Monday 24th February 2025
(1 day, 14 hours ago)
Lords ChamberMental Health Bill [HL] 2024-26 View all Mental Health Bill [HL] 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 47-V Fifth marshalled list for Committee - (20 Feb 2025)
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I am right behind the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, in their Amendment 130. We know, and I believe that by and large we accept, that the Bill is not intended by the Government to hold out the prospect of instantaneous changes to the delivery of mental health care. It offers a series of measures that, over a period of years, should make a material difference to the well-being of a wide range of mentally ill people who require treatment, whether in a secure mental health setting or in the community.
The Minister has spoken of the need to view these measures in the broader context of the NHS 10-year plan and, certainly from the Government’s point of view, that is a perfectly reasonable position to take. However, if that is the Government’s policy, it begs a whole mass of questions around implementation and funding. For example, what do the Government see as the immediate high-priority measures that they wish to introduce? Which measures do they propose to defer, and for how long? What are the costs associated with these changes, both to the NHS and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, pointed out, to the justice system and local government? Bearing in mind Treasury constraints, when realistically do they believe a clear timeline for change will emerge? We have the impact assessment, but how far can we rely on that?
If those questions for the time being have to remain hanging in the air, as I suspect they will, I share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that Parliament, in the not-too-distant future, needs to be given an account of what the longer-term future looks like in a way that reflects not only the Government’s current thinking but, as time goes on, how their thinking evolves, as it surely will. There is therefore a strong case for a report to Parliament sometime in the next few months and on an annual basis thereafter, making clear both the timeline of ambition and the timeline of what in reality is being delivered.
I am conscious that we all need to keep our remarks succinct and to the point, so I will comment only briefly on the other amendments in this group. I am afraid I cannot support Amendment 153 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. I have always believed that what matters most in healthcare is not whether a service is delivered by a public or a private organisation but rather the quality of care to patients and whether good outcomes are achieved at acceptable cost.
Finally, my noble friend Lord Kamall has added his name to Amendments 163 and 164. These amendments stand absolutely four-square with the theme of Amendment 130, and on my noble friend’s behalf I express my warm support for them. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, has said it all.
Just as we accept that we will not get any instant changes arising from the Bill, by a corresponding token, the Government cannot take that as a free pass from Parliament to defer implementing its provisions sine die. We cannot have a situation in which, prior to implementing the provisions, the principle of parity of esteem is quietly put to one side. I hope the Minister will have reassuring words to say on those very important points of principle.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this first debate today, and I start by saying how glad I am—I am sure other noble Lords will say this too—to see the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, in her rightful place. I certainly heard her support for the amendments that we are discussing.
Before I turn to the amendments, it may be helpful to your Lordships’ Committee if I briefly set out some of the high-level plans for implementation of these reforms. I am grateful for the understanding—the noble Earl, Lord Howe, made this point—that time is required. I also understand the emphasis that noble Lords are putting on pace and, of course, we try to match those two things together, but I know we are all agreed on the need to get the Bill in the right place and the Act delivering.
The first priority after Royal Assent will be to draft and consult on the code of practice, and we will be engaging with people with lived experience and their families and carers, staff and professional groups, commissioners, providers and others to do this. The code will be laid before Parliament before final publication, and I am committed to working with noble Lords to ensure that we get this crucial piece of work absolutely right. We expect that this process will take at least a year.
Alongside the code, we will be developing secondary legislation, which will also be laid before Parliament, with more detail on areas such as statutory care and treatment plans. We will then need time to train the existing workforce on the new Act, the regulations and the code. This will likely be in 2026 and 2027, and we intend to commence the first major phase of reforms in 2027.
Of course, some reforms are going to take longer, as noble Lords will appreciate. The noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, tempted me to go even further than five years, and I thank her for the temptation, but I know I will not be able to please her on this occasion. Of course, it takes time to train new second opinion appointed doctors, judges and approved clinicians, so, as set out in the impact assessment, we believe it will take 10 years to fully implement the reforms, but I emphasise that these timelines are indicative, and we will iterate these plans as we get more certainty on future funding and the wider workforce plans. Of course, I fully appreciate the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and accountability of this work, which is crucial, and I am committed to updating the House throughout the implementation period.
Turning to the amendments, I will start with Amendment 130 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, kindly introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I say in response that any implementation plan, as proposed in the amendment, which would be published four months after Royal Assent, would be very unlikely to contain any more detail than is already in the impact assessment. It is important to prioritise drafting the new code and the secondary regulations after Royal Assent. I also confirm to your Lordships’ Committee that we will commission an independent evaluation of the reforms, alongside existing monitoring and reporting by the CQC.
As I have said, I fully expect to update the House during the planning and delivery of the reforms. However, a requirement in primary legislation to publish annually, and within four months of Royal Assent, would be premature.
Amendment 153, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, would prohibit for-profit companies from delivering provisions of the Act. I listened closely to the concerns raised by the noble Baroness, but I do not share the view that a ban on for-profit providers is the right approach, for the reasons that were set out by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. Our focus should indeed be on ensuring that we have high-quality and good value-for-money services. However, I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that we are already investing in a significant quality transformation programme and piloting new models of care to ensure that care is focused on the individual, with maximum therapeutic benefit. That is where our priority lies and for that reason we are resisting this amendment.
Turning to Amendment 163, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Stevens and Lord Kamall, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Neuberger, for bringing this issue before the Committee. As I said in my opening remarks, I too want to see the benefits of these reforms coming into play quickly and effectively. We intend to commence the reforms in phases, because some can be implemented more quickly than others, which need more time. This is not just about money but about building system and workforce capacity. For example, the impact assessment estimates that we need over 400 additional second opinion appointed doctors and over 300 additional approved clinicians. Many of these will be consultant psychiatrists, who would already need to have commenced training prior to the legislation for us to fully implement the Bill within five years, as required by this amendment. Rather than having a fixed deadline, as is proposed, we intend to monitor the impact of investment and test readiness to commence new powers on an ongoing basis, commencing each phase when we are confident that it is safe and effective to do so.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 164, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler of Enfield and Lady Neuberger. I associate myself with the comments about the commitment to treating physical and mental health equally, in line with this Government’s manifesto commitments. The mental health investment standard requires ICB spending on mental health to grow at least in line with overall recurrent funding allocations. Based on total planned spend for 2024-25, we expect all ICBs to meet the standard in this financial year.
There are already mechanisms to ensure that spending on mental health is prioritised. I refer noble Lords to Section 12F of the NHS Act 2006, which requires the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to lay before Parliament an annual document setting out whether they expect NHS England and ICB spending on mental health to increase in the next year. The Secretary of State will publish this statement before the end of this financial year.
As several noble Lords said, funding for mental health spend goes beyond the scope of the Mental Health Act, which aims to improve the care and treatment of individuals who have a mental illness and need to be detained in hospital or subject to restrictions in the community. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that the Act is not the appropriate mechanism for holding the Government to account on mental health spend. I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very comprehensive response and all noble Lords who have spoken. It was very helpful that the Minister started by setting out some of what I think she called the “high-level” plans for implementation. It was good to hear about what is going to happen with the code of practice and about plans to bring forward secondary legislation. I hope I heard correctly that it will be 2027 when we see the first major stage of these reforms starting to happen on the ground. That is the good side of this debate; it is incredibly important, because this is one of those issues where the implementation is as important as the policy, and that is why it is right that we are having this discussion.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, before I begin my remarks, I want to say how pleased my noble friend Lord Howe and I are to see the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, back in her place; I am sure that many noble Lords would echo that sentiment.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, for moving this amendment to establish a statutory mental health commissioner. One of the motivations behind some of the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe is to probe the Government on those recommendations from the pre-legislative Joint Committee that did not make it into this draft Bill. As noble Lords will be aware, and as the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has said, this is one such recommendation of the Joint Committee that did not make the cut.
We did consider tabling a similar amendment ourselves, but I have to admit that the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, did the job very well; there was no need to duplicate that. Having spoken to the noble Baroness and to her noble friend Lord Scriven, I know this is an issue that they and many other noble Lords feel passionate about. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, has today made a very good case for a commissioner. The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, has also spoken of the need for central co-ordination to ensure implementation of the provisions of this Bill—something that was referred to in the last group of amendments.
I pay tribute to the noble Lord as I know that he has considerable experience in the NHS and is all too aware of the problems involved in trying to deliver at scale. However, I admit that I have some reservations about the idea of a mental health commissioner. While I understand the arguments in favour, I am, like the Minister, concerned about the creation of a new bureaucracy that could possibly duplicate functions.
In their response to the recommendations of the Joint Committee, the previous Government noted that
“the government does not believe that a statutory mental health commissioner would add significant value within the framework currently provided by existing bodies”.
The Joint Committee pointed out that a Mental Health Act Commission was established by the Mental Health Act 1983, which stood alongside the Healthcare Commission and the Commission for Social Care Inspection. In 2009, the then Labour Government took the decision to combine these three bodies into one integrated regulator with responsibility for all health and adult social care. I say that not as a political point but as an observation.
Since then, the CQC has undertaken the functions of the previous Mental Health Act Commission, and its remit extends to ensuring protections for those who are detained under the Act or subject to a community treatment order. To do this, the CQC has a number of Mental Health Act reviewers, who can visit patients in hospital and raise concerns about treatment or detention with managers, and then report back to the commission. The CQC also has a dedicated team that assesses complaints about the use of the Mental Health Act, including issues around detention and the use of CTOs.
I also understand that the CQC provides second-opinion appointed doctors for patients who do not have the capacity to consent to treatment under Part 4 of the Act. This Bill strengthens the safeguards around second-opinion appointed doctors, such as creating a clinical checklist that must be certified by the second-opinion doctor.
In addition to the functions of the CQC, local authorities and ICBs provide independent mental health advocates; we have debated those in earlier groups. The Department of Health and Social Care also gives funding to local authorities to commission Healthwatch services, of which I understand there are about 152 across the country. Healthwatch is another statutory organisation that gathers feedback from the users and ensures that NHS leaders listen to and, hopefully, incorporate that feedback.
As we have seen, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, alongside the CQC, supports individuals to raise complaints against the private sector, the NHS and all public health authorities.
The point I am trying to make is that there appears to be a plethora of services and public bodies that work to oversee the function of the Mental Health Act and try to ensure that patients have a voice in their care and treatment. While I appreciate that some of the proposed duties of the commissioner would be unique to that role, there appear to be elements of duplication in that role and those of existing public bodies. However, I am also conscious of the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, about being complementary.
So, while I hear the arguments on both sides, I am still slightly sceptical about whether we need a stand-alone mental health commissioner. To be fair, we have not completely made up our minds yet, and my noble friend Lord Howe and I are weighing up the arguments. For that reason, I ask the Minister to help these deliberations by clarifying a few points. First, will she confirm whether the CQC will take on the role of implementing the provisions of the Bill? Perhaps more importantly, how will it be able to fulfil that function effectively, given the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, and others and their strong feeling in favour of an independent mental health commissioner?
What action will the Department of Health and Social Care take to ensure oversight of the CQC’s role in the implementation of this legislation? If the Government remain opposed to the creation of a commissioner, can the Minister reassure your Lordships on how existing bodies will address the Bill’s implementation and accountability for its implementation, without the need for a stand-alone mental health commissioner?
I hope the Minister is able to give these assurances. Otherwise, given what was said today by other noble Lords, I am sure we will come back to this issue on Report.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for tabling Amendment 131, supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Murphy, and my noble friend Lord Bradley. As noble Lords are aware, I understand the intent behind the amendment. We have carefully considered the proposed functions of the commissioner that it outlines, and we recognise that improvements are needed to ensure that the system works effectively. But as noble Lords are aware, we do not feel that a new body is the answer. As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, said, it may only duplicate existing functions, rather than providing the clarity and leadership that I know everyone is seeking. I was particularly interested to hear the noble Lord give his reflections on the opinions of the previous Government about a proposed mental health commissioner.
Overseeing implementation of the reforms is the role of the Department of Health and Social Care, working with NHS England, the Ministry of Justice and the CQC in England, and, in Wales, with the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales.
On the interaction between this legislation and the Mental Capacity Act, we are committed to keeping that under close review to minimise challenges potentially faced by front-line professionals.
The annual report by the commissioner proposed in the amendment would overlap with the CQC’s annual Monitoring the Mental Health Act report. The CQC’s annual statutory reporting reflects the views of thousands of patients interviewed each year by the CQC. Many of the issues that the commissioner would assess and report on, such as the accessibility of advice and the quality of services, are already reported on by the CQC.
It is proposed that the commissioner would examine cases of people detained under the Act. This clearly overlaps with the functions of the CQC and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, which have a statutory duty to monitor and, where appropriate, to investigate. The Act provides the regulator with similar powers—for example, to gather information to support it in exercising these powers.
The Health Services Safety Investigations Body is responsible for conducting independent investigations into patient safety concerns across England to identify ways to improve mental health care and patient safety. It has just concluded a series of investigations into in-patient mental health care and is currently undertaking further work.
With regard to the proposed commissioner’s general powers, it is the Government’s role, with NHS England, to ensure sufficient capacity and resources in the system. It is the role of NHSE’s national director for mental health and the medical director for mental health and neurodiversity, newly established last year, to oversee and take forward improvements to mental health services. It is already the role of the regulator to safeguard the rights and welfare of patients, while other organisations independently investigate complaints.
Minimising duplication with these organisations and functions would require significant remodelling of the system, interrupting ongoing programmes and responsibilities that are important to the smooth delivery of the Mental Health Act reforms. Having said that, we recognise that improvements need to be made in the quality of care and the patient safety landscape. We are committed to that goal and intend to overhaul the healthcare system to make it better for all patients.
The CQC has already begun to implement the recommendations made by Dr Penny Dash and Professor Sir Mike Richards: a new chief inspector for mental health will use their independent voice to amplify and respond to the experiences and outcomes of people who use services. Implementation of Mental Health Act reform will be at the top of their “to do” list.
On the wider landscape, we expect to hear soon from Dr Dash who, as noble Lords have said, is reviewing the broad range of organisations that impact on quality and safety, many of which I have mentioned today, and is due to report on whether greater value could be achieved through a different delivery model.
Reference was made in the debate to the role of the Children’s Commissioner, which the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, particularly focused on. I want to place on record my gratitude to the Children’s Commissioner for the work done on children’s mental health. But, in reflecting on the debate earlier, I should say that the Children’s Commissioner is operating in a rather difference landscape. The proposed mental health commissioner would have a much narrower purview that, for the reasons I have stated, risks overlapping with existing organisations in a way that the Children’s Commissioner does not. I understand why the Children’s Commissioner is being looked to, but I cannot draw that direct comparison myself.
The challenges we have heard about in this debate have highlighted areas we need further to focus our efforts on. I look forward to speaking to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, about this topic this week, and I am sure that I will have further conversations about it. For all these reasons, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw Amendment 131.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and thank other noble Lords for their support: in some cases, strong support; in others, what I can only describe as support up to a point—if you know what I mean.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, was right to say that we on these Benches feel passionate about this. We think it has the potential to make a real difference and transform not just mental health services at the crisis end—the detention end—but how the whole mental health landscape works.
I would just say in response that I am slightly surprised that the Government consider the current arrangements to be satisfactory. The Joint Committee clearly did not. It spent an awful lot of time looking into this and made a recommendation for a reason.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for moving this amendment. Unlike in the last group of amendments, where there was limited support, we fully support her on this one. We know that the noble Baroness has tirelessly campaigned for better support for those with eating disorders. At Second Reading, she shared the experience of living with such disorders, and we all became much more familiar with some of the concerns. I also agree with my noble friend Lady Browning that it is about time we stopped treating all people with mental ill-health the same; we know that we have to look at it in far more granular detail.
The amendment speaks to the problems around the adequacy of provision of care for patients suffering with eating disorders. As the noble Baroness said, Section 140 of the Mental Health Act provides for reception of patients in cases of special emergency and the provision of accommodation and facilities suitable for under-18s, but it applies only to hospitals. I agree that there is a reasonable case to extend this to specialist eating disorder units. With that in mind, I hope the Minister will be receptive to this amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for bringing Amendment 132 to your Lordships’ Committee, for raising this important issue, for sharing at Second Reading, as the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, said, her personal experience of her daughter’s treatment and for sharing her overall experience of the provision of services today. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, made the important point about different conditions needing different provision and support. That was amplified by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord.
Eating disorders are of course serious mental health challenges, and it is vital that those with them can access effective help quickly. We will continue to work closely with NHS England to improve access to the right and timely care and treatment for those with an eating disorder.
The purpose of Section 140 is to ensure that approved mental health professionals are aware of the services available to help them to locate hospital beds in special cases. The intention of the amendment is to extend the duty on health authorities to notify local authorities of arrangements for urgent cases and under-18s to include specialist eating disorder units.
Section 140 applies to arrangements for people who need in-patient treatment in a hospital. That includes specialist eating disorder units where they provide in-patient treatment in a hospital setting and are appropriate for someone to be detained in. Therefore, while I understand the points being made, it is not necessary to specify that Section 140 applies to specialist eating disorder units. I hope the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to Members around the Committee who have shared my concerns about the need for proper provision for people with eating disorders. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, rightly identified that there is a need for mental health provision to focus on the particular illnesses and to treat each appropriately.
I knew that my amendment would not be accepted; I was just desperate to find some way to raise this important issue, but I am grateful that my poor attempt has at least allowed for a debate in Committee and allowed me to share with Members a bit more about what it actually means if you are in a specialist eating disorder unit for a very long time. I would still love to see the words in the Bill, because every time ICBs and others think about provision for people with mental illnesses, including eating disorders, specialist eating disorder units should be in there, but I am not going to press the point either here or in the future. I am grateful for the support around the Committee, and I will keep trying to raise the issue whenever I can. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I will be brief on this one. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for this amendment and thank all noble Lords, who made very valid points.
Clearly, this is another sensible proposal, highlighting as it does the importance of making sure that the ICBs commission sufficient mental health services in the community to meet the demand for them. As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, where will people go in the middle of the night? I know that we will come back to some of these issues when we discuss the group on mental well-being but I thought it was important that those points were raised now.
The Committee may remember that this was the subject of Amendment 139 in the name of my noble friend Lord Howe, who spoke to it on the second day in Committee. The main difference between those amendments is, I think, that the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, wishes to get ICBs focused on this very important task as soon as the Bill becomes law—and I agree with her intention on that. My only fear around the wording as it is currently drafted—I recognise that it is a probing amendment—is that
“insofar as is reasonably practical”
may provide an excuse, or, as we say, the proverbial long grass into which this duty could be conveniently kicked. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on both these amendments. I turn first to Amendment 134 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and spoken to by my noble friend Lady Ramsey and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, both of whom shared real-life examples to illustrate what is being spoken about here.
This duty to consider mental health needs, as well as the needs of those with a learning disability and autistic people, in the community as well as in hospital is already covered by ICBs under the National Health Service Act 2006, as amended by the Health and Care Act 2022. An ICB must arrange for the provision of services to such extent as it considers necessary to meet the reasonable requirements of the people for whom it has responsibility.
ICBs and their mental health trusts are also required to prepare a joint forward plan that describes how the ICB will arrange for NHS services to meet its population’s physical and mental health needs, and the needs of those with a learning disability and autistic people.
On the general point with regard to the long-term workforce plan, which the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, mentioned, it will report in a few months’ time, later in the year, which I hope will give a lot more substance to answer the kinds of questions that are being raised. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, asked about incremental requirements for psychiatrists on a year-by-year and whole-time-equivalent basis. I say to the noble Lord that the impact assessment sets out our best estimate at this point, but the plans need to be seen as somewhat iterative. With regard to further specific questions, including those raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, I will indeed be glad to write.
Turning now to Amendment 157, in the name of my noble friend Lord Davies and spoken to by the noble Lady Baroness, Lady Bennett, as we have already discussed in relation to Amendment 134, there is already a duty on ICBs to provide sufficient hospital and community services under the National Health Service Act 2006. Furthermore, chapter 16 of the Mental Health Act code of practice already states that local authorities, NHS commissioners, hospitals, police forces and ambulance services should have local partnership arrangements in place to deal with people experiencing crises in mental health.
We accept that there are issues with bed capacity and patient flow, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I will resist using the term “patient pathway”, but I certainly agree that they are part of what happens to a patient and they are indeed linked—whatever form of words we choose to use. That is why, in the recent NHS planning guidance, we have tasked local systems with reducing the length of stay in mental health wards and have committed £26 million to improve mental health crisis care, with a further £75 million to reduce inappropriate out-of-area placement. All this is already in train and does not suggest a requirement for primary legislation. So, for these reasons, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister yet again for her response. We have had a number of discussions so far this afternoon in this broad area, and indeed, as was alluded to, on previous Committee days. They are interrelated, so it is sometimes hard to separate the individual groups. I think at the very heart of all of our discussions is concern about two things: first, how we ensure that there is sufficient provision within the community to provide the sorts of services we all hope to see and which are fundamental to the successful implementation of the Bill; and, secondly—I think this came out very clearly—the need for really good workforce planning and understanding it on a year-by-year basis.
I was encouraged to hear from the Minister that we can expect to see the long-term workforce plan—I think she said—in a few months’ time. I very much look forward to that. I hope it includes some of the workforce planning and modelling of community provision that my noble friend Lady Barker referred to, and I hope, above all things, that it is slightly clearer than the impact assessment, which, I have to be honest—it may just be me; it might have been late at night when I was looking at it—I found somewhat on the opaque side. I am really hoping for greater clarity when we see the long-term workforce plan. This issue is not going to go away. In what form we return to it at Report, I am not quite sure, but, for the moment, on that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton for raising what is a very real issue, among many we are debating today in Committee. I thank him for Amendment 135, supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett, Lady Neuberger and Lady Tyler, and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. I certainly agree that breathing space can indeed be what could be described as a lifebelt for people in problem debt, especially where this is worsening or is indeed a trigger for their mental illness, as my noble friend Lord Davies spelled out and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, endorsed.
Individuals who are detained in hospital for assessment or treatment under the Mental Health Act are eligible for this scheme, as are those receiving crisis treatment in the community from a specialist mental health service. Approved mental health professionals can refer eligible individuals to protect them from debt enforcement. These professionals are often the first on the scene when a person is in crisis and are responsible for arranging assessment for treatment under the Act. Therefore, when a person is admitted to hospital, they may already have been enrolled in the scheme and, if not, NHS England guidance sets out the financial support, including referral to breathing space, that should be offered to patients receiving acute in-patient mental health care, whether detained or voluntary. I can say to your Lordships’ Committee that we do intend to make this an explicit requirement in the Mental Health Act code of practice.
I feel that is particularly important as my noble friend Lord Davies raised the point about uptake. Certainly, I recognise that uptake has been lower for the scheme than originally anticipated. While we do not believe this is a representation of the scheme significantly underperforming, I assure my noble friend that we will continue to keep the scheme under review to ensure that it is working effectively for those who need it, and needed indeed it is. It is for these reasons that I hope that my noble friend will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate; the case was made clearly by everyone. I thank particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, for the additional point about the pressure on clinical staff. This issue was, of course, raised in the earlier amendments about the code of practice and the treatment plan; they are all of a piece. I will consider carefully what my noble friend the Minister said, and perhaps we will have some discussions, and we will see where they go. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, I am only marginally less shocked than the noble and learned Baroness. The reason for that is that I regularly visited a friend in an adult ward, suffering, funnily enough, from eating disorders, among other things. So I support Amendment 144 most strongly. What shocked me was that, over several years, there were two children I saw. They were witnessing not only acts of violence but sexual acts too that were quite clear—I will not go into the details, but it was completely inappropriate for a child to be witnessing this.
The final point I want to make hinges on what we have also heard: that there is only so much we can do. Of course, the reason for that, and it is another reason why these experiences are seared into my mind, is the state of funding for mental health. No one can turn that switch on immediately, but the root problem here is that this is a sector that is somehow pushed to the side. Therein lies a fundamental reason why we have to take a completely different attitude to mental health, and I am sure that the Minister feels quite strongly about that herself.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I will turn first to Amendments 142, 143 and 144, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and joined by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, on Amendment 143 and 144. I will also address Amendment 159 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge.
I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for the way in which he introduced this subject and for the understanding and shock shared by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I am sure we all share the thoughts and views that they have expressed. I also thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his reference to Blooming Change. I certainly recognise the important work that it does. The way he introduced its observations and experience really highlighted the reality of what we are here to deal with.
On Amendment 142, it is crucial that people with physical disabilities have equal access to mental health services. Under the Equality Act 2010, those providing mental health services, including under the Mental Health Act, must make reasonable adjustments to ensure that people with disabilities are not at a disadvantage. Therefore, the aims of this amendment are already covered by existing legislative requirements. I heard what the noble Lord said about an example of where this was not the case. I can only add my own comment to say that this is, of course, not acceptable and not at all how legislation would expect a provider to act.
We will review the guidance on how to support individuals with a physical disability, including children, when we consult on the revised code of practice and as part of NHS England’s new service specification, which will set out requirements for children and young people’s mental health services. I hope that will be helpful to meet the points raised in Amendment 142.
I turn now to Amendments 143, 144 and 159. The policy of NHS England is clear that children and young people should be able to access the right type of service, as close to home as possible and in the least restrictive environment. We do not want to see children and young people on adult wards or placed far from home. We are working to secure the necessary investment to expand community-based support and specialist beds to prevent this from happening. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for referring to the need to deal with where we are rather than where we might like to be. That is what we intend to do.
There are already provisions in the Act that seek to limit inappropriate placements for children and young people. Under Section 131A, hospital managers must ensure that the patient’s environment is suitable, having regard to their age. We believe that the careful consideration and nuance involved in determining any circumstances where it is in a child’s best interest to be treated on an adult ward or in an out-of-area placement fits better in a revised code of practice rather than legislation, which would apply fixed rules that could not be adapted to individual circumstances or service provision.
We will provide additional guidance on the process to determine, and review throughout a child’s detention and treatment, that the environment in which they are accommodated continues to be in their interests. Such matters can be addressed through the new service specification for specialised children and young people’s mental health services.
I assure the Committee that there are already clear operational processes in place to identify and monitor children and young people in inappropriate placements. It is a statutory requirement for the CQC to be notified within 48 hours if a child or young person is placed on an adult ward. The CQC reports on the number of people under 18 admitted to adult wards as part of its Monitoring the Mental Health Act reports.
The CQC project on improving regulation for children inappropriately placed will identify what CQC can do to prevent children being cared for by providers who cannot meet their needs and to reduce their risks of being exposed to poor-quality care. I assure the Committee that we will review the process for who should be notified, and in what circumstances, in the new service specification for specialised children and young people’s mental health services, and in the revised Mental Health Act code of practice.
I turn to Amendment 160, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, on the extension of Section 17 of the Children Act 1989 to include children detained under the Mental Health Act. Section 17 places a duty on local authorities to provide support for children who are unlikely to reach or maintain a satisfactory level of health or development, or where their health or development would be significantly impaired without the provision of services—or where the child is disabled.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, we on these Benches offer our support to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for her two very thoughtful amendments and the way in which she introduced them. However, I want to turn our attention to Amendment 146, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe.
I was a colleague of Norman Lamb, who was formerly a Minister in the department. He was one of the people who was, as a Minister, most active in addressing the issue of the overuse of force in mental health. This is a campaign that he has continued to develop in his chairmanship of South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust. It is a subject that I am very glad we are focusing on again.
Anybody who has visited a mental health facility in which there are people who are having acute episodes will know that there are times when, for the safety of the person and the safety of others, it is necessary sometimes to use restraint. However, as I think the noble Earl was alluding to in his introduction, the overuse and frequent use of force is often an indicator of substandard care. Therefore, it is very important that incidences of use of force and the reasons for it, as in his carefully crafted amendment, are recorded.
There are two things that I want to pick up with the noble Earl. His amendment is very carefully crafted. In his introduction to it, he referred throughout to children, but his amendment relates not just to children but to all mental health patients. For that reason, I wish to concentrate on proposed new subsection (9). It says:
“In subsection (4)(k) the ‘relevant characteristics’ in relation to a patient mean—”,
and then lists all of the protected characteristics within the Equality Act, with one omission: gender reassignment. I therefore wish to ask him simply why people undergoing gender reassignment do not merit the same protection as everybody else.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank noble Lords for their contributions. Let me first turn to Amendment 146, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall.
The amendment largely replicate duties under Section 6 of the Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018 for all patients in NHS mental health units. We recognise that the data suggests that the use of force for children and young people is still far too high, and we are working with NHS England to address this. Although the section I have referred to has not yet been commenced, the guidance is published and the data is already being recorded and reported, and we plan to commence the duty formally later this year. The amendment as drafted would capture a much broader range of patients than the use of force Act does—for example, all patients who are being treated for dementia or delirium in an acute hospital. Furthermore, it is not clear what use will be made of that data. Therefore, the volume of new data collection processes could be significant, but the benefits that would result from this are somewhat unclear.
I turn to Amendments 155 and 156, which have been put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, regarding long-term segregation. The amendments are supported by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and my noble friend Lady Ramsey, both of whom made important contributions to the debate.
Like other noble Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for her work on this issue over many years, including her significant report, My Heart Breaks, which the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, rightly referenced. We are here today, I believe, in no small part due to the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and others who have fought for better outcomes for people under the Mental Health Act. I thank them all.
Baroness Hollins (CB)
There seemed to be an assumption that long-term segregation would continue and that perhaps ICETRs are not effective, but one thing that emerges from an independently chaired review is some learning about the barriers in place and the reasons why LTS is being used, rather than more therapeutic options. That is the reason for this kind of oversight being necessary. It is not necessarily that the ICETR itself will lead to recommendations being implemented; in my report, we found that the recommendations were not being followed—they were made and then not followed through. There needs to be much more effort to try to learn from what is happening and begin to change the culture of LTS as an okay response to somebody’s distress.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I understand that point, and the noble Baroness makes it very well. I simply refer her to the points that I made about needing to look at evidence, the outcomes and the value of those reviews, and whether that is the right approach for everyone. I take on board her point, but my comments probably tell the Committee that we feel that there is more work to be done in this area.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once again, I express my appreciation to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I highlight in particular the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, which I found extremely powerful and persuasive, as did other noble Lords.
It strikes me that this is an especially appropriate grouping of amendments. The overuse of restraint in mental health settings and the use of completely untherapeutic long-term segregation are equally pressing and emotive concerns.
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, pulled me up slightly on the issue of protection for those undergoing gender reassignment. The concern that I had in drafting the amendment was to cover protected characteristics across the piece, but she has drawn my attention to a lacuna, and I am very grateful.
I was somewhat disappointed with the Minister’s reply on the issue of restraint applied to mental health patients, which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, pointed out, is an issue affecting adult patients as well as children. The amendment was drafted with precisely that in mind. The point that I sought to make was that, despite the statute law to which the Minister referred, the incidence of restraint on children in particular has rocketed, which raises questions about clinical practice, staffing and training around the code of practice. To my mind, it was a pity that the Minister had little to say about those possible areas for practical follow-up.
I shall read again what the Minister said about my amendment between now and Report. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his reflection on both the Almighty and our legal friends, and I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate on these amendments.
I turn first to Amendment 149 and thank my noble friend Lady Keeley, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, not just for tabling the amendment but for the time and attention they and their expert advisers have given to this. It has been much appreciated. I take this opportunity to express my condolences to the family of Paul Sammut for the tragic loss of their loved one.
We recognise the concern around unequal coverage and rights to redress under the Human Rights Act. The Sammut judgment highlighted the need to clarify the position of private health and care providers under the Human Rights Act when providing care arranged and paid for by the NHS or local authorities, something that has come up a number of times in our debates. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for their good humour and their expert contributions on this matter. We are actively considering this matter and I look forward to engaging further with my noble friend Lady Keeley and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, ahead of Report.
On Amendment 160BC in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, deprivation of liberty for the treatment of a physical health disorder is always an important decision. We are concerned that this amendment would, in effect, remove the need for a separate authorisation where physical health treatment is needed. We do not think it is right to undermine the protections available under the Mental Health Act to patients who are already, as we have heard, in a vulnerable position.
Furthermore, the situation this amendment applies to is rare and, where it does arise, there are already frameworks in place to authorise a deprivation of liberty. These include: Section 17 leave under the Mental Health Act; deprivation of liberty safeguards under the Mental Capacity Act; and, in certain circumstances, the High Court. The safeguards provided by these frameworks are different, and decision-makers must use their professional judgment to decide which is most appropriate for the individual. We feel that retaining this flexibility is important.
While we recognise that there is, at times, confusion among clinical professionals around which legal framework to apply—it is a point well made—we do not believe that this amendment would bring the necessary clarity. We feel this is best clarified using the Mental Health Act code of practice. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that I will reflect on the detailed points that he raised and will be happy to write to him further on them. For all these reasons, I urge noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Baroness Barker (LD)
Before the Minister sits down, I thank her very much, but I wonder whether she could include some of the rest of us in her correspondence with the noble Earl? We are back to the same issue of the interface between the Mental Health Act and the Mental Capacity Act. We need to keep coming back to this to get more clarity on it, because nobody understands it now. Whatever the Minister comes up with will be only a sticking plaster until the point at which we recognise that these two pieces of legislation continue to rub up against each other and cause confusion. They need to be addressed together.
So, would the Minister please include more of us in the correspondence, including the noble Baroness, Lady Browning? A number of speeches she has made throughout our deliberations have indicated that this is exactly the sort of issue that she is concerned about, too.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
Yes indeed, I will be pleased to include the noble Lords referred to.
Baroness Keeley (Lab)
I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate today, including the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who has supported the work we have done on this, my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti and Justice, which I should have mentioned earlier. I am very thankful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for bringing their expertise. I thank my noble friend the Minister for her positive response and I look forward to talking to her more about this and taking forward this amendment. But for now, I beg leave to withdraw.