Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I support Motion B1 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. I will be brief and not repeat what others have said. However, it is worth noting that in the Statement on the Ockenden report, the Secretary of State for Health said:

“I am also taking forward the specific recommendations that Donna Ockenden has asked me to. The first is on the need to further expand the maternity workforce.”—[Official Report, Commons, 30/3/22; col. 819.]


That phrase could be repeated for every part of the NHS and social care workforce, so I believe that has changed the situation since the other House debated this issue.

The public are asking what the national insurance levy is for if not to increase the number of professional staff in training. We are turning away people who want to be paramedics and nurses, as my noble friend has just said, who want to train locally. Of course we should undertake ethical overseas recruitment as well, but we need both. I firmly believe that this amendment needs the full support of this House.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and to ensure that full support for Motion B1 has been presented from all round your Lordships’ House, including the Government Benches. The Green group also supports Motion C1 particularly strongly, and Motions D1, F1, G1 and L1, but I will speak briefly only to Motion B1 because it is so crucial.

In introducing this group the Minister spoke, as the Government often do, about the record numbers of staff in the NHS. I do not think anyone has yet mentioned the NHS staff survey conducted between September and November. Just 21% of nurses and midwives thought that there were enough staff in their unit to do their job properly and provide an adequate standard of care; almost 80% thought there were not enough. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, referred to the Ockenden report: that helped to highlight that, despite the fact that the Government have been trying to recruit more midwives, in the last year the number of midwives has actually gone down.

We really have to ask ourselves why the Government are so opposed to this amendment when there is such strong support for it around this House and among all the key bodies around the country. It may be that the Government have an ideological objection to the word “planning”, or that the Minister does, but this is about the future of our NHS and all the evidence says that this is an essential amendment. Surely the Government are not going to let ideology stand in the way of the future of our NHS.

I finish by commenting on the typically wonderful introduction to this group from the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, who referred to the strong civil society campaign. The hashtag for it on Twitter is #StrengthInNumbers, and that says so much. We need the numbers and the facts so that we can get the numbers of staff in the NHS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I made my substantive points when we debated this on Report, so I will not be tedious in repeating all those arguments about the nature of abortion, why I feel there should be a more thorough consideration of the way the law works in Britain today and why there have been 9 million abortions—one every three minutes. That does not suggest a lack of access to abortion in this country. But I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, said to us about the lack of safeguards in the amendment that we passed, against the wishes of Health Ministers, during the tail end of the Report stage consideration of the Bill.

If the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, was right that there had been substantive discussion, I would feel easier about this, but she will agree that there was no discussion of this at Second Reading or in Committee here, and there was no discussion of it in another place. When this was voted on in another place, there was a relatively close majority at the end of a very short debate—215 votes to 188. This demonstrates that this question is not settled.

If one winds back the clock to 1967, only 29 Members of the House of Commons voted against the Abortion Act 1967. That demonstrates that not only is this not settled but there are deep concerns about the way that this public policy has been enacted. That is why I pleaded, on Report, that rather than making policy on the hoof, it would be far better if—despite our differences of opinion, some of them fundamental, on the substantive issue—at some point, there is a review of the legislation, in which we can at least talk to one another, in a civilised way, about the best approach.

That brings me to this amendment, which was introduced with such sensitivity and compassion by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and which deals with safeguarding issues. I will not repeat the quotation that was just given to us by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, but it comes from a royal college. The royal colleges may be divided about this too—I do not dispute that—but that is exactly the sort of thing that should be laid before a commission of inquiry or a Select Committee of this House to examine the workings of the legislation.

We have heard the quotation about the safeguarding, well-being and physical needs of children from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, but I was also struck by what a designated doctor for child safeguarding said in a briefing which many of us have been sent by the National Network of Designated Healthcare Professionals for Safeguarding Children. Dr Helen Daley says:

“The considered expert position of the NNDHP is that all children (i.e. those under 18) and looked after individuals under the age of 25, should be seen face-to-face when applying to take both sets of abortion pills at home so as to prevent coercion, child sexual exploitation and abuse, and so that clinical assessments can be made to check the risk of an inadvertent mid- or late-trimester abortion.”


I note what the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said about specific individual cases. I do not know about the individual cases, other than that one was cited, and one is enough. It struck me, as a parent and someone who has worked with children with special needs, some of whom had significant emotional problems, to think how it would be if, in a home abortion, someone was to abort a late-trimester baby and the children in that household saw what happened. I think that would remain with them for the rest of their lives and it could have a deeply distressing and traumatic effect on them. That is why we should listen to Dr Helen Daley when she says

“We have very real concerns about the harm”


that this amendment to the Bill

“(which would allow girls to take abortion pills at home without a prior face-to-face consultation for any early abortion) will do to children.”

There is one other point, which was not referred to in our early debates. There is evidence about the physical effects on women. For me, this is not a choice between the unborn child and the woman—both lives matter. One in 17 women, or 20 a day, who had taken at least one abortion pill at home in 2020 needed hospital treatment for side-effects. This evidence was provided through a freedom of information request by the previous global director of clinics development at Marie Stopes International. There are significant risks.

I plead with your Lordships: when we make laws on issues such as this, let us always be respectful of each other’s opinions, attitudes, beliefs and principles, and listen to each other carefully, which we are doing in this House tonight; bluntly, I think we are a very good example to others about how this debate should be conducted. When the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, talks about the risks of, for instance, sex-selection abortions, we must take that seriously, because there have been examples of it and we know to what it can lead; we have seen that in other jurisdictions and countries. When the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, tells us there could be risks to children over safeguarding, we must take that seriously. I promised to be brief and will now sit down.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly, having contributed quite significantly to the debate on Report. I support the Government’s amendment, which is not a position I find myself in very often. I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, who said this was not settled. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg—who has been such a leader, working on this issue in the House with great tenacity and determination to defend the well-being of patients—said, it has been settled in both Houses of Parliament and has been debated extensively.

The point the noble Lord, Lord Alton, just made about the sex-selection question was comprehensively answered. The dates do not work; we are talking about early medical abortion and you do not know by that stage. We have to come back to the evidence. We had an unintended experiment as a result of Covid, which showed us that telemedicine not only reduced the rate of abortion complication but increased the level of safeguarding disclosures. It is really important that we think about an equalities issue here. Access to telemedicine is medically preferable and results in more safeguarding disclosures. We do not want to deny that to young women where it is judged that it is medically appropriate.

I note that the National Network of Designated Healthcare Professionals for Safeguarding Children is working with the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists to develop standards. It says that this should not be subject to discrimination in the law, as the safeguarding standards and guidelines are adequate. If we think about this as an access issue, this minimises the risks of young people going to provision outside the healthcare system. This is a crucial equalities issue.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

3rd reading
Wednesday 23rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

From these Benches, I very briefly thank the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, the whole Bill team and all the officials who have worked with them for the way that they have listened—repeatedly listened—as we made our points over and again and as they sought sometimes to try to understand what we were trying to get across and why. I also thank everyone across the House, on all the Opposition Benches, the Cross Benches and the Government Benches, who have worked with us as Cross-Benchers in a very collaborative way and made their own offices available for background support to all of us.

I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton: this Bill leaves us better. It has been a genuine pleasure to work on it. Some of us have worked on previous Bills, and I have to say that this was a more enjoyable and rewarding experience because the dialogue involved a better interchange at many points.

We have made some points of great significance, one of which was over palliative care, which has been dear to my heart. Palliative care has come of age. I think the House will be pleased to know that, on Friday morning, the annual meeting of the Association for Palliative Medicine has a specific session dedicated to understanding the changes and what it now needs to do in the light of those. The word goes fast from here, and that is very welcome.

I hope that I have not forgotten anybody in my thanks, which are open and sincerely expressed.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly, with the Green group having made quite a large contribution—certainly in hours—to this Bill.

This House has improved the Bill, but I feel I need to say that I have received in the last few days a significant number of emails. They are not part of a co-ordinated campaign; they are cries from the heart, many from long-term NHS campaigners who I have known for a long while. I quote just one of these, which says that:

“The Bill is still not in the interests of the public or indeed of the NHS itself as a comprehensive, universal public service”.


That is an expression of feeling that I am hearing very strongly. I hope that the Minister will listen to that and understand that there are very grave concerns out there among the public about the direction of the NHS.

The improvements that we have at least delivered, as other noble Lords have said, should stay, but the Government really need to safeguard this universal public service.

Down Syndrome Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 18th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I must begin with a tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who works so hard for people with learning disabilities and other disabilities in your Lordships’ House, as I see in person very often, and I was privileged to see recently in a late-night—or possibly early-morning—stroll up Whitehall during the Health and Care Bill to get some more information one-to-one.

The right honourable Liam Fox—I note he is listening to our debate today—said of this Bill in the other place:

“it is about people who deserve the same ability to demand the best health, education and care as the rest of our society.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/11/21; col. 579]

Of course, nobody could disagree with that aim, but it is true for people with other chromosomal abnormalities, people with learning disabilities and many other people with special needs in our society. The fact is that our society is profoundly discriminatory. People are disabled by the barriers society puts in their way. Physical barriers, as we have just heard from powerful testimony from the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, are attitudinal barriers which are frequently still, sadly, awful.

There are 1.5 million people with learning disabilities in the UK and about one in 50 babies are born with a chromosomal abnormality. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has often drawn the House’s attention to, men with a learning disability have a life expectancy of 66 years—14 years below that of the general population —and females 67 years, which is 17 years below the general population, reflecting some of that discrimination that I referred to.

It was not my intention to speak on this Bill—your Lordships’ House may know that I have rather a large number of Bills on my plate—but I received large numbers of representations from people concerned about it, which is what led me to be in your Lordships’ House today. Some of those concerns reflect what the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, just said. When I looked into this, I was quite surprised that in a press release about the Bill, the Down’s Syndrome Association said that it had not been

“invited to be involved in the development”

of the legislation. That very much provoked me to think of the phrase that the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, just used: nothing about us without us. If the noble Baroness is going to table an amendment along those lines, I would certainly be interested in supporting it.

The first concern that families and groups of parents with children and adults who have Down’s syndrome have come to me about is that the Bill will have no substantive effect on the rights and lived experience of people with Down’s syndrome and their families because the duties in it are narrowly drawn; demand very little of public bodies; crucially, attract no new funding; and provide no meaningful mechanisms for enforcement or redress.

There is a really serious concern that the Bill implies that a diagnosis predicts how a person’s needs should be best met, rather than people’s personal, individual and unique needs, characters, gifts, talents and aspirations, and the idea that it is possible to generalise about a highly diverse group of people based directly on diagnosis alone. The families have said to me that they are concerned that this approach risks reinforcing rather than overcoming prejudice and discrimination, while undermining decades of progress in moving towards personalised support across the fields of education, health and social care.

I note—the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, addressed this in her introductory remarks—that it has been argued that the Bill offers a model for others to follow to address other conditions and people in other circumstances, but it is very hard to imagine that we could see a whole procession of Bills addressing people with different health needs and disabilities along this model. Surely it would be better to make sure that people’s needs as an individual, whatever diagnosis they might have, are addressed.

At this point, I should declare my position as vice-chair of the LGA and NALC. The crucial issue here, surely, is resources. I am aware that the Bill was put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, but there are questions I would like to put to the Minister if the Government are backing it. How do we know that it will have the intended impact? How will it be enforced? We talked about ensuring that there was full consultation on the guidance, but what role might Parliament play in producing the guidance? Crucially, without further resources, how could public bodies conceivably implement this new guidance?

I come to one final area of concern, looking at the discussion of the Bill in the public realm and the way it has been discussed in the press and online, about what people advocating for it or pinning their hopes on it believe it is designed to achieve, particularly around issues concerning maternal health and reproductive rights. The Bill, of course, very directly addresses the needs of people with Down’s syndrome, which legally applies only to people who have been born and therefore does not relate to the needs of pregnant women who may have received an antenatal diagnosis but do not themselves have Down’s syndrome. So I ask either the Minister or the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, to confirm that, in the Department of Health and Social Care, the intention of the Bill is not to plan to develop new guidance or amend any existing guidance concerning antenatal care and existing reproductive rights as a consequence—save as it may apply, of course, to the needs of women who have Down’s syndrome.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I was happy to add my name to this amendment to give it a bit of cross-House balance. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, I am an officer of the all-party parliamentary group on coronavirus. In the last two years, we have had a bellyful of coronavirus; we have heard ad nauseum about the problems and the tragedies that it has created and encompassed, and that is partly what leads to this amendment.

It is self-evident that the United Kingdom, and most of the rest of the world, was unprepared. Countries that had experienced SARS, particularly in south-east Asia, had a better idea of what they were getting into. Frankly, however, for most of us in the West, it was the blind leading the blind. Looking in the mirror today—and accepting our failings, and the unease that we in the developed world should surely feel for largely having prioritised looking after our own—is for me, certainly, distinctly uncomfortable.

The aim of Amendment 174 is very simple: equitable access to affordable health technologies for all. One of the biggest challenges is how to deal with the exclusive intellectual property rights that exist in the healthcare sector. Only 7% of people in low-income countries have been double vaccinated. Only an additional 14% have had one dose.

Noble Lords should remember where the variants have come from. The exception, of course, is alpha, for which global Britain is responsible, so that is something that we can be proud of. Beta came from South Africa, gamma from Brazil, delta from India, and omicron is truly global because it started in about 10 countries simultaneously. The two countries that went it alone, rather proudly, in developing their own vaccines—China and Russia—have produced manifestly inferior vaccines, which have not been subject to proper, clinical peer scrutiny.

I give two examples of the problem we face. First, Pfizer’s new antiviral treatment excludes most Latin American countries, and generic versions—unless Pfizer does something about relaxing its intellectual property—may not be available in those countries until after 2041. Secondly, Tocilizumab, an antiviral manufactured by Roche, which is based on UK government-funded research, is unable to be manufactured in countries with established production capacity because Roche is enforcing its patents in these countries. There is a global shortage of this particular treatment.

Tackling the complex world of healthcare intellectual property is not easy. In my past career as a headhunter, I worked with clients that were large, complex, well-funded, international pharmaceutical companies, so I know full well the level of intellect and resource that they put into their intellectual property defences. We must apply ourselves in a disciplined and determined way at an international level; this is a chance for Great Britain to prove that it is indeed global. As an aside, during Oral Questions this morning, some of us on the Cross Benches were playing a game where, every time somebody from the Government Front Bench mentioned global Britain, another notional £10 clinked into the pockets of the Cross-Bench Christmas drinks fund; this afternoon, we had a particularly fruitful Oral Questions. As a mantra, it is meaningless unless it has real content behind it.

We need to develop a rapid response plan for the next pandemic. We will demonstrate that we have intellectual and moral myopia if we fail to do it. In a nod to Amendment 170, which we debated earlier, we should not show that we are content to let the less-developed world suffer from what I would describe as unassisted dying. That is unacceptable.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to offer Green support for this amendment, which I would have signed had there been space.

The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, referred to today’s report that a watered-down version of the India-South Africa proposal for a TRIPS waiver looks likely to go through the WTO. I quote Max Lawson, co-chair of the People’s Vaccine Alliance:

“After almost 18 months of stalling and millions of deaths, the EU has climbed down and finally admitted that intellectual property rules and pharmaceutical monopolies are a barrier to vaccinating the world.”


Bouncing off the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Russell, I think that the Cross Benches might find an even larger drinks fund if they go for “world-leading” as the key phrase to identify. The comment from Mr Lawson shows that, collectively, the world has done very badly throughout the Covid pandemic and done very poorly by the global south. If the Government want to be world-leading, they could leap in right now and accept the noble Baroness’s amendment.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti, the noble Baronesses, Lady Lawrence and Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Russell, on supporting and promoting this amendment. Its explanatory statement says:

“In the event of a public health emergency of international concern, this new Clause requires the Secretary of State to support domestic and international knowledge-sharing, to combat the emergency.”


I cannot see why anybody would object to that.

I would like to say one more thing. The former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, has led this country on how one should respond to a global pandemic with his work at the World Health Organization on the importance of sharing knowledge, vaccines and technology across the world. This amendment is about the pandemic that is coming down the track as well as the one we are dealing with at the moment, so we on these Benches certainly support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, whose contribution reflects her extensive wisdom and knowledge in this area. I just want to say that I commend my noble friend Lady Sugg for her leadership in bringing forward the amendment. I, too, will listen to what the Minister says in reply this evening, but instinctively I support what my noble friend is seeking to achieve.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support Amendment 183. My background in this goes back to March 2020, in those difficult, scary, early days of the pandemic, when your Lordships’ House was operating on a skeleton crew. That led to me, as very new Peer, moving the amendment to the coronavirus regulations that would have allowed for telemedicine. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who I note has signed this amendment, for supporting me through that process, because I had little idea about what I was doing in terms of your Lordships’ House. It is worth noting that we were doing that in part in acknowledgement that women would not otherwise have access to the necessary medical service of an abortion, but also because we knew that NHS resources were going to be enormously stretched. We are still in a situation where NHS resources are enormously stretched. Earlier we were talking about the Ukrainian refugees whom we will be welcoming here and the medical services that they will need.

Of course, we want to say that, in this area of medicine, we should be putting resources into all the NHS services that women need, but the evidence is overwhelming that telemedicine abortion is giving women a better service. I pick up the point made by the right reverend Prelate that there may be safeguarding concerns. There is evidence, particularly from MSI Reproductive Choices, reporting a major uplift in safeguarding disclosures, including from survivors of domestic and sexual abuse, with telemedicine.

On the medical side of this is a simple clear fact: since telemedicine has been introduced, complication rates from abortion have fallen by 20%. You do not have to listen to just me on this; permanent provision of abortion telemedicine is supported by eight royal colleges and medical societies, including the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives and the British Medical Association. I also point out that abortion telemedicine is going to continue in Wales and Scotland, based on the evidence. The arguments are simply overwhelming: this is the best option.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I was not going to speak on this, but I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and that encouraged me to stand up and speak, together with other noble Lords who are a bit cautious about all of this. I was a vicar of an inner-city parish in which there were a lot of teenage pregnancies, and those who made them pregnant tried to force them to have abortions. The only person they felt they could tell was the vicar, not their parents, because their parents would hit the roof. Some of them would get corporal punishment as a result. I found myself in difficult, tricky situations, but I was fortunate, because in the congregation we had midwives and doctors. I simply said, “I listened to what you are saying to me, but I am not medically qualified to give any advice. We have experienced people who can give you that advice.” I was grateful that those midwives and doctors were able to accompany these teenage girls and help them come to a more sensible position.

I speak as somebody who is not against abortion, because the welfare of the mother and her rights need to be protected, but I am concerned about a measure that was brought in because of extreme circumstances. The Government were right, during the pandemic, to allow the kind of arrangement that was set up. But I am with the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, that we should not change overnight a tradition and circumstances that were accepted by the majority who see the right of abortion. We should not say that we will now go down this almost administrative route as the norm. Most people would be very concerned if we were going down a particular route.

I strongly believe, because of my experience of those teenage pregnancies in Tulse Hill, that the role of doctors, specialists in counselling and others is absolutely vital. You cannot do away with that because it is easier at the end of a telephone. You may not believe it, but young boys who had made girls pregnant would put pressure on them to have these abortions, for no reason other than that they wanted to move on to the next young girl. I still find that unacceptable.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I warmly but very briefly support these proposed innovations in fortifying and enhancing health, not least in their application to the treatment of dementia. Will the Minister consider the work of Arts 4 Dementia, whose aim is empowerment through artistic stimulation, and which promotes social prescribing of arts and well-being activity at the onset of dementia, including through its seminal report, A.R.T.S. for Brain Health?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to offer support from the Green group for both these amendments. In Committee, I spoke extensively on the issues around creative health, and I will not repeat any of that. I just note that, looking at the Government’s response, I get no sense that they have got the point that this is not an additional “nice to have”—something that is done after you have done the medical stuff—this has to be a core part of allowing people to get well again, and keeping people well.

On Amendment 184ZB, it is interesting that the Covid pandemic has seen a really large increase in private medical provision, such as testing on our high streets, et cetera. Now that they are there, those businesses will be looking out for different procedures to keep them going, and it is really important that we have full transparency about the advice that people are getting at those kinds of places.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I say very briefly that I hope the Government will look favourably on this amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and others. I hope that they will build into a review an assessment of the cost efficacy because as well as all the positive aspects that we have heard about, we must remember that, if you can decrease medication prescribing, you will decrease not only costs but adverse side-effects, which also have a cost. All these initiatives tackle the problem of loneliness, isolation and not having contact with other people—people who may be able to empathise with the way that you feel about your condition when you are undertaking a common activity with them. That can become particularly important for the psychological well-being of patients as well as their physical improvement.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness may wish not to be churlish, but I would regret it if I could not be a little churlish. I declare an interest as chairman of the Woodland Trust and vice-president of a range of environmental and conservation organisations. I thank the Government and the Minister for the assurances given. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham, for his shuttle diplomacy between the churlish and the less churlish in achieving these very welcome amendments.

I will press the Minister a little further on what she said, just to make sure that we are completely clear. The guidance will be crucial, and I am glad to see that it will be issued initially within 12 months of Royal Assent. I just want the Minister to clarify that the guidance on procurement will cover the need not just to reduce emissions through the NHS supply chain but to secure the other environmental targets, such as those set by the Environment Act. The preamble says that, but I want to make sure there is clarity in Hansard that the guidance will ask for procurement to do not just the climate change job but the other job.

Although the duties on the trusts, ICBs and NHS England include climate change, adaptation to climate change and improving the natural environment, most of the examples the Minister gave revert back just to climate change. The proposed new section in the amendment is headed up:

“Duties as to climate change etc”.


It is the “etc” that I am rather interested in. I think we should spell out more clearly what that is.

Can the Minister assure the House that the guidance will include performance in all three areas—climate change, adaptation and the wider environmental objectives set by the Environment Act and in other places? Because of the massive threat that climate change represents, it is very easy—we all fall into this trap—to squeeze out focus on the other, equally vital environmental areas. We have to remember that if we want to defeat climate change, we also have to defeat biodiversity decline and a range of other environmental factors. I hope the Minister can give these assurances to the more churlish among us.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, my speech follows rather neatly from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. I will begin not by being churlish but by turning this around the other way and declaring my position as a member of Peers for the Planet and paying great tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who has so led the Government in the right direction on this Bill—as on the Financial Services Act, to think of a recent one before this. I would like to think that maybe it has got a little easier this time than it was on the Financial Services Act, so maybe we are progressing to the point where a Bill will arrive in your Lordships’ House with climate and environment already there, and we can just focus on trying to strengthen and improve it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am delighted to contribute to this rich and important debate, and particularly to speak to Amendments 10 and 13 in my name.

Commenting on the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about the importance of public health, I would stretch that much more broadly than the examples that she gave. It really ties to the previous group, where we were talking about how climate change and the nature of the environment are related to health. A public health approach really is talking about ensuring that we have a healthy environment, that we prevent illness and malfunction. If we do not have that approach in the ICBs, that is a real problem.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, that government Amendment 31 is useful but not sufficient to deal with the issues that are raised by this group of amendments. The Green group very much agrees with Amendments 9 and 12 and will support them should we get to that point.

I declare my interest as a vice-president of the LGA and the NALC, which may be relevant here. In speaking to Amendments 10 and 13, I declare exactly where I come from. It was the Royal College of Nursing that persuaded me that these amendments should be here. It is very much the college’s case that I now present.

To begin with a little bit of history, as part of the statutory regulations of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, it was mandated that registered nurses would be part of the governing body of clinical commissioning groups. If we look at Regulation 11 of the National Health Service (Clinical Commissioning Groups) Regulations 2012, we see that a CCG governing body must have at least one registered nurse within its membership. This will be lost if it is not required within the leadership of the integrated care boards.

This ties to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, that sometimes there are very powerful forces in medicine. It also relates to the points made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Brinton, about the powerful force of private interests in medicine. Other truly important voices often get swept aside. It is worth noting that in the NHS in England, registered nurses are more than 49% of all professionally qualified clinical staff. They have a unique relationship with patients and clients which gives them a different insight to other professionals on how the service works, and in ensuring that measurement of performance reflects the interests of patients and clients.

In representative volume terms alone, the case here is very clear. Registered nurses lead, innovate, and deliver the largest proportion of care, and their leadership brings critical expertise, advice and challenge into boards. Without this clinical leadership, there is a risk that service design and delivery become a matter of financial accounting, without proper attention being given to quality and outcomes for patients and clients, or that there is a focus on the heroic interventions rather than on day-to-day care or on the importance of rehabilitation, on which we heard a lot of debate in Committee and which is an area to which our registered nurses bring particular skills.

It is not my intention to move these amendments, but I hope that the Government will listen to the case being put by what is a hugely important professional body and a hugely important body of professionals, and that we see action taken after this debate to make sure that registered nurses are represented.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments in my name and to support those of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who earlier described the need to standardise the knowledge and experience of commissioners, given the potential significance of their decisions.

The Government rightly suggest that there must be some flexibility so that integrated care board membership best reflects the competences needed to commission for local populations. However, unless regulations stipulate essential criteria for members’ collective skills, knowledge and experience, we risk falling into old habits of medical paternalism. That will undermine efforts towards more integrated, holistic care and mental health needs may be given cursory regard. The voices of nurses—as so ably outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle—and other professionals will not be heard.

I would like to share with the House a well-known quote in organisational management: “Every system is perfectly designed to get the result it gets”. We now have the opportunity to safeguard the diversity of experience in each integrated care board by establishing a minimum standard, imposed either by regulation or by statutory guidance, to ensure the system gets the result that best meets commissioners’ needs for local patients and populations across the country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I wish my noble friend had stood up the moment I mentioned Amendment 10A. I can only apologise. I have received advice to agree with what my noble friend said. I shall very quickly move on and I thank him for his vast experience of this.

Let me move on to a couple of issues raised about mental health. We expect mental health trusts to play a critical role in ICBs and ICPs. The Bill sets out a minimum requirement. It does not specify what sort of care NHS trusts or NHS foundation trusts deliver. As we said earlier in the debate, we hope that ICBs by local agreement go beyond the minimum requirements. We clearly want to see parity of esteem between mental health and physical health.

Noble Lords mentioned public health. The department and NHS Improvement publications have stated an expectation of an official role for directors of public health in ICBs and ICPs. This recognises the vital advisory and leadership roles of directors of public health in the system-wide effort across all domains of public health, which is amplified by the shift to a more preventive, collaborative and integrated systems focus on improving population health. We are working very closely with stakeholders to shape this official role in relation to ICBs.

Can I just check that we talked about Amendments 14 and 32? Yes, we did. This is a more interactive session than many noble Lords would have expected. Perhaps it will do as a sort of novelty. I believe that Amendments 14 and 32 are aligned closely with the skills mix amendment, and I hope that will go some way to satisfying concerns.

On guidance, I am able to reassure your Lordship’s House that NHS England’s regional teams are having ongoing discussions with CCGs and will deal with ICB leaders about the potential membership of the ICB board on establishment. These discussions are focused on ensuring that the board will be effective in discharging the statutory duties of the ICB. Looking beyond this, NHS England is able to issue guidance to ICBs and will engage with them—to understand what issues are emerging during the initial period of operation —and their committees and how they are working with stakeholders. In some areas, NHS England is already developing draft guidance. For example, the proposal is that each ICB will be expected to have a named lead with responsibility for commissioning for learning disability and autism.

On regulations, we think the rules as currently set out in the Bill, and with the addition of the new skills mix amendment, are sufficient and will give ICBs the space they need to develop effective systems in their area. The Bill already includes a regulation-making power that covers any provision related to ICBs’ constitutions, including ICB membership. Therefore, if we deem it necessary in future to be more specific about ICBs’ membership requirements, we retain the ability to do so through regulations. I hope I have been able to provide some assurance—sufficient assurance—to noble Lords and that they will not move their amendments when they are reached.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I do not believe that the Minister has directly addressed Amendments 10 and 13. I am aware of the time, so perhaps he will agree to write to me about them.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

That is a very wise suggestion by the noble Baroness, and I will acquiesce to it.

Medical Abortion Pills

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

As I said, we are looking at the consultation carefully and considering all views. If we made it permanent, there would be lots of criticism, which we have to be aware of and make sure that we have the answers for. If we continue to expect it to be temporary, there will be plenty of criticism. Whatever we do, we will be damned, but we are going to try our best.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, talked about convenience of telemedicine for women. The fact is that women from the most disadvantaged backgrounds are three times as likely to need an abortion as those from the wealthiest backgrounds. It is not just an issue of convenience. It is a question of whether childcare is available and affordable; whether someone has a zero-hours contract job and cannot afford to take time off; or whether someone does not have access to public transport. This is very much an equalities issue—that abortion is available to every woman who needs it.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I agree with that statement but it is not what the Question is about. The Question is about a temporary measure that was put in place and whether it should be made permanent. It involves the consideration of difficult issues, including ethical issues, and we want to make sure that when we come to a decision, it is justified.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I shall try to be brief, otherwise we will be here until 3 am, and I am sure none of us want that. I join the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in the comments she has made, and I support her amendment and the government amendments. I also agree that the system should be mandatory— not “may” but “shall”— and aligned with the similar system in the United States which I was used to many years ago.

To try to explore this further with the industry, I have been in correspondence with the ABPI to test how committed it is to agreeing to this being mandatory and that they “shall report” in all aspects. I will read what it sent me:

“ABPI are supportive of the intention to move to a mandatory model of disclosure for payments made between industry and relevant individuals including Health Professionals, and”


all healthcare organisations and research institutions. It continues:

“We believe proposals to introduce a legislative mandate are an opportunity to further strengthen the pharmaceutical sector’s existing transparency mechanism for branded medicines”—


that was the point I made to it, that its system needs to be transparent, mandatory and easily accessible by patients and the public. It goes on:

“Our briefing outlines a number of considerations and learnings based on ABPI’s experience running Disclosure UK, which since 2016 has supported transparency around transfers of value made by the innovative pharmaceutical industry to relevant individuals including Health Professionals … and Healthcare Organisations”.


I asked for a similar comment from industries that market medical devices, and I understand that a similar commitment is made by those companies too.

I therefore support the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and support the Government’s amendment. However, I hope that the Minister can confirm that the loose word “may” is not intentional and they intend to make this mandatory.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly, rather enjoying this reunion from our debates during the passage of the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill of a group of people who taught me a great deal about dealing with legislation. We also looked at an amendment that was very like this. There is a phrase I use often: “Campaigning works”. I should make that “Campaigning by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, works particularly well”. We are seeing real progress here, although, as many noble Lords have already said, we need to make sure that this is mandatory and not some kind of voluntary extra.

When I was working on the then Medicines and Medical Devices Bill, I spoke to a number of people from the industry. They were very much concerned about the fact that they wanted tight rules that apply to everybody, otherwise those who cut corners and push the envelope have a competitive advantage against people who doing the right thing, being absolutely open and not flinging money around. Many parts of the sector are keen on tight rules.

It is interesting that it has taken us so long to get to this point when the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, presented ways of doing this back in the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill. We have not heard the Government using their favourite phrasing “world-leading” or “world-beating” very often in this area. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, we are very much trailing behind other countries in our transparency here.

I will make one final comment. We have a huge problem with public trust—we see this on the street outside your Lordships’ House quite often. Absolute transparency and openness is crucial and, as we heard in Oral Questions earlier, the fact that some companies have been able to profiteer hugely from the pandemic causes more damage to public trust. We need to tackle that with as much of the sunlight of transparency and openness as possible.

[Lord Stevens of Birmingham (CB)]

Briefly, I also support these amendments, including the Government’s comprehensive amendment, but I was spurred into action by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. It is worth saying that when it comes to public trust, a survey of 28 countries conducted at the end of last year found that British doctors were more trusted by people in this country than doctors in any of the other 27, so we start from a well-founded position of high trust. However, trust in a profession is of course founded on the basis that people will act in a way that puts the interests of the person they are looking after first, and these amendments help to deliver that.

I want to use the opportunity to try to draw the Minister out slightly on a couple of questions supplementary to those which my noble friend Lord Patel raised. Sunlight may indeed be the best disinfectant. but we have two types of shade going on at the moment. The first is that, through the voluntary register which the ABPI established in 2017, we have just under a third of eligible doctors who are not reporting. Therefore, obviously to the extent that the Government commence these amendments on a mandatory basis, that will deal with that aspect of shade; the 68% will become 100%, which will be most welcome.

The second type of shade relates to the scope of the payments that have to be declared. Here, I think the Government’s amendment is potentially very suitably broad. However, it would be wonderful to hear the Minister confirm that it will cover payments to all NHS bodies, not just to trusts or indeed teaching hospitals; that primary care will be in scope; that it will cover the independent sector as well as the NHS; that it will cover payments made to patients’ organisations; and whether, in time, the Government will consider extending it to payments made to health professionals other than doctors. I conclude by simply reporting that when you ask people in this country which profession they most trust, the answer is actually not doctors; it is nurses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Patel (CB)]

Can the Minister confirm what he just said: that it is the intention to bring regulations? How strong is that intention? The “may” creates a problem.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, can I add a question about timeframes to that? When can we expect the regulations?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I have two points to make to the noble Lord. First, I have been advised that this is standard wording. Secondly, I have made the assurance at the Dispatch Box. It is here; it is on public record that the Government intend to bring forward regulations. On the timeframe, I will either write to noble Lords or arrange a follow-up meeting. I will make sure that there is some communication to bridge that gap.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 297A and 297D. I will be brief, because we have already had a very lengthy and wide-ranging debate. The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, is important, and she has set out the case for a named GP very well. As people become older, they tend to develop a more complicated and interrelated set of healthcare needs, and a GP who has that overview and can liaise with the family is extremely important.

I will add two quick points that have not come up in the debate so far. First, it might sound like a statement of the blindingly obvious, but for this very desirable amendment to happen, there need to be enough GPs in the system. Frankly, I am concerned that, despite commitments from the Government to increase the number of GPs by 6,000 by 2025, there is no current plan for how this will be achieved. The number of qualified full-time equivalent GPs is smaller today than it was in 2015.

Secondly, in relation to health inequalities, it is matter of real concern that GP practices serving more deprived populations receive less funding and often serve much larger numbers of patients than GPs in more affluent areas. I looked at the figures, which I will not repeat, and there are huge disparities in the size of the lists that they serve. I feel that passing an amendment of this sort on continuity of care would most likely benefit patients in the most deprived areas. With this debate, and if this amendment were accepted, I hope that there would be more pressure on the system to relieve that very unhelpful trend.

Amendment 297D is an extremely important amendment, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for raising it. I do not want to repeat what he said, save to say that I would see this review as a first step towards strengthening the rights of care home residents and their relatives to visit, to keep in touch and to spot the signs of abuse. We all understand how hard the pandemic has been. Most care homes have done their level best, despite a lack of access to PPE and testing in the early days. None the less, many of the visiting restrictions that have been imposed have far too often been blanket restrictions, rather than restrictions that took individual cases and individual needs into account.

We had the repeat Statement from the Minister last week on vaccinations, and we were told that there is now no limit on the number of visitors allowed in care homes. I can tell noble Lords that I have not been able to visit my mother inside her care home since before Christmas, because there have been continuous outbreaks of Covid. Often it affects only two people, but that is enough to shut the care home down. This is why there needs to be a more proportionate and individually judged approach to these things.

Finally, if we had a review of this sort and could strengthen rights, I would hope that we could also strengthen the human rights of care home residents, including self-funded residents who currently have no recourse to the Human Rights Act, which is fundamentally unfair.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I attached my name to Amendment 290 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, but I support all these amendments. The comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, on Amendment 291 were particularly important as an improvement, but it is still crucial that this is all looked at holistically.

I will confine my remarks to Amendment 290, which is about social prescribing for dementia, focusing in particular on music and the arts. We have discussed social prescribing extensively and I will not go back over that ground. However, I will note how much the Alzheimer’s Society website stresses the importance of music and the arts for the quality of life and care of Alzheimer’s patients, and dementia patients more broadly.

I want to join up a couple of dots. The amendment talks about ensuring that health professionals are aware of the benefits, but I would like to word it much more strongly to ensure that this is regarded as an essential part of care, not a luxury add-on extra—“If we can find the money we’ll do this nice thing”—which all too often is how it is regarded. On that point, I link back to my Amendments 237 to 239, which were debated in a previous Committee session, on ownership of care homes and the flow of funds into care homes, and the fact that 16% to 20% of money in the average care bed is going into financial instruments. If we took two-thirds of that money and put it into more traditional medical, social-type care, and put in some more money for carers to be paid a little better, we would still have some money left for this kind of social prescribing. If we look at that in this context, we see how we join all this up. We really need to stress that social prescribing is an essential part of care, not some luxury add-on extra.

In one more effort to join up the dots, I will make the point that often in your Lordships’ House different people work on different areas and things are not joined up. We have some noble Lords, particularly on the Cross Benches, who do a lot of work in the creative industries, which, financially, are suffering enormously through the Covid pandemic. There is something to be done here in joining up with government-funded projects that help people in the creative sector do some training and get some skills, to enable them to take their skills, knowledge, enthusiasm and energy into social care—thereby spreading economic prosperity and improving people’s quality of life. Let us try to join these things up a bit more and not look at them in silos.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow everyone who has spoken in this group. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, for so powerfully and clearly introducing this amendment, to which I was pleased to attach my name. The case has been overwhelmingly made, so I will not go over the same ground but will add a couple of points and draw some things together.

It is interesting that we started the day with the ARIA Bill. Concern was expressed from several quarters of your Lordships’ House about public money going into ARIA and whether we would see public returns from that money. As the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, what we have seen so often is the socialisation of costs and the privatisation of profits in so many areas of research and knowledge.

I draw to the attention of any noble Lord who has not seen it a very useful briefing on this amendment prepared jointly by Just Treatment, STOPAIDS, Global Justice Now and Universities Allied for Essential Medicines. That brings out two points, and it is worth looking at the national and the international. We have tended to focus on the international. Nationally there are some fascinating figures. The NHS pays more than £1 billion a year for medicines, but two-thirds of the upfront costs of producing those medicines come from public funding.

That is the national side. Looking at the international side, we have talked about and focused very much on Covid, but we really need to think about the fact that we are now in the age of shocks, in a world that is environmentally extremely disturbed. That is certainly a factor in the appearance of Covid; we have seen SARS and MERS, and there is Ebola out there. We need to build resilience into our world. We are talking about changing so many different things, and whether it is supply chains, medical supply chains specifically, or anything else, we really need to think about preparing for that different world, with the focus on resilience, rather than on private profits as it has been.

The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, asked an interesting question: why do we see the UK, the EU and Switzerland lining up against the rest of the world? The answer is there in profits, in an ideology that says, “We have to organise everything for private profits and somehow the benefits will trickle down.” It is interesting that today Michael Gove has gone on the record as saying that trickle-down has not worked; it is a failed ideology. Of course, there is also the impact of those profits being fed into our political system and the influence that that money and that lobbying have.

I will finish with this final thought. The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said—and I think this reflects what other noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, and the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said—that we have been utterly wicked in our behaviour towards the global south in the Covid pandemic in failing to ensure that it has crucial vaccines. We have also, as has become obvious with omicron, spectacularly shot ourselves in the foot. I say to those who will not accept moral arguments for this amendment: please look at the practical self-interest. No one is safe until everyone is safe.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti for raising the crucial matter of countries and peoples left behind in terms of the opportunity to have a necessary vaccination programme available to them. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours spoke of the importance of supporting innovation, which is one of the ways in which we can ensure that, while my noble friend Lord Howarth rightly said that the subject requires exploration outside of the Health and Care Bill—something also commented on by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, who emphasised, as do I, the need for the political will to make progress.

There is no doubt, as we have heard today, about the gravity of the issues at stake and the need to resolve them. It is the case that where public funding is provided there must be conditionality, although of course that may be complex to refine into legislation. There are of course additional issues when funding is also coming from the private sector along with a need to ensure a balance of interests. It would certainly be helpful to have a stipulation that avoided placing undue bureaucracy and restraint on smaller developments and small-scale research. We do not want to see the pace of research slowed down with researchers tied up in lengthy proposal writing, contract negotiations and legal agreements.

As my noble friend Lady Lawrence has said, we know that the pandemic is not over until it is over everywhere, so the amendment raises the opportunity to explore whether the immediate waiver of intellectual property rights would mean an end to the pandemic everywhere. It is relevant to assess what contribution or otherwise intellectual property rights make to the promotion of technological innovation and the transfer and dissemination of technology. There is an advantage for producers and users of technological knowledge and the consideration of rights and obligations, and that needs to be considered in the round.

In respect of the response and actions to a pandemic declared by the World Health Organization, while I understand the intention behind the amendment, in order to be consistent I would comment with some caution about the Secretary of State being compelled to immediately take actions, particularly without any form of oversight—something that we will return to later in Committee.

However, I hope that today we can obtain some reassurances from the Minister about the Government’s intentions and plans in order that we can find a way forward so that low-income countries and their peoples have access to vaccines both now and in future.

Elective Care Recovery

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

We hope that the funding will deliver around 9 million more checks, scans and procedures, and we hope to support our aim for the NHS to deliver around 30% more elective activity by 2024-25, compared to pre-pandemic levels. As part of that, we have allocated £2.3 billion to increase the volume of diagnostic activity, and we are rolling out at least 100 further community diagnostic centres by 2024-25 to help with the backlogs of people waiting for clinical tests such as MRIs, ultrasounds and CT scans. These increases will allow the NHS to carry out 4.5 million additional scans by 2024-25, increasing capacity and enabling earlier diagnosis.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, today I received a message from a member of the public who said that a relative had been told by their NHS doctor that they could not even give them a timeframe for when treatment would be available, but that they could ring a private hospital where treatment would be available in a couple of weeks. Does the Minister acknowledge that there is a real conflict in resources between private and public? What will the Government do to deal with people left in that really difficult situation?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The Government clearly recognise that there is a backlog, which is why we have announced the additional funding. We hope to announce the elective recovery plan very soon. The other measure that we have taken is launching My Planned Care, which allows NHS providers to upload supportive information to the platform to help patients to manage their conditions while they wait for treatment. There will also be personalised support, including advice on prevention services et cetera. We also hope that, eventually, it will have more data on expected waiting times, for example, so there will be more information for the patient. At the same time, we hope that the additional investment that we have announced will help to tackle the backlog in elective recovery.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, before we resume the debate, perhaps I may point out that we went very quickly last Wednesday—many thanks for that excellent performance. The last group also went quickly. May I respectfully point out that we need to do nine and a half groups this evening? Once again, I ask noble Lords to acknowledge how much we still have to do on this Bill and adjust their contributions accordingly if at all possible.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, debate on this group was somewhat interrupted and I will remind everyone that we are talking about dental health. I will speak first to Amendment 224 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt and others, to which I attached my name. It calls for a statement from the Secretary of State on access to dental care at regular intervals.

This comes back to a point I have made again and again about the Secretary of State taking responsibility and being forced to come before Parliament to take that responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, introduced the amendment clearly and I agree pretty well with everything he said. However, I will now start to disagree with him. I note that I am addressing a number of amendments on fluoridation that were signed by my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. Those who were paying attention before will note that her name was on the Annunciator as being in the other Committee Room when we started this group, so I am speaking on her behalf.

There is an interesting progression here because, if I had been asked to do that a few years ago, I would have been quite uncomfortable. Had I been asked a few years ago which Green Party policy I disagreed with, the one I would have questioned was our opposition to mass fluoridation. But I have been on a political and scientific journey since then and I have come to realise that fluoridation is one of those health measures and medical practices that came to be adopted because it seemed like a good idea, well before we did proper trials, work and consideration. As the noble Lord, Lord Reay, said, there is now increasing scientific questioning.

I do not want to go over the same ground as the noble Lord, Lord Reay, but will think about where we are and apply systems thinking to this. The fact is that, according to the Drinking Water Inspectorate, the number of people now willing to drink water from the taps in the UK has dropped from 90% in 1978 to 73% in 1998. To put it another way, one in four people now mistrust the water coming out of their taps and will not drink it.

We can see the impact of that if we happen to go into a supermarket. We see a great many people lugging large, often plastic, bottles of water. They are often people who are struggling to pay for that water, yet they are buying it because of their lack of trust in the water supply that is actually far healthier than what is in the bottles. I would urge them all to drink the tap water, which is the healthy option.

We have a real problem of trust—something we have seen in other contexts. This potential mass fluoridation imposed from the centre above is something that potentially could have a real impact on reducing tap water. The noble Lord, Lord Reay, said, “Well, people can’t afford it, so it’s the poorest who’ll be forced to drink the water”. But the evidence shows that many people who cannot afford it now—from more disadvantaged and BAME backgrounds and who suffer from many disadvantages—who are reluctant to drink that water. We have also seen these issues of trust around the Covid-19 vaccine. These issues could see real risks to dental health.

We also want to apply some real systems thinking. The noble Lord, Lord Reay, referred to the fact that Scotland has brought in some good, targeted programmes on dental health that help children learn to brush their teeth and address diet and the consumption of sugary foods that has so many other health issues. We know what happens in politics. We have a problem with tooth decay and the Government say, “Right, we’re doing fluoridation”. Where are we going to see the money, focus and attention on those targeted programmes that would reach the children who need it most?

--- Later in debate ---

Looking at the big picture, we have 57 years’ experience in England and 75 years internationally, and in that time there has been no credible evidence of health harms of fluoridation schemes. Tooth decay is a significant but largely preventable public health problem. As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, rightly said, we know that water fluoridation is an effective public health intervention to reduce tooth decay and oral health inequalities, not least among children. Those inequalities in certain counties and regions are extremely serious. Therefore, as regards the provisions of the Bill, Clauses 147 and 148 are designed to enable us to move forward meaningfully in the drive to reduce oral health inequalities across this country. I commend these clauses to the Committee and hope that noble Lords will support them.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I raised the issue of the lack of public trust in tap water and the fact that that is a public health issue and could be magnified. Could the Minister comment on that and suggest what the Government are planning to do about it?

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, because she was making a significant point. I am not sure that I share her perception that those who buy bottled water in supermarkets necessarily do so as a reflection of their lack of trust in tap water; a lot of it has to do with some myths around the benefits of bottled water. However, be that as it may, I will take advice and write to the noble Baroness. I am not sufficiently sighted on the issue she raised and the evidence behind it, so it is probably appropriate if I look into it and write to her.

--- Later in debate ---

We do not think that people younger than 40 can, in general, realistically be expected to have planned for having a care and support need, nor will they have accumulated significant assets. People may still be paying off debts and have significant amounts to pay on their mortgage, and could have young families. We recognised those problems, and it is why we recommended a zero cap. There is not a lot of argument about that; it is a straightforward explanation of what the evidence said when we were drawing up this report. I support the non-governmental amendments, and think that the Minister should go back to his colleagues and start to think again.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, having attached my name to Amendment 233 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, and Amendment 235, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, I shall rise briefly. I am not quite sure why I did not attach my name to Amendment 234 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull. I certainly meant to, so I apologise for not doing so. I did that because I was approached to show broad cross-party support. Indeed, my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on the same amendment definitely demonstrates that.

As someone concerned about poverty and inequality, I could not but do that. The noble Baronesses, Lady Bull and Lady Greengross, have set out the cases very clearly. I am not going to run through again the levels of poverty and inequality and the sheer struggle that so many people currently face and will face in future. As we have been around the houses for quite a long while on whether Clause 140 stand part, I shall just refer to one sentence in the Age UK report because it sums up where we are very clearly. It says:

“It is clear that these changes have the potential to save the Government hundreds of millions of pounds, but at the expense of those on low incomes, with modest assets and living in parts of the country where houses values are lower.”


It is the very opposite of levelling up.

However, in the context of this debate and particularly after the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, I want to set out an alternative vision—a vision that is much more radical than anything noble Lords have heard from anyone else tonight. It is the vision that was passed at the Green Party conference in October after a long and very hard-working campaign, particularly by our group of disabled members. It calls for free social care for all adults. Members of your Lordships’ House will have often heard me talking about a universal basic income, and I see the other side of that as universal basic services. I regard social care as a basic service. If you need help to eat, wash and lead a full life under your own control, that should be provided free at the point of need in the same way as the NHS is provided. This is a basic philosophical difference from others who have said that we need it all means-tested and that we need to be able to look at where a person is. I say that if someone needs this help it should be provided and then, whether or not people who have the means to contribute to that, whether they have been unfortunate enough to suffer a disability or a limiting illness, they should all be in that position.

I am aware of the time, so I will make just one final point on postcode lotteries. We often express a great deal of concern about postcode lotteries, but there is another lottery that occurs to people in this situation. Some people who suffer very serious disabilities or very serious illnesses that affect their living conditions are able, through the courts, to receive payments. Perhaps their parents are able to show that they suffered some disability at birth as a result of inadequate care, and they receive a very large payment that is set at a level to provide them with a decent level of care for life. Perhaps they are a young adult who is knocked off their bicycle and it is possible to hold a driver responsible. They get a very large court payout absolutely rightly. I am not challenging that under the current system at all, but they get that payment. Someone with exactly the same condition who cannot go to court and the people caring for them, their parents or relatives, have to struggle and fight at every level and at every moment to get the care that they need. That is just not right.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I just want to contribute to this debate. I fully support the remarks of my noble friend Lady Thornton. I was particularly struck by her dissection of this Government’s totally preposterous claim to have a plan for social care. They do not have a plan. All they have is a regressive tax and a broken promise.

I am tempted by the remarks of my noble friend Lord Lipsey to enter into a broader debate on these issues. Clearly, this issue is not going to go away. This is not the end and the issues that were raised will come back again and again until we move towards something fairer and more comprehensive. I cannot resist saying that I am unconvinced that deferred annuities will have any part in any sort of mass market provision of care. As a product, they are fatally flawed, in my view.

My noble friend’s remarks also made me think of the extent to which this debate is taking place while ignoring the key factor in these issues, which is housing or, rather, property management. That is really what we are talking about, but we do not mention it in the context of these debates, which is unfortunate. I am glad my noble friend raised these issues. However, I think the substantive point this evening is the imperative of sending this clause back to the Commons where they can reassess it with greater time than they were allowed initially.

Finally, I just want to highlight the revealing and outrageous statement by the Minister in the Commons, Mr Argar. He said the Government

“have always intended for the cap to apply to what people personally contribute, rather than on the combination of their personal contribution and that of the state.”—[Official Report, Commons, 22/11/21; col. 110.]

I do not believe that means-tested benefits are any more money being given by the state than my pension that I get from the national insurance scheme. It is outrageous to cast people as, in a sense, recipients of charity. It is their rights as citizens to have this money, and it is their money; it is not the state’s money. It reveals the Poor Law mindset of this Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, delayed transfers in care is an ongoing challenge for health and social care services, made worse with the pandemic. We need to remember that hospitals are for assessment and treatment. As other noble Lords have already said, extensive stay in hospital is not good for your health.

In February 2020, there were over 155,000 delay days in hospital, costing a significant amount of money. A majority of the delays—21%—were caused by delays in packages of care in patients’ own homes, while 18% were due to delays in receiving further non-acute NHS care. With over half a million emergency admissions in the same month, intervention is urgently needed to reduce systematic pressures and maintain safe and timely discharge.

I therefore particularly support Amendment 289 to optimise existing space and develop new accommodation for hospital patients who no longer require acute treatment. There are a range of options, including community hospitals, NHS nursing homes, contracts with not-for-profit social enterprises and, as my noble friend Lady Greengross has said, independent sector companies.

However, these issues are not new. I have in my hands a paper by Sir Cyril Chantler for the King’s Fund, The Potential of Community Hospitals to Change the Delivery of Health Care. The salutary point about this excellent paper is that it was written in 2001.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly, since I attached my name to Amendment 289, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. She set out the reason for the need for this service, but I just want to say explicitly—particularly given the next group of amendments—that I do not believe that independent providers, for-profit providers at least, would be the way of doing this, given the many problems that we have seen in social care, which are highlighted in the next group.

We still have, in some places at least, community hospitals and facilities in communities. These are things that ideally would be developed by the community for the community, being run for public good not private profit.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 289 in the names of my noble friends Lady Greengross, Lady Watkins, Lady Finlay and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

Reading the words of the amendment reminded me of the speech that my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton gave in your Lordships’ Chamber on 29 November 2012—col. 274 in Hansard. She talked movingly about a young man, a wheelchair user who had to remain in hospital four months longer than he should have because of a lack of accessible accommodation —a travesty. One can only imagine the impact on the mental health and well-being of someone in this situation. Sadly, many more now know what this feels like.

Although the situation we are in now is somewhat different, I hope that the Minister will be able to give due consideration to the needs of disabled people, in relation to accessibility—for example, regarding toilets, showers, and specialist equipment—but also to the support networks that disabled people may require, while ensuring that appropriate and knowledgeable people are able to support their rehab. This is vital so that many disabled people are not marooned.

While I have been in your Lordships’ Chamber tonight, I have been sent some data on the work carried out by Dr Elizabeth Williamson about the mortality rates of those on the learning disability register over the last 18 months; these rates are, quite frankly, shocking. I need some time to go through the data in detail and digest it. I will write to the Minister to explore this further but, at a quick glance, the data gives me cause for significant concern and means that careful implementation of the amendments in this group will be very important to protect and support disabled people.

Going back to the amendment, a disabled person’s ability to return home may or may not be more complicated than for a non-disabled person during this time but a longer stay than necessary could have a significant impact on someone’s mental health and well-being, especially if not properly supported, and could even hamper their long-term physical recovery, which, in turn, would put more pressure on the NHS.