Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, noble Lords have already heard from my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, a former Brexiteer who has seen the chaos we have already, before this Bill is enacted, and has said that she has had enough and wants to rejoin the EU, as the whole Green Party does. I was initially going to have a list—a chart—of all the practical problems but so many people have done such a great job on that already: the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, on labour rights, the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, on all the Defra issues and Defra’s incapacity to deal with them, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, on the issues being raised for the devolved Administrations, whom the Government so often seem to ignore.

That the Government lack the capacity to deliver the fantasy they are setting out in any kind of orderly way is clearly not stopping them, or perhaps not being orderly is the intention of at least some parts of the Government. In the financial sector there is a lot of money to be made from chaos, as Naomi Klein showed us so clearly two decades ago in her explanation of the shock doctrine of disaster capitalism.

It is very clear that this Bill, should your Lordships’ House not oppose it, will be a complete working out of the hashtag #ToryChaos. I urge all sides of your Lordships’ House to oppose the Bill—to vote it down. We have heard from a barrage of Cross Benchers and more than a few Conservatives how dreadful it is. The responsibility is in our hands. How bad does a swathe of Henry VIII clauses have to be before your Lordships’ House takes responsibility? I direct that remark particularly to the Benches to my right.

As I am speaker number 46, much has already been covered and I aim not to go over old ground. Instead, I am going to take a different approach and interrogate the Government’s own stated intentions with the Bill and see how lacking a base in realism they are. In the Government’s own words on the retained EU law dashboard, the justification is:

“This will allow us to create a new pro-growth, high standards regulatory framework that gives businesses the confidence to innovate, invest and create jobs.”


I want to unpack that. They say they want to remove outdated regulation that may be hampering growth. What does “outdated” mean? Is a protection for nature, for workers’ rights, for consumer rights outdated? Who is going to judge? What kind of growth? Surely your Lordships’ House will agree that we do not want growth in water pollution, air pollution or exploitation of workers. All-out growth, of course, is the ideology of the cancer cell.

On creating a high standards framework, I go back to our earlier discussion of the environmental improvement plan and the issue of plastics, highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. We do not have a bottle deposit scheme in England, but many EU countries have one, so it is not EU rules that have stopped that. The French are racing towards getting rid of single-use containers in fast food stores—that is within EU rules.

On confidence to invest, I will quote an Institute for Government report from last year on business investment:

“The UK has persistently lagged other comparable countries.”


It is well behind Germany, France and Italy; it is not EU rules that are holding them back.

The Minister used the phrase “create … jobs” again. That is curious, when the lack of people for jobs is currently one of the UK’s great problems. We have 47,000 nurse vacancies, an 11% vacancy rate in the care sector and an overall vacancy rate of 1.3 million. Do we not need to find a way to use the human resources that we have now? EU rules are not stopping us doing that.

Finally, in introducing the Bill, the Minister spoke of “countless opportunities”. I assume he meant that rhetorically, but of course it is literally true: the Government are still trying to count the number of regulations and rules that the Bill covers—

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I suggest that the noble Baroness brings her comments to a close.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

How can you make a law when you do not know what it covers?

Net Zero

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, who picked up many of the points that I will seek to expand on. I declare my position as a vice-president of the LGA and of the NALC. I will focus on larger councils, as well as town and parish councils. There are 129 recommendations to debate in this hour. I will focus on two of them.

The first is the recommendation to end the disjointed mess of short-term, competitive local authority funding pots. As the Skidmore report says, that would enable communities to maximise the economic and social benefits of net zero while using resources most effectively. As Professor Tony Travers often points out, local government is a very efficient spender of funds, often more efficient than central government. The Government need to sit down with local government and ask it—not tell it—how to achieve net-zero targets, starting at the local level, and realise that this is the way resources can be put to best use.

The second point the Skidmore review highlights is also a story of localism: the importance of the community energy sector, which the report says is “neglected by government” and

“a distilled example of energy security and sovereignty”.

The Local Electricity Bill has been tabled in the other place. In your Lordships’ House we have an amendment that I tabled to the Energy Bill in Committee that will come back on Report. This is a huge opportunity—dare I say an oven-ready plan?—to unleash community energy, with possibilities for net zero and local prosperity. It is sitting there; the Government simply need to pick it up. I note that there is very strong Tory support for it in the other place.

However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, just said, all this crosses over very much with the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. The levelling up fund disasters we just saw were hugely wasteful, yet we see the same model in the social housing decarbonisation fund, in various schemes for private home energy efficiency, such as home upgrade grants, and in transport decarbonisation funding. Central government throws out a random pot of money and says, “Bid for this quickly”, and local government at all levels has to scramble. That is not an efficient model. It has always been a problem, with turnarounds on bidding and spending that drive inefficiencies rather than efficiencies, but it is even more of a problem now, with inflation meaning that, for example, capping rules on spend per house have made it even more difficult to spend the allocations because the cost of insultation is going up so fast.

We saw that in the levelling up fund only shovel-ready projects were able to bid, so councils had quickly to scrape together ideas and things that were already in the pipeline rather than planning for the long term, which is what the efficient use of money and the delivery of net zero and workable schemes demand. We need the Government to allocate money strategically on the basis of need and on a long-term basis. This is the case for local government spending. In terms of community, it is simply a case of setting people free to do what they are desperate to do. Communities want to get together, find good uses for local money, build local prosperity, supply local energy and get on with tackling the net-zero challenge. A climate emergency has been declared by 409 principal authority councils. They want to act and communities want to act. As this review makes clear, the Government have to let them.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I am grateful for those points, which I will try to answer briefly since they were put to me directly.

First, I hope that nothing in what I said suggested, implied or stated that I do not accept that climate change is happening. I am also perfectly happy to accept that there is a man-made contribution to that. What I reject is the language of climate alarmism and climate crisis. The questions around the consequence, in practice, of climate change and the best means for dealing with it remain absolutely open. Over the last 20 years, we have seen wild, extravagant and unjustified claims about how large parts of the world are going to sink under water and we are all going to scorch; in fact, we see very little of that, but we see a few weather events being played up as if they are great catastrophes. Even if that were happening, the question that arises is what you do about it.

Many of us would rather put the emphasis on mitigation and adaptation rather than what we are doing at the moment, which is absolutely damaging our economy, in order that we should try to avoid those emissions. The cost of that damage to our economy has been estimated by the Climate Change Committee as at least 1% of GDP per annum—most people recognise, I think fairly, that it is closer to 4% or 5%. There are those who would say that that that cost is both necessary and justified, but it is none the less a damage to our economy, and not all of us accept that it is necessary and justified—we think that there are other methods of dealing with it.

I have not rejected climate change. I accept that net zero is a statutory target—I said nothing contrary to that. If I may repeat myself—this is my fault entirely; it is the problem with having an amateur such as myself drafting amendments—I apologised when I spoke for using the word “increase”, which I can change if we come back to this on Report. That was not quite what I meant; I meant increase relative to imports, such that I explained that my amendment would be applicable even if our consumption of gas was falling.

There is not that much in the substance of the comments that the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, made about my remarks. None the less, we have a profound disagreement—less about the science and more about what to do about it.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, rising to speak after the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and his representation of an extremely minority view, I will restrain myself and simply say that there will be no jobs on a dead planet. I will leave it there.

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[Lord Lilley (Con)]

So, had the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, got her amendment in first, the noble Lord would have signed it. It is interesting to know that the Liberal Democrats are against any new fields in the North Sea.

What I want to try to get home to those members of the Committee who have not yet taken it on board is that up to now we have pursued a path to net zero which involves reducing demand for fossil fuels by replacing fossil fuels with renewable energy. That is a logical path to pursue. We have not been seeking to achieve it by reducing supply of fossil fuels. As a result, if people choose to produce more fossil fuels than there is demand, as demand falls fossil fuel producers will be left with stranded assets and lose money. It could not happen to a nicer bunch of people, but why should we think that our judgments are better than theirs or worry about them erring and producing too much, investing too much and not getting their money back? That is up to them.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

May I pursue the point? When I have made it and made my own case, I look forward to the noble Baroness demolishing it.

We will continue to use gas, albeit in reducing amounts, for decades, probably alongside carbon capture and storage. That is accepted by almost everybody I know. If the UK bans production, which would be an absurd thing to do, given that we do not ban imports of natural gas, we will simply leave others to supply our needs and needs elsewhere in the world. If lots of countries decide to ban new supply, if they succeed in reducing supply faster than we reduce demand, there will be shortages. Prices will shoot up. There will be the same sort of crisis—and huge profits for the oil industries—and we will have done to ourselves what Putin has done to us by reducing supply more rapidly than demand. I want to know why the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, want to introduce that sort of risk into the system. Why not just pursue the steady path of reducing demand until it is net zero?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

It is interesting that the noble Lord’s analysis bears a great deal of resemblance to that of the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty proponents, who point out that we have been seeking to reduce demand and say that they explicitly want to reduce supply. I think the noble Lord was making the case that the price will go up if there is not enough supply. Of course, the reverse is true: if there is too much supply, the price will go down. Indeed, we saw this during Covid, with petrol in the United States—gas, as they call it—where people were actually being paid to store and hold it, because you cannot switch these supplies on and off like a tap. Once you build a field, you are going to keep producing that stuff: you cannot suddenly switch it on and off. So, if you have overproduction, you have extremely low prices and those prices, of course, do not reflect the actual cost and the damage being done, either in terms of the climate or all the other damages that the WHO, signing up to this treaty, points out, in terms of the damage done to human health by burning fossil fuels.

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[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I have good news for the noble Baroness, because those issues were covered in Shale Gas Extraction in the UK: A Review of Hydraulic Fracturing, produced by the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering. We are all constantly urged to follow the science, so let us follow the science in that review. She discussed water, and according to the review:

“Overall water use is important. Estimates indicate that the amount needed to operate a hydraulically fractured shale gas well for a decade may be equivalent to the amount needed to water a golf course for a month”.


That seems something with which we can probably cope. She then discussed the possible results leading to the pollution of aquifers. The review says:

“Concerns have been raised about the risk of fractures propagating from shale formations to reach overlying aquifers. The available evidence indicates that this risk is very low provided that shale gas extraction takes place at depths of many hundreds of metres or several kilometres.”


In the UK’s Bowland shale, it would be kilometres deep. The review continues:

“Geological mechanisms constrain the distances that fractures may propagate vertically. Even if communication with overlying aquifers were possible, suitable pressure conditions would still be necessary for contaminants to flow through fractures.”


When you have a kilometre or more of stone—impermeable rock—bearing down, you could not get a better seal.

Nevertheless, we do not have to worry about scientific analysis and theory, because we have practical experience. Over a million wells have been fracked in North America; not a single one has resulted in a building falling down from tremors or in a single person being poisoned by contaminated aquifers. So we are bound to conclude that lots of people have been spreading the sort of scaremongering that would make anti-vaxxers blush—even Andrew Bridgen would probably blush if he heard some of the stuff that has been put out by the friends of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, at their various camps around every conceivable attempt to get fracking going. We should rely on the science and the scientific reports and regulate the industry well, as we have done in the past.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Since the noble Lord addressed me directly on fracking, I ask him if he is aware of the article published in 2020 in Environmental Health Perspectives in the United States which showed that babies with low birth weight are significantly more common in families living close to fracking wells in the US. That demonstrates the practical reality of the outcome of fracking on health.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

What is the mechanism by which those babies are born with low health when they are near a well?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The scientists behind that study say that they cannot explain it, that it needs further examination and that there are a number of possible mechanisms.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I have not read the report, but I will read it. I have read similar reports, and almost all rely on the statistical phenomenon that random events are as likely to be bunched together as they are to be evenly spread; I say that as someone who studied statistics. This results in bunches of things; for example, you will get bunches certain cancers somewhere near Windscale, as it used to be called, yet there are bunches elsewhere not near Windscale but people do not worry about them. I very much doubt that there is any scientific basis—and indeed the authors of the article could not think of any scientific basis—as to why we should relate one thing to another in that case. It is the sort of thing that the anti-vaxxers say when they find a little concern. Obviously we should always be concerned about issues such as vaccination or drilling under pressure, but we should not exploit people’s fears to stop something we do not like for other reasons. I hope that my amendment will be adopted and that it will mean that we actually regulate the shale gas industry on exactly the same basis as we do all other industries which can produce similar environmental impacts.

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[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness. This brings to mind the debate we had in the Chamber last week about greenwashing and all the wider implications.

On the amendments in this group, I will talk about the demand and supply side, because it is important that we do not look at this in isolation; we have to think about the impact on people and how we can motivate our populations and communities to get behind the drive towards net zero. That is a very important consideration in these amendments.

The International Energy Agency clearly set out that there must be no new oil and gas fields and no new coal-fired power stations built if the world is to stay within safe limits of global heating and meet the goal of net-zero emissions by 2050. There is now, finally, acknowledgement and recognition that moving away from fossil fuels is the key to achieving greater energy security. This debate has been going on for decades; what a tragedy that it is the horrendous situation in Ukraine that has brought it to a head. Action much sooner would have helped prevent us being in the position we are in today.

The noble Lord, Lord Lilley, talked about a steady transition. The point we are trying to get across is that there is an urgency here. There needs to be a rapid transition if we are to have any chance of moving along in the way that has been outlined, as we need to.

The other issue is how we permanently help households move away from the volatility of fossil fuel prices and reduce the fiscal burden of financial support to households through this and any future energy crisis. We have talked a great deal on other occasions about energy efficiency. We hear about the amounts that the Government are putting into this space but, quite frankly, the demand in this area is much higher than the response that we have had so far. I will not go into all the cost of living implications, but we cannot forget the millions of households that are set to be in fuel poverty this winter. This has to be one of the main drivers in making sure that we get the amendments we need into the Bill so that we can move away from the volatility and expense of fossil fuels.

Amendment 227A in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Lennie seems to me an absolute no-brainer; it is already in train, and we need to move forward on it. I have one very simple question for the Minister: will he support our amendment today?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I am very interested and pleased that the noble Baroness referred to the International Energy Agency study that I mentioned. The inference could be drawn from her comments that the Labour Party supports a ban on new oil and gas. I know that many people out there listening to us today would be very interested to know whether that is the case. Can the noble Baroness confirm that the Labour Party supports a ban on new oil and gas?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

It was a nice try, but I think that is without the scope of this debate.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

As I say in the Member’s explanatory statement, this debate is to raise issues that many people have raised with me about the purpose of Clause 230, which covers licensing nuclear sites that are on or under the territorial sea of the UK.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, in talking about offshore wind farms, referred to the impact on marine mammals of seismic testing in particular. In the middle of last year we saw seismic surveys being carried out in the Irish Sea off Cumbria in order to assess the potential of undersea nuclear storage. At that time the Marine Management Organisation noted in a letter that those tests could cause disturbance to certain cetacean species. Those tests were carried out before this Bill became law. Those are interesting circumstances for them to be carried out in, which I will come back to.

In the Government’s own words, they need to keep the waste safe and secure for hundreds of thousands of years, give or take, for the radioactivity to decay. That is why they are seeking long-term storage for hundreds and thousands of years. The UK has the world’s largest stockpile of untreated nuclear waste, more than 100 tonnes of plutonium, and the total volume is 750,000 cubic metres. We are talking about a lot of nuclear waste. The chair of Nuclear Free Local Authorities, David Blackburn, who for full disclosure I will note is also the leader of the Green Party group on Leeds City Council, has said:

“The waste would be left in situ for millennia and, no matter how effective the barriers, some of the radioactivity will eventually reach the surface. The rate at which radioactivity would leak … can be poorly predicted and is likely to remain so for an indefinite period.”


I was in Cumbria a decade ago when there was talk of onshore storage of nuclear waste there and a great deal of local resistance. We are aware that there is no certainty. Putting it under the sea would seem to add to that uncertainty, to the risks and to the difficulties of dealing with anything should it go wrong. I put down this clause stand part debate because there is a great deal of uncertainty. People are unsure what the Government’s intentions are, which is why I hope the Minister may be able to provide more certainty.

I also refer to the fact that seismic testing was going on. The Explanatory Notes for the Bill appear to suggest that Clause 230 is actually to close a possible loophole that nuclear sites under the sea might not currently require a licence or be subject to the nuclear regulator. Page 71 of the Explanatory Notes states that:

“This clause amends section 1 and section 26 of the NIA 1965 and section 68 of the Energy Act 2013 … to make it expressly clear that certain nuclear sites located wholly or partly in or under the … sea … require a licence and are regulated by the Office for Nuclear Regulation”.


That raises a question that I will put explicitly to the Minister: are the Government aware OF or concerned about any unlicensed or unregulated nuclear sites on or partly on or underneath the sea in UK territorial waters?

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. When I first read this clause I assumed it was effectively to give permission to go out to sea from land, like some coal mines. I am interested to know whether that was the Government’s intention.

I was also quite interested that the site has to be partly in territorial waters. Territorial waters go out to 12 nautical miles, so that seems to suggests that it does not. I wonder why there is the stipulation that the site has to be partly in territorial waters. It seems to me that if this is done it really needs to be within territorial waters. I have no other questions.

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[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for the opportunity to debate and discuss Clause 230.

This clause relates to geological disposal facilities. We have spoken about this often in the Chamber during Questions. GDFs are highly engineered facilities capable of isolating and containing radioactive waste within multiple protective barriers deep underground, so that no harmful quantities of radioactivity ever reach the surface environment.

The Government consider a GDF to be essential to the successful decommissioning of the UK’s civil nuclear legacy and our new-build nuclear power programme which will support the UK Government’s net-zero ambitions and their energy security strategy. The process to find a site for a GDF is under way, and it is therefore vital that we have a clear legal framework to ensure that such a site will be licensed and subject to oversight by the Office for Nuclear Regulation—the ONR.

On the noble Baroness’s point about disturbance, there is no evidence that any disturbances were caused by the specific seismic studies undertaken on behalf of Nuclear Waste Services. We have not seen any, and none has been drawn to our attention, but if the noble Baroness has other information, obviously we would be very grateful if we could see it.

Clause 230 makes clear that certain nuclear sites, including a GDF once prescribed in regulations, located wholly or partly in or under the territorial sea adjacent to the UK require a licence and are regulated by the ONR. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I have no idea why it says “wholly or partly”; I take his point that it is a long way off to get to “partly in our territorial waters”. However, presumably that is a drafting necessity.

The GDF siting process is a consent-based approach which requires a willing community to be a partner in the project’s development. Four areas have entered the siting process: three areas in West Cumbria—in Copeland and Allerdale—and one in Theddlethorpe in Lincolnshire. This clause is intended to provide clarity to parties with an interest in the GDF process that a GDF in their community, whether located deep below the land surface or deep below the seabed, will be safe, secure and appropriately regulated by the ONR. I would like to be clear: no part of a GDF will be in the sea itself, nor will radioactive waste be dumped in the sea. That is banned by international conventions, including the London convention and protocol. Whether a GDF is built in the geological formations deep below the land surface or deep below the seabed, it will be accessed from facilities on land, and the waste will be isolated deep underground within multiple barriers to ensure no harmful quantities of radioactivity reach the surface environment.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions, I hope this has assured the noble Baroness of the Government’s intentions for this clause, and I hope she will feel able not to oppose that this clause stand part of the Bill.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I raised the question of whether the Government are aware of or concerned about any unlicensed, unregulated nuclear sites, which the Explanatory Memorandum seems to suggest might be a reason for this.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My officials say that that is not a concern to us. If we establish that it is otherwise, then of course we will let the Committee know.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I will start my remarks by talking about the amendments on a new net-zero duty on Ofgem. While the Government agree with their intent, we do not believe that they are necessary, because Ofgem already has a decarbonisation objective in law. The Energy Act 2010 amended the Gas Act 1986 and the Electricity Act 1989 to modify Ofgem’s principal objective—that is, protecting the interests of existing and future consumers, including their interests in the reduction of targeted greenhouse emissions. Ofgem agrees that its principal objective includes an obligation to support delivery of our net-zero targets, and it would be keen to avoid any confusion over the need to balance decarbonisation, affordability and security of supply. This will be supported by the upcoming strategy and policy statement setting out the Government’s priorities, including those that will help to deliver net zero as a guide for the regulator. As the noble Lord noted, the Government published the results of Chris Skidmore’s net zero review on 13 January, and we will carefully consider the recommendations proposed and respond to the review in the spring.

On the amendment to designate a strategy and policy statement for the purposes of the Bill, this replicates the provisions set out in the Energy Act 2013 so, again, we think that this is unnecessary.

Amendment 229, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, is on onshore wind. As the noble Baroness said, on 22 December the Government launched a consultation on making changes to the National Policy Planning Framework so that local authorities can have more flexibility to respond to their communities when they wish to host onshore wind infrastructure. On improving infrastructure to ensure access-to-grid connections for onshore wind, the Government are already making strides, publishing a comprehensive strategic framework for the electricity networks. As has been said, the Government included onshore wind in the latest contracts for difference round, where it played a key part in securing almost 1.5 gigawatts of power, including 900 megawatts of mainland projects.

On the annual reporting of onshore wind deployment, BEIS in fact already publishes quarterly and annual statistics for all renewable sources of electricity, including generation and capacity of onshore wind.

On Amendment 233, on decarbonising the capacity market, the most recent capacity market four-year-ahead auction was held in February 2022. There was a record investment in low-carbon flexible capacity; for example, it included more than 1 gigawatt of new-build battery storage. I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that the Government recognise the need to ensure that the design of the capacity market is aligned with the wider decarbonisation of the power sector. As he noted, the Government published a consultation on this on 9 January, aiming to consult on design changes to the capacity market. I assure him that the consultation proposes measures that support greater investment in low-carbon capacity, including demand-side management.

I turn to Amendment 239 from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, on energy from waste. The Government are committed to minimising waste; making better use of existing energy sources will play an important role in our journey to net zero. It is estimated that the total power exported by energy-from-waste plants in the UK in 2021 was approximately 2.9% of total net UK electricity generation. The Government have already made good progress in diverting waste away from landfill and maximising the energy that can be recovered from non-recyclable waste. Waste holders already have a legal duty to act in accordance with the waste hierarchy, which prioritises the prevention of waste arising in the first place, followed by preparing items for reuse and then recycling them. Only then should waste be sent for energy recovery, with only that which cannot otherwise be managed sent for disposal, including to landfill.

All energy-from-waste plants are largescale and, therefore, electricity. While some have private wire connections, most of the power is exported to the grid rather than locally. Therefore, it is not practical to ensure that all electricity produced from waste is used locally. However, of course, it is possible to ensure that heat produced from those waste plants is used locally, and there are some excellent examples of that, including a large plant in east London. The Government believe that our existing provisions in this Bill are sufficient to promote that heat and power source. We discussed that a couple of weeks ago, when we discussed heat network zoning, which will accelerate the deployment of heat networks provisions and ensure that waste heat sources connect to local heat networks and ensure greater use of waste heat sources, such as residual household waste.

Finally, on Amendments 241, 242B and 242H in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, we recently published our intent to allow the use of nuclear-derived fuels to receive support from government fuel support programmes—particularly a form of sustainable aviation fuel—but we do not support the wording of these amendments. We look forward to working together through the passage of this Bill to permit the support of nuclear-derived fuels while not categorising nuclear-derived fuels as “renewable”.

On Amendment 242B, the Government agree that nuclear should play a critical role in decarbonising the UK’s energy sector. However, accepting this amendment would pre-empt the outcome of the further work that is required in this area, which was announced in the WMS by the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, on 14 December. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Before the Minister sits down, will he acknowledge that this debate has been extraordinarily truncated and that this wide range of issues will need to be fully examined on Report?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sure that we will have lots to discuss about lots of issues on Report.

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[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I have a question for the Minister that follows on from that. I very much support the idea of an energy commission, although Chris Skidmore says very strongly in his report, on decarbonisation, that:

“None of this will happen without a step change in the government’s approach to delivering net zero.”


He says that an office for net-zero delivery within government is needed but, if we cannot get that, energy efficiency must be part of it.

When we were in the European Union and single market, part of energy efficiency was around appliances and all sorts of things that we use or do, and we have had an increase in energy efficiency—not fast enough, but a sectoral trend—largely because of the sorts of implements we use; cars, vacuum cleaners or whatever. I therefore ask the Minister: in terms of energy efficiency and standards for equipment and pieces of machinery, what is happening now? Is BEIS doing this itself? Does it have a programme? How does that relate to our export markets and manufacturing sector? I would be interested to understand.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, has presented very interesting proposals. Like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I think this offers us one way forward on the crucial issue of energy efficiency, but I have a question for the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. Would he agree that a useful role for the energy efficiency commission would be ensuring systems to educate people to install this new technology properly, so that people such as the plumber whom he cited had the information available to ensure that they knew that what they were installing would work for their customers?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, for his amendments. I will take up the question from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, first. The answer is absolutely; we have an extensive programme called the Energy Efficiency (Energy Using Products) Regulations. They are largely similar to those we had in the European Union, but we have extended them and taken them further. We have recent regulations on more efficient lighting and there are others coming, as well as some on the more popular white goods that people use. I would be happy to send him more details of that.

I move on to Amendment 234 from the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. The Government agree of course with the principle of having an independent body to advise on targets and timetables for energy efficiency policy and net-zero policy more broadly. But we already have that body: the Climate Change Committee fulfils that role. He will also be aware that the Government will announce further details about the energy efficiency task force that was announced by the Chancellor and the Business Secretary late last year. There is a lot of detailed work happening on that at the moment. We hope to have more to say very shortly.

On Amendment 235, the Government fully recognise the importance of energy storage and its ability to help us to use energy more flexibly and decarbonise our electricity system more cost-effectively. Our measure to define electricity storage provides long-term clarity and certainty over its treatment in regulatory frameworks. That will facilitate storage deployment going forward. At this stage, however, it is premature to set a target for the sector. We do not yet know the full extent of the system requirements for storage. Especially in the context of high energy bills and having to pay for increased storage, it would not be responsible to set storage target at this time, as we could set a target that is too high or too low and favour a more expensive technology over a relatively cheaper one. Instead, our approach is to remove barriers and spur innovation for all low-carbon flexibility technologies. We published the 2021 Smart Systems and Flexibility Plan with actions to facilitate the deployment of these technologies, including storage at all scales.

The Government are not in disagreement with the noble Lord, except on the narrow issue of targets. I hope he recognises our commitment to enabling the deployment of flexibility, including energy storage, across our energy system to even out fluctuations in generation and demand and therefore deliver the best outcomes, which we all want, for our consumers. Therefore, I hope that he will see fit to withdraw his amendment.

Electricity: Decarbonisation

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Lord said, we are supporting it. It has exciting potential, but it is in the very early stages at the moment. The designs are still being approved, but we will want to ensure that appropriate support is given to roll it out domestically—and then there is its tremendous export potential as well.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, given that it is Christmas, I—

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, on Monday in Grand Committee, on day 5 of the Energy Bill, the Minister said, in defence of the Government’s stonewalling of support for community energy, that these schemes rely on people subsidising uncompetitive forms of energy. That is rich, coming from a Government who, for example, have made communities pay more for their energy as a consequence of their seven-year ban on onshore wind, and are presiding over bizarre Ofgem connection policies that leave ready-to-go renewable installations unconnected for long periods.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 19th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, first, I declare my interests as a project director working in the energy industry for Atkins and as a director of Peers for the Planet. I will speak to Amendment 162 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, who cannot be here today.

To give some context to this amendment, I welcome paragraph 14(3) of Schedule 15, in that it provides for all the conditions which may be attached to a heat network authorisation. All of this is welcome—in particular, paragraph 14(3)(f) refers to

“conditions about limiting emissions of targeted greenhouse gases in relation to relevant heat networks”.

However, it is noteworthy that the schedule does not include any conditions about the actual heat source for the emissions, and that is what Amendment 162 focuses on. It is a probing amendment, seeking to determine whether the Secretary of State or Ofgem already have the power to control the heat source using the heat networks and whether they are minded to use them.

There are some fuels which it may be in the public interest to restrict using in a heat network. For example, the UK Government are currently establishing carefully controlled trials for hydrogen for heating. Presumably, the Government would not want to be powerless to prevent a heat network provider using green hydrogen for heating if they had concerns about, for example, safety or the cost effectiveness of hydrogen as a power source. If the hydrogen trials are not taken forward, the Government may not want someone to use hydrogen in a heat network without effective oversight from Ofgem.

In another example, it may be appropriate to restrict the use of biomass, which is ostensibly low or zero-carbon. However, the Minister will have heard concerns from the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, and other Peers last week, and there are concerns about whether the Government would have the powers to restrict biomass for local heat networks to the sustainable practices the Minister outlined in his response to that question. Can the Minister confirm in his summing up whether the Government have powers to restrict the source of heat input as applied to heat networks? If so, where? If not, would he consider taking these powers?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall speak chiefly to Amendment 162. tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, although I take the opportunity to welcome the government amendment on help for micro-businesses and say that it is great to see that happening. The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, has already introduced this very clearly; I shall make just one additional point and apologise to the Committee for my absence last week when a number of amendments that I had either tabled or supported were debated. I was in the Chamber with the genetic technology so-called precision breeding Bill. If we have two environment Bills running in exact parallel, it creates some difficulties. I particularly want to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for some excellent support for some of my amendments last week.

On Amendment 162, I want to make the point that it is crucial here that we are talking about local networks; what may be appropriate in one place may be inappropriate in another. I am thinking, for example, of areas where air pollution is an issue and the kind of fuel used will be a particular issue in that area. It may, indeed, be appropriate for the regulator to take action on the basis of local conditions as well as of national polities, in terms of either the nature crisis or the climate emergency.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords may have noticed that I extracted my amendments to the second group, when they were originally suggested to be tabled in this group. They relate to the protection of consumers.

I am grateful that the Minister emphasised protection, for both domestic and non-domestic consumers, of the commitments to district heating, decentralised energy and community energy. I am strongly in favour of that move, but I do not think the Bill, as first drafted, or as I read the amendments proposed in the Minister’s group, entirely meet the need to protect consumers of district heating et cetera to the same extent that consumers of other suppliers are protected. I was gratified by some of the Minister’s words this afternoon, but I still do not feel that this combination of what is in the Bill and the Minister’s own amendments will deliver for consumers of district heating the protections, that have been absent for so long, which are supplied via Ofgem to consumers of other forms of electricity supply. I think it will need a bit of tweaking and I shall come to that in the following group.

I do, however, want to register my appreciation for the role of decentralised energy being recognised here. We have some tidying up to do, but I welcome the Government’s commitment to extend support both for consumers in this sector and for the sector itself.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 168 in my name would put a duty on the Secretary of State to

“publish guidance for local authorities on local area energy planning”

and clarify some of the criteria that should be included in the guidance. This is based on Energy Systems Catapult’s guidance and includes how local area energy plans can contribute to meeting our net-zero environmental and adaption targets.

As I said on Amendment 167, local authorities will be crucial to delivering our net-zero targets, particularly on decarbonising heat from buildings, yet the Energy Bill makes only limited reference to the vital role of local authorities in heat networks. That is a particular gap in relation to local area energy planning, which is not mentioned in the Bill, and I do not believe the Government have made a firm commitment to create this mechanism.

The Government should ensure that local authorities are given powers and mechanisms to enable local area energy planning, which is a whole-system approach and methodology to discover the locally preferred and most cost-effective means to decarbonise local transport of heat in any given place. Ofgem commissioned the Centre for Sustainable Energy and Energy Systems Catapult to develop the local area energy planning methodology and, under the pilot, local area energy plans were prepared in three areas—Newcastle, Bridgend and Bury in Manchester. Other local authorities are also in the process of developing plans, but these are piecemeal, often without funding and are taking too long.

It is worth giving a bit of context around the pilots. They divided each area into zones suitable for different types of low-carbon heating technologies. The balance of technologies across the three areas shows how different each area can be. For example, the local area energy plan in Newcastle found that roughly half the homes could be heated by a heat network, whereas it was less than 30% in Bury and only 15% in Bridgend. In Bridgend, a far higher proportion of homes would need to be heated with high-temperature heat pumps to save on the extra expense of retrofitting insulation in its poorer-quality housing stock. That illustrates how different areas can be and the benefits of this local area energy planning approach.

As I have said, local authorities have the best view of their local areas and the state of their housing stock. A joined-up, co-ordinated approach to local area energy planning, led by government and providing local authorities with the support they need could, according to the Energy Systems Catapult, save £252 billion between 2025 and 2050 compared with organic, unco-ordinated approaches to energy planning. There is real value in such an approach.

In its independent review of the heat and buildings strategy, the Climate Change Committee said that local area energy planning,

“If done well … will ensure a coordinated approach for rolling out different low-carbon heating solutions in different areas.”


It also said that,

“The government acknowledges the value of Local Area Energy Planning … but is yet to bring forwards strong policy proposals that would set a direction here.”


This is a real opportunity. My amendment is really to explore what plans the Government have to develop the institutional framework to empower and fund local authorities to roll out these plans.

As a final note, I originally considered tabling an amendment that puts a duty on local authorities to prepare a local area energy plan, but we were advised by the LGA that mandating this would be very daunting for some local authorities that may be unable to achieve this without committed government funding and support. I would be grateful if the Minister could expand on the Government’s plans to develop local area energy plans in the future. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. I declare my position as a vice-president of the Local Government Association in offering my support for his Amendment 168, which I would have signed had I seen it. He has clearly set out the arguments for this. I just add that this would be a significant step forward for energy democracy, with decisions not being centralised in Westminster but made in local areas, by local people.

I think back to an event I attended with Gina Dowding, who was then the MEP for North West England, which dates the event rather precisely. There was work going on by a wide range of organisations in the north-west, looking at renewables across the region. With this kind of plan, different local authorities would be able to band together in different ways, according to what worked for the geography and the energy supply systems. That would be a flexible and effective way of doing that.

I have one more point to make on Amendment 168. Last month I was in Kyiv, talking to energy managers who had suffered as much of a shock as one could possibly imagine any energy manager having to receive, which was half of their systems being destroyed by vicious Russian attacks directed by people who had actually built the systems, so knew exactly where to hit hardest and worst. The Ukrainians were holding their system together, and one of the things they stressed to me was the importance of decentralised, local systems that were holding up and helping to support the national system because the local system was able to function effectively. So, we know we are in the age of shocks and, in terms of resilience, having that local basis is crucial.

That brings me on to my Amendments 237 and 238, which together form an attempt to deliver the potential of something that we saw flowering a decade ago but was then cut off in its prime, and that is community energy schemes, where community groups come together to provide cheaper, greener power and to distribute the benefits locally. The Government have made us all very familiar with the phrase “world-leading”, but I am afraid that when it comes to community energy, it really is impossible for the Government to claim any kind of leadership in clean, home-produced energy schemes at a local level. What we saw a decade ago was a real explosion of community-owned and run renewable energy generation projects that were driven by the feed-in tariff. Indeed, I recall visiting Berwick solar farm in Sussex with the sadly late Keith Taylor, then MEP for South East England, in 2015. They said, “This is now dead. This has been killed”, by the cutting of the feed-in tariff, which of course entirely disappeared in 2019.

These two amendments reflect what is contained within the Local Electricity Bill, started in the other place. That has the backing of 314 MPs from all the major parties and aims to help community groups sell the electricity they generate to local customers. That Bill is also supported by more than 100 principal authority councils and more than 80 national organisations, including the National Trust, WWF, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and CPRE. These two amendments offer a chance to take that Bill forward; this is the obvious opportunity to act now. Noble Lords will note that both amendments have been kindly backed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Boycott and Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, so it has full cross-party and indeed non-party support, and I believe we will also be hearing other noble Lords speaking in support.

Similar Amendments, Amendments 242F and 242G have, been tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds. I have a list setting out the differences, but in the interests of time, I will leave it to those noble Lords to set out the details of how they differ. They are very much differences of detail, rather than of the main content and intent. The Environmental Audit Committee has looked into community energy and it says that the sector could grow between 12 and 20 times by 2030, powering 2.2 million homes and saving 2.5 million tonnes of CO₂ emissions every year. That could take community renewable energy generation to 10% of the UK’s electricity generation, around 6,000 megawatts. At the moment, however, it is less than 0.5% of total UK electricity generation capacity: 331 megawatts in 2021. It is not, of course, because of the cost of generating, which has fallen very rapidly over the past decade, but is due to insurmountable costs in selling the electricity they generate and providing the operational requirements to become a licensed energy supplier. Initial costs are put at £1 million, which of course is far beyond the scale of most community energy projects.

To make it worse, community energy schemes receive no guaranteed price certainty for the electricity they generate. They knew what they were going to get under the feed-in tariff, but that scheme closed to new applicants in April 2019, at which point many schemes that were already on the drawing board and well advanced just fell apart. It is not that the Government have not been trying to encourage community energy—that is clearly their intention. There was the Licence Lite scheme route to market, but it did not put reasonable limits on costs and there was no obligation on fully licensed energy utilities to partner with community groups. More recently, we saw the smart export guarantee. That also places a requirement on larger suppliers to purchase the power, but with no guaranteed purchase price or length of contract, again making the lack of certainty killing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Before the Minister sits down, can he tell me—either now or in writing later—what is the Government’s estimate of the amount of local community energy generation that would be arrived at by 2030 under the market-led approach?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to give the noble Baroness a detailed answer in writing but we do not see any particular limit on it. It is what the market will develop. The problem with the noble Baroness’s amendment is that she is seeking, in effect, to get every other customer to subsidise a relatively uncompetitive form of energy production. If community energy schemes are low-carbon and competitive, they will be able to take their place in the generation mix. Many of these community energy schemes are already supported and will continue to be.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are keen on these schemes but, as always, the question comes down to cost. How much we are prepared to subsidise an essentially uncompetitive scheme that is leveraged on the bills of everyone else who is not benefiting from these schemes? That is the fundamental question. I am of course happy to write with the clarification that the noble Baroness asks for.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I am sorry but I really have to come back on that. Does the Minister acknowledge that there are advantages to these schemes other than on cost? They include, for example, insulation, bringing communities together and increasing acceptance and understanding of net zero, as many noble Lords have outlined.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

If the noble Baroness is asking me whether I think that there is an advantage to insulation schemes, the answer is of course yes. I am not sure what her question is, but insulation is a great thing.

--- Later in debate ---

Improving the energy efficiency of the housing stock in this country is absolutely critical and will, as our colleagues in many other European countries have already recognised, play a major part in dealing with the current energy and economic crises. Having targets in legislation is a crucial component of ensuring that we can move forward in doing that; I hope that, on this occasion, the Minister will, on what I think is his seventh chance, take the opportunity to agree with me.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow that tour de force from the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, who is your Lordships’ House’s acknowledged expert in this area. I will add just a couple of small points to what he said. In case anyone is wondering, all those withdrawn amendments to the noble Lord’s original amendments were me saying, “Please, Government, can we have some more?”, because that is the Greens’ role in life.

The arguments just presented by the noble Lord for the Government putting their own existing targets into the Bill are overwhelming. I would be very happy to come behind his amendment on Report, if needed, although I should note that I will also be speaking in favour of Amendment 192, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. It has full cross-party support, including from the Conservative noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, so there was no space for my name.

I shall make just a couple of points and point to a couple of sets of stats that I think are quite useful here. One is a study by Friends of the Earth, which found that nearly 9,000 neighbourhoods in England and Wales—just over a quarter of all neighbourhoods—have less-than-average incomes but higher-than-average energy bills. This picks up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, that EPCs take us only so far and can be misleading. It is looking at actual energy figures that really shows us where some of the greatest need lies. These neighbourhoods are occupied by 15 million people. Although it is not explicitly written into Amendment 192, it could be in the strategy to target help at those who need it most and fastest. We could make that a priority area, which would certainly seem to be a logical part of an energy strategy and, again, very much in line with the Government’s levelling-up agenda.

One other point to make is that we tend to feel that we have done all the easy stuff and now we have to think about ground source heat pumps and high levels of insulation. We still have an estimated 4.4 million homes in England that do not have cavity wall insulation but could have it, and 4.8 million homes without the absolute basic of loft insulation. There is a lot of basic stuff to be done.

Coming back to Amendment 192, I will spare the Minister another debate on video advertising screens but it is worth stressing—I see this in my social media feeds all the time—that we are now subsidising business energy use. Surely the Government want to cut government spending as much as possible. It may not be the biggest scandal in the world but, boy, it annoys people to regularly drive past an unoccupied building site and see it, or unoccupied or barely occupied office buildings, lit up like a Christmas tree 24 hours a day—and we are all paying for it. Surely this is something that the Government would want to tackle in an energy strategy to make sure that we are not subsidising unnecessary energy use.

I probably will not make myself very popular with the Government by saying this, but I want to point to a report, which came out at the weekend, by Another Europe Is Possible and the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, a well-respected group in Germany. The report points out that the EU already has a much higher rate of home energy efficiency measures, so is starting from a much better base, and is aiming to double its annual rate of renovation and reduction in energy use over the next eight years to 2030. If the EU can do it, why can we not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The power in the amendment would replace the repealed power in the European Communities Act 1972, which I presume was repealed after Brexit, or rather the end of the implementation period.

The changes are aimed at encouraging businesses to take action on recommendations to increase their energy and carbon savings. The benefits to existing participating businesses are estimated to be savings of £1.12 billion from 2023 to 2037 through reduced energy bills. The savings would of course help to support businesses to keep the costs of their products and services affordable for consumers.

Amendments 200 to 202 outline some of the details of the ESOS regime and associated powers to make regulations. They include provisions regarding which undertakings ESOS should apply to; provisions regarding when, how and by whom an ESOS assessment should be carried out; and ESOS assessor functions and requirements.

Amendment 203 enables regulations to introduce a requirement for ESOS participants to publish an ESOS action plan covering intended actions to reduce energy use or greenhouse gas emissions. This requirement aims to increase participants’ engagement with ESOS and stimulate greater uptake of energy efficiency measures. Amendment 204 enables regulations to impose requirements for ESOS participants to take actions that directly or indirectly support the reduction of energy use or greenhouse gas emissions.

Amendments 205 to 207, 209 and 210 concern the administration and enforcement of the scheme. They enable regulations to make provisions about the appointment of scheme administrators and their functions, including compliance monitoring and enforcement, provisions on penalties and offences, and rights of appeal. These amendments also enable the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance and to give directions to a scheme administrator, with which it must comply.

Amendment 208 concerns procedures for making regulations. It requires the Secretary of State to consult appropriate persons considered likely to be affected by the regulations and, where provisions relate to devolved matters, the respective devolved Administrations. It describes where affirmative procedure would be required, for example if extending ESOS to smaller businesses, mandating action by ESOS participants or creating offences.

Amendments 211 and 243 define certain terms used in the ESOS provisions, explain where provisions fall within devolved competence and set out the extent of the ESOS provisions to be England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Amendments 244 and 246 clarify when the amendments will come into force. Amendment 247 inserts into the Title of the Bill a reference to the new clauses on ESOS, introduced by Amendments 199 to 211. With that, I beg to move Amendment 199 in my name.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, given the hour I will ask one very simple and direct question on government Amendment 210, which is about financial assistance. The second part of it says:

“‘Financial assistance’ means grants, loans, guarantees or indemnities, or any other kind of financial assistance”.


Can the Minister give us any indication of what the Government’s intentions are here? That is a very broad range and we know, for example, how wrong loans have gone in the past and how schemes based on loans have really not worked out. Given what interest rates are now, that is obviously a challenge. To tackle the kind of issues I raised earlier about the most disadvantaged areas having particular problems with the quality of housing, do the Government intend to look towards grant-type schemes?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The clause enables the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to scheme administrators and ESOS participants. It does not, of course, compel us to do so but we are taking a power to have that option. If we decide to provide financial assistance, I will inform the House accordingly.

Energy Security

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. He takes a close interest in this issue, having been Secretary of State for Energy in the past. He makes a very good point about the importance of interconnectors. They will clearly play a key role in balancing supplies across Europe, particularly as we have more and more intermittent renewables both in this country and in other parts of Europe. Of course, there are interconnectors linking us with Ireland, as well as with France, the Netherlands, Belgium, et cetera. They clearly will have an increased role to play. I forget the exact figure, but in the energy security strategy we set out that we wanted to expand the number of interconnectors that are available because of the important role that they will have.

I cannot give the noble Lord an exact date for when Sizewell C will be commissioned; these large nuclear projects have a somewhat chequered history. This is a tried and proven design, but it clearly will be a number of years before this comes on stream; it will, however, still be valuable and still be needed. In fact, if we had disregarded the advice of the former leader of the Liberal Democrats in 2010 in his famous video, we would indeed now be having new nuclear coming on stream to help us in the energy crisis that we have at the moment. SMRs, of course, will also play an important role, but they are still being developed and designs are still being improved, so, again, it will be a few years before they come on stream.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, my question is also on Sizewell C and nuclear. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the Liberal Democrats do not need me to defend them, but none the less I will quote the CEO of the National Grid in 2015. He said:

“The idea of large power stations for baseload is outdated”.


Perhaps the Minister needs to update his assumptions in that regard.

However, I will continue on from the question that was just asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, because the Minister was asked when Sizewell C would come on line and he declined to give an answer to that. Surely, the Government must have both a medium estimate and a worst-case estimate—for the enormous amount of money that they are spending—of when it is actually going to be working. I will therefore put that question again to the Minister.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I disagree fundamentally with the noble Baroness. Sizewell C is an important investment. It is still at the planning stage at the moment. We will secure the funding for it and we will bring it on stream as quickly as we possibly can.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will know, from his history of looking at infrastructure projects, that I cannot give definitive answers to those questions. We have announced the funding of Sizewell. Discussions are under way with operators for additional nuclear plants. I will be sure to let the House know when we have secured those investments and when we can make decisions on them.

It is difficult to answer the noble Lord’s question on onshore wind: it will make a contribution. Clearly, individual turbines make a relatively small contribution, but when they are scaled up, it can be quite large. Again, it is intermittent generation, but they will make a contribution, particularly in local areas. We want more wind; we want more solar; we want more hydro; we want more geothermal: the whole idea is to provide a diverse mix of energy sources.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I turn to another issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan: that of energy conservation. The Statement says:

“The days of wasting energy are over.”


I am sure that is something we would all like to see, but the Minister may recall that a couple of days ago, he answered a Written Question from me on the issue of digital advertising screens and neon shop signs, which France, Spain and, in a slightly different way, Germany, have all taken action on to see them switched off during the energy crisis to reduce energy demand and reduce the risk of blackouts. In answering me, the Minister said that the Government had no data on the impact of these. If he wants to see one for himself, he might like to wander up to Tottenham Court Road station, where there is a four-storey high screen billed as

“the largest LED canvas in Europe”,

which blazes out advertising 24 hours a day, I believe. Surely that could be switched off to save energy. Will the Government look at this issue again?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do recall the Question from the noble Baroness. We do not have precise data on how many digital advertising screens there are in the country and what energy they might be using. I do not think we want to get into micromanaging people’s energy consumption to that extent. We do not want the whole country to be in darkness, and there will be some important display screens that provide key information for people—so getting into heavy-handed government dictating to companies when they can switch their advertising screens on or off might be a policy beloved of the top-down, controlling Greens, but I do not think it is a practical solution.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I think I said in response to the noble Baroness’s earlier question that I welcome this fantastic project and wish the developers well in producing it, particularly as I believe that it can be built without taxpayer support, so we should welcome it even more—and of course we will do everything we can to support such a fantastic achievement. If it can be built, it will produce a very useful contribution to the UK’s energy security.

I have to disagree with the noble Baroness, who does not think a target of 15% by 2030 is enough. I can assure her, looking at the analysis of it, that it is an extremely ambitious target. It will require a huge amount of resource to be put into the sector, both public and private, in order to achieve such a target—but if you do not reach for the stars you will never make it, and it is important that we set an ambitious target. We will do all we can to achieve it.

I said in my initial answer that we are spending £6.6 billion on energy efficiency schemes in this Parliament; the Chancellor committed another £6 billion for 2025 to 2028. We are also consulting on the £1 billion ECO+ scheme. We are doing an awful lot in the energy efficiency space and the answer will actually not be in total cash resources, but in the building up of the supply chain, which is constrained in many aspects at the moment. That is what is providing me with food for thought: to make sure that we actually have the resources on the ground, in terms of materials and personnel, to implement all these ambitious schemes.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite referred to hydrogen and its importance as a method of storing renewable energy when an excess is available from wind and solar et cetera. I do not know whether the Minister saw a really interesting study out this week on direct reduction furnaces and how if emission allowances are gradually reduced, producing steel with green hydrogen would be 15% cheaper than producing it with coal using carbon capture and storage. What are the Government doing to encourage, support and put into operation the creation of green steel in the UK, given that it is already happening in Germany and has been for a couple of years?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are looking at a lot of ways of supporting the steel sector—we think that it is a very important sector in the UK. I would question the noble Baroness’s figures. If we wanted to produce steel completely with hydrogen, it would require enormous investment. I know that a number of interesting research projects are going on, but I do not think that they are particularly well established in other countries yet either. However, there are exciting prospects, and we should do all we can to support them.

I agree with the noble Baroness that one way of using so-called excess power from the likes of wind farms that produce lots of power perhaps at times when it cannot be used will potentially be in producing hydrogen. However, hydrogen is a relatively inefficient way of storing power; it is much more effective if we can use the power when it is produced. If we use a unit of electricity to produce hydrogen and then, for instance, use it for heating, we lose 60% of the energy value of that unit of electricity in converting and storing hydrogen. It is a very difficult gas to compress, to transport, to store, and then to use. It is not necessarily an efficient way, but it could be a way of storing excess electricity production if it cannot be used—that gets us back into the question that we discussed earlier of expanding the grid et cetera.

There are lots of solutions and lots of potential technologies that we could use. As I said, our strategy is to explore as many of them as possible so that we are not putting all our eggs in one basket. We have a diverse energy mix; it will take many years to roll out, but that in my view is the future of energy supply in this country.

COP 27: Commitments

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for securing this debate and welcome the noble Lord, Lord Leong, to this place; I very much enjoyed his speech. It is also a great pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Sheehan. The figures the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, has just set out and the commitment she asked for if the UK is to claim any form of leadership require that those subsidies end now. That is a statement of the absolutely obvious.

However, today we are focused on COP 27. At the start of COP 27, there were many reasons to be concerned about what might happen. One of the more minor factors, but rather telling, was that especially for the occasion, the Tonino Lamborghini Convention Centre had been renamed the International Convention Centre for the length of COP 27, which perhaps left a loud throaty echo in the background.

There were 35,000 delegates at COP 27. Of those, more than 600 were oil and fossil fuel industry lobbyists—more than had ever attended a previous COP. There were more lobbyists from the oil and gas industries than from the 10 countries most affected by the climate emergency.

I want to draw on the interesting work of Alix Dietzel, senior lecturer in climate justice at the University of Bristol, who analysed last year’s COP. Men spoke 76% of the time, indigenous communities faced language barriers and racism, and significant numbers of those who could not obtain visas to get into the UK were excluded. I was also at COP 26, just as I have been at a number of previous COPs, and saw for myself how difficult it was for those crucial voices to be heard. But Dr Dietzel was again at COP 27 and found that Africa’s COP was even worse: the high prices, the surveillance concerns, the fears of Egypt’s police state and the extreme pressures on civil society all had an impact.

None the less, when I look back to COP 26, my most memorable recollection is a speech by Jumas Xipaia, from the Xipaya people in the Pará state in Brazil, at an event I chaired on ecocide. That was such a powerful voice that it moved everyone in the room. Voices such as that, which I have often called the “shadow COP”—not the official negotiations, but the gathering of civil society, people, campaigners and indigenous groups from around the world—have an enormous impact. I will come back to that.

An account in the London Review of Books by Laleh Khalili is well worth a read. Wandering around the pavilions she sees PwC, Deloitte and EY—representatives of the financial system that is built on and continues to fund the ongoing oil and gas exploration and exploitation that the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, referred to. She also noted the presence of Agip, ExxonMobil, Shell, Chevron and Total. Will the Minister make a commitment? Will the UK agree to push at future COPs to exclude oil and gas lobbyists, just as big tobacco lobbyists are excluded from WHO deliberations on tobacco control? The model is there.

That point is particularly interesting because the next COP will be in the UAE. Your Lordships’ House has just debated the World Cup in Qatar, which has some similar parallels. We have heard how the UK has been lobbying for respect for human rights and an open voice for civil society. Will the Minister commit the UK to pushing the UAE to have as open a COP as it should be?

I have been a bit depressing up until now, so I will get more cheerful. Despite all those barriers and difficulties, there was powerful evidence at COP 27 that campaigning works, although not that it is always very quick. For 31 years there have been calls, pushes and work on getting loss and damage payments—what is, in effect, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, said, the polluter pays principle put into action. Finally, it was delivered, or at least started. There is still a huge way to go, but this was a big win for climate justice and, I would posit, a win for something much further. It is a win for the whole issue of reparations and the damage being done by robbing the global south of wealth and resources and the labours of its people to enrich the global north. A principle has now been set. What plans do the Government have to work with others—the G77 plus China and civil society groups—to deliver on loss and damage?

I apologise for now going back to being depressing. Noble Lords may not know that there is one country in the world that is on the path to deliver the 1.5 degrees that the world agreed to at COP in Paris: Gambia. Well done, Gambia. That does not, of course, cover the UK. The practical reality is that talking about net zero by 2050 and all that the Government plan is just kicking climate action down the road. We cannot afford to do that. What the UK has to do is to commit to net zero by 2030. That is the figure that is in line with 1.5 degrees. It should be put out loudly and clearly that that should be our contribution. I do not expect the Minister to commit to that today, but you never know; I will put it on the table, at least.

It is worth looking at the words of Mary Robinson, chair of the Elders, a group of former world leaders, and a very respected, clear voice. She says that

“the world remains on the brink of climate catastrophe … Progress made on [cutting emissions] has been too slow. We are on the cusp of a clean energy world, but only if G20 leaders live up to their responsibilities, keep their word, and strengthen their will. The onus is on them.”

As we stand in your Lordships’ Chamber today, it is clear that the onus is on the UK Government.

I want to point to some positive things and have questions for the Minister. If he is not able to answer them now, perhaps he could write to me. We have seen agonisingly slow but significant progress in just energy transition partnerships, with South Africa at COP 26 and with Indonesia at COP 27. Can the Minister tell me what accelerated progress is expected and what the UK is doing to contribute to more and much broader ways in which we can deliver essential development for the global South with the support of the global North?

I come back, finally, to the point that I made about the shadow COP, and the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, about hope and optimism. It is worth noting that, as is often the case, one of the best events at COP 27 was the people’s plenary. During that event, the participants drew attention to the continuing incarceration, as I speak, of Alaa Abd el-Fattah. They chanted, “Free Alaa!”, and chanted his watchword, “We have not been defeated”.

The message that comes from COP 27 is the one that comes from all COPs: that we have a huge societal determination to stop trashing this planet as we are doing now, while also delivering a society that works for all the people on this planet. We have to change COPs and change our politics, and we have to change our society. The slogan that I have chanted on many a street is, “System change, not climate change”. COP is part of this process, but only a small part of it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I join other Members in paying tribute to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for bringing forward this debate on the commitments made at COP 27. It has been excellent, and I will endeavour to address as many of the points made as possible.

Before that, I join the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and others in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Leong, on his superb maiden speech. In welcoming him to this place, we can reflect on his excellent business career at home and internationally. We recognise his success in establishing Cavendish Publishing, which went on to become one of the country’s biggest academic law publishers. We also recognise his work in social enterprise and establishing networks such as the Mulan Foundation Network and Future First, all of which work to promote social inclusion and raise awareness of the various issues that he described. I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole House in saying that we very much look forward to hearing all his contributions in the future. My only regret is that his excellent business entrepreneurial career obviously has not made him a Conservative, which it surely ought to have.

I was also delighted to hear the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. Again, I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole House in saying how delighted we are to see him back in his place. We can all pay tribute to the enormous contribution that he has made to this important policy area throughout his long and distinguished career.

I also place on record my thanks to the COP unit, and all the other departments in government involved in representing the UK on the global stage, for all their work in representing us at COP and demonstrating the UK’s commitment to keeping 1.5 degrees alive.

Given the broad range of questions raised by noble Lords, I will address them in two halves. I will first address questions regarding COP 27 and then follow that up with some comments on the domestic points raised.

Let me start by disagreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, and, unusually, agreeing with the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, in saying that COPs matter. They have the convening power of world leaders to make agreements, they bring forward voices from across the world, and they help to put climate at the top of the news agenda. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, suggested that there were perhaps unrealistic expectations for a single event to cover all sectors, and I think that she is right; perhaps placing too much hope on a single instrument is indeed not sustainable. However, as she also reminded us, work is also going on outside this space; to take one example, the UK has signed up to the global methane pledge at COP 26, we published the UK’s methane memorandum, and the COP 27 cover decision reiterates an invitation to parties to consider further actions to reduce by 2030 non-carbon dioxide greenhouse gas emissions, including methane.

The UK continued to show global leadership through its COP 26 presidency in Glasgow. As the House will be aware, all 197 parties agreed to the Glasgow climate pact to urgently keep 1.5 degrees centigrade alive, and to finalise the outstanding elements of the Paris rulebook. When we began our COP presidency, just one-third of the global economy was covered by net-zero commitments. Today it is 90%, with 34 new or updated NDCs submitted since COP 26, including the UK and countries such as Australia, India, the UAE and Indonesia.

This represents progress towards implementing the Glasgow climate pact and helps to keep 1.5 degrees centigrade within reach, and these have all been core objectives of the delivery of our presidency year. At COP 27, as has been noted, we had to fight to keep 1.5 degrees centigrade alive, and obviously we were disappointed not to make progress on fossil fuels. The deal in Egypt preserves the historic commitment that countries agreed to last year in the Glasgow climate pact, but we did not make progress. However, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, both reminded us, 1.5 degrees centigrade remains on life support. It is clear that we need to see much more progress ahead of COP 28 in the UAE, and this Government will certainly be working towards that.

Now, as raised by many Members of the House, including again by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, action on loss and damage matters, and it is not something that developing countries can solve themselves. Crucially, COP 27 saw a breakthrough on funding arrangements for loss and damage, with an agreement that a fund will be created to support the most vulnerable. This deal responds to the concerted calls from the poorest and most vulnerable countries.

In response to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I can assure the House that the Government will continue to work with other countries on the details and design of the fund and wider funding arrangements. These will be worked up next year through a transitional committee. A range of sources and contributors are to be considered, with parties affirming that funding for loss and damage comes from humanitarian development and climate communities. The UK would assess the value of providing a contribution once the modalities of the fund have been agreed. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Desai, for his question about the level of funding for the new loss and damage fund but reiterate yet again that no level of the fund has yet been agreed.

We all know that we must continue to support climate-vulnerable countries—a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord St John—by making sure that these commitments on adaptation and loss and damage are honoured, driving real, practical action on the ground. A key part of making progress has been to ensure that the views of those at the front of tackling climate change are part of these crucial conversations. This was something that the noble Lord, Lord Leong, raised—the importance of youth in climate. This was also a view held by the COP presidency, which supported indigenous youth attending COP 27, and the Climate Youth Negotiators Programme helped young negotiators from the global south across those climate change negotiations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, also raised the issue of the exclusion of some voices within COP and fears about the limits on civil society. We expect that the discussion of lobbyists will have new momentum behind it. The UK’s priority, as always, is on ensuring that the voices of important non-party stakeholders such as indigenous people, women and young people are heard in addressing and responding to the important issue of climate change. At COP 26, the UK was pleased to fully fund an indigenous people’s pavilion, which proved to be an important space for indigenous-led events. The Glasgow climate pact also saw strengthened language on the role of indigenous peoples. During our presidency year, we worked closely with Egypt to stress the important role played by indigenous peoples and young people in civil society in calling for higher levels of ambition.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, raised the important human rights case of Alaa Abd el-Fattah. The UK Government remain deeply concerned about this case, and we continue to work hard to secure his release. We continue to raise his case at the highest levels of the Egyptian Government. The Prime Minister raised the case with Egyptian President Sisi, and COP 26 president Alok Sharma followed up with Egyptian Foreign Minister Shoukry. We continue to use all channels to raise the gentleman’s case with the Egyptian authorities.

COP 27 was hailed as an implementation COP. As the outgoing presidency, we were clear that targets needed to be underpinned by real progress on the ground. At COP 27, the UK presidency demonstrated that the UK is once again leading global efforts and decarbonising faster than any other G7 country. As the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, raised, the UK led, with other world leaders, the launch of the Forests and Climate Leaders’ Partnership to accelerate momentum to halt and reverse forest loss and land degradation by 2030.

Although I accept the point raised by my noble friend Lord Howell and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, about coal and fossil fuel phase-out not being included in the cover decision, I remind the House that we have made progress. We have accelerated the clean energy transition, maximising the implementation of and opportunities from commitments made at COP 26. The pipeline of new coal power projects has continued to collapse, with 76% of planned projects cancelled since 2015. Countries have delivered robust policies on financing fossil fuels. We have announced over £65 million of investment to help speed up the development of new green technologies; that funding is much needed, and it responds to the point made by my noble friend Lord Howell.

The breakthrough agenda launched at COP 26 will have tangible actions taken forward by countries accounting for over 50% of global GDP. One of these will be creating standards for green steel, which I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will be delighted to hear. The noble Lord, Lord Leong, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, both discussed the important issue of green jobs. Again, here the breakthrough agenda will make clean technology affordable, available and accessible to all, and in so doing create millions of those important green jobs worldwide. The noble Lord, Lord St John, raised the need to address emissions from buildings—something close to my own heart. We are delighted that France and the Kingdom of Morocco are planning on launching a buildings breakthrough under the breakthrough agenda to help address this.

Of course, none of these actions will be possible without mobilising climate finance. We continue to work with countries, international financial institutions and private financial institutions to meet the commitments they have made and help secure greater access to finance. The Prime Minister announced at the world leaders summit that the United Kingdom is delivering on our commitment of £11.6 billion of finance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, also raised the issue of the slow progress on energy transition projects. We were delighted to see strong progress with South Africa, which presented its just energy transition partnership investment plan at COP 27. The new Indonesian transition plan was also launched at the G20 in Bali, and that will mobilise $20 billion over the next three to five years. The UK once again continues to lead, and there are EU efforts towards a similar agreement with Vietnam.

I turn now to some of the points raised about our domestic policy, starting with those of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, the noble Lord, Lord Birt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. I can say that the Government remain committed to nuclear energy as a key part of our energy security strategy, providing the baseload energy which many noble Lords talked about and which is required to keep the lights on, even when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing. In last week’s Autumn Statement, the Government announced that we will proceed with the new plans at Sizewell C. With respect to the enormous potential of solar energy, including from countries such as Morocco, I can confirm that we have had early-stage discussions with the Xlinks interconnection project.

We continue to be grateful to the Climate Change Committee for its analyses. It has agreed that our net-zero strategy and the British energy security strategy represent comprehensive and viable plans for reaching our world-leading 2050 net-zero target. To answer the questions on climate adaptation raised by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Lord, Lord St John, the Government accept the Climate Change Committee’s view that more action is needed to improve the UK’s resilience to climate change, and Defra is currently working across government to develop a third national adaptation programme which we expect to be published in summer next year.

To address my noble friend Lord Howell’s question on the importance of technology and carbon capture to reduce emissions—which was also echoed by the noble Lord, Lord St John—we are committed to this domestically, and we announced the phase 2 shortlist for CCUS in August. We will use our strengths as an innovative nation and the net-zero strategy committed at least £1.5 billion-worth of funding to support net-zero innovation between 2022 and 2025. Internationally, I note the announcement of £65 million-worth of support to the Clean Energy Innovation Facility to accelerate a deployment of clean technology globally. The Government will of course continue to look carefully at the full range of technologies available to meet our net-zero targets, and we will carefully consider the points about tidal power raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.

On the issues raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lord, Lord Birt—I expected nothing else from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman—the Government recognise the importance of onshore wind to our energy mix. As one of the cheapest sources of electricity generation, we will undoubtedly need more of it. However, the Government understand the strength of feeling that some people have about the impact of wind turbines in England—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Birt—so we will consider all options for increasing deployments in Wales that local communities will support.

In response to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, on the issue of the proposed Cumbria coal mine, I am sure that she will understand that I cannot comment since a government decision is due in a couple of weeks. However, I stress that our net-zero strategy makes it clear that we are phasing coal out from our electricity mix by 2024.

On fossil-fuel subsidies, the UK supports international efforts to reform inefficient fossil fuel subsidies and to promote greater transparency. Moreover, in response to points made on fossil fuels by my noble friend Lord Howell and others, no other major oil and gas-producing nation has gone as far as the UK has in addressing the role of oil and gas in their economy. Our signal on the withdrawal of international fossil fuels, our transformation of the North Sea transition deal and our new checkpoint for licensing all provide a global example of the shift away from hydrocarbons. The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, will know that the point I continue to make is that it makes much more sense to gain gas as a transition fuel, which we will continue to acquire from our own resources, rather than importing carbon-heavy liquid LNG on tankers from across the world.

To answer the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, our 2050 net-zero target was considered in line with advice from the Climate Change Committee as the earliest feasible date for achieving net-zero emissions.

On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, about the Procurement Bill, your Lordships will be aware that the national procurement policy statement covers climate change and will be put on a statutory footing in that legislation.

In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, we are introducing three environmental land management schemes that will help reward farmers for delivering public goods.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, talked about EV infrastructure. The Government have committed £2.5 billion of funding towards electrical vehicle transmission since 2020, over £1.6 billion of which will be used to support charging infrastructure. I quite understand the noble Lord’s frustration that it is not always available in the places where we would want it immediately, but we are making progress.

On home insulation, reduction in energy demand is obviously a national effort. That is why the Government have announced a new long-term ambition, which noble Lords will have seen from the Chancellor’s Statement, to reduce the UK’s final energy consumption from buildings and industry by 15% by 2030 against 2021 levels. We have also announced the establishment of Energy Efficiency Taskforce.

To address the question from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, on the judicial review ruling: we of course accept the court’s judgment on the levels of detail provided and will respond in due course.

In answer to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, on the net-zero strategy, it remains government policy and has indeed not been quashed.

As I have set out today, the Glasgow climate pact remains the blueprint for accelerating climate action in the critical decade to keep 1.5 degrees in reach. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, raised an excellent point about the balance of optimism and hope. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, again—twice in one speech—that the UK has been and will continue to be a leader in tackling climate change, with the Prime Minister’s attendance at COP demonstrating this. The UK’s ground-breaking presidency year has been a pivotal moment when we redouble our efforts, resist backsliding and ultimately go further and faster. We cannot collectively retreat from that and achieving our net zero target must be a shared international endeavour requiring action from all of us and everyone in society.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I welcome the Minister’s celebration of the contribution of indigenous people and civil society to successive COPs, but I asked whether the UK would work to exclude oil and gas lobbyists from future COPs?

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

May I request that the Minister writes to me about tidal stream energy?

Energy Prices Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Brinton for tabling the amendment, to which I have added my name.

There will be a lot of severely disabled people who, like me, are terrified of power cuts. We rely through the day and night on electricity to keep us alive. We are not talking about just hot drinks and hot water bottles. In my case, I am talking about a feeding pump, ventilators, riser lavatories, an electric hospital bed, two lifts, a door opener and a wheelchair that needs charging—and, of course, heating and light. There are many others much worse than I am.

In answer to my noble friend’s question on 11 October, the Minister said that the Government would do

“all we can to protect the most vulnerable.”—[Official Report, 11/10/22; col. 662.]

Can he be a bit more specific about exactly what the Government will do? The energy companies are not exactly strapped for cash at the moment, so I hope that, between the energy companies and the Government, there will be proper, practical planning for the most vulnerable customers if outages occur, which could literally make the difference between life and death.

We need reassurance on this; otherwise, we will be fearful of every winter storm. Can the Minister give us this reassurance?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

May I beg the indulgence of your Lordships’ House: I was in the Grand Committee?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I am very sorry, but the Companion is quite clear: if you were not here at the start of the debate, you are unable to speak.

Energy Prices Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, why are we here today? That is not an existential question but a very practical one. We are here because, without this Bill, households, businesses and institutions —such as the GP surgeries, community centres, libraries and, as the right reverend Prelate just said, churches being lined up as “warm centres” in this fearful winter—would otherwise face unpayable bills.

One direct causal factor here is the actions of President Putin, the instigator of the Russian attack on Ukraine, who just this afternoon announced further sweeping measures of repression on the Ukrainian territory that Russia still occupies and across much of his own nation.

However, the situation is not simple. This is, in the terminology of the planners, a wicked problem. That is not because we had to be in this situation today but because a decade of inaction and wrong action by successive Governments has left us with a fossil fuel-dependent energy system, dreadfully poor-quality housing stock and the great privatisation of homes under the right to buy. My honourable friend in the other place Caroline Lucas has a Private Member’s Bill calling for protection for private renters, a no-fault evictions ban, binding efficiency regulations and a rent freeze to address some of the broader issues for this desperate winter. But many homeowners too will soon be, or are already, in desperate straits, facing soaring mortgage payments. This comes at a time when incomes that were already insecure and inadequate and not keeping up with inflation are leaving people without reserves— 25% of UK households have savings of £2,100 or less.

We are where we are. We have a tottering Government with zero democratic legitimacy and public trust, and no consistency in policy or personnel, and they are offering us this Bill today. That is not to say that I or, I expect, any other noble Lord speaking in this debate will oppose its basic principles. The Government have no choice but to provide major support to households through keeping down the cost of energy to ensure that people do not freeze this winter, and that they will be able to afford a bite of toast, a cup of soup or to fill a hot-water bottle.

However, as our hard-working and fast-working Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee makes crystal clear, there are a number of powers in this Bill of truly extraordinary scope. We really need a new metaphor. Henry VIII on steroids is no longer adequate; we need instead Henry VIII with rocket boosters strapped to those sturdy legs. I offer that image freely to any cartoonist who wants to run with it.

I am sure that in Committee we will see alternative approaches and will debate the detail, so in the interest of time I am going to take a broad overview of a couple of key points. As a number of noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, have already said, the Bill could create a major bias against renewables and in favour of oil and gas. That is an issue not just for the climate emergency but for future cost considerations for households, as soon as next April. It is effectively a 100% windfall tax on the more established renewable electricity generators, unlike the 25% tax on all gas and oil profits. We could end up in a ridiculous situation where energy producers get a huge tax reduction if they invest to pollute the planet but clean energy does not.

I have a specific question to put to the Minister. It builds on the questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. Where do nuclear power stations and biomass firms, such as Drax, sit in this current constellation? The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, also raised an interesting point about trading in oil and gas. This relates to a question I raised earlier on the economic Statement and the place of the financial sector in influencing our Government’s decision-making. I point the noble Baroness to the fact that, in the past, there have been well-developed proposals for what has been called a Robin Hood tax, or a Tobin tax—a model I prefer. That is something that the Government could well be looking at in this situation to address the points that the noble Baroness raised.

I come to my second key point, which is about community-owned schemes. There is a risk with this Bill that the Government will be subsidising people’s bills with one hand while taking money from their income with the other, when that money could be supporting local community prosperity. Any new regulations created or implemented under Clause 16 must include exemptions for community-owned wind farms, solar farms and hydro schemes that reinvest 100% of their profit back into communities. I note that the Environmental Audit Committee report of 29 April 2021 recognises very clearly the wider benefits from community energy projects. It would be totally counterproductive to take money out of communities while the Government presumably also want to promote social benefit and levelling up. Will the Minister agree to meet community representatives from England, Wales and Scotland to discuss how the implementation and model of the regulations under this clause can be written in a way that does not further handicap the community energy sector that has been left in the lurch over recent years?

I very much agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, about energy efficiency; it is there in the Long Title. I agree with everything he said about insulation and other energy-efficiency measures. We also need to look at the use of energy in neon lights, neon signs above shops and lighting in shops. Look across the channel—if we are still allowed to do so—where Governments have very quickly brought in a whole range of measures to reduce consumption. Surely we could match or get close to those.

Before coming into the Chamber I was reading Twitter, which your Lordships’ House might judge that I spend quite a bit of time doing. It led me to reflect, as I was assembling this speech, on the views that the public have of Liz Truss, Jeremy Hunt, Jacob Rees-Mogg and an alternative figure who trends as much as any of them, Martin Lewis of the website MoneySavingExpert. I suspect that if you were to offer the powers in this Bill to Mr Lewis, the public might well jump at the idea—indeed, I suspect that many Members of your Lordships’ House might be tempted to do likewise. That really helps to highlight the fact—more evident now than it was half an hour ago—that we have no idea who we could be giving these powers to. That instability is one more reason to say that we simply cannot allow these sweeping, massive powers—which could be deployed capriciously and chaotically, as so much economic decision-making has been in recent weeks—on something as crucial as the energy that will prevent people freezing this winter and ensuring that they can be fed and survive.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

I will speak to Amendments 43, 45, 48 and 58. Again, they are trying to cope with some of the wide definitions that are contained within the Bill. I am most impressed with the fact that the Government have defined a UK Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard, which was updated in July of this year. It includes guidance and a calculator tool for hydrogen producers to use for greenhouse gas emissions reporting and sustainability criteria. That standard has been designed to demonstrate that low-carbon hydrogen production methods can meet a greenhouse gas emissions test and threshold, and these amendments require the regulations to have regard to that standard when assessing the eligibility of low-carbon hydrogen production. It goes back to what I said beforehand. We are not necessarily nitpicking here; we are seeking to get an amendment into place that allows us to have due regard to low-carbon hydrogen standards in setting objective criteria against which to assess the eligibility of low-carbon hydrogen production. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 46 in my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, clearly set out, this group of amendments is trying to implement something that the Government themselves have established: the UK Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard: Guidance on Greenhouse Gas Emissions Reporting and Sustainability Criteria, which I believe dates originally to April and was updated in July. I find myself in the unusual position of saying that I want to enforce something that the Government have established. Experts in this area tell me that the conditions set out in these standards are: the greenhouse gas emissions intensity of hydrogen for it to be considered low carbon; the emissions being considered up to the point of production; and, very importantly, the risk mitigation plan for fugitive hydrogen emissions. There is perhaps not much public awareness of the risk of that, but we need to share and understand it. The criteria are set out there.

I am not particularly attached to the way this is done in my amendment; I was simply trying to put Amendment 46 down to say that, for the subsidies to be available, it must meet the Government’s own standard. That seems the simplest way, but I am very happy to be convinced that there are various other ways; other amendments are going in the same direction. I am happy should we still need to get to this on Report to talk to people about what the best way of doing it is, but surely the Government want to enforce their own standards.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 47 in my name. I find myself in the unusual position of being more environmentally ambitious than the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, in that the standard that my amendment would introduce on hydrogen would be more stringent and would ensure that we are investing in this form of clean energy only if it is truly clean.

It is a not well understood fact that hydrogen actually has a global warming potential which is not insignificant. When released into the atmosphere, it has the effect of inhibiting the breakdown of methane, which we all know is a powerful greenhouse gas. The latest papers to come out that the Government have produced themselves indicate that, over a 100-year timescale, hydrogen has a global warming potential of 11 times that of CO₂. That is over 100 years, but we are probably concerned about the next 20 years, in which case that rises to it having 33 times as powerful a greenhouse gas effect as CO₂.

When it comes to hydrogen, I know it is often touted as the great white hope and the great solution—in fact, we have had adverts plastered all over Westminster telling us that hydrogen is the answer. However, it has to be considered carefully in context. It is very difficult to produce and to transport, and it is very dangerous to have around the house. In fact, studies have shown that it is potentially between three to four times more likely that someone will be injured from a hydrogen explosion in the home compared to natural gas. Already, natural gas has an unhappily high number of accidents and injuries from its use in the home.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for their amendments in this group.

Amendments 43, 45 and 48 seek to ensure that the question of who is an eligible low-carbon hydrogen producer is determined solely by regulations that set objective criteria against which to assess eligibility, and in doing so must reference the low-carbon hydrogen standard.

Amendment 58 seeks to clarify that a low-carbon hydrogen producer must be eligible to receive support, which the other amendments would ensure means that they are compliant with the low-carbon hydrogen standard. Amendment 46 has a similar purpose; I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for it and for her encouraging comments about the policy.

Amendment 47 seeks to introduce an emissions standard for low-carbon hydrogen production and would require the Government to target support at areas that cannot benefit from other cleaner, more efficient or cost-effective decarbonisation processes. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for this amendment.

A low-carbon hydrogen producer is defined in Clause 61(8) as

“a person who carries on (or is to carry on) activities of producing hydrogen which in the opinion of the Secretary of State will contribute to a reduction in emissions of greenhouse gases”.

The intention of this definition is to ensure that support under hydrogen production revenue support contracts may be provided only in respect of low-carbon hydrogen production that contributes to our decarbonisation ambitions.

Clause 61(3) places a duty on the Secretary of State to make provision in regulations for determining the meaning of “eligible” in relation to a low-carbon hydrogen producer. This approach to defining eligibility in regulations is similar to that taken for low-carbon contracts for difference in the Energy Act 2013. The regulations that define the term “eligible generator” for low-carbon contracts for difference have themselves been updated since they were introduced in 2014 as the industry and technologies have evolved; this has proved a flexible and enduring approach since 2014.

This duty is required as the Secretary of State is only able to direct a hydrogen production counterparty to offer to contract with an eligible low-carbon hydrogen producer. An allocation body will also be able only to give a notification to a hydrogen production counterparty specifying an eligible low-carbon hydrogen producer to offer to contract with. It is not practical to define an eligible low-carbon hydrogen producer in the Bill because eligibility may change over time as the industry and technologies evolve. The Government plan to consult on these regulations by early 2023.

The Government consulted on a UK low-carbon hydrogen standard last year, and a government response was published in April this year. This world-leading standard sets out a greenhouse gas emissions threshold as well as other criteria for hydrogen production to be considered low carbon, and sets out in detail the methodology for calculating the emissions associated with hydrogen production. This includes the steps that producers are expected to take to prove that the hydrogen they produce is compliant.

The standard was developed following a public consultation and multiple engagement sessions with industry and academic experts, including the Hydrogen Advisory Council and its low-carbon hydrogen standard working group. As set out in the response to the consultation on a low-carbon hydrogen business model, published in April this year, we are proceeding with our proposal to require volumes of hydrogen produced to meet the UK low-carbon hydrogen standard in order to qualify for and receive funding under the business model. The low-carbon hydrogen standard is set out in guidance and we expect it to be updated over time to ensure that it remains fit for purpose and reflects our growing understanding of how new technologies work in practice, including how hydrogen production interacts with the broader energy system. I hope that gives some comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, that the standard may well change over time as our understanding of the practice grows.

With a focus on investor confidence, our current approach gives a significant degree of certainty about eligibility, which will provide prospective investors and developers with the clarity and transparency that they need to bring projects forward. While the low-carbon hydrogen standard is an integral part of the low-carbon hydrogen regime, direct reference to an emissions standard in this legislation would undermine both the need for the standard to be capable of evolving over time and the need for the legislation to be certain. The approach currently set out in the clause makes best use of regulations for setting eligibility and guidance that can be more responsive to the evolving nature of the low- carbon hydrogen standard.

Amendment 58 seeks to insert “eligible” in Clause 70(1)(b). We do not consider this necessary, as the reference to

“that low carbon hydrogen producer”

in subsection (1)(b) is referring back to the

“eligible low carbon hydrogen producer”

in subsection (1)(a).

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mentioned the production of methane and it being an unhealthy by-product of hydrogen, and that a green hydrogen lobby group which I was not aware had been consulted. I will certainly take that back to the department. We have numbers on the rate of hydrogen per kilogram of greenhouse gas emissions compared with the low-carbon hydrogen standard, but I will be delighted to write to her, rather than befuddle everybody with the science here.

I therefore ask that the noble Baronesses and noble Lords withdraw and not press Amendments 43, 45, 46, 47, 48 and 58, but thank them for helping to test the robustness of the Government’s decarbonisation ambitions.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I am not a lawyer, and nor is the Minister, so I will understand if she wants to write to me. However, my understanding is that, if the Bill says that it complies with the UK low-carbon hydrogen standard, and then that standard was updated, the legal binding would be updated. Maybe we need wording to say that it complies with the UK low-carbon hydrogen standard as presently exists and is updated in the future. I am not sure what the wording should be, but surely if you have a standard that is being updated, saying in the Bill that you will meet that standard does not mean that the 2022 figures are fixed in stone.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I rise with my European Affairs Committee hat on. I see these as enabling amendments for the storage of energy. The first Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, which took place in May, had a specific session on energy security. The mood was clear: the 70 politicians—35 from Westminster and 35 from the European Parliament—felt that, in a difficult security environment, energy was a European-level matter and that we should think about it as such. Interestingly, I was at a European security conference on Monday and the exact same theme came through. Yesterday, we were settling the agenda for the second Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, and this theme will be on the agenda again.

Many of the speeches and thinking this evening have been from the United Kingdom view of the world. However, we should be enabling ourselves to consider this from a European perspective. As we might be storing gas for others, such as the Germans, anything in these amendments which would allow a future Secretary of State the flexibility to do that would be a good thing from a European context. Therefore, they would be good from a European affairs point of view.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in the interests of time, I will comment only on Amendment 240, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, and offer strong support for it—alongside some potential improvements or broadening-out suggestions at this stage.

It is interesting that, in 2015, Steve Holliday, the then CEO of National Grid, said that the idea of baseload relying on coal-fired or nuclear power stations was “outdated”:

“From a consumer’s point of view, the solar on the rooftop is going to be the baseload.”


This would obviously need to rely on batteries for it to work 24/7. Mostly since that time, 3.3% of British homes have installed solar panels, but many of them were installed before batteries were a viable option. Those home owners should not pay the high levels of VAT to enhance the system for the benefit of both themselves and the whole of society.

I have later amendments talking about community energy schemes. I can think of numerous ones that I have visited over the years where solar panels were put on cricket pavilions, community halls et cetera. We have been talking mostly about domestic settings, but there are also many community settings in which the addition of batteries may now be a practical option.

We will be talking a lot in later groups about the issue of energy efficiency and improving energy security by reducing our demand. My understanding of the information from the Consumer Protection Association —and I stand to be corrected if I am wrong—is that double, triple and secondary glazing are not currently covered by the VAT concession. It seems to me that this could possibly be included in this amendment; perhaps it is something we can work on.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by making it quite clear that my energy storage interests are not around long-term storage or retail storage.

I absolutely support the amendments put forward by my noble friends, but I will not talk about them. Instead, I will follow up on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and relate it to some of the discussion that took place earlier today in the House around storage, because gas storage is really important at this present time, and it will continue to be in future. I like the way—through a percentage or whatever we use—that we can see a relevant ratchet downwards, as we would expect. However, what alarmed me earlier today was that, in terms of current storage, we appear to be in the hands of independent directors of independent companies that have responsibility to their shareholders under the law, but not to the energy security of the country. That was very clearly stated by the Minister in terms of the decision to turn off the Rough facility in 2017. As I said at the time, if that was the case then, I see no reason why that is not also the case in future; there seemed to be no proposal by the Government to change that situation. I am interested to hear the Minister’s response to that part of my original question.

I will also go back to what the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, said, because part of the Minster’s earlier answer was that our storage is the gas we have in the North Sea. But we all know that that store is going down, and I certainly would not, from these Benches, resist trying to increase that in the short term during the energy crisis to ensure that our energy is there—the situation would be different in the medium and long terms. That flow is going down and our imports are going up. I do not know if these two years were particularly representative, but the last figures from the Minister’s department said that, in 2020, we imported £5 billion-worth of gas. A year later, that went up to £20 billion-worth of imports of gas—a quadrupling. That was not all because of a price increase at that time, most of which has happened in 2022.

Another statistic reveals that, while we think we have multiple sources, 75% of imports came from one country, which is Norway. Norway is a dependable friend of the United Kingdom; we would not argue otherwise. But we must be clear that Norway’s bigger customer is Germany. Germany and the other European countries which import gas from Norway are probably more desperate—this is likely not the right phrase to use—for that resource than we are. As I said, I very much support the outline of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and ask the Minister what security we actually have, and for how long, over our supplies—that is, the 75% of imports that we have from Norway. What is our legal entitlement to that flow into the future?