lady that no conspiracy took place that suddenly made us change our mind on this matter. In fact, 70% of the MLAs asked us to move the election by one year to 2016.

[Ms Ritchie]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mike Penning]

I want to make a tiny bit of progress, if the hon. Lady does not mind.

As the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) suggested, we should never take anything for granted, but the provisions for the one-year extension and the five-year term should, in theory, keep the Assembly elections separate from the UK general elections. However, this is not set in stone, and nor is the five-year fixed term for this House. Parliament could dissolve and we could have an election here. That is a fact.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Ritchie]

rose—

[Mike Penning]

I will give way to the hon. Lady. I am being very rude, and I apologise.

[Ms Ritchie]

I am grateful to the Minister of State for giving way. Will he consider this possible evidence? The report from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on the draft Bill states:

“Nevertheless, we did not hear any compelling evidence to support this proposition.”

That is, the proposition to extend the mandate from four to five years. The report also states:

“We are concerned that extending the current term to 2016 would be contrary to the expectations of the electorate at the last Assembly election in 2011 and recommend, therefore, that the current Assembly term should end, as planned, in 2015.”

I would be obliged if he could explain why the proposals are now in the Bill.

[Mike Penning]

On this question, we disagreed with the Select Committee. We agreed with it on some things, and changed the draft legislation accordingly, but we did not agree with it on this matter.

[Mark Durkan]

rose—

[Ms Ritchie]

rose—

[Mike Penning]

I will not give way. I have finished speaking on clause 7, and I hope that the Committee will allow it to stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 7 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.



Clause 8

Appointment of Justice Minister

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Monday 24th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I would certainly agree that there are a number of reasons why there were more dual mandates in relation to Northern Ireland than for other parts of the United Kingdom. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there may have been justified reasons for that at the time. However, things have moved on, and it is a greater sign of normalisation that, arguably, what might have been a need or justification in the past is no longer relevant today.

In response to a recommendation on double-jobbing from the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, the Bill bans double-jobbing in the Assembly and the lower House of the Irish Parliament to maintain parity. I am grateful to the Committee for highlighting that issue.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Will the Secretary of State comment on double-jobbing between the Northern Ireland Assembly and the House of Lords, and double-jobbing in the Northern Ireland Assembly and Seanad Eireann, the upper House to the Dail?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I have said, we do not see the same pressing issues applying in relation to double-jobbing with the House of Lords, and that applies equally to the upper House of the Irish Parliament.

Clause 6 will enable the Assembly to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly, subject to consent from Westminster. There is widespread acceptance that Northern Ireland has high numbers of elected representatives. Scotland, with a population of just over 5 million elects 129 MSPs, but Northern Ireland elects 108 MLAs to represent just 1.8 million people. While there were perhaps good reasons for that when the institutions were set up, we feel that the case has now been made for change.

As yet, there is no cross-party agreement on the appropriate size of the reduction in the number of MLAs, and I certainly hope that Northern Ireland’s political leadership can reach a settled view on this as soon as possible. In the meantime, the Bill moves things forward by enabling such a reduction to take place without further primary legislation. The Bill also contains a number of provisions allowing us to update the rules on electoral administration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

This is a remarkable time for Northern Ireland and a good time for the House to discuss the Bill. The coverage of President Obama’s visit to Belfast last week and the sight of world leaders attending the G8 summit in Fermanagh were powerful, moving and hugely uplifting. Some 2,000 young people from schools across Northern Ireland were reminded that the future belongs to them and that it is their attitude and decisions that will take us forward. The President’s words will serve to inspire those in the Waterfront hall and far beyond to make rhetoric a reality and to deliver progress for the next generation.

From a Northern Ireland perspective, the G8 summit was everything we had all hoped it would be. I again congratulate the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister on their work and their foresight in deciding to hold such a prestigious international event in County Fermanagh. Indeed, the Prime Minister told us last week that each of the world leaders commented on how incredible it was that such a summit could take place in Northern Ireland, and in the most tranquil and beautiful surroundings of Lough Erne.

Thanks to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, their colleagues from other police forces in the UK, and An Garda Siochana, the G8 met safely and securely and the accompanying protests took place peacefully and respectfully. The people of Northern Ireland and their representatives in this House and in Stormont can rightly be proud of what that showed the world last week. I know that everyone in this House and right across the United Kingdom and Ireland share that pride and that sense of success and achievement. It is in that context that we are discussing the Bill today and not, as was so often the case before, in a time of crisis.

Of course, as the Secretary of State suggested, and as Members know, there is more to come. We are halfway through Derry/Londonderry’s year as UK city of culture. I spent a great weekend there at the start of this month, visiting the newly developed Tower museum, which charts the city’s incredible history, the London street art gallery, which showcases the work of emerging artists, a moving exhibition showing images of Derry during the troubles and the new Shirt Factory art project. I also attended my first Ulster championship Gaelic football match, between Down and Derry, although my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will remind me that I did not bring the home team much luck.

[Ms Ritchie]

My hon. Friend’s visit brought greater luck to me, as MP for South Down, because Down won that day, but unfortunately they did not win yesterday against Donegal. I look forward to the day when they will do better through the back-door mechanism.

[Vernon Coaker]

I hesitate to get involved in discussions about Gaelic football fixtures, but my next remark was going to be that the result will have pleased my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie).

Everyone knows that challenges remain and that there remains much work to be done. The threat from dissident republican groups remains high, and those who seek to destroy the peace and progress are still intent on carrying out their murderous activities. It is only the bravery, dedication and skill of the police, army technical officers and the security services that have prevented the terrorists from succeeding. The loyalist flag protests have shown that there is still work to be done, so we cannot be complacent. I join the First and Deputy First Ministers, the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable in calling for a calm and peaceful summer.

It is in that context that we are considering the Bill today. Let me say something I have said many times before: the Opposition are committed to working with the Government in a bipartisan way where possible. When we believe that the Government are acting in the best interests of Northern Ireland, we will support them. When we disagree, we have a duty to challenge them and hold them to account.

I must say that in some respects I am disappointed with the Bill, not so much because of what is in it, but because of what is not. “Miscellaneous” suggests that all that is needed is some tidying up by Westminster and that it is a case of putting forward some minor amendments and small adjustments. Indeed, most of the Bill’s provisions have been discussed with the Northern Ireland parties and command general, if not universal, support. In principle, we support the ending of dual mandates, the extension of the Assembly’s term—temporarily and then permanently—giving security of tenure to the Justice Minister and devolving power on the size of the Assembly. We want to move to full transparency and accountability in political donations. Clearly, we will look at the detail of all the proposals in Committee, but by and large they make sense.

However, the Secretary of State will know that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee at Stormont is looking at the size of the Assembly, the number of Executive Departments, designation, the composition of the Executive, and provision for opposition. These are difficult and sensitive issues. The principles of power sharing and inclusivity are fundamental, but there is an acceptance that the system could be improved and there are demands for more accountability and more rigorous scrutiny of the Executive.

As a precursor to the Bill, the previous Secretary of State last year launched a review of the operation of the Assembly during a speech in which he criticised the Assembly and the Executive. I said at the time that that criticism was largely unwarranted and unnecessary and suggested that the Government work in partnership with the Executive and the Assembly to look at how they and the Northern Ireland Office could work more effectively, individually and collectively. To be fair to the current Secretary of State, she has taken an approach more in line with that thinking. However, I worry that in some respects she has gone too far the other way and has not engaged with some of the issues.

I have said before that devolution should not mean disengagement. The Bill gives the House a chance to put its views appropriately and constructively and I hope that, as the debate goes through the House, the Government will reflect on how they could take that opportunity.

In replying to the debate, will the Minister of State tell us what discussions he has had on the progress of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee’s work? Have the Government had any requests from that body or the Executive for the inclusion of measures that have not been included in the Bill? These are difficult and challenging areas and it will be hard to find agreement, but I sense from everywhere that there is an increasing desire to make progress a little more quickly—something, as I have said, that will undoubtedly be discussed in Committee in more detail.

Many other issues affect people in Northern Ireland, of course, and there is demand for politicians here and in Stormont to concentrate on building jobs and growth, tackling youth unemployment and creating opportunity. Of course, there are also the continuing challenges in health, education and welfare. Many of the decisions are devolved, but there is a role for the House to play in supporting the Executive as they seek to build peace, progress and prosperity.

The Government should also remember that they have a huge responsibility for economic and welfare decisions that affect people in Northern Ireland just as much as they do people in Gedling, Chipping Barnet or Hemel Hempstead. Is there nothing that the Bill could have contained that looked at the impact of Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Government’s economic and welfare policies on Northern Ireland, given the particular circumstances of a society emerging from conflict?

We know also that great strides have been taken to encourage business, tourism and economic progress. Indeed, later this week, alongside the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) in his capacity as Finance Minister, I am meeting a range of business organisations, including the Federation of Small Businesses, the Northern Ireland chambers of commerce, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association and others, to take forward plans for a small business Saturday. We need to do all we can to help business and build prosperity in communities where there is a high level of economic inactivity and a lack of opportunities, which create such a sense of despair and hopelessness.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I welcome the opportunity to debate the principles of a Bill that will have a significant impact on the way in which our relatively immature democracy in Northern Ireland may develop in the years ahead. I fully acknowledge that we have travelled a considerable distance, and—as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)—in a very positive direction, but much work remains to be done.

We want to work with the Government to bring about the economic renewal of our local economy, and for that purpose we must consider a number of ways of rebalancing the economy. We are also concerned about the unfairness of many of the welfare reform proposals. We do not oppose the principle of welfare reform, but we do oppose a number of its probable consequences. Many people who are already disadvantaged will become even more disadvantaged, and many who are currently in work will find themselves out of work and, possibly, in a grave financial position.

Those are the challenges that face any Administration or Executive, and they also face the devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland. We want to work with the Government to meet those challenges. We also want to work with the Government, and with the Irish Government—they being the co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement—on proposals for a comprehensive reconciliation process, because that is one of the aspects of a divided society that has not yet been fully addressed.

I recall that several years ago, when I was a Minister in the Department for Social Development, there were proposals for shared housing and shared neighbourhoods. Some of us had already done a great deal of work on that—work that began a considerable time ago, not just a few weeks ago—when others had not bought into the process. I am glad to say that they have done so now, and I hope that our aims will be fulfilled. However, there is still much to be done to help victims, to produce a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, and to ensure that everyone fully embraces the concepts of equality and human rights.

There are undoubtedly some good things in the Bill. Progress has been made towards greater transparency in relation to political donations, and most of the political double-jobbing is to be terminated. The Bill also covers issues connected with electoral registration. I was glad to hear from the Minister that he intended to ensure that there would be a door-to-door canvass, and that money had been provided for the purpose. All of us, including the Government, should take a proactive approach to ensure that everyone has proper access to a franchise, and should encourage people—irrespective of the party for which they vote—to exercise their franchise. That is the only way of enabling them to have a say in the shaping of their local democracy and the democratic process.

There is one great mystery at the heart of the Bill, and I should like to get to the bottom of it. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide the answer to my question—in conjunction, obviously, with the Secretary of State. I refer to the proposal to extend the term of the Northern Ireland Assembly by a further year and to hold elections not in May 2015, the date presented to our electorate, but in May 2016. The Government appear to have performed a U-turn. Why the change? It is fundamental that such action should not be taken without the permission of the people, who gave the parties a mandate to govern for four years rather than five. Indeed, the Secretary of State’s consultation paper acknowledged that

“There are serious constitutional implications in extending the term of any elected body after it has been elected”,

and since then the Government have generally poured cold water on the extension proposition.

We have heard arguments about the need to bring Northern Ireland into line with the other devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, but they do not stack up. The Secretary of State’s consultation paper states:

“The Government does not believe that there needs to be uniformity across the…UK”.

More important is the fact that electors in Scotland and Wales knew before they voted that they would be electing Governments for an extended five-year term. In Northern Ireland, this is being imposed on people. The “conformity with Scotland and Wales” argument does not solve our mystery.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

The hon. Lady is elaborating on the fact that the term of the Assembly is being extended by a year, and that that is being done without asking people for their permission. Is she suggesting that there should be a referendum to ask people if they want to vote again before they have decided that they want to vote again? In what way should people be asked other than through their representatives here in Parliament?

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Member for East Derry for his intervention. [Interruption.] He knows perfectly well that we had a mandate, and that those of us who were elected to the Assembly—some of us are no longer there—had a contract with the population of Northern Ireland for four years, and not five years. I believe that we should not delude the public, but should conform to what was in our contract with them.

[Dr McCrea]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady has suggested that we should conform to the wishes of the general public. My hon. Friend was elected to a constituency in the House of Commons which is termed East Londonderry. Has any Member a right to change the name of my hon. Friend’s constituency? Is it in order?

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

With respect, the names of constituencies are set by legislation, not by what any one Member may say in the House. I repeat what I said a moment ago. This is a matter for debate, because it does not change the name of the constituency as laid down by Parliament.

[Ms Ritchie]

I accept the essence of the point of order. I acknowledge that the constituency is probably classified as Londonderry East, but my shorthand for it happens to be “East Derry”. I do not think that there is any particular difference of opinion. [Interruption.] May I continue?

There was the equally weak explanation that although doing so would save money, it would be unmanageable to hold two or three different elections on the same day. Wrong again! The Secretary of State’s consultation paper acknowledged that, if it was required—I quote for the purpose of accuracy and veracity—

“both the Chief Electoral Officer and Electoral Commission are confident that three polls can be delivered”.

So “administrative difficulty” does not solve the mystery.

Could it be that, while the Government’s consultation paper questioned the idea of extending the term of the Assembly, citing grounds of democratic legitimacy as well as questioning any practical need at all, the Government changed their mind as a result of the responses that they had received during the consultation exercise? Was the Secretary of State overwhelmed by consultees pressing for the extension of the life of the current Northern Ireland Assembly? No; that is not the answer either. Several political parties, including my own—the SDLP—and the Ulster Unionists, as well as the Green party, Conservatives and others, were emphatically against this anti-democratic proposal. The DUP and the Alliance were in favour of it, and Sinn Fein did not participate in the formal consultation exercise. Overall, of those consultees who responded directly on this question, 85% were against extending the Assembly term.

At this point the Secretary of State might say that a combination of the DUP, Sinn Fein and the Alliance can command a majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly, which represents broad support for the extension, but the Secretary of State has already acknowledged that she had a letter from those parties as far back as June 2012, some three months before she embarked on her consultation; she knew then that the leaders of those three parties all wanted to extend the life of the Assembly. Indeed, elsewhere in this Bill there are provisions aimed at correcting the anti-democratic nature of the Minister of Justice’s current position, which has already been referred to by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle. The Secretary of State already knew the views of these parties when she set the height of the bar that had to be cleared if the proposal to extend the term of the Assembly was to go anywhere.

In full knowledge of the views of the parties of the OFMDFM—the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister—the Secretary of State summarised the issue in February this year by saying:

“The Government has consistently made clear that any move to extend the length of the current term could only be made if there was a clearly demonstrable public benefit, and a very large measure of agreement in Northern Ireland.”

The Secretary of State further concluded that the responses to the consultation

“tend to suggest that there does not exist, as yet, significant agreement to this proposal.”

I am sure the Secretary of State would not disagree with what she said then.

That does not help us much with the solving of our mystery, however. The Secretary of State set a clear test of a

“very large measure of agreement”

and concluded that the agreement demonstrated so far had not been “significant”. So in February of this year, in full knowledge of the various political parties’ views on extension, the Secretary of State was against it. What changed?

The Secretary of State also set the test of a “demonstrable public benefit”, but there clearly is not one. OFMDFM Ministers can argue that five years might give the Executive more time to demonstrate its worth, but in fact the opposite is the case. The Secretary of State’s paper of February of this year commented on the “opinion frequently voiced” about

“the perceived inertia of the Assembly”

and concluded that

“extending the term would only add to this.”

In addition, the CBI expressed concern in its consultation response that, at the end of a four-year programme for government, an additional year could just be a year of unproductive drift. Indeed, the proposal to extend the term takes little account of the very significant public disbenefits of moving to 2016, such as having the election so close to the 100th anniversary of the Easter rising, when certain political extremists will try to raise, and then exploit, community tensions on the nationalist side. There are also sinister elements in loyalism that will try to do the same around the important world war one centenaries. That is not a great time to have an election for a fixed five-year term in a fragile democracy.

So, with no “large measure” of agreement and no “public benefit”, what could have made the Secretary of State change her mind? Could it have been the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee? After all, the views of the Committee on Standards in Public Life were given considerable weight in the Bill’s provisions on double-jobbing. No, however, it is not the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, because, as its Chairman, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), said earlier, it did not support the proposal to extend the term either. Indeed, when the Secretary of State met the Committee in March this year, she stated:

“But it is quite an unusual thing to do, and we would have to be clear about the benefits it would bring, the additional achievements that could be made by the Executive in that extra year, and also have a very clear case made publicly to that effect by the Northern Ireland political establishment.”

So even as late as March this year, the Secretary of State seemed to have no appetite for extending the term of the Northern Ireland Assembly, yet by 9 May, when this Bill was published with the explanatory document, all that had changed. All the consultation responses and the Secretary of State’s own decision criteria had been cast aside in just a few short weeks. What changed the mind of the Secretary of State remains a mystery, and it is a mystery that she must unlock; indeed, the Minister must unlock it here tonight, and it will need to be explored further in Committee.

I believe the decision to extend the Assembly term is an atrocious anti-democratic, and potentially dangerous, development, and flies in the face of most of what the Secretary of State has ever said on the issue. I can find no rational explanation for the change of heart in the Command Paper that was a response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee report. The Government do not provide much enlightenment in unlocking the mystery, except that they wish to be consistent with Scotland and Wales in extending the terms of the existing mandates. The Government and Secretary of State have ignored a vital point, however: that the people of Wales and Scotland were aware of the change to the fixed-term mandate before casting their votes in May 2011. The position in Northern Ireland was totally different. The people of Northern Ireland were not involved in this, and they voted for a four-year mandate. The only person who could do something to overrule the Secretary of State is the Prime Minister himself. Is a prime ministerial intervention the answer to our mystery?

So I put it to the Minister, who will be responding to the debate: how often, and when, did he and the Secretary of State discuss this matter with the Prime Minister? Did the Prime Minister direct the Secretary of State to concede the Assembly’s term extension to those who lobbied him for it? And we know who lobbied him for it: the DUP, Sinn Fein and the Alliance party. If he did, what explanation did he give? Can the Secretary of State, or the Minister of State, as it will be in this instance, tell me what impact this sordid U-turn had on the credibility of the Northern Ireland Office and will have on any future NIO consultations? What faith will the people of Northern Ireland have in such consultations? The NIO and the Secretary of State must never forget that she and her equivalent in the Irish Government are the custodians of the Good Friday agreement. [Interruption.] This is no laughing matter, because when we went to vote in the Assembly elections in 2011 we voted for a four-year mandate, so the people will feel duped. Given the weight of evidence against the extension of the Assembly’s term, surely there is some way in which the Government will be prepared to reconsider this fundamentally anti-democratic measure. Obviously we look forward to discussing the issue further in Committee—or perhaps we should start lobbying the Prime Minister.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Ritchie]

I wish to make a little more progress and then I would be happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he can provide the answer to this mystery, as it is important that we find a solution to it. We need to work closely together, in partnership, and we need to ensure that we are able to sustain and maintain our democratic integrity. That is done in the best interests of the wider population of Northern Ireland: not only do the people demand it, but they deserve it, because for many years we lived and worked in that divided society, which in many ways still exists. We were living in the cauldron of violence and terrorism, and that was wrong. I am glad to say that that is largely diminished and we must now move forward into a new scenario.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for Down South for giving way. She has discussed great concerns about the issue relating to the Assembly elections, but had she the same concerns about the change of time scale for the council elections? Did her party express concern when the time scale was changed?

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Obviously, we have been dealing with the review of public administration in the period of various Ministers, including at least three from the DUP when the RPA was being discussed.

[Mr Donaldson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Ritchie]

I have not finished this point and I wish to do so, if the right hon. Gentleman will let me. Obviously, there would be concerns, but I also know that it was the DUP and Sinn Fein that insisted that these arrangements for new councils be pushed ahead with—I know that from my colleague the Minister of the Environment.

[Mr Donaldson]

Of course, this is not without precedent because the Northern Ireland Assembly was elected in 1998 on a four-year mandate by the people but that was extended to 2003 with the full support and connivance of the very party that now protests against the very thing that it and the UUP supported back in 1998 to 2003. So it may be that the answer to the mystery is a bit closer to home.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I think that there have been some memory losses here. [Hon. Members: “Oh no.”] Oh yes, because I can well recall, as can my hon. Friends the Members for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) and for Foyle—the latter was Minister for Finance and Personnel and subsequently Deputy First Minister—the considerable periods of suspension, when the people of Northern Ireland suffered dreadfully as the DUP sat outside the Executive and did not participate.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The entire Chamber is debating this Bill, not just the hecklers in one corner of the Chamber. I would appreciate it if we could listen to each speaker courteously. Perhaps we will be able to stop the heckling now and continue with the point being made, bearing in mind that another debate is also scheduled for this evening.

[Ms Ritchie]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am mindful of your advice on this matter, so I will move towards a conclusion. We have had an interesting debate this evening on the issue.

Although I would like to see that mystery unlocked this evening, there is also a need for a wider conversation that addresses the next phase of devolution. There is a need to devolve telecommunications and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to Northern Ireland, and we must also consider the character of constitutional discussion and the requirements to secure and advance policing. I will never forget that the SDLP, along with the Ulster Unionists, brought about that change in policing. My party, many times, single-handedly worked to bring about that new dispensation in policing.

Justice must be discussed, as well as the rights and equality achievements of recent years, and we need a deeper recognition from London of the nature of the Northern Ireland economy. We require further debate about those issues—not reserved to certain individuals, but in this Chamber and with these Ministers—and about our welfare profile and the impact of welfare changes on the economy of Northern Ireland and on the general health and well-being of our local population, the potential for the bedroom tax and the geopolitical considerations of housing and social housing location in Northern Ireland. Above all, the unfinished work of reconciliation and healing must take place within the north, on the island and between Britain and Ireland, and we must consider how London can move away and move with the Irish Government to help us to address issues to do with the past.

It is important that we discuss all those issues within the emerging politics that are Northern Ireland and that are the island of Ireland. We all look forward to such a participative democracy on these issues and to getting answers about how the decisions were made about moving from four to five year mandates. The people did not elect Members to the Assembly for five years, but for four. As that is the kernel of the Bill, I feel that the people I represent deserve an answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)]

It is a privilege and an honour to wind up this debate, which so many people have taken part in. I think that I counted 16 hon. Members who participated, and that will now include me, with some 20 interventions, so there has been a lot of generosity.

At the outset, let me reiterate the points made about the G8 and say how proud I was as Minister of State to be at Aldergrove with the Lord Lieutenant for the arrival of the Heads of State and Prime Ministers and to be the greeter on the tarmac. It was an honour and a privilege to be able to welcome the eight biggest leaders of the world to Northern Ireland, and then to receive the sort of comments that I have been getting back, particularly in the past couple of days from the Japanese, who were here early, stayed in the centre of Belfast, and were simply thrilled. Many people had concerns before they came—I think that is understandable—but Northern Ireland has shown them the way forward.

I pay tribute to the work of the Northern Ireland police force and the other agencies, particularly the 3,800-plus police from Great Britain who volunteered to come over to be part of the G8 and make it such a safe event. We now look ahead to the world police and fire games and the marching season. Perhaps I am being slightly naive, but I am very positive and believe that even though we may have some difficulties throughout the summer, Northern Ireland wants to go forward, as we have been saying.

I was a little concerned when the drafting of the Bill took place. Putting the word “miscellaneous” in the title of a Bill means that we will have a very wide-ranging debate on lots of different things. We can have that wide-ranging debate in Committee, which will be on the Floor of the House for clauses 1 to 9. It is right and proper that the debate has the time that it needs not only here, but up on the Committee Corridor.

I will not go through every hon. Member who has spoken, which the shadow Minister did brilliantly. I thank him for his kind comments about the Secretary of State. Hopefully he will say nice things about me in the future, but I very much doubt it. We have had a wide-ranging debate, as is right. Many hon. Members do not agree with each other on certain issues to do with the Bill and with how Northern Ireland is progressing, but this is where such issues should be debated and thrashed out.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) said that this Bill might not be the right place to talk about victims. I tend to agree with him on that. We need to find a way in which that debate can take place, but this miscellaneous Bill might not be the right place. However, I will consider the amendments that are tabled.

The Government considered carefully what could be in the Bill as normalisation progresses. I agree with the many hon. Members who have said that we need to be careful. We do not want to lose what we have got by going too fast, but we do not want the situation to stagnate.

I am sorry if the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) feels that there has been some kind of conspiracy. I will not go as far as the shadow Minister. I assure her that not just the Secretary of State but the Government have looked carefully at extending the term. Having said that, I have had no conversations with the Prime Minister about it and I do not think that the Secretary of State has either, and she has sat through nearly the whole debate. The decision was made by us in the Northern Ireland Office and by the Government. I believe that extending the term to 2016 is right and proper. I hope and expect that the other devolved Assemblies will take that forward. A consultation did take place, but one large party did not take part in it. However, it did give its views to me and the Secretary of State.

[Ms Ritchie]

rose—

[Mike Penning]

I will not give way, because I have to sit down in the next few minutes, but there will be plenty of time to debate that matter in Committee, on Report and on Third Reading.

The Government are adamant that we want to move towards openness about donations to political parties. I think that everybody agrees that it would be wrong to bring that in retrospectively. We will not expose people who have already given donations in good faith to that.

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) said that there is no longer such a risk. I hope that I am summarising her comments correctly. All I can say is that every day, I consider appeals against refusals for close protection weapons and home protection, where the system has ruled that somebody does not need those things.

Northern Ireland

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

These matters are being thoroughly discussed between Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive and those in the Department for Work and Pensions, which remains anxious about and open to finding a solution that will work for the Executive.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Will the Secretary of State inform us about ongoing discussions between the Minister for Social Development in the Northern Ireland Executive and appropriate Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions on the issue of getting further flexibility to enable the people of Northern Ireland to deal with these cuts, which are the consequence of welfare reform?

[Mrs Villiers]

Those discussions are ongoing, and I am confident of a positive outcome from them. The hon. Lady will appreciate that a number of flexibilities have already been obtained from the DWP by Nelson McCausland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I welcome the motion, because I think that the House should remind itself occasionally that the hard-won peace—and political—settlement in Northern Ireland remains very much work in progress, and that, from the perspective of London, there is much more work to be done and more help to be given. I also remind myself that the motion gently invites criticism of those who should be making more progress and doing better—perhaps those who lead the Northern Ireland Executive; perhaps the British Government. However, if I offer criticism in my short speech, it is intended to be of the constructive variety, and I hope that I strike, overall, a positive note.

Northern Ireland has come a long way, from the constant, daily violence of my childhood, to a relative peace and some measure of political stability. However, it is some 15 years since the signing of the Good Friday agreement, and while people would have expected little more than that relative peace and some measure of political stability in the first, say, five years, there has been growing frustration about the fact that it is taking for ever for us to see the full promised peace dividend. I am thinking particularly of the economic dividend from peace, namely investment and jobs. I recall my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) saying that we must move from a peace process to a prosperity process. Where is the prosperity process in which the British Government should be engaging?

Although regionally Northern Ireland has always been a net beneficiary of any Treasury settlement, we here are not the most culpable when it comes to the vital process of economic rebalancing. Although we may have been slow to identify new revenue streams and capital receipts in the north of Ireland, it was the UK Government who reneged on their promise of a £20 billion capital programme which would, in part, have allowed the north to catch up on years of under-investment in productive infrastructure. Perhaps the Minister of State will respond to that point when he winds up.

Again, it was the UK Government who, having held out the prospect, reneged on the question of devolving corporation tax-varying powers to the Northern Ireland Executive, despite the fact that all five Government parties were in favour of it and were prepared to pay for it. I am sure all Northern Ireland Members would welcome an update on that potential economic dividend. Despite some local criticism, our Executive Ministers have put a lot of effort into visiting major, current and emerging economic powers in order to win jobs and investment for Northern Ireland, and they have done so against the challenge of worldwide economic recession, so if I had to apportion responsibility for the Northern Ireland economy failing to meet the expectations of our people, I would not start by blaming the Northern Ireland Executive. However, I do believe significant economic progress is possible—but that must be accompanied by greater political progress.

The Secretary of State herself has linked further economic support, through an economic package and enterprise zones, to greater progress toward a shared future. Although I hesitate to see that as a necessary connection, I agree that we have not done enough in that area. The recent report from the Community Relations Council highlighted that one of the failures of the Northern Ireland Executive was in not doing enough on a policy for cohesion, sharing and integration. We are still a divided society, and we must move towards living together, whether through shared housing or shared neighbourhoods.

There is no alternative to a shared future. Our system of power sharing was not designed so that Unionist Ministers would cater for Unionist citizens and nationalist Ministers would look after nationalists. It was created so that we would share Government in the north of Ireland and act in the interests of everyone. That was the promise and potential of the good Friday agreement, and in many ways it has not been lived up to. While I have commended the Northern Ireland Executive, and in particular the First and Deputy First Ministers, on the genuine efforts they have made to attract investment, they have not distinguished themselves in other areas. On the flags issue, I would hope the DUP could provide the kind of leadership that it has not provided so far, and on the issue of parading, the Unionist forum is not the answer.

I have a question for the Minister—who represents a Government who are co-guarantor with the Irish Government of the Good Friday agreement—about north-south institutions. The Northern Ireland Executive, and in particular the Department of Finance and Personnel, which is led by the DUP, have again dragged their feet over a central project. The Narrow Water bridge project has enormous economic potential, and not only for my constituency where it will be situated. It will be a bridge between Warrenpoint in County Down and Cooley in County Louth, but it will create enormous investment, trade and tourism opportunities for all of the island of Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland. Let us grasp this opportunity and make everybody realise it presents a win-win opportunity.

Sinn Fein cannot have an à la carte approach to supporting the police. It needs to support the police even when they act against criminal suspects who happen to be republicans.

What we need from the First and Deputy First Ministers is real leadership around areas of division. We cannot work effectively at the heart of Government yet be attacking the very institutions—the PSNI, the Parades Commission—that have been set up to deal collectively, and fairly, with divisive issues.

My party above all still retains its belief in the promise and potential of the Good Friday agreement, and we remain committed to a shared future where all the parties do their very best to deliver for all the people of the north, in every area of Government. There is no doubt that devolution needs to work better for all the people of Northern Ireland, and I believe there is a will to do that, so let everybody—all the parties and both Governments—get on with it. I can say that my party is committed to meeting that challenge. I hope others are, too.

Oral Answers to Questions

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman, who is a friend of mine, has adopted the Labour party “tax” mantra. This is not a tax. What we are trying to do is make the position fairer for all our constituents. It is true that capacity is an issue in Northern Ireland; the problem is that there are too many people in the wrong sort of housing, and we need to help them to get into the right sort.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Is the Minister aware that Northern Ireland has one of the highest levels of dependence on benefits in the United Kingdom, that a high proportion of its population have mental and physical disabilities, and that its provision for affordable child care is the lowest in the UK? Will he assist the efforts of the Minister in the devolved Department for Social Development—along with the Department for Work and Pensions—to secure mitigation measures other than those that have already been announced in relation to welfare reform in Northern Ireland?

[Mike Penning]

Of course I will continue to work closely with the Minister in the devolved Administration. However, the best way in which to help those who are receiving welfare benefits is to get them off benefits and into work as soon as possible.

Oral Answers to Questions

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

3. What discussions she has had with the Irish government on the recent violence in Belfast.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I have been in regular contact with the Tanaiste, Eamon Gilmore, in recent weeks. Last Thursday, we met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Belfast to discuss various matters, including recent violence and disorder.

[Ms Ritchie]

As well as discussing the violence, has the Secretary of State any plans to discuss the question of a border poll with Dublin and, in particular, the Social Democratic and Labour party’s idea of a long-term financial support framework for Northern Ireland, agreed between London and Dublin, which would survive future constitutional change while, over time, reducing the north’s net dependency on the Treasury? Will she meet my party to discuss such proposals?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am certainly happy to meet the hon. Lady and her party colleagues. I have not discussed a border poll with Eamon Gilmore recently. My feeling is that the conditions that require a border poll are certainly not present in Northern Ireland, and we have no plans to call one at the moment.

Northern Ireland

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I welcome that firm statement, which I am sure that everyone will endorse. Such decisions need to be taken on the basis of democracy and consent, and indeed decisions on matters as sensitive as flags need to be taken after calm reflection. It is important that a real effort is made to take into account the concerns of people right across the community. There is a way forward. Northern Ireland has demonstrated that it can resolve seemingly intractable problems that have divided people for 800 years, so I am sure that they can find a sensible way forward on flags as well.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. In condemning the levels of unrest on the streets of Belfast and the assault on democracy and on our hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and others across Northern Ireland over the past few days, does she agree that parties that agreed to designated days for flying the Union flag at Stormont should not have exaggerated the significance of having the same policy at Belfast city hall and that the consequences of such agitation, including the distribution of inappropriate literature door to door in east Belfast, have contributed considerably to the unrest on the streets?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I have said, the important approach is to recognise that those decisions are very sensitive and that different people in Northern Ireland view flags in completely different ways. I think that the guiding principle should always be that those decisions should be taken with care and thought after dialogue and with a mind on the impact on community relations and an understanding of their impact on people who have different views right across the community.