Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Tyler of Enfield Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

130: After Clause 50, insert the following new Clause—
“Cost and implementation reporting(1) The Secretary of State must lay a report before Parliament four months after the passage of the Act, and annually thereafter, assessing the costs and implementation dates of provisions in the Act.(2) The report must include details on—(a) the monetised and non-monetised costs to the health and social care system;(b) the monetised and non-monetised costs to the justice system;(c) costs associated with additional training for NHS staff responsible for treatment provisions;(d) costs related to community care services and infrastructure;(e) costs for additional training for approved mental health practitioners and independent mental health advocates;(f) additional costs incurred by local authorities;(g) housing and care-related costs for individuals with autism or learning disabilities; (h) additional costs incurred by the Care Quality Commission;(i) costs for training responsible clinicians and other relevant parties involved in patient care.(3) The report must also include a monitoring and evaluation strategy for the reforms introduced by the Act, including—(a) commencement timelines for the Act’s provisions;(b) an assessment of the Act’s impact on patient outcomes including user feedback; (c) relevant data to evaluate whether the reforms are being delivered as intended;(d) assessments of the impact of new safeguards and support mechanisms on patient and carer experiences.(4) Following the publication of the first report, the Secretary of State must arrange for the tabling of—(a) a motion for resolution on the report in the House of Commons moved by a Minister of the Crown, and(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report moved by a Minister of the Crown.(5) If the report is rejected by the House of Commons, the Secretary of State must deliver a statement to Parliament within a period of three months which addresses the contents of the report.(6) Subsequent reports are not subject to the provisions of subsection (4).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to present a report to Parliament detailing the costs and implementation assessments of the Act after one year, and annually thereafter. The first report published under this provision must be subject to a resolution motion in both Houses of Parliament.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 130 in the name of my noble friend Lord Scriven, who is unable to be in his place today. On these Benches, our view is that this amendment is essential to the success of reforms proposed in this Bill. It would ensure not only accountability but the continuous assessment of costs and implementation timelines related to the vital provisions of the Bill. In short, it is a costed plan. It is grouped with various other important amendments, some of which I strongly support.

The issue we have repeatedly encountered in both mental health policy and community care is that we end up with community but very little actual care within it. This gap leads to preventable health crises, placing individuals and services under immense strain. Therefore, we must do everything to avoid this outcome. Yet so far in Committee we have not heard the necessary reassurances that adequate provisions will be in place nor that they have been properly costed and strategically planned for community care.

At its core, this amendment champions the need for transparency in the investment and execution of mental health care, specifically within community settings, where the demand will be greatest when the changes in legislation are brought forward. We cannot afford to enact these mental health reforms without a clear understanding of their financial and structural impact on the health and social care system, the justice system, local authorities and, most importantly, the lives of those who rely on these services.

In short, the amendment would require the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament within four months of the passage of the Bill and annually thereafter. The report would provide a detailed assessment of both the monetised and non-monetised costs associated with the provisions of the Bill. Specifically, it would outline the financial commitments necessary for the training of NHS staff and approved mental health professionals, the expansion of community care services and the provision of adequate housing and care for individuals with autism or learning disabilities. Furthermore, the amendment would ensure that the Care Quality Commission was adequately resourced to uphold the highest standards of mental health provision. These are fundamental requirements, because without a clear cost framework and implementation plan, we risk leaving individuals in crisis without the support they need.

However, it is important to say that the amendment is not simply about numbers; it is about real lives. The monitoring and evaluation strategy included within this proposal would ensure that reforms were not just theoretical but delivered tangible improvements in patient care. It would require the Secretary of State to assess patient outcomes, collect user feedback and measure the effectiveness of new safeguards and support mechanisms.

If we fail to scrutinise and report on the costs and impact of this legislation, we risk underfunding critical services, delaying implementation, and ultimately failing those who are most vulnerable. Mental health services, particularly those delivered in the community, are a necessity and not a luxury. They prevent hospitalisations, support recovery and uphold the dignity of those living with mental health conditions. This amendment would ensure that these services were not only established but were adequately funded, effectively implemented and continuously improved.

I turn briefly to Amendments 163 and 164 from the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, which I see as complementary and mutually reinforcing to Amendment 130. In particular, Amendment 164 would ensure that mental health funding was not cut as a share of overall health service funding until this Act was fully implemented. The amendment supports the principle of parity of esteem by putting a floor under the aggregate mental health service funding share in England; in essence, enshrining the mental health investment standard in law, something that we very much support. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in speaking chiefly to my Amendment 153, I shall say briefly that I very much agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, just said and support, as does she, the related amendments that come after this. They interrelate with an amendment of mine that was discussed earlier in Committee about the funding of community services. Funding is the great issue right across the board, and it is essential that there is something in the Bill that addresses that. My amendment, although it looks somewhat different from the others in this group, is closely related to them, because, as the noble Baroness said, we have to be concerned about the implementation of the Bill and not just its nature.

My amendment says that for-profit companies should not deliver under the Bill. It does that in two ways. It says:

“Any new facilities or organisations created to deliver the provisions of this Act must not be operated by for-profit companies”.


It then says that within five years of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must ensure that what is now for-profit in this space is transferred to not-for-profit. Why is that essential to implementation? I shall put it into three categories.

The first is the cost of paying profits from what should be money for the provision of services. The second is quality issues associated with for-profit companies; after all, their directors and management have a duty to maximise the return to shareholders. That is the way that for-profit companies are set up in this country. The third is that there are issues of stability.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this first debate today, and I start by saying how glad I am—I am sure other noble Lords will say this too—to see the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, in her rightful place. I certainly heard her support for the amendments that we are discussing.

Before I turn to the amendments, it may be helpful to your Lordships’ Committee if I briefly set out some of the high-level plans for implementation of these reforms. I am grateful for the understanding—the noble Earl, Lord Howe, made this point—that time is required. I also understand the emphasis that noble Lords are putting on pace and, of course, we try to match those two things together, but I know we are all agreed on the need to get the Bill in the right place and the Act delivering.

The first priority after Royal Assent will be to draft and consult on the code of practice, and we will be engaging with people with lived experience and their families and carers, staff and professional groups, commissioners, providers and others to do this. The code will be laid before Parliament before final publication, and I am committed to working with noble Lords to ensure that we get this crucial piece of work absolutely right. We expect that this process will take at least a year.

Alongside the code, we will be developing secondary legislation, which will also be laid before Parliament, with more detail on areas such as statutory care and treatment plans. We will then need time to train the existing workforce on the new Act, the regulations and the code. This will likely be in 2026 and 2027, and we intend to commence the first major phase of reforms in 2027.

Of course, some reforms are going to take longer, as noble Lords will appreciate. The noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, tempted me to go even further than five years, and I thank her for the temptation, but I know I will not be able to please her on this occasion. Of course, it takes time to train new second opinion appointed doctors, judges and approved clinicians, so, as set out in the impact assessment, we believe it will take 10 years to fully implement the reforms, but I emphasise that these timelines are indicative, and we will iterate these plans as we get more certainty on future funding and the wider workforce plans. Of course, I fully appreciate the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and accountability of this work, which is crucial, and I am committed to updating the House throughout the implementation period.

Turning to the amendments, I will start with Amendment 130 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, kindly introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I say in response that any implementation plan, as proposed in the amendment, which would be published four months after Royal Assent, would be very unlikely to contain any more detail than is already in the impact assessment. It is important to prioritise drafting the new code and the secondary regulations after Royal Assent. I also confirm to your Lordships’ Committee that we will commission an independent evaluation of the reforms, alongside existing monitoring and reporting by the CQC.

As I have said, I fully expect to update the House during the planning and delivery of the reforms. However, a requirement in primary legislation to publish annually, and within four months of Royal Assent, would be premature.

Amendment 153, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, would prohibit for-profit companies from delivering provisions of the Act. I listened closely to the concerns raised by the noble Baroness, but I do not share the view that a ban on for-profit providers is the right approach, for the reasons that were set out by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. Our focus should indeed be on ensuring that we have high-quality and good value-for-money services. However, I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that we are already investing in a significant quality transformation programme and piloting new models of care to ensure that care is focused on the individual, with maximum therapeutic benefit. That is where our priority lies and for that reason we are resisting this amendment.

Turning to Amendment 163, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Stevens and Lord Kamall, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Neuberger, for bringing this issue before the Committee. As I said in my opening remarks, I too want to see the benefits of these reforms coming into play quickly and effectively. We intend to commence the reforms in phases, because some can be implemented more quickly than others, which need more time. This is not just about money but about building system and workforce capacity. For example, the impact assessment estimates that we need over 400 additional second opinion appointed doctors and over 300 additional approved clinicians. Many of these will be consultant psychiatrists, who would already need to have commenced training prior to the legislation for us to fully implement the Bill within five years, as required by this amendment. Rather than having a fixed deadline, as is proposed, we intend to monitor the impact of investment and test readiness to commence new powers on an ongoing basis, commencing each phase when we are confident that it is safe and effective to do so.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 164, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler of Enfield and Lady Neuberger. I associate myself with the comments about the commitment to treating physical and mental health equally, in line with this Government’s manifesto commitments. The mental health investment standard requires ICB spending on mental health to grow at least in line with overall recurrent funding allocations. Based on total planned spend for 2024-25, we expect all ICBs to meet the standard in this financial year.

There are already mechanisms to ensure that spending on mental health is prioritised. I refer noble Lords to Section 12F of the NHS Act 2006, which requires the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to lay before Parliament an annual document setting out whether they expect NHS England and ICB spending on mental health to increase in the next year. The Secretary of State will publish this statement before the end of this financial year.

As several noble Lords said, funding for mental health spend goes beyond the scope of the Mental Health Act, which aims to improve the care and treatment of individuals who have a mental illness and need to be detained in hospital or subject to restrictions in the community. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that the Act is not the appropriate mechanism for holding the Government to account on mental health spend. I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very comprehensive response and all noble Lords who have spoken. It was very helpful that the Minister started by setting out some of what I think she called the “high-level” plans for implementation. It was good to hear about what is going to happen with the code of practice and about plans to bring forward secondary legislation. I hope I heard correctly that it will be 2027 when we see the first major stage of these reforms starting to happen on the ground. That is the good side of this debate; it is incredibly important, because this is one of those issues where the implementation is as important as the policy, and that is why it is right that we are having this discussion.

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Moved by

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

131: After Clause 50, insert the following new Clause—
“Mental Health CommissionerAfter section 142B of the Mental Health Act 1983, insert—“Mental Health Commissioner
142C Independent Mental Health Commissioner: establishment(1) There is to be an office known as the Office of the Mental Health Commissioner.(2) The Office in subsection (1) must be established by the Secretary of State three months after the day on which the Mental Health Act 2025 is passed.(3) The Office of the Mental Health Commissioner will be led by an individual appointed by the Secretary of State titled the “Independent Mental Health Commissioner”.(4) The role in subsection (3) is referred to as the “Mental Health Commissioner”.142D Functions of the Commissioner(1) The Mental Health Commissioner is responsible for overseeing the implementation and operability of functions discharged by relevant bodies and persons under the provisions of this Act and the Mental Health Act 2025, particularly regarding the provision of treatment, care, and detention of people with a mental disorder.(2) The Mental Health Commissioner is also responsible for overseeing the implementation and operability of functions discharged by relevant bodies and persons under this Act which relate to the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and the Mental Health Act 2007.(3) The Mental Health Commissioner must publish an annual report on the use of functions discharged under this Act, which must assess—(a) the quality of mental health care treatment provided by relevant services;(b) the accessibility of mental health care treatment services;(c) the relationship between mental health and the criminal justice system;(d) inequalities of mental health care provision regarding protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010; (e) the use and effectiveness of detention measures under this Act, including but not limited to Community Treatment Orders, for the purposes of therapeutic benefit outlined in section 1(2B);(f) challenges surrounding stigma of mental health conditions;(g) the accessibility of advice and support to mental health service users, their families and carers on their legal rights;(h) other issues deemed appropriate by the Mental Health Commissioner.(4) In fulfilling their duties under subsection (1), the Mental Health Commissioner may review, and monitor the operation of, arrangements falling within subsection (1), (2) and (3) for the purpose of ascertaining whether, and to what extent, the arrangements are effective in promoting the principles in section 118(2B) of this Act.142E Appointment and tenure of officeThe Secretary of State may make regulations which make provision as to—(a) the appointment of the Mental Health Commissioner (including any conditions to be fulfilled for appointment);(b) the filling of vacancies in the office of Commissioner;(c) the tenure of office of the Mental Health Commissioner, including the circumstances in which they cease to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office.142F Remuneration of roleThe Secretary of State may—(a) pay the Commissioner such remuneration and allowances, and(b) pay, or make provision for the payment of, such pension or gratuities to or in respect of them, as may be provided for under the terms of their appointment.142G Appointment of staff(1) The Commissioner may appoint any staff they consider necessary for assisting in the exercise of their functions, one of whom must be Deputy Commissioner.(2) During any vacancy in the office of Commissioner or at any time when the Commissioner is for any reason unable to act, the Deputy Commissioner may exercise their functions (and any property or rights vested in the Commissioner may accordingly be dealt with by the deputy as if vested in them).(3) Any member of the Commissioner's staff may, so far as authorised by them, exercise any of their functions.(4) The duties of the Deputy Commissioner must be determined by the Commissioner.(5) Regulations may provide for the Commissioner to make periodic or other reports to the Secretary of State relating to the exercise of their functions and may require the reports to be published in the manner required by the regulations.142H Examination of cases(1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make provision for the examination by the Mental Health Commissioner of the cases of those who are detained under this Act receiving treatment by authorised mental health care providers.(2) The regulations may include provision about—(a) the types of case which may be examined; (b) the circumstances in which an examination may be made;(c) the procedure for conducting an examination, including provision about the representation of parties;(d) the publication of reports following an examination.(3) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, provide for the Office of the Mental Health Commissioner to access and examine relevant data on mental health treatment provision held by NHS England and any other authorities the Secretary of State considers appropriate.(4) In cases under subsection (3), reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that data provided to the Office of the Mental Health Commissioner is anonymised.(5) Regulations may, for the purposes of enabling the Mental Health Commissioner to examine or determine whether any recommendation made in a report following an examination has been complied with, make provision for—(a) requiring persons to provide the Mental Health Commissioner with information, or(b) requiring persons who hold or are accountable for information to provide the Mental Health Commissioner with explanations or other assistance, for the purpose of an examination or for the purposes of determining whether any recommendation made in a report following an examination has been complied with.(6) For the purposes mentioned in subsection (3), the Mental Health Commissioner has the same powers as the High Court in respect of—(a) the attendance and examination of witnesses (including the administration of oaths and affirmations and the examination of witnesses abroad), and(b) the provision of information.(7) No person may be compelled for the purposes mentioned in subsection (5) to give any evidence or provide any information which they could not be compelled to give or provide in civil proceedings before the High Court.(8) The regulations may make provision for the payment by the Mental Health Commissioner of sums in respect of expenses or allowances to persons who attend or provide information for the purposes mentioned in subsection (5).142I General powers(1) Subject to any directions given by the Secretary of State, the Commissioner may do anything which appears to them to be necessary or expedient for the purpose of, or in connection with, the exercise of their functions.(2) This may include—(a) collaborating with health services, public authorities, charitable organisations, and other entities deemed necessary by the Mental Health Commissioner that are responsible for the provision of mental health care across the United Kingdom, including, but not limited to NHS bodies, the Care Quality Commission, and the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman;(b) making recommendations to the Secretary of State regarding treatment and detention provisions contained in this Act;(c) ensuring that authorities and public bodies with responsibilities for enforcement under the Mental Health Act 1983 have the necessary capacity and resources to undertake duties; (d) promoting mental health wellbeing;(e) ensuring access to treatment;(f) safeguarding the rights and welfare of patients;(g) other duties deemed to be necessary by the Secretary of State.142J Accounts(1) The Mental Health Commissioner must keep accounts in such form as the Secretary of State may determine.(2) The Mental Health Commissioner must prepare annual accounts in respect of each financial year in such form as the Secretary of State may determine.(3) The Mental Health Commissioner must provide copies of the annual accounts to the Secretary of State and the Comptroller and Auditor General within such period after the end of the financial year to which the accounts relate as the Secretary of State may determine.(4) The Comptroller and Auditor General must examine, certify, and report on the annual accounts and must lay copies of the accounts and of their report before Parliament.(5) In this paragraph “financial year”, in relation to the Mental Health Commissioner, means—(a) the period beginning with the date on which the Mental Health Commissioner is established and ending with the next 31st March following that date, and(b) each successive period of twelve months ending with 31st March.142K Regulations(1) Regulations under section 142E or 142H are to be made by statutory instrument.(2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under section 142E or 142H may not be made unless a draft of the instrument containing them has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.””

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I am sorry, it is me again. My Amendment 131 would establish a mental health commissioner for England as a new statutory office within government. I am quite conscious that it is a rather long and detailed amendment, but to my mind that reflects the importance of it to the successful implementation of the overall Act and the pivotal role that a commissioner would play. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, and to the noble Baronesses, Lady Murphy and Lady Bennett, for adding their names to my amendment, which gives a sense of strong cross-party support.

The Joint Committee recommended the creation of a statutory mental health commissioner to help drive the ongoing process of system reform and ensure accountability for implementation—I always felt that that was one of its seminal recommendations. I believe a mental health commissioner would provide sustained leadership for mental health, complementary to the existing roles and structures that we have, as well as monitoring the effective implementation of the Act. The commissioner would operate inside government and in the wider public sphere, giving the role real teeth.

Yes, the commissioner would have influence within government and the NHS, but they would also have the freedom to speak out when they considered it necessary to lead public debate, challenge stigma and break down boundaries and taboos. They could help galvanise action across departments and systems to improve population mental health and ensure that people living with mental illness are treated fairly and equitably in every sphere of life. In short, the commissioner could bring about a much-needed transformation in our mental health services. By establishing the role in statute, we would ensure that mental health would no longer be a topic that waxed and waned in its profile and importance within government and was reliant on either short-term interest or sometimes very hard-won attention.

Reflecting on the very important debate we had on reducing racial inequalities, I would consider that both assessing and taking action on inequalities in mental health would also be a critical role for the commissioner. Such a commissioner would be well placed to take responsibility for the oversight of a new responsible person role for addressing and reporting on racial disparities in mental health units at local level, as we discussed earlier in the debate on my Amendment 133.

We have an excellent example and model to follow in the way the Children’s Commissioner operates. From my extensive work on children’s issues over the years, I know how effective and influential that role has been, particularly during a period when there has been a change of Government. It has genuinely shifted the dial. I get the fact that it may not always feel 100% comfortable for the Government of the day, but they should embrace and welcome the additional scrutiny, ideas and recommendations that are based on engaging directly with people with lived experiences about their concerns.

That is certainly how it is happened with the Children’s Commissioner, who I think has done excellent work on children’s mental health. I know that it has proved to be empowering for children and young people to feel that their voice is being heard at the top table. I want that same opportunity to be in place for people with mental illness. It has the potential to make this Act a truly ground-breaking piece of social reform.

Mental health commissioners already exist in a number of international jurisdictions, including Scotland, Ireland, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. There is some helpful research from the Centre for Mental Health that shows the value of such roles in other countries.

I feel I can already anticipate the Minister’s response. At Second Reading, the Minister said the commissioner might duplicate the work of the Care Quality Commission. I do not think that is the case, as their roles would be complementary, as the Children’s Commissioner complements the work of Ofsted. The functions of the two are clearly different: they have different powers and responsibilities that between them provide extra benefit to the public that could not be achieved by one of them alone. Both have the powers of entry to inspect services that work with children, but their roles and the outcomes they seek to provide are very different. The Children’s Commissioner has a wide advocacy role across the whole of government, as well as civil society more broadly, so they can act in a way that Ofsted cannot possibly do.

So I very much hope that the Minister will be willing to discuss this with me when we meet later this week and, indeed, with other noble Lords who have expressed support, to discuss how we can really make this fly. I beg to move.

[Lord Bradley (Lab)]

My Lords, I strongly support Amendment 131, to which, as my noble friend Lady Tyler has stated, I have added my name. I can be brief because of the eloquence and comprehensive nature with which she introduced the amendment.

First, to note my registered interests, as this is probably the last day of Committee, the establishment of a mental health commissioner was recommended by the Joint scrutiny Committee of which I was a member. So it was a great disappointment that the Government did not include it in the Bill.

As I said at Second Reading, the mental health commissioner should be a voice at national level, promoting the interests of those who are detained and who are likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act, together with the interests of their families and carers, raising awareness of their needs and challenging stigma and stereotypes. Crucially, the commissioner should be at the forefront of tracking and scrutinising the implementation of these reforms.

There is widespread support for the establishment of the commissioner, both inside and outside Parliament and from statutory, non-statutory and charitable organisations. For example, the Centre for Mental Health, for which I am an ambassador, has stated:

“A Mental Health Commissioner … would offer sustained leadership for mental health—complementary to existing roles and structures in government. They would operate both within the machinery of state and in the media and wider public sphere. They would have influence within government and the NHS, but with the freedom to speak out when necessary: to lead public debate, challenge stigma, and break boundaries and taboos”.


I totally agree with this view. However, in reply to this proposal at Second Reading, supported by many noble Lords, the Minister pushed back on it stating that there are concerns that

“the proposed mental health commissioner’s function would be potentially largely duplicative of existing bodies and functions, and nobody wants to risk diluting accountability or causing confusion”.

The Minister went on to say:

“As noble Lords will know, Dr Penny Dash has been asked by the Secretary of State to assess if the current range and combination of organisations within the healthcare regulation landscape is effective and to make recommendations of what might be needed, and I think it is important that we await her recommendations”.—[Official Report, 25/11/24; col. 584.]


The key word here, I think, is “regulation”, and I do not agree with this view.

Since Second Reading, I have looked at the terms of reference of commissioners and regulators in various areas of public policy, and I believe that these roles are quite distinct. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler: the role of the Children’s Commissioner and the separate role of the education regulator Ofsted are a good comparison. I do not think these two roles dilute accountability or cause confusion. Further, I cannot remember if it has ever been suggested that these roles should be amalgamated or that the Children’s Commissioner should be abolished. In fact, I believe that there is widespread support, particularly from the public, for the invaluable independent work undertaken by a Children’s Commissioner.

I also think the Minister herself has made a very persuasive case for a mental health commissioner in her many constructive responses to the amendments already debated, especially today. My noble friend has noted, among other things: the complexity of the legislation and its interrelationship with the Mental Capacity Act 2005, the need for significant investment in community services, the development of a skilled and complex workforce, and the number of years it will take to implement all the provisions of the Bill. This will need rigorous, robust and consistent oversight of implementation and wider health policy and service developments over the next decade and beyond.

The establishment of a mental health commissioner will ensure transparency and accountability and introduce a real force for good for the development and delivery of high-quality mental health services across the country. I hope the Minister will now agree and support this amendment.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for tabling Amendment 131, supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Murphy, and my noble friend Lord Bradley. As noble Lords are aware, I understand the intent behind the amendment. We have carefully considered the proposed functions of the commissioner that it outlines, and we recognise that improvements are needed to ensure that the system works effectively. But as noble Lords are aware, we do not feel that a new body is the answer. As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, said, it may only duplicate existing functions, rather than providing the clarity and leadership that I know everyone is seeking. I was particularly interested to hear the noble Lord give his reflections on the opinions of the previous Government about a proposed mental health commissioner.

Overseeing implementation of the reforms is the role of the Department of Health and Social Care, working with NHS England, the Ministry of Justice and the CQC in England, and, in Wales, with the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales.

On the interaction between this legislation and the Mental Capacity Act, we are committed to keeping that under close review to minimise challenges potentially faced by front-line professionals.

The annual report by the commissioner proposed in the amendment would overlap with the CQC’s annual Monitoring the Mental Health Act report. The CQC’s annual statutory reporting reflects the views of thousands of patients interviewed each year by the CQC. Many of the issues that the commissioner would assess and report on, such as the accessibility of advice and the quality of services, are already reported on by the CQC.

It is proposed that the commissioner would examine cases of people detained under the Act. This clearly overlaps with the functions of the CQC and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, which have a statutory duty to monitor and, where appropriate, to investigate. The Act provides the regulator with similar powers—for example, to gather information to support it in exercising these powers.

The Health Services Safety Investigations Body is responsible for conducting independent investigations into patient safety concerns across England to identify ways to improve mental health care and patient safety. It has just concluded a series of investigations into in-patient mental health care and is currently undertaking further work.

With regard to the proposed commissioner’s general powers, it is the Government’s role, with NHS England, to ensure sufficient capacity and resources in the system. It is the role of NHSE’s national director for mental health and the medical director for mental health and neurodiversity, newly established last year, to oversee and take forward improvements to mental health services. It is already the role of the regulator to safeguard the rights and welfare of patients, while other organisations independently investigate complaints.

Minimising duplication with these organisations and functions would require significant remodelling of the system, interrupting ongoing programmes and responsibilities that are important to the smooth delivery of the Mental Health Act reforms. Having said that, we recognise that improvements need to be made in the quality of care and the patient safety landscape. We are committed to that goal and intend to overhaul the healthcare system to make it better for all patients.

The CQC has already begun to implement the recommendations made by Dr Penny Dash and Professor Sir Mike Richards: a new chief inspector for mental health will use their independent voice to amplify and respond to the experiences and outcomes of people who use services. Implementation of Mental Health Act reform will be at the top of their “to do” list.

On the wider landscape, we expect to hear soon from Dr Dash who, as noble Lords have said, is reviewing the broad range of organisations that impact on quality and safety, many of which I have mentioned today, and is due to report on whether greater value could be achieved through a different delivery model.

Reference was made in the debate to the role of the Children’s Commissioner, which the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, particularly focused on. I want to place on record my gratitude to the Children’s Commissioner for the work done on children’s mental health. But, in reflecting on the debate earlier, I should say that the Children’s Commissioner is operating in a rather difference landscape. The proposed mental health commissioner would have a much narrower purview that, for the reasons I have stated, risks overlapping with existing organisations in a way that the Children’s Commissioner does not. I understand why the Children’s Commissioner is being looked to, but I cannot draw that direct comparison myself.

The challenges we have heard about in this debate have highlighted areas we need further to focus our efforts on. I look forward to speaking to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, about this topic this week, and I am sure that I will have further conversations about it. For all these reasons, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw Amendment 131.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and thank other noble Lords for their support: in some cases, strong support; in others, what I can only describe as support up to a point—if you know what I mean.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, was right to say that we on these Benches feel passionate about this. We think it has the potential to make a real difference and transform not just mental health services at the crisis end—the detention end—but how the whole mental health landscape works.

I would just say in response that I am slightly surprised that the Government consider the current arrangements to be satisfactory. The Joint Committee clearly did not. It spent an awful lot of time looking into this and made a recommendation for a reason.

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Moved by

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

134: After Clause 50, insert the following new Clause—
“General duty to secure sufficient resources for services in the community(1) It is the general duty of integrated care boards to ensure, insofar as is reasonably practical, that services in the community responsible for delivering care, treatment, or detention provisions under the Mental Health Act 1983 and this Act have the necessary resources, including financial support, to meet service demands.(2) Additional forms of resource may be determined by integrated care boards in consultation with relevant local authorities or health care service providers and may include—(a) sufficient numbers of trained medical professionals;(b) purpose-built facilities for patient care;(c) community services responsible for out-patient care.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment places a general duty on integrated care boards to ensure that services in the community have the necessary level of resource to meet demand on services to ensure that the provisions of the bill function as intended.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, yes, I am afraid it is me again. I thank my noble friend Lord Scriven and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for adding their names to Amendment 134. Of course, we have already acknowledged in many of our debates that the provisions in the Bill rely heavily on strong and effective community provision being in place, but there are real concerns within the sector that community provision is not currently sufficient to support the changes set out in the Bill. In my view, the new duties placed on local authorities and integrated care boards to ensure an “adequate supply” of community support lack teeth, and no real accountability measures have been put in place as yet to ensure that this duty is fulfilled. My Amendment 134 would place a general duty on integrated care boards to ensure that services in the community had the necessary level of resource to meet demand for services.

This amendment is closely related to the amendments in group 1, already debated—indeed, I am not quite sure why this one was not included in that group; groups remain a bit of a mystery to me. It is worth noting that the Equality and Human Rights Commission recommended in its response to the Joint Committee that the Government should, in line with the recommendation of the independent review, ensure that there was

“sufficient, high-quality, appropriate, community-based mental health services and pathways to meet the needs of all adults, children and young people”.

It stressed:

“These should include therapeutic alternatives to detention, preventative support to minimise the risk of crisis, and wider community services that enable good mental health and recovery”—


something I will be returning to in a later amendment. Is the Minister able to say what consideration the Government have given to that specific recommendation?

The EHRC also felt that the Bill needed strengthening

“to ensure sufficient community-based services in practice in order to end inappropriate detentions. This was highlighted in the most recent annual review of the Mental Health Act by the CQC, which stated: ‘While we support the government’s objective to reduce hospital admissions for people with a learning disability and autistic people under the MHA, this can only be achieved by an increase in community support, including trained staff, and high-quality alternatives to admission’”.

I want to finish by focusing on the workforce aspect. Following the previous Government’s 2021 White Paper, the Royal College of Psychiatrists commissioned an independent assessment of the impact of the proposed changes on the psychiatric workforce to better understand how many additional psychiatrists would be required to deliver the reforms in the proposed year of implementation and, indeed, 10 years later. Based on that White Paper, the research found that by 2023-24, an additional 333 full-time equivalent psychiatrists would be needed in England, costing £40 million per year, and that by 2033-34, a further 161 full-time equivalent psychiatrists would be needed. While these figures may not necessarily accurately reflect the exact number of psychiatrists needed to deliver the reforms we are talking about in the Bill, or the current timelines for the legislation, they demonstrate clearly the impact on a workforce which is already understaffed and carrying high vacancy levels.

Back in March 2016, NHS England set a target to have an additional 1,040 consultant psychiatrists in post in England by March 2024. Based on these targets, as of July last year there was a shortfall of some 770 psychiatrists across England. That is a big shortfall. The impact assessment, while absolutely voluminous, is—as far as I can see—silent on where these people are going to come from. However, it estimates costs of around £99 million for alternative mental health care for people no longer admitted to hospital. It also estimates some £5.5 billion of savings from fewer overall admissions and fewer detentions for people with a learning disability or autism. It goes on to say that the benefits

“should not be understood as cashable”.

Can the Minister say what specific mechanism will be used for diverting more money into community services?

Psychiatrists are absolutely critical but are only one part of the wider mental health workforce, which also includes mental health nurses, clinical psychologists, mental health social workers, occupational therapists and others. Can the Minister say whether detailed plans to grow the overall mental health workforce will be contained in the 10-year plan and the upcoming spending review?

I am conscious that I have asked quite a lot of detailed questions, so if the Minister would prefer to write to me with her response, that is fine. I add that I am sympathetic to the aims of Amendment 157 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to again follow the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, and offer support to her. I will be very brief because there has already been a comprehensive introduction.

It is useful to draw a comparison to see how we might look at some kind of composite as we get towards Report. This amendment places a general duty on integrated care boards to ensure that services in the community have the adequate levels of resource, which is why I signed it, but who gives the resources to the integrated care boards? Ultimately, it is the Government.

My earlier amendment sought a regular process of reports and parliamentary oversight, and I suggest that we need both. This is a good, strong amendment to give the duty to the ICBs. But we also need to see that there is the oversight and that ICBs have the capacity to support the duty they are being given.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on both these amendments. I turn first to Amendment 134 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and spoken to by my noble friend Lady Ramsey and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, both of whom shared real-life examples to illustrate what is being spoken about here.

This duty to consider mental health needs, as well as the needs of those with a learning disability and autistic people, in the community as well as in hospital is already covered by ICBs under the National Health Service Act 2006, as amended by the Health and Care Act 2022. An ICB must arrange for the provision of services to such extent as it considers necessary to meet the reasonable requirements of the people for whom it has responsibility.

ICBs and their mental health trusts are also required to prepare a joint forward plan that describes how the ICB will arrange for NHS services to meet its population’s physical and mental health needs, and the needs of those with a learning disability and autistic people.

On the general point with regard to the long-term workforce plan, which the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, mentioned, it will report in a few months’ time, later in the year, which I hope will give a lot more substance to answer the kinds of questions that are being raised. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, asked about incremental requirements for psychiatrists on a year-by-year and whole-time-equivalent basis. I say to the noble Lord that the impact assessment sets out our best estimate at this point, but the plans need to be seen as somewhat iterative. With regard to further specific questions, including those raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, I will indeed be glad to write.

Turning now to Amendment 157, in the name of my noble friend Lord Davies and spoken to by the noble Lady Baroness, Lady Bennett, as we have already discussed in relation to Amendment 134, there is already a duty on ICBs to provide sufficient hospital and community services under the National Health Service Act 2006. Furthermore, chapter 16 of the Mental Health Act code of practice already states that local authorities, NHS commissioners, hospitals, police forces and ambulance services should have local partnership arrangements in place to deal with people experiencing crises in mental health.

We accept that there are issues with bed capacity and patient flow, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I will resist using the term “patient pathway”, but I certainly agree that they are part of what happens to a patient and they are indeed linked—whatever form of words we choose to use. That is why, in the recent NHS planning guidance, we have tasked local systems with reducing the length of stay in mental health wards and have committed £26 million to improve mental health crisis care, with a further £75 million to reduce inappropriate out-of-area placement. All this is already in train and does not suggest a requirement for primary legislation. So, for these reasons, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister yet again for her response. We have had a number of discussions so far this afternoon in this broad area, and indeed, as was alluded to, on previous Committee days. They are interrelated, so it is sometimes hard to separate the individual groups. I think at the very heart of all of our discussions is concern about two things: first, how we ensure that there is sufficient provision within the community to provide the sorts of services we all hope to see and which are fundamental to the successful implementation of the Bill; and, secondly—I think this came out very clearly—the need for really good workforce planning and understanding it on a year-by-year basis.

I was encouraged to hear from the Minister that we can expect to see the long-term workforce plan—I think she said—in a few months’ time. I very much look forward to that. I hope it includes some of the workforce planning and modelling of community provision that my noble friend Lady Barker referred to, and I hope, above all things, that it is slightly clearer than the impact assessment, which, I have to be honest—it may just be me; it might have been late at night when I was looking at it—I found somewhat on the opaque side. I am really hoping for greater clarity when we see the long-term workforce plan. This issue is not going to go away. In what form we return to it at Report, I am not quite sure, but, for the moment, on that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 134 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Neuberger (CB)]

My Lords, I should have declared interests before, as chair of University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and of Whittington Health NHS Trust. I also was a vice-chair of the review of the Mental Health Act, which reported in 2018 and is relevant, because I very strongly support this amendment to which I have added my name. It is something that the review did not address. We should have done. We did not have it raised sufficiently strongly with us by service users to whom we talked a great deal. That was an omission. It is very important that we do this. I hope that the Minister can say that this will be included in the legislation in its final form, and that she will accept this amendment or something redrafted along its lines.

I am very grateful to the wonderful Money and Mental Health Policy Institute—I pay full tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Bradley—for its briefings. When, in 2022, it conducted a piece of research looking at the finances of 200 people who had received care from secondary mental health services, it found that, quite unsurprisingly, a majority of the people who responded had experienced an income drop while receiving support from mental health services and struggled to pay their mortgages or for food, or missed a payment on energy, rent, council tax, or whatever it might be. This was a problem that kept coming back and they kept talking about. But the majority also expressed real support for the idea of making plans, ahead of time, for how to deal with their finances and how this would all be managed when they were unwell, as many people have episodic periods of being unwell. It seems to me that that piece of work is a cast-iron argument in favour of using breathing space to tackle these financial issues. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to support this.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to add my support to this amendment. I have been very pleased to add my support to all three of the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has tabled in this area of financial inclusion. I remind your Lordships’ Committee of my interests as a member of the Financial Inclusion Commission and president of the Money Advice Trust.

I have always been a strong supporter of breathing space. It is a really important debt respite scheme, which has made a huge difference to the lives of many people struggling with debt. The idea of automatically offering this to people who are detained under the Act is absolutely the right thing to do. There is just so much evidence about the links between people spiralling into mental health crises and then into financial crises, which makes their recovery so much harder. I was pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Davies, talk about the sort of debt advice which might also then be available.

Everything that needs to be said about this amendment has already been said, so I underline my support for it and, like other noble Lords, very much hope we might hear some encouraging words from the Minister.

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That is important for parents. Although they do not have a right to the additional resources, which can even include accommodation under Section 17 of the Children Act, it does give the local authority a power and enhance the parents’ right to ask for additional support. So could the Minister clarify, with Amendment 160, what the position is here? Is this automatic or is there a discretion? Can she outline whether those amendments to the statutory code of practice, Working Together to Safeguard Children, have actually been made?

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to add my support to Amendments 143 and 144, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I added my name to these amendments. I am also very sympathetic to the other amendments in this group, both Amendment 142 and the two amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has just spoken to.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, introduced these amendments in an incredibly compelling, moving and, indeed, comprehensive way. In a way, I do not feel that there is very much for me to add. I did have to think quite hard—there was part of me that wanted an outright prohibition, but I recognise the state of the mental health services we have at the moment. Unfortunately, there are times—hopefully, in only a few desperate cases, as the noble Earl said, and for a very short time—when these measures have to be taken. As undesirable as I think it is, we need to recognise the world in which we live.

I would also like to underline—because most of the debate so far has been about children in adult wards, which is clearly hugely undesirable—the importance of considering children placed out of area. That is, so often, when there is no suitable or available bed. It goes back to the issues raised by my noble friend Lady Parminter about eating disorder beds. It is hugely detrimental for children and young people to be placed out of area, away from their support networks—their family and friends who they so desperately need as part of their recovery at a time of real crisis—so I want to underline the importance of that, as well as the importance of real transparency and rigour when a child is, very unfortunately, placed in an adult ward, hopefully for a very short period of time.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I come to this totally uneducated, so what I have heard this afternoon I have found very shocking. I agree with what has been said already, and I was particularly shocked by the comments from the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I would like to underline what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has said about the fact that these are children. They may be 17 and a half but, under the Children Act 1989, they remain children and, across all legislation dealing with children, “best interests” comes in.

From what I have heard, it sounds as though adult wards do not understand that these are genuinely children and have to be treated separately but, much more importantly, that their best interests are not necessarily, or almost certainly not, the same as those of adults. I wonder whether it should not be permeating all establishments, private and public, that, if they have to take into an adult setting those under 18, they have to deal with them in a special way. I remain horrified by what was said and I hope that the Minister, who is a particularly sympathetic person, will pick this up and take it across the board.