Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, given that my hard-working noble friend Lord Howe deserves at least a short break, I shall be addressing these amendments. If I do not cover them sufficiently comprehensively, given the time, I shall be very happy to write to noble Lords.

This is a very large group of amendments covering Clauses 8, 9, 14 and 19, which together set out the fundamental legislative basis for the new public health system. I thank noble Lords for their general welcome of these provisions, which of course put public health very much front and centre in the new system.

The Public Health White Paper sets out the Government’s commitment to protecting the population from serious health threats, helping people to live longer and to enjoy healthier and more fulfilling lives, and to improving the health of the poorest the fastest. At a national level, there is a clear rationale for accountability for health protection to rest with the Secretary of State. The nature of various threats to health are not, of course, always amenable to individual or local action. They require a clear line of sight from the Secretary of State down to local services.

Clause 8 inserts new Section 2A and gives the Secretary of State a new duty to take steps to protect the health of the public in England. In practice, Public Health England, the national component of the new public health system, will play a key role in health protection, bringing together a fragmented system and strengthening the national response on emergency preparedness. It is our intention that it will be an executive agency of the Department of Health. Public Health England as an executive agency will have an operational distinctiveness that will allow it to build and maintain its own identity. Agency status will support the ability of scientists in Public Health England to give expert, objective and impartial scientific advice, which noble Lords have called for, to both the Secretary of State and more widely. I entirely share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that we must make use of the best scientific and other evidence available. We intend to set out clear proposals shortly on how the Secretary of State and Public Health England will receive professional advice. I am confident that those proposals will at least match the intention of the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Warner]

I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness on her debut at this point, but does she understand that by its very nature an executive agency is within a government department and does not have the same level of independence as a non-departmental public body? We are seeing played out in the public arena at present some of the consequences when there is disagreement between people in an executive agency and a Minister. That concerning the Home Office is currently being played out on the front pages of our newspapers. Does she agree with me and, I think, my noble friend Lord Turnberg, that having scientists in an executive agency fetters their freedom compared with in a non-departmental public body?

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Lord flags up a concern that has been expressed about the independence of the new organisation. I would point out the example of the Met Office, which is arranged in a similar way. What it does on climate change may not always go down well with the Government of the day, yet it has no reluctance in coming forward with the evidence that it has.

It is extremely important that it should have that expert advisory position. That is why it was moved out of the Department of Health, which was the original proposal. The noble Lord will know that it was going to be within the Department of Health, but the Future Forum flagged up that concern and the decision was taken that it be arranged in this way, to address the points that the noble Lord has raised.

Coming back to what I was saying about the Health Protection Agency, I remind noble Lords that Clause 53 abolishes that agency and repeals the Health Protection Agency Act 2004. That is central to the Government’s plans for unifying national health protection activity and creating a more transparent and accountable service under the Secretary of State. In so many ways the Health Protection Agency has done an outstanding job, and we certainly pay tribute to those who have worked within it. It has established an outstanding international reputation, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, pointed out. Public Health England will be able to build on that recognised expertise not only from the Health Protection Agency but from other organisations that we can draw into our public health system. There was talk about whether this should be a special health authority. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said that he wished to address this later on, so no doubt we will come back to this and to the points the noble Lord, Lord Warner, made about independence and why we are not proposing to do things in quite that way.

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[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I am grateful for the reassurance that the noble Baroness does not see any way of uncoupling diagnosis from treatment. I am not terribly comfortable with the furniture analogy. Pieces of furniture are not as complex and integrated as human bodies.

[Baroness Northover]

I have a feeling that carpenters might disagree. Nevertheless, I take on board what the noble Baroness says, and I hope that I have reassured her.

Where was I? I think that I have covered the points spelled out by various noble Lords on research and evidence. Research and evidence would rightly run right the way through these arrangements, and I would have expected noble Lords to flag this up. It is absolutely crucial that evidence underpins the work that is done. I heard what was said about nudging, and so on. The Select Committee itself said that it welcomed the exploration of new ways of doing things, provided that they do not dislodge other ways of assessing things. It is extremely important that, in all these areas, you assess what the impact of something is. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured. We will come on to this in a minute.

[Lord Warner]

I suggest the noble Baroness reads the report of the inquiry chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, which makes it very clear that the scientific evidence to back up nudge as a way forward is extremely weak.

[Baroness Northover]

I hear what the noble Lord says. To judge so quickly something which has only exploded on to the agenda relatively recently does not seem to me to be terribly scientific. As a former social scientist, I do not think that that is giving quite enough time to assess it. However, the Government absolutely hear what the noble Lord says. We need a range of ways of exploring things. If people suggest ways of probing and investigating areas, then all those areas need to be assessed properly, and given due time to take effect.

I was about to come on to the point that, in this Bill—noble Lords have flagged this up—there is provision for continuing to measure children even though that public health responsibility has gone over to local authorities. It underpins our understanding of the extent to which we have obesity among children. It is extremely important that it is carried forward, and I think that that bears out the Government’s commitment to continued research.

I have covered patient records. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, asked about child services. I know that my noble friend will be coming back into full view in a minute, and will address some of these areas, so maybe that is best covered then. We are extremely concerned to make sure that, across all areas, these matters are properly co-ordinated.

I have addressed the point raised about the separate annual reports. The Secretary of State is reporting generally, across all these areas. I hope that I have not missed out any key areas. There was a question from the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, about Public Health England. It will indeed be able to receive research funding from the majority of sources from which the HPA is currently receiving research income. This was a key point that was flagged up by noble Lords last night, and it has been confirmed. Research is clearly vital for the specialist expertise required in Public Health England.

I appreciate noble Lords’ probing on all these important areas, but I hope that at this stage the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply, although I shall resist the temptation to follow her into the realm of rearranging the furniture or even the deckchairs on the NHS “Titanic”. She rather missed the point of Amendment 69ZA, which adds to the provision in the Bill that will require each local authority to,

“take such steps as it considers appropriate for improving the health of the people in its area”,

the duty to take such steps as are appropriate to tackle the problems of health inequalities. That is the point that the amendment seeks to enshrine in the Bill. It is a duty that will lie on the Secretary of State for national purposes, but not for local purposes.

[Baroness Northover]

I am sorry that the noble Lord feels that I did not adequately deal with that. The point I made is that moving public health to local authorities will join up a lot of the other factors—housing, the environment and so on—for which they have responsibilities. As the Marmot review highlighted, that should help to address some of those areas.

It is also worth bearing in mind that the Equality Act introduced by the previous Government is relevant across all these areas and in terms of the groups with protected characteristics. Many of those who suffer from particularly bad health would be covered by that.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, it is surely clearer to have in one place the responsibility for reducing health inequalities. The amendment simply adds to the Bill:

“and shall, in doing so, take such steps as are appropriate to reduce health inequalities”.

That is the right place to have it when one is delegating that responsibility. The noble Baroness referred to the ring-fenced grant, which will, of course, apply to the public health function but, as she has just said, the public health function is not confined to what might be described as health expenditure. This duty to reduce health inequalities as part of local government’s new responsibilities should be embodied in statute, to ensure it in the consideration of the rest of local authorities’ functions and budgets.

I noted the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who is not in her place. She seemed to think that the Government have given independence to public health bodies. I hope she is right in her inference, but I am not so sure. We will return to this matter when we discuss Public Health England and other aspects of the Bill, including the role of public health specialists and directors of public health within local government. There are amendments that reinforce the independence of such postholders which are necessary additions to the Bill. I accept that the Government’s aspirations may be in line with that, but it seems to me that the Bill does not go far enough in providing them.

I want to return briefly to my amendment, which I do not think the Minister referred to, which is based on the recommendations of the Select Committee report on the public health impact of budget changes for the national level of public health, which affects Public Health England and the local authorities. I refer to the observations of the Select Committee:

“The Department of Health must also make clear how the actual level of funding for public health will relate to the historic baseline. We seek reassurance from the Department that, in setting the public health budget, it will take account of objective measures of need. This must apply in respect of both the national budget and allocations to local authorities”.

The next paragraph says:

“Although the Department of Health states that, in the current reduction of NHS management and administration costs, frontline public health services are being protected, we have heard evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, the Department has failed to give a convincing account of its distinction between frontline and non-frontline spending in public health services. Unless it can do so, the suspicion will remain that it is an arbitrary distinction and that public health services are suffering, and will suffer, in consequence of the cuts that are being made”.

In relation to the health premium, which as yet we have barely explored, the committee said:

“We are concerned about the proposed introduction of the Health Premium. We believe there is a significant risk that, by targeting resources away from the areas with the most significant continuing problems, it will undermine their ability to intervene effectively and thereby further widen health inequalities. Although many witnesses welcomed the proposed ring-fencing of public health budgets … and the Committee understands the short-term attractions of this approach, it does not believe it represents a desirable long term development”.

After further analysis, the committee said that,

“the ring-fenced public health budget should operate for no more than three years”.

[Baroness Northover]

I am sorry that the noble Lord thought I did not cover the first point. I did not make myself clear. With regard to the total figure for the health premium, which I mentioned briefly—and the Department of Health will be publishing something shortly—there is consultation on that. There is always controversy over how best to do that. I recognise what the Health Select Committee says about not wanting to have an inadvertent removal of money from where it is most needed to an area that might need it less, which appears to have done better and so on. These things are clearly very complex, as the noble Lord will know, and there is consultation on how best that should be taken forward so that it is most effective and does not have that unintended consequence.

[Lord Beecham]

Of course there is consultation going on. It has been going on for an inordinate amount of time and we need to see the outcome of that—as indeed does local government—during the passage of this Bill, I hope. These are critically important matters which at the moment remain opaque, to put it mildly. Of course there will be a report in due course, but the financial aspects of that report must be consistent with the thrust of the policy, and on that we are clearly not in a position to make a judgment. This is a matter to which we will clearly have to return, possibly in conjunction with the Bill, possibly separately. If local authorities are to undertake these increased responsibilities, there will have to be a satisfactory system to make possible the operation of the machinery that the Bill is creating.

Having said that, I acknowledge that these are all probing amendments. I hope that the Government will look at some of them with a view to possibly adopting them in future. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly about the importance of information in an early diagnosis. I have two areas to focus on. First, people with learning disabilities often get a late diagnosis and suffer terribly because of it, with an earlier death as a consequence for many. Often that is because of a lack of accessible information. I speak as the executive chair of a social enterprise, called Beyond Words, which designs pictorial information to try to bring health and social care information to people who cannot read. Any public health information campaigns need to remember that not everybody can read information easily; it has to be designed to be inclusive.

Secondly, I have a question about how the accessibility of information about the bureaucratic structures of the NHS will help with early diagnosis. This is to do with the current “choose and book” system. Something that has happened to a close relative of mind in the past few weeks made me realise that I do not know how the Bill is addressing the whole issue of better choice for patients. I will briefly tell noble Lords the story. It is about somebody who needs an early diagnosis for what seems like a serious, rare, long-term condition and who has been referred through the choose and book system to four different hospitals to see four different specialists in different areas, where those specialists cannot easily communicate with each other because their hospital systems do not speak to each other. The person concerned chose the hospitals that offered the earliest appointments, which is what most people do and what choose and book offers you. You take the first appointment because you are worried, but the hospital consultant is unable to refer to a consultant in the same hospital with whom they would be able to consult. The patient has to go back to the GP and back through the choose and book system. It is not working.

There is something about information and early diagnosis here as well. I could not see where, apart from under information, I could raise this issue. I look forward to hearing a response from the Minister.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, Amendments 65A, 71ZA, 97A and 133A seek to raise the priority within the Bill of public health information advice designed to encourage the early diagnosis of serious conditions. Improving early diagnosis is an important objective across the whole health system, which includes the new public health system. I am very grateful to noble Lords for raising such a significant issue.

I completely agree with my noble friend Lord Sharkey as to the important role of information advice campaigns. I hope that I can reassure him that the changes to public health will not see the end of such campaigns. Where such campaigns work, we want to see more of them. We know how important early diagnosis is in treating cancer, for example. Thus, people coming forward for bowel cancer screening can be diagnosed at a stage where the disease is totally curable.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Masham and Lady Gould, emphasised other areas in which treatment is more effective earlier but also where there is a risk of infection, such as HIV, TB, hepatitis and meningitis. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, flagged up other STDs, among other issues. We are well aware of the importance of these areas. This is also where local authorities’ involvement in public health should assist rather than detract. The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, rightly flagged up this issue in relation to HIV/AIDS. No doubt we will return specifically to the points that she has raised when we debate HIV/AIDS on 1 December, World AIDS day, a debate to which I am responding. I look forward very much to our discussions then.

We will no doubt come back later to wider discussions of Public Heath England and the directors of public health, to which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred. Perhaps his notions can be revisited then when attached to the appropriate amendments.

As I outlined in the debate on the previous group of amendments, Clause 8 sets out the Secretary of State’s new duty to take steps to protect public health. It illustrates this duty with a list of steps that would be appropriate for the Secretary of State to take. That list includes the provision of information and advice. Amendment 65A would amplify that to specify that this could include information in campaigns around early diagnosis. I should explain that the list in Clause 8 is neither prescriptive nor exhaustive. The amendment would not therefore either require or give the Secretary of State a new power to do anything that the clause does not already accommodate.

Similarly, Amendment 71ZA would have the equivalent effect on a list of steps that local authorities may take under their new duty to improve public health. As we have already said, local authorities’ new responsibility will include behavioural and lifestyle campaigns to prevent serious illness and they will be funded accordingly. The Department of Health is also working with stakeholders from the NHS, local government and voluntary and community sectors to finalise the operational design of the new public health system. We expect to publish proposals shortly and they will set out how we expect to promote early diagnosis through the system.

Of course, the NHS will continue to play an important part in public health, a point emphasised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, earlier. The Bill allows the Secretary of State to mandate or agree particular services that will be the responsibility of the NHS Commissioning Board. Amendment 97A seeks to ensure that he will consider early diagnosis campaigns when he does so. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, will be reassured that this is something which we are already considering. I can also reassure noble Lords that the objective of Amendment 133A is already met by the clause as drafted. Where the Commissioning Board is engaged in early diagnosis campaigns, then the duty to promote the integration of services would automatically apply to those campaigns just as they would to any other health, or health-related, services.

I emphasise that we especially expect advice and information to continue to play a major role in early diagnosis and local authorities will be able to contribute to that. Meanwhile, Public Health England, too, will be able to manage and support effective national campaigns. We will be publishing further detail shortly on how the different levels of the system will work.

In short, I believe that we are in total agreement with noble Lords about the principles underlying their amendments and with what noble Lords have said in the debate. We share their desire for improvement in this area. We all know what huge potential early diagnosis offers and the vital importance in this of public health campaigns. The Bill as drafted offers all the necessary support for that ambition. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will accept that and withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, as we are in Committee, I can repair my omission in failing to anticipate the Minister’s response to what has been a very good debate. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, on tabling these amendments. I take issue with him slightly over one matter he mentioned: the relative performance of this country in terms of cancer survival rates. Recent reports make clear that they have improved substantially and are now beginning to outstrip those of other comparable health services. However, that does not detract at all from the thrust of the amendments.

The Minister referred to bowel cancer screening. That is but one example of the importance of early diagnosis, and public information can certainly assist in that context. As some of your Lordships may recall, I have some personal experience of this because my wife died of colon cancer last year. Her symptom was constipation, which is not a predominant symptom. Relatively speaking it is a less frequent symptom, but even now it is not something that some of the literature and material produced by cancer charities refers to. That is an illustration of the need for clear information to be given. There has been a very successful campaign about stroke, which was temporarily halted and then resumed. There is clearly a role for that kind of campaign. I should have thought that the Government could accede to the request for these duties and responsibilities to be included in the Bill.

Although I certainly strongly support the amendments, there are perhaps two riders that I might add. The first is that information, which of course can be in many forms, is not of itself necessarily enough. For example, information in labelling on food does not convey very much to people. This is an example of nudging not being enough. In some cases what is needed, apart from information, is action, and I hope that, as part of their public health agenda, the Government will take a rather firmer line in making requirements of the food industry and others concerning what goes into the nation’s diet.

The other rider relates to the efficacy of some kinds of campaigning. This does need to be measured. Some campaigns—noble Lords have referred to them—have been extremely effective; others, less so. The rather dramatic advertising about HIV and AIDS in the early days was not thought to have been particularly effective. It seems to me that in the interests of effectiveness and efficiency—that is, in terms of the expenditure involved—we need to evaluate what sort of campaigning and publicity works.

With all those qualifications, such as they are, I strongly support the noble Lord’s amendments. I hope that the Government will take another look at whether sending a very clear signal by having these kinds of amendments made to the Bill would assist what we all agree across the House is a prime responsibility and a prime opportunity for the Government to advance the public health agenda.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, my apologies if I leapt up far too soon. I caught the noble Lord’s colleague’s eye and it looked as though no one would be speaking from that side of the Chamber. However, I am incredibly glad to hear what is in fact cross-party support for this kind of campaign. The noble Lord is absolutely right: the part that charities play and have played in many of these campaigns is absolutely critical, not the least of which is Cancer Research UK and its various campaigns. Therefore, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution.

[Lord Sharkey]

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to the amendments and I thank the Minister for her response. I should also like to register the propensity of all Governments to make sudden cuts to public information campaigns. Last year, the Government announced a freeze on their £540 million annual publicity budget. On 29 May this year, they announced a partial thaw, with expenditure of £44 million on four campaigns in England. This followed the publication of a Department of Health report called Changing Behaviour, Improving Outcomes, which found that, for example, after the cessation of campaigns, calls to the Change4Life information line fell by 90 per cent, calls to the FRANK drugs line fell by 22 per cent and visits to the NHS Smokefree website fell by 50 per cent.

All that illustrates my continuing concern that it is too easy to cut public health information campaigns and that it might be even easier in devolved organisations. Therefore, notwithstanding the Minister’s helpful response, I continue to believe that we need safeguards against such cuts written into the Bill. I look forward to discussing this again on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

My Lords, it is interesting that there is not a universally accepted definition of public health. There are, however, broad domains of public health, be they health improvement, health protection or health services. The Faculty of Public Health defines public health as:

“the science and art of promoting and protecting health and wellbeing, preventing ill-health and prolonging life through the organised efforts of society”.

That is a very broad definition. It could almost include every range of local government services. It seems to me that there is a need for some guidance on what aspects should be included in the ring-fenced budget. We have previously been told that there will be no breakdown of the budget within that ring-fencing, which makes it even more important that some guidelines are laid down. The frequent reply from the Minister has been that we leave it to each local authority to determine what public health is. But while I appreciate that there will be a variation in needs between different authorities in different areas, some guidance and priorities might be useful to them.

I am delighted that my noble friend has highlighted sexual health as being important because there is a great deal of concern that sexual health will not be a favoured issue for many local authorities. Furthermore, as regards HIV for instance, there is no understanding that there is all too often a relationship between the required long-term care and other aspects of local government services. There is also concern that, unless it is highlighted, there will be a lack of understanding by local authorities of the divide within the commissioning arrangements for HIV and contraceptive services between the National Commissioning Board’s responsibilities and their own—for prevention and testing in the case of HIV and for the establishment of clinics for special cases in the case of contraception. Guidance would give local authorities greater clarity of their roles and responsibilities and the fact that they are a key player in this process of integration. I am sorry to refer again to the response to the Select Committee report on HIV and AIDS, but it is so topical. The Government identify that integration where possible—whatever that means—will be by the NHS Commissioning Board, clinical commissioning groups and health and well-being boards. That will apply to all health services so there is no need to have a special duty applying to the integration of specific services, such as sexual health and HIV. However, I think that is a misjudgment. Having some identification priorities would give guidance as to which areas require special duties.

At Second Reading, the Minister referred to the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation, which is an independent expert committee that has been asked to advise on a public health formula to inform the distribution of the public health grant across local authorities, saying that it intends to publish further detail later this year. So I appreciate that we are not going to get the detail for which I would have asked on the distribution of that grant. If we could get some detail, that would be very helpful, but perhaps I may remind the Minister that there is only two months left this year and I hope that we will get that response before the end of it. The calculation of spend on public health, including sexual health services, must be based on robust and accurate data, so can the Minister identify how that can be achieved without a specific definition of what it should include? I appreciate that the Minister has so far always rejected the idea of coming up with a definition and he certainly might not agree with the list that is before him. Nevertheless, I would be grateful if he could rethink this. There needs to be some principle laid down to make sure that local authorities understand what public health actually means.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, Amendment 66 would add alcohol services to the list of examples that the Secretary of State may take under his new duty to protect health and Amendment 74B would add a number of steps, including one on alcohol, to the equivalent list of steps for local authorities to take up under their new duty. I appreciate the decision by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to regroup and we will discuss her amendments a little later. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, followed by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, decided that the group should stay in place.

Adding to the Bill's list of steps that may be taken may highlight an issue but would not materially alter the situation. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, with her governmental background, is clearly extremely familiar with the function served by these indicative lists. I appreciate her indication that she is probing on this. Obviously it is extremely important in these different areas.

I also note the definition of public health that the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, quoted. I scribbled down the part about the science and art of promoting health and well-being through the organised efforts of society. That illustrates that this is an evolving and moving area. We hope that it will evolve and move because public health has now been put with local authorities. By joining up all the different areas we wish to join up, we hope that the field of public health will move along. Therefore, it is not appropriate to put in the Bill such a definition, which is set at a particular time, because of the evolution that I hope will expand in a way that the noble Baroness—who clearly is not satisfied—will be happy with.

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

We are talking about a ring-fenced budget; we are not talking about a general local government budget. Therefore, there must be some guidance on what should go into that budget. I do not mind whether it is a definition in the Bill or guidance, but something must be done to make sure that we know what is in the ring-fenced budget.

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. This is not simply philosophy. Therefore, regulations will provide that guidance. In the mean time, I say that this is an issue on which we have spent considerable time working. She is probably aware of the July 2011 update to the public health White Paper. If she is not, I suggest that she looks at it. Paragraph A.10 on page 27 contains a list of the areas in which we expect local authorities to engage. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, will be pleased that the list starts with tobacco control. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, may note that the second item is alcohol and drug-misuse services. Other issues that noble Lords have mentioned are also listed, such as obesity and community nutrition initiatives. The list is long.

[Baroness Thornton]

The Minister is giving a list—and there are at least two further lists in Clauses 8 and 9. I cannot see why my list should not be in there, too.

[Baroness Northover]

I can see the temptation. The list in the Bill is indicative. These lists are always subject to much debate about what goes in and what stays out. I fully understand why the noble Baroness wishes to add her list. However, we would resist adding to the list in the Bill, which is, as she knows, indicative. We appreciate people's contributions to what needs to be covered in these areas. I point out to her that the list—no doubt we will spend many hours debating the regulations—includes all sorts of things, such as mental health services and dental public health services. I will not read out the whole list. If noble Lords think that something is on it that should not be there, or that other things that are not on it should be, I am sure that we will consider those points as we debate the regulations.

I noted a response to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, but I think that I may be referring to a previous debate. She is absolutely right to emphasise that we have to make sure that everything we do is patient-centred. All the changes must focus on that. It is a challenge for everybody. Perhaps people have tried to do it before. No doubt we will have problems trying to do it ourselves, now and in the future, but that has to be the focus. Therefore, we have to remember the diversity of the patients that we are talking about. I am sorry; that answer belonged in an earlier debate.

I know that we will return later to debate alcohol. I hope that noble Lords will not press the amendments in this group.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, in my youth—your Lordships might think it a rather sad youth—I was, at age 25, opposition spokesman on Newcastle City Council on a pre-Seebohm health committee, which had two remarkably effective and powerful chief officers. One was the medical officer of health, and the other was the chief public health officer. That was the designation of what I suspect we would now call environmental health officers. They were a very powerful combination and very influential within the council. But the point is that they were working together, which is precisely what my noble friend’s amendment seeks to achieve at national level. In later debates we will undoubtedly discuss the role at local level. It is absolutely right to identify this as a core function.

The noble Lord, Lord Rea, referred to one aspect of the role of such officers in environmental issues affecting public health. Perhaps I may revert for a moment to the previous debate and my noble friend Lady Thornton’s proposal to list some matters for inclusion as public health issues in the scope of the duties of local authorities and the Government. Several of those—including nutrition, air and water quality, adequate housing standards, fuel poverty, and possibly even occupational health—will fall within the domain precisely of this kind of appointment. It therefore seems to me that working alongside the chief medical officer of health, or reporting to him—a position of the kind covered by my noble friend’s amendment— would be entirely appropriate and effective. That binary combination or approach would ensure that, across the range of public health issues, there would be the best leadership and the best advice would be available to Ministers at national level and, similarly, at the local level. If it were to be matched, as I hope it would be, that advice would be available to local authorities.

The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, referred to variations in the practice of local authorities in terms of the resources they devote to this topic. That was undoubtedly true in the past and will no doubt be true in the future, but it is also true at present. The practice of primary care trusts in terms of the way that they allocate budgets is by no means uniform, although I am not necessarily suggesting that it should be. But that is precisely one of the difficulties that I suspect we will encounter when the Government are forced to determine how much is currently being spent, how much perhaps should be spent and how much is to be allocated through any formula-based system under the ring-fencing scheme to be pronounced.

Individual authorities will have different ways of applying core funding, but that does not represent a substantive change from what we have now. Indeed, I would hope that, given greater public accountability, we will have a better outcome than we have had in the existing pattern. I warmly endorse my noble friend’s amendment.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for giving me the opportunity to highlight the outstanding work that environmental health officers carry out in district councils as well as in the private and voluntary sectors. The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, to which he referred, also does an excellent job in presenting the issues nationally and in liaising with central government. They will all continue to play a crucial and developing role in public health.

The noble Lord has long been a doughty fighter on environmental issues. I remember my astonishment when, as a Minister, he granted an amendment which I had tabled that he had been refused permission to grant. I therefore feel very mean in suggesting that I will not be reciprocating today. However, when the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, raised her points, I was rather glad that, when acting on the Energy Bill in relation to the point for which she fought on preventing carbon monoxide poisoning, I was at least able to grant something there, although I know that that was more limited than what is being sought now.

I should stress that environmental health officers, along with other local authority staff, will be very much inside the group of professionals and practitioners in local government who will form part of the wider public health workforce. Consequently, we expect many opportunities for them in the future to contribute to and to shape local plans and priorities. Surely that will help transform this area, because public health, as I indicated, needs to be defined widely. In its new location it will change in order to have the effects that we wish to see. The noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Rea, are right to urge working together, especially given the history of these officers.

At the national level, the Chief Medical Officer will have a central role in providing impartial and objective advice on public health to the Secretary of State for Health and to the Government as a whole. She will be the leading advocate for public health within, across and beyond the Government, advocating the design of policies that improve health and well-being. We are clear that this role includes advising on environmental health issues as well, and that the Chief Medical Officer will in turn continue to be able to seek such advice on environmental health and other issues whenever necessary just as she can do now. The Government believe that, as valuable as environmental health expertise is, this makes the post of chief environmental health officer unnecessary.

The noble Lord is of course right to urge discussion across devolved areas in all fields, as we can learn from each other. He might be reassured that the Chief Medical Officers of the various Administrations meet regularly, and that Public Health England, like the Health Protection Agency, will in some ways have a remit that extends beyond England and thus offer the chance to learn from the experience of others. We remain confident that Ministers will receive high-quality advice from the CMO on environmental health. I stress that we also need to look internationally and draw on research and experience very widely in this field. We can learn a lot from that.

The noble Lord’s amendment calls for the Secretary of State to,

“report to Parliament annually on the work of the Chief Environmental Health Officer”.

We agree on the need for transparency and believe that the Secretary of State’s accountability for public health at the national level is a major strength of the new system. This is why Clause 50 of this Bill requires the Secretary of State to publish an annual report to Parliament on the working of the comprehensive health service as a whole, which will include his and local authorities’ new public health functions.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked what the Government are going to do about ring-fencing the budget. Some of the issues that he raised were discussed in the first grouping on public health. I do not know whether he was in his place at the time. If he was not, he should be reassured that his noble friend Lord Warner intends to flag up some of the concerns that he raised in a later grouping, and we have various other groupings in which his concerns will no doubt be flagged up. I point out in relation to our discussion on the previous group that we will be using regulations to set out what essential services local authorities have to provide. Noble Lords can also see what is in the White Paper.

I want to clarify what will be covered in regulations so that if I was not clear in the last grouping, I can be clear now. Essential services that we think need to be delivered consistently across the country—for example, dealing with local emergencies—will be included in regulations. We will use publications like the updated White Paper, which I quoted earlier, to set expectations about the totality of services to be covered by the public health ring-fence. I hope that that provides clarification.

My noble friend Lord Greaves talked about the co-operation between different councils—county councils, district councils and so on. District councils have local insight and expertise. In many cases they will have the lead on key services affecting health and well-being, such as housing and environmental health. Health and well-being boards will play a big part in local health improvement activity and must find themselves able to involve local councils so that they work most effectively.

The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne—sorry to startle the noble Lord—wondered what would happen if local authorities do not carry out their duties. The Secretary of State does not have a conventional performance management role with local government—I am sure that those in local government will be pleased to know. However, he does have the power to intervene and ensure that particular services are provided if a local authority fails to do so. Local authorities will also have to account for their use of their ring-fenced grants, and the power exists to recoup money if the conditions attached to the grant are not met. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord.

In summary, it is very clear that environmental health is and will continue to be a very important component of the public health system, which will be led locally by directors of public health. I hope that the noble Lord is prepared to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply, and particularly for reminding me about the favour that I did her. It proves that Ministers can make policy at the Dispatch Box. I accepted her amendment against advice; I used the excuse that there would have been a government defeat if I had not. She cannot use that tonight because I shall not press the amendment anyway, but I am very grateful that she remembered that.

I do not want to make a long speech. The Minister said that the work of environmental health officers is absolutely fundamental. They are the unsung heroes of policing a system in this country for our citizens on a whole range of issues, whether food, air quality or other matters. The public are aware of them only when things go wrong. I am reluctant to go down this route, but I declare an interest of chairing the board of the Food Standards Agency, which is a government department, and that is why I do not speak on it in this House. Environmental officers are unsung heroes and they deserve our support. They provide a 24/7 operation and they go into areas where, by and large, police officers would go in only pairs. Late at night they visit takeaway enterprises and so on. They do an enormous amount of work.

I also hear what the Minister said in answer to the point about discussion between the four Governments in the UK. If the only link between the four UK Governments on the respect agenda is between the four Chief Medical Officers, we are in dead trouble. Although that is important, it is more important that Ministers in the four Governments who have similar responsibilities talk to each other. Devolution means that things will be done differently—we are not looking for a one-size-fits-all situation—but it is crucial that there is co-operation, consultation and information. Major changes take place without any contact whatever with other Governments and it is the same in this area. There is no doubt that that causes problems. I am sure that we will turn in more detail to the issues relating to local government in regard to other amendments and we may or may not come back to this on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I rise to comment on these excellent amendments, and to support my noble friend Lord Beecham who has his name against Amendment 71. Amendment 71 is one of those very small amendments that changes “may” to “must” but it is actually at the heart of this discussion. What we are talking about here is how national campaigns will be linked to local action, and how they will be funded.

I start by reminding the Committee of some of the key components of this Government’s health policy on the harmful use of alcohol: banning the sale of alcohol below cost price; reviewing alcohol taxation and pricing to ensure that it tackles binge drinking without unfairly penalising responsible drinkers, pubs and important local industries; overhauling the Licensing Act; local authorities having more powers to remove licences and refuse grants that are causing problems; allowing councils and police to shut down establishments; doubling the fines for underage alcohol sales; and local councils being able to charge more for late-night licences.

My noble friend Lord Brooke put his finger on it, as did my noble friend Lord Turnberg, when he expressed scepticism as to the efficacy of these when you link them to the responsibility deal pledges on labelling. As part of the public health responsibility deal agreed with the Government in March 2011, UK alcohol beverage companies have pledged—that is an interesting word to use in this context—to implement a health labelling scheme to better inform consumers about responsible drinking. This pledge is in line with the industry’s response to the Department of Health’s consultation in May 2010 on options for improving information on the labels of alcoholic drinks to support consumers in making healthier choices in the UK. I do not think this is going to work.

Will the Government be reviewing their national campaign on alcohol and the misuse of alcohol in the light of this Bill? We have a national policy and a campaign, presumably run and directed by the Secretary of State for Health through the public health agency within the department. We have to look at what will actually happen on the ground and indeed address the dangers or risks that are posed by this Bill. A key question is the distinction between primary prevention and secondary prevention, which is complex in relation to the prevention of alcohol misuse. It is a concern when interventions cannot be clearly delineated as primary and secondary prevention. It seems that the reforms being proposed here will make that worse, not better.

Multiple commissions across one therapy, such as alcohol misuse, may cause uncertainty over who is responsible for funding services considered for both primary and secondary prevention. The worst case scenario is that neither the directors of public health nor the GP consortia commission secondary prevention services because the directors of public health are focused on primary prevention, awareness and information, the GPs are focused on treating the physical complications and harms relating to alcohol, and the hospitals are mopping up the people who turn up needing treatment for alcohol abuse.

If we are to tackle the fact that the number of hospital admissions was over a million in the last year, and that it is estimated to cost the NHS £2.7 billion a year—almost twice the equivalent figure for 2001, with the costs to society being even greater—there has to be co-ordination between national and local, and some direction about how these programmes will be carried through at local level. On these Benches we are therefore very sympathetic to what we see as a series of rather modest and focused amendments. We hope that the Minister will be able to look upon them with some sympathy.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, Amendments 71, 71A, 72, 74A, 202, 328, 329 and 331, make alternations to local authorities’ new duty for public health. In introducing this group, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has made a very powerful case, as one would expect from somebody who has campaigned for a very long time in this area. Clearly, the harm caused by alcohol is unacceptably high, and everyone has to play a role in reducing its harmful use. She is absolutely right in her campaign on this. As she says, 1.1 million hospital admissions were alcohol-related, out of a total of 14 million admissions, at a cost of £2.7 billion. It is of course extremely striking that 13 per cent of 11 to 15 year-olds reported drinking in the last week. I am acutely aware of the particular vulnerabilities of children and young people in this regard. The British Crime Survey suggests that alcohol is linked to half of all violent crime, so you can see the significance of what we are talking about here.

Can I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, that indeed, we are very acutely aware of how many prisoners have alcohol problems, as well as drug and mental health problems? As a Whip in the Ministry of Justice, I can assure the noble Baroness that we regard this as extremely important and that we are seeking to tackle it.

Local directors of public health in local authorities will have a key role in tackling alcohol harm. Can I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that this will need to be addressed at every level of the health service and public health? That is why it receives such prominence in the paper that I referred to earlier. Again, I refer to the fact that public health, itself in the past very much a Cinderella service, is now at the front and centre of these changes. We hope that the involvement in local authorities will help to change this.

There are a number of steps that need to be taken; I would like to flag up some that the Government are taking at the moment. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, made reference to a number of these, and we are fully aware that this is a range of things, and that neither this Government nor the previous one, in all the range of things that we have undertaken so far, have made a dent in this problem. We recognise that this problem is driven by economic and social change, and it needs to be addressed in that regard, and understood very fully. In terms of relevant things which are happening, local directors of public health and local authorities will have a key role in tackling alcohol harm. We know that engaging with those drinking above the lower risk guidelines early on, and providing advice or referral for treatment for those who need it, does work, and that that is helpful.

While the health services have made improvements, much more needs to be done to identify consistently early signs of drinking above the lower risk guidelines, and to offer advice whenever and wherever the opportunity arises. I know how difficult this is with teenage children.

The coalition’s programme for Government, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, referred, committed to a ban on the sale of alcohol below cost. It also committed to review alcohol taxation and pricing to ensure that it tackles binge drinking. The Treasury published its review of taxation on 30 November 2010 and set out changes to duty on beer.

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, will be reassured that we will bring together the Government’s approach in an alcohol strategy, which is to be published towards the end of this year. We are reforming the Licensing Act via the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to enable local communities to ensure responsible retailing of alcohol. Also mentioned was the consultation on the public health outcomes framework.

[Lord Turnberg]

In the review that the Government are undertaking, will they take note of the publication on alcohol by the Academy of Medical Sciences, produced by Sir Michael Marmot two or three years ago? It recommended a whole series of things to do. Unfortunately, the Government of the day sexed it down and we were not able to move much further with it. I hope that this Government will take it into account.

[Baroness Northover]

I note what the noble Lord has said in regard to his Government. I would be astonished if those working on this strategy were not bearing that in mind, but I will check. I can assure the noble Lord that, in the unlikely event that they are not, I will bring the review to their attention so that they can factor it in.

The noble Lord, Lord Rea, asked whether the current spending on alcohol is included in local authorities’ funding for public health. I can assure him that that is the case and that what is being spent by PCTs on commissioning alcohol services will be reflected in the resources transferred to local authorities.

Amendments 66 and 72 would add,

“providing services for the prevention and treatment of harmful drinking and alcohol dependence”,

to the list of steps that the Secretary of State and local authorities may take under new Sections 2A and 2B. However, the Bill already gives the Secretary of State and local authorities the ability to take appropriate steps to address harmful drinking. The new public health responsibilities in this Bill give local authorities a ring-fenced grant to ensure that local authorities have the resources to deliver their public health responsibilities, including alcohol misuse services. Obviously, there was discussion of that ring-fence grant previously. I think it is a move forward that, instead of public health being part of the overall NHS and subject to being raided, there will be a ring-fenced grant.

Clinical commissioning groups are already under a duty—under Section 3 of the NHS Act, as amended by Clause 10, and under new Section 3A—to commission services as they consider appropriate as part of the health service or to secure improvement in the physical and mental health of their population. Given the scale of the problem, it would be astonishing if that was not part of how they see their responsibility.

I can further reassure your Lordships’ House that the importance of services which reduce alcohol-related harm will not be overlooked. The Secretary of State will set the strategic direction of the NHS through the mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board. This should be the route for highlighting priorities for the health service and I have no doubt that debates in Parliament, such as this, and in the wider sphere will help to influence that.

Amendments 328 and 329 would require joint strategic needs assessments to include an assessment of alcoholism in the local population and the involvement of representatives from alcohol services in the preparation of the joint health and well-being strategy. While we fully support the principle that the joint strategic needs assessments need to be comprehensive, we do not feel that it is necessary to include this amendment in the Bill. The scope of this assessment will naturally include the needs related to harm from alcohol. However, we have retained the power for the Secretary of State to issue guidance on the preparation of the joint strategic needs assessment. We will ensure that it covers the need to consider alcoholism, which I hope will reassure noble Lords.

Amendment 329 would require local authorities and clinical commissioning groups to,

“involve representatives from alcohol services”,

in the preparation of the joint health and well-being strategy. While there is no representative of alcohol services in the local area on the health and well-being board, it would still be able to involve experts as appropriate or invite them to be members of the board. On Amendment 331, which would require health and well-being boards to include,

“a representative from alcohol and drugs service”,

the same point applies: they could be a member of the board or their advice could be sought. The legislation sets out a minimum membership for these boards—

[Baroness Thornton]

I am slightly disturbed that so far the Minister has given us lots of coulds and maybes and “there is no reason why they should not”. Given the scale of this problem, I think that the Government need to look carefully at what goes on the face of this Bill and what is put in regulations about the problem of alcohol abuse.

[Baroness Northover]

I think that that point comes through loud and clear from this debate. I note what the noble Baroness said about what goes into the Bill or in regulation. She will know, from her experience of government, that generally speaking you do not put this sort of thing into the Bill. However, I take on board very much what she said about regulation, and I will take that back to the department.

The noble Baroness rightly focused on the joint strategic needs assessment and analysis of the current and future health and social care needs of an area. This would include the health and social care needs that are alcohol-harm related. Health and well-being boards would be able to involve people as necessary. As I said, noble Lords have made a very strong case for tackling alcohol abuse, which is very much economically and socially driven by the changes that underlie why this has come about. I have no doubt whatever that this issue will continue to dominate our debates, whether over regulation or over the Secretary of State’s mandate. This is a difficult area to tackle, as we know and as the previous Government knew, and it is best tackled as a cross-party attempt.

If only putting such matters into the Bill was a panacea. However, I am sure that the noble Baroness recognises that that is not the case. We realise that a range of measures must be taken, and I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that we constantly review the effectiveness of what we do. If we did not, I am sure that noble Lords would ensure that we did. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw her amendment.

[The Archbishop of York]

As the Minister resumes her seat, I would ask: if the matter is so serious, what is the problem with changing the word from “may” to “must”? What difficulty does that bring? Seeing the seriousness of the matter, why do the Government continue to say, “We will watch this”, “We will do this”, or “There will be a review of this”? This is a very simple amendment. I would have thought that they could, for once, admit and accept that the amendment be inserted, instead of postponing for some future thing. What is the real problem? I have not heard an answer to why “may” must remain and “must” must not be inserted.

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[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, public health started in local government some 160 years ago—and as many of us have previously remarked, it started in Birmingham or Liverpool or Newcastle, depending on who you believe. But in all events it owes its origins to local government, and as many noble Lords have already made clear, local government has made enormous strides in promoting the welfare of the community and indeed the individual through the exercise of public health functions—notably, of course, in the realm of housing.

It is because, as my noble friend Lord Rooker has pointed out, so many responsibilities still rest with district councils that his amendment, to which I have subscribed, clearly makes the case for ensuring that while we have a two-tier system in parts of the country, district councils should be involved. They have manifold responsibilities that have been exhaustively, not to say exhaustingly, adumbrated by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in his long list of their functions. I spotted two that for some reason he overlooked. One is noise abatement, which I am afraid is a significant health issue in many places, and the other is, perhaps more generally, community safety, which again can be a district council function. All these matters suggest that there ought to be a clear role for district councils in two-tier areas, certainly in relation to public health and, as perhaps we shall discuss at a later stage, in respect of other aspects as well. For that reason I hope the Minister will acknowledge that the amendments dealing with the role of district councils, including the amendment in my name which seeks to reaffirm that whatever else happens, the current duties relating to public health which apply to district councils should remain in place, should be accepted so that nothing in the Bill would dilute those responsibilities.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has made a good case in Amendment 203C for clinical commissioning groups to promote public health. I do not purport to understand the groupings here. This is no reflection on the noble Baroness, but it seems to me that the other amendment would have been better placed in the debate around clinical commissioning groups rather than here. The words “public health” have registered, so the amendment seems to have been plonked here, it might be thought somewhat inappropriately. Her argument, of course, is absolutely valid, but it is perhaps slightly unfortunate that that amendment has been placed in this group.

I have to say much the same about Amendment 79A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. There are, if I may say so, two things wrong with the amendment. First, it really talks about providing commissioning consortiums—or, as they are now called, clinical commissioning groups—with responsibilities. That, again, is in the wrong place, but even if it were in the right place I would find myself in difficulties supporting it, because it seems to set up a parallel system with local government. It would invest in clinical commissioning groups the possibility of commissioning a range of services:

“housing or housing related support … education and employment … transport and leisure services, and … other health-related services”.

That last item I can understand, but the other three are primarily local government responsibilities. The implication is that either they would effectively take over or jointly commission services, in addition to local government. That is misconceived and likely to blur the position very significantly. So if the amendment were likely to be pressed to a vote, I could not find myself in the same Lobby as the noble Baroness. However, I apprehend that she will not be pressing it to a vote.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, raises interesting points under the clause stand part debate, and they are ones that should be considered. However, at this time I propose to stand apart from clause stand part. She is right to raise these matters and perhaps they can be taken further in discussion, as can other of the suggestions in amendments that we have heard tonight. On Report, one hopes that the Government will have reflected on the points made, and particularly on the position of district councils as referred to by my noble friend Lord Rooker and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, so that we can ensure that the position of such councils and the duty to co-operate, which is so essential, is embodied in the Bill and not left to chance. It is not universally the case, I am sorry to say, that the relationship between county and district councils is all that amicable. There have been cases in parts of the country where it has been very far from the case. It should be made clear to both groups that there is a duty to co-operate, particularly to the county authorities that they have to reflect the interests of the district councils, because of the importance of the functions that they exercise.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, with Amendments 73 and 75, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has correctly identified the importance to public health of collaboration and co-operation between agencies. The noble Lords, Lord Rooker and Lord Greaves, come from somewhat different perspectives with regard to local government, perhaps based on their relevant or not relevant experience in this regard. I am, as ever, very grateful when my noble friend Lord Greaves offers me help, and we certainly can have discussions. Noble Lords, as these debates have shown, can offer experience across a wide area of knowledge and we would be remiss not to tap into that.

[Lord Greaves]

I thank my noble friend very much indeed for that. While the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and I may come from different ends of the spectrum, we end up in the middle agreeing on a way forward.

[Lord Beecham]

And so do I.

[Baroness Northover]

Well, there we are—at this time of day, just before a recess, we have cross-party consensus. Shall we just adjourn?

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, correctly identifies the areas in which local authorities have done so much to improve public health. I made reference earlier, as others have made reference, to the 19th century, because the sanitary reform then was a local authority achievement, and it did more than the invention of antibiotics to save and extend lives. The devolution of public health to local authority-level aims to link up all those areas across people’s lives, a point emphasised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler.

The noble Baroness graphically shows how health is related to wider social and economic factors, a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has demonstrated in her account as well. I know from DfID how investing in girls’ education in developing countries results in later pregnancy. Why should it not be true here as well?

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[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

Slightly but not tremendously.

[Baroness Northover]

I am reassured that she is slightly clarified. This has been yet another important exploration of how the new arrangements might work. I realise that there will no doubt be further discussion; nevertheless, I hope that in the light of what I have said the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and for the support for the fact that we need to address this issue. I am not asking for any more reassurances but I should like to believe that between now and Report there will be deeper discussions with local government, probably even addressing the machinery of government.

I cannot believe that the existing silos of Whitehall will work when the Bill is implemented. There is now a cross-over between health and local government which has not existed in this country for many decades. Therefore, there is going to be a cross-over and a different kind of working relationship between the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Department of Health. That seems to me eminently sensible for reasons of both accountability and delivering a seamless service to the public. After all, that is what it is about. The public do not care where the service comes from; they want to know that the service is there.

I appreciate the constraints that the noble Baroness is under, but I think that it was well worth while giving this issue a run-out. I have no doubt that we will return to it on Report, but basically I hope that there is more of an impetus and that Ministers’ officials will say, “Well, we do need to have a little bit more discussion to lock this thing down”. The Government cannot afford to get this wrong with this legislation, as the Minister has realised. I think that, with a bit of extra thought, consultation and discussion within government and with local government, a satisfactory solution can probably be found. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.