Money Transfer Accounts and Remittance Sector

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Kevin Brennan]

It is unfortunate that sound carries, Mr Owen, but it is distracting, so I am grateful for your assistance.

Those large banks and institutions not only have been fined, but have been bailed out by ordinary taxpayers to the tune of billions of pounds to stop them failing as a result of their greed. Their reward for that malfeasance has been a handout from Governments, yet these small businesses, against which much has been insinuated but nothing actually proved, have been squashed by the big banks’ refusal to allow them the facilities that they need to survive, effectively denying them the air that they need to breathe as businesses. That is an intolerable abuse, so the Government should be acting with the utmost urgency to fix it.

So far the Government have taken some steps, especially in relation to Somalia. In September they announced an action group on cross-border remittances, before announcing its terms of reference in December. However, four months after the action group was set up, why—to my knowledge, unless the Minister is going to make an announcement today—has no chair of the group been appointed and why have no meetings taken place? I understand that, as a direct result of today’s debate, a date has finally been set for the group’s first meeting, but the record so far smacks more of inaction than action. Will he tell us today who is to chair the group, and will he confirm when it will meet? We all recognise the danger of terrorism, but why has there not been more focus on helping such remittance businesses to avoid risks, rather than shutting them down when there is no evidence of wrongdoing?

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

When the Secretary of State for International Development announced the setting up of the action group on cross-border remittances, she said, in reply to a written question from the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), that part of its purpose would be to develop

“a safe corridor pilot to ensure the continued flow of remittances to Somalia through secure, legitimate and accessible channels.”—[Official Report, 27 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 342W.]

The working group was given a one-year timetable. Does the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) agree that it is not unreasonable for the House to expect a complete solution to the problem and that Her Majesty’s Government should have found a way of ensuring that remittances from UK citizens can get to developing countries within, at the very latest, the one-year timetable set out by the Secretary of State?

[Kevin Brennan]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is important that we get on with it. My point is that, four months after the announcement that the action group would be set up, it has not yet met, and as far as I am aware we do not know who will chair it, unless the Minister can give us more information in his speech.

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[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) for securing the debate and for working with me and other colleagues on this very important subject and the Save Remittance Giving campaign, which had the support of 47 Labour MPs and, later, MPs from other parties. Notably, it has also had the support of nearly 130,000 members of the public. The campaign has been led particularly by the Somali community, but there are others involved, including communities throughout the country who have a direct interest in remittance giving; many non-governmental organisations, such as Oxfam; and constituents whose origins are not in developing countries but who understand how important it is that we support remittance giving.

Remittance giving plays a vital role in reinforcing and complementing our international aid efforts to developing countries such as Somalia, and particularly areas such as Somaliland, which provide a beacon of hope for that country, showing how remittances, along with development aid and a transition to peace and stability, are vital. If we need an example of a country that could make great strides through remittance contributions, that is the country to look at. I will focus on Somaliland and Somalia today, because of the unique situation that there is no banking system in that country.

There are many parallels. The Syria conference starts today, and when we debate how countries can move towards a peace settlement, the question of countries in conflict or coming out of conflict without banking systems becomes ever more important. Somalia and Somaliland are an example of the importance of banking and remittance that, if we can find a solution to the current problem, will pave the way for other countries coming out of conflict that do not have banking systems. In such circumstances, people need to be able to remit legally—through legitimate means—in a proper banking process.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I think the whole House supports the work that the hon. Lady and others have been doing in campaigning on remittances. She is perfectly right to draw the attention of the House to the fact that Somaliland and Somalia have no banking system—in Hargeisa, one sees people literally pushing wheelbarrows around with Somali shillings. Does she agree that one thing that the Department for International Development and all of us should be trying to do is help both Somalia and Somaliland to develop a genuine banking system? There needs to be a clearing banking system in both Mogadishu and Hargeisa if those countries are to have any sustainable development.

Payday Loan Companies

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is right to focus on the need for us to review the existing regulations. He is also right to draw attention to the problems involved in payday lending. As he will know, the Archbishop of Canterbury is keen for us to try to compete payday lenders out of existence. I hope that he and the House will be pleased to learn that the Archbishop has appointed Sir Hector Sants to lead a taskforce that will try to establish what more can be done to improve competition and the alternative market. Of course, that will not happen overnight.

[Mr Bailey]

I broadly support that course of action. I think that there is a sector of the market to which payday lenders can be relevant, but that sector must be closely regulated and transparent, and there must be a process that prevents lenders from adding to the problems of those who apply to them for loans. I shall say more about that, and about the important issue of competition.

I intend to talk about just one significant part of the industry, but let me first point out that much of the publicity about the industry has focused on the interest rate charged by payday lenders and the associated costs. That is obviously crucial in terms of the impact that it has on the people who take out the loans, but I think that we should view the issue much more broadly. We should think about the way in which payday lenders promote themselves, and the way in which they lure people into taking out loans. We should think about the processes in which they engage, which do not ensure that the loans given to people are appropriate to their personal needs, as well as how much they charge and how much they make from those charges. The Select Committee’s recommendations cover all those issues.

I think that the main problem—which was reflected in the 2013 OFT review of payday websites—is that payday lenders who are in competition with each other do not operate on a competitive price-offering basis; they operate on the basis of speed of access to such loans and lack of accountability. Anybody who goes on a payday loan site will see that the key aspects of every company advert are speed of access and lack of accountability. The OFT review made a substantial impact. As a result of the investigation, 19 of the 50 operators left the market, three had their licences revoked and three surrendered them. That alone shows the appalling misrepresentation that was going on at that point, but should anybody believe that that problem is over as a result of that action, even a cursory glance at their advertising will show that it is not. There are still many areas of enormous concern, and I know other Members will want to comment on them.

I want to concentrate on the advertising element. I have mentioned that the emphasis is on speed, ease of reading and ease of application. I took one advert at random. It says, “Great news!” and

“We have 7 lenders who can offer you £1,000—paid online today!..Complete our 1-minute verification form.”

For an industry that claims to be cleaning up its act and not to be lending to those who cannot afford to pay back, to offer to verify the appropriateness of a loan to somebody in a one-minute online process defies all credibility.

I looked at another advert that had a beautifully seductive cheery pink pig. I could not help but marvel at how the piggy-bank, a symbol over the decades of thrift and financial responsibility, should be misused in such a way to promote what is perhaps some of the most irresponsible lending, but that is how these companies advertise on their websites.

We found the television advertising to be the most concerning of all, however. Ofcom carried out research on this. In 2008 there were 12 million impacts, and in 2012 there were 7.56 billion impacts, with 152 loan adverts per viewer per year. Most seriously of all, children aged between four and 15 saw 3 million adverts, an average of 70 per child per year.

The Committee recommends that all advertising targeted at children should be banned. I acknowledge that there are problems around this, because the amount of advertising aired directly in children’s programmes is relatively small. However, there is an enormous amount shown during programmes that children are likely to watch. These adverts are largely focused on daytime and early-evening television, which is far more likely to be seen by children.

I shall now quote an e-mail I received from a teacher. She said:

“I asked the children what they could do if there was something they wanted to buy and didn’t have the money for yet. Almost all the hands went up (Only one child said they should save up) and I was given the names of several payday loan companies…They said that it was on TV and then most of them sang the song in the advert.”

Certainly the cartoon style of some of the adverts can only be interpreted as being geared for children.

The teacher went on to say:

“The advertising seems to have ‘normalised’ payday loans for the children as a way to buy things instead of saving and I feel that by the time these children are adults they won’t think twice about taking out a payday loan to pay for it. I spoke to them about interest charges and none of them had realised that these companies were anything other than a benign service helping people to pay for things.”

This ties in with the research done by Martin Lewis. He stated in his evidence to the Committee that he thought that in effect these companies were grooming children. Those are strong words, but the evidence so far is that the number of children seeing these adverts and the impact they are having on them is such that we cannot stand aside and disregard that. I understand the broader issues about regulating advertisements, but I feel there is now a huge body of evidence to demonstrate that the Advertising Standards Authority should be working with the financial services industry and others to ensure that there is a code of practice so that children are not subjected to such a level of pressure.

I cannot believe all this is coincidental. Parents respond to pester-power from their children, and if those children believe it is so easy to obtain money, the pressures that adults may feel are multiplied many times. That is reinforced by constant demands from their children to spend money they cannot afford.

I have spoken about just one element of this issue. There are many others that are equally important and significant and equally damaging to people’s personal financial situations. I know many colleagues will want to highlight those and I will not try to pre-empt them. I will instead conclude my remarks at this point, having highlighted that particular recommendation.

Autumn Statement

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

I will certainly look at the report that hon. Gentleman mentions. As I said in my speech, it is right for all of us to remember that people are enduring some very adverse weather conditions on the east coast of Britain and our emergency services are working hard to protect them.

On the broader point, we are investing in flood defences. We have recently increased the investment going into flood defences, and that is all part of the long-term infrastructure plan that this country needs.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Is it not correct that there were those who predicted that my right hon. Friend’s policies would lead to a double-dip recession and increases in unemployment, and that it would be impossible to reduce public spending at the same time as restoring the economy to growth? In those predictions, they were wrong, wrong, wrong. The national nightmare would be if the people who made those predictions were allowed anywhere near the door of No. 11 Downing street.

[Mr Osborne]

My hon. Friend is right. It is not just that they got the predictions wrong: it is what that says about their governing philosophy—that they could go on spending and borrowing and running up the deficit with no consequences whatever. Unfortunately they were let near the door of No. 11 in the last decade and that is one of the reasons we are all clearing up this mess at the moment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nicky Morgan]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The average taxpayer will be better off by £700 a year as a result of these changes.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

15. What recent steps he has taken to increase competitiveness in the banking sector.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)]

The Government are driving a wide-ranging and ambitious programme of reforms to make the banking sector more competitive and to give consumers a better deal. This includes reducing market barriers, encouraging current account switching, and putting competition at the heart of the regulatory system.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Will my hon. Friend commend the Church Commissioners for their investment in Williams and Glyn’s as a new competitive bank that intends to have the highest ethical standards? As well as increasing competition in banking, is it not also crucial that we have a system of banking regulation with clear accountability and responsibility, avoiding mistakes in the system designed by the previous Administration?

[Sajid Javid]

I congratulate the Church Commissioners on their role and the expertise that they bring. Given that my hon. Friend is a commissioner, I take this opportunity to congratulate him too. He is right to highlight the fact that the previous Government’s changes to financial regulation contributed significantly to the banking crisis in 2008. That caused misery and hardship for millions of hard-working families, yet I notice that the Opposition have yet to apologise.

Corporate Structures and Financial Crime

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the use of corporate structures in the UK and money laundering, tax evasion and other financial crime.

It gives me pleasure to introduce the debate and to thank the many Members from all parties who proposed it to the Backbench Business Committee, which we also thank for granting us the time for it. Perhaps in anticipation of it, earlier this week the Financial Conduct Authority made by far its strongest ever comment, including those of its predecessor organisation the Financial Services Authority, about the banks and so on. As a relevant introduction to the debate, let me quote Tracey McDermott, head of enforcement at the FSA, who this week said that banks’ trade finance businesses

“remained particularly vulnerable to abuse by criminals and terrorists, and that in some cases the shipments being funded by lenders were just ‘fresh air’.”

Martin Wheatley, the new chief executive of the FCA, warned that organised criminal gangs “filtered, cleaned and rebottled” £10 billion in the UK every year using banks and other financial services.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Mann]

I will finish my introduction first, because banks are just one aspect of the problem and I want to focus on all aspects in my brief comments.

The problem is that we have opaque structures that mean that people can avoid tax and participate in illegal activities such as smuggling and money laundering. The amount of unregistered money involved is estimated by some analysts worldwide as being in excess of £20 trillion. A third of that is estimated to be directly linked with the European Union, and a third with UK Crown dependencies.

I will illustrate how the problem works. An individual sets up a firm in a country that keeps the names of directors a secret, then links that firm with another firm in a respectable place such as the United Kingdom, where the details of who owns a company do not have to be registered if it is owned by another company. They then set up nominees to be directors of the opaque firm, register with the corporate registry in the initial country, open a bank account for the original firm and funnel money through the firm in the legitimate area to the original firm in the opaque country.

There are many examples of that, and all areas of our national life, such as football, now seem to be covered by such structures. Whether it is illegal or legal, it is a major problem for transparency. We as legislators should be particularly concerned about any illegal aspects, and the banks have been at the forefront of those, as we have seen with the problems of money laundering. HSBC funded Iran with transactions involving £19.4 billion through shell companies over seven years, through the Channel Islands and the Cayman Islands. That broke sanctions but was incredibly hard to trace, because it happened through opaque shell companies

In the case of crime, in one year alone the same company funnelled £7 billion through the Mexican Zetas drug cartel, the biggest and most violent criminal agency anywhere in the world. Again, it did so through shell operations. Various mafias have also been involved.

The BBC’s “Panorama” exposed rather efficiently a woman called Lana Zamba, a Russian-born Cypriot yoga teacher, who was the director of a firm called Nomirex and 23 other UK-based firms. Records showed that those firms were inactive between 2007 and 2009, but “Panorama” demonstrated that £350 million had passed through them in that time.

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[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

This is probably the first time in my parliamentary career that I find myself almost entirely in agreement with the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). I think it is right to say—I am sure my hon. Friend the Minister will confirm this—that so too does the Prime Minister. He has stated that he thinks beneficial ownership information should be in the public domain. The head of tax at the CBI has also stated that he thinks that information should be public, saying that it is a “no brainer”. The International Banking Federation has said that this needs to be done, and it supports public registries as a way of making anti-money laundering and “know your customer” requirements both less expensive and more effective.

I wanted to intervene on the hon. Member for Bassetlaw to make a point about money laundering, which now punishes lots of innocent people. One of the biggest supporters of international development in countries like Somaliland or Somalia, are remittances, but they need systems to make them work. Barclays bank, which has facilitated remittances, is now suspending that facility. It is not that it thinks the people receiving the money in Hargeisa or Mogadishu are abusing it; it is concerned that it can no longer properly police who pays the money in because of money laundering. Therefore, large numbers of people living in grinding poverty around the world will now be denied access to an important part of their development funding because of the actions of those who have been engaged in criminal money laundering for a long time.

Anyone who becomes a company director—the Register of Members’ Financial Interests shows that I am a director of a number of companies—must register at Companies House. That includes registering all the other companies of which they are a director and their home address. All sorts of public information is involved, which can be found not only by shareholders but by the general public, the media and non-governmental organisations. The information is totally accessible. There is absolutely no valid reason why that should not apply to corporate structures across the world. It is absolutely right that we should be at the forefront of that.

I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) about the overseas territories. Some 20 years ago, I was a junior Minister in the Foreign Office under Douglas Hurd—now Lord Hurd—as Secretary of State. We undertook a review of the contingent liabilities for the dependent territories, as they then were. There are considerable contingent liabilities, as we saw with the Falkland Islands and elsewhere. Those territories look to us to offer them protection, but as my hon. Friend pointed out in an intervention, there is a quid pro quo. The quid pro quo should be that if they wish to remain overseas territories and benefit from the Crown, the Union flag and all that protection, we should be able to expect their banking systems and company registries to comply with accepted international norms of transparency and accountability.

I am conscious that a number of people want to take part in this debate. What has been put forward this afternoon is substantially a no-brainer. When my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary replies to the debate, I hope he will make it clear that what has been put forward has the full support of the Government, as I am sure it does. As the hon. Member for Bassetlaw made clear, the challenge for us will be ensuring that other G8 countries support us. However, there is absolutely no reason why we should not take a global lead on this—and be proud to take a lead—while the UK has the presidency of the G8.

Royal Bank of Scotland

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware from the RBS statement yesterday that one reason why it has taken this step is that it believes, as do the Government, that RBS should become more focused on British business and British jobs. If the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that Scotland should vote next year to stay in Britain, that will certainly help the situation, making sure that when RBS talks about Britain, it is talking about the Britain we know today.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Stephen Hester, who happens to be one of my constituents, was given a pretty poisoned chalice by the last Labour Chancellor when Fred Goodwin stepped down and that he has actually done an extremely good job in rescuing RBS and bringing it back from the brink? What I think most of my constituents are concerned about now is whether RBS is going to be a bank for small and medium-sized businesses, a bank for middle England and a bank for market towns such as Banbury and Bicester, helping to get SMEs and the economy moving and going forward.

[Sajid Javid]

I share the concerns that my hon. Friend has articulated. He will have noticed from my speech that I said RBS under Stephen Hester has made huge progress in becoming focused on lending to British businesses. I am confident that, because of the plans that have been set in place, that will become even more prominent in RBS’s strategy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I have to say that I do not really accept that. The evidence of previous attempts to support housing transactions through stamp duty cuts is not all that positive. The Government have sought to make the stamp duty system more progressive, asking those with the largest properties to pay more. Indeed, I hope my hon. Friend welcomes the introduction, from the beginning of April, of a new annual charge for homes owned by offshore companies—a mansion tax for tax dodgers, as it were.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

New housing requires land for building, so it is good news that the Government are making significant sites available for new housing, such as the surplus Ministry of Defence land in Bicester. We intend to take advantage of that by building a new garden city in Bicester, because people need decent homes for the 21st century.

[Danny Alexander]

I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. I particularly welcome his comments on the potential for garden cities to add substantially to the housing supply, a matter on which the Government will make further statements in the next few months.

Economic Policy

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Monday 25th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

The problem with the hon. Gentleman is that he is pretty free with his calls for people to go. The last person he called on to go was the shadow Chancellor.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Is it not correct that even before the crisis struck we had pretty much the biggest structural deficit in the world as a consequence of the previous Government’s policies? It is no wonder that we have been losing ground to economies such as those of India and China. It is only if we stick to our guns that we will sort out our position to become increasingly internationally competitive with other economies.

[Mr Osborne]

My hon. Friend is right. The UK had the highest structural deficit of the G7 going into the financial crisis. That was confirmed by the IMF just before Christmas. He is also right about our trade patterns. When this Government came to office we were exporting more to Ireland than to the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—combined. We are seeking to expand our trade with those countries and it has been going up markedly. I think there has been an almost 100% increase in our trade with China and, of course, the Prime Minister led a high-powered business delegation to India only last week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: that is one of the reasons why we were determined to reverse, and then to cancel, the fuel tax increase proposed by the Labour party. As for the rural scheme that he mentioned, we are having conversations with the European Commission in order to establish whether we can proceed with it.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

10. What steps he is taking to reduce the cost of living.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

15. What steps he is taking to reduce the cost of living.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

The Government continue to take steps to support households. We will increase the personal allowance further to £9,440 in April 2013 to support hard-working individuals. That cash increase of £1,335 in 2013-14 is the largest ever. We have also cancelled the 3p fuel duty increase that was planned for January, and announced a third council tax freeze and a two-year reduction in the cap on rail fares.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I just want to make sure that I have got my figures right. Am I correct in thinking that under the Labour Government fuel duty rose by 20p, and that had they remained in power, they would have planned for it to rise by 13p more than it will rise under this Government?

[Danny Alexander]

As usual, my hon. Friend has his facts absolutely right. The action taken on fuel duty by this Government means that in April next year, pump prices will be approximately 13p a litre lower than they would have been had the last Government remained in office.

Multiannual Financial Framework

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

rose—

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

I do not want to give way to lots of people, as that would steal away time from others, but I can never resist the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin).

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[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

All Government Members will recognise how deeply shabby Opposition Front Benchers’ behaviour has been. I was a Member of the House when Blair negotiated away a large part of the rebate on the understanding that the common agricultural policy would be reformed. A large part of the rebate disappeared, but the CAP was not reformed, and Labour Members now have the audacity to complain that the CAP needs reform. It is a deeply shabby performance this afternoon by the Labour party and the official Opposition.

I want to address my comments in the short time I have to my hon. Friends. On the specific motion, hon. Members will agree that, if the Prime Minister manages to negotiate a real-terms freeze in the EU budget, it will be the toughest financial negotiated settlement the EU has seen. If he achieves that, he will have achieved something that no one has achieved before. That is a matter of fact.

As the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), who used to chair the Foreign Affairs Committee, said, we are talking about part of an overall picture of negotiations that the Prime Minister will have to undertake over the next few years when renegotiating our position on Europe. As many countries become closer in the eurozone, where will that put us? We must renegotiate.

Colleagues on the Government side of the House have a choice: we either support the Prime Minister or we do not. If colleagues are not prepared to support him, every time they go into a different Lobby from him, they weaken his negotiating hand in Europe. Please let us not accept the blandishments from some that the Prime Minister has a negotiating strategy that he is not willing to show us. I can assure the House that the Prime Minister is perfectly capable at the Dispatch Box of telling the House what he wants to do, what he wants to achieve and where he wants to be supported.

I was a Minister throughout every day of John Major’s Government, and I know just how much that Government were weakened by colleagues persistently going into the Division Lobby voting against the 1992-97 Conservative Government.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

My hon. Friend and the Front-Bench team have articulated the challenge of achieving even a settlement that allows for no increase other than one in line with inflation, and part of that challenge involves building a coalition. It would be completely counter-productive, having got the agreement of Germany, France and the Netherlands, to go back to those countries and say, “Actually, our Parliament’s changed its mind. We want a bit more”, and force their hand even further.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. It is time we started to be grown up. I am sorry if I sound like an old stager but, having lived through the Major years, I must say to my Conservative colleagues that we simply cannot carry on with the sort of self-indulgence that we see on the Order Paper today. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] No, no. We cannot continue with this self-indulgence.

The reason Blair was able to give away the rebate was largely because we lost the general election in 1997, and one reason we lost the general election was because the nation was not prepared to vote for a party and a Government that they saw as being deeply divided. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) might think that amusing, but I do not think that the country thought it amusing that the Labour party was in a position to give away a large part of this nation’s rebate.

The Conservative party has a responsibility to do the best it can for the country, and I have every confidence that the Prime Minister is seeking to do that. He has to renegotiate the whole of the UK’s position within the EU. That will take considerable tact and diplomacy, and he is entitled to consider that he has the support of Conservative Members when he does so.

[Dr Wollaston]

Does my hon. Friend accept that, although in the past the Conservative party was divided on Europe, it is now united? We are all opposed to the budget increase and want to strengthen the hand of the Prime Minister, whom I support absolutely?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

In all honesty, if the hon. Lady goes into a different Division Lobby from the Prime Minister this evening, she will not be helping the Prime Minister or our party. It is as simple as that. The Prime Minister has made it clear what he wants to achieve. If he achieves a freeze in the EU budget, he will have done something that no other Prime Minister has ever managed.

[Mr Burley]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

No, I am not going to give way.

All that happens on these Benches, whenever the Prime Minister says he is going to achieve something, is that those who are somewhat self-indulgent seek to set him an even higher hurdle—

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Sir Tony Baldry]

No, no. They seek to set him an even higher hurdle to jump over. It is unreasonable and unfair. If this party hopes to be in government after the next general election, it has got to get a grip and start supporting the Prime Minister.

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[Mr Leigh]

Let me first make one more comment to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury, who made a very important point. He represents the Anglican tendency in this House and I represent the Catholic tendency. If someone goes to confession and repents, we should accept them into our fold. We should not turn them away. If the Labour party has changed its mind, it has repented.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Sadly, I do not anticipate my hon. Friend ever repenting.

[Mr Leigh]

Well, there we are. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) said, I do not think that this manoeuvre is entirely cynical. We have come a long way—[Interruption.] People can scoff, but the Labour party is sensing a change of mood in the country. It is entitled as an Opposition party to sense that mood and to feel that the patience of the British people is at its limit as regards giving more money to the European Union. It might be cynical—surely Labour is entitled as an Opposition party to use parliamentary tactics if it wishes—but there might also have been a sea change in attitude in the country and in the House. That sea change is also reflected elsewhere in Europe.

The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) said that our proposal was totally unrealistic, but he should consider what is happening in our country. Every single Member of Parliament has police officers coming to all our surgeries every week whose pensions have been changed halfway through their time. They are serving shifts at all hours of the day and night, and they are coming to our surgeries because we are having to make real cuts to our police force. As has been said, we are having to make real cuts to our armed forces. Our own people are coming to us and saying that this is surely the time to make a stand. Given what is happening to the budgets in Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland, and given that great legions of young people in those countries are unemployed, is it so unreasonable just to ask the leaders of Europe to insist in the Council of Ministers on a real cash freeze? Is that unreasonable? I do not think so—I think it is entirely reasonable.

Our friends in Europe take the House of Commons very seriously. As is known, I am happy to be a Francophile and I watch what happens in the Assemblée Nationale. This debate could not be replicated there. It is being watched, however. This is the House of Commons. We were created to guard the nation’s finances and look after the interests of our own taxpayers. Why cannot the House of Commons, on this great occasion, make a stand on behalf of the UK taxpayers? Why can we not say to our taxpayers that we stand with them? We are having to make appallingly difficult decisions about the police, the armed forces, education and health. All we are saying is that there should be a real freeze in the EU. This is not just about EU civil servants, 40% of whom earn more than £70,000 a year.