Diana Johnson
Main Page: Diana Johnson (Labour - Kingston upon Hull North)Department Debates - View all Diana Johnson's debates with the Home Office
Protection of Freedoms Bill
Diana Johnson Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Lynne Featherstone
These are largely technical amendments, so I can be brief. New clause 12 confers power on the Treasury to make provision varying the way that tax provisions will be applied to any property, rights or liabilities transferred to the new disclosure and barring service from the Independent Safeguarding Authority and the Criminal Records Bureau. It is standard practice that such machinery of Government changes should be tax neutral, and the new clause ensures that that is the case in this instance. The other amendments in the group make other minor and technical provisions in relation to the establishment of the disclosure and barring service.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Like the Minister, I intend to be relatively brief. Let me say clearly that Labour Front Benchers are not against creating the disclosure and barring service. We were concerned, however, that the Government prevented full and proper scrutiny of the setting up of the service by announcing only halfway through the consideration of the Bill the amendments that would achieve that. We therefore now have several other Government amendments, which I recognise are mainly technical in nature, to tidy up those originally tabled.
I hope that the Minister might be able to help me with a few questions about the disclosure and barring service, particularly on the costs of the new computer system that will be created alongside it. It is likely to be a considerable spending commitment, and we know that the Government are very concerned about spending money at this time. Will the Minister clarify the full cost of the new computer system and explain the figure of £37 million for web-based maintenance costs mentioned in the impact assessment?
In the past, unfortunately, Government IT systems have had a poor record of costs running out of control and problems with delivery. There were problems with the CRB checks system when it was first introduced, and people had to wait a long time to get their checks through, but it is now working relatively well and they often get checks within a few days. What reassurance can the Minister offer that the new computer scheme will work effectively and provide the level of protection that we want for children and vulnerable adults during this period of transition from the current scheme?
Having said that, Labour Front Benchers are satisfied with the technical nature of the majority of these amendments.
Lynne Featherstone
I thank the hon. Lady for being brief. I am sure she will remember that in Committee we apologised for the lack of time in briefing her about the joining of the two services. I hope that we made up for that somewhat by offering a special briefing to run through the details. The joining of the Independent Safeguarding Authority and the Criminal Records Bureau has been welcomed on all sides as the right way to go, and I am glad that we have all come to that conclusion. As for the IT costs, this was a value-for-money decision. The IT spend estimate is £200 million over five years, which will be funded by fees. We would have had to replace the existing IT regardless of the establishment of the DBS. This has been arranged to time with when the contract would have come to an end.
As the hon. Lady says, CRB checks have improved beyond recognition. As the Minister who receives the correspondence on this issue, I can say that my correspondence tray used to be full of complaints about the time people’s CRB checks had taken. That flow is now reduced to a small trickle.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 12 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 18
Information included on an enhanced criminal records certificate
‘After paragraph (b) of subsection (3) of section 113B of the Police Act 1997 insert—
“(c) states whether the applicant is on a barred list maintained by the Independent Safeguarding Authority in relation to work with vulnerable adults or children (whichever is appropriate).”.’.—(Diana Johnson.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 111, in clause 66, page 49, leave out from line 32 to line 5 on page 53 and insert—
‘(1) In sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act (inclusion subject to consideration of representations), after paragraph (b) insert—
“(c) give the person the opportunity to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of a panel of at least two persons.”.
(2) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 3 of that Schedule (behaviour) insert—
“(2A) The right to representation must include the right to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of at least two persons.”.
(3) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of that Schedule (risk of harm) insert—
“(2A) The right to representation must include the right to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of at least two persons.”.
(4) After sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 8 of that Schedule (inclusion subject to consideration of representations) after (b) insert—
“(c) give the person the opportunity to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of a panel of at least two persons.”.
(5) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 9 of that Schedule (behaviour) insert—
“(2A) The right to representation must include the right to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of at least two persons.”.
(6) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 11 of that Schedule (risk of harm) insert—
“(2A) The right to representation must include the right to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of at least two persons.”.’.
Amendment 117, in clause 78, page 64, line 33, at end insert—
‘(3) After section 113A(3) of the Police Act 1997 (criminal record certificates) insert—
(3A) The Secretary of State must make provision to ensure that the registered person is informed when the criminal records certificate is issued.
(3B) The Secretary of State must make provision to send a copy of the criminal record certificate directly to the registered person when the individual consents.”.
(4) After section 113B(4) of that Act (enhanced criminal record certificates) insert—
“(4A) The Secretary of State must make provision to ensure that the registered person is informed when the enhanced criminal records certificate is issued.
(4B) The Secretary of State must make provision to send a copy of the enhanced criminal record certificate directly to the registered person when the individual consents.”’.
Diana Johnson
Under new clause 18, the barred status of an individual would be revealed in a CRB check. The House will know that at present, an enhanced CRB check may reveal all convictions and cautions, regardless of whether they are relevant, and allegations made to the police that were not turned into convictions. One gets barred status information only if the person will be working in a regulated activity, and the Bill has produced a narrower definition of “regulated activity” than previously existed. For example, all employed positions in a school are involved in regulated activity and barred status information would be provided for those jobs.
A standard or enhanced CRB check does not reveal barred status. An enhanced CRB check would not reveal that a person had been investigated by experts at the Independent Safeguarding Authority. It would not show that allegations had been verified and references sought, and that the person had been able to make representations. It would not reveal that the Independent Safeguarding Authority had come to an informed decision that the person posed a significant danger to children or vulnerable adults.
What is more, many people on the barred list are not even known to the police. That came out in Committee. The reason could be that the parents do not want to put their child through the ordeal of making a formal complaint to the police, but the school notifies the Independent Safeguarding Authority of concerns about an individual teacher or member of staff. Another scenario is that a supply teacher moves from school to school and, although it is quite clear that there is a problem, the schools just decide not to have the supply teacher back and do not notify the police of their concerns. Eventually, the local education authority may take the view that the ISA should find out why there are so many schools where that supply teacher is not welcome. The ISA might then receive complaints and look at the employment history of the individual and see a pattern of allegations, and the teacher moving on quickly. Again, that might all happen without any formal complaint being made to the police.
With vulnerable adults it is often difficult to substantiate allegations—for example, of theft from dementia patients. A care home might decide not to notify the police, but just to dismiss the employee and notify the ISA. Even though the police do not always get involved in or know about complaints and allegations, such people are clearly a danger to vulnerable people and children, and that information should be made available to their future employers.
It would be a great help to employers, particularly charities and small voluntary sector organisations, if they were informed of concerns that the Independent Safeguarding Authority had looked into, on the basis of which an individual had been barred. The Committee received a number of submissions from sports clubs and organisations that wanted to know that any information about barring would be made available to them when working with, teaching or training young people.
I would like to give the Minister an example and ask her whether such a person will be covered by the proposals in the Bill. X is a former teacher who is barred from working with children following substantiated reports of inappropriate behaviour from three schools. None of the allegations was passed on to the police, as I have explained is common. X presents himself as a retired teacher and volunteers at a primary school. At the primary school, he hears children reading and works one-on-one with the same 10 children every week. Under the current law, the school must check his barred status and would find out about his history. The school would know that information quickly. I understand that schools can obtain barred status within 24 hours.
My understanding is that under the new law, it would be an offence for the school to check his barred status and it would not be given that information. Even if the school followed best practice and conducted an enhanced CRB check, that would reveal nothing, as no allegations had ever been made to the police. There would be no soft information and no criminal convictions on the CRB check. However, this person would clearly be a threat to children in the view of the Independent Safeguarding Authority, and would be on the barred list. As I understand it, under the proposals he would not be prevented from working with children. It would be helpful if the Minister explained why she feels it appropriate that information from the many trained experts at the Independent Safeguarding Authority—specialists in this area who are able to analyse information and allegations—should not be made available to schools and other organisations that wish to rely on that expertise.
I am sure that the Minister will also want to respond to my point about the Bichard inquiry, which as hon. Members know came out after the dreadful Soham murders. The major thrust of the report and recommendations on how to avoid another case like the Soham murders was that information should be properly shared between all interested parties. The Independent Safeguarding Authority is the body that has the most information. All employers, charities, voluntary groups and sports organisations should be able to benefit from its expertise and insight.
Moreover, when a CRB form is processed electronically, barred status comes up immediately. If an employer needs to recruit someone urgently and needs the information speedily, as often happens in the adult care sector because people become ill or move on quickly, they may be tempted to put people into sensitive positions even though they are waiting for a CRB check. I wonder whether the Minister could refer to that issue. This matter is so important that I would like to test the opinion of the House on new clause 18.
Amendment 111, which would amend clause 66, relates to people who commit serious offences. Such people are currently put on the barred list automatically. Since 1933, people who have been convicted of serious offences against children have been banned from working with children. In the Bill, the Government propose that a person convicted of a serious offence should not automatically be barred from working with children. For example, under the new proposals a man working as a lorry driver who had been convicted of raping a child would not automatically be put on the barred list. The test that the Bill sets out is that he would be put on the list only if he was, had been or might in future be engaged in regulated activity relating to children.
Jim Shannon
Does the hon. Lady agree that the Government also need to be clearer in their explanation of how the continuous updating of CRB checks will work? Many people are currently unsure.
Diana Johnson
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, because how that system will work is unclear. I cannot get my head around the updated procedures. What consent will need to be given? What information about employees or volunteers will be made available to employers or voluntary sector groups? When will barring information be made available? If someone is barred while they are employed, will that information be made available readily to an employer? The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point, which illustrates the fact that information on how the system will work needs to be made widely available.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend accept that the current system has its faults? There are too many examples of the wrong person being identified, and of information that is not pertinent to them being attributed to them by a false CRB check. Would it not make more sense for the Government to try to streamline the system, so that we have a more efficient system designed for the purpose, rather than adding to the complexity, therefore increasing the chances that such errors will take place and devalue the checks?
Diana Johnson
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. There are also concerns about the use of fraudulent certificates. Once a number has been allocated, people can take certificates to unsuspecting employers and say, “This is my CRB certificate. It’s all fine and there’s nothing to worry about.” Most employers—especially small employers or voluntary and community groups—would accept that at face value. We need to make the system as streamlined as possible, but we also need to make it as foolproof as possible, and to reduce the use of fraudulent CRB checks as much as possible.
On the basis of the points that I have raised, I hope that the Minister can reassure the House on those questions, which in effect are about keeping our children and vulnerable people as safe as possible, and about keeping people who should not be working with children or vulnerable people away from them.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
I shall speak briefly on the issues raised by this group of proposals. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) has already stated, the all-party parliamentary group on child protection held an inquiry and took evidence from a wide range of organisations. Some people spoke for a number of organisations and some spoke in their own right. I am grateful that the Minister read and responded to the group’s report, that she met members of the group, and that she has taken on board some of the points made.
I echo the concerns of my hon. Friend the shadow Minister. We are all concerned about child protection and the abuse of children. However, abuse is at times difficult to prove, and it is certainly difficult to get convictions. Sometimes, it is difficult to get definitive evidence even when suspicions of individuals have run for a long time. Children are told to respect adults, and often the most vulnerable children are targeted by abusers, so information does not come out easily.
That is why barred list information is so important, alongside CRB information. It would be a tragedy if people who have criminal records were allowed to work with children, but we know from years of experience that people who have raised significant concerns in their relationships with children in the past go on to abuse them, and in some dreadful cases—thankfully, a minority of cases—kill them. We have a responsibility to do all that we can to prevent that, because getting this wrong could be catastrophic.
Lynne Featherstone
As I said, I will come on to that in due course, when I talk about barring information and about what is on the CRB certificates. Ultimately, the fact that someone is barred is not necessarily the key issue—[Interruption.] Well, if someone has been convicted of a sexual assault or other sexual offence, it will be on their certificate. The fact that they are barred from regulated activity will not. [Interruption.] I have now said twice that I am going to cover this matter, so I hope that the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) will let me make some progress.
We do not want to arrive at a position in which an employer could deny a job in a non-regulated activity to an applicant on the basis that he or she was barred from regulated activity. In such circumstances, an employer would effectively be saying, “I’m not giving you this job, because you are barred from a completely different area of work.” That would plainly be wrong, and disproportionate to the aims of the disclosure regime. It could also lead to legal challenges.
Lynne Featherstone
Okay, but I do feel that I am getting to all the hon. Lady’s points.
Diana Johnson
I am sure that the Minister will get to all my points, but I want to give her an example that fits the scenario that she has just described, and that ought to worry us all. It involves a taxi driver. Taxi drivers require only a standard CRB check involving the standard disclosure. In this example, the taxi driver was ferrying children from school occasionally, once or twice a month, but numerous accusations that that person had abducted schoolgirls had been recorded with the ISA, and he was in fact barred. The taxi firm did not know that, however. As I understand it, the firm had behaved properly in simply carrying out the standard CRB check. Surely the Minister would accept that, if the firm had known that the person was barred from working with children, that would have affected the jobs that he was given by the employer.
Lynne Featherstone
A taxi driver who worked with children would be eligible for an enhanced CRB check, which would show up any such convictions. I am going on to the ISA stuff—[Interruption.]
Lynne Featherstone
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North could produce endless scenarios, but all I was going to say in response to the example of the taxi driver is that the law has not changed. Taxi drivers have been getting enhanced standard CRB checks. Taxi and private hire workers who work regularly with children are eligible for enhanced checks. Other drivers are eligible for standard checks, as the hon. Lady said, and that will reveal spent and unspent convictions, cautions and warnings. We are considering how best to ensure that vulnerable groups are protected, and officials have recently had productive discussions with relevant stakeholders on this issue.
I will come on to the crux of the argument made by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), which was that some referrals to the ISA from employers, schools and so on involve information that never finds its way to the police and that would therefore not be revealed, even in an enhanced CRB check. I was saying that an employer could say, “I’m not giving you this job, because you are barred from a completely different area of work.” We think that that would be wrong. I want to make it clear that an enhanced CRB certificate will still be available to employers and volunteer organisations that employ people in certain work that involves children or vulnerable adults but that falls outside the scope of regulated activity. We will publish detailed proposals in good time on the implementation of the overall reforms to the disclosure and barring arrangements.
The parts that worry Labour Members, and that we have paid attention to, are the positions that were in regulated activity and that are now in unregulated activity and therefore not subject to the controls available to regulated activity.
Lynne Featherstone
Well, all right, but after this I must make some progress, because I think we are just going round in circles.
Diana Johnson
I just want to clarify a point. The Minister said that there were groups, occupations or opportunities that would attract enhanced CRB checks and barring information even though they did not involve regulated activity. Is this new? Is she saying that this is a new group?
Lynne Featherstone
No; either I misspoke or the hon. Lady misheard. Enhanced CRB checks will be available if an employer chooses; it is not a requirement. If there is a post in a school that involves unregulated activity and the school wishes to have a criminal record check for the person undertaking that unregulated activity, it can do so. Obviously, all conviction information will be in that check, and if it is an enhanced check, it will also include soft, local information from the police.
The greater challenge will be in the other direction, because of the conditioning around child protection. People have become incredibly cautious, and that is to be welcomed, but the Government are trying to say that employers and people who run organisations have a locus in this; they have a responsibility. It is not just about getting a CRB check; we want employers to make a judgment to ensure that everyone in their establishment is safe to work with children, whether the work is regulated or unregulated. That is the criterion: when they take someone on as an employee or as a volunteer, it is just as important as the CRB check or whether the person has regulated or unregulated status that employers have their own ways of checking, through references and talking to people, and that they take very conscientiously their duties to safeguard children, for their own conscience and behaviour, in their employ.
I should make it clear that the checks are still available to employers. We will publish more details on that, and we will give more information on statutory and non-statutory aspects when we get to the next group of amendments. The disclosures include information on previous criminal convictions and cautions, spent and unspent, and relevant local police information. It is essential that the fact of a bar be disclosed on an enhanced CRB certificate for regulated activity, because barred people are prohibited by law from doing such work. It is a criminal offence for someone who is barred to apply for work in regulated activity; similarly, it is an offence for an employer knowingly to employ someone on the barred list. Indeed, under the Bill, there is a duty to check whether someone who applying to work in regulated activity is barred.
For other positions, where an employer has discretion whether to employ someone or to take them on as a volunteer, it is even more important that they should see the behaviour itself, in the form of convictions, cautions and local police information, rather than the actual information as to whether there is a bar—this is still about regulated activity, not the ISA referral, which I will come to in a moment. Together with the other information that the employers will have obtained during the recruitment process, they will then be able to make a decision on whether to employ the person.
One of the subjects that we discussed at length in Committee involved the information that arrives at the police. Through guidance, we will encourage employers and volunteer users to ensure that the police, as well as the barring authority, are informed in cases where there is a risk to vulnerable groups. That could then be reflected on the CRB certificate, if relevant, and will assist the police with their wider protection duties.
Although I acknowledge the hon. Lady’s argument about parents not wanting to involve children in getting rid of somebody who is under suspicion at a school and not wanting to refer the matter to the police because that creates difficult circumstances, to be frank, this Government want that referral to be made. That information must be given to the police. It is absolutely inappropriate not to do so if a school or organisation suspects that someone is unsuitable to work with children. We want to take the atmosphere around that situation away, so that what happens is not just that the case can be referred to the ISA—which, as the hon. Lady rightly said, uses its excellent skills to impose a discretionary bar—but, more important, that the information goes to the police, and not just because of the employment situation. If the information is on the enhanced Criminal Records Bureau certificate, the same person—who could be a volunteer or in employment—can also go out of that establishment and down to the local park. It is really important that the information gets through to the police. I want that point to go out loud and clear. Although the hon. Lady raises a valid point, we are hoping to change the position so that it is no longer the case that people use their discretion to refer only to the ISA, and that the ISA shares that information.
Diana Johnson
The Minister is absolutely right that the police should be informed where there are allegations that need to be properly investigated and, hopefully, brought to court so that people can be convicted, but I am concerned that in some cases that will not happen, for whatever reason. Where the ISA has information that someone should be barred from working with children, would it not be appropriate for that information also to be passed on to employers, voluntary sector groups and charities?
Lynne Featherstone
I do not think that we will reach agreement on that point, because we regard it as disproportionate to give barring information in a situation that is not appropriate for barring—that is, where there is not regulated activity. The concept of the barred status of individuals not appearing on certificates for positions falling outside regulated activity is not new; that has been the case. The key changes of our provisions are to the scope and extent of regulated activity, not the application of barring provisions, which remain the same. We have changed the scope.
The hon. Lady raised the issue of people who are barred being able to have access to children on an infrequent basis under the current scheme—for example, as volunteers in schools. That is the case at the moment. I think people who were barred could have access to children three times a month—that is, infrequently. Under the old regime—or the current regime, I should say—if there was infrequent contact, people did not have to be checked. They could be checked, but it was not mandatory. There will always be people who have some contact with children whom parents cannot check. There were under the previous Government’s scheme: as I say, if contact was infrequent, people were not necessarily checked. We cannot eliminate risk entirely, but we believe that we are minimising it.
The hon. Lady raised the case of a former teacher who was barred from three schools where the information was not passed to the police. That teacher went on to volunteer at primary school, working one-on-one with 10 kids. As I have said, the enhanced CRB check would not show the information, because the case was referred to the ISA, but we are saying that in future that information should be passed to the police. More importantly, volunteers in an unregulated situation will be supervised. It is crucial that employers and organisations understand what is appropriate in terms of supervision and, therefore, what is regulated or not regulated activity, which we will come to later. The law would then be involved, because it would be against the law to employ someone or have them in unregulated activity if the barred status had not been checked. However, we will come to that in due course.
Diana Johnson
I am trying to help the Minister, who may have said something that I am not sure her officials would agree with about someone who is currently barred having access to children in school. Perhaps she could consider it again. My understanding of the current law is that schools have to check the barred status of individuals in schools, so people barred from working with children would not be in schools at the moment.
Lynne Featherstone
If they were in regulated activity, they would be barred. It is a duty under the law that they should be checked.
The hon. Lady also raised the concerns of the Football Association and Girlguiding UK, but we see no reason why the provisions in the Bill should discourage volunteering. In particular, there is no reason why central human resource specialists cannot contrive to take decisions about whether to take on a new volunteer. In such cases, the prospective volunteer would send their CRB certificate to the central body rather than the local branch—in this case, to the football coach or the guide leader. The e-Bulk system continues.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked me to explain continuous updating, and it might help those who were not involved in every aspect of the Committee if I do so. Continuous updating will be an e-system. An employee will be given an exclusive number. When they go for a job, they can give that number—their PIN, as it were—to the prospective employer and, sitting in the interview, that employer can log on with it and check that person’s CRB status in relation to children, vulnerable adults or both. What will be shown on the screen is either whether there has been any change from when the last certificate was presented or that person’s last status. If there is no change, no more information is needed; if there is a change, the screen will tell the employer that there has been a change to the available information. Obviously they will then need a new certificate, so that the employer knows that there has been a change and that there is information that needs looking at. Given that CRB checks are completely clear 92% of the time, the system is obviously very fast.
Amendment 111 would make three substantive changes to the barring arrangements. First, it deals with the test for barring decisions set out in clause 66. In considering the amendment, it is important to examine the provisions in that clause. The vetting and barring scheme developed by the last Government was well intentioned, but the balance was not right. The scheme that was developed was over the top and disproportionate. We have made clear our intention to scale back the scheme to common-sense levels, and that is what we are doing.
Time is running out, but let me just say that we are prepared to consider some of the suggestions on the issuing of the certificate. I will be happy to come back to that.
Diana Johnson
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) for her well informed speech. She has considerable experience in and knowledge of child protection, which she has usefully brought to our debates. I know that she, as chair of the all-party group, works tirelessly to promote the safety of vulnerable children and to ensure that they are kept as safe as possible. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman), who has a great deal of expertise, as well. Her interventions were a useful contribution to the debate, raising some of the key issues.
I am concerned about the Government’s response to the genuine concerns expressed by employers and voluntary groups about the information they feel they should have to help them in decision making. I still do not understand why the Minister feels that we should not use the ISA’s great knowledge and expertise in child protection and keeping vulnerable people safe. The ISA looks at all sorts of information. Why should that information not be made available to prospective employers or voluntary groups and charities?
Let me make a special plea for voluntary groups, which often rely on individuals to give up their time to run, for example, the Sunday football league in the local park. Those groups often do not have great knowledge of the CRB system, but would greatly benefit from knowing that the experts at the ISA had looked carefully into a person and formed a judgment that they should be barred. I still do not understand why the Government are so against sharing that information. Most members of the general public would think that if someone is on a barred list, that information should be made available to employers and organisations though which that person is likely to come into contact with children and vulnerable people. I ask the Minister to think hard before turning her face against that provision.
I made it clear that I agree with the Minister about the importance of pursuing people through the courts whenever possible, and of ensuring that people feel confident about taking allegations to the police where they feel that behaviour in a school or care home has been unacceptable. We all support that, but it will not always happen. The Minister failed to address those cases where information is not shared with the police; a barring decision has been made by the ISA, but that information will appear nowhere on a standard or enhanced CRB certificate. That means that a Sunday football club might well have organising the football teams and supervising the children a coach that no one knows has been barred from working with children. As my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington said, the vast majority of parents would be horrified to think that such a situation could arise when that information is readily available from the ISA and could have been provided to keep those children safe. That is an important point.
I also want to make a plea for small employers that do not have large human resources departments and do not have the capacity to spend time going through all the procedures that the big companies can. I imagine Tesco and Sainsbury’s have large HR departments that can process applications, take up references and do everything else that has to be done, but small employers, with perhaps just two or three people working for them, are different. That sort of employer will have to get to grips with a whole new system of CRB checks, online updating and all the rest of it. The Minister fails to understand the reality of modern businesses in this country or how complicated the new system will appear to many small businesses.
Lynne Featherstone
Will the hon. Lady explain how much more complicated it will be than the previous system?
Diana Johnson
I have set out the problem in the amendments. Making the certificate available only to the individual rather than to the individual and the prospective employer, as currently happens, is fraught with difficulties. Those who want to use the system for their own ends will find ways around the fact that the certificate does not go directly to the employer.
Lynne Featherstone
It might give the hon. Lady some heart if I say that we have listened very carefully to that argument and we are considering whether it would be possible to send notification of a certificate that has not been sent, perhaps going even further than she suggests in telling the prospective organisation or employer that it is clear of anything that needs checking. As I say, we are considering that at the moment.
Diana Johnson
Let me repeat a comment I made yesterday in a debate on wheel-clamping: one of the problems with this Government is that they rush into legislation without taking the time to consider the practical implications. We are now at the Report stage of the Protection of Freedoms Bill, yet the Minister now says that the Government might well consider looking at the practicalities of the system that they are going to bring in—a system that will cost millions of pounds and cause a great deal of concern to businesses, the voluntary sector and sports groups. I think the Minister should reflect on that.
Lynne Featherstone
I think the hon. Lady should reflect on the fact that we have listened, that we are working with all the associations and that we are willing to make changes, whatever stage of the Bill we are at.
Diana Johnson
Goodness, it is like the Health and Social Care Bill all over again! At this point, perhaps I should move on and speak to the Opposition amendments.
I genuinely believe that the protection of children and vulnerable adults is a matter of concern to us all, in all parts of the House; we want to make sure that we get this right. That is why the Labour Front-Bench team tabled the amendments, based on the advice of experts in the field and in response to the organisations that are asking for information to be made available to them so that they can do the right thing and keep children and vulnerable adults safe.
I am worried by the Minister’s reluctance to acknowledge some of the important issues. The taxi driver example I provided is a real-life example that was pointed out to me yesterday. It applies to someone who, I accept, is not working in regulated activity. The standard criminal record check is the one normally used for taxi drivers, but this person was working with children on an irregular basis, despite the clear allegations that the person had wanted to abduct children in the past. The taxi company, which acted perfectly reasonably in the belief that this was a person with no convictions, allowed him to go out and ferry children around once or twice a month. What he had done was on his record, but the taxi company did not have access to the information. Many people would be worried to know that such information was not made available to an employer who was trying to do their best.
Lynne Featherstone
The situation that the hon. Lady raises arises under the existing rules.
Diana Johnson
The problem is that the barring information is not made available. The point of our new clause is to ensure that barring information relating to individuals judged to be a threat to children should be made available when someone applies for a CRB check. That is the point.
The Minister made a point about locus and about employers and voluntary groups making judgments using their own common sense. Of course we want people to do that; of course we want people to take responsibility for their actions, but I fail to understand why the Minister will not allow individuals, organisations or employers to have all the information, so that they can make proper decisions about who they employ and who they allow to volunteer in their organisations.
I shall divide the House on new clause 18, which deals with revealing barred status when a CRB check is applied for, and I shall also press amendment 111 to clause 66. As we have discussed, the vast majority of people in this country would be horrified to know that the Government no longer wish to put serious criminals on a barred list to protect children. Even at this late stage, I ask the Minister to think again about whether that is the way the Government want to go.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 114, in page 45, line 22, leave out ‘day to day’ and insert ‘close and constant’.
Amendment 115, in page 46, line 27, leave out ‘day to day’ and insert ‘close and constant’.
Amendment 113, in page 46, leave out lines 29 to 40.
Amendment 116, in page 46, line 37, leave out ‘day to day’ and insert ‘close and constant’.
Government amendments 22 and 63.
Diana Johnson
We debated regulated activity and supervision in Committee. [Interruption.] These amendments address those issues. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I ask those Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quietly while we continue our consideration of the Bill. This is a timed debate.
Diana Johnson
As I was saying, these amendments deal with regulated activity relating to children and we discussed that, and the closely related issue of supervision, at length in Committee. I should make it clear that these are probing amendments and I will not press any of them to a Division. I would, however, be interested to hear the Minister’s views on the issues that the amendments address.
We have concerns about the current drafting of these provisions. If a person has contact with a child it will generally be in regulated activity, but that is not always the case. For instance, a volunteer in a school classroom where there is a teacher present would not be seen to be in regulated activity so would not be subject to any form of Criminal Records Bureau check or barred status check.
The Sport and Recreation Alliance, Fair Play for Children and other charities have highlighted the problems in using the notion of supervision for deciding whether a person is in a position to exploit their relationship with children. That person could, as I have just said, be a volunteer in a classroom listening to children read, or a volunteer helping the school caretaker, and they are therefore able to build relationships with the pupils as they carry out their voluntary role. The problem is not the activity they are performing, which could well be properly supervised; rather, it is the fact that they are building relationships with children which they might go on to exploit. The charities I mentioned point out that supervision is an inappropriate notion in this context as it ignores this secondary access that can be used to build up a relationship with a child or vulnerable adult. If someone is in such a position of trust, they might later take action that could be detrimental to the child or vulnerable adult.
Meg Munn
May I reiterate the concern that is felt? The failure to provide barred status information on people in these unregulated areas is precisely the loophole that the Government should be closing, because if somebody is a risk to children and is having regular contact with them, albeit supervised, the person who is taking them on as a volunteer should have the necessary information to decide whether that is appropriate.
Diana Johnson
My hon. Friend puts the case very well, and I hope the Minister will reflect on the issue of barred status information not being made available—which we have just voted on—and on this whole area of supervision, and consider whether to redefine or remove entirely the concept of supervision.
Let me discuss the example of David Lawrence. For many years he was a football coach volunteering for a team in a junior league in the Avon area. In the late 1990s, working with Fair Play for Children, the Football League tightened its safeguarding procedures and uncovered a string of allegations made against Mr Lawrence dating back to the 1970s, but he had no convictions. He was removed from the football club and shortly afterwards was convicted of an offence against a young boy. Shockingly, just two months after release, in the early 2000s, he was once again volunteering at a local football club. It was a club in a league affiliated with the Football Association, but it was not conducting even basic checks on those who volunteered with it. Mr Lawrence was in a series of supervised volunteer positions, but if this Bill is passed in its current form there will be no legal requirement to conduct any checks on his background. The case shows that statutory regulation is needed to force activity providers to conduct background checks on individuals. Because so much of the relevant information is often soft information—we have just debated that at length—these background checks should go through the Independent Safeguarding Authority.
A redefinition of “supervision” is set out in amendments 114 to 116, which seek to deal with the Government’s definition of the term. We discussed that at great length in Committee, including a number of different options for the definition. Using a definition of “day to day” supervision to cover people such as a football coach or an assistant in a school classroom is not sufficient, as it allows individuals to be left unsupervised for long periods. For example, a football coach could take the same group of children to a different part of a playing field regularly—on a weekly basis—and that is of concern. The definition would also allow a volunteer at a drama group to teach mime to a group of children in a different room from the person supposed to be supervising them. Someone with that ability to take part in activities away from where their supervisor is should be subject to background checks.
A survey conducted by the National Confederation of Parent Teacher Associations suggested that three quarters of parents want background checks to be carried out unless they have personally chosen the person who has access to their child. The brief on which the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children led stated:
“We are concerned that the proposed definition of regulated activity does not cover some groups of people who have frequent and close contact with children. This creates risks for children. Those who seek to harm children can be predatory and manipulative. If certain types of work are exempt from vetting and barring, in some sectors or settings, but not in others, dangerous adults are likely to target those organisations with weaker arrangements.”
It continues:
“Our key outstanding concern is about the exclusion of supervised work from regulated activity: The Bill exempts many positions from regulated activity simply by virtue of them being under ‘regular day to day supervision’. However supervised employees and volunteers are still able to develop relationships with children which could be exploited. For example, a volunteer teaching assistant in a classroom of 30 children, with only light-touch supervision by the classroom teacher, has plenty of opportunity to develop inappropriate relationships and groom children.
The definition of ‘regular day to day supervision’ is not sufficient because it could be understood to include individuals who have a ‘supervisor’ on site, but who are able to work with groups of children on their own for significant periods of time, with no one directly supervising their work.”
The first recommendation in the report by the all-party group on child protection was to tighten up the definition of “supervision”. In its response to that report, the Home Office said that it agreed that regulated activity should cover all those positions where individuals have close contact and can develop trusting relationships with children. Unfortunately, the Government have not tabled any amendments to allow us to deal with that.
We welcome Government amendments 22 and 63. We are glad that the Government have heeded the calls made by the Opposition and by leading charities in the area, including the NSPCC, to introduce statutory guidance on the issue of supervision.
Jim Shannon
One of the concerns that many people and lots of organisations have about supervision—this has been expressed to me and I suspect to many others in the House—is the level of complexity and the degree of risk involved. Does the hon. Lady feel that the Government should reconsider that issue and how they can best address it to everyone’s satisfaction?
Diana Johnson
The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. All members of the Public Bill Committee had real concerns about this issue, and wanted further explanation and statutory guidance to be produced by the Government. We are therefore pleased that these amendments will assist that definition, but we are also concerned that we have not had an opportunity in the House to debate and discuss exactly what “regulated activity” and “supervision” are, how they fit together and whether or not we need to revisit the matter. I hope the Minister will be able to give an assurance that the protection set out in the Bill and these Government amendments will be sufficient to deal with the kind of examples that I have given, where people have been able to abuse their position in schools, charities or other voluntary sector groups.
The all-party group’s second recommendation was that the Government should introduce statutory guidance, so again this move is to be welcomed. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to those points.
Lynne Featherstone
There is not much time available, so I shall be brief. There was considerable discussion in Committee about the nature of “supervision”. The Bill describes “supervised work” as being
“any such work which is, on a regular basis, subject to the day to day supervision of another person who is engaging in regulated activity relating to children”.
That is a tight definition. Supervision must be ongoing, so a once-a-week meeting between the supervisor and supervised would not meet the requirement. The supervision must be on a daily basis and it must be done by someone who is in regulated activity themselves and, therefore, has been checked against the barred list.
We believe that our proposals in this part of the Bill strike a better balance between the roles played by the state and the employers in situ in protecting the vulnerable. Those activities presenting the greatest risks, such as unsupervised work with children or vulnerable adults, remain subject to the central barring and vetting arrangements. We do not think those arrangements are necessary where regular supervision takes place on a daily basis. I should emphasise that that does not mean that checks should not, or cannot, be carried out in relation to work that falls outside regulated activity.
Lastly, I wish to say that I am glad that the hon. Lady is pleased with our movement on statutory guidance.
Diana Johnson
As I said, I do not intend to press the amendment to a Division and I am pleased that the Government have seen the sense in having statutory guidance on supervision. It is unfortunate that the House has not had the opportunity to consider any draft guidance that the Government might wish to introduce, although I assume that we will see that later in the day.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; I am conscious of the time. Does she feel that this measure is about reducing the number of those being checked? If it is, it is flawed. That is one of my concerns. Most employers will carry out a non-regulated activity that will not require the barred list information or an enhanced disclosure. In other words, things will thereby not be done in the way they should to get full disclosure. I know that we are not going to divide the House on this point, but I am very concerned about what it means.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Does the hon. Lady wish to withdraw the amendment?
Diana Johnson
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.