Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nigel Mills
I bow to the hon. Gentleman’s expertise, but surely he agrees that such people can choose whether to donate a large amount to a party. If my amendment were passed, they could still donate £7,499 every year without their names being published. Surely he agrees that a donation can reach such a level that the donor must accept that it should be subject to transparency, because of the amount of influence that that donor might be exerting. The amendment provides that, in just over 14 months’ time, any donation that exceeds £7,500 will be made public. That would give an individual 14 months in which to make any large donation to a party that he or she wished to make—without the information being published—which would presumably tide the party over.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
This topic is very important to those of us who are involved in the political process in Northern Ireland. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is necessary to balance the security risk against the public good, and that in this instance the public want transparency and accountability in politics?
Nigel Mills
Yes. I made that point at the outset. The need for absolute security must be balanced against the need for transparency, and I decided that the level at which the balance tilted towards transparency was £7,500. The hon. Lady might choose a different figure, but there must be a point at which donations are seen to buy influence, and the details should therefore be published.
The leader of the hon. Lady’s party gave some of the most compelling evidence to the Select Committee. He said that his big fear was that if a small business man gave £1,000 to his, and her, party, another party might knock on the door and demand £2,000, because that business man was clearly willing to donate. I think that there is a risk at that level. That is why I did not table an amendment proposing that all donations should be made public, and I think that that is why the Select Committee recommended the £7,500 threshold as well.
Fifteen years after the Good Friday agreement, with all the progress that has been made, can we really justify maintaining the secrecy of all the large political donations to Northern Ireland parties when in the rest of the UK we have the publication of much smaller donations with no trouble? We accept that there is a unique situation in Northern Ireland. The security situation there is clearly different from what those of us representing seats in the mainland face, but for how many more years can we tolerate there not being this transparency in politics in the UK?
The Temporary Chairman (Mr Philip Hollobone)
The hon. Lady has been very patient, and now her moment has arrived.
Ms Ritchie
Thank you, Mr Hollobone. I wish to speak to amendments 7 and 8 and amendment 6.
Given that we are living in a more normal society in Northern Ireland—although the degree of that normality varies, and we have seen it ebb and flow over the last few months—I believe that the anonymity relating to donations could now be lifted, not necessarily next October but perhaps at an earlier date, as suggested by the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills).
I cannot disagree with what I understand to be the intended purpose of the amendments. It is important that, in trying to achieve a greater level of political maturity and in the practice of politics generally, we strive to achieve the highest standards of public life, whether we are serving our constituents or executing our parliamentary duties here at Westminster and in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The public ask us to serve them, and the duty to serve them is in our contract with them when we are elected as members of political parties. The electorate rightly demand from us the highest standards in public office in the execution of that contract, and it is important for the guiding principles of transparency, openness and accountability to constitute not just the pillars on which our fledgling democracy is built, but the rules that govern donations to political parties serving us in public life and wider civic society.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I acknowledge that there may be concern about security issues—concern that was expressed by the leader of our party when he gave evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. There is a need to protect donors, because some of them—and some parties —fear that they may might be at risk from a terrorist or other threat. However, if we have learned anything over the last few months—and over the last few days, when television programmes have contained revelations about alleged political interference in certain bodies—it is the importance of giving some form of resilience and confidence to the public.
In that respect, I do not have any problem in supporting the amendments of the hon. Member for Belfast East, although it will not come as a surprise to learn that I do not support the amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) because like my party colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I believe we live in the island of Ireland. I believe that fervently as a democratic Irish nationalist, but notwithstanding that, I represent a border constituency, and many people at the southern end of it daily travel to places of employment in County Louth. They pay taxes sometimes in both the north of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They also have their children educated in the north, and they buy goods and services in the south and the north. There is that exchange of ideas and people. They view people in County Louth, albeit it is in the south of Ireland—in the Republic of Ireland, a different jurisdiction—as their neighbours and friends. In those circumstances, with that exchange of people and ideas, I cannot support this amendment. I am sure DUP Members will perfectly understand where the parliamentary party of the SDLP is coming from in that respect.
I also believe that we need to see progress on a whole range of matters, however. Mr Haass has been appointed today to chair the all-party talks on flags and emblems and reconciliation. It is important that we move towards that in the next phase of devolution so we can see the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement, including support from the British Government for a Bill of Rights that is dedicated to the needs and requirements of Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
May we clarify one little point of conflict between the hon. Lady and her colleague, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)? He supported the thrust of the amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), but he suggested that January was a bit too soon and perhaps the tax year would be better. However, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) has just said she supports the amendments of the hon. Member for Belfast East, so is it January, or is it March and the tax year, or has the hon. Member for South Down got further ideas?
Ms Ritchie
It was my very clear understanding that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle said that if the hon. Member for Belfast East were to press her amendment to a Division, he, like me, would support her—although I think I might be a Teller in such a Division. We in the SDLP believe that there is a need to move towards greater transparency and accountability. That can be balanced against the political progress we are making in the interests of the public good and, above all, the wider needs of society in Northern Ireland, because the experience of the last few weeks tells us that the public want politics to move in that direction. They want us, while serving them, to exercise our job in the right and proper and accountable manner.
Stephen Pound
We have heard a great deal this evening about the threats and dangers that could possibly be attracted to party political donors. It is perhaps salutary to mention that if such threats exist to those who donate to political parties, credit should be given to those who have the courage to participate fully in the democratic process as candidates and elected representatives, and perhaps we in this House do not give enough credit to those who sit with us in this Chamber and who take the most extraordinary risks in conditions that are frequently beyond the imagining of us on this side of the water. Many right hon. and hon. Members sitting here tonight have had very close personal experiences in that regard, so when we talk about the threat to donors let us also salute the courage of those who participate fully in the democratic process.
May I, in these brief remarks, say that I thought that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) showed his fine—I was going to say almost Jesuitical subtlety but he probably would not thank me for that—analysis of the situation when he referred to the need to advance incrementally and organically? It is one thing to legislate, but we cannot legislate for human behaviour; we cannot demand that people’s behaviour and instincts change, and that society and culture change, because a piece of law has been approved in this House. A cultural change, an organic change, has to take place, and that is, of necessity, a slow process; it is an incremental process. None of us disagrees with the desirability of the destination; we all want to be in that place. It is the road map and the route we are talking about today. In the particular circumstances of politics in Northern Ireland, proceeding festina lente—I hope hon. Members will forgive me a spot of Latin—should be our watchword on this occasion. In recognition of that, the proceeding slowly and cautiously option is by far the best one. I look forward to hearing from the Minister, possibly also on the subject of transparency of the Conservative party in Northern Ireland.
Mr Donaldson
Indeed. I do not know what affirmation new members of the Irish Senate make, but it is surely a contradiction for people to come to either of the Houses of Parliament here and affirm their allegiance to the United Kingdom, and then to go to the legislature of another country and affirm their allegiance to that country. That is why, on principle, we cannot accept the concept that a Member of the Parliament of another country could also be a member of either a devolved legislature in the United Kingdom or, indeed, of this Parliament.
Ms Ritchie
The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and I firmly believe in one Member, one Chamber. I declare an interest as a former Member of, and Minister in, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, and also as a former district councillor in Northern Ireland. As such, I know very well that Members must serve only one Chamber if they are to do the job properly and adequately.
The proposal to extend this legislation to the upper chambers, the House of Lords and the Seanad in the Irish Parliament, has my full support. I believe that there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in contending that dual mandates must end while ignoring the practice in respect of other legislative bodies. The current approach is inconsistent, and leaves us with an untidy arrangement.
There was a period during the early years of the Assembly—back in 1998—when dual mandates were an important part of the political system, but given the changes in our political system in Northern Ireland and its evolving maturity over the past 15 years, there is clearly a different political climate as well as a different expectation on the part of the body politic. While I am not convinced that this legislative route is the most appropriate, the direction of travel is clear, and my party supports it.
As we move towards the new system, however, we must ask why we are preserving the practice in some arenas but not in others. Why are we creating this imbalance? I accept that the House of Lords operates differently because it has no constituencies, but the important point—emphasised a few minutes ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle—is that it is a legislative Chamber. If we are legislating to prevent people from being members of two different legislatures, that is exactly what we should do.
Naomi Long
Surely part of the rationale for the structure of the House of Lords is the fact that it can serve as a revising Chamber, and scrutinise legislation in a robust way, because its Members are not being lobbied by constituents as we in the House of Commons are when we are dealing with legislation. Could not an electoral mandate expose Members of the House of Lords to that kind of lobbying, and prevent them from acting as we expect a Lord to act?
Ms Ritchie
That was a useful intervention, because it illustrated the role of Members of the House of Lords. While they have clear legislative responsibilities, they also do very in-depth work. We can cast our minds back to the work done in respect of the Welfare Reform Bill, and its ping-pong nature, with the Bill going back and forth between us. Lords come from many varied backgrounds, but they do their work. The Lords may not be elected, but they do have legislative responsibilities, which naturally would clash with the responsibilities of an elected Chamber such as the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is the very problem that this measure is meant to address. I would not hold my breath about this House finally taking on the much-needed reform of the House of Lords, but if, and hopefully when, it does, would it be desirable that people can run for election and hold office, namely by having a dual mandate between the Assembly and an elected House of Lords?
It is important that this issue is sorted out now within the terms of the current Bill. I note that that position is supported by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. In so doing, we come to this issue with the premise of one Member, one Chamber. Having had the experience of serving in other Chambers, and knowing the extent and breadth and depth of work and investigative intelligence that is required of Members in all those Chambers, particularly in terms of legislation, we not only support our own amendment—amendment 20—but we also support those of the hon. Member for Belfast East.
Mr Dodds
On clause 3 and the ending of the dual mandate between Members of this House and Members of the Assembly, our party made it clear some time ago that we would be bringing this matter to the point that by 2015, as was recommended, dual mandates would be ended. We are working towards that, and it needs to be made very clear in this Committee tonight that this Bill does not end dual mandates; the parties in Northern Ireland are ending dual mandates, and they are doing so for the reasons that have been advanced, which are that we have now moved forward to a position where politics is much more stable, and the Assembly and the Executive are up and running. We are therefore in a very different position from the one we were in only a short time ago, when dual mandates were not only preferable, but essential, for the reasons laid out very clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and because of the leading political figures in this House who were playing the important—the crucial—role of bringing about peace, stability and devolution in Northern Ireland. That would not have worked if there had not been that dual mandate at that time; that is absolutely the case.
There is a tendency sometimes to look at situations from the perspective of today, rather than looking at the context of the time. I want to pay tribute to all Members who held dual mandates at that time. I want to do so not because I was one of those Members who held a dual mandate, but because they put themselves and their families under enormous stress and strain in terms of the work load, but still carried out an immensely powerful job, as was recognised through the votes of the people, who consistently voted for them. Therefore it is only right and proper to pay tribute to those politicians who did that in very difficult circumstances, and who had their pay cut, we must remember—it was not as if they were doing it for two salaries. It was done for the reasons set out, and also because, to return to an earlier discussion, there were very real threats against politicians, and not too many people were prepared to come forward and put their head above the parapet. Every Member in our party, and Members of other parties as well, including the SDLP and the Alliance, suffered very severe threats at that time, and actual attacks on their person, their offices and on people close to them. That was the reality of the situation we lived in.
Mr Dodds
I have listened carefully to the Minister. Clearly, the contribution from the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has been received warmly because we recognise the part he played as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and as Minister of State before that; he was widely praised for his efforts during his tenure, and we thank him.
There is a view across most of the parties in Northern Ireland, with the exception, I think, of Sinn Fein, that the Assembly is too big and should be reduced in size. Until we can get that cross-community support in the Assembly, we are where we are, but at least the Bill recognises movement, in that it makes this a reserve matter, rather than an excepted matter, and so puts it more within the Assembly’s bailiwick. Our view, in tabling the amendments, was that the more that was done, the better; it shows maturity and demonstrates that the Assembly is developing. It shows that issues such as the make-up of the Executive, how it is appointed and elected, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should all be more within the remit of the Assembly.
I have heard what the Minister has said, and I also heard his earlier comments that he was listening carefully to the matters being raised and would reflect upon them. In that spirit, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Extension of term of Assembly
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Ms Ritchie
I approached clause 7 by way of a probing amendment that was not selected. I sought information on Second Reading about why the mandate of the current Assembly was being extended from a four-year term to a five-year term, given that the people of Northern Ireland voted for parties on the basis of four, not five years.
Many political representatives, including the current Secretary of State and the former Secretary of State, have stated that there is insufficient consensus on extending the term, while the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee compiled evidence that clearly suggested there was insufficient evidence and did not agree with extending the term to five years. I understand that three parties—at the centre, shall we say—supported extending the mandate: the Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Fein and the Alliance party. On the other hand, the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Ulster Unionist party did not.
I believe in democracy. Members were elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly on the basis of four, not five years. That is a very different position from that in Scotland and Wales. In November 2011, when people stood for election and sought mandates in Scotland and Wales, they did so on the basis that those terms would be five years. It was very different in Northern Ireland. I did not get that mystery unlocked on Second Reading, so I now ask the deputy Secretary of State if he will provide me with an explanation; I am sure he will be happy to do so.
Mr Dodds
I want briefly to put on record our view, which we also stated on Second Reading.
We believe that the argument for moving the date of the Assembly election is strong, not least because that is what is happening for Scotland and Wales. There is no logical, coherent reason at all to challenge the Government position—that we should also extend the mandate for the Northern Ireland Assembly by one year, to ensure that a Westminster election and an Assembly election are not held on the same day. That is important because they are probably the two most important elections that are held. Council elections are obviously significant, as are elections to the European Parliament, but when we are electing the legislature and the Executive for the Northern Ireland Assembly and also representatives in this House, it is inevitable that one of those elections would dominate the media and the political debate to the exclusion of the other, to a much greater extent than with other elections. For that reason, clause 7 is important.
Mike Penning
We debated this matter extensively in the Second Reading debate, during which the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) referred to me as the deputy Secretary of State almost all the way through her contribution. I should have corrected her then, but I shall do so now. I am the Minister of State in the Northern Ireland Office, and I am very proud of that. I have never heard of a deputy Secretary of State. It might well have been corrected by Hansard, but I thought I would mention it anyway. I also fully acknowledge that I am not going to convince the hon. Lady that no conspiracy took place that suddenly made us change our mind on this matter. In fact, 70% of the MLAs asked us to move the election by one year to 2016.
Mike Penning
I want to make a tiny bit of progress, if the hon. Lady does not mind.
As the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) suggested, we should never take anything for granted, but the provisions for the one-year extension and the five-year term should, in theory, keep the Assembly elections separate from the UK general elections. However, this is not set in stone, and nor is the five-year fixed term for this House. Parliament could dissolve and we could have an election here. That is a fact.
Mike Penning
I will give way to the hon. Lady. I am being very rude, and I apologise.
Ms Ritchie
I am grateful to the Minister of State for giving way. Will he consider this possible evidence? The report from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on the draft Bill states:
“Nevertheless, we did not hear any compelling evidence to support this proposition.”
That is, the proposition to extend the mandate from four to five years. The report also states:
“We are concerned that extending the current term to 2016 would be contrary to the expectations of the electorate at the last Assembly election in 2011 and recommend, therefore, that the current Assembly term should end, as planned, in 2015.”
I would be obliged if he could explain why the proposals are now in the Bill.
Mike Penning
On this question, we disagreed with the Select Committee. We agreed with it on some things, and changed the draft legislation accordingly, but we did not agree with it on this matter.
Mike Penning
I will not give way. I have finished speaking on clause 7, and I hope that the Committee will allow it to stand part of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 7 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 8
Appointment of Justice Minister
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
I would certainly agree that there are a number of reasons why there were more dual mandates in relation to Northern Ireland than for other parts of the United Kingdom. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there may have been justified reasons for that at the time. However, things have moved on, and it is a greater sign of normalisation that, arguably, what might have been a need or justification in the past is no longer relevant today.
In response to a recommendation on double-jobbing from the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, the Bill bans double-jobbing in the Assembly and the lower House of the Irish Parliament to maintain parity. I am grateful to the Committee for highlighting that issue.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Will the Secretary of State comment on double-jobbing between the Northern Ireland Assembly and the House of Lords, and double-jobbing in the Northern Ireland Assembly and Seanad Eireann, the upper House to the Dail?
Mrs Villiers
As I have said, we do not see the same pressing issues applying in relation to double-jobbing with the House of Lords, and that applies equally to the upper House of the Irish Parliament.
Clause 6 will enable the Assembly to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly, subject to consent from Westminster. There is widespread acceptance that Northern Ireland has high numbers of elected representatives. Scotland, with a population of just over 5 million elects 129 MSPs, but Northern Ireland elects 108 MLAs to represent just 1.8 million people. While there were perhaps good reasons for that when the institutions were set up, we feel that the case has now been made for change.
As yet, there is no cross-party agreement on the appropriate size of the reduction in the number of MLAs, and I certainly hope that Northern Ireland’s political leadership can reach a settled view on this as soon as possible. In the meantime, the Bill moves things forward by enabling such a reduction to take place without further primary legislation. The Bill also contains a number of provisions allowing us to update the rules on electoral administration.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
This is a remarkable time for Northern Ireland and a good time for the House to discuss the Bill. The coverage of President Obama’s visit to Belfast last week and the sight of world leaders attending the G8 summit in Fermanagh were powerful, moving and hugely uplifting. Some 2,000 young people from schools across Northern Ireland were reminded that the future belongs to them and that it is their attitude and decisions that will take us forward. The President’s words will serve to inspire those in the Waterfront hall and far beyond to make rhetoric a reality and to deliver progress for the next generation.
From a Northern Ireland perspective, the G8 summit was everything we had all hoped it would be. I again congratulate the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister on their work and their foresight in deciding to hold such a prestigious international event in County Fermanagh. Indeed, the Prime Minister told us last week that each of the world leaders commented on how incredible it was that such a summit could take place in Northern Ireland, and in the most tranquil and beautiful surroundings of Lough Erne.
Thanks to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, their colleagues from other police forces in the UK, and An Garda Siochana, the G8 met safely and securely and the accompanying protests took place peacefully and respectfully. The people of Northern Ireland and their representatives in this House and in Stormont can rightly be proud of what that showed the world last week. I know that everyone in this House and right across the United Kingdom and Ireland share that pride and that sense of success and achievement. It is in that context that we are discussing the Bill today and not, as was so often the case before, in a time of crisis.
Of course, as the Secretary of State suggested, and as Members know, there is more to come. We are halfway through Derry/Londonderry’s year as UK city of culture. I spent a great weekend there at the start of this month, visiting the newly developed Tower museum, which charts the city’s incredible history, the London street art gallery, which showcases the work of emerging artists, a moving exhibition showing images of Derry during the troubles and the new Shirt Factory art project. I also attended my first Ulster championship Gaelic football match, between Down and Derry, although my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will remind me that I did not bring the home team much luck.
Ms Ritchie
My hon. Friend’s visit brought greater luck to me, as MP for South Down, because Down won that day, but unfortunately they did not win yesterday against Donegal. I look forward to the day when they will do better through the back-door mechanism.
Vernon Coaker
I hesitate to get involved in discussions about Gaelic football fixtures, but my next remark was going to be that the result will have pleased my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie).
Everyone knows that challenges remain and that there remains much work to be done. The threat from dissident republican groups remains high, and those who seek to destroy the peace and progress are still intent on carrying out their murderous activities. It is only the bravery, dedication and skill of the police, army technical officers and the security services that have prevented the terrorists from succeeding. The loyalist flag protests have shown that there is still work to be done, so we cannot be complacent. I join the First and Deputy First Ministers, the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable in calling for a calm and peaceful summer.
It is in that context that we are considering the Bill today. Let me say something I have said many times before: the Opposition are committed to working with the Government in a bipartisan way where possible. When we believe that the Government are acting in the best interests of Northern Ireland, we will support them. When we disagree, we have a duty to challenge them and hold them to account.
I must say that in some respects I am disappointed with the Bill, not so much because of what is in it, but because of what is not. “Miscellaneous” suggests that all that is needed is some tidying up by Westminster and that it is a case of putting forward some minor amendments and small adjustments. Indeed, most of the Bill’s provisions have been discussed with the Northern Ireland parties and command general, if not universal, support. In principle, we support the ending of dual mandates, the extension of the Assembly’s term—temporarily and then permanently—giving security of tenure to the Justice Minister and devolving power on the size of the Assembly. We want to move to full transparency and accountability in political donations. Clearly, we will look at the detail of all the proposals in Committee, but by and large they make sense.
However, the Secretary of State will know that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee at Stormont is looking at the size of the Assembly, the number of Executive Departments, designation, the composition of the Executive, and provision for opposition. These are difficult and sensitive issues. The principles of power sharing and inclusivity are fundamental, but there is an acceptance that the system could be improved and there are demands for more accountability and more rigorous scrutiny of the Executive.
As a precursor to the Bill, the previous Secretary of State last year launched a review of the operation of the Assembly during a speech in which he criticised the Assembly and the Executive. I said at the time that that criticism was largely unwarranted and unnecessary and suggested that the Government work in partnership with the Executive and the Assembly to look at how they and the Northern Ireland Office could work more effectively, individually and collectively. To be fair to the current Secretary of State, she has taken an approach more in line with that thinking. However, I worry that in some respects she has gone too far the other way and has not engaged with some of the issues.
I have said before that devolution should not mean disengagement. The Bill gives the House a chance to put its views appropriately and constructively and I hope that, as the debate goes through the House, the Government will reflect on how they could take that opportunity.
In replying to the debate, will the Minister of State tell us what discussions he has had on the progress of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee’s work? Have the Government had any requests from that body or the Executive for the inclusion of measures that have not been included in the Bill? These are difficult and challenging areas and it will be hard to find agreement, but I sense from everywhere that there is an increasing desire to make progress a little more quickly—something, as I have said, that will undoubtedly be discussed in Committee in more detail.
Many other issues affect people in Northern Ireland, of course, and there is demand for politicians here and in Stormont to concentrate on building jobs and growth, tackling youth unemployment and creating opportunity. Of course, there are also the continuing challenges in health, education and welfare. Many of the decisions are devolved, but there is a role for the House to play in supporting the Executive as they seek to build peace, progress and prosperity.
The Government should also remember that they have a huge responsibility for economic and welfare decisions that affect people in Northern Ireland just as much as they do people in Gedling, Chipping Barnet or Hemel Hempstead. Is there nothing that the Bill could have contained that looked at the impact of Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Government’s economic and welfare policies on Northern Ireland, given the particular circumstances of a society emerging from conflict?
We know also that great strides have been taken to encourage business, tourism and economic progress. Indeed, later this week, alongside the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) in his capacity as Finance Minister, I am meeting a range of business organisations, including the Federation of Small Businesses, the Northern Ireland chambers of commerce, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association and others, to take forward plans for a small business Saturday. We need to do all we can to help business and build prosperity in communities where there is a high level of economic inactivity and a lack of opportunities, which create such a sense of despair and hopelessness.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I welcome the opportunity to debate the principles of a Bill that will have a significant impact on the way in which our relatively immature democracy in Northern Ireland may develop in the years ahead. I fully acknowledge that we have travelled a considerable distance, and—as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)—in a very positive direction, but much work remains to be done.
We want to work with the Government to bring about the economic renewal of our local economy, and for that purpose we must consider a number of ways of rebalancing the economy. We are also concerned about the unfairness of many of the welfare reform proposals. We do not oppose the principle of welfare reform, but we do oppose a number of its probable consequences. Many people who are already disadvantaged will become even more disadvantaged, and many who are currently in work will find themselves out of work and, possibly, in a grave financial position.
Those are the challenges that face any Administration or Executive, and they also face the devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland. We want to work with the Government to meet those challenges. We also want to work with the Government, and with the Irish Government—they being the co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement—on proposals for a comprehensive reconciliation process, because that is one of the aspects of a divided society that has not yet been fully addressed.
I recall that several years ago, when I was a Minister in the Department for Social Development, there were proposals for shared housing and shared neighbourhoods. Some of us had already done a great deal of work on that—work that began a considerable time ago, not just a few weeks ago—when others had not bought into the process. I am glad to say that they have done so now, and I hope that our aims will be fulfilled. However, there is still much to be done to help victims, to produce a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, and to ensure that everyone fully embraces the concepts of equality and human rights.
There are undoubtedly some good things in the Bill. Progress has been made towards greater transparency in relation to political donations, and most of the political double-jobbing is to be terminated. The Bill also covers issues connected with electoral registration. I was glad to hear from the Minister that he intended to ensure that there would be a door-to-door canvass, and that money had been provided for the purpose. All of us, including the Government, should take a proactive approach to ensure that everyone has proper access to a franchise, and should encourage people—irrespective of the party for which they vote—to exercise their franchise. That is the only way of enabling them to have a say in the shaping of their local democracy and the democratic process.
There is one great mystery at the heart of the Bill, and I should like to get to the bottom of it. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide the answer to my question—in conjunction, obviously, with the Secretary of State. I refer to the proposal to extend the term of the Northern Ireland Assembly by a further year and to hold elections not in May 2015, the date presented to our electorate, but in May 2016. The Government appear to have performed a U-turn. Why the change? It is fundamental that such action should not be taken without the permission of the people, who gave the parties a mandate to govern for four years rather than five. Indeed, the Secretary of State’s consultation paper acknowledged that
“There are serious constitutional implications in extending the term of any elected body after it has been elected”,
and since then the Government have generally poured cold water on the extension proposition.
We have heard arguments about the need to bring Northern Ireland into line with the other devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, but they do not stack up. The Secretary of State’s consultation paper states:
“The Government does not believe that there needs to be uniformity across the…UK”.
More important is the fact that electors in Scotland and Wales knew before they voted that they would be electing Governments for an extended five-year term. In Northern Ireland, this is being imposed on people. The “conformity with Scotland and Wales” argument does not solve our mystery.
Mr Gregory Campbell
The hon. Lady is elaborating on the fact that the term of the Assembly is being extended by a year, and that that is being done without asking people for their permission. Is she suggesting that there should be a referendum to ask people if they want to vote again before they have decided that they want to vote again? In what way should people be asked other than through their representatives here in Parliament?
Ms Ritchie
I thank the hon. Member for East Derry for his intervention. [Interruption.] He knows perfectly well that we had a mandate, and that those of us who were elected to the Assembly—some of us are no longer there—had a contract with the population of Northern Ireland for four years, and not five years. I believe that we should not delude the public, but should conform to what was in our contract with them.
Dr McCrea
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady has suggested that we should conform to the wishes of the general public. My hon. Friend was elected to a constituency in the House of Commons which is termed East Londonderry. Has any Member a right to change the name of my hon. Friend’s constituency? Is it in order?
Madam Deputy Speaker
With respect, the names of constituencies are set by legislation, not by what any one Member may say in the House. I repeat what I said a moment ago. This is a matter for debate, because it does not change the name of the constituency as laid down by Parliament.
Ms Ritchie
I accept the essence of the point of order. I acknowledge that the constituency is probably classified as Londonderry East, but my shorthand for it happens to be “East Derry”. I do not think that there is any particular difference of opinion. [Interruption.] May I continue?
There was the equally weak explanation that although doing so would save money, it would be unmanageable to hold two or three different elections on the same day. Wrong again! The Secretary of State’s consultation paper acknowledged that, if it was required—I quote for the purpose of accuracy and veracity—
“both the Chief Electoral Officer and Electoral Commission are confident that three polls can be delivered”.
So “administrative difficulty” does not solve the mystery.
Could it be that, while the Government’s consultation paper questioned the idea of extending the term of the Assembly, citing grounds of democratic legitimacy as well as questioning any practical need at all, the Government changed their mind as a result of the responses that they had received during the consultation exercise? Was the Secretary of State overwhelmed by consultees pressing for the extension of the life of the current Northern Ireland Assembly? No; that is not the answer either. Several political parties, including my own—the SDLP—and the Ulster Unionists, as well as the Green party, Conservatives and others, were emphatically against this anti-democratic proposal. The DUP and the Alliance were in favour of it, and Sinn Fein did not participate in the formal consultation exercise. Overall, of those consultees who responded directly on this question, 85% were against extending the Assembly term.
At this point the Secretary of State might say that a combination of the DUP, Sinn Fein and the Alliance can command a majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly, which represents broad support for the extension, but the Secretary of State has already acknowledged that she had a letter from those parties as far back as June 2012, some three months before she embarked on her consultation; she knew then that the leaders of those three parties all wanted to extend the life of the Assembly. Indeed, elsewhere in this Bill there are provisions aimed at correcting the anti-democratic nature of the Minister of Justice’s current position, which has already been referred to by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle. The Secretary of State already knew the views of these parties when she set the height of the bar that had to be cleared if the proposal to extend the term of the Assembly was to go anywhere.
In full knowledge of the views of the parties of the OFMDFM—the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister—the Secretary of State summarised the issue in February this year by saying:
“The Government has consistently made clear that any move to extend the length of the current term could only be made if there was a clearly demonstrable public benefit, and a very large measure of agreement in Northern Ireland.”
The Secretary of State further concluded that the responses to the consultation
“tend to suggest that there does not exist, as yet, significant agreement to this proposal.”
I am sure the Secretary of State would not disagree with what she said then.
That does not help us much with the solving of our mystery, however. The Secretary of State set a clear test of a
“very large measure of agreement”
and concluded that the agreement demonstrated so far had not been “significant”. So in February of this year, in full knowledge of the various political parties’ views on extension, the Secretary of State was against it. What changed?
The Secretary of State also set the test of a “demonstrable public benefit”, but there clearly is not one. OFMDFM Ministers can argue that five years might give the Executive more time to demonstrate its worth, but in fact the opposite is the case. The Secretary of State’s paper of February of this year commented on the “opinion frequently voiced” about
“the perceived inertia of the Assembly”
and concluded that
“extending the term would only add to this.”
In addition, the CBI expressed concern in its consultation response that, at the end of a four-year programme for government, an additional year could just be a year of unproductive drift. Indeed, the proposal to extend the term takes little account of the very significant public disbenefits of moving to 2016, such as having the election so close to the 100th anniversary of the Easter rising, when certain political extremists will try to raise, and then exploit, community tensions on the nationalist side. There are also sinister elements in loyalism that will try to do the same around the important world war one centenaries. That is not a great time to have an election for a fixed five-year term in a fragile democracy.
So, with no “large measure” of agreement and no “public benefit”, what could have made the Secretary of State change her mind? Could it have been the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee? After all, the views of the Committee on Standards in Public Life were given considerable weight in the Bill’s provisions on double-jobbing. No, however, it is not the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, because, as its Chairman, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), said earlier, it did not support the proposal to extend the term either. Indeed, when the Secretary of State met the Committee in March this year, she stated:
“But it is quite an unusual thing to do, and we would have to be clear about the benefits it would bring, the additional achievements that could be made by the Executive in that extra year, and also have a very clear case made publicly to that effect by the Northern Ireland political establishment.”
So even as late as March this year, the Secretary of State seemed to have no appetite for extending the term of the Northern Ireland Assembly, yet by 9 May, when this Bill was published with the explanatory document, all that had changed. All the consultation responses and the Secretary of State’s own decision criteria had been cast aside in just a few short weeks. What changed the mind of the Secretary of State remains a mystery, and it is a mystery that she must unlock; indeed, the Minister must unlock it here tonight, and it will need to be explored further in Committee.
I believe the decision to extend the Assembly term is an atrocious anti-democratic, and potentially dangerous, development, and flies in the face of most of what the Secretary of State has ever said on the issue. I can find no rational explanation for the change of heart in the Command Paper that was a response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee report. The Government do not provide much enlightenment in unlocking the mystery, except that they wish to be consistent with Scotland and Wales in extending the terms of the existing mandates. The Government and Secretary of State have ignored a vital point, however: that the people of Wales and Scotland were aware of the change to the fixed-term mandate before casting their votes in May 2011. The position in Northern Ireland was totally different. The people of Northern Ireland were not involved in this, and they voted for a four-year mandate. The only person who could do something to overrule the Secretary of State is the Prime Minister himself. Is a prime ministerial intervention the answer to our mystery?
So I put it to the Minister, who will be responding to the debate: how often, and when, did he and the Secretary of State discuss this matter with the Prime Minister? Did the Prime Minister direct the Secretary of State to concede the Assembly’s term extension to those who lobbied him for it? And we know who lobbied him for it: the DUP, Sinn Fein and the Alliance party. If he did, what explanation did he give? Can the Secretary of State, or the Minister of State, as it will be in this instance, tell me what impact this sordid U-turn had on the credibility of the Northern Ireland Office and will have on any future NIO consultations? What faith will the people of Northern Ireland have in such consultations? The NIO and the Secretary of State must never forget that she and her equivalent in the Irish Government are the custodians of the Good Friday agreement. [Interruption.] This is no laughing matter, because when we went to vote in the Assembly elections in 2011 we voted for a four-year mandate, so the people will feel duped. Given the weight of evidence against the extension of the Assembly’s term, surely there is some way in which the Government will be prepared to reconsider this fundamentally anti-democratic measure. Obviously we look forward to discussing the issue further in Committee—or perhaps we should start lobbying the Prime Minister.
Ms Ritchie
I wish to make a little more progress and then I would be happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he can provide the answer to this mystery, as it is important that we find a solution to it. We need to work closely together, in partnership, and we need to ensure that we are able to sustain and maintain our democratic integrity. That is done in the best interests of the wider population of Northern Ireland: not only do the people demand it, but they deserve it, because for many years we lived and worked in that divided society, which in many ways still exists. We were living in the cauldron of violence and terrorism, and that was wrong. I am glad to say that that is largely diminished and we must now move forward into a new scenario.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Lady for Down South for giving way. She has discussed great concerns about the issue relating to the Assembly elections, but had she the same concerns about the change of time scale for the council elections? Did her party express concern when the time scale was changed?
Ms Ritchie
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Obviously, we have been dealing with the review of public administration in the period of various Ministers, including at least three from the DUP when the RPA was being discussed.
Ms Ritchie
I have not finished this point and I wish to do so, if the right hon. Gentleman will let me. Obviously, there would be concerns, but I also know that it was the DUP and Sinn Fein that insisted that these arrangements for new councils be pushed ahead with—I know that from my colleague the Minister of the Environment.
Mr Donaldson
Of course, this is not without precedent because the Northern Ireland Assembly was elected in 1998 on a four-year mandate by the people but that was extended to 2003 with the full support and connivance of the very party that now protests against the very thing that it and the UUP supported back in 1998 to 2003. So it may be that the answer to the mystery is a bit closer to home.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I think that there have been some memory losses here. [Hon. Members: “Oh no.”] Oh yes, because I can well recall, as can my hon. Friends the Members for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) and for Foyle—the latter was Minister for Finance and Personnel and subsequently Deputy First Minister—the considerable periods of suspension, when the people of Northern Ireland suffered dreadfully as the DUP sat outside the Executive and did not participate.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The entire Chamber is debating this Bill, not just the hecklers in one corner of the Chamber. I would appreciate it if we could listen to each speaker courteously. Perhaps we will be able to stop the heckling now and continue with the point being made, bearing in mind that another debate is also scheduled for this evening.
Ms Ritchie
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am mindful of your advice on this matter, so I will move towards a conclusion. We have had an interesting debate this evening on the issue.
Although I would like to see that mystery unlocked this evening, there is also a need for a wider conversation that addresses the next phase of devolution. There is a need to devolve telecommunications and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to Northern Ireland, and we must also consider the character of constitutional discussion and the requirements to secure and advance policing. I will never forget that the SDLP, along with the Ulster Unionists, brought about that change in policing. My party, many times, single-handedly worked to bring about that new dispensation in policing.
Justice must be discussed, as well as the rights and equality achievements of recent years, and we need a deeper recognition from London of the nature of the Northern Ireland economy. We require further debate about those issues—not reserved to certain individuals, but in this Chamber and with these Ministers—and about our welfare profile and the impact of welfare changes on the economy of Northern Ireland and on the general health and well-being of our local population, the potential for the bedroom tax and the geopolitical considerations of housing and social housing location in Northern Ireland. Above all, the unfinished work of reconciliation and healing must take place within the north, on the island and between Britain and Ireland, and we must consider how London can move away and move with the Irish Government to help us to address issues to do with the past.
It is important that we discuss all those issues within the emerging politics that are Northern Ireland and that are the island of Ireland. We all look forward to such a participative democracy on these issues and to getting answers about how the decisions were made about moving from four to five year mandates. The people did not elect Members to the Assembly for five years, but for four. As that is the kernel of the Bill, I feel that the people I represent deserve an answer.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)
It is a privilege and an honour to wind up this debate, which so many people have taken part in. I think that I counted 16 hon. Members who participated, and that will now include me, with some 20 interventions, so there has been a lot of generosity.
At the outset, let me reiterate the points made about the G8 and say how proud I was as Minister of State to be at Aldergrove with the Lord Lieutenant for the arrival of the Heads of State and Prime Ministers and to be the greeter on the tarmac. It was an honour and a privilege to be able to welcome the eight biggest leaders of the world to Northern Ireland, and then to receive the sort of comments that I have been getting back, particularly in the past couple of days from the Japanese, who were here early, stayed in the centre of Belfast, and were simply thrilled. Many people had concerns before they came—I think that is understandable—but Northern Ireland has shown them the way forward.
I pay tribute to the work of the Northern Ireland police force and the other agencies, particularly the 3,800-plus police from Great Britain who volunteered to come over to be part of the G8 and make it such a safe event. We now look ahead to the world police and fire games and the marching season. Perhaps I am being slightly naive, but I am very positive and believe that even though we may have some difficulties throughout the summer, Northern Ireland wants to go forward, as we have been saying.
I was a little concerned when the drafting of the Bill took place. Putting the word “miscellaneous” in the title of a Bill means that we will have a very wide-ranging debate on lots of different things. We can have that wide-ranging debate in Committee, which will be on the Floor of the House for clauses 1 to 9. It is right and proper that the debate has the time that it needs not only here, but up on the Committee Corridor.
I will not go through every hon. Member who has spoken, which the shadow Minister did brilliantly. I thank him for his kind comments about the Secretary of State. Hopefully he will say nice things about me in the future, but I very much doubt it. We have had a wide-ranging debate, as is right. Many hon. Members do not agree with each other on certain issues to do with the Bill and with how Northern Ireland is progressing, but this is where such issues should be debated and thrashed out.
The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) said that this Bill might not be the right place to talk about victims. I tend to agree with him on that. We need to find a way in which that debate can take place, but this miscellaneous Bill might not be the right place. However, I will consider the amendments that are tabled.
The Government considered carefully what could be in the Bill as normalisation progresses. I agree with the many hon. Members who have said that we need to be careful. We do not want to lose what we have got by going too fast, but we do not want the situation to stagnate.
I am sorry if the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) feels that there has been some kind of conspiracy. I will not go as far as the shadow Minister. I assure her that not just the Secretary of State but the Government have looked carefully at extending the term. Having said that, I have had no conversations with the Prime Minister about it and I do not think that the Secretary of State has either, and she has sat through nearly the whole debate. The decision was made by us in the Northern Ireland Office and by the Government. I believe that extending the term to 2016 is right and proper. I hope and expect that the other devolved Assemblies will take that forward. A consultation did take place, but one large party did not take part in it. However, it did give its views to me and the Secretary of State.
Mike Penning
I will not give way, because I have to sit down in the next few minutes, but there will be plenty of time to debate that matter in Committee, on Report and on Third Reading.
The Government are adamant that we want to move towards openness about donations to political parties. I think that everybody agrees that it would be wrong to bring that in retrospectively. We will not expose people who have already given donations in good faith to that.
The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) said that there is no longer such a risk. I hope that I am summarising her comments correctly. All I can say is that every day, I consider appeals against refusals for close protection weapons and home protection, where the system has ruled that somebody does not need those things.
Northern Ireland
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
These matters are being thoroughly discussed between Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive and those in the Department for Work and Pensions, which remains anxious about and open to finding a solution that will work for the Executive.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Will the Secretary of State inform us about ongoing discussions between the Minister for Social Development in the Northern Ireland Executive and appropriate Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions on the issue of getting further flexibility to enable the people of Northern Ireland to deal with these cuts, which are the consequence of welfare reform?
Mrs Villiers
Those discussions are ongoing, and I am confident of a positive outcome from them. The hon. Lady will appreciate that a number of flexibilities have already been obtained from the DWP by Nelson McCausland.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I welcome the motion, because I think that the House should remind itself occasionally that the hard-won peace—and political—settlement in Northern Ireland remains very much work in progress, and that, from the perspective of London, there is much more work to be done and more help to be given. I also remind myself that the motion gently invites criticism of those who should be making more progress and doing better—perhaps those who lead the Northern Ireland Executive; perhaps the British Government. However, if I offer criticism in my short speech, it is intended to be of the constructive variety, and I hope that I strike, overall, a positive note.
Northern Ireland has come a long way, from the constant, daily violence of my childhood, to a relative peace and some measure of political stability. However, it is some 15 years since the signing of the Good Friday agreement, and while people would have expected little more than that relative peace and some measure of political stability in the first, say, five years, there has been growing frustration about the fact that it is taking for ever for us to see the full promised peace dividend. I am thinking particularly of the economic dividend from peace, namely investment and jobs. I recall my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) saying that we must move from a peace process to a prosperity process. Where is the prosperity process in which the British Government should be engaging?
Although regionally Northern Ireland has always been a net beneficiary of any Treasury settlement, we here are not the most culpable when it comes to the vital process of economic rebalancing. Although we may have been slow to identify new revenue streams and capital receipts in the north of Ireland, it was the UK Government who reneged on their promise of a £20 billion capital programme which would, in part, have allowed the north to catch up on years of under-investment in productive infrastructure. Perhaps the Minister of State will respond to that point when he winds up.
Again, it was the UK Government who, having held out the prospect, reneged on the question of devolving corporation tax-varying powers to the Northern Ireland Executive, despite the fact that all five Government parties were in favour of it and were prepared to pay for it. I am sure all Northern Ireland Members would welcome an update on that potential economic dividend. Despite some local criticism, our Executive Ministers have put a lot of effort into visiting major, current and emerging economic powers in order to win jobs and investment for Northern Ireland, and they have done so against the challenge of worldwide economic recession, so if I had to apportion responsibility for the Northern Ireland economy failing to meet the expectations of our people, I would not start by blaming the Northern Ireland Executive. However, I do believe significant economic progress is possible—but that must be accompanied by greater political progress.
The Secretary of State herself has linked further economic support, through an economic package and enterprise zones, to greater progress toward a shared future. Although I hesitate to see that as a necessary connection, I agree that we have not done enough in that area. The recent report from the Community Relations Council highlighted that one of the failures of the Northern Ireland Executive was in not doing enough on a policy for cohesion, sharing and integration. We are still a divided society, and we must move towards living together, whether through shared housing or shared neighbourhoods.
There is no alternative to a shared future. Our system of power sharing was not designed so that Unionist Ministers would cater for Unionist citizens and nationalist Ministers would look after nationalists. It was created so that we would share Government in the north of Ireland and act in the interests of everyone. That was the promise and potential of the good Friday agreement, and in many ways it has not been lived up to. While I have commended the Northern Ireland Executive, and in particular the First and Deputy First Ministers, on the genuine efforts they have made to attract investment, they have not distinguished themselves in other areas. On the flags issue, I would hope the DUP could provide the kind of leadership that it has not provided so far, and on the issue of parading, the Unionist forum is not the answer.
I have a question for the Minister—who represents a Government who are co-guarantor with the Irish Government of the Good Friday agreement—about north-south institutions. The Northern Ireland Executive, and in particular the Department of Finance and Personnel, which is led by the DUP, have again dragged their feet over a central project. The Narrow Water bridge project has enormous economic potential, and not only for my constituency where it will be situated. It will be a bridge between Warrenpoint in County Down and Cooley in County Louth, but it will create enormous investment, trade and tourism opportunities for all of the island of Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland. Let us grasp this opportunity and make everybody realise it presents a win-win opportunity.
Sinn Fein cannot have an à la carte approach to supporting the police. It needs to support the police even when they act against criminal suspects who happen to be republicans.
What we need from the First and Deputy First Ministers is real leadership around areas of division. We cannot work effectively at the heart of Government yet be attacking the very institutions—the PSNI, the Parades Commission—that have been set up to deal collectively, and fairly, with divisive issues.
My party above all still retains its belief in the promise and potential of the Good Friday agreement, and we remain committed to a shared future where all the parties do their very best to deliver for all the people of the north, in every area of Government. There is no doubt that devolution needs to work better for all the people of Northern Ireland, and I believe there is a will to do that, so let everybody—all the parties and both Governments—get on with it. I can say that my party is committed to meeting that challenge. I hope others are, too.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mike Penning
I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman, who is a friend of mine, has adopted the Labour party “tax” mantra. This is not a tax. What we are trying to do is make the position fairer for all our constituents. It is true that capacity is an issue in Northern Ireland; the problem is that there are too many people in the wrong sort of housing, and we need to help them to get into the right sort.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Is the Minister aware that Northern Ireland has one of the highest levels of dependence on benefits in the United Kingdom, that a high proportion of its population have mental and physical disabilities, and that its provision for affordable child care is the lowest in the UK? Will he assist the efforts of the Minister in the devolved Department for Social Development—along with the Department for Work and Pensions—to secure mitigation measures other than those that have already been announced in relation to welfare reform in Northern Ireland?
Mike Penning
Of course I will continue to work closely with the Minister in the devolved Administration. However, the best way in which to help those who are receiving welfare benefits is to get them off benefits and into work as soon as possible.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
3. What discussions she has had with the Irish government on the recent violence in Belfast.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I have been in regular contact with the Tanaiste, Eamon Gilmore, in recent weeks. Last Thursday, we met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Belfast to discuss various matters, including recent violence and disorder.
Ms Ritchie
As well as discussing the violence, has the Secretary of State any plans to discuss the question of a border poll with Dublin and, in particular, the Social Democratic and Labour party’s idea of a long-term financial support framework for Northern Ireland, agreed between London and Dublin, which would survive future constitutional change while, over time, reducing the north’s net dependency on the Treasury? Will she meet my party to discuss such proposals?
Mrs Villiers
I am certainly happy to meet the hon. Lady and her party colleagues. I have not discussed a border poll with Eamon Gilmore recently. My feeling is that the conditions that require a border poll are certainly not present in Northern Ireland, and we have no plans to call one at the moment.
Northern Ireland
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
I welcome that firm statement, which I am sure that everyone will endorse. Such decisions need to be taken on the basis of democracy and consent, and indeed decisions on matters as sensitive as flags need to be taken after calm reflection. It is important that a real effort is made to take into account the concerns of people right across the community. There is a way forward. Northern Ireland has demonstrated that it can resolve seemingly intractable problems that have divided people for 800 years, so I am sure that they can find a sensible way forward on flags as well.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. In condemning the levels of unrest on the streets of Belfast and the assault on democracy and on our hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and others across Northern Ireland over the past few days, does she agree that parties that agreed to designated days for flying the Union flag at Stormont should not have exaggerated the significance of having the same policy at Belfast city hall and that the consequences of such agitation, including the distribution of inappropriate literature door to door in east Belfast, have contributed considerably to the unrest on the streets?
Mrs Villiers
As I have said, the important approach is to recognise that those decisions are very sensitive and that different people in Northern Ireland view flags in completely different ways. I think that the guiding principle should always be that those decisions should be taken with care and thought after dialogue and with a mind on the impact on community relations and an understanding of their impact on people who have different views right across the community.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mike Penning
There will be a statement, believe it or not, later in the day in which the Chancellor sets out our economic measures—the autumn statement. I know that the hon. Lady speaks in good faith and cares about this problem, but it is not something that suddenly happened when the coalition Government came into power, or when the Northern Ireland Executive came into power; youth unemployment started to rise quite quickly in 2004 when her Government were in power, and that was in a time of boom before it went bust under the last Administration.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Will the Minister say what discussions have taken place with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive, apart from the talks about corporation tax, about greater devolution of economic levers to give the Northern Ireland Executive greater authority in dealing with youth unemployment, which currently stands at one in 20 of the population?
Mike Penning
I meet Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive regularly to talk about a range of issues. They have not requested the devolution of specific powers in this area, but if they do, we will listen to them.
Security in Northern Ireland
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I welcome the motion despite the barbed and direct attacks on me, my leader and colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), and my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). It was absolutely scandalous, because our record on violence and our record against terrorism, all down the years, has been straight and to the point: we reject it all.
It is of paramount importance at this time, when there is undoubtedly a growing threat from dissident republicans, that we show solidarity with those who do most to make our communities safe. That includes, obviously, the PSNI and the Prison Service. The murder of Prison Officer David Black was an abhorrent crime against a man who was doing an important and difficult job on behalf of us all. It was also a vicious crime against the family and friends of Mr Black. Our thoughts and prayers continue to be with them.
If I am to be frank, apart from relative stability, there are not that many successes that our somewhat dysfunctional devolved Government in Northern Ireland can claim. Hopefully, that will change. None the less, the outstanding achievement of this spell of devolution is that we have all taken a united stand against terror from whatever source. For some of us, that is nothing new. My own party has always stood against politically motivated violence whatever the goal, whatever the frustration at the lack of movement, or whatever the anger about the lack of justice. For us, the recent violence is little different, except thankfully in its magnitude, from the violence we all endured in past decades. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.
David Simpson
In the hon. Lady’s opening comments, she said that her party had stood against terrorism. That is fine, but will she condemn her leader for calling for the release of former terrorists?
Ms Ritchie
We were very concerned that the prisons issue does not feed the dissidents, as happened with the provisional movement in the past.
If I may continue: my party has stood against violence. Violence was wrong back in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s and it is wrong now—simple, clear. Others have come a longer way—whether those who have renounced the armed struggle and have followed the electoral road to places such as this, or those, including the Democratic Unionist party who moved this motion, who fanned the flames of division for many years, including sporadic flirtations with paramilitarism and lawlessness. We are now all in the same place. We stand united against terror and we will not be moved. It is vital that we continue, whatever else may divide us, that united stand against terror. There must be no slippage on anyone’s part.
I recognise the distance travelled by others and acknowledge that we are united against terror. That unity is genuine and, I believe, resilient. However, I must also caution the DUP and Sinn Fein on how we maintain our united stand and how we deepen our commitment. To Sinn Fein I say the following: they perhaps have travelled furthest of all and deserve credit for that, but they can and should do more. First, they should stop describing a murderous atrocity as achieving nothing, or pointless, or condemning the perpetrators as having no strategy. Such acts are not just wrong strategically and tactically—they are just plain wrong. They are morally wrong. It would help if they could just say so.
Secondly, republicans must do more to provide every shred of information they have, whether recent or from the recesses of their memories, to the police—not selectively, but completely. I believe that it was a major step backwards to see Sinn Fein leaders recently protesting outside police headquarters against the arrest of a republican in the investigation into the murder of Robert McCartney in Belfast. One either supports the police or not, and the dogs on the street know that republicans have yet to come clean on the brutal murder of Robert McCartney and the subsequent despicable persecution by republicans of his family.
It is not just Sinn Fein who need to do more to strengthen our united stand against terror. The party behind the motion can sometimes be uncomfortably close to some of the hard men on the other side. I understand that the DUP leader only recently complained to the Irish Government that funding going into worthwhile north/south infrastructure projects should instead go to community projects for loyalists, because loyalist paramilitaries were getting restless and were increasingly of a disposition to strike out. That is not good enough. Our united stand against terror must include all those who espouse terror and violence, not only the republican dissidents in this motion but the intimidatory thugs who continue to prey on working class communities on all sides. I would hope that the DUP pay heed to that.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I think there is evidence to that effect and he should discuss it directly with his colleagues who serve in the Northern Ireland Executive. [Interruption.] Yes, there is evidence to that effect.
We must not allow the tragic murder of Mr David Black to curtail our appetite for reform in the north. Our hard-working Justice Minister has plans to reform the Prison Service, just as we have reformed policing, and we must let him get on with it.
If there is one thing politicians can do to honour the memory of David Black and everyone else killed over the last several years—the police officers and other members of the security forces tragically murdered three or four years ago, and the other brave citizens cut down while providing essential public services—it is to strengthen and deepen our big achievement in devolution, which is our united stand against terror. That is what we should all subscribe to and what we in the SDLP—my party leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and I—have done continually.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
This has been a very helpful debate. We have been outlining the positives that we all recognise in Northern Ireland, yet we have also highlighted the dangers that still face many of the law-abiding citizens in our constituencies. We are thankful that things are not as they used to be; nevertheless, we must not let our guard down, and we must not be complacent. Although many, including those within Government, call these terrorists dissidents, let us not forget that many of these same terrorists were players trained in the knowledge and practice of terrorism by the Provisional IRA leadership.
Before dealing specifically with the motion, I acknowledge the valuable contributions by many across the House, raising their voices in condemnation of the brutal murder of Mr David Black, a gentle man whom I had the privilege of knowing personally, being from the town in which I was educated; it formed part of my former constituency of Mid Ulster, which I represented in the House for 14 and a half years. Sadly, since 1997 that constituency has never had a voice in the House. The only beneficiaries are the coffers of Sinn Fein, without the obligation to give representation here.
I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for his opening speech, in which he skilfully and professionally set out the backcloth for our motion. I also thank the other Members who participated. I thank the Secretary of State for her thoughtful speech, rightly identifying the remarkable progress, which few could ever have imagined, in Northern Ireland. I also noted that she acknowledged the arrest of two persons from Coalisland in relation to the murder of Mr David Black. I would remind her, however, that recently, buildings were found in which weapons of war were being hoarded, nearby in the same Coalisland area. It would be interesting to know how much public money was received to erect or to rent those properties. I think that deeper investigations should be considered. I think of the Secretary of State’s remarks as regards a number of terrorists that have been arrested; the prosecutions identify that that is not an insignificant terrorist group, but does indeed pose a terrorist threat.
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for acknowledging that things have changed significantly, and that we have a confident Northern Ireland, which is confident on the world stage. The excellent announcement that the Prime Minister was able to make yesterday concerning the G8 proves that confidence, not only within Northern Ireland but within the United Kingdom, as the Prime Minister projects Northern Ireland across the world in bringing world leaders to our Province. I also thank the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) for his participation, and the personal knowledge that he has expressed in this matter.
The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) made a valuable intervention on the inventory of terrorist weaponry—because we do need the greatest possible transparency—and on a garden of remembrance for prison officers. Those are salient matters that needed to be brought up in the debate, and I thank her for doing so. The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) pointed to the remarkable achievements. However, we should not underestimate the capacity of republicans to create serious problems to life and property, while bearing in mind the significant events of the past year. Thankfully, those events put us on the world stage for the right reason. We look forward to more remarkable events that are planned for the future.
My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) pointed out that most Members of the House know nothing of what it is to have to look under their cars and to exercise personal security because one happens to be deemed to be an opponent of the republican terrorists. I think that is a fact that many in the House have never grasped, even in the darkest days of our Province.
I thank the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). We certainly do not want to point Northern Ireland back into the dark ages we came through, but I can assure her that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Executive will work with her party’s Minister and leader, Mr Ford, and Security Minister, Mr Porter, in the efforts to give political leadership to the PSNI and the Prison Service at this challenging time.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) spoke about the harrowing times past and the miracle of the present situation. We grandparents never want to see our grandchildren—I am proud to say that I have nine—go through the dark days that my children had to go through in our home, under constant threat from the terrorists in Northern Ireland.
To the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) I say that I accept that there is no acceptable level of violence—there never was; there never will be. Terrorism was an evil in our midst and terrorism is an evil in our midst. All must equally condemn it and none must be allowed to sanitise the evil of the past.
Although I disagreed with some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), I suggest to her that when one has the opportunity, and uses it quite often, to give insults, it is always best to be able to take criticism when criticism is due. That is a good lesson, I think. There is a lesson in her evidence on why her colleagues in certain places supported McGeough, who tried to murder my colleague on Dungannon and South Tyrone council. The lesson of the past is this: you cannot go soft on terrorists; you cannot go soft on those who have actually gone through the courts, and when they have done so, they certainly have to spend the time in prison—
Ms Ritchie
I remind the hon. Gentleman of one person who died, obviously in tragic circumstances, with whom certain people had associations: Mr Billy Wright.
Dr McCrea
No, I will not. I was a member of Magherafelt district council. When young soldiers were murdered at Warrenpoint, it was an SDLP member—it is recorded in the minutes of the council—who said, “I will not shed a tear over the murder of those soldiers at Warrenpoint.”
Dr McCrea
He did, an SDLP member. It is recorded in the minutes. When challenged about why he would say such a thing, he replied, “Because they weren’t Irish.” That was despicable. I am happy for the hon. Lady to look at the minutes of the council, way back in Magherafelt. I was there; she was not.
The DUP motion rightly commences with our expression of deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black. His murder represents an attack on society as a whole. I was stunned on hearing the tragic news of the despicable murder of another innocent victim of IRA terrorism. David was a public servant who gave honourable and unstinting service to the Prison Service. Unlike the cowards who murdered him, David exemplified all that is good in Ulster people, doing his duty with integrity, decency and bravery. We all know that a car with Dublin registration plates pulled up alongside David as he travelled between Portadown and Lurgan on the M1 motorway, and David was shot dead—in other words, he was brutally murdered.
Unlike most, if not all, Members of this House, I had the personal privilege of knowing David. I counted him and his wife’s family circle as personal friends. He was a loving husband to Yvonne, a devoted father to Kyle and Kara, and a caring son and brother. The murderers did not care about those excellent characteristics and credentials of David Black. All they had was a lust for blood; vile murder was in their hearts. To Yvonne, Kyle, Kara, his elderly parents and his sister, I offer my heartfelt sympathy, having walked the lonely pathway to the graveside of my own loved ones.
This was a cold-blooded and callous murder, but it must be remembered that the murders of the other 29 prison officers who were butchered by terrorists, mainly the Provisional IRA, were, too. Those who murdered all the prison officers, police officers, Ulster Defence Regiment members and innocent civilians are equally repugnant and evil. No elevation to high office or elected office can remove the stain from their conscience or erase the record from the eternal book, which will be opened on the day of judgment before the Almighty Judge and justice will finally be handed out.
I congratulate the Black family on the dignity that they have displayed before, during and after David’s funeral. I pray that God will give them strength day by day to face the future, but I can assure them that that is not easy. They have made it clear to all that they do not desire revenge, but they do want justice to be done and those responsible to be found guilty.
Republican terrorists will not be satisfied with the murders of Constable Stephen Carroll and Ronan Kerr or those of Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey at the Massereene barracks in my constituency, or with the attempted murder of my constituent, Constable Peadar Heffron, or the numerous failed attempts on the lives of several members of the security forces. No, they are a part of the death squads of hate, and therefore the law-abiding community has a right to look to the Government for security and protection.
I appreciate that policing was devolved to Stormont, but national security, including for the people of Northern Ireland, is still the responsibility of this House. Therefore, it is important that a united voice goes out from this House in condemnation of the violence that is daily being planned by various republican terrorist groups against the vast majority of people, who simply desire to build a peaceful future. Indeed, many are finding it hard to cope with the economic downturn across Europe and face challenges with regard to daily living, including the possibility of some having to join the unemployment queues for the first time ever in their lives. When I look across the Province, I see enough suffering, sickness and hurt among families, and I cannot comprehend why some simply spend their energies scheming evil, desiring only to add grief, harassment, intimidation, terror and murder to our community.
We in Northern Ireland are resilient people. Indeed, we have proved this. We withstood more than 30 years of Provisional IRA bombs and bullets and resolutely faced them to achieve our right to remain part of this United Kingdom. Our legitimacy as Unionists, unlike what the hon. Member for Foyle has said, is not that the Unionist people of Northern Ireland desire to be part of the United Kingdom, but that Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales desire to be part of that United Kingdom. That is our legitimacy and it will be proven shortly, when the referendum comes to pass and the people of Scotland realise that we are stronger together than we would be apart. However, we need help. We urgently need the Government here to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to provide the fullest possible protection to members of the Prison Service and police officers in general, both serving and ex-members.
About two years ago, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed additional access to Treasury reserves—£200 million—over a four-year period to assist in the fight against republican terrorist groups. I appreciate that two years’ worth of money has been drawn down and that another two years’ worth is to follow, but the threat has not diminished in our Province to the point that we may not need extra money from the Treasury reserve fund. I therefore ask the Chancellor and the Prime Minister to give a commitment that as long as the security situation demands, additional funds from the Treasury reserve will be available to allow the police service to plan for the necessary equipment and personnel.
We also need to be assured that all necessary measures will be taken to combat and defeat the threat posed by terrorist organisations. We must not let our Province slip back into the cycle of murder and mayhem. We must therefore be determined to protect our community.
In conclusion, perhaps a few practical suggestions would be helpful. Many former prison and police officers live in vulnerable areas of the Province, and yet they have had their personal protection weapons removed. That is disgraceful. Many people, at the end of their sterling service through years of terrorism and intimidation, have been told to hand over their PPWs and have had the security measures removed from their homes. In their place, they have been handed a leaflet on personal protection. Will the Minister tell the House how many PPWs have been removed from former police officers, prison officers and personnel of the Ulster Defence Regiment or Royal Irish Regiment?
A few weeks ago, the Home Office stated that the threat from dissident IRA groups had reduced on the mainland. I welcome that, but we need to be careful in how we communicate such news. These sick, murdering maniacs can consider such language as putting it up to them and it can therefore be counter-productive. Indeed, it was after that announcement that my friend, David Black, was brutally murdered.
Although we must highlight the security threat, we must also put on the record how pleased we are to have the opportunity to welcome the world leaders of the G8 to our beautiful Province. I assure them and this House that our Province has much to offer. We will do all within our power to ensure that the world knows that Northern Ireland is and will continue to be, irrespective of any terrorist threat, open for business.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
It has indeed, and I had the honour of discussing these matters in a meeting in the city only recently. Northern Ireland has seen some striking success stories, such as the investment by Citigroup and the New York Stock Exchange. I praise the role of the universities in Northern Ireland, which have engaged with business, particularly in the financial services technology sector. That is an incredibly important industry for the UK as a whole, and it is a matter of real credit to Northern Ireland that it has successfully obtained so many inward investment jobs in the financial sector.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I welcome the Secretary of State and her ministerial colleague to their positions.
I understand that in the negotiations on corporation tax, the point at issue is not one of principle but one of cost, with one side estimating the cost to the Northern Ireland block at £300 million and the other estimating it as being in the region of £420 million. What is the Secretary of State’s understanding of that? If the latter is the case, how does she intend to suggest that the gap be met in discussions with the Treasury, and what will her advice to the Prime Minister be?
Mrs Villiers
Real progress has been made on the issue. The working group on corporation tax concluded on Thursday, and we are now proceeding to write up our findings and will report them to the Prime Minister in due course. We have an idea of how devolved corporation tax might work in a way that would not impose unnecessary administrative burdens on business. The hon. Lady is right that there are still important practical issues to resolve and alternatives to consider, and we will continue to work on those matters.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Paterson
Nobody underestimates the terrible damage the troubles did to people physically and mentally, but it is worth reflecting on the fact that high rates of DLA are not unique to Northern Ireland; Merthyr Tydfil has a rate of 13%, which is very similar to that of Belfast. What I think is important is that for the first time each person will be treated as an individual, his circumstances will be taken into account and rehabilitation, re-education and training will be offered. That has not come about before.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Given that many benefit claimants in Northern Ireland have their payments paid directly into Ulster bank and, because of the ongoing debacle caused by the IT problems, have therefore been unable to access their only source of income and their own money, what assurance can the Secretary of State give that he has had robust discussions with RBS, his colleagues in the Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions, and the Northern Ireland Executive, to find a long-term solution to this agonising problem for many people, which has heaped on them misery upon misery?
Mr Paterson
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the very real problems that people both in and out of work are suffering due to the IT breakdown. I raised the matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills yesterday. Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman of RBS, was in Northern Ireland on Monday and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State talked with him yesterday and is keeping in close touch. Ultimately, this is a problem for RBS to resolve internally, through Ulster bank, by getting the computer technology right, but the hon. Lady is right to raise the matter. This is causing horrendous problems not just for benefit claimants, but for those in regular employment.