Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 2 stand part.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Vickers.

I thank the many hon. Members who spoke on Second Reading. It is clear that in this place, as in the other place, the Bill will proceed in a collaborative and constructive spirit, with the single motivation of getting the reforms right. On Second Reading, we heard numerous powerful accounts from hon. Members arising from their personal experience of supporting family, friends or constituents with a serious mental illness, a learning disability or neurodiversity, or drawing on their own experiences to underscore the importance of the need for reform. I was heartened to hear from so many Members who set out the positive impact of the changes that the Bill will introduce, particularly the vital changes to ensure that patients’ voices are heard and that—as we would expect in any modern mental health service—the patient is at the heart of all decision making.

In our manifesto, we committed to modernising the Mental Health Act 1983 to give patients greater choice, autonomy, enhanced rights and support, and to ensure that everyone is treated with dignity and respect throughout their treatment. I am proud that we included this critical Bill in our first King’s Speech, and I look forward to constructive engagement with the Committee on this important legislation.

I will also take a moment to thank the Liberal Democrat Member, the name of whose constituency escapes me, and other MPs who have shone a light on the experiences of Fiona Laskaris and other families. No one should lose a child in that way. I thank Fiona for meeting me and I commend her tireless campaign efforts. The engagement that my officials and I have had with Fiona and the hon. Member has been incredibly valuable. Unfortunately, the Bill is not the appropriate vehicle to address those concerns, but I have committed to continuing engagement with Fiona and the hon. Member to further explore those issues and how we might tackle them.

[Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)]

I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking and Horley (Chris Coghlan) has been pushing forward on that very emotive and difficult issue of capacity; he brought it up in his maiden speech and has been campaigning tirelessly on it. My hon. Friend said that the Minister was very constructive in his engagement on the issue, which we very much appreciate. Even though we cannot include it in the Bill, we look forward to working on it.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the hon. Member for that intervention, not least because it gave me the opportunity to remember the constituency of the hon. Member for Dorking and Horley—please pass my apologies to him for forgetting that important point. He has been a tireless campaigner and I believe that we can find a way forward; this Bill is just not the correct vehicle for it.

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

I also want to assess the amendment that could potentially have been tabled. The Opposition were struggling to see how it would fit in, and it looks as if there is a crossover with the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Can the Minister set out why he felt that it did not quite fit into this area and how it could be taken forward, so that with cross-party work outside this Committee we can see how we can make it happen?

[Stephen Kinnock]

There were a number of technical and drafting issues. The Public Bill Office ruled that the amendment, as drafted, was out of scope. One of the key concerns was about the unintended consequences of the relationship between physical disability and mental disorder. The drafting of the amendment could have caused confusion, because it could have started to bring physical disability into the scope of the Bill, which is clearly not what it is about. There were a number of technical and drafting issues, but I do not think that they are insurmountable. We can get to where we need to be, just not through a legislative vehicle.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

I support the comments of the Minister and the hon. Member for Winchester on the issue. On a cross-party basis, I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Godalming and Ash (Sir Jeremy Hunt) has taken a close interest. Could he also be included in those discussions?

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, absolutely. We had a very constructive meeting with the right hon. Member for Godalming and Ash, along with the hon. Member for Dorking and Horley, and we are certainly open to working with that team of people, who are clearly focused on getting the results that we all want to see.

Clause 1 will make it a statutory requirement for the Secretary of State to include, in the statement of principles in the Mental Health Act code of practice, the wording of the four principles identified by the independent review. Those principles are choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit and the person as an individual. This will ensure that the review’s principles underpin the implementation of the Mental Health Act 1983 and are considered when making decisions related to care, support or the treatment provided to patients under the Act.

Embedding the principles in day-to-day practice will help to drive the culture change envisaged by the independent review. We are including the principles in the Act so that they govern the content of the code of practice and can changed only by Parliament. The Government are firmly supportive of the four principles, which were co-designed with service users during the independent review. They have informed every decision made in developing the Bill. We have embedded the principles in measures throughout the Bill, such as via the inclusion of therapeutic benefit in the detention criteria and several measures to improve patient choice and autonomy, including new treatment safeguards, introducing advance choice documents and the right to choose a nominated person.

I turn to clause 2. The code of practice for Wales already includes a statement of principles, although it is not a statutory requirement under section 118 of the Mental Health Act 1983 for Welsh Ministers to do so. Clause 2 will amend section 118 to extend subsection (2A) to Wales, along with the new subsection (2B) inserted by clause 1. To do so, clause 2 will also make amendments elsewhere in section 118 to clarify the application of each subsection, which will be to the Secretary of State in relation to England, to Welsh Ministers in relation to Wales, by virtue of the transfer of devolved functions, or to both.

The extent of the Mental Health Act is England and Wales, and there are separate codes of practice for England and Wales. Both codes of practice currently include a statement of principles, although the principles themselves vary slightly. Clause 2 will place a statutory requirement on Welsh Ministers to include the wording of the four principles identified by the independent review in the statement of principles when preparing the Mental Health Act code of practice for Wales.

As in clause 1, we are putting these principles explicitly in the Act so that they govern the content of the code of practice and so that they cannot be changed except by Parliament, or by the Senedd in respect of Wales. The Welsh code is already required to undergo scrutiny by Senedd Cymru, but clause 2 will also update the position in relation to the Senedd Cymru scrutiny procedure for the Welsh code. I commend clauses 1 and 2 to the Committee.

[Dr Evans]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I thank the Minister for his collaborative tone on some of the difficult amendments that we have discussed.

I will open where the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), left us on Second Reading. As he rightly emphasised, the importance of updating the Mental Health Act cannot be overstated. I fully share his view that it was right to take the necessary time to get this legislation right. The cross-party commitment to reform in this area, spanning both previous and current Governments, reflects a shared recognition of the urgent need to modernise our approach to mental health, particularly for those who are most vulnerable.

I welcome the Bill’s focus on enhancing patients’ voice and autonomy, including through the expansion of independent advocacy and the shift away from using police and prison cells as a place of safety. Those are positive and overdue steps. At the same time, as my right hon. Friend outlined, the Opposition’s role is to engage rigorously and constructively with the details of the Bill. Over the next few weeks, I look forward to working with colleagues on the Committee to ensure that, for example, the principle of patient choice is embedded not only in policy but in practice, such as through the use of advance choice documents.

We will continue to scrutinise the Bill in good faith, proposing improvements where needed, with the aim of delivering the strongest possible protections and outcomes for patients, their families and the community. How we begin a conversation often determines whether it becomes dialogue or dispute, so I hope that the Committee can take a constructive and productive look at what lies ahead of us.

I support clause 1, which will rightly update section 118(2B) of the Mental Health Act 1983 and embed a refreshed code of practice at the very heart of the mental health framework. This is not merely a procedural amendment; it is a statement of values, placing humanity, dignity and recovery at the centre of how we treat some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who are profoundly affected by mental health legislation. It is vital that the framework guiding professionals be clear, principled and rooted in respect for individuals.

Why do we need these changes? For too long, the Mental Health Act has been criticised as outdated and insufficiently centred on patient autonomy and dignity. Concerns raised by successive independent reviews, clinicians and, crucially, by people with lived experience have pointed to inconsistencies in how decisions are made, which can often result in over-restriction, lack of patient involvement and insufficient therapeutic focus.

The independent review of the Mental Health Act, which was published in 2018, made a landmark contribution by recommending the adoption of the four core principles in front of us today: choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit and recognition of the person as an individual. These principles are designed to shift the culture and practice towards one that respects autonomy while safeguarding wellbeing and public safety.

The historical context is that the Mental Health Act has undergone several amendments since its introduction—notably, in 2007, updates were made to some of the detention criteria and safeguards—but it was clear that the Act remained predominantly paternalistic. The 2018 independent review was a comprehensive, evidence-based re-examination of the entire Act, informed by extensive consultation, including with patients, families and clinicians. It concluded that embedding the principles formally into the law and code of practice was essential to modernise and humanise mental health law.

The four key principles—choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit and the person as an individual to be treated with dignity—are not abstract ideals. They are the foundations of compassionate, lawful and effective care. They echo the spirit of the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities and signal a move away from paternalism and towards genuine co-production of care plans. Involvement ensures that decisions are not made about patients without them. The principle of choice and autonomy reminds us that the mental illness must not be a justification for blanket restrictions. The principle of least restriction challenges us to find community-based alternatives before defaulting to detention. Therapeutic benefit ensures that care is not custodial, but meaningful healing. These principles are what most of us would hope to see for our own family.

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Finally, we hope that the new structure will not inadvertently lead to inequality. We already see that in the wider Welsh-English NHS approach. With something as sensitive as severe mental health issues, we need to do our best to guard against that. We welcome the locally tailored codes, but we must maintain shared standards of care, dignity and human rights across the UK.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the shadow Minister for his questions. I will answer to the best of my ability, but I may need to write to him on one or two points.

On enforcement and accountability, the code of practice is underpinned by the Bill and is therefore legally binding. Any divergence from the code of practice would need an extremely strong justification. That could well end up being a matter for the courts. I think that we will see a fairly strong line of sight from this primary legislation through to the code of practice and its implementation. Enforcement and accountability will be provided on that basis.

On balancing conflict, we will consult on the code of practice. Consultation will launch as soon as the Bill becomes an Act. That will be an important part of getting to the nub of some of these nuanced issues. It is quite difficult to put all that down in a document—a lot is about the culture, as the shadow Minister said—so we need an approach that has sufficient flexibility, but with clear outcomes and accountability. The consultation process will help us to get that.

[Dr Evans]

I agree with the Minister. Does the Department have a rough idea of the timetable for putting in place the code of practice? How long will the consultation need to take? When will it be implemented? How many rounds go with it? How wide is it to be—will it consult across England and Wales, or just in England?

[Stephen Kinnock]

We expect the entire process to take about a year from Royal Assent. My colleague Baroness Merron made a strong commitment from the Dispatch Box in the other place that we will present a written ministerial statement to the House every year. That will be the opportunity for us to report on the progress of all the measures that need to be implemented. A pressing task is to build the community capability required in this shift from hospital to community, which is very much part of the Bill and of our broader strategy for mental health and, indeed, health across the board. We need to report every year on that, but the first year will also be a report on the consultation and its conclusion, including the conclusion of a draft code of practice. We expect that to take approximately 12 months.

That, in some ways, has also answered the shadow Minister’s question about training and resources. A big part of the reason for the 10-year implementation period is the time that it will take to do the training and the training needs analysis, to identify trainers to deliver the training, and to get the system up to speed. That will be a fairly large chunk of the 10-year process.

[Dr Evans]

The Opposition appreciate the timescale taken to skill-up in this area, but the workforce plan is soon to be announced by the hon. Member’s Government. Has any consideration been made of what the capacity might look like, and of the crossover between having this legislation not quite in place—although likely to happen, upon Royal Assent—and its impact on updating the workforce plan on mental health?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The shadow Minister is tempting me to reveal the details of the workforce plan. While I have a huge amount of respect for this Committee, I do not think that it is where we will launch it. Absolutely, however, that is built into our thinking about the plan. There is a huge mental health challenge in our country, and those with acute and severe disorders and conditions which the Bill is designed to address are absolutely a part of that. A skilled and compassionate workforce is required, and I pay tribute to the amazing staff, mental health professionals and others who work in this area, often in incredibly challenging circumstances. We recognise and value that. The Bill does need to hook up with the workforce plan, and we are focused on that.

On Wales and the risk of divergence, the shadow Minister makes an interesting point. I guess it is about ensuring that that there is devolution, but not divergence, in the sense that we have a framework here—much of the legal framework is reserved—but the delivery of mental health services is devolved. That balance has to be right, but it is something that the two Governments have been working on since devolution started in 1998. There is a fairly mature and sophisticated culture in the interface between the two Governments. The shadow Minister is right to flag that point, and I am more than happy to seek some assurances from officials and write to him. However, as things stand, I do not see any particular risks.

[Dr Evans]

The Minister is right that there is shared working. However, part of the problem between devolved nations, such as Scotland and Wales, is that the datasets and definitions of data are often changed. Actually, the comparison of data across the UK can be quite hard to manage. Given that we are talking specifically about mental health, including some of the most at-risk people with the most severe mental health illnesses, will the Government commit to pushing for shared data that is comparable between Scotland and Wales, which we are legislating on in this case, to ensure that there is data transparency, so no one country can hide behind a different comparison or by saying, “We are looking at apples and pears”?

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[Stephen Kinnock]

It is important that we do not see devolution as a wall between the two countries; in fact, we should be sharing information and best practice—nobody has a monopoly on good ideas. The Welsh Government have achieved some things, particularly in mental health, that England could learn from, and vice versa. There is no reason why the data cannot be shared from my own practicable and pragmatic point of view. There may be some issues with data protection, but data protection law really should be implemented in the same way right across the board because it is reserved.

[Dr Evans]

I entirely agree, and I hope that data is and will be shared. The question is about the definitions and standards, such as those used for waiting times. We often use the A&E waiting time of four hours. When it comes to the most vulnerable patients who will potentially be on waiting lists, or looking at specific data, if it is categorised differently in Wales, Scotland and England, that makes it very hard to see where best practice is so that it can be shared. That is the Opposition’s concern. I know that both sides of the House have shared that concern in my five years in Parliament. Is there a mechanism to address that issue either in the Bill or in the Minister’s wider portfolio?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I see. I am sorry; I had misunderstood the shadow Minister’s point. I thought it was about sharing data on particular patients, especially those who are crossing borders. The point about waiting lists is a more difficult issue. The Welsh Government have taken a view on how best to define them. For example, I know that ambulance waiting times have been quite controversial because there is a different definition in Wales to England. Many feel that the definition adopted by the Welsh Government sets the bar at a higher standard, which can then sometimes framed, in the hurly-burly of politics, as failing more than they would be if they had used a different metric, but they have chosen to use that metric.

In the context of devolution, it is up to the Welsh Government to decide how best to evaluate the Welsh health service and its performance. I take the shadow Minister’s point on having the best alignment that we can, but when it comes to this UK Government, we will determine how performance is evaluated for England, and the Welsh Government will determine how best to evaluate performance for Wales. I think that the Welsh media, the UK media, this Parliament and the Welsh Parliament will then decide who is failing and who is succeeding.

[Aphra Brandreth (Chester South and Eddisbury) (Con)]

I represent an English constituency on the border with Wales; on some streets, one side is considered Welsh and the other English. Does the Minister recognise that it matters to people in England and Wales that there is consistency across both parts of our fantastic country, and that it is not sufficient to say that what happens in Wales will affect only Welsh people, or what happens in England will affect only English people?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I absolutely accept the point that there are deeply integrated communities on that border. A huge number of people live in England and work in Wales, or live in Wales and work in England. However, the fact of the matter is that health is a devolved policy area. It is, therefore, up to the devolved Administrations to determine how they want to measure the performance of their respective systems. It would be a violation of the principles of devolution if one Government in our United Kingdom were to dictate to another how they should evaluate their devolved policy areas—whether that is health, education or any other devolved area. I hope that I have responded to the best of my ability.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Application of the Mental Health Act 1983: autism and learning disability

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[Dr Evans]

The hon. Member is correct about the way in which the world looks at this issue. The problem is that we are sat here debating definitions in legislation that is 40 years old. Will we be here in 40 years debating definitions that have moved on? The amendment suggests that, somehow, we need to try to ensure that legislation is flexible and updated enough, and has the scrutiny and safeguards in place. That relates to not just health, but any part of government that we tend to look at in the House.

I wanted to speak to the amendment to probe the Government on how they will safeguard the legislation. I do not have all the answers, but this is important. I do not want to see my successors—the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth from whatever party—sat here debating this issue in 40 years’ time because the definitions that we happen to set today have become outdated and have unintended consequences.

That is the balance that I am looking for. I do not see a body across the UK, given that this is UK legislation, that fulfils this role. It could be a transitory role or fully established. A psychiatrist could take it on, or it could come under NICE. With the abolition of NHS England, it could be a new role for the Department of Health to take on. All those are viable vehicles that could potentially look into the definitions. I want to ensure that what we pass in Parliament actually translates into the real world for clinicians, patients and the public.

The Opposition can see the argument both ways, as I mentioned. Perhaps it would be useful to have an expert panel, with representatives of clinicians, legal experts and service users to support regulatory updates. I put those questions to the Minister and I look forward to his answers.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley for moving the amendment on behalf of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, and to the shadow Minister for speaking to it.

As this regulation-making power would amend primary legislation, it would signify a Henry VIII power that the Government consider to be unjustified. We have significant concern that it could change the way in which the Bill applies to people with certain conditions without appropriate consultation or parliamentary scrutiny. The serious matter of detention for compulsory treatment should be considered in primary legislation.

The hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley spoke about the need to stay in touch with our evolving understanding of these terms and conditions. My view is that the Bill does that. We have modified the meaning of mental disorder by including new definitions of autism, learning disability and psychiatric disorder. That acknowledges the advancement in our understanding of learning disabilities and autism, and how the Bill should apply in respect of those conditions. Any future change to the definitions should be a matter for Parliament, informed by strong evidence and consultation with the public.

For those reasons, I ask the hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley to withdraw the amendment.

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss schedule 1.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Currently, a person with a learning disability can be detained for treatment under section 3 of the Mental Health Act when their learning disability

“is associated with abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct”.

A person can be detained under section 3 on the basis of being autistic, which is classed as a mental disorder under the Act. However, we know that people with a learning disability and autistic people may sometimes be detained because of needs that have arisen due to insufficient community support, rather than for treatment of a mental health condition, and compulsory treatment in hospital settings is rarely likely to be helpful, particularly for autistic people.

Clause 3 and schedule 1 will insert new definitions in the Act and make amendments using those definitions throughout the Act. Those amendments will remove, for the purposes of part 2 of the Act, learning disability and autism from the conditions for which a person can be detained for compulsory treatment. It will be possible to detain someone for treatment under part 2 only if they satisfy the conditions set out in section 3, as amended by the Bill. These include that they have a “psychiatric disorder”, which is a

“mental disorder other than autism or learning disability”.

The changes will not apply to section 2 of the Act, under which a person can be detained for a maximum of 28 days for assessment to understand whether they have a psychiatric disorder that warrants detention under section 3. The revised detention criteria will not apply to part 3, so people in the criminal justice system can continue to be diverted to hospital, where appropriate, to access the specialist support they may need.

We recognise the importance of implementation in ensuring these reforms have their intended effect. For this reason, the proposed changes will be commenced only when there are strong community services in place. I commend the clause and schedule to the Committee.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

The red thread that goes through all those questions, from both my hon. Friend and the Opposition spokesman, is very much about how we are going to build a clear and strong understanding of what good community support looks like, and then build towards it so that we achieve the aims that we set out for ourselves. In many ways, that is a difficult question to answer in this Committee, because an important part of the answer will come from the consultation on the code of practice that will be launched as soon as the Bill gets Royal Assent.

The Government believe passionately in making policy on the basis of evidence, so we need that consultation and input for the code of practice. We need a clear definition based on engagement with those who are at the cutting edge of delivering these services, so that we can define the new reality that we want to work towards, and then implement it step by step.

I apologise to Committee members for the fact that in some ways that is a step beyond what we are doing here in scrutinising the Bill. We will, I hope, pass the Bill, and then it will get Royal Assent. From that day, we will be straining every sinew to get community services to where they need to be.

[Jen Craft (Thurrock) (Lab)]

I do not want to speak outside the scope of the clause, but I would very much welcome a commitment from the Minister on ensuring that people with learning disabilities and/or autism are part of the process of the consultation to produce guidance on what good community services look like, and that they are engaged with from the start in a very real and meaningful way.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Absolutely, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her outstanding work in the all-party parliamentary group; I am looking forward to meeting with the APPG as soon as diary time can be organised.

There is absolutely no point in the Government making policy in an ivory tower in Westminster or Whitehall. Policy must be evidence-based and based on the real, lived experience of patients—we are very committed to building a patient-centric national health service—and practitioners. If we try to make policy without involving the voices of those people, the policy will fail; we know that from bitter experience.

[David Burton-Sampson (Southend West and Leigh) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Vickers. I, too, have received messages from organisations in my constituency that welcome clause 3 and clause 4, which I will speak to later. On the implementation, however, they have made it very clear that it is really important to hear the voices of the individuals who will be impacted and their families. As we work with the ICBs, local authorities and commissioners to implement these new regulations, I seek an assurance that the voices of the community will be heard.

[Stephen Kinnock]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that those voices must be heard. One example is that we must produce a code of practice to ensure that approved mental health professionals are better supported in their decision making, including when assessing whether somebody with a learning disability or an autistic person has a co-occurring mental disorder. At the heart of the process are the assessment and the definition, and the pathway that flows from that. That code of practice can be developed only on the basis of dialogue and engagement with precisely the people he has talked about.

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Building on the Minister’s last point, can he reassure the Committee that any consultation will have a strong focus on ensuring that practitioners have the training and, most importantly, the resources that they need to achieve a seamless transition from one set of regulations to another?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We are moving to a nuanced position that is about defining where there are co-occurring conditions and where there are not. I think everybody recognises that that is, by definition, a complex process, so the training and the code of practice that go around it will be vital.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

In the past, many people with mental health disorders have been detained in hospitals for months or even years because of a lack of proper social care provision in the community. Will the Minister also ensure that local communities, which will be providing social care for patients who are discharged from hospital, are part of that discussion?

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is absolutely a team effort. Sadly, when people have severe and acute mental health disorders, a multi-agency effort is often required to support them and to help them to get the treatment they need. The process should not be about trying to isolate people. We are keen to ensure that people stay in mainstream society and remain as integrated as possible, because that is often an important part of supporting their mental health condition.

All of that means that local authorities, mental health professionals, social workers, and often children’s social care professionals or adult social care professionals are important in the process—it requires a team effort. That integrated approach will be really important as we build the community services that we want to see.

[Gregory Stafford]

On the point made by the hon. Member for Ashford about local authorities, given that the Government are devolving and reorganising local government structures across parts of the country, how will the Minister ensure that the standards around this issue—and other health and social care issues—are maintained? That restructuring means that we will have a whole load of new local authorities that do not necessarily have experience of dealing with this area.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The devolution Bill and the process of reorganising and restructuring are based on two really strong principles: that it is up to us through legislation to create the outcomes that we need to see delivered across the country and that there are clear standards and targets that we need to see met. But the implementation work needs to be done to deliver those desired outcomes and targets. Local authorities are empowered to do that, which is why we are seeing, for example, a lot of breaking down of ringfencing. The Government are keen to massively reduce the amount of ringfencing, because that has become a straitjacket for local authorities, integrated care boards and others in how they can best manage their portfolio of activities and deliver that devolved power and responsibility.

The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that we want to devolve. We are absolutely committed to decentralising and we believe that is an important part of modern governance. Of course, that has to be done within a framework of set targets and the development of community services that the Bill commits to. All of that will come together to enable those at the coalface, who are best placed to understand them, how to deliver those services to their communities.

[Dr Evans]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I just need to turn to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley. On strong duties, the code of practice flows from the primary legislation and therefore has a statutory power. There is no stronger power to ensure that people with learning disabilities and autism get the treatment, service and support that they require. The system will have a statutory duty to ensure that that happens within the framework of the legislation.

My hon. Friend is right that the transition from children’s to adult services is a major challenge. I am engaging with colleagues in the Department for Education about that to ensure that conversations about the transition happen upstream. We do not want a situation where an individual is looked after until they are 18 and then handed over without any prior conversations and engagement. We want the handover from one service to the other to be as seamless as possible. Our commitment to dynamic support registers will help in this context. They will be an important tool for understanding the needs of individuals who are at risk of admission and for getting that information into the system across the board prior to any detention.

My hon. Friend also asked about carers who so often pick up the baton in the gaps in community provision. She is absolutely right to flag that. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the millions of unpaid carers across our country, many of them dealing with extremely challenging family situations. The system would simply collapse without them, so she is right to pay tribute to those people.

[Dr Evans]

I want to expand a little on the practicalities and respond to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon about local authorities. I declare an interest because Leicestershire is one of the 21 county councils going through a devolution process. About 85% of its budget deals with special educational needs and social care. It is part of an ICB where the mental health team and primary and secondary care come together, but there is oversight from NHS England.

With so many moving parts, including the legislation we are putting in place, the budgetary constraints for ICBs, and the fact that we are getting rid of NHS England, there is a real worry among Opposition Members that things could drop through the gap, or more likely, that because we are moving all these things at the same time, we do not decide which is the fixed point that leads where others follow. If we are trying to cut costs in the ICBs, if NHS England is going over the next two years, and if devolution of responsibilities is also happening over the next couple of years with unitary councils forming, we will create a sticky situation for who is actually leading on this issue. At the heart of it are the clinicians and the patients who could fall through the gap.

What consideration has been given to the top-down strategy for how to incorporate all that? The Minister has talked about a red thread that runs through it all, but is there a running plan? Different Departments, agencies and areas of the country are involved. They are trying to come together to manage their budgets, legislation and policies. It is a complex situation to work through. The imperative part—the legislation—is almost the easier part to get in place; it is the delivery that is all-important. Can the Minister explain further how those three things tessellate?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I do not know whether I will be able to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question in its entirety, because quite a lot of that is being led by my colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government—in the English devolution Bill, for example. On the part of his question relating to the Department of Health and Social Care, we came to the view following the general election last year that NHS England was an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. We think it is important that there is a clear line of accountability from the Secretary of State to Ministers, to ICBs, to trusts and to the system per se for delivery. That line of accountability was being blurred by NHS England, which is why we have removed it from the equation.

The hon. Gentleman is right that there are a lot of moving parts, but, by definition, a reform agenda creates change and some turbulence. We believe that is the only way we will get the system to where we need it to be so that we can deliver the three big shifts in our 10-year health plan: the shifts from hospital to community, from sickness to prevention and from analogue to digital. Many of the questions he is asking will be answered in the 10-year plan. He does not have long to wait for that to be published; it is coming very soon.

I reiterate that the principle underlying all of this is about empowering, devolving and giving agency to those closest to the communities they serve, because they are best placed to deliver. That all has to fit into the Bill, but the fundamental principle underpinning the Bill is the right one: it is about devolution, and about being patient-centric. The Bill deals with a cohort of people whose needs should drive the services that we design and deliver.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1 agreed to.

Clause 4

People with autism or learning disability

[Dr Chambers]

I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 4, page 4, line 41, at end insert—

“(iv) housing.”

This amendment ensures that housing needs are considered as part of care, education and treatment review meetings.