Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Thursday 4th December 2025

(began 1 hour, 11 minutes ago)

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11:06

Oral questions: Age verification: access harmful material online Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)

Lord's Lord's first Lord's first oral Lord's first oral question.

11:06

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Baroness Benjamin was I beg leave to ask the question, standing in my name on the Order Paper. >> The Online Safety Act requires services to use highly effective age assurance to prevent children in the UK from encountering harmful content. Ofcom's guidance makes clear that age assurance must be robust. To prevent circumvention. Services must also take steps to mitigate against circumvention methods that are easily accessible to children. Providers that do not comply with their child safety duties by deliberately promoting the use of VPNs could face enforcement action under the act.

11:07

Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)

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The noble Lady for that answer, but my Lords, Childnet has discovered an increase in the use of VPNs by children in the last three months. While younger children are deterred by age verification checks, teenagers actively seek out and share methods to circumvent them. Many minors are downloading free VPNs, applications which often monetise user data and expose devices to viruses. Also, by relocating to countries with little or no internet safety laws, children can be exposed to more extreme, illegal or unmoderated content.

Perhaps children under 16 should be banned from social media altogether. So what action will the government take to avoid the increased number of children using VPNs? And will they instruct Ofcom to follow the lead of the Australian Esafety Commissioner and require that digital services check VPN traffic for technical and behavioural red flags that a user may be a child in the UK. Let's act sooner rather than later. sooner rather than later.

11:08

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Well, we we recognise the international efforts to better protect children online, including in Australia, and we are working with the Australian government to understand the impact of their policies, including that one. There is currently limited evidence on how many children use VPNs, and the government is addressing this evidence gap, and we welcome any further evidence such as that you quoted in this area to complement our understanding. And as you've seen in other areas, the government will ensure that we will act where we need to and that future interventions are proportionate and evidence based.

11:08

Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Conservative)

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This is a complex and difficult area, and I often praise the work of Ofcom in implementing the Online Safety Act, and everyone thinks I'm applying to be the chair of Ofcom. I'm not. But I do think that Baroness Benjamin suggestion is a very interesting one. A lot of research needs to be done. It would be interesting to see the VPN research. I think there's another huge gap in researching the technology that is used in our schools by edtech providers, and providing some kind of quality framework to ensure that this technology, how it collects data and so on of our children is at least transparent and known about, so that requisite action could be taken in the future.

11:09

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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The Noble Law makes a very good point about the need for accurate research and evidence based, which allows us to take the right action. And as noble Lords may have seen, Ofcom published a report this morning setting out a number of areas that it is looking at in terms of researching, for example, the use of VPNs, the use of VPNs by children, using all sorts of methods to look at that. And we should also look at both sort of technological solutions as well as sort of advice and guidance, and the role of Ofcom in enforcing against the Online Safety Act requirements.

11:10

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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My Lords, my Lords, my Lords, whilst it's important, my Lords, whilst it is important, whilst it is important, of course, that the platforms maintain the standards that Ofcom have set for them, does my noble friend, the Minister also agree that the parents have an important role to play in all of this? To make sure that the parental controls that are on most devices now are implemented in full. And isn't there more of a role for digital literacy for adults to make sure that they are keeping a proper eye on what their children are doing, to make sure that they comply with the regulations?

11:10

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Yes. important point about the role of all of us in terms of using the technology that's available to protect ourselves and to equip ourselves to be safe online, and for parents to do that in respect of their children. I think it's also very important that we support as government the the literacy campaigns, both in terms of sort of digital skills, but also online safety and government will play its part in supporting parents in that, in that domain.

11:11

Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)

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On the radio four today programme this morning, the Ofcom admitted that none of the three fines which have been levied so far has been paid. Is it not right that Ofcom should be encouraged to take much stronger enforcement action against those who do not pay, by making it clear that within a very short time, they will lose their right to appear on any screen in the United Kingdom, unless their enforcement is fit for purpose. enforcement is fit for purpose.

11:11

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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I think we we all agree that enforcement is incredibly important part of the Online Safety Act and the Ofcom's enforcement powers include fines of up to £18 million, or 10% of qualifying worldwide revenue. We have been very clear as government to Ofcom that they have the government's full backing to take enforcement action, and so we are standing right behind them to do that as effectively as possible.

11:12

Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, the Minister says that the government is standing right behind Ofcom and many of us very strongly support Ofcom's actions in fining people like the Avs Group for not observing proper age checks on their sites. But, my Lords, these fines are, as noble Lord Carlile indicates, there's no point in having the files unless we have proper enforcement. What resource is the government satisfied that Ofcom has in order to pursue enforcement?

11:12

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Well, we have ensured that Ofcom is, is is resourced in order to implement its online safety duties and have increased the amount available to them year on year so that now they have 92. I think the I think the budget is £92 million to support their entire sort of online support their entire sort of online safety Act responsibilities. So we believe that they have the resources they need to effectively implement and supervise the Online Safety Act.

11:13

Lord Markham (Conservative)

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Really following following on from the comments and noble Lords, I think to me it's quite clear that Ofcom do have a lot of the powers necessary to restrict underage usage, but seem to lack the will. That was abundantly clear, I felt, from the radio four interview this morning, and I must admit, my experience in such matters is that the Ofcom leadership need to really understand the strength of feeling in Parliament, in this House, that they need to be more robust in enforcement.

So will the noble Lady the Minister agree to arrange a meeting with with Ofcom CEO and the key Lords here today so that we can fully hold Ofcom to account on this?

11:14

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Yes. good question about, or makes an important point about the strength of feeling here, and I think that is replicated here and in the discussions yesterday in the other House or the the Select Committee. I'm very happy to take forward his Ofcom.

11:14

The Lord Bishop of Norwich (Bishops)

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My Lord, my Lords, I think it's a bit.

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My Lords, given the Church of England's role in education, I England's role in education, I welcome the age limits introduced for harmful material sites. However, it's very hard to police the use of VPNs and thus education is likely to be needed in a great deal of of of cases as well as enforcement. What role will Ofsted's new framework play in ensuring that statutory relationships, sex and health education is delivered matter?

11:15

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Mr. chairman.

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Thank you very much for that question. I mean, the I do know that in respect of the curriculum that in respect of the curriculum and assessment review, the importance of digital skills and media literacy was highlighted as media literacy was highlighted as an area which they recommended and which we will be responding to in which we will be responding to in respect of the specific relationship education that he

11:15

Baroness Thornton (Labour)

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asked about. I will have to come back to him on that point. >> My Lords, I think it's a I commend my government for the action they're taking on the Online Safety Act. It's a bit rich for the party opposite, who dragged their heels for several years about the implementation of this. My Lords. I don't know how many noble Lords here would know how to download VPN and then choose a country around which they can get, which does have no age verification rules.

And I am quite clear that there will be teenagers who can do this. So the question is, is Ofcom researching this? Are they assessing these risks and will they will they be bringing forward solutions to it?

11:16

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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My noble friend highlights the complexity of some of these areas and the importance of understanding exactly what's going on in terms of DCMS, VPN use by adults, by children, and whether it is indeed used to circumvent the age assurance aspects of the Online Safety Act and Ofcom, as it set out this morning, has many areas where it is researching the use of VPNs, and particularly the use of VPNs by children of all ages, older, older children as well as younger children.

children.

11:17

Oral questions: Use of electronic shock collars on domestic animals Lord Black of Brentwood (Conservative)

Second oral question. my name on the Order Paper.

11:17

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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My Lords, the government remains committed to improving the welfare of domestic animals. We are considering the available evidence around hand controlled electronic collars and their effects on animal welfare, and we will outline our next steps in due course. But more broadly, we are developing an overarching approach to animal welfare and have been engaging with key welfare organisations as part of this work. The Prime Minister committed to publishing animal welfare strategy by the end of this year.

11:17

Lord Black of Brentwood (Conservative)

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I know the noble Lady will agree that the use of electronic shock collars on cats and dogs is cruel and unnecessary, causing pain, fear and stress in animals we should be caring for. But could she therefore explain why they have not yet been banned? A full seven years after a consultation on their use in 2018 showed strong support in favour of a ban from those with animal welfare expertise. The then government, with strong backing from the noble Lady, were fully supportive.

But draft regulations brought to this House in 2023 moved with glacial speed and timed out before the election. Since then, nothing has happened and animals are still being caused pain and suffering. I know Whitehall can move with great. Speed when it wants to, but isn't seven years unacceptable? Can the noble Lady, who I know is a great supporter of animal welfare and a proud cat owner, tell us when these regulations will reappear? Well, said. said.

11:18

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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The noble Lord is absolutely right that I have been supporting this for some time, and also that seven years is an awfully long time. And that's why when I came into my position as animal Welfare Minister, I wanted to properly review all the animal welfare legislation that had been sitting, sitting there, left over from the previous government, which is why we've been pulling together this overarching animal welfare strategy. We are looking at the available evidence on electronic shock collars.

We are looking at the potential impacts on animal welfare, on livestock management, on dog training, owner responsibility and important part of it. And as I say, keep a watching eye out for the animal welfare strategy.

11:19

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lord.

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Trick shock collars has been written, scrutinised and approved by this House in June 23rd. It lapsed on a technicality, not due to any flaw. DEFRA own research to any flaw. DEFRA own research concluded these devices cause fear and harm, offering no welfare and harm, offering no welfare compatible training benefit. The government can deliver a swift animal welfare win by immediately relaying this instrument. Will the Minister undertake to do this instead of waiting?

11:19

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Yeah. welfare Minister, I asked for a list of animal welfare legislation, consultations, all sorts of things that have been undertaken by the previous governments. That and the list was huge. So my job was to look at where I felt we could make the best improvements for animal welfare in this country, which is why I commissioned an animal welfare strategy that looks at what makes the biggest difference to animal welfare. And if the noble Lady looks out for that strategy, it will be published very, very soon.

She may find many things that she will be wanting to support. she will be wanting to support.

11:20

Lord Trees (Crossbench)

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My Lords, my Lords, the breeding of dogs with extreme confirmations for purely fashionable reasons, causes significant and potentially lifelong ill health. It is illegal under the Licensing of Activities Involving Animals regulations and a new initiative, the Innate Health Assessment Tool has been launched to help owners and breeders, trading standards officers, vets and others to avoid this practice in dogs. But my Lords, we are now increasingly seeing cats bred with confirmations which are seriously deleterious to their health and that of their offspring.

Could I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, will His Majesty's Government amend current regulations to include cats and to encourage the development of innate health assessment tools or similar tools to help reduce and avoid these abhorrent breeding practices in cats? in cats?

11:21

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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The noble Lord is absolutely right to raise this issue and as he said, there's been quite a lot of interest and work done on dogs in this area. And as a result of the concerns that have been continually raised and increasingly raised around the health and confirmation of cats bred for sale as pets, the government commissioned the Animal Welfare Committee to produce a report looking at the welfare implications, exactly as the noble Lord has talked about. Those recommendations are now with the government, and we're carefully looking at them.

11:22

Lord Spellar (Labour)

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Could I suggest the noble friend, the Minister, in the same way I did to her conservative predecessors when I was trying to introduce legislation to ban the import of hunting trophies, that there is nothing I'm aware of in the representation of the People Act that prevents governments from undertaking popular policies. So could she could she overcome the institutional lethargy of Whitehall in this and other animal welfare issues, and just get on with it? Yes. Yes.

11:22

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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I think the noble Lord is probably aware there's an awful lot of popular policies that everybody would like to be seen put forward immediately, which is why I wanted to spend time on getting an animal welfare strategy that actually looked right across the board as to what was going to make the biggest difference for animal welfare and and different bits of legislation that were much more achievable. So again, I say to the noble Lord, as I've said to others, keep a watchful eye out for the animal welfare strategy.

11:23

Lord Blencathra (Conservative)

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My Lords, I'm grateful to my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood for raising this question. The House did as he said, pass the last government's banning regulations in 2023, but they did not go through the Commons. I welcome the fact that the government is considering all the evidence on this. As she knows, the British Veterinary Association and many dog trainers say that positive incentives are far better than shock treatment. However, many farmers say it's essential for sheepdog training, although that great sheepdog country Wales has bandits since 2010 without any difficulties.

I suspect I'm in the same boat as the noble Lady, as someone tried to put an electric shock collar on my cat, they themselves would get an awful shock. But can the noble Lady, the Minister, give any indication of where a conclusion may be reached in this evidence gathering exercise? And if Defra does decide to proceed, proceed with a ban. Could we expect a regulation similar to the one we did in 2023?

11:23

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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As I've mentioned earlier, we are considering all the evidence around this. It is something that we we want to look at how we can bring forward. We as the noble Lord and others have said, we supported the previous work that the previous government did on this and I cannot give a date, but we are looking at the evidence now and obviously we want to move forward.

11:24

Lord de Clifford (Crossbench)

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When the Minister please.

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My Lords, can I thank the noble Baroness, the Minister, for her continued support on animal welfare continued support on animal welfare in the UK? And please can the House note my interest that I work in the veterinary industry? I hope the veterinary industry? I hope the Minister has seen the the recent report from the Appg on Animal Welfare regarding animal welfare enforcement. Can I ask, what is the government doing to improve enforcement on animal welfare laws and support local authorities and charities? Protect domestic pets from cruelty especially.

Could we look into reducing the time local authorities have to hold and hold seized pets?

11:25

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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I mean, the noble Lord really important question actually around enforcement because, as I've said more than once in this House, what is the point of having laws if they're if they're not enforced? Local authorities, the animal plant and health agency and the police do have powers to investigate allegations of animal cruelty, including breaches of any disqualification orders. And the Animal Welfare Act of 2006 also enables the courts to ban offenders from owning or keeping animals following a conviction, and if anyone has any concerns, they should of course report it to to the police.

I mean, clearly we any, any legislation where the enforcement isn't working needs to be looked at, and I'm more than happy to do so.

11:25

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Labour)

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Lord Dear is the noble Lady, the Minister aware that some of us were in Downing Street yesterday and there was a cat wandering around in Downing Street. Can she make sure that the owners are acting responsibly? responsibly?

11:26

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Well, interesting. Interestingly enough, I was in Downing Street yesterday as well, and I and I saw said Cat and I foolishly attempted to take a photograph of it and was told that was not acceptable and would not help the animal's welfare. So. So.

11:26

Baroness Fookes (Conservative)

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My Lords, I'm much concerned by a piece of legislation passed by this government, and that is the one which will ban the introduction of animals with mutilations, which would be illegal if carried out in this country. We have the act, but it depends on regulations. When may we see those regulations? In seven years time.

11:26

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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I mean, the noble Lady raises an important point. This is around ear cropping, for example, and so on and so forth, which was in the bill that went it got Royal Assent earlier this week. I don't I cannot give the noble Lady a date, but what I can say to her is we are very keen to move as quickly as possible as we can on this, to bring in Statutory Instrument in order to allow this to actually happen, as she says. happen, as she says.

11:27

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Lord Hall question Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate.

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question in my name on today's Order Paper. My Lords, the government

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My Lords, the government welcomed the publication of the European Commission's draft adequacy decisions in July, which adequacy decisions in July, which concluded that the UK continues to provide an essentially equivalent level of data protection. The EU's six month extension allowed the Commission to consider the reforms made by the Data Use and Access Act. I look forward to the successful completion of the adoption process ahead of the 27th of December deadline this year.

11:27

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Conservative)

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My Lords, I am very pleased with >> My Lords, I am very pleased with that reply from the Minister. But what I think I am concerned about what I think I am concerned about mostly is the loss of the provisions relating to law enforcement, and particularly the real time exchange of information which our intelligence authorities and police authorities have relied on historically. That is no longer available to us. And in what is undoubtedly a very dangerous world. Surely that is a priority for the discussions that take place now and in the future.

On the whole question of data adequacy with our European neighbours. Thank you.

11:28

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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I thank the noble Lord and he brings a great deal of experience brings a great deal of experience over the years in many areas of data, data protection, legislation, anti-money laundering and on the security side. And since the UK and EU leaders summit on the 19th of May, we have been working with the EU to increase the safety and security of UK and EU citizens, responding to shared threats and to support police investigations, including through exchange enhanced data exchange.

And we continue to work and meet closely with the EU on these matters.

11:29

Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)

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The government is trying to hit >> The government is trying to hit a moving target. As far as I can see, the EU is now adopting a new see, the EU is now adopting a new digital omnibus which will change EU GDPR. How confident is the government of being able to get a decision from the EU in time? My Lords.

11:29

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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So just to take that in two parts in terms of their scrutiny of our legislation, we are confident the Commission started its review. It's published the report that I mentioned in July, and the European Data Protection Board published a non-legally binding opinion on its draft decision on the 20th of October. And so we are confident that a member state vote will take place ahead of the 27th of December deadline. In respect of the EU's own proposals to to change its data protection framework.

Those proposals have only recently been published, and we will have a look at the details of those changes as and when they become clear and are confirmed.

11:30

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)

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11:30

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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We continue to look at all >> We continue to look at all potential AI threats, and our are immensely assisted in this by the immensely assisted in this by the work of the AI Security Institute, AC, which has deepened our understanding of critical security threats posed by all sorts of AI, frontier AI, and the type you mentioned, and continue to talk to international partners about this. Lord Sewell it isn't just legal frameworks.

11:30

Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Crossbench)

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What is. of the data structures. And are we in discussions with other European partners and in particular with Ireland, that they're ensuring that their undersea cables are secure, not just undersea, but also where they enter the mainland?

11:31

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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The noble Lady is is right that there are risks to undersea cables. I am not I will have to come back to the precise discussions that we've had with Ireland, as I'm not completely up to speed with those, but in general, that is indeed something that we are very well aware of, and we have taken forward a lot of discussions with industry and with others about.

11:31

Lord Howell of Guildford (Conservative)

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That. >> Report from. The UK Statistics Authority last July that and I quote, the quality problems have manifested into published errors, delays and d accreditation of official statistics. That's pretty damning stuff. Can the the Minister tell us what the what's going to be done now to improve the situation. For surely flying blind is really rather dangerous. Now in the present world circumstances and particularly for this government. Yeah.

11:32

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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I thank the noble Lord for his >> I thank the noble Lord for his question. I think about the, the the adequacy of the national, national official Office of national official Office of National Statistics and some of the information that they provide and that we indeed all do rely on in terms of the particular program of enhancement. I will need to come back to him on that point to, to to set out exactly what is being done in that area.

11:32

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Conservative)

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If the Minister says this is such an important issue and such an important matter, why did it not merit a single mention in the Chancellor speech in the budget?

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The issue of data adequacy agreements with the EU? I think agreements with the EU? I think that we are proceeding quite adequately in terms of. You know, adequately in terms of. You know, the process of them scrutinising our, our, our, our, our, our data protection regulations. And we're confident that the 27th of December

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confident that the 27th of December deadline will be met. Can I ask whether there's a relationship here with concerns over IP and copyright? Because our rules for data data reuse are rules for data data reuse are relevant to alignment with the EU. relevant to alignment with the EU.

11:33

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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The noble Lords asked a very interesting question, but one I'm afraid again, I I'm unable to give him any sort of deep answer on so I particular.

11:33

Lord Markham (Conservative)

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My Lords, in view of the high >> My Lords, in view of the high stakes of the UK services and digital trade, with the 27th of December deadline fast approaching, December deadline fast approaching, will the government publish the adequacy, risk assessment and correspondence they have shared with the Commission, redacted where necessary, so that Parliament and stakeholders can see how they have satisfied themselves that the Data Use and Adequacy Act is not put at risk.

11:34

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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My understanding is there's a lot of to and fro and a lot of many requests between the EU and the UK for very technical nature to allow the European Commission to make their their judgement. I think quite a lot of those have been published already and in fact in the European Commission report and in the European Data Protection Board's opinion. So I think that the process by which this is set out is already quite transparent and clear.

11:34

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Labour)

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Jones. >> Jones. >> My Lords, on the assumption that we do get approval on the 27th of we do get approval on the 27th of December, will my noble friend the Minister move quickly to make sure that we reduce trade barriers and boost economic growth as per the economic reset that we're setting with the EU, which has been held back by Brexit for far too long in this country.

11:35

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My noble friend is right that both the data, the importance of both the data, the importance of data digital trade to the UK is and and its exposure to the EU is a very significant part of our, our, our, our digital trade agreement, as are the relationships which underpin this. And, you know, just as testament to the way in which the reset is happening, we do welcome the the the visit of the German president here today on his state visit.

11:35

Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Conservative)

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May I follow. >> May I follow. >> Up on what the noble Baroness said to the Minister? Digital trade is so important, and the last is so important, and the last government led the way with digital trade agreements, particularly with countries such as Singapore and as chair of the UK Asean Business Council, I see how important these digital trade agreements are and how the UK leads the way as a member of the. And an observer at Asean.

So could I just reinforce, I hope the noble Minister will keep her nerve, will keep her nerve as we start to reset our relationships with our largest trading partner just 20 miles across the channel, the EU.

11:36

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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So that is a very good point. And I was able to discuss with my Malaysian counterpart the potential for a digital trade agreement when I was in Kuala Lumpur earlier this year, and that does indeed provide, I very much hope that we can progress that in order to promote digital trade and likewise with the EU. And I can assure you that the government is working extremely actively to cement or to progress the EU reset.

11:37

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Isn't this yet another. >> Disaster of Brexit that was spelt out in all places in the Telegraph a couple of weeks ago, that demonstrated the damage that's been done to the country. Don't we need to speed our relationship and our discussions up to get back to some sensible agreement with our main trading partner in Europe?

11:37

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

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Yes. >> Yes. >> My noble friend is is right about the importance of making swift progress to reset the relationship to to promote trade, to get all the agreements in place under the EU reset, which go from everything from energy to defence and security, all sorts of areas where we can make real progress to the support of the UK economy.

11:38

Oral questions: The safety of UK citizens currently in Venezuela Baroness Hooper (Conservative)

Oral question Baroness Hooper. >> On behalf. >> Of Baroness Rawlings. On behalf of my noble friend Baroness Rawlings, and at her request, I beg Rawlings, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in her name on the Order Paper.

11:38

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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My Lords, the FCDO continues to advise against all but essential travel to Venezuela. The safety of British nationals abroad is the FCDO's overriding concern when determining travel advice, which remains under regular review to ensure it reflects our latest assessment of risks to British nationals. FCDO has been clear that consular support available to British nationals in Venezuela is limited, but we continue to support a peaceful, negotiated transition in Venezuela.

11:38

Baroness Hooper (Conservative)

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In thanking the noble Baroness, the Minister, for her reply, may I press a little on the wider region and ask if this advice and possible support be given to British nationals in the overseas territories, in the Caribbean, for example? And further, does the FCDO have any plans to close our embassy in Venezuela as indeed, I understand other European countries have already done so.

11:39

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Our obligations to those in overseas territories are very overseas territories are very different and they are clearly prioritised when disasters hit and and other such circumstances, we have very limited diplomatic relations with Venezuela and we have a Shah in Caracas at the moment. We don't plan at this stage today to withdraw that. But clearly we do keep a very close eye. And I've spoken to the team there on many occasions. What they're doing there is still of value and as long as and their safety is assured, as long as that's the case, I don't see us withdrawing it immediately.

But clearly, given the changing review.

11:40

Lord Woodley (Labour)

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My Lord. >> It's very clear, my Lord. >> Thank you, my Lord. It's very clear that our government is a nervous about criticising Trump nervous about criticising Trump directly, but it's undeniable. The extrajudicial killings he's ordered blowing up small boats off the coast of Venezuela are a grave violation of international law. Therefore, does the noble Lords Minister agree that notorious double strike that we hear so much about in September, which saw two people murdered while clinging to a boat, should be and must be thoroughly, thoroughly condemned?

11:40

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, look, I'm not here to second guess legal advice or what the situation is in regards to any specific incident in the Caribbean. What the US does in regard to Venezuela and its position regarding its activities in the Caribbean are clearly a matter for the US.

11:41

Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)

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To confirm. >> To confirm. >> That the. >> 51 Venezuelans. >> Who are on. >> Our sanctions. >> List for their. >> Role in undermining democracy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Role in undermining democracy and human rights remain sanctioned, and will she say, whether we are and will she say, whether we are considering imposing sanctions on those who have been involved in the cartels, in the illegal smuggling of drugs, many of them lethal, not just into the United States, but into Europe and this country to.

11:41

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, he knows that I'm not going to talk about sanctions. We're about to lift them or impose We're about to lift them or impose them. But it's absolutely true that one of the biggest markets for narcotics coming out of Latin America and Central America specifically is Europe. And we are causing through the demand for narcotics in this country, misery, despair, death of children, among others in that part of the world.

11:41

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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I'm also. The. >> I'm also. The. >> Evil. >> Authoritarian, corrupt. But the extrajudicial killings are not extrajudicial killings are not justified. Are we confident that British intelligence has not been used to facilitate those? And how is military action against Venezuela consistent with forcing a peace settlement in Ukraine? And if there is military action, what steps can be taken to to protect all civilians, including the 7000

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