Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Warner Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, before the noble Earl responds, may I offer him a little piece of advice, as a former Health Minister who had to take controversial legislation through this House? I would say to him that if I had been confronted with this situation, I would have gone to my boss, the Secretary of State for Health, and asked him to facilitate the passage of this legislation through the House by making this information available to the House.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I, too, wish to ask the Minister one additional question. Can he give any idea of how quickly the proceedings that he mentioned in his recent letter to Members of the Committee will take? He showed in that letter that there needed to be discussions with other ministries and that there needed to be consideration of whether an appeal should be brought. I know that he appreciates, as much as the rest of the House does, that our debates in many areas would be very much affected by knowing what is in the risk register, and in particular, perhaps, those parts of it that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, suggests could be made available. Can he give the House any idea of the probable timetable, as we are all conscious of the fact that the debates might have to be repeated all over again if the information in the risk register is relevant to the things that we are talking about?

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My Amendment 82 focuses on how the board’s performance in commissioning services is to be performance managed. Will the noble Earl say—or write to me—about how, in commissioning plans, the board will seek to consult health and well-being boards? This is a rather general group of amendments. I am conscious that we have a usual channels agreement to finish 12 groups today before we rise. If there are some points that the noble Earl would seek to write to me about, that would be very good. I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 79 in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who unfortunately cannot be here today, my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. Our purpose is to focus clinical commissioning groups on the needs of the 18 million of our fellow citizens with long-term conditions.

We spend an awful lot of time and money in our healthcare system preoccupied with acute hospital care. Indeed, 50 per cent of NHS expenditure goes on acute hospitals. However, day in, day out, week in, week out, the bulk of NHS activity—some 75 per cent of it—goes on good, bad and indifferent treatments for people with long-term conditions. Of course, some of these people have acute episodes, often because their routine care has been neglected. For example, 10 per cent of NHS expenditure goes on people with diabetes. The number of people being treated with diabetes is rising. We know how best to look after people who suffer with diabetes but too often we neglect basic, routine care and maintenance of the condition, seemingly waiting for the inevitable crisis to occur.

The scale of long-term conditions is, in my view and that of the colleagues who signed this amendment, sufficient to draw particular attention to their needs in the Bill. That is what the first part of Amendment 79 does by adding the words,

“especially persons with long-term conditions”,

to Clause 11 at line 12 on page 7. However, we want to go further. A very high proportion of those with long-term conditions need help, both from the NHS and from adult social care services. That is why the second part of that amendment specifically requires clinical commissioning groups to pay attention to their need to secure improvement in the integration of health and social care in the delivery of services. Of course, we have already had one discussion on integrating health and social care services at the point of delivery, including specifying a definition and I suspect that we shall come back to integration on a number of occasions as the Bill progresses. I shall certainly return to this issue on Report.

In the mean time, I hope we will receive a more constructive response from the Minister to this amendment, placing a clear responsibility on clinical commissioning groups from the outset to focus on securing improvement in the integration of health and social care in the commissioning of services. We need to move from the rhetoric of integration to requiring it to happen in legislation. I beg to move.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

I wish to speak to Amendment 80. I wonder how many noble Lords are aware of the historic nature of the proposed insertion into the 2006 Act of new Section 3B(1)(c). It is the first time that mention has been made in a Bill of the requirement on the Secretary of State for Health to provide services or facilities for those detained in a prison or in other accommodation of a prescribed description.

When I was appointed Chief Inspector of Prisons in December 1995, I had to give up the chairmanship of Hillingdon Hospital National Health Service Trust because I could not guarantee the time required, but during my chairmanship I was particularly grateful that my extremely able director of mental health insisted that I trained as a lay assessor so that, in his words, I could be of some use to the hospital. What neither of us realised at the time was that he was enabling me to appreciate, at once, the full and avoidable horror of the situation that I found during my first prison inspection of Holloway, during my second week in post. He educated me about both the complex requirements of those suffering from mental health problems and what it was possible to provide for them.

That understanding fuelled my fury at finding that none of what I had been accustomed to at Hillingdon was present in the largest female prison in England in 1995, despite the appalling numbers of women with varying degrees of mental health problems. When I remonstrated about that, I was told that uniquely in the country, prison healthcare was not, and never had been, the responsibility of the NHS but had been retained by the Prison Service. I was then told that the director of prison health, a doctor, was not responsible for the provision of healthcare, merely for advising the prison’s board, which was actually responsible. When I asked how many of the prison’s board had medical experience or qualifications, I was told none.

So I set about trying to change this nonsense, writing a thematic review of the situation in 1996, entitled Patient or Prisoner?, in which I recommended that the NHS takes over responsibility as soon as possible. I quoted the vast well of psychiatric morbidity, exacerbated by the treatment of and conditions for prisoners being wholly unsuitable for those suffering from mental health problems, which invariably made them worse. I simply could not understand how this situation had been allowed to continue since 1947, not least the continued failure to include the needs of the 500 or so prisoners whose transfer to high or medium-secure hospital accommodation was recommended each year in National Health Service estimates. That meant that provision was always a matter of chance because of competition with funded community needs. Years of lack of NHS budgetary provision for any aspect of prison healthcare, including the additional expense that released prisoners add in the community, remain a millstone around the NHS neck.

It seemed abundantly clear to me that prison health was a public health issue, because every single prisoner except, for the very small number, sentenced to natural life was going to come out and the state of their mental and physical health when they did so was a matter of public interest. Not only was offender health not regarded as a matter of public health, but GPs had to fight to get information from prisons about any medical treatment a prisoner had received. That was of doubtful quality, because we found that only 10 per cent of prison medical officers were qualified to act as GPs in the NHS. In other words, not only did anyone going into prison disappear from the NHS radar screen, but the authorities seemed to disregard the fact that imprisonment—paid for by the taxpayer—presented a priceless opportunity to identify and initiate, or pick up and continue, essential mental and physical health treatment. This could then be continued on release to the benefit not just of the prisoner but also of the community into which he or she returned. It all seemed unbelievably short-sighted and, frankly, stupid.

In the event, the NHS was made responsible for prison healthcare in 2003—seven years later, or longer than World War Two; so much for the speed of governmental decision-making. Since then, there has been considerable improvement, particularly when good primary care trusts have taken very seriously their primary care contract responsibilities with individual prisons. The same has not been so true of mental health contracts, largely because provision has in no way been able to match demand. I shall never forget speaking to members of the first mental health in-reach team to go into Wandsworth. They had expected to have to deal with a few very serious cases; instead they found that they were swamped by the 70 per cent of the prison population who were suffering from one or more identifiable personality disorders. It did not make them sectionable, but suggested that there was something affecting their behaviour that, if identified, could be mitigated. However, as the resources to carry out the identification were, and are, lacking, mitigation was, and is, denied—a process that should be of public concern.

My reasons for spelling all this out are to explain why my proposed amendment is an appeal to the Minister to withdraw the words, “other accommodation of a prescribed description”, and substitute detailed descriptions of that accommodation. I say that because the Secretary of State is required to commission services for a number of entirely different places of detention with very different requirements. Public and privately run prisons require primary, secondary and mental health contracts appropriate for their population type, whether man, woman or child. Privately run secure training centres and local authority-run secure homes require child-centred services. Privately run immigration and removal centres, about whose healthcare provision there have been many complaints, require a range of services, including specialist knowledge of tropical diseases. In addition, if the Government adopt the diversion schemes recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, there must be appropriate psychiatric and nursing provision in both police and court cells, in which people may have to be held until moved to appropriate NHS accommodation.

The Department of Health is very fortunate to have an able director of offender health, Mr Richard Bradshaw, who can provide the necessary descriptions very quickly because he is well acquainted with the differing needs. I therefore ask the Minister to accept this amendment in the spirit in which it is meant, which includes trying to ensure that the dreadful situation that I have described is never allowed to reoccur in any prescribed place of detention.

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[Earl Howe]

They will be held in the first instance by the NHS Commissioning Board. I anticipate that if a CCG or a group of CCGs wishes to establish a new service that involves a new building, a dialogue will take place with the board to bid for the necessary funds.

The noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, put a very important question to me about the needs of the homeless. As I have indicated, CCGs will have responsibility for meeting the reasonable secondary care needs of the homeless. CCGs are responsible for unregistered patients in their area as well as those who are usually resident. Primary care for the homeless will be, as now, accessed through GP practices, either as registered or temporary patients, or through open-access GP services, such as GP-led health centres or bespoke services for the homeless. It is important that the needs of the homeless are factored in to the plans not only of CCGs but of the joint health and well-being strategies formed at local authority level. Clinical commissioning groups will participate in formulating them.

Just to clarify the point I made to my noble friend Lord Greaves, I perhaps should have made it clear that the Commissioning Board could in practice allocate capital budgets to a CCG or a group of CCGs. I hope that was implicit in what I said. I re-emphasise that clinical commissioning will deliver better outcomes only if we allow clinicians the autonomy to identify the needs of their patients and communities and to make the key decisions about how best to meet those needs. With that in mind, I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance to the noble Lord for him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Warner]

Can the noble Earl help me, before we get to Report stage, on the issue of the integration of services? He used the same argument he used previously, which is essentially that integration is a process and what we should be concerned with in the future is the outcomes framework. The problem for those of us who want to see something more on integration in the Bill is that we cannot quite see how we can change the culture on integration without having something in the Bill. Outcomes frameworks deliver results later on in the process. We see in the future what has happened. The difficulty many of us have is that we do not believe that that future will arrive unless we are more vigorous in this legislation about specifying some requirements on integration. Will the Minister write to a number of us before Report stage to explain how the outcomes framework will deliver that change of culture without words in the Bill about integration, particularly integration between health and social care? I do not expect an answer today, but I would like a clearer answer than the noble Earl has been able to give to satisfy us that we do not need some words in the Bill.

[Earl Howe]

I understand the point the noble Lord is making and I will be happy to write to him and other members of the Committee. The Bill already provides a framework of powers and duties which will support more integrated approaches to meeting patients’ health and social care needs, ranging from requirements to ensure that use is made of research in the health service to the close relationship between commissioners and the local authority and the health and well-being board. We ought not to forget that the NHS Commissioning Board guidance under new Section 14Z(6) could well cover the exercise of this function of integration. I accept the noble Lord’s point that in large measure it is a matter of changing cultures and one cannot achieve that through the written word in a Bill that goes through Parliament. However, I would be happy to put some flesh on the bones for noble Lords in writing and I hope that that will be helpful.

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I hope that the Minister will respond sympathetically to these amendments, and indeed to others that other noble Lords will be making in the debate this afternoon. If he cannot reply in detail today, as time is pressing, I would quite understand if written communication were made later.

[Lord Warner]

I apologise to the House for my enthusiasm to get in to this debate on public health, which I regard as a key part of this Bill. I am extremely supportive of much of the thrust of the Government’s approach. I rise to speak to Amendments 62, 64, 65 and 68, which are in my name and in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel—and, in the case of Amendment 62, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Walton. Unfortunately, neither of those noble Lords can be with us today. However, I strongly support the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Beecham.

These amendments to Clause 8 are aimed at strengthening the Secretary of State’s duty on the protection of public health. Let me make clear that, as I said, I very much welcome the Government’s emphasis and commitment on public health and support the thrust of their changes. It is time for us to give much more prominence to public health if we are to relieve the pressures on the NHS in the coming years. However, I believe that we could go further than the Government have in terms of the Secretary of State’s duty, as currently expressed; hence these amendments.

Amendment 62 requires the Secretary of State, when taking steps to protect the public from disease or other dangers to health, to do so on the basis of,

“using the best scientific and other evidence available and without regard to special interests”.

The first prong of this amendment is to cement evidence-based policy into the discharging of the Secretary of State’s duty to protect public health, and to make clear the use of science in doing so. All Governments like to claim that their decisions are evidence based—nothing surprising or new in that—but all too often they are not. For example, it has been a very long haul getting all government departments to have chief scientific advisers. Even now, the Treasury has only recently appointed its first chief scientific adviser.

Your Lordships’ Science and Technology Committee, of which I am privileged to be a member, is currently looking at the experience of chief scientific advisers in different departments, and it is very clear that their status and influence vary considerably. In the area of public health, it is absolutely clear that using a strong scientific evidence base, including the social and behavioural sciences, is very important indeed. Nowhere was this more important than in the controversial issue of banning smoking in the workplace and in public places. The dangers of second-hand smoke were discounted until the scientific evidence made that position untenable. If I may say so, we are now seeing a rerun of that debate over the issue of smoking in cars and the danger to children of second-hand smoke. Without going into particular issues, I want to emphasise the importance of Health Secretaries—of all political persuasions—making public health policy and taking decisions on the best scientific evidence available, and of requiring them to do so in statute.

The second prong of Amendment 62 is something of a belt-and-braces approach, requiring the Secretary of State to not be overinfluenced by special interests. There have been long-running concerns about the influence of the tobacco, food and drink industries on successive Governments over public health policy. I am not making a party political point here. All Governments have been subjected to pressures by those particular special interests when they have tried to deal with protecting public health. I will not go over the ground in detail because it is well documented and in the public arena.

However, the issue has been given a new burst of life because of this Government’s attachment to nudging public behaviour in the right direction rather than legislating. Again, the Science and Technology Committee of your Lordships’ House, under the chairmanship in this case of the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, produced a report recently on this issue. While the nudge approach can be useful in changing public behaviour, that it is a sufficient remedy in many critical areas, such as obesity, is not supported by good evidence. The result is that powerful interests backed by skilful marketing can still defeat important public policy advances.

Lobbying by powerful special interests is a feature of all western democracies, and a potentially dangerous one in the sphere of public health. We should take the opportunity of this Bill to require future Health Secretaries in this position not only to pursue science-based policies but to resist the blandishments of special interests. Amendment 64 is a simple substitution of “must” for “may” in terms of the steps that the Secretary of State should take in carrying out his duties set out in new Section 2A(2).

Amendment 65 extends the final item of that list of steps, so that services made available assist the public to take,

“responsibility for improving their health and well-being, including access to their own medical records”.

Many of the pressures placed on the NHS result from lifestyle choices that we all make that can damage our health. We need to make it a central tenet of public health policy that we should assist people to take more responsibility for their own health and well-being, rather than simply expecting others to bear the cost of treating them when they become ill. Obesity is a good example. In most cases, the solution lies literally—if I may put it this way—in our own hands. Accessing and probably holding our own medical records would reinforce that personal responsibility. This Government, like the previous one, rightly emphasise personal responsibility alongside rights. In the sphere of public health, Amendment 65 gives a push to that approach. I hope that the Government will accept it in the spirit in which it is proposed.

Finally, Amendment 68 extends Clause 2A(4) to give the Secretary of State a bit more help in carrying out his duties to protect public health. This amendment requires the Secretary of State to appoint an independent standing advisory committee on public health of no more than 15 people to provide advice on a regular basis as well as when the Secretary of State seeks it on a particular issue. The reports of that committee will be available to Parliament and the committee can report to the Secretary of State on any matters of concern that it has about the state of public health. I would envisage this committee being a major focus for the provision of scientific evidence to underpin public policy in this area under Amendment 62. I think that Amendment 68 is self-explanatory and its benefits self-evident in an area as important as public health.

I hope that the Minister will see these amendments as constructive strengthening of the Government’s ambitions on public health and enabling a helpful legacy to be left to the next Health Secretary whenever this current Health Secretary chooses to leave his job. I believe that these amendments go with the grain of the powerful, recent report on public health by the Select Committee, which proposes further strengthening of the Government’s powers. I hope that the Government will be sympathetic to these amendments and to Amendment 95, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to which I have added my name.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington]

My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend could help me with something that seems to be implied in his very eloquent deliberations about the amendments. I agree with him entirely that, in the public health arena, political leadership—the role of Governments of whatever party—is enormously important, particularly, as he said, in resisting the blandishments of external lobbies and so on. Does he see a potential conflict between the additional powers which he is advocating for the Government and the Secretary of State in this area, which I would entirely support, and the decision of the Government to reduce the powers of the Secretary of State in general for health services, healthcare and the promotion of general health matters in the way in which the Committee has discussed at some length on earlier clauses?

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a very important point. I can see some differences of approach here. Today, I am speaking on the rather narrow issue of helping the Secretary of State to be a powerful influence in improving public health. Of course, it is for your Lordships' House to debate further, as we progress through the Bill, whether we want Clause 1 to go a little further than the Government seem to want in terms of the Secretary of State’s responsibilities. I have sympathy with my noble friend in seeing a slight confusion on the part of the Government in some of these areas.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I wish to express strong support from these Benches for the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Perhaps I could mention one or two points. It is clear that the emphasis on public health, important as it is at the national level, must also be reflected at the local level. I say again, therefore, that the amendments about expecting clinical commissioning groups to have at least one board member with public health experience are important in reflecting the kind of things about which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has spoken.

I also believe that the noble Lord has put forward in Amendment 68 a very interesting idea that ought to give a higher profile to public health advice on how to deal with diseases and illnesses in the population as a whole. Obviously I share the views expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, on the importance of putting the Secretary of State squarely behind these issues, and I shall give one example of that. The Bill provides for extensive redress on issues related to smoking and alcoholism, and perfectly properly so. People are perhaps more reluctant to point the finger in relation to some of the serious public health issues arising from the food industry, issues which have great implications for the food industry's relations with the overall economy. There has over many years been a very slow response to growing evidence that certain foods, particularly foods directed at children and young people, have a substantial impact on health. If one looks at the ways in which those foods have been advertised, with an emphasis on how attractive they are, not only so that people will taste them but so that there will be a certain addiction to them, one will see an issue on which there should be a major consultation between the Department of Health and that industry. So far that has largely been limited to issues such as labelling, which is sometimes so complex that the ordinary consumer would not easily pick it up.

There is a continuing emphasis on, for example, foods that attract young children but which contain high levels of salt, sugar and so on, which is all the more serious in a country such as ours which, sadly, has a growing problem of obesity. I strongly suggest that the Government should look closely at Amendment 68 and the idea of establishing a standing advisory committee on public health. I would also point out the importance of assigning responsibility all the way up to the Secretary of State to ensure that these negotiations with industries and special interests which are crucial to the nation's health are conducted at the highest level and that public health is recognised as a full companion to all the other aspects of health. In that respect, I am very pleased indeed that the Government have put emphasis on the independence of the public health area and allowed public health to be taken out of the Department of Health and given its own status. That is a very long step forward.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, given that my hard-working noble friend Lord Howe deserves at least a short break, I shall be addressing these amendments. If I do not cover them sufficiently comprehensively, given the time, I shall be very happy to write to noble Lords.

This is a very large group of amendments covering Clauses 8, 9, 14 and 19, which together set out the fundamental legislative basis for the new public health system. I thank noble Lords for their general welcome of these provisions, which of course put public health very much front and centre in the new system.

The Public Health White Paper sets out the Government’s commitment to protecting the population from serious health threats, helping people to live longer and to enjoy healthier and more fulfilling lives, and to improving the health of the poorest the fastest. At a national level, there is a clear rationale for accountability for health protection to rest with the Secretary of State. The nature of various threats to health are not, of course, always amenable to individual or local action. They require a clear line of sight from the Secretary of State down to local services.

Clause 8 inserts new Section 2A and gives the Secretary of State a new duty to take steps to protect the health of the public in England. In practice, Public Health England, the national component of the new public health system, will play a key role in health protection, bringing together a fragmented system and strengthening the national response on emergency preparedness. It is our intention that it will be an executive agency of the Department of Health. Public Health England as an executive agency will have an operational distinctiveness that will allow it to build and maintain its own identity. Agency status will support the ability of scientists in Public Health England to give expert, objective and impartial scientific advice, which noble Lords have called for, to both the Secretary of State and more widely. I entirely share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that we must make use of the best scientific and other evidence available. We intend to set out clear proposals shortly on how the Secretary of State and Public Health England will receive professional advice. I am confident that those proposals will at least match the intention of the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Warner]

I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness on her debut at this point, but does she understand that by its very nature an executive agency is within a government department and does not have the same level of independence as a non-departmental public body? We are seeing played out in the public arena at present some of the consequences when there is disagreement between people in an executive agency and a Minister. That concerning the Home Office is currently being played out on the front pages of our newspapers. Does she agree with me and, I think, my noble friend Lord Turnberg, that having scientists in an executive agency fetters their freedom compared with in a non-departmental public body?

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Lord flags up a concern that has been expressed about the independence of the new organisation. I would point out the example of the Met Office, which is arranged in a similar way. What it does on climate change may not always go down well with the Government of the day, yet it has no reluctance in coming forward with the evidence that it has.

It is extremely important that it should have that expert advisory position. That is why it was moved out of the Department of Health, which was the original proposal. The noble Lord will know that it was going to be within the Department of Health, but the Future Forum flagged up that concern and the decision was taken that it be arranged in this way, to address the points that the noble Lord has raised.

Coming back to what I was saying about the Health Protection Agency, I remind noble Lords that Clause 53 abolishes that agency and repeals the Health Protection Agency Act 2004. That is central to the Government’s plans for unifying national health protection activity and creating a more transparent and accountable service under the Secretary of State. In so many ways the Health Protection Agency has done an outstanding job, and we certainly pay tribute to those who have worked within it. It has established an outstanding international reputation, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, pointed out. Public Health England will be able to build on that recognised expertise not only from the Health Protection Agency but from other organisations that we can draw into our public health system. There was talk about whether this should be a special health authority. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said that he wished to address this later on, so no doubt we will come back to this and to the points the noble Lord, Lord Warner, made about independence and why we are not proposing to do things in quite that way.

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[Baroness Northover]

I have a feeling that carpenters might disagree. Nevertheless, I take on board what the noble Baroness says, and I hope that I have reassured her.

Where was I? I think that I have covered the points spelled out by various noble Lords on research and evidence. Research and evidence would rightly run right the way through these arrangements, and I would have expected noble Lords to flag this up. It is absolutely crucial that evidence underpins the work that is done. I heard what was said about nudging, and so on. The Select Committee itself said that it welcomed the exploration of new ways of doing things, provided that they do not dislodge other ways of assessing things. It is extremely important that, in all these areas, you assess what the impact of something is. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured. We will come on to this in a minute.

[Lord Warner]

I suggest the noble Baroness reads the report of the inquiry chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, which makes it very clear that the scientific evidence to back up nudge as a way forward is extremely weak.

[Baroness Northover]

I hear what the noble Lord says. To judge so quickly something which has only exploded on to the agenda relatively recently does not seem to me to be terribly scientific. As a former social scientist, I do not think that that is giving quite enough time to assess it. However, the Government absolutely hear what the noble Lord says. We need a range of ways of exploring things. If people suggest ways of probing and investigating areas, then all those areas need to be assessed properly, and given due time to take effect.

I was about to come on to the point that, in this Bill—noble Lords have flagged this up—there is provision for continuing to measure children even though that public health responsibility has gone over to local authorities. It underpins our understanding of the extent to which we have obesity among children. It is extremely important that it is carried forward, and I think that that bears out the Government’s commitment to continued research.

I have covered patient records. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, asked about child services. I know that my noble friend will be coming back into full view in a minute, and will address some of these areas, so maybe that is best covered then. We are extremely concerned to make sure that, across all areas, these matters are properly co-ordinated.

I have addressed the point raised about the separate annual reports. The Secretary of State is reporting generally, across all these areas. I hope that I have not missed out any key areas. There was a question from the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, about Public Health England. It will indeed be able to receive research funding from the majority of sources from which the HPA is currently receiving research income. This was a key point that was flagged up by noble Lords last night, and it has been confirmed. Research is clearly vital for the specialist expertise required in Public Health England.

I appreciate noble Lords’ probing on all these important areas, but I hope that at this stage the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw the amendment.

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Tabled by

[Lord Warner]

62: Clause 8, page 4, line 26, at end insert “using the best scientific and other evidence available and without regard to special interests”

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this debate. I was very grateful for all the support that I got around the House for some of the ideas in these amendments. I wish to give notice to the Minister that I remain unconvinced by what has been said so far—that the Secretary of State’s duty will be exercised in a way that guarantees he takes account of independent scientific evidence. We will return to that later in this debate, but in the mean time I will not move my amendment.

Amendment 62 not moved.