Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Wednesday 15th July 2026

(began 2 weeks ago)

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15:05

Message from the King

My My Lords, My Lords, I My Lords, I have My Lords, I have it My Lords, I have it in My Lords, I have it in command My Lords, I have it in command from His Majesty the King to deliver to your Lordships a message signed with his own hand.

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My Lords, the message is as follows. His Majesty, being follows. His Majesty, being desirous that the provision made by Parliament for the financial support of the Royal Household support of the Royal Household should be considered. Ask the Lords, spiritual and temporal to concur in the adoption of such measures as the adoption of such measures as My My Lords, My Lords, I My Lords, I have My Lords, I have to notify the House in accordance with the Royal Assent Act, 1967, that His Majesty the King has signified his Royal Assent to the following

15:07

Royal Assent: Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill; Taxation (Energy and Vehicles) Bill; Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill

acts. Supply and appropriation. Main estimates. Act. Taxation, Energy and Vehicles Act. Steel industry. Nationalisation Act. Cheltenham Borough Council. Markets act. First. Oral Question. Baroness Lister of Burtersett.

15:07

Lord Katz (Labour)

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I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. >> My Lords, Social Security provides a safety net to support families when they need it most. This is why we have removed the two child limit, lifting 450,000 child limit, lifting 450,000 children out of poverty and delivered the first ever sustained rise in the standard allowance of Universal Credit. While important, our ambition on child poverty goes beyond Social Security. We are taking substantive action on the drivers of poverty by cutting the cost of essentials and making work pay.

15:08

Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)

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Lord Sedwill. The Child Poverty Strategy demonstrates, as has my noble friend, the importance of noble friend, the importance of Social Security, described recently by Minister Johnson as the bedrock by Minister Johnson as the bedrock of our welfare state. Yet political debate is dominated by the negative false narrative of ballooning, wasteful spending. Could my noble friend therefore say what the government might do to combat this narrative and highlight the value of Social Security as a vital public service which invests in our society and the security of its people?

15:08

Lord Katz (Labour)

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Well, my noble friend is, of course, right. We want to make sure that the Social Security system is that the Social Security system is there to support all families when they need it, while taking action to make sure that work pays. Our ambitious. Our ambition is that Social Security provides a safety net where needed, and that it supports families to increase income through work where possible. At the same time, the government is committed to ensuring that welfare spending remains on a sustainable path.

We set a new welfare cap at the Autumn budget 2024 to ensure that welfare spending remains under control over the course of this Parliament. Overall forecast welfare spending is virtually unchanged from the last OBR assessment, increasing by only 0.1% in 2029 to 30. Tackling child poverty requires investment, including in our social security system. The cost of failing to tackle poverty is too high, both for children and for the country. This government is investing upfront to avoid those costs of failure.

15:09

Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)

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Perhaps the Minister could tell us what role will work play in us what role will work play in alleviating poverty in this country, because, of course, work has benefits beyond just its financial difference to a family household. Yeah.

15:09

Lord Katz (Labour)

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Well, the noble Lord is, of >> Well, the noble Lord is, of course, right. We want to see everyone who can work are working. everyone who can work are working. And that is why we have done and undertaken a number of actions in, in, in, in fixing our broken in, in, in fixing our broken security, social security system to, to get people into work, particularly when it comes to targeting it, targeting the over 1 million NEETs young people not in education, employment or training, giving them a start.

For instance, things like the three. The the New Youth Jobs grant, which gives employers incentivise employers to take on young people who've been on universal Credit for over 18 months. Investment in incentivise them to take put them into work, giving them jobs with £3,000 grant.

15:10

Baroness Teather (Liberal Democrat)

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Hugely welcome. There's all children in. Families receiving Universal Credit will be eligible Universal Credit will be eligible for free school meals from September. But we know many who are September. But we know many who are already eligible do not receive their free school meal for a whole host of reasons, including stigma. Will the government consider adopting auto enrolment to ensure that no child who needs this meal misses their chance of receiving it?

15:11

Lord Katz (Labour)

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Here? >> Well, the noble Lady is right about the impact of free school meals and the unprecedented expansion of free school meals that this government is implementing this government is implementing will lift 100,000 children out of poverty by the final year of this parliament, which is equivalent to increasing families income by £500 a year. Now, on internal or auto enrolment existing in existing free school meals, all households in receipt of Universal Credit will make it easier for parents to understand their entitlement.

And we're updating the eligibility checking system, which will make it easier for local authorities and schools to check if children are eligible. We are closely monitoring this action and will consider further action if necessary.

15:11

Lord Bird (Crossbench)

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Is the government aware of the fact that about 25% of those people who fall into the neat category are people who have actually been to the university and actually had the university and actually had things like further education training.

15:12

Lord Katz (Labour)

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Well, absolutely. That is the that is the case. And I think the one thing that the the Milburn and one thing that the the Milburn and Milburn's interim report set out very starkly is that the real stickiness that when young people stickiness that when young people are don't go into work or indeed finish a course of education or training, there's a stickiness that we need to absolutely need to combat. And that's why we are determined to stop failing our young people, stop failing our communities and our and our economy.

That's why we commissioned the report. And we are very much awaiting his final report and recommendations.

15:12

Baroness Bousted (Labour)

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The government's scrapping of the two child limit will see half a the two child limit will see half a million children lifted out of poverty, as 40% of the attainment gap is created before children gap is created before children start school and is driven by poverty. Does my noble friend the Minister, agree that the lifting of the two child limit will raise the attainment and hugely improve the life chances of children born into poor families?

15:12

Lord Katz (Labour)

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Hear, hear! absolutely on the button. This is a this is about not just not just improving the lives of children in poverty. It's about future proofing poverty. It's about future proofing our our country, our economy, and our society for the better. This is why we have taken a big decision to move the single biggest leave, pull the single biggest lever we could pull to to tackle child poverty. And that's why. That's why this move alone will be lifting as she I think she said, 450,000 children out of poverty by the by the end of this Parliament.

The child poverty strategy we've set out will not only not only deals with the two child limit, but it shows how we can boost families income through employment. Drive down the cost of essentials so parents can meet those children's fundamental needs and give them the best start in life and strengthen local support so families can access vital services.

15:13

The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)

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Bishop. >> Bishop Miles. I've spoken before in this House about the poverty shame nexus, the deep, deep shame nexus, the deep, deep relationship between financial hardship and psychological and social experience of shame. Can the noble Lord, the Minister, tell us what the government is doing, not only to address financial material hardship through Social Security, but also the psychological and social aspects?

15:14

Lord Katz (Labour)

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Well. right right reverend Prelate rather, excuse me, touches on a on a really important point. The shame and the stigma of being in poverty. And stigma of being in poverty. And that's why we are taking steps like removing the two child limit, like extending free school meals so that when children go to school, they're not hungry. They've got far in their in their minds, not in their hunger to learn. Rather than a hunger from their bellies. And I think it's really important that we are lifting people out of poverty and.

But I would say most the best thing we can do is make sure that we can make work pay and put people in good, decent jobs so that young children in those families understand the way to success is through education, through employment, through training.

15:15

Lord Hintze (Conservative)

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Indeed is a critical, important. society is a very critical piece of of, of what we do. However, can the noble Minister help me understand how do you how does the government define poverty? And I speak from personal experience. Thank you. Well.

15:15

Lord Katz (Labour)

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I mean, I think the esoteric, perhaps rather esoteric answer I perhaps rather esoteric answer I could give to the noble Lord is, is around the the baseline report that around the the baseline report that we set out recently, which, which set out how we are going to be monitoring the child, the child poverty strategy. And we basically have two we have two headline metrics. We follow relative low income, which understands the breadth of the problem, but also deep material poverty, which understands that in some cases, there's a really, really, you know, there's about how very, very basic items that people need to survive that can't be accessed because of because of poverty.

Poverty, we think by using those two alongside a number of contextual indicators, which look at household employment, debt and costs will be able to actually properly understand poverty in the round.

15:16

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, just elaborating on what the Minister has said, the what the Minister has said, the main role of Social Security in reducing child poverty is to act as reducing child poverty is to act as a cash lifeline. It supplements and replace or replaces earnings so children can have a more stable standard of living. Could the Minister elaborate on what he said before, as how it can work in practice when combined with decent wages, affordable housing and child care? Because my Lords benefits alone cannot solve every cause of poverty.

15:16

Lord Katz (Labour)

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No, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, I'm pleased to say. And noble Lord, I'm pleased to say. And he's right. We are taking a cross-government, holistic approach to to sorting this problem. And that involves that goes as far as as far as our £39 billion programme, ten year programme for more social and affordable housing so we can tackle some of the the outrageous things we've seen around the use of temporary accommodation and make sure that actually people have access to good standards of living.

15:17

Earl Howe (Conservative)

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My Lords, one small but significant way of contributing to significant way of contributing to the life chances of young people would be the automatic release of unclaimed child trust funds. What consideration is the government giving to to doing that?

15:17

Lord Katz (Labour)

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I will I will say that it's always it's always a delight to hear from the party opposite on hear from the party opposite on this, because there's sometimes a bit of a childlike wonder and astonishment that they discover new

15:18

Oral questions: Implementing the National Shipbuilding Strategy

features and issues in, in a system that they've been overseeing for quite some designed and overseen for quite some while. I will, I

15:17

Lord Katz (Labour)

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for quite some while. I will, I will, I'm very happy to write to the noble Lord with more details, the noble Lord with more details, more details of that of in that in that particular scenario. But we are considering all ways that we can actually make sure that we have can actually make sure that we have a an affordable welfare bill, including including making sure that we have efficiencies across

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the board. Second, Oral Question Lord Beamish. Beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

15:18

Oral questions: Implementing the National Shipbuilding Strategy

My Lords, the government is working hard to deliver for the UK shipbuilding sector. Since 2020 4000 jobs have been saved at Harland and Wolff's yards in

15:18

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. £10 billion frigate deal was agreed with Norway, the last of was agreed with Norway, the last of its kind in UK history, and millions have been invested in critical infrastructure, all delivered through close delivered through close collaboration between government and industry. The National Shipbuilding Office plans to publish a new shipbuilding and publish a new shipbuilding and maritime technical technological technology excuse me action plan this year, going beyond the this year, going beyond the national shipbuilding strategy to set out our bold vision for the sector, maximising its high growth potential.

15:18

Lord Beamish (Labour)

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Sir John Parker produced his report National Shipbuilding Policy in 2017. It was adapted by the then government, reviewed in 2022 and adopted by the incoming Labour government. His own department has made some progress to make, ensuring that there's a throughput of work through UK shipyards. But can I ask him what more can be done to ensure that departments. Department of education. Sorry. Department of transport, which is currently looking at providing ships for the Trinity House to be put abroad, and the Home Office in its border force cutters considering putting them abroad into shipyards and only subsidised by national governments in those countries, but also farming work out and subcontracting to the Far East.

15:19

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Can I say the the points that my noble friend raises, as always on these matters are incredibly important, and he will know from his vast experience and the work that he does, that what we we have to have a cultural change here and rebuild the British shipbuilding industry and re-establish the sovereign capability. He will know from the region he represented with his with distinction for many years in Parliament, but also now as a member of this House but still living in that area, the importance of the North East for shipbuilding.

But we have to have a situation where buying British and our shipyards are given first choice and first preference for the building of our ships, including for our Navy, but also as my my noble friend makes the point, we need other departments to consider that as fully as they can as well.

15:20

Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)

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Lord. >> My Lord, the noble Lord. The Minister will be aware of the central role Harland and Wolff is intended to play in delivering the intended to play in delivering the National Shipping Strategy, supported by significant investment from Nirvana UK, which will create many hundreds of new, highly skilled, well-paid jobs in Belfast. What support of any can His Majesty's Government provide to ensure that Northern Ireland Skills Base is ready to supply enough properly qualified workers to fill these vital roles?

15:21

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Yeah. as I do that if you went to Belfast, I did many times a few years ago. What you saw was a derelict shipyard and you saw nothing there. shipyard and you saw nothing there. Now you see the investment going into the into Harland and Wolff, the orders that they are being placed there for the building of ships. And I think it's great credit to the people of Northern Ireland, the people of Belfast, that that's happening. The government are investing in shipbuilding, but in terms of the skills which the noble Lord has mentioned, he will know that Northern Ireland was given a growth deal which can be used for skills.

But he will also know just a couple of days ago, that Queen's University in Belfast was part of the Defence University Universities Alliance, which will also help with that. But the. The front blunt reality is we need to invest money in our in our shipyards across the UK, and we're doing that in Belfast as well as other areas in the country.

15:21

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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Where does. >> Where does. >> Tied up in at sea. And that was witnessed by the lack of a ship in the med. The start of this recent the med. The start of this recent conflict and the timing delay in mobilising HMS Dragon. Where is the urgency in covering that gap? And can I also ask, with no replacement for our destroyers, how are we going to protect ourselves against the growing threat of ballistic missiles?

15:22

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Yeah. you, one of the things we're doing is what my colleague from any other place did at Faslane yesterday or the day before, where he announced the day before, where he announced £26 billion worth of investment over the next ten years into the naval base, naval bases across the whole of the UK, so that we can improve the availability of our ships. But it needs investment in our shipyards, which is which is taking place. And I think that's one of the ways that that we're seeking to do it.

So we will improve availability. It will take some time. In terms of the type 45 destroyers and the the replacement, what we're looking for is the Navy of the future. The Navy of the future will have air defence, will have ways of dealing with the threats that it that he faces, but it will do it in a different way to simply replace the existing Lords.

15:23

The Earl of Minto (Conservative)

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Sir John Parker's core message was absolutely clear the British shipyards need a steady drumbeat of orders, and the Mod must give a direction of travel. Shipbuilding now faces a yawning uncertainty exacerbated by the Defence Investment Plan, the type 83 destroyers that had been mentioned, the type 32 frigates have been cancelled, leaving us susceptible to ballistic missile attack and the type 26 frigates currently under construction in Glasgow are being delayed. Now all we have for the future is this vague concept of a common combat vessel as yet undesigned with no timelines at all.

Why has the government rejected the core proposition of the National shipbuilding strategy?

15:23

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Yeah. conclusions of that. That report. What we've said is, of course, the the noble gentleman's gentleman is the noble gentleman's gentleman is absolutely right that we need investment. And the government has huge amounts of investment. I can't read them all out on pages 35 and 36. But he will see in their. Laboured against numerous types of ship sums of money which will be invested in the shipyards. But it's quite right that we need a steady drumbeat of orders, and he will no doubt, as a proud Scotsman with his noble friend, sat behind him the noble Scottish Baroness.

He will be as pleased as I am that there are 13 ships to be built on the Clyde. Over the next few years. He will also know that we've announced only yesterday with the Netherlands eight amphibious transport ships, all of the eight with the Netherlands, but all of the eight to be built in the UK. I think it's not a bad start.

15:24

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

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For too long we have had feast and famine with our warship shipbuilding industry and part of the reason we were in the dreadful situation we are today is because situation we are today is because orders took too long to make and there was no drumbeat. We were very shortly have four frigates. The great Royal Navy will have four frigates. It's almost unbelievable to say it, and that's because we have not had a drumbeat. And even now, looking to the future with the 26 and 30 ones the government has to commit, I believe to say we will build a drumbeat thereafter.

If you want 25 hulls, we all know with 25 year life, you need one ship every year being built if you want 30, which the government said it wanted, then you need 1.3 being built every year. And that is not happening. And we will not be getting the first of the new ships for another three years. It is extremely worrying and we must commit, I believe, to a steady drumbeat of orders that lets industry spend money, build up the shipyards, get the SMEs going, and we can actually get back to having a navy that can really do what it needs to do.

15:25

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Well. >> Well, I agree with that. And that's what the points that my noble friend has made. And as I said in answer to the noble Earl of Minto, that's what we are doing. And we are steadily improving that drumbeat that the my noble friend talks about. But what we're also trying to do is to say, we also need to ensure that we have the Navy, which we need in the future as well, and that Navy will be a different type of Navy.

Of course, you will need warships, of course you will need platforms. And that's the point about the common combat vessel. Of course you'll need vessels like that, but they will launch from them uncrewed vessels above on the surface and below the water, and they will give us capabilities when they're integrated, as they will be on the digital, on the digital platforms that we'll have will give us huge capability to defend both ourselves and our allies and our partners across the world.

15:26

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Conservative)

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I was born and brought up very >> I was born and brought up very close to the River Tyne, and my family did well from the shipping that went on there. As I grew up, that went on there. As I grew up, the shipyards were closing. We don't have a capacity in this country that we used to have, but what we do have are engineers and maritime designers, electricians, all those who understand the designs that are necessary for maritime security with the Minister not agree with me that even if we can't actually physically build the ships, we have talents and abilities here that can be sold throughout the world to develop the maritime industry.

15:27

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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We with the point about the brilliance of our engineers, our brilliance of our engineers, our technicians, and our ability to build ships. And of course, it would be great to see them would be great to see them supporting shipyards around the world and the building of ships. But what I think all of this house wants to see is the re-establishment of our own sovereign capability and our own shipyards around the UK to build the ships that we need, and that's what the government is seeking to do, whether it be in the North East, in Scotland, in Wales or indeed in England.

Only yesterday I met a shipbuilder who is a chief executive of a company which is starting to build ships on the Isle of Wight called Osseo. And I think that's the sort of small, medium sized business that we need to support alongside the big prime contractors. But let me say this the intention of this government is to re-establish the UK shipbuilding industry, and I think that's an endeavour we can all get behind.

15:28

Oral questions: Increasing registration requirements and operational restrictions on humanitarian actors by parties to the conflict in Sudan

Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oral Question Baroness Brown of Silvertown. >> Thank you, my Lords. I beg leave

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to ask the question in my name on the Order Paper. Yes.

15:28

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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My Lords, we are deeply alarmed by both CSF and staff's attempts to restrict life saving aid from restrict life saving aid from reaching Sudanese civilians. We are lobbying the CSF to rescind the

15:28

directives imposed by the humanitarian agency, and require humanitarian organisations to humanitarian organisations to register their presence or face expulsion. We are continuing to call on us on the South to show restraint and remove all impediments, preventing essential supplies and personnel from supplies and personnel from accessing areas of greatest need, like El Obeid. As the many the like El Obeid. As the many the rainy season approaches and needs increase across Sudan, all parties must facilitate safe, unimpeded humanitarian access in line with their obligations under international humanitarian law.

15:29

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. My Lords, as we're all painfully aware, the conflict in Sudan has created a catastrophic humanitarian crisis. Atrocities

15:29

Baroness Brown of Silvertown (Labour)

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loom in El Obeid, as they did in El Fasher, and external actors Fasher, and external actors continue to fuel this war. It's appalling that parties to the appalling that parties to the conflict are imposing increasing restrictions and threaten those vital emergency assistance. Will the government please redouble its efforts to ensure that aid reaches efforts to ensure that aid reaches those in need and maximise efforts to end this war, not least holding to account the external actors enabling this content?

15:30

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Yes, and I thank the my noble friend for putting it quite so strongly. She is right to. And she strongly. She is right to. And she is a long standing advocate for is a long standing advocate for this cause. It is outrageous that humanitarian agencies are being required to register as they are. We are redoubling the amount that we're spending on local agencies who are able to work in a different way and be more flexible, some of which are not registered as humanitarian bodies and are able to work around this.

But it is wrong. It should not be happening, and nobody should be impeding access that is needed to provide humanitarian support and to protect civilians. Deeply.

15:30

Baroness Sugg (Conservative)

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Concerning reports of continued assaults in El Abed. And I welcome the recent statement from the UK the recent statement from the UK and like minded partners on that. But given these reports and the strategic importance of aid as a strategic importance of aid as a humanitarian hub and as a gateway to Kordofan and Darfur, could I ask the noble Lady, the Minister, what assessment the government has made of the humanitarian situation in El Abed, and what further steps they can take to ensure that aid safely reaches civilians there?

15:31

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Again. >> It's incredibly precarious. We see an increasing gathering of troops around El Obeid. We see more

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and more civilians moving into the city because they're being displaced From surrounding villages, and they're seeking refuge. This is an incredibly dangerous situation. And we we are monitoring it very, very closely. Bearing in mind the limitations of our ability to be present on the ground there at the moment. But I can assure the noble Lady, because I know she cares deeply about this, that we are talking to our counterparts at leader level, head of state level, and all of us are speaking to our counterparts wherever we can, because I think we all understand that the way that this stops is that the backers of these of both the armed groups we're talking about, they need to insist that this stops.

They need to stop funding, stop arming, and enable peace to be secured and negotiated.

15:32

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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Lord Oates can I declare an interest as an advisor today? I interest as an advisor today? I welcome what the Minister has said about UK government action, but as she will know, it's an event I hosted recently in this House. We heard how local actors were actually delivering humanitarian aid on the ground where international aid could not get. I am glad the government is supporting us, but will they do more to support the emergency rooms in Sudan, which in some cases are the only agencies that are delivering to the people, and it's worth taking the risk of giving them a bit more money.

15:32

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Yeah. they're fantastic. And they are not registered. They don't they are not required to meet the registration requirements of the CSF. So they are able to operate in a more flexible way. We've increased our

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funding to them for that reason. I thank. My Lord, those of us who have

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My Lord, those of us who have loved and visited Sudan are of course, devastated. I really welcome this question from my noble friend Baroness Brown. Can the friend Baroness Brown. Can the noble, the Minister, say what actions the government is taking to the United Nations and other the United Nations and other international platform to improve accountability for attacks on humanitarian workers in Sudan, and also what is being done to ensure that women are not continuously being raped as a weapon of war.

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Prestar funding to victims of sexual violence. We announced that some months ago, and that was the some months ago, and that was the right thing to do, and we may need to do more. As far as what we're doing multilaterally, we have we doing multilaterally, we have we are the pen holder at the UN. We've used our role as Security Council, used our role as Security Council, and noble Lords will know that. The difficulties with that. At the moment we have been more successful at the Human Rights Council and secured unanimous support for statements there.

But we've also had to create our own sort of multilateral entities to really keep focus on this. With the coalition for Atrocity Prevention and Justice, in order to be more

15:34

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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agile and outspoken, where perhaps UN processes have proved proved difficult. But we will continue to do this. And I think that one of the things that may well, may well help us to avoid seeing a repeat of what happened in El Fasher is a relentless focus on what is happening in Sudan, and really holding those responsible for for committing those atrocities, but also for supporting them to account.

15:34

Here. >> Here. >> I would like to first thank the noble Baroness Baroness Brown of Silverton for actually bringing this up. And I couldn't agree more with more everything you said. The essential thing is to get the aid flowing, remove the impediments to the flow of aid to the people. So what we've got to get end up with is an end to the conflict in the first place. Now, the noble Baroness Meacher United Nations, there are other groups like the African Union and the League of Arab States.

What influence can His Majesty's Government use with these groups to try and sort out this problem and to enable aid to reach those that actually need it?

15:35

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, we've I mean, I've met with I was at the African Union meetings earlier this year, and we meetings earlier this year, and we have frequent conversations with them. We're also actively supporting the quad process, which supporting the quad process, which is led by the US. We'll continue to do those things because the noble Lord is right. Of course, this actually, yes, there are the issues we face today around humanitarian support, but this is actually in the long run, this gets resolved by a cessation of the conflict.

And we must use all of the mechanisms.

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There are several that are available to us to bring that about. Lord Deighton the skies above El

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Lord Deighton the skies above El Obeid as we speak now are drones, reconnaissance drones, which are reconnaissance drones, which are identifying women, civilians as potential targets. There is the technology to ensure that there are technology to ensure that there are no drone zones to prevent humanitarian atrocities. This is humanitarian atrocities. This is authorised under United Nations Security Council resolution. The UK is the pen holder for Sudan operating under this resolution. Why is there not a prevention of

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drones targeting civilians in these areas? I, I, I answer the question this.

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I, I, I answer the question this. I did indicate that I'd asked for advice on our duty to protect. I've had that advice and I've asked for had that advice and I've asked for further advice on specifically that responsibility, I. I understand completely what he's saying, what completely what he's saying, what the noble Lord is saying. I receive regular updates on the number of drones, the number of attacks, the drones, the number of attacks, the amassing of troops. And all I can say for now is please be assured that there is a very strong desire from me, from the Foreign Secretary, and from the Prime Minister, to make sure that the United Kingdom does everything that it can in order to protect people in Sudan.

15:37

davi Lord Davies of Brixton (Labour)

I thank my noble friend for. >> I thank my noble friend for. >> Her answers and the work she is doing on this appalling situation. doing on this appalling situation. It's clear from her answers that the obstruction of humanitarian aid, the obstruction of humanitarian aid, accessing the country and being distributed in the country is happening on a tremendous scale. This is clearly a crime. What steps has the government to ensure that sooner or later, those responsible face sanctions and even better

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judicial action? Well, we I'm not going to say anything about sanctions that we anything about sanctions that we may implement imminently, because that would reduce their impact. But we do look at these things in a way we do look at these things in a way that he would agree with, and we have supported the fact finding mission as well. I think we are working with our partners, including the international NGOs including the international NGOs and local partners, to try and find ways to support them, to get to be able to deliver the aid that is needed despite the restrictions that are being imposed by the RSF.

15:38

Lord Polak (Conservative)

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My Lords, there are children in danger. There are children dying. Save the children UK have got into Save the children UK have got into doing sort of gimmicks. What would the noble Lady, the Minister, say to them? Why are they not saving children? As it says in their title?

15:38

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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For those that don't know what >> For those that don't know what the noble Lord is getting at, I agree with him. Actually, I think agree with him. Actually, I think there's been an unfortunate use of social media by Save the Children, which I think is divisive, provocative, factually inaccurate. And I'm very happy to debate with any charity or NGO or anybody else the decisions that this government has made regarding any conflict at any time. What I do not think this country needs right now is contributions that exacerbate divisions on topics which are incredibly divisive and sensitive.

We should all be conducting ourselves in a way that is respectful and grounded in substance. And I would encourage every campaigning organisation to do that.

15:39

Oral questions: Maximum temperature for all indoor workplaces

Fourth Oral Question Lord Sikka. >> I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name of the Order Paper. >> My Lords. >> We recognised in our.

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We recognised in our. Manifesto and in our. Make work. Pay plan concerns about high workplace temperatures in certain sectors causing serious health and safety concerns. We are committed to modernising health and safety guidance with reference to extreme temperatures, the HSC has committed to consult on the workplace health, safety, health, safety and welfare approved code of practice later this year in. Meanwhile, employers must protect the health and safety of their workforce, assess and manage workplace risks, including

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those from extreme temperatures. I thank the Minister for her

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I thank the Minister for her reply, but let me outline the urgency. There were 1311 heat urgency. There were 1311 heat related deaths in 2024, 1504 in

15:40

Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Well, first of all, I would say the figures that the noble Lord quotes about the excess deaths from heat are obviously very, very worrying. Not all of those clearly would be related to workplaces. It would be related to workplaces. It isn't true to say that there is no law or no ability to take enforcement against employers who don't act appropriately are on keeping their workers safe, including with respect to excessive heat and the fact that the HSE is developing new guidance does not mean that this isn't something where employers nevertheless have a responsibility to act and will be, and would be held to account by the HSE for that action.

15:41

Lord Redwood (Conservative)

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Why does the government think >> Why does the government think that this country has such a low level of air conditioning systems level of air conditioning systems installed, and would it look again at its rather negative guidance on their acquisition?

15:41

Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Well, I suspect without being an expert on this, one of the reasons expert on this, one of the reasons is because most of the year we don't need to use them. And don't need to use them. And therefore I think it is it's not unreasonable of government, certainly with respect to public buildings, to take a proportionate approach to the changes that should be made in those buildings. The adaptations, which certainly will be needed in homes, in schools, in hospitals and and elsewhere, and to provide sensible and proportionate advice alongside considerable capital investment in order to enable that to happen.

15:42

Earl Russell (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, we're on our third heat wave this year, so I very much welcome this question, and I thank the noble Baroness for her answer. And I recognise that numerous consultations are underway. Can I ask the noble Baroness what consideration government's given to actually the deployment of wearable tech, particularly to protect workers who work in the outside, who are particularly vulnerable to heat exhaustion and heat stroke from a warming climate?

15:43

Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Yeah. responsibility for ensuring the safety of their workforce rests safety of their workforce rests directly with employers. The HSE provides quite important guidance about how to ensure that that happens. I don't believe it covers the the point about wearable tech that the noble Lord made. I will take that back to the to the HSE, but it does expect employers to think about a whole range of different ways in which workers can

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be protected, whether inside or, as he says outside. My Lords.

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My Lords. Currently it seems impossible to. Buy air cooling. Systems a variety Buy air cooling. Systems a variety of possible. For love nor money. So of possible. For love nor money. So can my noble friend guarantee that any new rules on maximum temperatures will give plenty of temperatures will give plenty of time and notice for employers to introduce those adaptations to the workplace, and also guarantee the workforce some relief from

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unbearable temperatures next summer in the meantime. Absolutely. Well, I know that my this is

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Well, I know that my this is something that my noble friend has has raised on numerous occasions. has raised on numerous occasions. Quite rightly, it is the reason why the Health and Safety Executive is the Health and Safety Executive is engaged and will be engaged in the consultation on improving guidance. Guidance, of course, already exists Guidance, of course, already exists for employers about how they should be taking action with respect to excessive heat, but it is. It is important that that wide range of different things that employers could do to support their workforce, the guidance, the additional guidance that the Health and Safety Executive produces is done in consultation, both with the representatives of workers and with employers, so that these are practical and proportionate ways in which we can achieve the objective that I think we all share, which is that people are able to go to work, be productive and be safe, even when temperatures are excessive.

15:45

Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)

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Under the boiler upgrade scheme, air to water heat pumps are air to water heat pumps are eligible for 7500 discounts. Air to air heat pumps, which can be used air heat pumps, which can be used for cooling as well as heating, are only eligible for £2,500. Why the

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difference? Having learnt more than I thought I was going to now about workplaces and excessive heat, I'm afraid that was not one of the bits of revision. So if it's OK, I will question.

15:45

Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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My Lord.

15:45

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

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There's a huge increase in people now working from home. Could the Minister also look at in terms of guidance for local councils, in particularly with the review of the National Planning Policy Framework, to make it easier for people to also be able to cool their homes, particularly given the in some council buildings, Council are making it very difficult to install outside air fans and drill into their external walls.

15:46

Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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I know that my my colleagues in the ministry in the MHC, LG are concerned about this issue. That's concerned about this issue. That's why. And they understand that as climate risks intensify, integrating adaptation into home integrating adaptation into home upgrade policy is essential to mitigate overheating and other climate related impacts, and the Warm Homes plan sets out our approach to retrofitting and climate adaptation. And over the course of this Parliament, we intend to introduce the most appropriate and cost effective passive cooling measures into our capital funded schemes focussed on improving the homes, particularly of low income consumers and those living in social housing, and we will prioritise higher impact, lower cost and lower regret measures to ensure best value for money.

The government is also exploring how to set stronger objectives for climate adaptation to improve preparedness for the impacts of climate change.

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My Lord, my Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for her answers. I declare an interest as chair of the National Building chair of the National Building Safety Regulator. I'm fairly sure that my noble friend the Minister is aware that alongside active is aware that alongside active measures to cool homes, there is much that can be done in building design. And we see that on the continent, in other very hot environments. Is now the time to prioritise a long, hard look at part O of the building regulations so that we future proof both commercial and domestic premises to ensure some sort of longevity as we face into what is, I think, by many objective measures, a climate

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crisis. Yeah. Well, I will I will go after this question and take a long, hard this question and take a long, hard look at part of the building safety building safety regulations. But my noble Lord, who is enormously noble Lord, who is enormously knowledgeable about this area, makes, I think, an important point. makes, I think, an important point. So not only do we need to take the sort of adaptation measures that I mentioned in the previous answer. Not only do we need to put in place the investment in our public buildings to enable suitable adaptation and to recognise the impacts of climate change.

But of course, I'm sure he's right that we also need to look at how our building regulations take into consideration the impacts of the sorts of heat waves that we've had this year as well. My Lords.

15:48

Baroness Spielman (Conservative)

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As the noble Lady, the Minister has said the workplace regulations already require employers to make sure that workplace temperatures are reasonable, which is a a are reasonable, which is a a pragmatic and flexible approach given the very different conditions and circumstances of different workplaces. So can the noble Lady, the Minister, confirm that the government will not impose further prescriptive regulations and that if it does act, it will do so by helping employers address serious concerns, for example, by making it less difficult and less expensive both to install and to run modern technologies for both heating and cooling, such as we enjoy in this chamber today.

15:49

Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Well, I think it's already the case that the Health and Safety Executive provide rightly for employers a wide range of different options for how they can fulfil their responsibility to ensure that the people in who they employ are able to work in in reasonable conditions, even in heat waves. And I think I've already made clear that the government thinks that this approach, potentially looking at the thresholds of action that might be necessary as workplaces get to different levels of heat, but but nevertheless, not mandating specific action related to a specific temperature is the most appropriate way to go forward.

15:50

Baroness Altmann (Non-affiliated)

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A private notice question on shareholder protection. Baroness Altmann. Altmann. >> My Lords. >> I have. >> I give notice that I have laid

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I give notice that I have laid the following private notice question, and the question is as follows. Baroness Altmann to ask His Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to protect shareholders in major British firms from being targeted by mini tender offers which seek to enable unauthorised firms to buy shares from vulnerable shareholders below their market value? My Lords, I, I would like to.

15:50

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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Answer first, my Lords, the >> Answer first, my Lords, the government is committed to. >> Promoting a culture of retail investment. Is it concerned by reports of shareholders being reports of shareholders being targeted by unsolicited offers to sell their shares below market value? Shareholders should exercise caution and carefully consider any such offer. The law is also clear communications relating to the buying and selling of shares must be fair, clear and not misleading, and we will continue to work with the FCA to monitor risks and ensure investors remain appropriately protected.

15:51

Baroness Altmann (Non-affiliated)

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I Lords apologies and I thank the Lord for his answer, but there is no way that the offer can be considered fair. It cannot be justified as being in the shareholders interest. It does not mention that Aviva has its own small shareholder dealing service, for example, and the loopholes in shareholder protection which are allowing this cynical exploitation of vulnerable elderly people who have often received some shares in the 1980s and 1990s, De-mutualisation and Nationalisations seems to be a real loophole that we need to close, and I would be grateful if the noble Lord, the Minister, might meet with me.

As the Financial Services and Markets Bill is going through the House at the moment to see if we can offer better protection. The courts have not protected the data, protection laws have not protected, and the FCA is merely looking at whether the law is broken. If not, we need to change that protection.

15:52

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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Will of course, be happy to meet the noble Baroness. I hope we have shown through the process of the the bill that we're currently taking. I think we're trying to rightsize our regulation, which is rightsize our regulation, which is appropriate in this particular instance. I won't comment too much on this particular case. The CEO of the FCA has committed to doing a thorough assessment, but we have to be really careful as well about what's regarded as a fair market price for products.

I think we need to understand this market assessment and the ability to make an offer, and making sure those financial promotions are appropriate is absolutely clear and within the remit of the FCA as well. I think, again, sometimes an under market price could be appropriate if there's no liquidity in that market. But I agree with the noble Baroness. We need to look at this specific instance to make sure there is no wrongdoing, and we believe the FCA has the right process to be able to do that.

15:53

Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)

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Lord Watts mini mini tenders, even by firms otherwise authorised even by firms otherwise authorised by the FCA, fall below the FCA's regulatory threshold. So in the future, can the Financial Ombudsman require remedy for an investor caught in a mini tender bait and switch, or do the clauses in the new Financial Services Bill requiring the falls to conform to FCA rules, in effect, permit the mis selling.

15:53

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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Correct? Of course, so many towns are not a distinct regulatory towns are not a distinct regulatory category at the moment. However, we believe currently that the activity associated with them falls within the existing regulatory framework, including financial promotion rules and market abuse legislation where those communications are misleading and the regulator absolutely has to act. So again, we remain open minded. This individual assessment, I think it's only right that the FCA does that assessment, and then we take it in to see whether the regulation is appropriate.

15:54

Lord Forbes of Newcastle (Labour)

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My Lords, given that these mini tender offers succeed precisely because some shareholders may not because some shareholders may not recognise that the price they are being offered is well below market value, and the offer may well be value, and the offer may well be put to them using high pressure sales techniques. Can my noble friend the Minister, give further consideration to assessing the levels of financial literacy amongst such shareholders, with a view to ensuring that the most those most at risk of exploitation are most clearly warned about these predatory practices?

15:54

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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Yeah, OK. My noble friend raises a really important point about financial education and literacy more generally. And again, I'm happy to to write the Noble, my noble friend and set out there a noble friend and set out there a number of initiatives across government that believe this is an important issue. And again, shareholders benefit from strong protections under the law and the regulations that are already exist. They have rights to information voting and participation in company decision making. However, there is also the digitisation digitisation task force recommendations that have just come out there again, trying to trying to appropriately highlight where information asymmetry exists and where we need to get better at protecting our some of our less sophisticated investors.

So I think if you look at the task force recommendations, there will be some specific recommendations around less sophisticated investors. But again, we remain open as a government. The FCA, the regulator, does take this seriously. I think we need to use this example as a way to tighten up and make sure those protections and educations are both appropriate.

15:55

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

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I wonder if the noble Lord, the Minister, could tell us what the Treasury is doing to collect the Treasury is doing to collect the stamp duty that should be chargeable on transactions, where there's documentation executed in the United Kingdom, and whether, in fact, that looking at that might represent some method of providing a toolkit to defeat these bad practices.

15:56

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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OK. The digitisation task force and the access to data has many and the access to data has many benefits. And I believe not only to, to, to promotions, but also to the issues of shares to understand where exactly the shareholders are on their cap table. So we're hopeful that that increased awareness of where shareholders are issued and where those transactions are should be covered by the current task force recommendations.

15:56

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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My Lords, my noble friend has identified one category of identified one category of vulnerable small shareholders. There is an increasing problem of scams of which smaller, vulnerable shareholders are most at risk. What cyber security is being extended to that category of of risk?

15:56

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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So the specific question about. >> Scams, scams, fraud, fraudulent activity where people masquerade as a company wanting to buy back the shares. Impersonation impersonation. And it's it's particularly online shareholding accounts which are

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vulnerable to this type of activity. OK. Part of the FCA's consumer duty is to ensure that consumers are well informed and protected. are well informed and protected. The Home Office has issued a policy around protection for particular scams, so I'm happy to write to the noble Lady with the specific duties on that. But the FCA has a consumer duty overall, and this would fall

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within that somewhat. My Lords, I agree with the Minister on the importance of financial literacy as he knows, but financial literacy as he knows, but we must ensure that the UK remains a global hub for private investment and capital. So can he confirm that the new Prime Minister will create a climate that helps and keeps businesses in Britain, encourages people to invest and list on the UK people to invest and list on the UK stock market, and reverses the damaging brain drain of entrepreneurs and skilled entrepreneurs and skilled professionals moving overseas.

Yeah.

15:57

Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)

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Well, again, I become well aware of the noble Baroness interest in this particular particular issue. I'm certainly not going to speak for a Prime Minister before he's appointed next week. What I would say this government, it really matters to this government. And my personal belief is there'll be a personal belief is there'll be a continuation of the strategy, which is we need to make sure that we're protecting entrepreneurs interest, making the economy grow, and making making the economy grow, and making the UK increasingly attractive, particularly relative to our global competitors.

Foreign investment. That's the job I do day to day, and That's the job I do day to day, and that's the job I hope to continue to be doing next Monday as well.

15:58

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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May I ask one further question? It seems to me that there are at least two issues at stake here. The

15:58

Baroness Altmann (Non-affiliated)

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first is that the data protection legislation allowed or forced Aviva legislation allowed or forced Aviva to send all the names and addresses of its shareholders on its register, even though this company only wished to write to a very small wished to write to a very small subsection of those. Again, that is a surely an issue for data protection legislation. And secondly, it seems to me that if the courts believe that a 20% discount to the share price of a major firm where there is no problem with trading and a small shareholder scheme by the company, it's very difficult to understand how this could possibly be justified as being bona fide business interests.

15:59

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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Again, the noble Baroness raises really important points. Then there are two distinct answers to the question. The first, the access to data. What the courts have declared data. What the courts have declared is that whether the. The. Through a regulated entity which any financial promotion has to go through, that regulated entity has to approve that offer. And if it is for proper business or proper promotion. I think what we're talking about here is an assessment of whether the actual offer that is made is appropriate.

That would be an assessment made by the FCA itself. I should say that, you know, companies can apply to the courts to refuse access where they believe the the the use of that data is not for a proper purpose. That's what happened in this particular case. Whether access should be granted is ultimately a matter for the courts. But the. Also, it's worth saying that shareholder registers and the ability to access them is also an issue. It is also important for the issuers of those shares as well.

So again, I think I think the issue of whether it is for proper use has to be approved by regulated entity, whether a below market price. We have to be really careful about assessing what a fair assessment of a market price is, depending on the liquidity of that asset. And ultimately. So again, we need to assess this particular case and see if it's an outlier or it's something specific to our market details. But again, I think it really is right for the courts to decide if it's for proper commercial purpose, then I believe that is correct.

16:00

Lord Davies of Brixton (Labour)

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It is slightly off advice and investment investors getting advice from AI apps such as Gemini, ChatGPT, Claude. Do these apps owe the client consumer duty?

16:01

Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)

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Well, again, hopefully. My noble friend saw the Chancellor's Mansion friend saw the Chancellor's Mansion House speech last night. Everyone was probably glued to it at 9:00, I imagine, as I was, but actually very much part of what this government and the FCA is trying to do is ensure we have the right size regulation for both a progressive and world leading market like the UK. It's really important that we don't constrain our financial system so significantly that we miss out on the opportunity that technology is going to provide for us as well.

But it's really important that the Chancellor and both the governor of the Bank of England talked last night about the importance of really making sure we have the right regulation for AI, whilst not rushing into over regulation, so that we miss out on the opportunity that technology is absolutely going to create for this country. So regulation has to be right sized, it has to be appropriate. But an emerging field like AI, we have to be careful not to strangle that opportunity at the same time.

16:02

Business of the House

My Lords. >> My Lords. >> We now come to an instrument previously debated in Grand Committee Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, Committee Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, Temporary Class Drug Order 2026, Lord Hanson of Flint. My Lords, I beg to move the motion. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say content. To the contrary, not content. The contents have it. Report of the Sporting

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Events Bill Baroness Twycross. My Lords. I beg to move that.

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I beg to move that. This report be now received.

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This report be now received. The question is that this report be now received, as many of that be now received, as many of that opinion will say content. To the contrary, not content. The contents have it in clause one, amendment have it in clause one, amendment

16:03

Legislation: Sporting Events Bill - report stage

one. Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay. Amendment two Lord Foster of Bath.

16:03

Lord Foster of Bath (Liberal Democrat)

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The amendment standing. >> In my name in this group are ones that I've moved before, and in doing so, moving them again, I draw attention to my register of interests, which shows that I am the chairman of Pearson Gambling Reform, and I'm also the chairman of the charity Action on Gambling. My Lords, the reason I bring these two amendments back today are these two groups of MPs back today is because I had a very useful meeting with the noble Lady, the Minister, and I'm very grateful for that.

I was able to explain in a little more detail the purpose of these two groups of amendment. So this is an opportunity to see whether the noble Lady, the Minister, has decided whether or not the government may, in one form or another, be rather more supportive of those amendments. My Lords, very briefly, the two groups, as I say, are one of the groups relates to the need, I believe, to ensure that all sporting venues where the activity is covered by this bill take place are clear of gambling, advertising, marketing and sponsorship.

And I will not rehearse all the arguments I've moved before. Suffice to say that many major international sporting bodies believe it is the right thing to do. That is what is happening currently with the World Cup. FIFA does not allow advertising in their stadia. The same is true for the Olympics or the Paralympics and many others, and they, among many other reasons, believe firmly that it would be wrong, particularly to allow children to grow up believing that the only way you can enjoy a sporting event is by participating in some betting on that particular event.

So, my Lord, I genuinely believe that this is something we should be adopting for all sporting activities in this country. But I certainly believe for international sporting events which do end up having a lot of gambling taking place as a result of them. And even though FIFA doesn't have advertising within the various venues, it is true to say that worldwide there is gambling on the games that are currently taking place that in total are believed to amount to half $1 trillion.

And that's just for the World Cup. Gambling is very, very big business, and it brings a great deal of harm to children and to many, many other people and to more statistics will be coming out from the Gambling Commission, and we'll be able to see how large that problem is within this country. My Lord, the second group of amendments relates to the illicit use of of the unlicensed use of sports data. Now, sports data is increasingly valuable. Sports clubs use the data to help with their training practices and so on.

But it's also very useful, not least for gambling organisations or indeed gambling syndicates who are trying to get money off the gambling companies. And at the moment, sports data is a. The sporting bodies enter into voluntary agreements with various companies that choose to do this work and allow those companies to collect the sports data and then through licences to sell it on to other bodies, including gambling companies. And that brings them in quite a lot of money. Unfortunately, those licences are currently very difficult to be able to police and all sorts of difficulties taking action against people who illegally or on use unlicensed data.

Now, my Lords, this is a very big issue and I have in front of me here the cut out, the screen print of a gambling website called L sports and L sports are not licensed to use data from this country. And yet they do. Indeed, they claim to cover 100 different sports, 3 million different fixtures in 15,000 leagues and 202,500 markets around the world. Now, these people who illegally or at least without a licence, are using data which they claim on their advertisements here, is being used by companies in this country like Sky, Bet and Bet.

So, my Lords, I'm deeply worried that these organisations are scraping data, denying money coming into sport organisations in this country to then feed into gambling companies which are using it for all sorts of purposes that they need it for. But even more worrying, my Lord is within all of their feet. They include advertisements for illegal gambling websites both in this country and that can be accessed around the world. And it's actually include the largest illegal website in the world, which is one X bet, which is actually supported by the Putin regime and helps fund the Putin regime.

My Lord, we shouldn't be supporting opportunities like that. But even worse, my Lord, I have another set and I'm drawing to a close because this, I think, is deeply worrying. Here is an example of a company that provides live streams of sporting events, major sporting events, including currently of the World Cup going on and throughout the live feeds that they provide to people who choose, for a variety of reasons, to get their coverage of those events on their feed.

It is absolutely full of illegal gambling websites. Now, the noble Lady, the Minister, is desperately keen, as rightly, she is, to try and do something about illegal gambling. I want to do something about that as well, but I also want to do something about the harm. Gambling in this country causes. The solution to it is very simple and that's what my amendment effectively does. And it says that we should make it illegal for anybody to use the data from companies if they do not have a licence.

It's a very simple solution and it will bring much easier to bring prosecutions against people who don't do that. So, my Lords, two groups of amendments, one to try and make venues. Advertisement free of gambling, advertisement free, and the second to stop people being able to use sports data without a

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licence. I think. Amendment proposed clause one,

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Amendment proposed clause one, page one. Line 12. Insert the words as printed on the master list.

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as printed on the master list. I thought that was very interesting. Amendments. Haven't read them. I'm sorry about that. Yeah. Very

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I'm sorry about that. Yeah. Very interesting. Worth worth the government considering. I wanted to speak on amendment 21. And I begin speak on amendment 21. And I begin by thanking Freddy Daly, who's worked with Cool Down in advertising has helped shape this

16:10

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)

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amendment. His research has highlighted the growing tension between local fossil fuel between local fossil fuel advertising bans and major sporting events. And I know the government is not proposing a national ban on is not proposing a national ban on fossil fuel advertising, even though I think they ought to. However, that argument was rejected However, that argument was rejected in committee, and I'm not trying to reopen that debate. This amendment takes a different approach. It's saying that we're a host city or local authority has adopted climate, environmental advertising policies that restrict fossil fuel advertising.

Major sporting events should respect those policies. After all, this bill is about creating a framework for hosting major sporting events. It should not become a way of bypassing decisions that have already been made by local authorities. We've got a very useful example. In 2027, Edinburgh will host the grand pas of the tour de France. Edinburgh City Council has already voted to ban high carbon advertising, including fossil fuel advertising, across council owned spaces. Sheffield has adopted a similar policy and other local authorities have or are considering doing the same.

Athletes should not become moving adverts for fossil fuel companies as they race past Edinburgh Castle and through the city streets. These councils have made democratic decisions about the kind of places they want to be. If they have decided that fossil fuel advertising has no place on their streets and public spaces, why shouldn't international sporting event be treated any differently? I don't need to repeat the reasons we brought up at Committee stage why this matters. This year's tour de France has already had to shorten a stage because of extreme heat.

For the first time here in the UK, running races have been running, races have been cancelled this week and other sporting events and transport affected. Climate change is already changing how major sporting events are organised. And yet sports, including cycling, continue to provide a valuable advertising platform for fossil fuel companies. And these adverts are no accident. Fossil fuel companies don't sponsor cycling cycling because they sell bikes. They do it because it allows them to associate their brands with healthy lifestyles, beautiful places and active travel, rather than with the filthy emissions that are driving our climate.

Emergency. Sports such as football and cycling were once full of tobacco sponsorship. As the evidence of harm grew, public attitudes changed, the rules changed and the sport adapted. And today that relationship feels completely out of step with the values that sports represents. I believe we're beginning to see the same shift in attitudes towards fossil fuel advertising. If sporting events are allowed to sidestep local advertising bans, they risk becoming one of the last remaining routes for fossil fuel companies to advertise in cities that have deliberately chosen to restrict that advertising.

We should not be asking cities to choose between hosting world class sporting events and sticking to their climate commitments, and this amendment

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makes sure they don't have to. My Lords. This is my first opportunity.

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This is my first opportunity. I'm sure we all want to send our best wishes for good luck to the England football team for their England football team for their major sporting event this evening, particularly to the midfielder Elliot Anderson, who, like all the Elliot Anderson, who, like all the best people, comes from Whitley Bay. My Lords, I made clear my views in My Lords, I made clear my views in committee that although I thank the noble Lord Lord Foster of Bath and the noble Lady Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb, that the amendments

16:14

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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that we consider then and have looked at again today don't meet the test of proportionality that I the test of proportionality that I think is important here. And my my view remains unchanged on that. I completely understand the concerns completely understand the concerns the noble Lord set out. But we must, of course, set that against the fact that many sporting events rely fact that many sporting events rely on sponsorship from. Gambling companies are perfectly legal companies are perfectly legal activity in this country, and must consider carefully how further restrictions on gambling sponsorship could affect British sport.

For instance, the England Football League, which whose title partner is Sky bet, or the England and Wales Cricket board, which has been forced to relax its own restrictions this very month because of a paucity of other commercial sponsors. So we do need to look at this carefully with the call ahead in committee. I did, however, express my concern that the scale of illegal and unlicensed gambling, which is much more likely to lead to societal problems because the companies involved don't incorporate the necessary protections and safeguards and have so much less care for their consumers.

In committee, I pressed the Minister on the consultation, which the government announced earlier this year on banning unlicensed gambling, sponsorship and advertising. So I was very pleased to see this very morning that she has published a written ministerial statement announcing that consultation, and look forward to hearing the views of those connected to it.

16:15

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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My Lords, recognising. >> The significant national event taking place this evening, I will also endeavour to keep my remarks brief, and I have no intention of brief, and I have no intention of taking the support stage into extra time. However, as we commence today's debate on the sporting events. But it's only fitting that we acknowledge this momentous occasion and the commendable of efforts of the England team. And I'd like to join the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay. And I'm certain you, your entire Lordships House, in wishing our national team the very best of luck this evening, wherever they might have been born.

Amendments two, three, four, 39, 40, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, and 36. In the name of the noble Lord. Lord foster, seek to regulate sports rights, provisions and gambling advertising. I'd like to thank the noble Lord for coming to the Department to discuss his position in more detail. Whilst it is not appropriate for the government to intervene in commercial sponsorship and advertising arrangements, we will not hesitate to take steps where necessary to ensure that these arrangements are socially responsible.

As the noble Lord noted, FIFA and the Olympics and Paralympics do have their own restrictions. The government has already implemented a number of reforms in this space. Just today, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, we launched our consultation on banning unlicensed sponsorship within sports and other sectors. This government is also committed to tackling illegal gambling through the Gambling Commission and our Illegal Gambling Task Force, with our most recent taskforce meeting taking place yesterday regarding the sharing of sports data with unlicensed operators, this government doesn't have any reason to believe that it's currently a significant issue.

However, we will not hesitate to consider this further through our task force if needed. I'd be happy to continue discussing with this with the noble Lord, Lord foster, including on the additional information he gave today. Amendment 20 would require regard to be given to the protection of children and vulnerable persons from harmful or aggressive advertising. When applying the advertising provisions to an event. The advertising offence in the Bill is designed to protect events owners commercial rights by preventing unauthorised advertising in a restricted zone.

The Advertising Standards Authority has many rules to help protect children from harmful or age restricted advertising. Advertisers should ensure that adverts do not include anything likely to result in physical, mental or moral harm to children or anything that encourages unsafe practices. On top of that, products such as alcohol and gambling should not, should, should not be promoted irresponsibly. They should always be promoted responsibly. Adverts must not, for example, link them to social success nor encourage recklessness. Moving on to amendment 21 for the noble Lady Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb, which would require advertising and restricted zone to comply with local authority policies, including those related to the climate or environment.

And the noble Lady gave some powerful examples of the impact of climate change on sporting events. Currently, I wish to assure the noble Lady that any advertising activity undertaken in a restricted zone will have to be in accordance with existing legislation and other regulatory requirements, including local authority policies. Advertisers will also need to consider the Committee of Advertising Practice and Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice Codes rules on environmental claims. I therefore, with these points in mind, ask the noble Lord Lord Foster of Bath to withdraw his amendment.

16:19

Lord Foster of Bath (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, can I thank the noble Lady, the Minister, for her response, and also the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, for his Lord Parkinson, for his contribution. And just say to the noble Lady, Lady Jones, that moves come, that given that the IOC always requires a sustainability requirement in their plans, I find it slightly strange that that's not included in the bill before us today, but my Lords, I. There is no question whatsoever. I desperately hope that the England team will tonight do infinitely better than I've done, despite all of my training and my work up before this performance.

The noble Lady. The Minister had just provided a stone wall to me, and I have lost at this stage. But, my Lords, there's always other rounds, and I look forward to those. And with that I wish the team the very best of luck. I will enjoy watching it tonight, hopefully in an arena that has no advertisements, no marketing, no advertising, and I hope that they do better than I did. With that, I

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beg leave to withdraw the amendment. It's a pleasure that the amendment is withdrawn. The amendment is withdrawn. The amendment is by leave withdrawn. Amendment three Lord Foster of Bath amendment four. Lord Foster,

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amendment five, Lord Parkinson, amendment six, Lord Parkinson. My Lords, I've Retabled.

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My Lords, I've Retabled. Amendments six. Eight. Nine. 41 and 42. Just to press the government a little further on how parliamentary

16:20

Amdt 6

accountability will be guaranteed in the application of the new framework. Amendment six introduces a maximum period for which the

16:21

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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a maximum period for which the framework can be applied. Amendments eight and nine ensure that all regulations. Applying the that all regulations. Applying the framework or modifying the application of it are subject to the affirmative procedure. And I am the affirmative procedure. And I am grateful to the noble Baroness, the Minister, for taking on board the points I and others made in committee and the criticisms of the committee and the criticisms of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships' House and tabling her own amendment seven amendments 41 and 42, are consequential and would ensure that financial assistance can only be provided by an appropriate national authority if the corresponding legislature has approved that financial assistance by positive resolution in committee.

I cited in May in the importance of this matter, and those words still stand. I do think this if the if the noble Lady is not willing to accept it today is something the government should continue to consider when the bill heads to another place. But the most important amendments in this group, I believe, are amendments 10 to 13, tabled by the noble Lord Lord Addington and by my noble friend Lady Evans of Bowes Park, with the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, a full house of political and non-political benches.

They've also attracted cross-sector support from sporting bodies, the Sport and Recreation Alliance, the Lawn Tennis Association and the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club for Wimbledon, the England and Wales Cricket board, the Football Association, the RNA for the Open Championship, the Rugby Football League and Union. And I'm pleased to see my noble friend Lord Kane, a non-exec of the former and a former board member for the Rugby League World Cup in 2021. Behind me, they've been joined by UK Athletics, the London Marathon and by Silverstone, the hosts of the British Grand Prix.

And I draw Your Lordship's attention to my register of interests. I was one of more than 570 000 people who attended the Formula One events at Silverstone just a few days ago, the largest ever event in Formula One, and unlike so many of the other host nations that hold Grand Prix, the Silverstone does that. Without state funding. All of those sporting bodies do a tremendous job delivering huge sporting events that bring great delight to those who watch them, that inspire people to become more active and involved in sport, and which contributes so much to our economy here in the UK.

So I do hope the noble Baroness, the Minister, will accept the amendments that the noble Lords have put forward, and I look forward to hearing them speaking for them. These may not be the perfect drafting, but I do think if we can put those in the. They could be improved in another place, and it would be very important to broaden the bill. As the noble Baroness Goldie Grey Thompson said at Second Reading, it would make this bill a bit bolder in a very important way.

If the government is not minded to support them, then these benches certainly will do, and I understand the government see the the the package of amendments 10 to 13 as connected. I look forward to the debate, and I beg to move. Amendment six.

16:24

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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Amendment proposed clause two, page two. Line 18. Insert the words page two. Line 18. Insert the words as printed on the Marshalled List, sir. >> Well.

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Let me thank the noble Lord Parkinson for reading out the list of the groups who have backed it. I was always terrified I was going to was always terrified I was going to miss 1 or 2. Well, well, just take it as read that you got it right. The the amendments I put down here and I must congratulate you, Ulysses Abbott, in my whip's office for actually coming out, helping with the drafting of this effect, getting down here. Basically, the government has got a very good idea here.

Expand it to fit in a few more events that are part of our sporting and cultural heritage. You've done something good here. Enjoy it. You don't often get this much support for a government idea coming round saying do something. And if you can't embrace this, I mean a little generosity of spirit and say, yes, it's good. I also say the Baroness Evans, who was actually put shui the cherry on the cake with her amendment, which actually just saying the other events, but only if they ask for it.

You know, I think that is reasonable. You may think there is there may be 1 or 2 steps. They may want to stay out. I should imagine most won't. But actually allowing them that that difference, I think is quite a good thing. My Lords, all of us tonight are going to. Even those who don't regard the beautiful game as their most beautiful game, I'm afraid that's me. Do actually wish England well tonight, and I think I could expand on this at considerable length, but I would actually like to leave this chamber with as many friends as I came in with, so I will sit down.

16:26

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Conservative)

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I rise to move. Amendment 13, which is supported by the noble which is supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey Thompson, the noble Lord Lord Addington, and the noble Lord Lord Foulkes. I want to noble Lord Lord Foulkes. I want to also speak in support of amendments ten, 11 and 12, to which I've added my name before doing so. Although it's an unpaid position, I declare my interest as a board member of the London Marathon Foundation. My Lords, as we've heard, these amendments have a simple aim to address what many of us in this House believe is a significant gap in the bill, and which we've obviously covered in our previous debates.

Taken together, they seek to widen the definition of events to which the framework provisions may apply, so that major established UK sporting events events woven into the fabric of our national life are not excluded from the potential benefits the framework can provide. My amendment, I believe, seeks to address this gap in a proportionate way by allowing a sporting event organiser to request that the Secretary of State apply provisions maybe one, maybe a number from the sporting event framework to their event.

And my Lords, this amendment is deliberately modest. It places no obligation on the government to extend the framework automatically. It creates no automatic entitlement. In other words, these amendments simply create an opportunity, not an obligation. And I'm very grateful for the support of the co-signatories of my amendment and those of the noble Lord Lord Addington. And I'm afraid I am going to repeat the list of sporting organisations that have supported our amendments, because I do believe it does show how they are wanted across the sector.

So we are very grateful for the support expressed by the All England Lawn Tennis Club, the ECB, the FA, the London Marathon, Silverstone, the RNA, the Rugby Football League, the Rugby Football Union, the Sport and Recreation Alliance and UK Athletics all have all have written in support of our amendments. And as they state, the bill establishes enabling legislation, any use of the provisions in the sporting framework would still require agreement of the Secretary of State following a request from the relevant body, and that decision would then be subject to the affirmative approval in Parliament.

My Lords, opportunities for primary legislation in this area do not arise often, so we truly believe it would be sensible to include these powers now so that if a compelling case was made in future, governments are able to act quickly and effectively, and the sporting organisations themselves have made very clear, and I quote, we envisage that any request submitted by a sporting event would be accompanied by supporting evidence, explaining both the challenges faced and the benefits that would result from the provisions being applied.

I would like to thank the Minister and her officials for their engagement on this issue, and I know that they've had all also had constructive discussions across the sector, and I recognise the government is sympathetic to the arguments for extending the framework to major, regular UK sporting events that are likely to be of international interest and to bring significant social and economic benefits to the United Kingdom, or part of it. For that reason, we had hoped, with fingers crossed, that the government might have been in a position to bring forward its own amendment at this stage, but unfortunately that has not proved possible.

My Lords, I believe this gap must be addressed before the Bill leaves the House. I do hope that the government will be able to accept these amendments or commit to bring their own forward at Third Reading, but if not, I will be supporting Lord Addington if he calls a division, and I'm grateful that the government, as my noble friend said, has agreed. My amendment 13 is complementary so that this debate can continue in the Commons. My Lords, this is ultimately a question of future proofing the Bill.

These amendments do not guarantee support for any event, nor do they require the government to exercise these powers. They simply ensure that Ministers can respond where there is a demonstrable public interest in doing so. Our world class, regular UK sporting events generate billions for the economy, attract international audiences, showcase the best of us and inspire participation across the country. This bill provides an opportunity to support those events more effectively, but to do so, we must ensure they are not left outside the framework it creates.

These amendments offer a modest, proportionate and practical means of achieving that objective, and I hope, along with an England win tonight, the government feels able

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to accept them. I have my name attached to

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I have my name attached to amendment 11 and 13. I remind you Lordships chamber of my register interest. I am Chair of Sport Wales interest. I am Chair of Sport Wales and with that I sit on UK sport. We have a rich history of organising have a rich history of organising sports events in this country and the noble Lady Baroness Evans of Bowes Park is is absolutely right.

16:31

Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)

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Bowes Park is is absolutely right. We don't get much of an opportunity to discuss sport, but what I think we need with this bill is some flexibility around what we're trying to do. The oldest major event, sports betting has changed quite a lot for many, many cycles. Bidding for the Olympics and Paralympics, we bid seven years out. That got changed when the international landscape changed and the IOC have moved from that to bidding. Sorry, announcing several games at one go. And I think if you look at what happened with Commonwealth Games, where Australia pulled out and then Canada ultimately pulled out of one of the games, we've got to be really fleet of foot if we want to bid for these games.

And as someone who's worked in sport and been in sport for a very long time, I don't think we should underestimate the power of these governing bodies coming together. They're very wide ranging. They work on quite different events, but the fact that they all agree that these amendments are needed, I think is, is really important. And we we really should be listening to them. I basically just want to say, I think these amendments are really important in terms of what we're doing, and I look forward to the

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minister's response. Can I first of all say. Like all.

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Like all. Sensible Scotsmen, I'll be supporting England tonight? And can I say to.

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And can I say to. Lord Addington, soccer is my main interest as a former chairman of Heart of Midlothian Football of Heart of Midlothian Football Club, so I've got a particular interest this evening. I also

16:32

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Labour)

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interest this evening. I also support this amendment and for all the reasons I gave at Second Reading and for the excellent reasons, put in the excellent speech by the noble Lady, Baroness Evans. And. However, I've had an opportunity over the last few days to discuss this issue with my noble friend, the Minister. She's given me the assurance that this will be looked at over the recess and consideration, given sympathetic consideration given to the points in this amendment, and accordingly, I hope we won't divide the House this evening because we need to look forward to getting finished before the witching hour, which we all know.

16:33

Lord Holmes of Richmond (Conservative)

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My Lords, I rise briefly to support all the amendments in this group, particularly amendment 13. In the name of my noble friend Baroness Evans, she made an eloquent speech, but really she eloquent speech, but really she covered it in three words opportunity, not obligation. It's coming home, my Lord. These events are already here year in, year out, developing, delivering, sporting, economic, social, place based growth. One might say, my Lords, the very definition of a framework, an enabling piece of legislation, opportunity, not obligation.

16:34

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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My Lords, in relation to amendment six, tabled by noble amendment six, tabled by noble Lords, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay and Lord Markham, I'm sure your Lordships' House will be pleased to hear that the Bill already goes hear that the Bill already goes further than the amendment proposed by the noble Lords. Within the provisions in the Bill, advertising trading provisions can be placed for no more than ten days before the beginning of an event and end no later than five days after the event concludes.

I hope these clear limitations on the face of the Bill reassure noble Lords. Turning to amendment seven 5051, tabled in my name, these seek to ensure all regulations applying the framework provisions are subject to the affirmative procedure, except in urgent cases where the made affirmative resolution procedure would be used in bringing forward these government amendments. We have listened to the concerns of the House, noting amendments eight and nine tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Parkinson Lord Markham and the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.

These amendments, my Lords, ensure Parliament can debate regulations whilst preserving flexibility to accommodate unforeseen and last minute changes. I hope these amendments tabled in my name reassure noble Lords of the importance we place on ensuring appropriate parliamentary scrutiny, whilst providing some flexibility to accommodate unforeseen changes. Moving on to amendments 11, sorry ten, 11, 12 and 13, tabled by the noble Lord Lord Addington, my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and the noble Ladies Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Grey-Thompson.

I think the noble Lord Lord Horam summed it up when he said that we have a huge number of events in this country already. However, this government recognises there's more that we can do to support the whole major event sector. And I can confirm today the government's intention for the major event strategy to be published by the spring. My Lords, throughout the bill's passage, a number of noble Lords have raised whether the remit of the Sporting Events Bill could be extended to include recurrent major events in the UK.

I am hugely grateful for the time noble Lords have taken to talk me through the rationale as to how this could support our fabulous events, from Wimbledon to the British Grand Prix at Silverstone and the London Marathon. As the noble Lady Baroness Evans of Bowes Park has said indicated, these discussions have been hugely constructive. I've also heard directly from event organisations who are keen to explore this further, and we're continuing the discussions between event

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organisers and officials A. And Ministers over the summer,

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A. And Ministers over the summer, and I recognise the strength of feeling on this. It isn't always the case that a government Minister is told to expand the scope of a Bill, and we do recognise. The sentiment behind this is one of supporting events in this. In this supporting events in this. In this country to reassure the noble Lord Lord Addington, the government sees merit in exploring the idea further, and. We are. As my noble Lord Lord Foulkes said, committed to continuing the conversation over the summer both from noble Lords and with event organisers.

I regret, however, I cannot at this point commit to a specific outcome of these discussions. There are a number of considerations we need to work through carefully, in particular around how proportionate it would be to potentially restrict fair competition for small businesses and on an ongoing basis. And, for instance, who would enforce regulations. I understand that there is concern that events such as the Rugby League World Cup or the women's T20 Cricket World Cup would be out of scope. Noble Lords would appreciate that the nature of the framework means that we expect particular events will be considered on a case by case basis, but I do want to assure your Lordships House that we do expect both cricket and rugby league World Cups are exactly the type of event that could meet the conditions.

I do recognise the good intent of noble Lords in relation to this matter, but I am very keen that we get this right and to make sure that any potential unintended consequences are considered before we make a decision in this regard. Turning to amendments 41 and 42 in the name of noble Lords Lord Parkinson and Lord Markham, the government fully agrees that when it comes to public funds, transparency and accountability is non-negotiable. However, these amendments are unnecessary. They are already robust mechanisms in place.

The supply and appropriation legislation enables Parliament to debate and improve spending plans, including allocations for major sporting events. As an accounting officer, DCMS Permanent Secretary is accountable to Parliament to ensure departmental spending on major sporting events meets managing public money. Principles of regularity, propriety, value for money and feasibility. Over the past decade, my Lords, the United Kingdom has secured and delivered almost 150 major sporting events, many with the support of government investment. Therefore, requiring such scrutiny could place a disproportionate burden on parliamentary resources and risk delaying the provision of urgent financial assistance.

I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, to withdraw his amendment.

16:39

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, the Minister, for that response and for the time that she has made available to noble Lords from across the House. On the other amendments we've discussed, and indeed, with many of the sporting bodies that are involved. It's for Lord Addington and my friend Lady Evans to decide what to do on their amendment. For my part, we would be inclined, in normal circumstances, to take the noble Baroness word for it, for she is a woman of her word, and she has worked hard on this.

But we find ourselves in unusual circumstances where, you know, she, the Secretary of State and the Sports Minister, and another place may be in different positions by the time the Bill heads to the Commons. So I do think your Lordships' House would be well advised to put something in this bill to reflect the cross-party and cross House support that we've had on this issue and the strength of feeling, and to leave that as a work in progress. But I'll leave that to the noble Lord Lord Addington, but reiterate that we will support him if he chooses to divide on this important issue.

I thank the noble Lady for her answers to the amendment I tabled, and I beg leave to withdraw

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amendment six. Is it your Lordships pleasure that amendment six be withdrawn? It that amendment six be withdrawn? It is by leave withdrawn. We come to amendment seven. My Lords, if amendment seven is agreed to, I amendment seven is agreed to, I cannot call amendment 8 or 9 because of pre-emption. Order. because of pre-emption. Order. Amendment seven. Question is that Amendment seven. Question is that amendment seven be agreed to. Many of that opinion are, say, content to the contrary, not content.

The contents have it. Amendments eight and nine. I cannot call amendment ten Lord Addington.

16:41

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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Lords. >> Noble Lord Parkinson has clearly been reading over my shoulder on been reading over my shoulder on some point here. I'm afraid if we knew that we were dealing with the same team, with the same leadership, same team, with the same leadership, maybe we'd have considered not voting on this. And it's. And I feel a little churlish, but only a little. My Lords, we've actually got other amendments in here which have agreed the affirmative procedure, I should have said it earlier, is welcome, but I think we need something on the face of the bill.

It's something to come back at Third Reading. I wouldn't be voting, but we haven't received that assurance. I'm afraid I have to. I beg leave to test the opinion

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of the House. The question is that this amendment be agreed to, as many of amendment be agreed to, as many of that say, content to the contrary, not content content. The question will be decided by a division. I will advise the House when voting will advise the House when voting is opened. Voting is now open.

16:42

Division

The The question The question is The question is that amendment one be agreed to, as many

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of that opinion will say, content to the contrary, not. Content. Not content.

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Not content. The contents will go to the left by the bar and the. Not content by The question is that amendment ten be Voted Voted content Voted content 212 Voted content 212 not Amendment Amendment 11 Amendment 11 Lord Amendment 11 Lord Addington, Amendment 11 Lord Addington, which I believe is a consequential amendment question, is that amendment 11 be agreed to those who are of that opinion say content to the contrary, not content the contents have not have it.

Amendment 12, which I also believe is consequential. The question is amendment 12 be agreed to, as many of that opinion will say, content to the contrary, not content contents have it. Amendment 13, which I also believe is consequential. Lord Addington. Back to move. The question is that amendment 13 be agreed to, as many of that opinion will say content. To the contrary, not content. The contents have it. Amendment 14 Baroness Sater Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb.

16:53

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)

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I want to congratulate the Minister first for the speed at which she's going through her responses to us. It was absolutely admirable. I will try to be brief. I have two amendments in this group, and I also have seconded amendment 48 by the noble Lord Lord Whitty, which I will mention briefly, but not trying to upstage him at all. So. 14 when we debated climate duty amendments in committee, the Minister said that there was no need to mention the environment or climate in the bill because those were already captured by the term social benefit in clause three.

Now, I, I have got to admit, I find this rather difficult to follow. If the government agree that environmental and climate impacts are important, and the Minister said that they agreed with the spirit of the amendments, then I simply don't see why they can't be named explicitly in the Bill. It seems quite a leap to suggest that climate and environmental considerations are somehow covered by the word social. These are significant issues in their own right. They deserve to be recognised as such, not left.

This implication, which even I think is vague. We've heard that sporting events can have a considerable environmental footprint, but they also have the opportunity to leave a positive legacy through cleaner transport, more sustainable infrastructure and better environmental standards. If, as the Minister suggested in committee, environmental and climate benefits are already intended to form part of these decisions, then I really would hope the government will see no difficulty in making that clear on the face of the bill. Please, please just do it.

Please. You've been so conciliatory to other to other peers. And then amendment. What was that? Begging too much. But, you know, I'm trying to get progress here. OK. 35 the transport plans now, this is from Fran James, founder of football and Climate Change newsletter. I welcome that at Committee stage, the Minister was clear that the government support the principle of sustainable transport and want spectators to reach major sporting events safely, efficiently and, where possible by lower carbon modes of transport.

With that agreement, the question before us is whether that principle should be reflected on the face of the Bill, and I believe it should. This amendment recognises that every event, venue and transport network will be different. It ensures that environmental, sustainable sustainability, climate mitigation and climate resilience are considered when transport plans are drawn up. We know that spectator travel is one of the biggest environmental impacts of major sporting events at the Birmingham Commonwealth Games, spectator travel accounted for more than half the event's carbon footprint at Euro 24.

Fan travel made up an even larger proportion of emissions. But we also know that this can be done successfully. Euro 24 demonstrated what effective low carbon transport planning can achieve. Around 81% of fans travel to venues by public transport. Hundreds of thousands of additional rail journeys were made possible through inter venue travel arrangements, and fewer than 5% of fans travel by car. Climate change is already affecting transport infrastructure. The government's own transport adaptation strategy acknowledges that extreme heat, flooding and other climate impacts are creating risks for our networks, and a major sporting event concentrates thousands of people in particular places at particular times, meaning that a single climate related disruption can quickly become a major problem.

So that's why resilience needs to be considered at the planning stage. It's not new either. FIFA's hosting requirements for the World Cup 2031 and 2035 require hosts to encourage low carbon transport infrastructure, a key indicator in the Paris 2024 sustainability structure strategy was the proportion of venues accessible by active travel, public transport and UEFA delivered Euro 24 under its environmental, social and governance strategy. So this amendment aims to give the UK a clear statutory basis for the standards that major sporting events already expect.

The Climate Change Committee's latest assessment of UK climate risks risk highlights that flooding, subsidence, wind and heat are increasing risk to the transport system and that climate change impacts will increasingly pose risks to the operation of major events, requiring the person preparing a transport plan to have regard to resilience is a practical way to address that risk, without losing the flexibility planners need. The climate crisis is shaping the future of sport. Whether we acknowledge it or not. Our transport plans need to reflect that reality.

Now, that is the amendment that I really would like to divide the House on. And in view of the pressure that's on all of us, to actually finish this bill as quickly and efficiently as possible. I will not divide the House, but I bitterly resent that it hasn't been taken up yet by the government, because I think it is just so important and so obvious. I don't understand why they don't accept it. On the amendment 48 from Lord Whitty, we already know that climate change is changing sport.

The extreme heat this summer has disrupted major sporting events and. And there are always concerns for athletes and spectators. And ignoring those realities doesn't make them disappear. So the climate crisis is shaping the future of sport, whether we acknowledge it or not. And it really is time for the government's strategy to catch up.

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Amendment proposed clause three, page three. Line eight. Leave out all economic and insert economic,

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environmental and climate. Threats. Yes. Thank you. Amendment proposed clause three, page three. Line eight leave out all economic and insert the words

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as printed. I pretty much agree.

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I pretty much agree. Very much with what Baroness O'Loan has already said, and as O'Loan has already said, and as somebody who was present at every age 60 years ago at every England match in the World Cup, including the Cup final and including the somewhat controversial Argentina

16:59

Lord Whitty (Labour)

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somewhat controversial Argentina game, I do not want to hold up the house for very long, but I do have amendment 48 as an Baroness Shah said. And I have engaged with the Minister and I think are very much for what she has said and for the meeting that she and her staff held with me yesterday. It wasn't quite the explicit endorsement of what amendment 48 requires that I was hoping for, but I think I can reasonably deduce that the Minister is saying that when the major events strategy emerges, it will be clear that environmental sustainability, including explicitly climate change mitigation and adaptation, will be referred to there, and that there will necessarily be the work that they're already doing will appear in their approach to major sporting events.

My Lords, I don't know why that can't be made explicit on the face of the Bill. As one who supported very much the Climate Change Act's provisions at the time, I'm assuming that I can stretch the minister's words to say that what they are doing will, in effect, be what is required by the Climate Change Act. I do hope so, and I do hope that other departments do the same, because simply saying we're doing it anyway is not enough to ensure that sporting events, for the reasons that the noble Baroness, Baroness Jones has already spelt out, are seen as important parts of our attitude towards climate change, and that the major sporting organisations Sport England, Sport England and Sport UK, do actually reflect that.

I think that's what the Minister is saying to me. I'd like her to confirm it and therefore we're not. I'm not going to move my amendment tonight for obvious reasons, but I would have liked to get the government to be slightly more explicitly forthcoming. But I thank the Minister for her engagement. In any case.

17:02

Lord Harlech (Conservative)

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My Lords. >> My Lords. >> I rise to speak briefly to amendment 47 in my name, which would place a clear time bound duty on the relevant local authority to keep the areas around a sporting event clean during the event and to clear them within a fixed period afterwards. I will not detain the house with the full catalogue I set out in committee. Noble Lords will recall the morning after Arsenal's title parade, where I described the residential streets strewn with broken glass bottles and cans and bins overflowing left in that state for the better part of two days.

The. After the parade itself was a joy. The aftermath was was a disgrace and it was avoidable. In committee the noble Baroness. The Minister was courteous and I think, sympathetic. However, sadly, I didn't get any of the follow up meetings that other noble Lords did. The noble Baroness. The Minister agreed with me about the rapid clean up after Notting Hill Carnival. So these things can be achieved with the right resource and planning. And I'm grateful for that. But when I asked how the bill would guarantee it, the noble Baroness May Minister offered me three existing powers.

And I want to explain very briefly why none of them answer the case. So section 89 of the Environmental Protection Act, that duty binds only so far as is practicable, and the code beneath it grants authorities a recovery window in which the street may lawfully remain filthy. It is this very regime that allowed my neighbourhood to stay as it was. The noble Baroness, the Minister pointed next to the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. But those are available only for conduct of a persistent or continuing nature only after a written warning.

And they are appealable to deal with a parade of tens or hundreds of thousands. The government basically offers a power designed for the neighbour who will not clear up their front garden. Lastly, the noble Baroness, the Minister pointed to the litter conditions that may be attached to traders authorisations, but those reached the litter of a licensed stall, not the crowd. And that's the whole problem. The noble Baroness. The minister's best example was Brent Council, which cleans diligently around Wembley. But Brent chooses to do that.

Islington chose not to, and that contrast is the entire argument for a statutory flaw. My amendment is for the residents who do not happen to live in a borough that chooses to do the right thing. So I've redraughted my amendment to meet every point. The Minister, the noble Baroness the Minister made. It applies in addition to section 89, so it duplicates nothing. It writes in the timescale. The code emits clean within 12 hours and broken glass within three. It covers processions and assemblies on the public highway, and it answers the resourcing question the normal Baroness Sater Minister, rightly raised by allowing the cost to be met centrally or recovered from the organiser.

So I'd like a commitment in principle and a meeting before Third Reading to to discuss this in more detail, whether I consider dividing or not.

17:05

Baroness Boycott (Crossbench)

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Briefly, as I have signed my name to amendment 48, which seems to me should be on the face of the to me should be on the face of the bill, especially as we are living through what we're living through right now. At the moment. The UK right now. At the moment. The UK government report in 2025 exploring the financial implications of climate change on grassroots sports, climate change on grassroots sports, estimated that climate related disruptions already cost grassroots sport in the UK 320 million annually, and 200 million of that just goes in repairs and maintenance and 120 million in lost revenue from cancelled matches.

And it is every age group that gets affected in 2022. On July the 19th, a 23 year old playing cricket in Durham when the temperature soared to 37 degrees, ended up in an ice bath and in hospital because he was just hit by the heat. And we suffer from heat in this country just as much and as people in hotter countries, because we are not used to it. What's important now is to use sport. The FIFA World Cup is the most watched event in history, and at the moment, 14 of the stadiums face climate risks.

And by 2050, 90% of stadiums could face dangerous heat and 11 host stadiums could face completely unplayable conditions. But it is a real risk. But football itself is starting to adapt and we're seeing cooling breaks, heat protocols and schedule changes. But the reality is that this hits the highest levels down to the grassroots. Pitches are damaged, seasons are disrupted, water scarcity, vaccination and community clubs face rising costs from climate related damage. And this is about the future of the entire football system, not to mention other sports, because it's local parks, it's schools, amateur clubs, it's academies, it's national leagues.

It's all the things we want to foster in a country that prides itself on community groups and prides itself, especially on football. And I think sport has a unique role to play in helping drive climate action, because it can, on a practical level, do all sorts of things. But emotionally, sport and particularly football, is one of our most powerful story telling platforms. Already, fans of the big clubs want 86% say they want clubs to speak out on climate action, and 91% say they would even feel even prouder of their clubs if they took proper action.

And the thing is, we know what to do. We just need to move fast. We need investment in sports grounds. We need to protect people from future climate change. We need public information. We need shade, we need trees. The stuff we know. This will improve the quality of life for everybody. And sport is a brilliant way through. And quite honestly, if sport doesn't give that kind of message, what kind of message does sport give? It is meant to represent the health and the best of this country.

Everyone will be watching this football match. We need to act on this because it tells the right story that our government ought to be telling.

17:08

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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This is an interesting set of amendments. I think the one most appealing one is the Lord Hollick. appealing one is the Lord Hollick. Actually, in the context of this bill, there was a general principle here which might be better addressed in in other bits of legislation that go further. Go on. legislation that go further. Go on. But I would be interested to hear what the government have to say. And. But I do think this is something which is the start of a process, not the end of it.

So let's hear.

17:08

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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My Lords. I too, am very glad >> My Lords. I too, am very glad that my noble friend Lord Harlech has returned to this issue on report. He can't be the only Islington resident who was dismayed by the aftermath of the the parade by the aftermath of the the parade he mentioned, but he, I'm sure, was given a far greater thought from a legal and legislative perspective than any other, and I'm sure all other residents of the borough will be grateful to him for returning to this.

In such a dogged and forensic manner, and I hope the noble ask the Minister will take that on board and be able to give him some further thoughts, both today and in the meeting that he. He seeks as a noble Lord. Lord Addington says this is a question of what is appropriate for this bill. And while I appreciate the comments from the noble Baroness Hayter Jones and others, I do think, as we heard in committee, so many International Federations and event organisers do now expect very high environmental commitments from those as part of bidding for hosting major sporting events.

And if our national associations want to apply for such events, then they will have to comply with these ever more ambitious sustainability and environmental requirements. So I'm still not convinced that this bill is the right place to write those in. But I do agree with her on the importance of public transport, both from an environmental aspect as well as from an accessibility point of view, and making it easier for more people to get to these sporting events.

17:10

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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My Lords, turning first to >> My Lords, turning first to amendments 14 and 48 in the name of the noble Ladies Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Boycott, and my noble friend Lord Whitty, the government fully agrees that environmental sustainability sustainability should be considered sustainability should be considered at every stage in the planning and delivery of our major sporting events. I do note the example by the noble Lady Baroness Boycott. We genuinely recognise that there is an issue that needs to be dealt with, and this debate is clearly in the context of an extended heat wave.

My Lords, the Bill explicitly provides for the framework to be applied. A sporting event must be likely to bring social or economic benefits to the United Kingdom or to a part of it. Your Lordships' House may be pleased to know that social benefit here encompasses consideration of environmental and climate impacts. Where relevant. I am sorry, I am, of course, delighted to. Will be delighted to meet the noble Lady, Baroness Jones, and very happy to meet to discuss this further and.

And others as well. I have also shared throughout the Bill's passage the important measures in place to integrate sustainability into our major sporting events from the outset, from the Gold Framework guiding organisers bidding for government funding to non-negotiable requirements in our spending processes. However, I have heard the strong concerns and valuable insights raised across the House and recognise that there's always room to do more, especially on matters as important as our environment. That is why I'm pleased to be able to give a firm commitment today.

As noted by my noble friend Lord Whitty, that the environment will be a clear and stated consideration as is developed as this government develops a major events strategy. So not only for major sporting events, but for all major events hosted across the country, should the evidence gathered suggest we can do more when it comes to major sporting events, we will be guided by that data, reflect on how and where we go further. In the meantime, I am happy to confirm that sustainability will be a key consideration within the community programme for Euro 2028, the first event this Bill will support, as well as taking steps to reduce the event's impact on the environment, the euros Community Programme will actively seek opportunities to build climate resilience into its broader ambition to support communities.

I appreciate the noble, noble Lords interest in the adaptation reporting power. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has recently consulted on how best to target these powers and are in touch with all relevant departments, though we are clear that the decision to apply it should remain at the discretion of the Secretary of State. Turning to amendment 35, also in the name of the noble Lady, Baroness Jones, major sporting events vary significantly in scale, location, venue layout, spectator profile and the transport network serving them.

An appropriate requirement in one case may be unnecessary, disproportionate, impractical in another. We believe the most effective approach to tackle transport concerns would be through collaborative, integrated planning and delivery, tailored to the specific needs of each event. Turning now to amendment 47, tabled by the noble Lord Lord Harlech, there is no question that the cleanliness in the environments which we hold our major sporting events is vital. I am very happy to meet the noble Lord. I did meet a number of noble Lords who took up the offer, both in the chamber and in my all peer's letter.

I'm sorry, however, that we haven't met yet, and I'm happy to make sure that my office gets in touch with the noble Lord before Third Reading so that we can meet before Third Reading. However, the plan, going back to the cleanliness point and the point raised by the noble Lord in his amendment and in his speech, both in this debate and in the Committee stage debate. This is why I set out in committee. Local authorities have duties to support this. Under the Environment Protection Act 1998.

This is in addition to measures such as the Code of Practice on Litter and Refuse Statutory Guidance and the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 20 2014 confers power to help them tackle persistent, unreasonable behaviour negatively affecting communities. To add to those duties would require local authorities to substantively alter their operational approach and as set out in the New Burdens doctrine, this requires proper assessment given the potential for significant additional costs ultimately borne by the taxpayer. We believe a holistic approach is more appropriate.

In light of these reassurances, I hope that the noble Lady, Baroness Jones, will withdraw her amendment.

17:15

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)

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I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this particular group, and I do accept that Lord Harlech the noble Lord Lord Harlech amendment is a very sensible one, and every, every every councillor ought to to think along those lines, but I am incredibly disappointed at the lack of support for environmental and climate change measures from this side of the chamber. It's. It's very disturbing when we have so many pieces of information that we can slot together now and say that we are in danger.

And the government often talks about climate change, but somehow it doesn't percolate through. It's this sort of amorphous mass that they talk about, but they don't see how it interacts with everyday events. And luckily, the noble Lord Lord Whitty understands that. And noble Lady, Lady Boycott understands that. But why doesn't the government. I don't understand, and I'll be very happy to meet the noble Lady, the Minister, to to discuss this, because I have been ranting this week and last week about.

Stop nodding on on this particular issue. I can't see why the Labour government is so oblivious to the danger that we're in and how it has to be in everything. It's not enough to say it's part of social benefits, it is not explicit enough. And so I absolutely despair. But I do withdraw my amendments.

17:16

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn. It is by leave withdrawn withdrawn. It is by leave withdrawn in clause six, amendment 15.

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Baroness Twycross my Lords, I will first speak to amendments 15, 22, 29 and 34, tabled in my name. 22, 29 and 34, tabled in my name. These are minor and technical and make clear that, where appropriate, more than one person may be designated in regulations to grant ticketing, advertising, trading and unauthorised association authorisations under the Bill. This would ensure the necessary flexibility to enable, for example, both event owner and Local Organising Committee to grant authorisations if required. Turning to amendments 16, 37 and 38, also tabled in my name, which make clear that the power to create exceptions to the ticket touting offence could apply to activities carried out by charities for charitable purposes.

The amendments also clarify the definition of a charity as applied to Scotland and Northern Ireland, and provide that charitable purposes are defined in accordance with the relevant legislation. We're listening to the concerns raised by your Lordships' House about the potential impact on charities. However, a blanket exception could, in our view, undermine the objectives of the framework or create unintended loopholes. This amendment signals our clear intention to, where appropriate, make exceptions for ticket touting events for charities in regulations. Turning to amendment 32, also in my name, this amendment seeks to address concerns about the impact of the trading offence on those with an existing licence to trade in a restricted zone, noting amendment 31 tabled in this group by the noble Lord Lord Fuller.

My Lords, we agree that the impact on small and medium sized enterprises, particularly street traders holding a licence from the local authority, should be mitigated, while we need to be able to control trading activity in areas of high spectator footfall, it is right that we introduce additional protections for existing traders in those areas. This amendment means a designated authorising person, such as an event organiser or local authority, must take into account whether a person has any existing trading licences when determining whether or not to grant a trading authorisation.

If an existing trader cannot be accommodated in their usual spot, we will work with organisers and local authorities to consider alternative trading arrangements in that limited period. My Lords, we must be able to meet our commitments to prevent owners. That is why it wouldn't be appropriate to introduce a blanket exception for all licensed traders. As the noble Lord, Lord Fuller's amendment seeks to provide, I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by the changes we've made to address the concerns raised.

I beg to move.

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Amendment proposed. Clause six, page four. Line 15. Leave out a

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person and insert one or more persons. Sir, I do have one amendment

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Sir, I do have one amendment which I will take a little time, but only a little time on here. That's amendment 17. And before I do that, let me say many of the government amendments. I say thank you, because clearly the government have listened to a series of

17:19

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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have listened to a series of problems that have been raised over this. So it is. Thank you. And it has been actually a bill which has, generally speaking, been good relationships on amendment 17. However, it's one of these. And we did have a meeting. The Minister did bring officials in, but I think I made it quite clear that we think there should be more done about the ticket touting, ticket touting, basically, let's remember what it's for. It's somebody who gets in between the person who provides an event and the person who buys the ticket.

That's what happens. And they put extra costs in. They take the money away. The person providing the event doesn't get anything out of it, and the person going to it gets extra costs. The amendment here is to say limitations on how much you can take out. Now, it may be a difficult thing, and there may be big players involved here saying, oh, but we're providing a service. Yeah, but you're not. Well, you're not actually just giving the ticket out. And there are cheaper ways of doing it.

I would hope that the Minister would be able to give us something more. Here we have Third Reading, and I would have hoped that we can get a little more out of it, but I think we should get something solid in the bill. It is a major. It is a major opportunity, and unless we start saying we are going to do something about ticket touting, we'll be involved in consultation forever because we have been for a long time. There's been just a bit more consultation.

Oh, and they're providing a service. Is it a real service? I'm not sure it is. I would hope that the Minister will be able have had some damoclean conversion and accept my amendments, or give me something like them. If not, I'm afraid I will have to vote.

17:21

Lord Fuller (Conservative)

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My Lords. number 18 on ticketing before. >> Alighting briefly on 31 trading. Now, previously I have highlighted the iniquity of not being able to trade a ticket with a Facebook trade a ticket with a Facebook friend. If you've been jilted by the person you plan to go with, or in the months between buying the ticket for yourself and grandpa, he's dead. It happens now. Not preventing that sale, but finding someone 50 grand for trying to do so is really two tier justice.

You'd get less for burglary. So if you've bought half a dozen tickets or less for a game, you get to go with your family. But it doesn't make you part of a crime family yet. This is what the government is saying. It purports to support the fam, but it criminalises those whose plans have changed whilst failing to go after the organisers, who could do so much more to sort out ticket abuse. This part of the Bill is stuck in the past, in that it fails to consider the modern ways in which fans can be protected by scammers, with new techniques like proving identity and interoperability, which automatically validates and authenticates tickets, that prevents ghost ticketing and facilitates a regulated exchange between consenting adults.

Now, the organisers of these events just haven't tried hard enough to stop the bots because it suits them to carry on just as they are. They can sell out and bank the cash on day one. Now we all want to ensure that the fans get a fair shot at going to the game. That's common ground, but rather than sorting the problem of the bots that stand in the way of the fans at source and ensure that multiple bunches of tickets can't be hoovered up, this bill gives the organisers a free pass to do what they like.

It's the ultimate unintended consequence. I've previously given the example of the FIFA World Cup ticketing fiasco outrageous prices, empty stadiums, ghost ticketing and the 15% retail fees from monopoly supplier and no regulated secondary market, it encourages fans to hang around the turnstiles, which is a recipe for disaster, and that's not in the best interests of fans. But if this bill is enacted, it would aid and abet these activities and prevent the government from intervening. We would be giving FIFA the legal right to do what they want.

And let's remind ourselves, this is the organisation that rescinded a red card under pressure from President President Trump, who didn't think it was a foul, and he didn't even watch the game. These are the people to whom you're giving carte blanche. It's wrong. Nobody wants the Olympics or the World Cup more than I do. So I ask, why are the peer to peer sites like StubHub or your Facebook friends to be banned instead of encouraged to participate in regulated secondary markets? Why we handing the organisers a monopoly for their favourite chums? Why can't anyone get their story straight on how the mechanics of ticket surrender will work? I asked the Minister, who I know has her lines, to concede that my previous warnings about FIFA and the World Cup ticketing have proved me right.

Life hasn't worked out as she expected because the organisers aren't the good chaps, she thought. They're just in it for themselves. So I invite the Minister to agree and accept my proposal in 18 to focus more on the organisers who sell the tickets, rather than the innocent families who want to go to the game and and buy six tickets or less. Now, moving briefly on to trading in my amendment 31 in this group, the whole purpose of these big events is to transform local economies and the Committee stage.

The noble Lord Lord Mann and myself made the strong case in the public interest for the for the local traders and businesses to have some sort of economic benefit. At that stage. My pleas. Our pleas fed on stony ground. But I'm pleased now that with the government amendment that says that local licensed traders will be given priority and last, the government's agreed with me that fans should be given the choice between eating good local food and beer consumed in local streets, served by local people, rather than being force fed.

Dismal cardboard burgers, gassy lager and overpriced tat in stadium concourses. We agreed we'd got there, and on that basis, I'm happy to withdraw my amendment 31.

17:25

Lord Holmes of Richmond (Conservative)

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My Lords. >> My Lords. >> A pleasure to rise briefly and follow, my noble friend. I think we'd all agree he's brought perhaps we'd all agree he's brought perhaps some of the most colourful illustrations to his amendments. During the passage of this bill. I During the passage of this bill. I perhaps, like myself, all noble Lords are disappointed that the kebab did not make an appearance today, but the cardboard burger did, just in the dying moments there. So that's something to to reflect upon.

My Lords, I'd like to speak to Government Amendment 16 and the related charity amendments that have been brought forward at this Report stage. My Lords, when we began this process, the Bill was deficient when it came to the operations and thus the impact of charities up and down the country. The charitable sector makes such a contribution socially, of course, psychologically, certainly, but economically in so many ways to the general well-being of this nation, the London Olympic Bill of 2006, which became a statute, had charitable provisions on the face of the Bill, as did the Commonwealth Bill of 2019.

We've made some good progress. I'd like to thank the noble Lady, the Minister and indeed all of her officials for their detailed discussions between committee and report, which has resulted in these amendments, which put significant provisions set out on the face of the bill and a real commitment that what could be included in subsequent regulations. It puts charities in a far clearer, far better position, which doesn't just benefit charities and charitable activity up and down the country. It makes sporting events and it makes this bill better.

17:27

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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Lord Bassam like my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond and the noble Lord Lord Addington, I do welcome the movement the government welcome the movement the government have shown on these issues, particularly in tabling amendments particularly in tabling amendments 16, 37 and 38, which respond to amendments that Lord Markham and I tabled in committee attempting to put exemptions for charities from a number of offences on the face of the bill. Well, perhaps I still might have preferred preferred going about it that way.

I do welcome that. The government have specified that charities can be exempted from the ticket touting offence, and my noble friend Lord Holmes is absolutely right about the. The profound. Benefits that charities bring in so many ways. It's also very welcome that the government have tabled amendment. 32 in response to concerns raised by my noble friend Lord Fuller about businesses carrying out trading activities in accordance with existing trading licences, I do think that's an important consideration to ensure that the application of the trading provisions are fair and proportionate.

I wonder if the noble Baroness and her officials in the department have spoken to the Advertising Association, who've been in touch with me since committee about some concerns that advertising firms still have, particularly about the way that the bill and doesn't explain sufficiently to them, at least, how the new framework will work in practice for existing advertisers and media owners. And if the department hasn't been in contact with them, I think it would certainly be a very good idea to do so as the bill heads to another place, because, again, advertisers do such an important job in sustaining the climate for sporting islands.

17:29

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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My Lords, I'll first speak to >> My Lords, I'll first speak to amendments 15, 22, 29 and 34 tabled in my name. These are minor and technical and make clear that, where appropriate, more than one person may be designated in regulations to grant ticketing, advertising, trading in unauthorised association authorisations under the Bill. This would ensure the necessary flexibility to enable, for example, both event owner and Local Organising Committee to grant authorisations if needed. I wanted to add that I'm very grateful to noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes and noble Lord, Lord Addington, among others, for acknowledging the changes we have made to improve the Bill based on discussions directly and also discussions during earlier stages of the bill.

Just to add on that specific question in relation to the Advertising Association raised by Lord Parkinson, officials did speak to them ahead of introduction of the bill, and I will ask them to engage again with the organisation concerned, just to make sure that we're hearing their concerns direct. Turning next to amendments. 163738 also tabled in my name, which make clear the power to create exceptions to the ticket touting offence could apply to activities carried out by charities for charitable purposes.

The amendments also clarify the definition of charities applied to Scotland, Northern Ireland and provide that charitable purposes are defined in accordance with the relevant legislation. We are listening to concerns raised by the House about by your Lordships' House, about the potential impact on charities. However, a blanket exception could undermine the objective of the framework or create unintended loopholes. This amendment signals our clear intention to, where appropriate, make exceptions to the ticket touting offence for charities in regulations. Turning to amendment 32, also in my name, this amendment seeks to address concerns about the impact of the trading offence on those with an existing licence to trade in a restricted zone, noting in particular amendment 31 tabled in this group by the noble Lord Lord Fuller.

My Lords, we agree that the impact on small and medium sized enterprises, particularly street traders holding a licence from the local authority, should be mitigated, while we need to be able to control trading activity in areas of high spectator footfall, it is right that we introduce additional protections for existing traders in those areas. This amendment means that a designated authorising person, such as an event organiser or local authority, must take into account whether a person has any existing trading licences when determining whether or not to grant a trading authorisation.

If an existing trader cannot be accommodated in their usual spot, we will work with organisers and local authorities to consider alternative trading arrangements in that limited period. If I read the wrong bit, no. OK, I'm carrying on my Lords. Sorry, just sort of got. With apologies to your Lordships' House, I just had a moment where I was like, honestly, am I reading the right bit of paper? But I'm pleased to have the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, in the spirit of the debate so far, confirm that it appears that I am not reading the wrong debate.

Speech. Speak, my Lords, we must be able to both read our speeches coherently, but also meet our commitments to event owners. That is why it would not be appropriate, in this government's view, to introduce a blanket exception for all licensed traders. As a noble Lord Lord Fuller amendment seeks to provide. I do hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by the changes we've made to address the concerns raised, and beg to move the amendments in my name, my Lord. Starting First Amendment 17 and 19 in the name of the.

Moving on to the amendment 1719. In the name of the noble Lord Lord Addington. The ticketing offence in this bill ensures tickets can only be publicly sold or resold, with authorisation from an event owner organiser. This meets. Tickets will only be available on official channels. As I noted at Committee stage, we are determined that major sporting events hosted in the UK are inclusive and accessible to the widest possible audience. That includes developing ticketing strategies that puts fans fairness and transparency first. We have worked closely with UEFA to ensure these principles are at the heart of the approach for Euro 2028.

Tickets for the event will go on sale after the after the final tournament draw in December 2027. The noble Lords amendment would require a report on the effectiveness of the provisions before they have been applied to regulations and tickets have gone on sale. We have, however, committed to evaluate the application of this bill's provision within 12 to 18 months of Euro 2028. We've also committed to bring forward a price cap on the resale of tickets for all live events, including on the level of service fee that can be charged and limits on the number of ticket individuals tickets individuals can resell.

Yesterday, it's a noble Lord, Lord Addington noted. I hosted a briefing session to update noble Lords on this work, and I look forward to providing a further update in the autumn. In response to the noble Lord Lord Addington, I would really stress and underline that this government really wants to address the considerable issues in the secondary ticketing market, and I do hope the noble Lords attending this meeting were reassured by the session that the government is committed to ensuring we have strong measures in place at the very earliest opportunity to tackle the secondary ticketing market.

This is a clear manifesto commitment and as set out in The King's Speech, we intend to publish the draft Bill in the second session for in this second session for Pre-legislative scrutiny, work to prepare this legislation is happening now, and I would ask noble Lords to have confidence that we intend publication to be absolutely, as soon as possible within what remains of this session. So, for example, had the noble Lord asked me whether I were to anticipate this is early in the New Year, I would say I cannot commit to this, but I hope that this will be the case.

Lastly, turning to

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amendment 18 in the name of noble Lord Lord Fuller. My Lords, This amendment unfortunately defeats the aim to prevent unauthorised resale and profiteering. It would create a significant gap in protections and leave us unable to meet commitments leave us unable to meet commitments to major sporting event owners. The noble Lord Lord Fuller suggested noble Lord Lord Fuller suggested that this was that the bill was criminalising people who wanted to give away or sell at face value give away or sell at face value tickets to friends and family.

It is not the intention and it is not the intention within this bill to criminalise the private transfer of tickets at face value between friends, family and associates. That is why the offence only applies to activity that is carried out in a public place, in the course of business, or with a view to making a profit. Turning next to amendment 31, tabled by the noble Lord Lord Fuller. My Lords, I previously outlined, we are committed to mitigating on SMEs, but are clear that we must be able to meet our commitments to events.

That is why it would not be appropriate to introduce a blanket exception for all licensed traders. As a noble Lords amendment seeks to do. We believe amendment 32 in my name strikes the appropriate balance. I hope I have provided the necessary assurances to noble Lords and that noble Lord will withdraw his amendment, and I beg to on.

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That amendment 15 be agreed to as assay content. Of the contrary, not content. The contents have it. not content. The contents have it. Amendment 16 moved formally. The question is that this amendment be question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many as of that opinion will say content. The contrary not content. The contents

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have it. Amendment 17 Lord Addington. I appreciate that the government are think they're doing something, are think they're doing something, but we've been waiting too long. I think we need something on the face of the bill to encourage this. I beg to move.

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The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. As many as of that

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opinion will say content. The contrary, not content. Content. The question will be decided by Division. I will advise the House Division. I will advise the House Division. I will advise the House when voting is open. Voting is open.

17:37

17:40

Sporting Events Bill - Report Stage: Division: Amendment:17

My My Lords. My Lords. The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. As many as of that opinion will say content. To the contrary, not content.

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Not content. The contents will go to the right by the throne, not contents right by the throne, not contents

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To.

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My My right.

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And And 17. And 17. We And 17. We agreed And 17. We agreed to.

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I I think Lord Lord Swire Lord Swire 29 Lord Swire 29 and this is what it looks like. It this is what it looks like. It needs to be. Fixed and make sure that.

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My Lords, they have voted. Contents 57 not contents. 154 so Contents 57 not contents. 154 so My My Lords, amendment 18 in schedule one. Lord Fuller not moved. Amendment 19 Lord Addington not moved. Amendment 19 not moved. OK, I just want to be absolutely sure that I've heard the noble Lord. Amendment 19 not moved. Amendment 20. Lord Foster not moved. Amendment 21 Lord, Lady Jones has not moved.

Amendment 22 Baroness Twycross moved formally. Question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say content to the contrary, not content. The contents have it in schedule two. Amendments 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 28. Lord Foster of Bath not moved. In clause 12, amendment 29, Baroness Twycross moved formally. Question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say, content contrary. Not content. The contents have it.

amendment 30. Lord Parkinson not moved. Amendment 31. Lord Fuller not moved. Amendment 32. Baroness Twycross moved formally. Question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many as that opinion will say content to the contrary, not content. The contents have it. Amendment. 33 Lord Parkinson not moved many pages to turn over, my Lords. Amendment 34 Baroness Twycross moved formally. Question is that this amendment be agreed to.

17:49

Deputy Lord Speaker. Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)

As many as that opinion will say content not content. The contents have it. Amendment 35 Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb not moved. Amendment 36. Lord Foster not moved. Amendments 37 and 38. Baroness Twycross moved formally. The question is that these amendments be agreed to En bloc. As many as are of that opinion will say content of the contrary, not content. the contents of it. Amendments 39 and 40. Lord Foster not moved. And in clause 25, amendment 41, Lord Parkinson not moved and 42 Lord Parkinson not moved after clause 25.

Amendment 43.

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Lord Addington we come to a little triumvirate of amendments

17:50

Amendment:43 Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

little triumvirate of amendments standing in my name. We deal with in order. As we go through them. We go through the infrastructure requirements of throwing any games, requirements of throwing any games, providing a games or a championship. I was just here just to not to go I was just here just to not to go over old ground. I would like to get some assurance from the Minister about what process they expect to follow to make sure you get the infrastructure right.

We had there are certain models where, for instance, the London Games, where a great deal of infrastructure was put in. You know, London Olympics, and then we've got things like the Birmingham Commonwealth Games and indeed the Glasgow Games, where you haven't had to do much. But if you have had to do building, what is the process by which you're going to get back and get assurances on it? Then we come to the one which I think is my favourite of the three. That's getting something down.

Grassroots sports now, making sure some benefit goes to the grassroots themselves. This is inspired by our experience during the London Olympics, because the one thing we didn't do was encourage people to play sport. We learnt how to build lovely things. We learnt how to watch it. We didn't get people to play it and this was just we thought just watching and having a good example would be enough. It isn't. There are other examples where we've been more successful in championships, and there is a great deal of competition between whether it is netball or rugby union had the most successful way of encouraging people back in who had some training but had fallen out of the sport.

Basically, it's a targeted approach. What are we doing to make sure those grassroots sports benefit directly from this activity? That is the question we're raising here. Now then, we come to the thorny question of broadcasting. My Lords, what are we doing to make sure people can actually see an event, particularly if it's one of ours, and particularly if the government have put resources in in terms of money, time, energy, what are we doing to make sure people can actually see this, who cannot get tickets? It's free to wear.

I might have used, but I was pulled up and said, but you have to have a licence fee to get it on the BBC. OK. Something that isn't hiding behind a paywall. Are we making sure that people notice these events? They feel they are included if they aren't actually there, they obtain some benefit from it. I would hope the Minister will have a series of positive answers on these and reassuring answers on these, because we can take this forward for further events.

I have, I doubt very much whether she would inspire me to vote again, but I would. But I would hope that we could actually. I would get a positive answers on these, and I look forward to what the Minister says and reply.

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When we proposed after clause 25, insert the new clause printed on

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the Marshalled List. My Lords, I do congratulate the noble Lord Addington on this trio of amendments which reflect the of amendments which reflect the important discussions we had in Committee on Sporting Legacy, in Committee on Sporting Legacy, in debates that were enriched by the considerable number of Olympian and Paralympian members of your Paralympian members of your Lordships House and supporting grassroots sport and sporting legacy is is a is one of the most important lessons from the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games.

My amendments in this group at 49 and the consequential amendments 52 and 53, attempt to press the government on when they will publish their major events strategy. It. The amendment, because of the purposes of this bill, reflects sporting events. But this is something that is eagerly awaited by a number of sectors across sports, culture, arts and many more who host or seek to host major events. The government have said that they will publish the strategy, but haven't given clear indication as to when, which has slightly affected some of the debates we've had.

I don't know if the noble Lady is able to say

17:54

any more on this, and I do particularly agree with what the noble Lord Lord Addington says in amendment 45. It is a particular shame that the Commonwealth Games, to be held soon, will not be broadcast readily available for people on the BBC. The first time people on the BBC. The first time since 1954. I hope the government will consider how the impact of will consider how the impact of this can be avoided in future sporting events.

17:55

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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My Lords, turning First Amendment 43, tabled by the noble Lord Lord Addington concerning the infrastructure for major sporting

17:55

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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events. As I set out at Committee stage in more detail, I'd like to reassure your Lordships' House is exactly the type of technical requirement already set out in contractor hosting agreements, as specified by event owners. As part specified by event owners. As part of the bidding process, prospective hosts will have to provide the necessary assurances to event necessary assurances to event owners that there will be sufficient capacity and infrastructure in place. The noble Lord Lord Addington asked around whether there's sufficient powers if further infrastructure is required to host an event.

My Lords, in the case of London 2012, a delivery authority was established with significant powers as a result of a very specific set of requirements, including significant investment in construction of infrastructure such as new venues. In the government's view, this is not going to be required for every major sporting event. We therefore don't believe it is necessary or proportionate to include prescriptive in relation to infrastructure and accommodation in the Bill. I'd like to assure the noble Lord that we will consider event requirements on a case by case basis.

We recognise that where government is required to make commitments which go beyond the common requirements set out in the Bill, or in circumstances such as the establishment of a delivery authority, this may require further primary legislation to support event delivery. Turning to amendment 44, also tabled by the noble Lord Lord Addington, this bill explicitly provides for the framework to be applied. A sporting event must be likely to bring social economic benefits to the United Kingdom or part of it. This would encompass supporting community participation in the and the growth of grassroots sport.

I am pleased to be able to confirm that the first event. This bill will support UEFA Euro 2028 will prioritise grassroots participation as part of the government backed community programme, catalysing the growth of a more inclusive game, boosting pride and fostering togetherness across the country. In any case, the Bill already allows us to set funding conditions which could of course support grassroots investment where warranted. Turning to amendment 45, also tabled by the noble Lord Lord Addington, accessibility and inclusion already underpin major sporting events.

Funding is a core objective of the gold framework and a non-negotiable criteria within our public funding processes. My Lords, while we are committed to doing more to improve accessibility, we also need to strike a balance with protecting the independence of our media and ensuring broadcasting revenue can be invested back into the growth of our sport. There is a matter of practicality as well. Event planning and broadcasting rights negotiations do not always proceed on the same timetable. Finally, on amendments 49, 52 and 53 tabled by the noble Lord Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay.

As I set out earlier, we're committed to publishing a major event strategy that spans events in all sectors, not just sport, and I'm pleased to confirm that this will be published by spring next year. It is right that we commit time to fully work this through, in collaboration with industry, to ensure it accurately reflects the opportunities and challenges they face. And of course, it's also right that there continue to be specific strategies for particular issues, such as the gold framework, which underpin our strategy for major sporting events.

For the reasons I've set out, I ask that the noble Lord Lord Addington withdraw his amendment.

17:58

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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I thank the noble Baroness for >> I thank the noble Baroness for those replies, and I also thank the noble Lord Parkinson. Amendment which I should have commented on, which I should have commented on, because it is a sensible suggestion. My Lords, we are part of starting here, I hope, which is a positive dialogue about building around here. And, as I said, we actually think that government had a good idea, which it should have been, should have been bolder with. These are all things which I think would have strengthened the bill if on the face of it, but probably aren't absolutely essential to it.

But having heard what the noble Baroness says and actually liking the thinking, if not all the words, I have no hesitation in withdrawing my amendments.

17:59

Lord Fuller (Conservative)

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18:04

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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operate disproportionately in favour of employers, leaving workers with greater uncertainty workers with greater uncertainty over their working patterns and income. Any exclusions or exemptions introduced at this stage exemptions introduced at this stage risk pre-empting the outcome of the government's ongoing consultation on reforms, zero hours and similar contracts. Through this consultation, the government is seeking evidence and views from stakeholders and reforms to zero stakeholders and reforms to zero hours and similar contracts, including whether any exclusions or exemptions may be appropriate. It is important that the views of all stakeholders are fully considered before any decisions are taken on potential exclusion or exemptions.

The government's objective is to ensure that all jobs provide a baseline level of security and predictability, enabling workers to better plan their lives and finances. We encourage stakeholders from the sporting events sector to engage with the consultation and help inform the development of the policy. I would like also to note, in response to the noble Lady Baroness Morris point, that nobody would have believed that she would have encouraged noble Lord Fuller to speak longer than necessary, given the circumstances.

And with that, my Lords, I will blow the final whistle on my remarks, but look forward to continued commentary and debate, both on the Bill and tonight's match. I know all noble Lords wish the England team the best of luck and hope, indeed that football is coming home. On the basis of the points I've made, I hope the noble Lord Lord Fuller will withdraw his amendment.

18:05

Lord Fuller (Conservative)

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Oh well, my Lords, I regret to say that the VAR review has said we say that the VAR review has said we may need to go into extra time on this. Look, it's a serious matter and it gets to the heart of how serious we are about hosting these events. We need to encourage participation by individuals and everybody else to give opportunity to millions. I'm really sorry, but I'm not satisfied with the answers that have have been given. I do intend to divide the House and then we can all go and watch the game.

Come on England.

18:06

Division

This debate has concluded

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