Strength of the UK’s Armed Forces

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

May I place on record my sympathy for the family of Cheryl Gillan, our colleague? She was not in my political party, but she was somebody whom I both liked and respected.

Today’s debate is very important; I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) for introducing it from the Front Bench. The Minister for the Armed Forces was absolutely wrong to pose it as technology versus the size of our armed forces. That is the wrong calculation to make. It is not about sentimentality, for those of us who have had the opportunity to see our armed forces in operation around the world, in conflict zones and in peacekeeping roles. They do a magnificent job—pound for pound, they are probably among the very best-trained and best operational armed forces on this planet—but they need numbers. We saw that in places such as Sierra Leone, where the numbers of people mattered. We saw it with the rotation of troops in Afghanistan, when our troops came back tired from their tours of duty—too tired, on some occasions. We need numbers there.

To pose the question as being about numbers of Army personnel versus technology is simply wrong. Yes, of course we need investment in the technologies of the future, in cyber, in space and in deep ocean activities, but that does not preclude the need for numbers in our armed forces. The significant reduction that my right hon. Friend pointed out—some 35,000 fewer personnel in our Army by the end of the process—is difficult to comprehend, because it means that we will end up making hard choices.

I put it to the Minister: will those hard choices mean that we cannot engage in a Sierra Leone of the future? Will they mean that our armed forces cannot fill the £17 billion-plus equipment deficit or go into conflict zones properly equipped? Those would be unacceptable hard choices. Will they mean that in future, because of our lack of personnel, we cannot do things we ought to do? As the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) said, they are choices that we simply should not be making in this period of enormous uncertainty around the world. I appeal to the Minister to appeal in turn to his Government colleagues to think very hard about these cuts.

At the height of the cold war and as we began to come out of it, one thing we learned was that making the world secure for our armed forces was also making it secure for those whom we saw as our adversaries. President Biden has offered President Putin a summit. I have no truck with President Putin and the malign way in which he operates his Government, but we do have to talk. We have to begin to see whether there is any capacity —there may not be—to revive the treaties on conventional forces in Europe and on nuclear deployments.

In the end, making the world a safer place, at least in those areas of activity, will make a material difference in easing some of the pressures on our armed forces and what they do. That is not a pipe dream and it is not pious; it is common sense to say, “Yes, we need the right numbers in our armed forces and we need technologies, but we also need to work to create a safer and better world.”

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I find it interesting that only a few weeks ago the hon. Lady was voting against a proposition from her own Back Benchers for the United Kingdom to stay within the customs union. It is also the case that the announcement made by the Leader of the Opposition was about staying within a customs union, not the customs union; in terms of listening to the voice of industry, there is not much in common between what was said by the Leader of the Opposition and the CBI.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Q5. What recent assessment he has made of the preparedness of the armed forces to adapt to new and changing strategic threats.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Gavin Williamson)]

Our armed forces are among the very best in the world. Through the modernising defence programme, we will assess the ever-changing threats that this country faces and understand what we can do to make them ever more effective at keeping us safe today and into the future.

[Tony Lloyd]

The Defence Secretary will recognise, given his earlier answers, that the threats that we face—both conventional and from new forms of technology—are massive and varied, and come not simply from Russia, but from many different sources. In that context, he talks about a fiscally non-neutral defence review. Will he tell us whether the Chancellor has agreed to sign up to that process?

[Gavin Williamson]

When the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and I met and agreed the terms of reference of the modernising defence programme, we were absolutely clear that it was not to be fiscally neutral. We were to understand what the threats were and understand the capabilities that were needed, and make sure that the Ministry of Defence leads a study to ensure that we are best equipped to deal with those threats.

Modernising Defence Programme

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 25th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

One of the key elements of this programme is looking at how we can use defence to increase the prosperity of the nation. We talk about global Britain and about international diplomacy, and our armed forces are virtually always the best diplomats, because when others see British forces—whether the British Army, the Royal Air Force or the Royal Navy—they perceive them as a real symbol of Britain’s reach and what we can achieve in the world, and we will certainly be looking far beyond Suez.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Defence Secretary knows that nobody in the House today believes our defence forces are anything other than underfunded, but against that background and if he is to have the meaningful conversation with the nation indicated in his statement, will he give early consideration to publishing the terms of reference and the perception of the changing strategic threats that this nation of ours faces?

[Gavin Williamson]

The NSCR will be looking at producing a document explaining how it sees the changed threats and how we should respond to them, and that will be in the public domain. We need to have a more active debate—we all encourage that—because the threats we are facing are developing very quickly. Just five years ago, Russia was not seen as a real threat to our national security. We have to start talking about it. If we do not talk about it, people do not understand those threats. I will certainly be encouraging that debate going forward.

Counter-Daesh Update

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 13th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sir Michael Fallon]

The purpose of part of the work that is being done in the coalition is to recover sensitive material in both Mosul and Raqqa—as the Syrian democratic forces move into Raqqa—that will enable us to track down foreign fighters, particularly British fighters, who have been based in either city, and, indeed, foreign fighters in those cities who have been involved in planning external attacks on the cities of western Europe. We are urgently trying to recover that material, which will enable us to identify more of those who are involved in planning of that kind and thus ensure that they are detained and properly held to account.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

May I ask a question on the same theme? The Secretary of State mentioned Interpol. Welcome though the liberation of Mosul is, we know that the capacity to deal with returnees from Iraq poses a challenge to our already overstretched intelligence and counter-terrorism services. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that the Government have sufficient capacity, not just in this country but throughout Europe, to ensure that returnees are dealt with appropriately?

[Sir Michael Fallon]

Yes. We are putting extra resources into our agencies to ensure that that is being done in this country, and we are working with other police forces across the coalition to share intelligence about the foreign fighters who are identified so that we have better information when they attempt to cross the borders back into western Europe, and so that each of us understands how we are now likely to prosecute those who have been involved in the fighting.

Afghanistan (Troop Levels)

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that when Brigadier Patrick Sanders, who commanded 20th Armoured Brigade during Herrick 15, was in the House on Tuesday evening, he said, as Members who were there will have heard, that the equipment that he had available during his tour was the best that he had known in his 26 years in the Army. The soldiers who are fighting for us have the best personal protection equipment they have ever had and their commanders have the enablers that they need. I have no doubt that, at long last, we have the kit that we need to fight this campaign.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

It is not obvious that the political process has made the same progress as the military one. In that context, does President Karzai have the capacity to deal with the issues that the Secretary of State has mentioned today, such as corruption, and allow more people to be reintegrated? In any case, does he have the capacity to have proper dialogue with his previous political opponents? Without a political solution there will be no long-term capacity for peace.