Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Friday 9th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment (c) to new clause 1, subsection (3), leave out ‘a copy’ and insert ‘details of’.

Amendment (d) to new clause 1, subsection (4), at end insert

‘Such details shall be in a form prescribed by the local authority.’.

Amendment (a) to new clause 1, subsection (5), after ‘who’, insert ‘knowingly’.

Amendment (b) to new clause 1, subsection (5), at end add—

‘( ) It shall be a defence to any offence under this section if a copy of the licence had been displayed but had then been removed from display without the knowledge or consent of the scrap metal dealer.’.

New clause 5—Fraudulent display of licence—

‘Any scrap metal dealer who displays a licence purporting to be a site licence or a collector’s licence when the scrap metal dealer is not the holder of such a licence shall be guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.’.

Amendment 27, page 1, line 3, in clause 1, leave out ‘carry on business’ and insert ‘engage in activity’.

Amendment 28, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘carry on business’ and insert ‘engage in activity’.

Amendment 29, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘carries on business’ and insert ‘engages in activity’.

Amendment 34, page 1, line 8, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘3’.

Amendment 35, page 1, line 8, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 31, page 1, line 8, at end insert—

‘( ) If a local authority has reasonable cause to believe that a person is engaging in activity as a scrap metal dealer without a licence an injunction shall be applied for by the local authority against that person within 28 days.’.

Government amendment 1, in clause 2, page 1, line 17, at end insert ‘( ) name the authority,’.

Amendment 36, page 2, line 1, leave out paragraph (c).

Government amendment 2, page 2, line 6, after ‘licensee,’ insert ‘( ) name the authority,’.

Government amendment 3, page 2, line 8, leave out subsection (7) and insert—

‘( ) A licence is to be in a form which—

(a) complies with subsections (4) and (6), and

(b) enables the licensee to comply with section [Display of licence] (display of licence).

Amendment 37, page 2, line 10, leave out from ‘licence’ to end of line 11.

Amendment 90, page 2, line 15, in clause 3, at end insert—

‘(1A) No person with an unspent criminal conviction shall be a suitable person to hold a scrap metal licence.’.

Amendment 38, page 2, line 19, leave out ‘or any site manager’.

Amendment 97, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘the applicant or’.

Amendment 39, page 2, line 21, leave out ‘or any site manager’.

Amendment 40, page 2, line 25, leave out paragraph (d).

Amendment 41, page 2, line 33, leave out paragraph (a).

Amendment 42, page 3, line 7, leave out subsection (6).

Amendment 92, page 3, line 9, leave out subsection (7).

Government amendment 4, page 3, line 12, at end insert—

‘( ) the Natural Resources Body for Wales;’.

Amendment 43, page 3, line 14, leave out ‘or any site manager’.

Amendment 147, page 3, line 14, leave out

‘has been convicted of a relevant offence’

and insert—

‘has any unspent convictions for any offence’.

Amendment 44, page 3, line 15, leave out ‘one or both of’.

Amendment 45, page 3, line 16, leave out ‘conditions’ and insert ‘condition’.

Amendment 46, page 3, line 17, leave out paragraph (a).

Government amendment 5, page 3, line 17, leave out

‘between specified hours of the day’

and insert—

‘except between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on any day’.

Amendment 49, page 3, line 20, leave out ‘72’ and insert ‘48’.

Amendment 50, page 3, line 20, leave out ‘72’ and insert ‘96’.

Amendment 94, page 3, line 24, in clause 4, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘shall’.

Amendment 53, page 3, line 26, leave out subsection (2).

Amendment 93, page 3, line 26, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘shall’.

Amendment 95, page 3, line 29, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘shall’.

Amendment 57, page 3, line 31, leave out subsection (4).

Amendment 54, page 3, line 32, leave out ‘or any site manager’.

Amendment 55, page 3, line 33, leave out ‘one or both of’.

Amendment 56, page 3, line 34, leave out ‘conditions’ and insert ‘condition’.

Government amendment 6, page 3, line 35, leave out from beginning to ‘comes’ and insert—

‘A revocation or variation under this section’.

Government amendment 7, page 3, line 38, at end insert—

‘(6A) But if the authority considers that the licence should not continue in force without conditions, it may by notice provide—

(a) that, until a revocation under this section comes into effect, the licence is subject to one or both of the conditions set out in section 3(8), or

(b) that a variation under this section comes into effect immediately.’.

Government amendment 8, in clause 6, page 4, line 8, after ‘Agency,’, insert—

‘( ) the Natural Resources Body for Wales;’.

Government amendment 9, page 4, line 13, in clause 7, at end insert

‘issued by authorities in England.

( ) The Natural Resources Body for Wales must maintain a register of scrap metal licences issued by authorities in Wales.’.

Government amendment 10, page 4, line 14, leave out ‘register’ and insert ‘registers’.

Government amendment 11, page 4, line 21, leave out ‘register is’ and insert ‘registers are’.

Government amendment 12, page 4, line 22, after ‘Agency’, insert

‘or the Natural Resources Body for Wales’.

Government amendment 13, page 4, line 22, leave out second ‘the’ and insert ‘its’.

Amendment 58, in clause 8, page 4, line 30, leave out from ‘licence’ to end of line and insert—

‘need not notify the authority of that fact.’.

Amendment 59, page 4, line 31, leave out ‘28 days’ and insert ‘three months’.

Amendment 60, page 4, line 31, leave out ‘28 days’ and insert ‘six months’.

Amendment 61, page 4, line 36, leave out ‘28 days’ and insert ‘three months’.

Government amendment 14, page 4, line 38, leave out ‘the Environment Agency’ and insert ‘the relevant environment body’.

Amendment 62, page 4, line 39, leave out ‘(2) or’.

Amendment 63, page 5, line 2, leave out ‘28 days’ and insert ‘three months’.

Government amendment 15, page 5, line 4, leave out ‘the Environment Agency’ and insert ‘the relevant environment body’.

Government amendment 16, page 5, line 5, leave out ‘Agency’ and insert ‘body’.

Amendment 64, page 5, line 7, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘1’.

Government amendment 17, page 5, line 10, at end insert—

‘( ) In this section “the relevant environment body” means—

(a) for an authority in England, the Environment Agency;

(b) for an authority in Wales, the Natural Resources Body for Wales.’.

Amendment 88,  in clause 13, page 7, line 40, leave out subsection (3).

Amendment 78, page 8, line 14, leave out

‘or an officer of a local authority’.

Amendment 79, page 8, line 15, leave out ‘one month’ and insert ‘14 days’.

Amendment 80, page 8, line 16, leave out ‘or an officer of a local authority’.

Amendment 81, page 8, line 19, leave out ‘or an officer of a local authority’.

Amendment 82, page 8, line 26, leave out ‘or an officer of a local authority’.

Amendment 83, page 8, line 33, leave out subsection (12).

Amendment 84, page 8, line 40, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 140,  in clause 19, page 11, line 5, leave out

‘the council of a district’

and insert—

‘county council or unitary authority’.

Amendment 106, page 11, line 5, leave out ‘district’ and insert ‘county, unitary authority’.

Amendment 107, page 11, line 9, leave out from ‘(a’) to ‘dealer’ and insert—

‘collects, purchases or sells discarded metal suitable for reprocessing for reward’.

Amendment 141, page 11, line 10, leave out ‘regularly engages’ and insert—

‘engages on more than 300 days in a calendar year’.

Amendment 108, page 11, line 10, leave out ‘in the course of that business’.

Amendment 142, page 11, line 31, leave out subsection (10).

Amendment 143, page 11, line 34, leave out subsection (11).

Amendment 145, page 15, line 1, in schedule 1, leave out paragraph (b).

Amendment 146, page 15, line 3, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 89,  in schedule 2, page 17, line 14, leave out sub-paragraph (2).

[Mr Browne]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thought that you were about to read out in full all the amendments in the group, which would have meant my not being called to action for quite a while, as there is a substantial number of them. I shall speak principally to new clause 1 and the other Government amendments relating to the heading “Licensing regime”.

The group relates to the licensing regime in the Bill, and in it the Government wish to create one new clause and to add 17 amendments to the Bill. Unfortunately, in our view, the amendments have been diluted by a significant number of amendments tabled by other hon. Members. I do not propose to address all the non-Government amendments separately, but we take the view that, as a whole, they do not add to what my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) is seeking to achieve. We are therefore minded not to support them.

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[Mr Browne]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I remind the House that this is not a Second Reading debate; we are considering a new clause, so the Minister should concentrate on what that new clause brings to the Bill.

[Mr Browne]

Thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. Suffice it to say, the objective of the Bill is to prevent scrap metal theft and protect all our constituents, but let me turn to new clause 1 and the other amendments in the group.

In respect of the Government amendments, during the Bill’s Committee in September, members of the Committee contributed to a wide and interesting discussion as to whether the licence should be prominently displayed. That was prompted by an amendment from the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), who wished to mandate this requirement and made a constructive contribution to our deliberations. The Government resisted the hon. Gentleman’s amendment on the basis that I agreed to consult appropriate organisations on the point before deciding whether local authorities should be burdened with a requirement that might have been considered unnecessary.

I duly undertook that consultation, as I said I would, and on 18 December I wrote to the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Local Government Association, the Welsh Local Government Association and the British Metals Recycling Association, asking three questions about the physical form of the licence. I am happy to provide any Member with the detailed response to the consultation at the end of the debate, but the overwhelming response from all the organisations was that the licence should be in a form that can be displayed.

New clause 1 reflects the consultation, creating a requirement that a scrap metal dealer, whether they be a site licensee or a collector, display their licence to operate. It requires that a site licensee displays a copy of the licence at each site identified in the licence

“in a prominent place in an area accessible to the public.”

Collectors must display a copy of the licence on their vehicle

“in a manner which enables it easily to be read by a person outside the vehicle.”

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I was just about to suggest that the Minister might like to have a drink of water, to give him a break.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 2

Records of dealings: disposal of metal

‘(1) This section applies if a scrap metal dealer disposes of any scrap metal in the course of the dealer’s business.

(2) For these purposes metal is disposed of—

(a) whether or not it is in the same form in which it was received;

(b) whether or not the disposal is to another person;

(c) whether or not the metal is despatched from a site.

(3) Where the disposal is in the course of business under a site licence, the dealer must record the following information—

(a) the description of the metal (including its type (or types if mixed), form and weight);

(b) the date and time of its disposal;

(c) if the disposal is to another person, the full name and address of that person;

(d) if the dealer receives payment for the metal (whether by way of sale or exchange), the price or other consideration received.

(4) Where the disposal is in the course of business under a collector’s licence, the dealer must record the following information—

(a) the date and time of the disposal;

(b) if the disposal is to another person, the full name and address of that person.’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Hillsborough

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Seven Members still wish to participate in this debate, and we have an hour before the winding-up speeches will start. I am therefore changing the time limit for speeches in the hope that all of those Members will be able to speak. The new limit will be eight minutes.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Unusually, Members of Parliament have come in under time, so I am in the very happy position of being able to tell the last two Back-Bench speakers that they will now have 10 minutes each in reward for their patience. Mr Esterson, you will have 10 minutes and will be followed by Mr Blomfield, who will also have 10 minutes. We will then start the wind-ups.

Home Affairs and Justice

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Sheerman]

I missed the first two minutes of the Home Secretary’s speech, but I am keen to get into the debate because I have been outside talking about the dreadful case of criminals preying on children in Rochdale. My constituents do not really care what an agency is called; they want an effective mechanism. When I led a debate on child prostitution and the curse that we had across the northern region, I pointed out that one of the central problems is the not-joined-up relationship between different police forces in Lancashire, Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order.

[Mr Sheerman]

Is this going to be stamped out by this new—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman will sit down when I say “Order”. Interventions should be brief, and it is customary to ask a Minister to give way before launching into an intervention, although the Home Secretary is perfectly capable of taking care of herself.

[Mrs May]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I recognise that the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) passionately believes in, and cares greatly about, the issue he raised—and, frankly, so should we all. Sadly, child sexual exploitation takes place across communities and across the country. It is a matter of growing concern, given the number of cases identified by the police.

The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of police forces working together. One feature of the National Crime Agency will be its greater ability not only to bring the agencies within the commands of the NCA together, but to work with police forces up and down the country. One aim is to get a more joined-up approach towards crime fighting at this level. That is why I am pleased that CEOP will be within the NCA because CEOP has a hugely respected reputation for its work—but I think it can do more, and being located within the NCA will enable it to do more.

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[Nick Herbert]

The right hon. Lady has conceded that the Labour party would be cutting £1 billion a year from the police budget—I doubt she told police officers that when she saw them earlier. Will she also concede that she has said that there should be a two-year pay freeze, which saves another half a billion, and that her right hon. Friend the shadow Policing Minister has said that there should be changes to overtime and shift patterns that would save another £600 million—those were his words—which means that they are committed to exactly the same savings as the Government? Does she therefore understand that police officers will not believe her when she makes the claims that she does?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Minister, you should know better. Interventions are to be brief; they are not an opportunity to make a speech. That applies to Ministers as well as to Back Benchers.

[Yvette Cooper]

The Policing Minister can try this as often as he likes; it does not matter how many times he says it, he knows that it is not true. We have made it very clear that we think that this figure of £1 billion would be sustainable and, yes, it would include pay measures, changes and other ways of making efficiency savings. His figures may not include that, but we have made it very clear that to deliver the number of police officers—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Minister, you should not shout across the Chamber. You made an intervention. You are not required to like the answer, but you are required to listen to it and not heckle.

[Yvette Cooper]

Government Members need to recognise that their decisions are cutting 16,000 police officers. Our approach is to say that we do not believe that 16,000 police officers should be cut. We believe that the police should have enough money to support those 16,000 officers. We should not have had to cut 5,000 police officers already from 999 units, from neighbourhood response units and from the urgent response units that we need to keep us safe and to arrive in an emergency.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Lords amendment 2.

Lords amendment 3, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendments 4 to 8.

Lords amendment 9, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendments 10 to 15, 19 to 29, 56, 62, 64 to 66, 70 to 101, 114 to 116 and 134 to 137.

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[Diana Johnson]

I beg to move amendment (a) to Lords amendment 30.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

With this we will discuss the following:

Lords amendment 31, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendments 32 to 47.

Lords amendment 48, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 49, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 50, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendments 53 to 55, 57 and 58, 60 and 61, 63, 67 and 69.

Lords amendment 102, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 103, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendments 104 to 113, 117 to 132 and 138 to 145.

[Diana Johnson]

I wish to put on the record the fact that Lords amendments 33 to 36 are very welcome, as they relate to a matter raised in Committee and on Report, and directly with the Prime Minister. Originally, the Government planned that anyone committing a serious sexual offence against a child would not automatically be placed on the barred list unless they had worked with children or planned to do so. We are pleased that the argument we made in Committee has been accepted by the Government and that now, for all serious sexual offences committed against a child, the perpetrator will automatically be placed on the barred list. The original plans were bureaucratic and appeared to the general public to leave children in a potentially vulnerable position, so we very much welcome the Government’s action.

Both Houses of Parliament have debated extensively the vetting and barring part of the Bill. One of the key issues debated at length was what constitutes “supervision” of a volunteer and how that relates to ensuring that children are properly protected. Initially, in the Commons, the Government turned their face against defining “supervision”, but they have now set out a definition, albeit a very weak one, in amendments 30 and 31, which refer to both children and vulnerable adults.

At this stage, I wish to refer to the excellent report by the all-party group on child protection, chaired with great knowledge by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), which also called for a tightening up the definition of “supervision”. Amendments (a) to Lords Amendments 30 and 31 deal with this issue, and it is important to set out why the definition of “supervision” is so important.

Under the Government’s new system, any employer, voluntary sector body or charity will be aware that, from the Bill’s enactment, they will be able to obtain full disclosure of information about an individual only if that person is in “regulated activity”, which is now much more narrowly defined in the Bill. To take schools as an example, we know that all employees in a school will be in “regulated activity”, so full information on teachers and caretakers, including details of cautions, convictions and barred status, and any soft information, will be available. However, we also know that if we delve a little further in a regulated setting, we find people who might have volunteered within the school—to read with the children in an individual classroom a few times a week, for example. They will not be deemed to be in “regulated activity” if they are supervised within the school. Will the Minister clarify whether the school will be committing an offence if it requests information on the barred status of a volunteer who is supervised? The measures mean that schools will not have the right to any information about whether a volunteer had been barred by the Independent Safeguarding Authority. If a school decides to apply for a Criminal Records Bureau check, they will be provided only with very basic CRB check information.

I will return to this point in relation to Lords amendment 48, but first let me address the question of supervision. There is genuine concern that “supervision” is a very loose concept, which can mean many different things to different people, and that could put children and vulnerable adults at risk.

International Women’s Day

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Thursday 8th March 2012 Commons Chamber

Topical debate

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Greetings to all Members of the House on international women’s day. This is such a popular debate that it is necessary to have a five-minute time limit on speeches. If there are interventions, I am afraid that the time limit will have to go lower than five minutes. However, I am sure that we can all co-operate and ensure that everybody who wishes to participate in the debate manages to speak.

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[Hon. Members]

Sit down, Helen.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Would the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) like to sit down? I think it is best for Members to leave the chairing of the debates to the Deputy Speaker, but if the hon. Lady is giving way to Charlie Elphicke, she needs to sit down while he is speaking.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. There are many loving relationships, and there has been a revolution meaning that there are more women in the workplace than ever before, and also in relationships in which the children are cared for and deeply loved. Men even change nappies, as I did. Should we not celebrate the good things about men and women, and about women in the workplace?

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. We have to start the wind-ups shortly. I am keen to ensure that everybody gets in, and I hope that the Front Benchers might co-operate. If they could take eight minutes each, and if I now cut the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to four minutes, we will just about fit everybody in.

Forensic Science Service

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Miller]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman continues, I remind all Members that when making an intervention or speaking in the Chamber they must face the Chair and not turn their back to it, because otherwise it is very difficult not only for me, but for other Members to hear their contribution and pick up clearly the point from the microphones.

[Andrew Miller]

My hon. Friend makes a fair point, and I will demonstrate later that when we saw the next set of FSS accounts, the supposed £2 million a month loss had shrunk by a remarkable degree.

The FSS provided forensic services to police forces across England and Wales and to other agencies, such as the Crown Prosecution Service. It held about a 60% share of the market when the closure decision was made. We were told that the decision was based on commercial and legal grounds. The FSS had been struggling for many years, and it had gone through a series of status changes over the previous two decades, eventually becoming Government-owned.

Metal Theft

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Relevant document: the Fourteenth Report from the Transport Committee, Cable theft on the railway, HC 1609.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Before we start this debate, may I inform the House that 20 Members have asked to speak in it and we are going to start with a time limit of five minutes? May I ask Mr Graham Jones, who is going to introduce the debate, to speak for no longer than 10 minutes?

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. A large number of Members wish to speak, as can be seen from looking around the Chamber. I know that everyone wants to try to speak in this important debate, so I am reducing the time limit for speeches to four minutes. Will Members please remember that interventions add time to those four minutes? They help the person on their feet; they do not help the Member who is still waiting make a speech.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

I would like to start by congratulating the hon. Members for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), for Dudley South (Chris Kelly), for Worcester (Mr Walker) and for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) on securing this Backbench Business debate on a subject that undoubtedly has an impact on constituents of every Member of the House. The scale of metal theft has rocketed in recent years as the price of scrap metal has risen. For example, the price of copper has risen by more than 200% since the end of 2008, and by more than 400% since 1997, so the incentive to steal it has increased significantly over the past 15 years.

The problem is most acute on the railways. In 2010-11, 35,000 rail services were either cancelled or delayed as a result, at a cost of over £16 million. Theft has cost Network Rail £43 million in the past three years, and the Association of Train Operating Companies estimates that the knock-on effects cost the wider economy between £16 million to £20 million. However, the problem is certainly not confined to the railways. Churches, other religious buildings and monuments have become easy targets for thieves. Metal theft has cost churches in Manchester over £1 million in the past five years, including in my own constituency, where the lead was stolen off the roof of one of the church buildings in Southern cemetery twice in one month. Since 2007 there have been 480 claims from the Anglican diocese, and Ecclesiastical Insurance, which covers the insurance of churches, paid out more than £8.5 million in 2010.

Local authorities and water companies fare no better. Thames Water estimates that metal theft costs it £1.2 million each year, and Wessex Water claims that it has cost it £1 million since 2010. Manhole cover theft costs North Somerset council £40,000 a year and Newham council £60,000 a year. In Manchester we have a particular problem with the theft of drain gully tops, so much so that they are now replaced by a non-metallic alternative. In fairness, the local council is quick to respond to reports of missing gully tops, but their theft is a real hazard to the safety of cyclists, pedestrians and motorists, as gaping holes are created on the road next to the pavement.

In November last year the Transport Committee undertook an inquiry into cable theft on the railways. Its conclusions were not altogether surprising:

“A key factor to the increase in cable theft is the ease with which illegally obtained copper cable can be sold on and laundered into the legitimate trade. The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is inadequate to regulate the modern industry and reform of this legislation is necessary.”

Clearly the scrap metal trade is the weak link in efforts to combat metal theft crime. The Committee’s recommendations were not dissimilar to those put forward in the motion, and ultimately these additional steps might be required finally to bring about a reduction in scrap metal theft.

However, there has already been a swift response from the Government. In November they provided £5 million to establish a dedicated metal theft taskforce that will improve law enforcement on the illegal sale of scrap metals. Moreover, the Home Secretary laid a ministerial statement before Parliament only four days after the Transport Committee’s report was published. The statement proposed amending legislation and creating a new criminal offence to prohibit cash payments for the purchase of scrap metal and to significantly increase the fines for all offences under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, which regulates the scrap metal industry. That will be done by amending the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I call Mrs Louise Ellman.

UK Extradition Arrangements

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Raab]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way, but before he replies I gently remind him of the time limit that will apply in the debate and that his introductory remarks were supposed to take about 10 to 15 minutes.

[Mr Raab]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will make progress. The short answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) is that I am moving on to that point.

Each of the victims had a story to tell about the Kafkaesque operation of the European arrest warrant. In none of those cases have any alleged crimes been upheld, and in this country I believe that we still call that innocent. In the case of Michael Turner, a business man accused of defrauding administration fees in Hungary, six years after the alleged offence took place Hungarian prosecutors have still not even charged him with any crime whatever. That warrant was a fishing expedition—no more, no less. If we do not put in place some basic check as the tide of warrants rises, there will be more of those injustices. The case for reform is overwhelming and the starting point should be the recommendations of the Joint Committee. No one is talking about tearing up the European arrest warrant altogether; we are talking about adding some safeguards enumerated in the report. If we do not put some basic checks in place, we are inviting worse to come.

To answer my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton, according the EU Council Secretariat Britain now receives a third of all European arrest warrants, four times more than France and 15 times more than Poland. The number of surrenders is rising. In 2004, 5 British citizens were surrendered in a year, but last year the figure rose to one a week. The case for reform is clear. We must put in place some basic checks so that we can ensure that the innocent are not swept along with those whom we of course want brought to justice.

It is important to stress that no one is suggesting that we should let criminals go free. We want the introduction of basic safeguards. They might add a small delay in some cases, but they will not prevent a single criminal being brought to justice. Let us be crystal clear that there is no law enforcement dividend from selling out the innocent. The motion before us calls on the Government to introduce legislation to remedy the situation. Of course Parliament cannot tie its own hands. The JCHR recommendations should be the benchmark and any legislation must go through proper scrutiny procedures.

At the international level, the motion calls on the Government to pursue renegotiation of the arrangements with our American and European partners. The legislature is not demanding the impossible of the Executive. I hope that the Opposition will support us in this. The Leader of the Opposition has strenuously made the case, with regard to civil liberties, that:

“We should always take the greatest care in protecting them… too often we seemed casual about them. I won’t let the Tories or the Liberals take ownership of the British tradition of liberty.”

Those are fine words that he will be held to this evening.

I acknowledge the work of the Baker review. Judges and lawyers can give their legal opinions, but ultimately it is Members of this House, as elected law makers, who will decide. Each of us bears the responsibility to protect the liberty of our citizens and defend British justice, and I commend the motion to the House.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. There are time constraints on this debate, and a large number of Members—as you can see, if you would like to resume your seats—wish to take part. Therefore, there is going to be an eight-minute time limit on Back Benchers’ speeches from now, but that will have to be reviewed if we look as if we are not going to get in every contribution.

Border Checks Summer 2011

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tom Brake]

If we look at—[Interruption.] If we look at the catalogue of disasters under the last Labour Government—[Interruption.] The catalogue—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Members must stop shouting at each other across the Chamber. Points can be made in debate, but they must not be made by Members screaming at each other while another Member is trying to make a speech.

[Tom Brake]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was saying that if we look back on the catalogue of disasters under the last Labour Government, we can see why we did not support the right hon. Gentleman’s proposals.

I welcome the pilot and the emphasis on intelligence-led checks on very high-risk passengers and journeys. That has clearly had a very positive impact, as is shown by the preliminary results, such as the 10% increase in respect of illegal immigrants and, as we heard from the Prime Minister, the 100% increase in firearms seizures. I also welcome the reviews that have been launched into what has happened over the past few days and the review of the pilot. I particularly welcome the fact that on Monday the Home Secretary confirmed that she would be happy for John Vine to look at every aspect of this episode, including the ministerial decisions that were taken. However, I would just gently point out that that is not included in his terms of reference, but the fact that the Home Secretary put it on the record earlier this week confirms that he has that remit.

If we are serious—as I think Members on both sides of the House are—about improving security at our borders, one aspect that we could usefully address is the progress being made in respect of the border police command in the National Crime Agency. In the long term, that will clearly have a very positive impact on the security of our borders. An update on the progress being made in establishing that body would have been useful, and perhaps the Minister will give us that information in his winding-up speech. We would like to know, for instance, what progress is being made in drawing up the comprehensive cross-agency assessment of the threat posed to border security by organised crime; that is a key aspect of the border policing command responsibilities. I would also like the Minister to say whether the reviews that have been launched will have any impact on the business plan that is being drawn up, particularly as it relates to developing the smart zone concept for processing pre-checked low-risk passengers through border controls. Might these reviews have an impact beyond the topics under immediate scrutiny, which concern all hon. Members?

I know that many other Members want to speak, so I shall conclude by saying that what the events of the last three or four days have underlined is that in 13 years the previous Government did not reform a Department that was deemed to be not fit for purpose, and that the coalition Government have not completed the reform yet either, but we are committed to doing that and we will achieve it in this Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will not trouble the House with the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks to my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), but he has now three times described the Secretary of State as “arrogant and indolent”, which, if not unparliamentary, is offensive. Being a new Member, I would ask whether he needs to withdraw those comments.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I can say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman are not unparliamentary, in the sense that they are not impugning the personal honesty of a Member of this House. But comments are being made by Members on both sides and we would all want to reflect on whether they show this House at its best. They are sailing pretty close to the wind of good parliamentary conduct, and I take this opportunity, therefore, to say that there is no requirement for anything that has been said thus far to be withdrawn, but perhaps everybody could bear that in mind.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman]

The hon. and learned Gentleman may, in the short time that remains to him as a Member of this House before the next general election, learn what is parliamentary language and what is not.

The fact is that, unlike Lord Carrington, who resigned over the Falklands even though he was not to blame, and unlike other Tory Ministers who were honourable and who resigned, this Home Secretary is trying to save her own skin by destroying the career of a decent public servant, who is not being given the chance to answer for himself, although he will get that before the Home Affairs Committee in a few days’ time. This Home Secretary is not fit for purpose. She may not resign now, but her days are numbered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I still have 11 speakers who want to take part in this debate. Therefore, I am reducing the time limit, from the next speaker, to five minutes. Hopefully, we will get everybody in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Many hon. Members still wish to speak, but we are running out of time—interventions are taking up a lot of time—so I am going to reduce the time limit again, this time to 4 minutes from the next speaker, in the hope that Members waiting to speak can get in. Perhaps those who have already spoken could apply some discipline and not intervene.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)]

This is a serious subject, which deserves serious contributions. Sadly, the shadow Immigration Minister, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), has just characteristically walked the line between opportunism and hypocrisy, as he so often does, believing apparently—[Interruption.] He apparently believes—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sure the Minister was not making any personal comment as to integrity or behaviour, but he might wish to rephrase his remarks.

[Damian Green]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary talked about risks. I have been in correspondence with the Minister and the Home Secretary, and we disagree about the internal port at Stranraer and Cairnryan. Following the withdrawing of UKBA funding there, people arrive—[Hon. Members: “Speech!”] People arrive there, they are illegal and they are identified by the Dumfries and Galloway constabulary. Arrangements are then made with—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. If Members rise to intervene, they should make an intervention, not deliver a short lecture. I call the Minister.

[Damian Green]

I know how strongly the hon. Gentleman feels about the Larne and Stranraer issue, but it is not an international port. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom; boats that come from Northern Ireland to Scotland are not crossing an international boundary. That is a fact that the hon. Gentleman needs to recognise.

The pilot was designed to improve security at our ports and to strengthen our border. Several Opposition Members said they believed that it was not being monitored and that no information was being passed to the Home Secretary or me during the course of the pilot, but of course that was not the case. We were getting regular information from management about what was happening, and it was telling us that there was a 10% increase in the detection of illegal immigrants, a 48% increase in fraudulent documents detected, and that cocaine seizures and illegal firearms seizures were up.

Hillsborough Disaster

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Given the time we have for this debate and the number of Members who have indicated that they wish to speak, I am going to change the time limit on Back-Bench contributions to 12 minutes, starting with the next speaker. I think that will balance the debate for us.