Mental Health Bill [HL]

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, during the passage of this Bill, both the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, who is not in his place, have spoken passionately about people with mental health issues in prison. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to Valdo Calocane, and I know that the Government have instigated an inquiry. That particular case was the motivation for Amendments 160BA and 160BB in a later group, to which my noble friend Lord Howe will speak.

During the earlier debates on this, both at Second Reading and in Committee, I was particularly struck by the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on Chief Inspector Charlie Taylor’s graphic description of seriously mentally ill people in prisons being akin to a Victorian nightmare. After that debate, I read some of what Charlie Taylor had said, particularly about his visit in 2022 to Eastwood Park, where he witnessed

“bloodstains on the floor and scratch marks on the walls—evidence of the levels of distress of the women being held there”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, also told the Committee about the experience of prison staff, saying that one of the most difficult things is the danger that prisoners with mental health issues pose to themselves, other prisoners and staff. In fact, Charlie Taylor gave an example of an incident when staff were

“unable to stop one inmate from repeatedly running into a brick wall due to a lack of suitable training”.

These are very important issues that the noble Baroness and other noble Lords are raising.

Given all this and its importance—I know that one of the reasons the Minister was appointed to his position was his experience and passion for prison reform—it seems reasonable to ask the Secretary of State to publish a review of the impact of this Act on prisons and to assess whether it provides for adequate support for ongoing treatment and care in those settings, including adequate staff training. I am sure this will be of help not only to the Secretary of State for the Department of Health and Social Care but to the Ministry of Justice. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for bringing this discussion before the Committee today. This amendment would introduce a new clause, making it a requirement for the Secretary of State to publish a review of the impact and assessment of the provisions of the Act that relate to care and treatment of mentally disordered persons in prisons— this includes under-18s in young offender institutions, IPP prisoners and female prisoners—within 12 months of the day it is passed.

The aim of the criminal justice reforms is to speed up access to specialist in-patient care and ensure that offenders and defendants with severe mental health needs are able to access effective and timely support in the most appropriate setting. We are committed to understanding the impact of these provisions as we monitor any available data. However, these reforms will not come into effect until at least 18 months post Royal Assent. This is to ensure that the necessary operational improvements have been made to enable them to be safely implemented.

We are working closely with health and justice partners to ensure that there is a robust implementation plan in place, and we will scope the feasibility of assessing the impact on all prisoners, including under-18s in young offender institutions, IPP prisoners and female prisoners. Our expectation is that the numbers of these cohorts affected in a prison setting will be small and are unlikely to show up in administrative datasets. However, I reiterate that everyone in our care is important—and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for his comments about the importance of this to me. We are committed to supporting everyone’s rehabilitation, working to ensure that people stay out of prison by leaving in good health.

I am pleased with the feedback on the noble Baroness’s visit to HMP Five Wells. I too have seen some very ill prisoners in HMP Five Wells and many other prisons. That is why the Bill, and the work we are doing to improve our prisons and the chances of prisoners leaving with a one-way ticket, not a return ticket, are so important.

I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that there is already a robust scrutiny landscape in place. We are accountable to several key stakeholders and bodies, including His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons, independent monitoring boards, the Care Quality Commission and the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. We are committed to learning from what works and where we can improve support for vulnerable offenders with severe mental health conditions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for introducing this amendment. It is quite clear that noble Lords across the Committee agree with the Government’s commitment to move the emphasis from sickness to prevention. This amendment is clearly aimed at that, as the noble Baroness has said.

During my time as a Health Minister and since, I have met a number of community and civil society projects, charities and mental health professionals who have shared the amazing work being done across the country to improve the well-being of local communities. I put on record my thanks to the late Baroness Greengross and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, for introducing me to the wonderful world of creative health and to the National Centre for Creative Health. Its work addresses the theme of earlier amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, on the overprescribing of antidepressants and looking at alternatives. We are not saying that medication is a bad thing necessarily. It is very appropriate in some cases, but there are alternatives, such as social prescribing.

The late Lady Greengross introduced me to a wonderful organisation called Intergenerational Music Making, and I put on record my thanks for its work. It invited me to take part in one of its intergenerational music hubs in Guildford last December and, despite being handed a guitar to play along, I found it inspiring to see the difference that music can make in improving well-being and bringing people of all ages together, including some children from a local learning disability charity.

Noble Lords will also know of the equally amazing work done by many social prescribing organisations, using music, art, drama and green spaces. A career in creative health also opens up new opportunities for budding actors and rock stars who can train as drama and music therapists while waiting for their big break. But many do not wish to be stars and actually find their work, combining their passion with improving mental well-being, fulfilling in its own right.

However, one criticism I hear is that, although there is amazing work on well-being in different primary care settings or in different trusts and integrated care systems across the country, the challenge is how we spread the best practice across our system of health and care, while recognising that what works in one area may not always be an off-the-shelf solution in another locality.

The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler —which says that

“Local authorities and commissioning bodies must publish an annual report outlining the steps taken to discharge their duty”


to promote mental health and well-being—may be a way to address this concern. Given that, I hope it is an amendment that the Government will consider. If not, perhaps the Minister can tell your Lordships how the Government intend to encourage the sharing of best practice in improving mental well-being across our system of health and care, particularly across different communities with different needs and different constraints, in order to improve the mental well-being of the nation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for tabling Amendment 160B. We recognise the importance of local organisations taking collective action to promote mental well-being and prevent mental ill-health. However, turning to the amendment very specifically, we do not feel that this amendment suggests the best approach, as there is potential for introducing unnecessary burdens on local authorities and commissioning bodies. It may also be duplicative of other existing duties, such as the Care Act duty, to promote individual well-being.

However, the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall—whom I also thank for his contribution—may be interested to note that the existing prevention concordat for better mental health, a voluntary agreement signed by local authorities and integrated care boards across the country, does involve, for those who sign it, a commitment to take

“evidence based preventive and promotional action to support”

population mental health and well-being.

Through the NHS 10-year plan, which the noble Baroness referred to, and as noble Lords are aware, we aim to encourage stronger partnership working between local government mental health services and the voluntary and community sector—which, as we know, plays a vital role, as the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, described—in order to galvanise that shift, which we all seek, from sickness to prevention. On the basis of the reasons outlined, I hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her remarks and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for his. I am interested to hear about the prevention concordat and hope to hear more about that; I think that could be a useful way forward. Overall, I remain of the view that having something about prevention in this Bill—we have not got it yet—sends out an incredibly important signal.

I am very happy to accept that the way it is currently worded may not be the best and that we could find other ways of doing it. But I would be really disappointed if, in the final piece of legislation, we do not, in some way or another, have something that underlines the importance of prevention. I am not going to go over all the arguments again. I can see us returning to this on Report and, on that basis, I withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I was pleased to see these amendments as well. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, explained why they are important. He has conceded—I tried to imply the same in my own amendment—that it is not necessarily clear how best to raise these issues, but that we need to. If we are seen by the public discussing a mental health Bill, going through the whole thing and refusing to acknowledge one of the big controversies of recent times, which was a mental health issue, it will discredit the Bill when it becomes an Act.

In relation to the reluctance of the NHS trust to publish its investigation and the use of patient confidentiality, I note that the families of the victims saw this very much as an excuse and were very angry about that. It does not help us to have a discussion with the public about mental illness because it then seems as though murder was committed but, somehow, mental illness was used as an excuse. We have all heard that argument being used; that is why I referred to the fact that there was some dispute about whether Calocane should be sent to prison or to hospital. The more openness that we can give this, the less stigma and confusion there will be. We need to have this debate out in the open.

Finally, I have a question on the judge-led inquiry and what we now know from the investigation by the trust. How will that impact this Bill? How, practically, will we be able to incorporate what we have learned from that into our discussion on a whole new piece of legislation on mental health? It would seem that we need to be able to take on board some of the recommendations of the inquiry and what we now know from the investigation by the trust.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for tabling Amendments 160BA and 160BB, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and spoken to by the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Fox.

I say at the outset that I understand the deep concerns raised today by noble Lords. I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincere condolences, and I am sure those of the whole of your Lordships’ House, to the families of Grace O’Malley-Kumar, Barnaby Webber and Ian Coates. The Secretary of State and I have met the bereaved families following these horrific killings, and, rightly, important actions have been taken, which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked about. Indeed, we have to look at what improvements must be made, both at the trust and across the country.

To take this further, NHS England and the Nottinghamshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust have accepted all of the recommendations made following the Section 48 CQC review into this incident, and action has started on implementation. The recently published independent investigation into the care and treatment provided to Valdo Calocane makes a series of recommendations, which NHS England and the Nottinghamshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust have accepted. I reiterate that the Government expect to see swift action to ensure that the recommendations are implemented as soon as possible. As the Prime Minister has confirmed, and as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, acknowledged, there will be a judge-led, statutory public inquiry into this tragic incident.

I now turn specifically to the amendments, and first to Amendment 160BA. We recognise the importance of transparency when there are concerns around a patient’s care, to enable a full understanding of what went wrong and how learning can be applied as a result. The courts already have legal powers to request, and where appropriate compel, disclosure of relevant reports, ensuring judicial access to relevant information. In criminal and civil proceedings, courts can make orders that particular information be provided, or issue witness summonses, while coroners can obtain documents as part of an inquest. There is no clear evidence that courts face systemic barriers in accessing necessary information.

There are also existing mechanisms to provide robust oversight and transparency. NHS England’s patient safety incident response framework sets out clear guidelines for responding to serious incidents involving patients who are detained under the Mental Health Act. Additional scrutiny is provided through investigations by the Health Services Safety Investigations Body and oversight from the CQC.

If information is not disclosed, interested parties already have mechanisms to access information, including judicial review, freedom of information requests and the coronial process for deaths in detention. While courts have the powers set out in the amendment, we absolutely recognise the importance of openness in mental health services, which is why officials are working with NHS England to ensure that information from investigations is as transparent as possible—something that all noble Lords have rightly referred to.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I will keep this brief since I can do no more than back the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, in every word that she has said in support of these two amendments. We are dealing here with a Henry VIII clause that is surely far too permissive given the great sensitivity of the Bill’s entire subject matter and, as the noble Baroness said so well, its momentous significance for the health and well-being of very vulnerable people.

The absolute minimum that Parliament can expect is that Parliament be consulted in the exercise of these powers. The affirmative procedure is therefore entirely appropriate for any statutory instruments made under this clause and I hope the Minister will not disagree with what is proposed.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, for tabling Amendments 160C and 160D, which were introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and spoken to by the noble Earl, Lord Howe.

The proposal in the amendment, as was referred to, was a recommendation in the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I hope that your Lordships’ Committee will welcome that we are actively considering this proposal and will publish our response to the committee’s recommendation ahead of Report.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the statement we have just heard from the Minister. I think it is a good point on which to finish our deliberations tonight and I thank her very much. I also thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his support. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Merron]

161: After Clause 51, insert the following new Clause—
“Power of Welsh Ministers to make consequential provision(1) The Welsh Ministers may by regulations made by statutory instrument make provision that is consequential on this Act.(2) The only provision that may be made by virtue of this section is provision that would be within the legislative competence of Senedd Cymru if contained in an Act of the Senedd.(3) Regulations under this section may amend, repeal or revoke provision made by or under primary legislation passed—(a) before this Act, or(b) later in the same session of Parliament as this Act.(4) In this section “primary legislation” means—(a) an Act, or(b) an Act or Measure of Senedd Cymru.(5) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of Senedd Cymru.” Member's explanatory statement
This confers a regulation-making power on the Welsh Ministers to make consequential provision that is within devolved legislative competence. The Secretary of State has an equivalent power under Clause 51.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Merron]

162: Clause 53, page 64, line 2, leave out “33, 34,” and insert “29(2), 31, 33, 34(1) and (3)(b),”
29(2)
34(1)
(3)(b)
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would provide for certain provisions currently commenced by regulations to be commenced two months after Royal Assent (and vice versa).