Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Turnberg Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

In addition, advisory committees breed. It is absolutely extraordinary. Yes, you want to keep the good ones. There are others that I have set up and given a time limit to complete a task within two or three years. Then you try to get rid of them. It is so difficult, because they get dug in, they love the work they are doing and many get paid for it. In the end, they become not so much a help but more of a nuisance. So I have some reservations, but when we get to the debate on Public Health England we will see how some of this knits together.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I am also pleased that public health receives such a high profile in this Bill. I speak to Amendment 60B and one or two others in this group. There seem to be several aspects to the public health parts of this Bill being probed by these amendments. However there is one area of public health that might fall between too many bodies and where we might usefully explore how we can arrange for them to be better co-ordinated. The area is child and maternity services.

As I understand it, local authorities will be responsible for child public health services; the Commissioning Board for health visitors and immunisation services; and clinical commissioning groups for child health and maternity services. That will require all sorts of collaborations to be set up, and that is always a recipe for some problems. I hope that the noble Lord can give us an idea of how these sets of services can be rationalised in some way.

I shall now speak to Amendment 62 and some others. Clause 8 describes the Secretary of State’s duty to protect the public’s health. It details a number of specific responsibilities which, it so happens, are currently undertaken by the Health Protection Agency. I would like to comment on them. I have extolled the virtues of the HPA on a number of occasions, having observed it closely as the chairman of its predecessor, the PHLS, some years ago. Incidentally, the hero of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, is an employee of the Health Protection Agency. It is a remarkable organisation and the envy of the world. It jumps on outbreaks of infection very rapidly and has prevented many an epidemic. There are many examples of that.

I reiterate this because the HPA is to be swept up into a new arrangement, as we have heard, much more directly under the influence of the Secretary of State. Thank goodness it will not be within the Department of Health, but it will be very close to it. My fear is that we will weaken something of great value to the country. I have some specific questions for the noble Earl.

First, is it expected that all the current functions of the HPA will be taken on board, or are we to lose some? The list is pretty comprehensive but it may leave things out. If so, what would be lost and what would be preserved? Secondly, is it intended that all the staff will move across? They currently work as a very efficient and effective team—a lean, mean team—and any break-up will have an effect. Thirdly, is funding to be affected in the changeover? Will the new organisation have access to external research grant income? That is very important if it is to keep ahead of the infections, which keep changing every day. I have mentioned this before and the noble Earl has responded, but I should like him to respond again more forcefully on whether the organisation will have access to the Wellcome Trust grants, the Medical Research Council and others outside of the NIHR. One of the duties of the Secretary of State is to take steps that include,

“the conduct of research or such other steps as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”.

Finally, will the body have the degree of independence that will allow it to give advice to the Secretary of State unfettered by Civil Service restrictions?

I hope that the noble Earl can help us with these questions, because there is considerable unease in the HPA at the moment.

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, I should like to speak very strongly in support of Amendment 65 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Were the noble Lord, Lord Patel, here today, I am sure that he would also speak strongly in support of it because he raised the issue of patient records yesterday when we had a meeting with Professor Steve Field of the Future Forum. We were discussing information provision for patients and the use of computer records. He said that for many years when working in maternity he had given patients their own notes, and in all that time he could remember only two occasions on which the notes had gone missing. On one occasion, the patient reported that a dog had eaten the notes and, on the other, the notes were left on a bus and shredded, someone having recognised that they were important. Therefore, only two sets of notes were lost over a period of some 20 years. Patients are perfectly capable of looking after their own notes. When I was a surgeon in Ghana in 1974 it was certainly quite common for patients to come to the clinic with their notes, which often would otherwise have been lost.

The final message that came through was that we have spent billions of pounds on creating paperless records and computer records and are about to spend even more. The information that we were given yesterday at the Future Forum was that we should be looking at what can be done locally, bearing in mind that GPs have a computerised system of records. We heard another anecdote about an old lady who went to the out-patients’ clinic for her appointment and the consultant said, “I’m terribly sorry but we’ve lost your notes today”. She put her hand into her handbag and came out with a memory stick, saying, “Doctor, it’s all on here”.

I hope that the Minister will take note of Amendment 65 because I feel that it may well stimulate us to look again at patient records and the use of technology. We are, after all, in the 21st century and, although paper records are wonderful for us to have as a tactile instrument, they do not always contain the information that we need.

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[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Earl will accept these amendments. In many respects they are very modest. I have grave doubts about the extent to which we will be able to influence the course of events in this arena with the changes that we have before us. I am grateful to him for responding in his long letter of 20 October to all of us who raised a variety of questions at Second Reading. He endeavoured to address some of the topics that I had raised on alcohol, labelling, licensing and so on. However, I still believe that ultimately the major issues on alcohol policy will need to be addressed at the centre.

One can do nothing about the cost of alcohol at local level. It must be done centrally. That is being addressed—but inadequately. The marketing of alcohol is something over which local authorities and well-being boards will have no control whatever. The drinks industry is increasingly marketing on the internet and targeting youngsters, particularly in the social networking sphere. I heard recently that one-third of young girls aged 13 to 16 surveyed in Essex are suffering blackouts from excessive drinking. If they continue to drink like that, they will not be ill immediately—they will have good fun and games—but within 10 years, when they get to their late 20s, they will have real problems. What will health and well-being boards be able to do about that? I have been pestering the noble Earl on the labelling issue for quite some time. Nothing can be done about that at local level.

There is one issue that we could have done something about at local level, but we missed our chance. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will recall that when we debated the Police and Social Responsibility Bill, we addressed the freedom that people now have to issue licences on a much more liberal basis than used to be the case—we now have a proliferation of off-licences everywhere—but were unable to effect any changes that would have given local authorities greater powers to limit the way in which licences are granted locally. Again, nothing can be done by health and well-being boards.

These are major topics and I wonder how much power there will be to change the course of events. These issues all link to related topics such as obesity and diabetes. It is important that we do not delude ourselves into believing that there will be massive changes without a strong drive from the centre. The nudge-nudge approach will not work with the big drinks industry. Neither, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, mentioned this morning, will it work in the context of food, with salt, fats and sugar. These are real problems for people and very little change will be effected at local level; it must all be done centrally.

I come back to the amendments before us. They are very modest and I see no reason why they cannot be accepted. In particular, I will look at the endeavour to achieve change at GP level. Many GPs have been very innovative. Initiatives have been offered to them to effect changes and a number of them have taken up the cudgels and worked adventurously to identify the problems at local level in their communities. Many more have not been doing anything like what should have been done. The Government have declined to accept the screening possibility that was mentioned. Again, I hope that they will be prepared to review their position on that.

Overall, I urge the Government not to reject the modest changes here, but to accept the amendments.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I should like to speak to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and others. I do not think that it is necessary for me to reiterate the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption. The damage done by alcohol is obvious to anyone who visits an A&E department on a Friday or Saturday evening—and indeed, now, almost every evening during the week. It is the cause of more than 1 million admissions a year to hospitals—that is, admissions to hospital beds, not to the A&E department. Liver disease is spiralling out of control. All of this has been described very eloquently by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay of Llandaff and Lady Hollins, and other noble Lords.

I want to concentrate on the sort of things that we might be doing—in addition to the things suggested, very modestly, in these amendments—with regard to two aspects, prevention and treatment. It is pretty obvious that the system of voluntary pledges with the alcohol industry does not work. It has not yet worked, and does not look like it ever will. The drinks industry is not in the business of reducing alcohol consumption. We cannot suggest that it is. We have tried the voluntary pledges system, and it is obviously not having an impact.

I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe that we need a national strategy. We cannot rely on local authorities alone. In any national strategy, I fear that we have to focus on the price of alcohol. Our history has shown that every time the price of alcohol goes up, the incidence of liver disease and death from liver death goes down. It is the most effective measure. The Government have suggested that we should look at the minimal unit price, which is the price based on VAT and duty, as the minimal level. That is a pretty pathetic level and it does not work. I am reliably informed by Sir Ian Gilmore, who is a guru on the effects on alcohol, that this price measure affects no more than one in 4,000 drinks that are on sale. You have only to go to the supermarket. It is still possible, for example, to get three litres of 7.5 per cent cider—which is the drink of choice of many—for £2.99, and if you are lucky you can get a two-for-one offer, too. Price is critical. It is clear that the Department of Health is not responsible for pricing, duty and so on, but it must put pressure on for a rise in the price. It is not very popular with journalists, and it is even less popular with politicians. Nevertheless, it is an important measure.

I shall talk about treatment. There is no doubt that the best results from treatment come where there is an integrated team approach to patients suffering from the effects of severe alcohol ingestion. That is a team which combines specialist nurses, specialist doctors, primary care doctors and their team in an integrated way. A good example of that service is the one run by Dr Kieran Moriarty in Bolton. It is a very good system. Unfortunately, there are too few of those sorts of arrangements available. We need many more. They work, because you can actually do something with them. You prevent further damage from alcohol by aborting the effects of alcohol very early on. It works.

There is a lot that is needed, and a lot that can be done. We certainly cannot rely on the drinks industry to put up the price. We have to do something nationally. We have to enhance the alcohol services. I hope we can see some action here. I support these amendments as a first step.

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[Lord Turnberg]

In the review that the Government are undertaking, will they take note of the publication on alcohol by the Academy of Medical Sciences, produced by Sir Michael Marmot two or three years ago? It recommended a whole series of things to do. Unfortunately, the Government of the day sexed it down and we were not able to move much further with it. I hope that this Government will take it into account.

[Baroness Northover]

I note what the noble Lord has said in regard to his Government. I would be astonished if those working on this strategy were not bearing that in mind, but I will check. I can assure the noble Lord that, in the unlikely event that they are not, I will bring the review to their attention so that they can factor it in.

The noble Lord, Lord Rea, asked whether the current spending on alcohol is included in local authorities’ funding for public health. I can assure him that that is the case and that what is being spent by PCTs on commissioning alcohol services will be reflected in the resources transferred to local authorities.

Amendments 66 and 72 would add,

“providing services for the prevention and treatment of harmful drinking and alcohol dependence”,

to the list of steps that the Secretary of State and local authorities may take under new Sections 2A and 2B. However, the Bill already gives the Secretary of State and local authorities the ability to take appropriate steps to address harmful drinking. The new public health responsibilities in this Bill give local authorities a ring-fenced grant to ensure that local authorities have the resources to deliver their public health responsibilities, including alcohol misuse services. Obviously, there was discussion of that ring-fence grant previously. I think it is a move forward that, instead of public health being part of the overall NHS and subject to being raided, there will be a ring-fenced grant.

Clinical commissioning groups are already under a duty—under Section 3 of the NHS Act, as amended by Clause 10, and under new Section 3A—to commission services as they consider appropriate as part of the health service or to secure improvement in the physical and mental health of their population. Given the scale of the problem, it would be astonishing if that was not part of how they see their responsibility.

I can further reassure your Lordships’ House that the importance of services which reduce alcohol-related harm will not be overlooked. The Secretary of State will set the strategic direction of the NHS through the mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board. This should be the route for highlighting priorities for the health service and I have no doubt that debates in Parliament, such as this, and in the wider sphere will help to influence that.

Amendments 328 and 329 would require joint strategic needs assessments to include an assessment of alcoholism in the local population and the involvement of representatives from alcohol services in the preparation of the joint health and well-being strategy. While we fully support the principle that the joint strategic needs assessments need to be comprehensive, we do not feel that it is necessary to include this amendment in the Bill. The scope of this assessment will naturally include the needs related to harm from alcohol. However, we have retained the power for the Secretary of State to issue guidance on the preparation of the joint strategic needs assessment. We will ensure that it covers the need to consider alcoholism, which I hope will reassure noble Lords.

Amendment 329 would require local authorities and clinical commissioning groups to,

“involve representatives from alcohol services”,

in the preparation of the joint health and well-being strategy. While there is no representative of alcohol services in the local area on the health and well-being board, it would still be able to involve experts as appropriate or invite them to be members of the board. On Amendment 331, which would require health and well-being boards to include,

“a representative from alcohol and drugs service”,

the same point applies: they could be a member of the board or their advice could be sought. The legislation sets out a minimum membership for these boards—