Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, during the debates on this Bill—and throughout my time in this place—I have learned that there are specific topics about which other noble Lords are passionate. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who is not in her place for sad reasons, is passionate about many issues; but, in the context of this Bill, she has long championed issues around the detention of those with autism and learning disabilities, as has my noble friend Lady Browning. My noble friend Lady Berridge is very passionate about children and young people and about tackling racial discrimination, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is very passionate about the link between finance and mental health. Many noble Lords are passionate about specific issues. For me, Amendment 138, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe, goes to the heart of an issue in which I very strongly believe, based on my own experiences of racism while growing up in Britain.

Before I go into that, I will touch on the amendments from by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. In one of my first work experiences—in Chase Farm Hospital many years ago—I got to know and speak to a young patient from the Traveller community. He told me about the problems that the Traveller community had in getting access to medical care, and how members of the community were always treated with suspicion and not in the same way. So I am very sympathetic to those amendments.

To get back to my own experience, the Britain of recent years, which my children grew up in, is much less racist than the Britain that I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, when it was common to be called offensive names or to be chased by skinheads, sometimes actually with weapons and knives. But my experience was a lot better than the racism that my father faced when he came here in the 1950s. There are horrendous stories that he told my siblings and me when I was younger. I believe that we can be proud of that progress, as a country and a society.

When I was a Member of the European Parliament, I used to chat to the taxi drivers in Belgium and France. I would tell them that I was from London, and not all of them but many of them would say how lucky I was, since they had a friend or relative in London and they thought that London was incredibly diverse and tolerant compared with where they lived. That was very touching to hear—but I have to admit that that is my experience, and some will have had different experiences. Even my experience does not mean that the battle against racism and racial disparities is over. As many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Davies, the right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lady Berridge, have rightly said, we have to be vigilant on this.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, one reason for the review and this Bill is because my noble friend Lady May commissioned the Wessely review due to the disproportionate number of black people being issued with community treatment orders or being detained; noble Lords have referred to this. We have known about that issue for a long time. Although politicians in the other place and many noble Lords here have raised the issue many times over many years, we do not really seem to have grasped the issue or to be on top of it. When I ask colleagues and medical experts about the disparity, I get a variety of answers. In the absence of any widely distributed and comprehensive study, the vacuum is filled by anecdotes or assumptions, sometimes racial stereotypes. One of the most common responses I have heard is that it is complex or multifaceted.

I remember when I did not initially get into the local grammar school, despite having the best grades in the class—better than some of the white pupils who got into the school; it also happened the previous year, in the year above me, when one of my friends who was black, an Afro-Caribbean, topped his class and did not get into the local grammar school—and my mother challenged the decision and asked for the reason, she was told “It’s complicated”. Fortunately, she persisted, and I got my place thanks to the help of my local Member of Parliament, who later became the late Lord Graham of Edmonton, may he rest in peace.

So when I hear the response, “It’s complicated”, I hope noble Lords will understand that I am simply not satisfied with that answer. It is just not good enough any more. The purpose of my amendment is to probe the Government to understand what they know and what research they are aware of, so we can understand the reasons for these racial disparities and put in place measures to tackle them. If it is complicated, can the Government or NHS list the various reasons and say what they are going to do about it? As noble Lord after noble Lord has said, we need the data.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who is not in her place, reminded noble Lords that many of the answers from the Minister sound similar to the responses from 20 years ago. That is not a political point. I suspect that the answers given by the Minister, who is well liked and respected, would not be very different from the answers prepared by officials for any Health Minister of any party. Some of the answers are probably very similar to answers that I gave when I was a Minister. That is not to disrespect the diligent civil servants in the department, who work really hard, but we need answers to the following questions.

What studies are the Government, DHSC and NHS aware of? What do we understand from the various studies? What secondary data do we have, and what are the known unknowns? What do we know that we need to know more about? Has there been any attempt from that secondary data to generate the questions for the primary research so that, once and for all, we can understand why a disproportionate number of black people are subject to community treatment orders and to being detained? Do the Government, DHSC or the NHS, if they have the data, know how to use it to reduce those disparities? If so, when will they begin to reduce these disparities?

I was very pleased to hear a reference to some of the pilot schemes. Perhaps the Minister can refer to some of those schemes, and maybe that would be helpful. But I have to say that if the answers that we receive to these questions, either tonight or when the Minster writes to noble Lords between now and Report, are not adequate, I suspect that noble Lords will have to send the Minister back to the department to kick the tyres and get a better answer. It is as simple as that; otherwise, I am afraid that we will return to this issue on Report. If it comes to that, I hope that we will not see a Government urging noble Lords from the governing party to vote against an amendment that would seek to tackle these huge racial disparities in a methodical way and with an evidence-led approach. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for the points they have made. I shall start with those from my noble friend Lady Whitaker regarding Amendments 63, 101, 107, 113, 116 and 124 and immediately address the point about the limited available data on Roma communities.

I absolutely acknowledge that the data on Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities is indeed very limited. I emphasise that I say this not as an excuse; it is just what I have discovered. This is largely due to lower numbers, but we are working with NHSE to improve ethnicity reporting for all patients. More broadly, the Office for National Statistics is working with a range of government departments to undertake research into the barriers and enablers for this community in accessing a range of public services, including mental health services. Findings are expected later this year. I know my noble friend has been very active in pursuing this point and I am grateful to her for doing that. I hope that will be a generally helpful response.

I add to all noble Lords that I absolutely agree that information, communication and support should be provided in a culturally appropriate manner. However, we do not believe that the amendments would achieve that aim, nor are they necessary. The duty to take cultural differences into account in how services are delivered is already enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. These existing duties are the legal basis for ensuring that services are culturally appropriate. That said, we absolutely acknowledge that, in practice, many services still fall short, but that is the position that we find ourselves having to tackle. This is where we need to strengthen guidance. The patient and carer race equality framework is already in place to strengthen the application of these principles, and we will strengthen guidance in the code to ensure that duties under the Equality Act are embedded in practice. We therefore believe that these amendments would not have any additional benefit above what is already in place and what is planned.

On Amendment 65, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, we recognise that there are very significant disparities in the use of community treatment orders between different groups. This data is published as part of the annual Mental Health Act statistics. As the noble Baroness said, in 2023-24 it certainly was the case that patients from black and black British ethnic groups were around seven times more likely to be placed under a CTO than those from white groups. I add that patients from all minority ethnic groups are more likely to be subject to the use of a community treatment order than patients who are white. These disparities are explored in the impact assessment.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, drew on his personal experience, for which I thank him. I am sorry that he has to bring that personal experience here, but of course it is the case that the battle against racism and racial disparities is far from over—I completely agree. I am sure he will have noted the commitments made by this Government to tackle racism and racial inequalities, particularly in the NHS and social care.

The reality is—many noble Lords have spoken about this—that we are in a position where we have less data on outcomes and patient experience of being subject to community treatment orders. Officials are now working with NHS England and system partners to understand what additional data it would be wise and helpful to collect. We will cover CTOs in the planned independent evaluation of the reforms but, as ever, I have to share, in honesty, that it will take time to gather new data. A review after 12 months would be premature, not least because it would mean it was based on data from before any reforms commenced. I do not feel that that would be helpful. I assure noble Lords that, rather than committing in legislation to a review at a fixed date, we are committed to keeping existing and additional future data under review.

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[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way and sorry for interrupting her flow again. The point about having a staging report after two years is to get ahead and upstream of what is happening rather than retrospectively being able to do stuff after it has gone on. Two years in management terms to be able to determine trends of intended or unintended consequences and then put different things in place is really important. I believe that this amendment, with a report back to Parliament, would send a very strong signal and allow the Government, the department and NHS England to pick up trends, even if it was not the total picture, which would determine different policies and practices and potential changes in the code as well as management action. I think that is what lies behind the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt at this time. I note that the noble Baroness thinks that 12 months is too short, and many noble Lords can perhaps see the point that two years is too short. Does the department have any idea of what a reasonable timeframe is? There has to be some accountability, as the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said. We could accept the warm words and the intentions of the Minister here tonight, but what happens if nothing changes? Where is the accountability? Can the Minister think about asking the department whether there is a reasonable timeframe for some meaningful research? I have supervised academic theses over time. You can have the one-year and then you go on to the three-year for PhD, and sometimes that is quite comprehensive data. There might be a meta study that could be done of lots of existing studies. First, what is a reasonable time? The noble Baroness does not have to answer now; it can be in writing. Secondly, if we let this go, how do we make sure there is accountability? How do we come back to this in three years or four years or five years? I look forward to the answer.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I was about to say that I do understand the need for pace, but I know that noble Lords understand the need to get this right and I know they are not suggesting that we should get it wrong. I will certainly be glad to look at the points that have been raised. I assure noble Lords that I do not want this to be warm words and I understand what noble Lords are seeking. I want to ensure that it is right and that the pace is right. I will look at the points raised because—although I do not think anyone is accusing me of this—it is the exact opposite of avoiding accountability and transparency; it is just about dealing about what is in the amendments.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked me a number of very pertinent questions and to do justice to them I will write to him. In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords—

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I can understand the frustration that the noble Baroness outlines. It is hard for me to comment on a number of those 20 years. My feeling is that that is why we are here today updating the Bill. Indeed, at the risk of repeating myself—I will try not to—I take the point that she is making, yet I feel there is a need, under the updated Bill, which I hope will become an Act, to review the overall impact of the new provisions. I understand that we cannot be on a hope and a wing and a prayer. That is not the intention. We will keep CTOs under review as we implement changes. I certainly want to keep a very close eye on their impact, as I know your Lordships’ House will. I know that noble Lords will not be shy to raise any concerns that they have.

Amendment 66, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and supported by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, would require the use of community treatment orders to be reviewed within two years of the Act being passed. As a number of noble Lords have said, we believe that CTOs can be valuable for certain patients—indeed, as we have referred to, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke about their benefit for eating disorder patients, as she did at Second Reading—but reform is needed so that they are used only when appropriate and for the shortest possible time.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, made a couple of points, which I am happy to write to him about, about concerns about resources. He asked about the role of mental health nurses—an important point—and the effectiveness of CTOs. I will write further on those points.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

If the Minister and the officials look at Amendment 66, they will see it asks four specific questions. It could include more, but I wonder whether we can understand what the Government understand about each of those four things, including the impact of community treatment orders on people from different ethnic minorities and the effectiveness of the continued use of community treatment orders. I think it would be interesting for noble Lords to understand what the Government currently understand, if that makes sense.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Yes, it does. I thank the noble Lord for the clarification. I will come to some of those points, particularly on racial disparity, but I just wanted to ensure that I did not miss the points that he made.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, raised how people with eating disorders will be supported on CTOs. To elaborate a bit on what I said previously, for some people CTOs allow them to be cared for in the community with the least restriction, but with the safeguard that they can be recalled for treatment if necessary. That is a very necessary aspect.

I hope noble Lords are aware that I certainly would agree about the importance of the right data being used to inform decisions, trends and reviews. Data on community treatment orders are published as part of the annual Mental Health Act statistics. My officials are working with NHS England and others to understand what additional data should be collected to understand the impact of the reforms—this relates to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall.

I know that noble Lords more than understand that gathering new data takes time. Therefore, it is felt that a review after two years would be somewhat premature, as it would be based on data from before the reforms were commenced. So, rather than committing to a review in legislation at a fixed date, the Government are committed to ongoing monitoring of CTOs as we implement the changes. This will form part of our overall commitment to evaluate the impact of reform and to consider next steps. I am sure that your Lordships’ House would wish to continue to be involved in this.

I turn to Amendment 67, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, requiring a review of economic and social disparities in relation to CTOs. I agree, as I have many times, that there are significant disparities in the use of community treatment orders, particularly between different minority ethnic groups. This was spoken to by not just the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, but the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. I will make a few points about this. Those who are black are currently seven times more likely to be detained on a CTO—we have discussed this in your Lordships’ House a number of times, and rightly so, in my view. For CTOs, we are strengthening decision-making in three ways: first, by requiring that an individual must be at risk of serious harm to be made subject to a CTO; secondly, by requiring that the community clinician be involved in all community treatment order decisions; and, thirdly, by increasing the frequency of automatic reviews of patient cases by the tribunal. We will work closely to ensure that the Bill’s provisions are effectively implemented, because a main plank of this legislation is to reduce racial disparities in decision-making under the Act. I am sure we will return to this point many times, and rightly so.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I would not want to upset any people from South Carolina. In fact, I did some work in Raleigh and Durham a few years, so I should get this right. Is the department aware of that study, and has there been any analysis of what could be learned from that study which could be relevant to the United Kingdom, especially given one of the main reasons we are here tonight is to reduce the disproportionate detention of people from black communities? I look forward to the Minister’s responses.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to and tabled amendments for this important discussion, which, I am sure my Whip will tell me, will be the last one of the evening.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, given that all those who have spoken to this group of amendments have been brief, I shall try to be brief. Once again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, for discussing with me in an exchange of emails over the weekend the intent behind the amendments in her name.

The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, makes a reasonable point about clauses in the Bill that contain the phrase “likelihood of the harm” or “serious harm may be caused”, because it is assumed that such risks are quantifiable and predictable. I was struck by her observation that psychiatrists, psychiatric nurses and academics have warned about the difficulty of being able to predict episodes of violent behaviour in individuals because the base rate for violence, particularly serious violence, in the population is low. One of the things that we keep saying throughout this debate is that we need to see the evidence and the data, and that that should drive decisions that are being made. Given that, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for sharing the statistics, which I will not repeat but which reinforce the point that she wanted to make.

Considering those statistics, I am sympathetic to two specific points that the noble Baroness made. The first is that making statements about individual risk based on such statistics is complex and possibly unsafe, and, as the noble Baroness said, may be unethical. The second is that it may be helpful to use structured risk-assessment systems in routine clinical practice, if used by appropriately trained staff, to predict possible violence at a group level. However, given that many noble Lords have spoken about patient-centred care and the importance of understanding the individual and their sensory profile, surely we should be looking at patients as individuals, where the clinician better understands the individual patient’s mental state, relevant history and response to treatment given his or her life circumstances.

I will be interested in the Minister’s response to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, urging the Government to replace wording such as “likelihood of the harm” or “serious harm may be caused”. These terms are inexact and somewhat ambiguous and do not appear to be driven by evidence. Perhaps there are more appropriate terms for more holistic and comprehensive assessments.

Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, proposes that the definition of appropriate medical treatment includes the setting in which treatment takes place. This takes us back to a point made on the first day in Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that for those with autism and learning disabilities, being held possibly in noisy, bright, busy settings full of people who may be strange to them, and where they may feel powerless and worry about what will happen next, is likely to affect their mental health and well-being. Therefore, surely it is important that we take account of the points made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Tyler, particularly in Amendment 45.

On Amendment 48, it is really important that care is led by the level of therapeutic benefit. That should be based on evidence to drive those decisions. Given that, I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions that have been made and the amendments that have been tabled.

I turn first to Amendments 37A, 37C, 38A, 38B, 42B, 42D, 42E, 42G and 42H, all tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and spoken to by other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, regarding the new criteria. Let me say at the outset that the new criteria explicitly require decision-makers to consider the risk of serious harm and the likelihood of those harms occurring in order to justify detention. Clearly, the reason for this is to ensure that any risks to the public and the patient are consistently considered as part of the assessment process, and to protect patients from lengthy detention when these risks are unlikely to occur. I hope that this will be helpful for some of the debate that we have had.

The amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, seek to revise the proposed new risk criteria to remove any mention of risk that “may be caused” or the “likelihood” of the risk transpiring. The purpose appears to be to remove any prospective assessment from the detention decision and instead focus on the risk as it can be established at the time. The noble Baroness, in her introduction, asked about the reasonableness of the words in the provisions, and I understand that this is where the concerns lie. I should also thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for his comments on evidence and data and their importance. In answer to the noble Baroness, I should say that the independent review found that the current criteria for detention are too vague and recommended that the Government should update the detention criteria to be more explicit about how serious the harm has to be and how likely it is to occur to justify detention. The intention of the revised detention criteria in the Bill is not to ask clinicians to make predictions but to clarify that they should consider whether a harm is likely to occur, based on their assessment and knowledge of the person—something that the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, focused on—rather than based on risks which may never occur.

Any consideration of risk arguably preserves the need to look at what might happen rather than what is happening or has happened in more concrete factual terms. We think that it is important that the detention criteria allow clinicians to detain based on the risks that they think are likely to happen, rather than just the risks that have already materialised. This enables them to act early to prevent harm to the patient or others. In line with the intention of the noble Baroness’s amendments, this should be based on personalised individual risk assessments and information about the patient’s history and personal circumstances—again, something that I know noble Lords are exercised by, which is about the individual approach to this.

We did engage again on the changes to the detention criteria last summer, in light of the recommendation on this issue by the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, and to assure ourselves that the detention criteria struck the right balance between allowing clinicians to continue to take early action when they are concerned about a patient’s or others’ safety and the independent review’s concerns that people could be detained on the basis of risks that might never occur.

First-cousin Marriage

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I certainly have not, and I am not aware of discussions that have taken place between Ministers or officials in our department and those in other countries. However, I will be very glad to look into that and to write to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Farmer for the Question, and the Minister for the sensitive way in which she is handling it. When we want to look at policy in sensitive areas, surely, we should be led by the data, so I just wonder what the Government’s latest data is. We know that about a decade ago, 6% of congenital defects or anomalies were in children born to first cousins in Pakistani communities, compared to 3% for the wider population. I have seen more recent statistics that say the figures are now 4% and 2%. So, what is the latest data the Government are working with, and what level would those congenital defects have to reach before they were seriously concerned?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his support in this area, which is indeed sensitive. The statistics he quotes are quite right. It is of course an interesting reflection that the risk of genetic abnormalities does not just double from 3% to 6% in those infants whose parents are first cousins, but also doubles in older white British mothers—I am a bit worried about saying “older” because it is actually over 34. However, the point is well made that it is not just this group. NHS England has recently published guidance to improve the recording of national data on closely related couples, so I hope that noble Lords will find this of interest as we go along. But of course, there has also been much investment in research as well as data development, and I absolutely agree that data is what has to drive us.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 14th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I begin by thanking all noble Lords who spoke to this first group of amendments in Committee. Before I comment, I refer noble Lords to my interests as set out in the register. I am not an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, noble Lords will be relieved to know, but I should mention my previous work with a couple of think tanks—the Institute of Economic Affairs and Politeia, which have both published on health and social care issues. There is also my work at St Mary’s University, where I am a professor of politics and international relations, and which has recently applied to open a new medical school. I also sit unpaid on the advisory board of a start-up coalition, and I know that there are a number of start-up companies helping people with mental health conditions. I just wanted to cover those interests, in case anyone made any accusations.

This group addresses the principles that will guide the application of the Mental Health Act, as set out in the Wessely review. Sir Simon pointed out, rightly, that there are already guiding principles in the code of practice, but that

“there is limited awareness of these, and it seems very likely that they do not inform practice in the way they should”.

Clearly, as noble Lords said at Second Reading, the important aim of including the four principles is to improve their application and ensure the highest level of care and therapeutic benefit for patients, while ensuring that all patients are treated as individuals.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for her Amendment 1. Of course, equity is at the heart of the Bill, as my noble friend Lady Berridge just said. The Wessely review was commissioned by my noble friend Lady May of Maidenhead with the intention of understanding why a disproportionate number of black people were being detained and receiving community treatment orders under the Mental Health Act. I think all noble Lords welcome the idea of including equity in principle, as long as it then feeds through into practice. That is the key here, and my question for the Minister is: would putting the principle in the Bill make a difference to practice? How do we make sure that it makes a difference to practice, rather than simply adding the words or adding the principle? One of the values in the NHS constitution is that “everyone counts”. Does this equality duty go further than that, and would it have a greater practical significance? That is one of the questions we need to dig out and probe the Government on.

The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, makes an interesting observation with her Amendment 3. The principles were included in the Bill, as the Wessely review argued, to improve clinical practice. This is vital, because we know that the Mental Health Act is the legislation that is used to compel detention in hospital for treatment. This may very well raise awareness of the principles, but once again, how do we make sure that this is applied? We have to keep pushing this point, although I will not repeat it again, of making sure that this gets fed in to practice in the clinical setting.

I also note the amendments in this group of the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. I will not repeat the statistics that she read out about the impact of the lack of or inappropriate support for people with mental health issues or learning difficulties. Of course, it is not difficult to appreciate the complexities. Someone in my close family worked with speech and language therapists in his youth, and I could see the difference it made. It is almost too obvious to say, but how do you get your needs across if you cannot communicate them, or your needs are not understood by the person who is supposed to be offering treatment? As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, mentioned, this is included in the Explanatory Notes, but how do we make sure that it gets into the Bill and into practice? Obviously, it is a problem that is acknowledged by the Government, or it would not be in the Explanatory Notes, but why have the Government chosen not to go any further on this issue?

I was very struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said about Amendment 49 and her concerns. Will the Minister address that debate? Of course, we all want to make sure that patients feel that they are understood. We know that patients have to be supported as much as possible to make sure they get their point across and that they are understood, in order to give them adequate treatment, but I noted the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, even though the noble Lord, Lord Patel, intervened. Have the Government taken a view on this or does the Minister need to write to us? I look forward to her comments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I feel it necessary to start, instead of talking about the Bill, by offering our condolences to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on the very recent loss of her dear husband, and to thank her, as I know all noble Lords will do, for her close engagement on these reforms over many years. I say to the noble Baroness, who said she would be watching if she could, that we absolutely understand why she cannot be with us today. We miss her and I know that the thoughts of all noble Lords will be with her at this very sad time.

If I may make a few general points, as we know, this legislation has been in development for many years. I put on record my thanks for the collaborative and constructive nature of that work and the discussions I have held in my post over the past few months with Peers on all sides of the House. I extend my appreciation to the former Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady May of Maidenhead, for her highly significant role in commissioning the independent review which informed this Bill and to Sir Simon Wessely and all those who worked on this landmark review, which provided a blueprint for this Bill. Like other noble Lords, I am very pleased to have got to this point.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions. I will take the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, first. Following Royal Assent, we will be drafting and consulting on a revised code of practice, which will be laid before Parliament. We will be working with key partners to ensure that everyone is trained in the new Act before the first major phase of reforms. I hope that that will be helpful.

I hear the disappointment in the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. On her request for specific examples, I will need to write to noble Lords on that. I hope noble Lords realise that not having the principles in the Bill, as the amendment refers to, does not mean that there is less intention that they apply. For me, it is about the way of getting there, rather than the commitment to it. However, I hear the question about that point.

Amendment 49, on the matter of speech and language therapists, is in the name of my noble friend Lady Whitaker, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Bradley. I turn first to the question raised by my noble friend Lady Whitaker. It is true that not all speech and language difficulties or differences would count as a disability under the Equality Act 2010, so my noble friend makes a relevant point.

The definition of who can and cannot be approved as an approved clinician was spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. That definition is set out not in primary legislation but in instructions issued by the Secretary of State, under the power in Section 12ZA of the current Mental Health Act. These instructions have the same status as secondary legislation, so it is our belief that it would not be appropriate to specify in primary legislation that speech and language therapists can be approved clinicians, because all other professional groups are covered only in the instructions.

For that reason alone—but noble Lords should bear with me—we will seek to reject this amendment. However, I can commit that we will be revising the statutory instructions under Section 12ZA following the passage of the Bill, and we are very happy to consider extending the criteria to include speech and language therapists. I offer an invitation to the royal college to discuss this matter with the department and to consider how it can work to support and encourage those of its members who may be interested in this role.

I am aware that time is not on my side. However, a number of amendments in this area have been tabled—

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I wonder whether I can be of help to the Minister. The timing is advisory so, if there are important points that the Minister wishes to make, she should please go ahead.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I have never had so much encouragement to carry on speaking. Noble Lords will be glad to know that the flashing clock always makes me very nervous. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall.

Prisons: Health Services

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 14th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for sending me a briefing in advance of this Question. She rightly and importantly highlights that cancer outcomes for prisoners are poorer than for the rest of the population, while the cost of services is greater. However, given that we will be debating the Mental Health Bill later today, I want to ask a related question. Over 30% of prisoners have a learning disability, so what steps are the Government, the NHS and the Prison Service taking to protect and care for prisoners with learning disabilities? They may be there partly as a result of their learning disability, and while in prison are often at their most vulnerable. What care is there for prisoners with learning difficulties in order to protect the public and reduce the risk of reoffending when they are released?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

As the noble Lord rightly says, the Mental Health Bill is in Committee this afternoon and I know we will refer to that. Certainly, the reforms in the Bill will speed up access to specialist in-patient care and treatment, in particular by introducing a statutory 28-day time limit for the transfer of patients from prison and other places of detention to hospital. On particular needs, which may be learning disability and autism, as I know noble Lords are aware, the Mental Health Bill is very focused on ensuring that people are being cared for in the right places in the right way, and that in places of detention people are being not just held but supported and their healthcare needs met.

Adult Social Care: Long-term Workforce Plan

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Retention is absolutely crucial. I was looking—as I know the noble Lord also does—at the vacancy rates and they are currently running at some 131,000. However, I was interested to note that they are not actually the best measure of capacity, or lack of it, because those vacancies can reflect new roles and short-term vacancies because of anticipated staff turnover. So I have had to rein myself in when looking at the relevance of vacancy rates.

On retention, there is a whole range of factors. In the immediate, I say to the noble Lord that we are professionalising the workforce by expanding the national career structure and have developed and launched a level 2 adult social care certificate qualification.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, as the Government and the NHS introduce new workforce patterns to take account of changes, surely they should also take account of advances in technology. Recent years have seen the successful testing of virtual wards in the NHS to treat and monitor patients who can be discharged from hospital but who require further care. They can be monitored in their home, freeing up capacity in hospitals. Given this, what are the Government and NHS doing to extend virtual social care to monitor care for social care patients? It would allow them to remain in their home for longer, where they are more comfortable, and it could be one of the many ways to alleviate workforce shortages in the social care sector.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I myself have seen some tremendous examples of the use of technology in allowing people to be in the right environment for themselves and their situation. I assure the noble Lord that we are continuing to work to develop medical technology, not just getting it rolled out and applicable but developing new medtech where necessary.

Perhaps I could use this opportunity to make an allied point. We have also published new guidance on safe delegation to care staff, which I hope will also help professionalise the workforce. We are working to support that across the country. That includes, for example, having care staff taking blood pressure. These are simple but obvious measures that I think work for everybody.

NHS: Single-sex Provision for Staff and Patients

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 8th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sorry to hear of the noble Baroness’s experience, which I have heard her speak of before. To me, as I said earlier, it points to the need to treat people with respect, with dignity and without making assumptions. I cannot emphasise enough the need for sensitivity and respect, which applies to everybody.

While we are talking about changing facilities, we should think about the huge difference in shops over the years. There used to be communal changing rooms, but you would be hard pushed to find them now. People have private spaces for changing and this again applies to everybody. I recognise the challenge of the NHS estate, of course, but I am talking about creative solutions and working with staff to get to where we need to be.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right to talk about dealing with this issue very sensitively, by respecting people’s dignity and acting with compassion. However, some NHS staff and patients—the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to this—have asked for single-sex provisions to protect their privacy and dignity. If the Government are planning further guidance, how do they intend to achieve that difficult trade-off and balance in potential conflicts between single-sex provisions for NHS staff and patients and the rights of individuals under the Equality Act 2010, while respecting their dignity and acting with compassion?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point. In all cases with guidance, that is always the balance we seek to reach. I am also interested in the history of this, and I am sure the noble Lord will remember that the 2019 guidance on trans patients in single-sex spaces proved somewhat controversial, if I might put it that way. The guidance was meant to be updated under the last Government, but this did not happen. I am advised that it was delayed by a dispute between the previous Government and NHS England, which also delayed proposed updates to the NHS constitution. These again were consulted on under the last Government—which was a good thing—but nothing actually happened. So all these come to us as a new Government and will be given full consideration to get us into the right place.

Health: Obesity

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a very interesting point. It is certainly the case that those who consume ultra-processed food have around 50% of their calorific intake through that matter. Where there is not clarity is on whether the foods are unhealthy due to processing or to their nutritional content. On that, the jury is out. We need to establish that. That is the why the Government’s Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition has concluded that the association between UPFs and health is concerning. We need to get to the bottom of why that is.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister rightly talked about the importance of creating the right environment for people to eat healthily. Some noble Lords may have seen daytime television programmes that help families to eat healthily on a budget. The challenge has always been how we take these lessons into people’s homes. I recently spoke to BRITE Box, a local community charity which gives families the ingredients and a recipe card with instructions to help them to cook healthy meals together. This helps with not only budgeting but addressing obesity. Rather than a top-down approach from the Government, what steps are they and the NHS taking to work with existing projects such as BRITE Box to take a bottom-up, community-led approach to tackling obesity?

Bread and Flour Regulations 1998

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 11th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

As I mentioned earlier, while 24 months is a realistic transition, not everything will wait that long. It is the case, as the noble Baroness says, that there is still advice to women who could become pregnant to take folic acid supplements, and it is important that we keep that message going. However, 50% of pregnancies are not planned, so it is not possible to prepare by taking supplements. We are looking at all ways of effectively getting the message across.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on publishing the regulation. I pay my own tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker—although he may not welcome it—for his tenacity on this particular issue. One of my frustrations when I was a Minister on this was how long the processes and consultations took. For future reference, if other supplements are to be introduced into our food, I wonder whether the department has looked at ways in which it could possibly shorten the process without compromising patient safety.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Patient safety is at the forefront of this. I do not want to look backwards, but I gently suggest that there are all sorts of reasons for delays. Still, we are where we are now, and what is important is moving ahead. We are working closely with the Chief Medical Officers across the UK. We are very much in lockstep with the devolved Governments, and I think that will also assist.

Anti-depressants: Cost, Risks and Ramifications

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 11th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

We have already made a number of commitments, but the noble Baroness is quite right to observe the excessive numbers on the waiting list. We are deeply aware of the distress and continuing difficulty that this causes for many. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, in his independent investigation, confirmed that about 1 million people are waiting for mental health support as of April 2024. Moving to the 10-year plan will be an opportunity to put mental health services in a different place. In addition to the commitments that the noble Baroness has mentioned, we are providing access to a specialist mental health professional in every school and providing open-access Young Futures hubs.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for organising a recent meeting with the Minister, the MHRA and some psychiatrists, who raised the issue of SSRIs and their side-effects. One concern was that patients need to be aware that one side-effect of SSRIs is to have suicidal thoughts. Therefore, I was surprised to see on the NHS website’s page on the side-effects of anti-depressants that you have to scroll down four or five pages before seeing the warning signs about suicidal thoughts. While we await the review from the MHRA which it discussed with us, will the Government and the NHS look at the advice on the website so that those who are prescribed SSRIs are clearer about the risk of suicidal thoughts?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would be happy to look at that. However, there have been warnings on the leaflets accompanying medication for some 20 years. It is always a cause to review to ensure that it is most effective. There are at least two sides to this. One is the clinician doing their job to discuss side-effects, including on withdrawal from the medication, but it is important that patients understand it as well.

Health: Quad-demic

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My noble friend has campaigned tirelessly for the vaccine rollout in respect of RSV, for which I thank her, and I know that many others would wish to thank her for that too. With regard to the other vaccines about which my noble friend asked, we will continue to work with the JCVI and, as there are further developments, I will update your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

If the spread of any of the four viruses listed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, were to turn into a pandemic, hospital capacity would be an issue of concern. Hospital capacity is already an issue in most winters. With that in mind, figures released last week show that NHS hospitals are operating at 95% capacity. Therefore, what discussions are the Government and the NHS having with the independent healthcare sector to utilise its spare capacity to help to alleviate the pressures, both this coming winter and in the face of future pandemics?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be aware that being prepared for winter is crucial. It has felt for too long as though winter crises have almost become normalised. Certainly, our move towards a 10-year plan will ensure that we have an NHS that can provide all year round. To give one statistic on Covid, in the week beginning 1 December there were 1,390 hospital beds occupied by confirmed Covid-19 patients per day, which was 41% lower than in the same week last winter. However, we are absolutely aware of this issue and we are not expecting a difficulty in respect of beds.

NHS Plan: Consultation

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am very grateful to all those, including pharmacists, who have used all their networks and contacts to spread the word. That is why we have had over 60,000 responses and more than 1 million visits in what is the largest ever consultation in the history of the NHS. I call on all groups to continue their efforts to ensure that voices across all communities are heard loud and clear.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

During the vaccine programmes for Covid, the NHS and the last Government put a lot of effort into looking at ways to reach people who are vaccine hesitant—often from some black and Asian communities and other excluded communities. What lessons have been learned by the Government and the NHS to ensure that the consultation on the 10-year plan reaches as many people as possible from these communities, so that their voices are heard?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The lessons that have been learned are that there has to be a whole range of ways of consulting: in person around the country; online, where people can access the website; and through toolkits such as the “workshop in a box”. As I mentioned in an earlier answer, the consultation also needs to be tailored to the needs of those who need to speak up. We are asking the public, staff and organisations what is important, and we want, as the Prime Minister said, their fingerprints all over the 10-year plan.

Drug-related Deaths in England and Wales

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will have heard me say before that we had to take some tough decisions at the Budget to fix the foundations in the public finances, and that enabled a settlement for the Department of Health and Social Care of some £22.6 billion. As she knows, the employer national insurance rise will be implemented in April 2025, and in due course the department will set out further details of the allocation of the funding I referred to for next year.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I know this Government take drug-related deaths seriously, as did the previous Conservative Government when we awarded 12 projects a share of a £5 million fund to reduce rates of fatal drug overdoses, adopting a similar approach to that of the Vaccine Taskforce to tackle health challenges. Has there been any evaluation of how successful those projects were? What plans are there to continue or expand them?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Our continuing work in this area is part of the Office for Life Sciences programme. This Government continue to fund research into wearable technology, virtual reality and artificial intelligence, all in a bid to support people with drug addictions. Since coming into office, we have awarded £12 million to projects across the UK that are showing innovation in respect of technology, because we want to support people with addictions.

NHS: Dentistry Provision

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said that it was not only about rocking up to the General Dental Council, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, but about having conversations. Can the Minister confirm what specific conversations the Government have had with the NHS, with the General Dental Council and with other dental bodies to encourage the opening of schools of dentistry in so-called dental deserts, especially in areas such as Norfolk, which my noble friend Lord Fuller described as the Sahara of dental deserts?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

As the noble Lord will know, we are very keen to see that the areas that are most underserved—as I know from my own experience in Lincolnshire—are targeted. One of the reasons is the problem of recruiting and retaining dentists, as there is not a dental school to call upon. That point is well understood. We are keen to target the areas that need the most, as well as providing additional urgent dental appointments. Early conversations have also taken place with the Minister for Care, Stephen Kinnock, about reforming the dental contract, which is absolutely key, and that work will continue at pace.

NHS: Treatment of Children from Other Countries

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right to make reference to the UK rare diseases framework. The intention of that is to improve the lives of those with rare diseases—for example, by helping to get a faster diagnosis, increasing awareness of rare diseases, better co-ordination and care, and improving access to care, treatment and drugs for those in this country. I will add his suggestion to the list of matters to raise with the department.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we can all be proud that the UK is home to some of the world’s best medical experts on rare conditions. As the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, said, there are patients in other countries—often poorer countries—who seek the help of a UK expert. The Minister knows that in the UK the NHS charges, understandably, and that is welcome, but there are other challenges if that expert goes abroad. She spoke about some international agreements in an earlier answer, so can she say a bit more about how NHS England works with other systems in other countries, especially with reference to some of those agreements?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The agreements that the UK has in place which contain referral arrangements whereby the funding is discussed and agreed as part of the process of the referral are with the member states of the EU, Switzerland, the EFTA-EEA bloc of countries, the British Crown dependencies and some overseas territories. As the noble Lord rightly acknowledges, it is only fair that those using the NHS are those contributing to it, and we therefore have to ensure that we stick to those agreements. If trusts seek to undertake work outside of that area, that will be a matter for individual trusts, which will have to make decisions about their funding and their requirements to serve the NHS.

Carers and Poverty: Carers UK Report

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I and my ministerial colleagues are extremely aware of the anxiety the overpayments have created, and they are being independently reviewed to establish exactly why they happened. While I cannot commit to the amnesty the noble Baroness asks for, I can assure her and your Lordships’ House that we and the DWP are working to be as sympathetic to people as possible. I urge anyone in receipt of carer’s allowance to inform DWP of a change in their circumstances, so that overpayments can be avoided in future.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we on these Benches also add to the tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, who has passed away.

My noble friend Lady Verma referred to the stress unpaid carers are under. We know that unpaid carers who look after family members may themselves have mental health issues, or may be looking after people with such issues. What support do the Government currently provide for the mental health of unpaid carers and those they care for, and what extra measures do they plan to introduce?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

One of the key things in all this is the identification of carers. As has been discussed in your Lordships’ House on a number of occasions, a lot of people do not identify as carers. Therefore, we are encouraging GPs and, in the case of young carers, schools, to identify carers, so that they can get the support they deserve. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, identified that making sure that unpaid carers receive recognition and support is key, and it will be in the 10-year plan as we go forward.

Type 2 Diabetes: Continuous Glucose Monitors

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I hear what the noble Baroness says and I am glad to report that I met the Northern Ireland Health Minister recently, along with colleague Peers, to discuss a range of matters including differences across the nations. I will consider the point that she makes.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, while the original Question was about type 2 diabetes—as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, type 2 diabetes can be due to lifestyle and can sometimes be reversed—I want to ask the Minister about type 1 diabetes. Its exact cause is unknown and people can get it at any time of their life, yet there is no cure, so in some ways the need for CGM is more critical. The charity Breakthrough T1D, which represents type 1 diabetics, finds that black, Asian and minority ethnic groups in England and Wales and lower socioeconomic communities are much less likely to get access to or use these technologies. Closing that gap was one of the issues that we grappled with in government, so can the Minister tell the House what plans there are to ensure that as many type 1 diabetes patients as possible across England receive access to continuous glucose monitoring?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is probably important to say at the outset that type 1 diabetes, as the noble Lord knows, is not related to lifestyle issues, and at this point cannot be prevented, so it is a case of management. The technology that is available now is quite remarkable— not just the CGMs that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, inquired about, but also hybrid closed loop systems, where the CGM is paired with an insulin pump, so it is administered automatically without the person having to calculate. I think that is incredibly helpful. It is only available to those eligible, with type 1 diabetes, but the rollout began in April 2024. The noble Lord makes a good point, as did the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, about access and inequality in access. That is something we continue to work on, ensuring that everybody can fairly access these wonderful technology advancements.

Cancer: Older People

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure the powers that be heard what the noble Lord said about a debate. On the point he raised, I absolutely agree that diagnosing cancer earlier, at stages 1 or 2, improves outcomes and survival. I refer again to the report by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi: we need to do more to diagnose people at an early stage. Work is already being undertaken to improve cancer screening uptake. We will continue to roll out targeted interventions such as the lung cancer screening programme, which has a particular effect and impact on the most disadvantaged areas. Members of your Lordships’ House will know that the Budget also committed to £1.5 billion of capital funding for new surgical hubs and diagnostic scanners, which will increase capacity.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I will carry on the thread of questioning that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, started about early diagnosis. As the Minister said, it is very important that we look at early diagnosis. Noble Lords who are interested in diagnosis were looking forward to a follow-up report to the 2020 community diagnostic centre review by Sir Mike Richards. That was due to be published before the Budget, yet the Health Service Journal has reported that it has been shelved. Is this true? If so, can she explain why?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is important that we concentrate on the biggest ever NHS consultation, because that will lead us to the 10-year plan, and all that we are doing will sit within that. As the noble Lord will know, we are committed to getting the NHS to diagnose cancer earlier, treat it faster and improve waiting times. One of the announcements in the recent Budget, which also shifts the dial, is that we will deliver an extra 40,000 scan appointments and operations every week. The 10-year health plan will set out our approach for shifting healthcare from sickness to prevention, including reducing the incidence of cancer.

National Carers Strategy

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My noble friend, who is a very impressive campaigner on the rights of carers, is right to talk about recognition. Of course, if one does not understand that one is a carer, it is hard to access support. I certainly agree on that point. There is guidance, for example, to support GPs in recording which of their patients are unpaid carers, to ensure that they get access to the support they need. Importantly—this has been raised a number of times in this House—in respect of young carers, there is guidance for GPs and it has recently been added to the school census, so young carers can be identified in order that there can be an assessment of needs. So it is true that we need to identify in order to support. Part of that is people recognising themselves as carers.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I also pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. I learned much from her when I was the Minister. The Minister may recall that, in April 2023, the previous Government set out the better care fund framework. This included £100 million to accelerate digitisation in the social care sector. This would enable the Government and NHS England to collect valuable data about the state of social care and identify gaps if the Government decide to deliver a national strategy. What plans do the Government have to continue and expand this vital process of digitisation across the care sector, hopefully in delivering a national strategy?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is indeed the case that using technology and digital advance is key in all the areas where we are working, and the noble Lord will know that in the 10-year plan one of the three pillars will be, for example, going from analogue to digital. On that point, plans for going forward in dealing with social care, which is much needed in this country, will be set out in due course. I assure your Lordships’ House that it will be done through a cross-party approach, involving those with lived experience and the many voices and organisations that are part of the social care sector. We are keen that it is something that we can all get behind.

National Insurance Contributions: Healthcare

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, unintended consequences have plagued policymakers and Governments for many years. I am interested in whether the impact on primary care providers, hospices and care homes was a deliberate or unintended consequence of the recent rise in employers’ national insurance. Did the Government conduct an impact analysis of the cost to primary care providers, hospices and care homes before the Budget? If not, have they conducted one since or do they intend to do so? Can the Minister assure non-state providers of primary care, hospices and care homes that this was not a deliberate measure to squeeze them out of the health and care space and that the Government will consider appropriate measures to ensure that they can continue to be financially viable and invest in facilities, staff and front-line services?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

I assure the noble Lord that there is no intent to squeeze out any providers, which are much valued and appreciated. We will continue to listen to their concerns and consult them as we make allocations, which is, as he knows, the usual practice for every Government. On the Budget settlement for the Department for Health and Social Care for 2025-26, I assure him that the Chancellor considered the impact of all the changes in the Budget.

Food and Drink Industry: Processed Sugar

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that point. It is one of a number of things that is discussed with industry. It is important to draw on the fact that the location restrictions—in other words, where things are located—that came into force in October 2022 have actually turned out to be extremely impactful. There is a whole range of measures that we need to look at, and we will continue to work with industry. As I said in response to my noble friend, we will look at the balance between what is mandatory and what is voluntary, because that will be our best way forward.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, for his persistence on this issue. As a Minister, I received many similar Questions. The noble Lord asked about natural sweeteners, but can I ask the Minister about artificial sweeteners? The world-renowned Mayo Clinic suggests that artificial sweeteners, while reducing sugar intake, might also have negative side-effects, and that food labelled as having no sugar or being low in sugar may give the impression of being healthy but actually contain high levels of saturated fat, trans-fat, sodium and other cholesterol-raising ingredients. Can the Minister tell the House, first, whether the Government are aware of any negative side-effects of natural sweeteners and, secondly, what the current thinking is on informing consumers on how reformulating food with less sugar does not necessarily make it healthy?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes some very good points. I can give the assurance that all sweeteners have undergone a rigorous safety assessment before being authorised for use. It is also worth drawing the attention of your Lordships’ House to the fact that the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition is currently considering the recent World Health Organization guideline, Use of Non-sugar Sweeteners, which has particularly suggested that achieving weight control may not necessarily be about replacing sugar with sweeteners. It is about acknowledging that sweeteners are more difficult—to use a non-technical term—to use in the reformulation of food than they are in drinks. There has been success in drinks, which has not been exactly mirrored in food, but there are technical and practical reasons for that.

HIV Care: Access

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Yes, and I thank the noble Baroness for making those points, which I certainly agree with. The challenge for us now is to reduce the number of people who live with undiagnosed HIV, but also to reduce the number not seeking care and treatment. For the first time, the latter has exceeded the former, which suggests that we have a challenge we must focus on in the new plan, and we will do so.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Black for his consistent campaigning on this issue, and especially for helping those with HIV. What has been learned from previous initiatives? We know that in recent years, the NHS and the previous Government looked at ways to address issues such as vaccine hesitancy, and the reluctance of some to seek tests and treatment at any time. What lessons have been learned from these previous initiatives for the HIV action plan—for example, by working with local communities and the charities that a number of noble Lords have mentioned to encourage more patients with HIV to seek treatment, especially in communities such as black and Asian communities, where there may also be a stigma, as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, mentioned, around admitting that they have HIV?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

There is what I call a three-pronged approach to interventions to reduce the number of people not being seen for care, which is so important, as I know the noble Lord is aware: identifying people who have not been seen for care; contacting them and re-engaging them; and addressing the barriers to engagement, which a number of noble Lords have referred to. This means sustaining engagement with care in the long term and supporting people with HIV.

We will review what lessons we are learning from the HIV action plan for England, which runs to 2025, and that means we will be able properly to inform the development of the new plan. I look forward to updating your Lordships’ House on this.

Bread and Flour Regulations 1998

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises an extremely good point. Before we speak about the groups to which the noble Lord referred, I want to point out that fortification will not be enough in any case. We need to continue our encouragement for women to take daily folic acid supplements before conception and in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, because doing so can prevent up to seven out of 10 cases of neural tube defects—I want to emphasise that. I will take on board the noble Lord’s very important point and ensure that it is part of our considerations.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I start by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for his persistence in this matter. When I was a Minister, I found it rather frustrating to be told that the consultation process could not be speeded up, so I pay tribute to the Minister for the progress she has made. However, I want to ask about a possible unintended consequence. The NHS website says that folic acid is not suitable for some people: those who are allergic to folic acid, obviously; those who have low vitamin B12 levels; those who have cancer, unless they have folate deficiency anaemia; and to those who are having a course of haemodialysis or who have a stent in their heart. Given these warnings on the NHS website, can the Minister assure the House that she is confident that those who suffer from those conditions will not be harmed unintentionally by increasing the volume of folic acid in our bread and flour?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his support in this area; I know that he also worked hard to make progress in it. I can give the assurance he asked for, and I would say to people that if they are concerned, they should seek expert advice about their own personal circumstances. All of the expert advice and relevant committees are content that this is the right way forward.

Pharmacies: Rural Areas

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

On the point that the noble Lord correctly raises, it is worth reflecting that there has already been a reduction in the number of pharmacies since 2017. There are now some 1,200 fewer pharmacies than we had in 2017 and 600 fewer than there were two years ago. This is a trajectory that we would rather was not the case. Support is available—for example, through the Pharmacy Access Scheme, which provides financial support to pharmacies in areas where there are fewer pharmacies. I can say that we are monitoring access to pharmacies. While it is the case that four in five people live within a 20-minute walk from a community pharmacy, we absolutely recognise that the experiences of patients differ. If we are to see pharmacies as key to future plans for the health services, we will have to address that.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise that the current access to healthcare is based on an outdated model, where far too many patients are unable to book GP appointments online or by telephone in advance. They have to join the 8 am lottery to try to get an appointment by phone, only to be referred later to a pharmacist or hospital. The Pharmacy First reforms introduced by the last Government attempt to unblock the GP surgery bottleneck by allowing patients to access treatment for common health conditions without the need for a GP appointment. To ensure that patients in rural communities equally benefit from the Pharmacy First initiative, is the Minister able to give the House a firm commitment that the Government will continue the Pharmacy First approach and look at how this could be accessed by more patients in rural areas?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am pleased to say that, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, prescribing pilots are going on in NHS England. These will look at what more pharmacies could do in this regard, in particular asking whether more minor illnesses could be dealt with, and whether the long-term management of conditions could be better managed through pharmacies. We will be very interested in what those pilots come up with. They are across the entire country, so will of course include rural areas. This is something that we will want to ensure is available in rural and urban environments.

NHS Blood and Transplant Service: Blood Stocks

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I assure the noble Lord that it is indeed a temporary problem. However, it is likely the alert will go on for a little while yet, not least because, as I mentioned, we can benefit from keeping it in place. I absolutely associate myself with the assessment that it is so much better to be self-sufficient within the United Kingdom, and that will be of great benefit. It is important to realise that this is a situation that we must live with but not be at the mercy of. I also assure the noble Lord and the House that this is because of external factors and not internal factors to do with the service, as was the case in 2022.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for raising this important issue and for his supplementary question. I also thank the Minister for her answers so far. Can she tell your Lordships whether the department has found an obvious reason why these stocks were low, and whether it was a confluence of factors or an unusual occurrence? I was speaking to a noble Lord who is an existing blood donor; he told me that when he read about the shortage he had not yet been contacted. What have the Government and the NHS learned from this experience about what does and does not work, both in the UK and in other countries, when it comes to encouraging the public to come forward to donate blood to avoid future shortages?

Black, Asian and Minority-Ethnic Women: Maternal Mortality Rates

Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Kamall

Monday 29th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will indeed be very pleased to report back to your Lordships’ House on this matter. It is something that greatly concerns me, because it cannot be acceptable that women go into childbirth, which should be a happy and safe occasion, and perhaps come away with trauma, and in some cases families experience death as well. We cannot have a situation like that. I have been very moved by the stories I have heard and will commit to working to put improvements in place, and to sharing that with noble Lords.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to her place. I look forward to working constructively with her as we did when our roles were reversed. Has she read the report by Sands, the baby loss charity? It gave examples of Asian parents being dismissed as either being too anxious or exaggerating their claims, while black parents were stereotyped as feisty or dramatic by some NHS staff. When I was a Minister, a young female civil servant told me about her friend, a young Afro-Caribbean lady whose baby died during birth. When she tried to get the records for what happened that evening, she was told that they had somehow magically disappeared. She was being gaslighted. We know that the majority of NHS staff are highly dedicated but, when we hear stories such as this, what does the Minister believe should be done to tackle the culture of cover-up and gaslighting by that small minority of NHS staff?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks; I am very pleased to see him again across the Dispatch Box. The duty of candour is extremely important in all this. Racism in this area is not just towards mothers and families; as the noble Lord said, it is also towards staff. Clearly, we need to tackle this for both patients and staff. The patient’s voice is key. Even at this early stage, it is quite clear to me that women, and people of black, Asian and minority-ethnic heritage, are not being listened to. We will bring forward plans to put this right. As part of the report to which I referred earlier, I will be glad to update the House in this regard.