Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, my amendment in this group is a re-run of part of the Committee’s discussion on Monday, and it refers to Clauses 57 and 63. It is all about the “U” in “CCUS”. More precisely, it is about the exclusion of carbon usage from the listed regulated activities in the Bill. Clauses 57 and 63 are concerned with revenue support contracts and the designation of carbon capture counterparties. Under Clause 57, regulations would explicitly set out

“a transport and storage revenue support contract … a hydrogen production revenue support contract … or … a carbon capture revenue support contract”.

There is nothing about a carbon usage revenue support contract. Similarly, in Clause 63, this Government restrict themselves to “carbon capture”, and there is nothing covering carbon usage. So I would welcome an explanation of these apparent omissions from the Minister when he responds.

I turn briefly to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Liddell. She is right to seek to have direct air-sourced carbon covered by the Bill. Direct air capture is not in itself new, but what is new is the likelihood of a massive expansion in the years ahead, as we move towards achieving net zero. The International Energy Agency website is hugely informative on this, and I recommend it to all noble Lords who are interested.

Direct air capture removes CO₂ from the atmosphere, thereby offering a solution for legacy emissions. The first large-scale direct air-capture plant is set to begin operating in the United States by the middle of this decade, and Europe and Canada are set to follow. Direct air capture provides part of the solution to a strategy that sees a balancing of emissions being released with emissions being removed. It is not restricted simply to the removal of carbon from the atmosphere; its application ranges from beverages, with which we are all familiar, to future aviation fuels, helping to reduce emissions from travelling across and between continents. DAC is not the same as traditional carbon capture and storage, with which we are familiar. It is genuinely innovative and requires the attention of this Energy Bill, as my noble friend Lady Liddell will explain.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 49 and the introduction given by my noble friend. First, I apologise for not being around on Monday; being here was outwith my control. But I watched the debate, and my noble friend Lord Foulkes did a wonderful job. I first did a double act with him in the September of 1974, when we educated the Scottish public about devolution. Since that point, I have been lost in awe of him, not just for his knowledge but for his energy. I was recently at a significant birthday party, and the amount that that man can do is quite amazing. However, I am here today to address the carbon capture and storage issues.

I should declare an interest: I am the honorary president of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, and I have been involved in the interest in carbon capture and storage since it was called “clean coal technology”—which gives my age away now as well.

As my noble friend Lord Foulkes pointed out, the Carbon Capture and Storage Association has been very helpful to us in drafting some of these amendments. One of the reasons why it is important to take it into account is that although an awful lot of us have been around carbon capture and storage for a long time, I do not think that most people realise the extent to which the Carbon Capture and Storage Association has changed. In the past year, there has been an exponential growth in membership, and it is coming from a lot of companies that are at the cutting edge of technology.

Our concern addressed in Amendment 49 is that Clause 63 is restrictive. We have been helped very much by the Minister’s department in looking at where we can go from this stage onwards, and it is unfortunate that the way this clause has been drafted means that the shortlisted projects that can be available during phase 2 are limited to industrial power generation and hydrogen. However, there are UK companies now developing engineered greenhouse gas removal technologies —GGRs—which are keen to connect to the CO₂ transport and storage network. At lot of these are small companies that are moving, and there is uncertainty. Many noble Lords in the Chamber today have been around carbon capture for quite some time but do not realise the extent to which new people are coming into the field. The carbon emissions committee made the point that carbon capture and storage is now a necessity, not an option.

We are waiting for the business model for these new companies to be developed; they want to join in the process in due course. It is that ability to see them join the process that is behind this amendment. It is not nit-picking; it is seeking to find a route that allows them to move forward. These technologies currently include bioenergy with carbon capture and storage, and direct air capture, which would be excluded from the process if we did not have an amendment such as this.

This will prepare the Bill for the future. It ensures that we are future-proofing and that we have the ability to move rapidly in a way that would allow the inclusive use of all technologies that can remove CO₂ from the atmosphere, not just those which capture from a commercial or industrial source. I commend Amendment 49, and make no apology for saying that we will come back at fairly regular intervals with amendments—probably small in size—which seek to take into account the new companies that are looking to enter into carbon capture and storage.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am very pleased that the mover and seconder of this amendment have mentioned direct air capture, because sometimes there is confusion between carbon capture and storage and the actual absorption of carbon out of the atmosphere on an enormous scale. Frankly, this is where the big impact will be made in future.

I know that we have made efforts with carbon capture and storage on and off over the years. There is a theoretical idea that finding a way to cheaply cap every chimney of the 9,000 coal-fired stations across Asia and Africa and pipe away the carbon might solve some problems and make a small impact on the overall rising greenhouse gases. However, the most sizeable absorption of carbon that is already in the atmosphere is through direct air capture and climate recovery.

Schemes are already being developed with the input and encouragement of Imperial College and other sources—and in other countries—for developing direct air capture on an absolutely enormous scale. Of course, we cannot do this alone; this is part of an international rescue, if you like, in a way that really begins to give some hope that emissions can be offset so that we can start getting some leverage and control on the overall carbon in the atmosphere. Without this, we will undoubtedly miss all the Paris targets and everyone throughout the world will face very dramatic and increased climate violence, very cold winters and very hot summers.

So I hope that the Minister will indicate that this area is in the Government’s mind and that the development of huge carbon sinks can commence—for instance, in deserts across the world that have already been designated as uninhabited areas. Carbon can be sunk into gigantic lakes the size of Wales or Dubai, or four times the size of London. These vast new developments would offset the overacidity of the ocean. These things can be done. Carbon can be captured and used. CO₂ is a fantastic promoter and fertiliser of food on a colossal scale, and if we are moving into an era of world food shortage, covered areas fed by carbon from huge carbon sinks will really begin to make some impact on the scene.

The other development for carbon sinks is that we could just plant a lot of trees, but that is not very good. Trees are moderate absorbers of carbon although, of course, if they go up in flames they put all the carbon back into the atmosphere straightaway. The real development comes from mangrove groves, which are 16 times more absorbent of CO₂ than other trees. They can be promoted along with saltwater and freshwater lakes in areas where there is a lot of sun and where electricity is therefore virtually costless. Of course, this is at or near the equator. These are the schemes that will save us all and which our Government should be leading in developing by thinking about and backing the necessary legislation. Please, can we have a little more thought on this excellent amendment and the ideas behind it?

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Moved by

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

40: Clause 57, page 52, line 11, leave out “function on any” and insert “relevant function on any relevant”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is to ensure powers are appropriately delegated.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

Thank you very much. This is another one on future-proofing. The amendment says,

“leave out ‘function on any’ and insert ‘relevant function on any relevant’”

person. The reason is that these delegation powers could be interpreted as being broad and non-specific, and it would be some comfort to insert this language to ensure it is clear that the Bill is referring only to the powers relating to revenue support regulations, and that these will be appropriately delegated to a person with the right capabilities. It seems to open a door that makes us feel a little bit uncomfortable and I think it would be a very sound way to go forward to accept the terms of this Amendment 40. I beg to move.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I add my welcome to my noble friend Lady Liddell and I am certain that my noble friend Lord Foulkes will be thinking of organising a party to celebrate her return to Westminster.

I cannot add to the comments she made on her amendment. I completely support what she said. I feel that there is a bit of déjà vu here and that we are going over ground we covered in our first session on Monday, but I think it is really important that we emphasise again, through the amendments that my noble friend Lord Lennie and I have put down, how important it is that we have clarity in all aspects of the Bill. I want to emphasise again the need to ensure that all aspects are future-proofed, thereby giving all parties the confidence that matters of probity, security and appropriate appointments are always taken into account in key positions. It is unfortunate that we need to emphasise this aspect, but I think experience will tell us that it is a very necessary part of all the processes that we bring in place.

To recap briefly, in Amendment 42 we would like to insert the phrase “fit and proper”. As we have said before, this is not the first time this has been used—it was used in the National Security and Investment Bill. Through this amendment we make sure that it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State personally to deem the individual as fit and proper.

Amendment 44 specifically refers to the need for the hydrogen counterparty to be

“a fit and proper person”.

The aim is to make sure that responsibility is very clearly accounted to the Secretary of State.

The explanatory statement for Amendment 64 says:

“If the Secretary of State needs to find a new counterparty, this amendment requires that they must ensure they are a fit and proper person, as with previous amendments in our names”.


I do not think that at this point in the state of affairs we can emphasise enough just how important it is to have accountability, clarity and the ability to have straight- forward lines of communication.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for his kind invitation to address noble Lords on this subject, and I thank others who have contributed to the debate.

Let me start with Amendment 40, tabled by the formidable Scottish duo of the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. He is sadly not with us today, which is a shame: he always adds to the jollity of the proceedings, but I am sure he will be back with us soon. This amendment seeks to ensure that the conferral of functions on persons by revenue support regulations is appropriately delegated.

Clause 57 sets out the Secretary of State’s power to make provision in regulations about revenue support contracts, including the funding of liabilities and costs in relation to such contracts. These are referred to as, as has been said, as the revenue support regulations. Clause 57(7) states that

“revenue support regulations may confer any function on any person.”

This is intended to enable persons other than a revenue support counterparty, allocation body or a hydrogen levy administrator to take on a role in the delivery of revenue support contracts and related funding. As with revenue support regulations, such functions would be limited to those about revenue support contracts, including the funding of liabilities and costs in relation to such contracts.

Let me make it clear to the House that Clause 57(7) absolutely does not provide the Secretary of State with a general power to confer any function on any person, outside of the scope of revenue support regulations. It is also worth noting that the selection by the Government of any person to undertake such functions would be subject to principles of public decision-making. The Government are, of course, duty bound to take only relevant considerations into account when making a decision.

I move on to Amendments 42, 44 and 64, from the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Baroness Blake, and spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. These amendments seek to ensure propriety when conducting the designation exercise and when transferring any relevant property, rights and liabilities. Of course, it goes without saying that I too support ensuring the upmost standards for those wishing to fulfil the role of hydrogen production counter- party.

The Government anticipate that the Low Carbon Contracts Company Ltd, or LCCC, which is the existing counterparty for contracts for difference and the planned counterparty for the dispatchable power agreement, will in fact be the counterparty for the low-carbon hydrogen agreement, subject of course to successful completion of administrative and legislative arrangements. That is also the case for the industrial carbon capture contracts. In taking the decision to proceed with the LCCC as the counterparty to the low-carbon hydrogen agreement, the Secretary of State considered, among other things, its ability to deliver the required functions and experience and track record in contract management. These considerations would of course be made on any future decisions, which would also be subject, as I have said, to the normal principles of public decision-making.

It is worth pointing out—I suppose that this is the Government declaring an interest—that the LCCC is wholly owned by the Secretary of State for BEIS and is governed by its articles of association and a framework document setting out the relationship with the Secretary of State and its guiding principle.

The justification of the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for the inclusion of “fit and proper” was its apparent precedent in what was the National Security and Investment Bill, yet this phrasing does not in fact appear in the Act as made. Therefore, with the reassurances and information that I have been able to provide to noble Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

Given that explanation, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 40 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

43: Clause 61, page 55, line 5, leave out from “of” to end and insert ““low carbon hydrogen production”, including (without limitation) compliance with the Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard”
Member’s explanatory statement
Regulations must have regard to the Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard in setting objective criteria against which to assess the eligibility of low carbon hydrogen production.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

I will speak to Amendments 43, 45, 48 and 58. Again, they are trying to cope with some of the wide definitions that are contained within the Bill. I am most impressed with the fact that the Government have defined a UK Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard, which was updated in July of this year. It includes guidance and a calculator tool for hydrogen producers to use for greenhouse gas emissions reporting and sustainability criteria. That standard has been designed to demonstrate that low-carbon hydrogen production methods can meet a greenhouse gas emissions test and threshold, and these amendments require the regulations to have regard to that standard when assessing the eligibility of low-carbon hydrogen production. It goes back to what I said beforehand. We are not necessarily nitpicking here; we are seeking to get an amendment into place that allows us to have due regard to low-carbon hydrogen standards in setting objective criteria against which to assess the eligibility of low-carbon hydrogen production. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 46 in my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, clearly set out, this group of amendments is trying to implement something that the Government themselves have established: the UK Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard: Guidance on Greenhouse Gas Emissions Reporting and Sustainability Criteria, which I believe dates originally to April and was updated in July. I find myself in the unusual position of saying that I want to enforce something that the Government have established. Experts in this area tell me that the conditions set out in these standards are: the greenhouse gas emissions intensity of hydrogen for it to be considered low carbon; the emissions being considered up to the point of production; and, very importantly, the risk mitigation plan for fugitive hydrogen emissions. There is perhaps not much public awareness of the risk of that, but we need to share and understand it. The criteria are set out there.

I am not particularly attached to the way this is done in my amendment; I was simply trying to put Amendment 46 down to say that, for the subsidies to be available, it must meet the Government’s own standard. That seems the simplest way, but I am very happy to be convinced that there are various other ways; other amendments are going in the same direction. I am happy should we still need to get to this on Report to talk to people about what the best way of doing it is, but surely the Government want to enforce their own standards.

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[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I need to take that question back to the department and then write to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

I thank the Minister very much for that very full response. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised some interesting points that I was not aware of. It would be useful to explore those further as we get towards Report. However, I am content to beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 43 withdrawn.